Stephen Adeoye, CEO @ Beyond Education

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Stephen. Stephen, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Hello, hello, hello.

It's a pleasure to have you on, and you're the founder of Beyond Education. And before we get into your whole career journey, just for the viewers, what is Beyond Education?

Yes, um, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I really do appreciate it. Obviously you've been keeping up with your work for some time now now. And, um, yeah, it's just really cool to, to see all the cool things you're doing. So Beyond Education, where I guess when we're pitching and we're speaking to employers, we're a talent and employer branding agency. And our main aim with employers is to make them become the go-to choice for diverse talent. But if you flip it from a candidate perspective, what we're really trying to do is we're just trying to help a lot of diverse candidates and people of color and people from underrepresented backgrounds access career opportunities in a more easy way and kind of like limit the barriers that exist for them to actually get these opportunities. Um, so the way we, we essentially do that is we kind of have a bunch of social media accounts with my personality all over it, and I kind of use that to basically plug a lot of the employers that will— that we work with, and then basically provide career content and insight to help people like apply for these jobs and put their best foot forwards.

Love it. And if we, uh, start at the beginning of your career journey, studying, uh, finance at Northampton. What did you think that your career might pan out to be in the beginning?

So honestly, like, I— when I went to university, in college initially, like, I've— no one knows this to you, Tuff, and I haven't really said this to you, Tuff, but I actually wanted to be a musician. So I studied music technology. I've always had a music background, like I played piano in church, I sang. Um, and that's kind of what I wanted to get into. And I, I remember going to college doing music technology and it was just so flipping hard, um, very, very hard. And I was just like, yeah, this is dumb, like, I can't do this. And I remember like someone gave me a reality check, like, you can't go to university to study music, you're not going to make no money. It's either you're a musician or not. And then with that being said, I was like, okay, well, money is what I want to do. And I was kind of like, okay, cool, what can I study in university? And someone was like, banking and finance, they make a lot of money. So that's why I went to go study banking and finance. And, um, I got into university through clearing. I didn't really do well in like college, T-Tough. And my thought process was, okay, cool, I'm studying banking and finance. I wasn't thinking career-wise, but I was thinking, as long as studying— as I'm studying banking and finance, I will be fine. And that was as far as I thought. And I just thought to myself, you know, I'm gonna go to university and I'm gonna come out and I'm gonna get a job. But I didn't have any specific career in mind. I was just like, banking and finance, that's what I'm studying, so surely something will happen there.

I think that's a pretty common thing, right? People, uh, they're told, yeah, this is what you can do to make a career, this is what you can study at university. And then when you're there, you're actually confronted with, okay, I've not got any more clarity on, on what the next step is, but you've got to take one, you've got to step somewhere from university.

Yeah.

What was that next step for you and what, what informed that decision for you?

Yeah, so between first year and second year, they don't care about all of that. Like, as far as I was concerned, when third year comes, I'll cross that bridge. First year partying.

Yeah.

Second year I was like, okay, quite— I need to be serious with my work, my schoolwork. But again, not thinking about careers. And it was only in third year I was like, okay, well, I'm about to graduate now, I actually have to start thinking about careers. And my friend, he was the year above me, and, um, he had done, uh— can we mention company names? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So my friend, he had worked, um, in Enterprise Rent-A-Car, um, through their graduate scheme. And, um, he's someone that kind of looked up to as well. He got a first class as well. He went to— we went to the same uni. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna do. I'm gonna work at Enterprise Rent-A-Car like he did. Um, so I literally asked him for his CV, and I think the first half of third year I was like kind of playing about for a bit, but then after that got out of my system and I just like kind of buckled down. I asked him for a CV, tweaked my CV, and then I just started applying for jobs. But it was all like a— it wasn't an informed decision, honestly. It was just like an autopilot thing. It was like kind of common sense. I was like, well, university is about to be over now, I need to have a job, so I'm gonna apply for jobs. I wasn't really thinking, it wasn't strategic, like students in this day and age, they're like, they know they want to work in banking from like when they're in sixth form, you know what I mean? Whereas I wasn't thinking that. I was thinking I just need to come out of university with a job, and to do that I need to apply for jobs. That's as far as it went. So yeah, yeah.

And I think people will probably look at you online now and think like, oh, this guy's always had it figured out. If they look at your career journey, it seems like very linear and like, oh, and then he just became a founder. But for you, like, obviously you didn't have that career clarity in the beginning. When would you say you started like feeling like, okay, this is what I'm meant to be doing? Like, I'm starting to undersell— understand myself in a career sense.

That's a very good question. Hmm, I would say it was probably when I got my first corporate job. So throughout university, it was very much like an autopilot thing. I just need to get a job. However, to be fair, um, so I studied banking and finance. One of the modules in banking and finance in my third year was called corporate governance. Not to bore anyone with the details, but corporate governance is just about like compliance And on a high level, it's like interacting with C-suite executives to basically make decisions within a company. In my head, all I had was C-suite, make money. That's all I heard. So I was like, okay, cool. Although I'm kind of applying for a bunch of random jobs, kind of like maybe want to look for this corporate governance compliance thing to just see what it's about. And if I see that, I'll apply, because that means I might be a CEO. That's literally my thought process. So I kind of had a bit of clarity in that sense. And then I ended up starting my career in fintech, and I was working in the compliance department on a graduate scheme. So there was a bit of clarity there, but But I would say it was like until me actually getting stuck in that job, like stuck in, into the role, that's when I was like, oh yeah, okay, I kind of like this. This seems pretty interesting. And that was kind of where things started to kind of click. But I would say, I guess just quick segue in terms of advice, if you're in university at the moment, kind of like really look at some of the things you enjoy from your course content and try and see what translates into a career and go from there. 'Cause that's essentially what I did to kind of like just figure out what I wanted to do as a start.

Yeah, let's dig a little bit deeper into that then. Also, you've got a, a big student following and community now. I think it's easy to, you know, in this day and age of sort of gurus and everything, to prescribe like how you should go about a career, like do this and you'll make this much money. What's your advice from your experience on, on, on how students should actually like perceive their career going into their final year? Like, you know, how How would you like students to think about their career from an early age?

Yeah, so I would say like be open-minded and understand that yes, there's a lot of people being entrepreneurs and you might have aspirations of doing that, but as of right now, your job is just to get experience, right? And it's to get into somewhere and get experience and understand that as of right now, like without entrepreneurship stuff, like you your path is very much like, I want to work in corporate, or I want to have a job. And with that being said, you're going to be doing that for a long period of time, even though you might not be doing that, but that's just the mindset for now. So with that being said, if you're going to be doing this for a long period of time, let's say 20 to 30 years, it doesn't matter what you get into at the start because it's going to change. Like, it's literally going to change, like guaranteed. So it's just like having an open mind and just really following your curiosity and interest. So like I said earlier, like, you know, if there's something like in your course content that you're studying that you're like, oh, okay, that sounds pretty good, like actually let me look into that, then try that out. If it's a job description that you saw and you're like, oh, that I see myself doing that, just follow that rabbit hole because it's not the be-all and end-all. It's going to change eventually, um, over time. But your first step is like, okay, I actually want to get in and just get some level of experience. I think it's just about being— honestly, if I was to summarize it, just be open-minded.

I think one thing we really like to place emphasis on on this podcast is everyone feeling heard in the career sense. And with that being said, yeah, Everybody's going to have different sort of role models or people they relate to in a career sense. Who— when you think about, especially your younger self, who is a young Stephen? Like, what kind of person is he? And how did you actually draw, like, okay, I could be good at this in my career, from your natural self?

Wow, this is a serious podcast. This is good questions. Um, so younger Stephen, so Younger Stephen is a bit of a relationship person. Like, I just know how to like get along quite well with people, um, in the most like humblest way. I feel like I'm a very likable person, and I always knew that that's what was— I was gonna use and like play to my strengths. I think even in university, I mean, I graduated with a first-class degree in banking, but honestly, half of it was just me schmoozing my lecturers. Um, that's kind of how I've always been in that sense. So I very much thought to myself, that is what I'm going to take into anywhere I'm in, into the corporate world, even with clients. Like, honestly, I'll be schmoozing clients all the time. Like, that's just how I am, a bit charmer in that respect. And, um, yeah, because ultimately, like, people buy into people at the end of the day. Obviously, yes, like, be competent, have the relevant skill sets, be good at your job. But for me, like, younger Stephen was very much like, I'm going to leverage my relationships and my personality to try and, like, you know, make people like me. And, you know, being good at my job would just be a bonus.

Like, yeah, I think being a, being a schmoozer is an interesting one. I think there's a lot of things in careers that until you've applied it to careers, you don't know it's actually a useful skill at all. Like, when, when did you see like the first benefits of that personality?

Yeah, so I think from uni. So I remember like vividly, like I'm in my corporate governance module. I really like corporate governance and I liked my lecturer as well. What a— she's really great. Um, I— we had like a portion where we had to do like a group project and we have to do a presentation. And yes, I'm decent at coursework and whatnot, but I kid you not, I know the only reason why I got a first class in that project is because I just charmed my way in the presentation. I was making jokes, everyone was laughing, and I know like that literally equated for like half my mark. I did it again with like, um, the head of the faculty, um, Tambu. Love her to bits. She's the only reason that I actually passed university, in my opinion. And again, like, you know, I would, um, in third year I became really antisocial because the kind of person I am, I'm a bit binary in the sense that I was like, okay, cool, if I want to focus and get good grades, I need to cut everyone off. So that's what I did in third year. So the only friends I had were literally like my lecturers and a few handful of people. So after class, I'll just go to my lecturer's office and I'll sit down and I kind of just like talked to her. And then, you know, lecturers have this thing where they can't review your work beforehand. So I'll just bring out my laptop and kind of like talk her through it, like what I'm doing. So I think that's where I kind of initially started to see the benefits of like being a relationship-oriented person. So much so that when the grades came out, my lecturer called me first, like before everything was officially released. And that's just because of the relationship that I kind of built with her. So I very much thought to myself like, okay, this is something that I know is gonna translate into the working world. But I'd say that was the first time I was kind of really cognizant of it. Um, that, oh, this actually kind of works, like, you know, just being yourself kind of thing.

And a lot of your content now, you, you lean into, um, the stigma that comes around not going to, you know, a quote-unquote like Russell Group university. Did you feel that stigma when you were there? Were you even conscious that that might be something that could set you back?

Yeah, that's a good question. I literally did not think that. I literally didn't care. Like, I honestly, I'm so delusional, I just literally thought there's no way I'm going to pay 50K and not get a job. Simple as, like, that didn't make sense to me. So as far as I was— so to me, like, getting a job outside after uni, that was like— I was like, that's normal, that, that makes sense to me. I paid 50K, I did a good degree, like, I should get a job. So I think it wasn't until— to be honest, I only became cognizant of this whole non-Russell Group, Russell Group divide when I started, like, becoming, like, big on social media, um, specifically TikTok. So I remember, like, um, when I moved into private equity that's when like my TikTok arc began. Um, because again, you don't see a lot of people like me in private equity. Like, and I'm just like so authentically myself, sometimes to a detriment. I was going into the office with like Jordan 1s and just like looking real swaggy in an office where everyone's like flipping wearing suits and stuff. And I was the only Black person there. And then I was like showing this on TikTok, like, hey, I work in private equity. And everyone's like, no you don't, like, because you can't look like that working in private equity. And you know, people are stalkers as well. Like, people find out about you. So people started like doxing like where I work, talking about my uni, and they were like, no, there's no way you went to a non-Russian group. And then I was like, oh, this is actually a thing. So I started talking about it a bit more, and again, I was just trying to kind of like really like, um, eradicate the limiting belief that your background or where you come from can really hinder you getting a job. And even though that is the case, I try not to— my thing is I try not to like lean on that as an excuse, because my thing is that I've done it. So if I've done it, anyone can flip and do it. I'm cognizant of the fact that those barriers exist. However, what we're not going to do is use that as an excuse to go for things we want to go for. Because I've had people say, oh yeah, because I know it's a non-racial group, I might as well not apply. That's silly. You shouldn't do that. Yes, it exists, but we can get it, you know what I mean? We're just gonna have to work a bit harder. But I think it was when I really moved into private equity that I was really cognizant of the fact that, oh, there's actually a bit of a divide. There's some elitism and there's a bit of classism as well and stuff like that.

But yeah, I'm sensing a common theme here of like, you know, a level of delusional optimism that's always been there, and like just unapologetically being yourself. So authenticity, I think, and, and in this day and age, you're actually really highly rewarded for that in a career sense. Um, but obviously, you know, you've got that as a, as a natural form of self, but then there's probably been loads of things that you didn't have naturally, you've had to work on, especially as a founder, which, you know, having our conversation before, and you didn't necessarily see yourself as a founder.

Yeah.

How did you like I guess develop the self-awareness in a career to say, okay, this is what I'm good at, but this is what is going to actually like progress me, uh, you know, in my— and build my business and build my career?

Yeah, Peter, you're really good at this. I don't know if anyone saw— you should start a podcast. This is really good questions. Um, I would say— hmm, that's a very good question. Wow. So I think it's just about being honest with yourself, right? So I remember like when I moved into consulting Um, again, not to bore you guys with the technicals, but it was in compliance and investment operations. So a big part of what I did is I basically advised these like, um, individuals that would have left like banks to start their own funds. But in a bank you have all the infrastructure to set up like an investment fund. And when these bankers, when they leave, they're like, yeah, I should be able to set up a fund, but there's so much things to consider, like investment operations, compliance, all of that stuff. And essentially what I was doing as a consultant was advising them on how to do it and all the infrastructure they need. And that really gave me a taste of like, oh, this is a lot. Like, this is really interesting because on the one hand, the clients I was working with, they were the ones doing all the investments and doing all the technical stuff. Um, and then on the other hand, I was the person kind of advising them on how to set up the infrastructure to do it. But what I quickly got to see was I was like, hmm, I can't, I can't be a macro trader. Like, I don't understand that, you know, just kind of seeing it firsthand, seeing how hard it is, right? Um, But again, I very much was like, I don't want to try though. Do you know what I mean? So it was kind of like in that sense, that's where I kind of started to dibble and dabble and understand, okay, I'm good at this, I'm not good at that. Another thing as well, shout out to my colleague Sam in my first ever job. Sam is someone that can whip up a spreadsheet out of thin air and like macro. I'll tell Sam like, send me a client report. And next thing you know, he's built like some database of like SQL and all these things. And I would try to learn it and I just couldn't. And I very much like, I don't know, maybe I conceded defeat, but I was like, no, I have this relationship building thing, I'm good at that, so I'm gonna lean into that. So I think it was just more so being cognizant of like my strengths and things that came easier to me. And if I tried to like do something and it didn't come easy to me, I'm like, nah, maybe I shouldn't do it. So I think that's when I kind of started to realize, um, I hope that answers the question. But yeah, yeah.

And you, you spoke earlier on about how when you were in your private equity job, people sort of said, okay, you don't, you know, they couldn't believe that you'd end up there. And I think I think in culture people have seen the benefit of, you know, diversity and inclusion and, you know, the melting pot. Like, in London, you know, we live and breathe like the benefits of it. It seems to have been like a lag in terms of like businesses accepting the benefits that can have on your workforce, right? I know a big push of what Beyond Education does is to help bring diversity inclusion to the workplace, but in your words, why is it actually really important, you know, take away, you know, the business pitch? Why is diversity important, so important?

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I keep saying that a lot, say, but, um, I, I feel like initially when I started this business, honestly, it was not about diversity. It was literally just about helping graduates get jobs, period. And then as I kind of started to transition into like you know, kind of growing on socials, I was like, okay, there's a bit of a divide. Like, people that look like me— I think when I went into private equity and when I went into consulting, I was like, oh, people that look like me actually struggle to get these jobs. So then it became more of a transition into that. And I think more so the reason why is because, um, the reason why I felt like it was important is because why should I be the one Black person working in this private equity firm? That don't make sense to me. Like, that's, that's just really odd, you know. There should be more people in these industries, um, just from an equitable standpoint, you know. Forget, oh, it brings money into organization. I think there's a lot of like, um stuff that's kind of been displacing that as well in terms of diversity actually affecting the bottom line. So putting that aside, why shouldn't there be more Black people in organization? Why shouldn't there be more diverse people in organization? And the reason why I say that is because the society that we exist in is diverse. So we should have workforces that are reflective of the society that we exist in. And to me, it didn't make sense why that's not the case. And I think a lot of my Black counterparts and diverse talent, they would kind of put me on a pedestal like, wow, Steven is working directly. And I'm like, no, you can do it too. And I think for me, that was like really one of the main reasons. Like, you know, we should have this in the workforce because it's synonymous to how our society actually looks as well. And it's like, you know, when you kind of look at politics as well, for example, how is it that the politicians of the world that's actually governing our country, how are they not diverse? But yet they're supposed to run like an actual diverse society. That don't make sense to me. And I kind of see workforces in a similar sense as well. So yeah, that's kind of my thought process. You know, the workforce should just be diverse because that's how society looks. It's, it's equitable for more people that look like society to be in the workforce, essentially.

And not just the workforce and, you know, the government, as you alluded to, but also the founder space. Like, it's been, you know, typically it's been people with privilege who have benefited massively in entrepreneurship. And again, like, that isn't, you know, we're seeing the benefits now of more diverse founders coming through and like what that's able to bring And I think a lot, you know, I've had my own stigmas and things that have stopped me from becoming a founder in my life, even though I felt entrepreneur inclined. I know you said you weren't necessarily— you didn't feel like a founder from young, but it was more like you realized you could actually solve a problem through being one. So that somebody might be sitting there, they might be listening to this, and they're going like, okay, I think I might want to be a founder, but I don't see anyone doing it like me, or you know, I don't have someone fly my flag that makes it seem accessible. From your own personal self, what would you say about someone who is teetering on the edge of being a founder?

Mm, I think really assess your motivations for why you want to be a founder. I say this because I wouldn't wish, like, starting a business on my worst enemy. I genuinely think it's actually a very hard thing to do, in my opinion. And I think the story of me actually becoming a founder was more so from a place of, like, running away from something. I feel like sometimes you shouldn't really start a business because of that. So to give you a bit of context, what happened was when I moved into— so I was working in consulting and I was like, I kind of like what my clients are doing and they seem to be the ones making money, I want to do that. I moved into private equity and what I quickly came to realize is I took a pay cut and I went to do an internship just against private equity. And what I started to realize is that private equity is very, very hierarchical. You have to work your way up. There were people that were like 32 years of age that had left their 5-year consulting job just to do an internship, and they might not even like get a job after. And I kind of saw what my life would look like long term, and I was like, nah, don't want to do that no more. So I was like, okay, I've clearly made a wrong career move here. And, um, the difficulty was that I was— even though I was an intern, I still had to do like the 12-hour days. I still had to do the FaceTime. It was middle of COVID and I was going to the office 5 days a week because that's what you have to do. And I kind of started to lose sight of this passion project beyond education that I had started. So at that point was when I was like, you know what, I kind of want to start my own business. Like, I don't think I want to do this anymore. But it wasn't because, oh, there's a business that I want to start and I'm passionate about. It was because I don't want to do this, like, work that I'm doing anymore. But I thought to myself, I'm a bit scared, I don't want to do that yet. So I was like, let me go and find another job. And I moved into asset management, and the whole thought process there was, okay, I can move into a middle office role, I can get paid a lot of money, and I'm doing less work. But then I hit the barrier of, okay, this work is unfulfilling now. Now I don't like this. So at that point I was like, okay, I could either, like, keep on trying to find another career that I like or I could just start my own thing. And that's very much like, I think I just didn't have it in me to go and find another career, and I very much like went into starting my own business. Now I say this to say, my thought process was that, how hard is it going to be to start a business? Like, because in my head everything I've done up to this date has been very easy. Going to university and getting a first-class degree, all I have to do is study, you know. Working in the corporate world, once you kind of get your first bit of experience, you have a few recruiters on your contacts, you're good, you know what I mean. So in my head I was thinking that is the same attitude I was going to apply to entrepreneurship. And boy was I humbled. It was— it's flipping hard. It's still hard. So I say this to say, like, what you really want to, I guess, consider when you're kind of trying to get into entrepreneurship is, first of all, assess your motivation for doing it. Do you really want to go into entrepreneurship because you have a burning problem you want to solve and you feel like you're the right person to solve it? Yes? Then okay, cool, get one step closer to that. If you're just running away from something, I'd say no. And then the most— second most important thing which I think is very obvious. Have product-market fit, have paying customers. Do not start a business off the basis of, I'm just passionate about this, and yeah, like, you know, I want to do it, and people— don't fantasize or romanticize your idea. Have customers that are literally begging to buy your thing. Validate your idea in some way, shape, or form. So ideally, if it means working your 9-to-5 and starting this thing on the side and getting some traction there and getting paying customers, do that. And I say this as someone that didn't do that. So I think it's really important because I think entrepreneurship is really glamorized, and it's a lot harder than people make out to be.

But yeah, yeah, I think another thing that's, that's glamorized as well is in entrepreneurship is VC and private equity money sort of, um, overvaluing or like showing success when you haven't actually done anything as a business, right? And obviously with what you're doing, it's, it's bootstrapped. It's, uh, you know, you did have those paying customers beforehand, like you, you'd basically like de-risked it up to the point that, okay, then all you can do is actually try at that point. For you, why, why is it important, um, you know, digging a little bit deeper into what you're saying there, to, to really like try and do everything within your means without like money just being injected? How can that develop you as a founder before you just get allowed to skip a few steps without making the learnings?

Yeah, so I'd say just to clarify, I actually didn't even have any paying customers before I started. Again, I did it like the advice I'm giving right now is the opposite of what I did. So I very much just did it on a I'm tired of my career, I don't want to do this anymore. I— what I did do, which I think is sensible on my part, is I just saved up a bit of money. So I was like, okay, cool, I saved up money for about 6 months of expenses. And I was like, I have flipping 6 months to figure out like some sort of business. If this doesn't work in 6 months, then I'll figure out maybe going back to work. So I did that. But as far as like quitting with paying customers, I didn't really have that, you know what I mean? I think I made like £600, um, but that was kind of a little bit of validation in terms of what the business could be in that respect. But I think in hindsight, I feel like, yeah, anybody trying to get into this have paying customers, like get to the point where like your side hustle is just taking over your main, like your main source of income. Then it's like, okay, no, I actually have to leave. So I'd say that. But I think in terms of like, you know, um, kind of bootstrapping or making it very important to have paying customers and having traction is because you don't get sucked into this bubble of like, oh, if I have VC money or if I have a lot of cash, I can kind of like, I guess like, um, force having customers or force a market. Like, you know, it's very humbling when you have no money trying to like make a business work because you start to realize if there's actually legs for this business to stand on. Whereas that when you have cash and you have like all the money in the world kind of thing, you're not really resourceful or scrappy. Um, and it's kind of like you do a lot of these things that like may not even like make ROI, but it doesn't really matter because you have a lot of money kind of thing. Whereas like, you know, when I started this business, I had to like— and so this day, like, you know, we have to be really scrappy. And it's interesting, like, I haven't really disclosed this much, and this is something I really want to talk about, but right now the priority is getting my clients applications for their jobs. But I really want to talk about like the entrepreneurship side of things because when I started this business, I had a lot of early success and I had a lot of money very early. And I very much was like, oh, this is— I was like, yeah, come on, Stephen, of course you started a business, you're making flipping money. Like, it's you, like, you know, you've done this. And that made me like spend recklessly. I got a PA, I, I was outsourcing stuff because I was like, oh no, this is easy, like, right? And then what happened was, we were talking about earlier, the clientele that we're trying to sell to, there's one moment to unlock a budget, and then after that there's a bit of a drought. So then I wasn't making money anymore and I was like, oh my God, like, you know, what's going on, kind of thing. And, um, it— that lack made me a bit more, I guess, like, more resourceful in terms of how, like, I actually run the business, how I kind of get clients and stuff like that. So even though, like, yes, I made a lot of money, like, early on, kind of thing, because of, like, I didn't understand the nature of the market, I spent a lot of that money, there was no profit. Whereas, like, right now I'm in a point where it's like, okay, now, Stephen, you have to be a lot more financially prudent. We have to worry about cash cash flow. You have to be, as a CEO, it's like, and it's just not innate in my nature, but you have to be really strategic, right? I'm a very big picture, let's spend all the money we have on like this big marketing campaign and da da da, whereas like as a CEO you have to be very strategic about how you do certain things and being really prudent and be like, no, do we have to spend that money? Do we have to pay an influencer 5K for da da da? So it's like, yeah, not having cash and having lack of resources allows you to be a lot more resourceful and like, um, mindful about the way you kind of do certain things. And I think, yeah, the learning— the learning curve, honestly, that what I've learned in the last 2 years of running a business beats everything I've been taught in school, what I've learned like working for someone else, like in business. It's literally— it's ridiculous. I've learned so much about myself, about business, and I genuinely feel like, touch wood, if this business failed, if I was to go back to go and work for a company, I would literally be an asset. I genuinely feel like I probably want to take over the company with so much of the stuff that I know, and that's just because of this experience so far.

Yeah, and you mentioned that about, you know, being more strategic and building your business. I think the same can be applied to careers, right? And, and, and more specifically, um, let's take you for example. You're a natural schmoozer, but how can you, how can you, uh, actually be strategic about who you're schmoozing? Or how can you actually like develop that storytelling ability, for example. So what would you say is some advice for, for people to, to find what they're good at, lean on it, and then actually apply it strategically in building their career?

Yeah, so it's just about— so I feel like schmoozing is what I'm good at, apparently. Um, so I just lean into that. But you could be good at other things, for example. So you could be someone that like is really, really technical. You know how to basically derive conclusions from data. I'm using a very wry example, but you, you may be able to derive conclusions from data. So like, you know, you could use that to be able to tell stories, um, for people, or like, you know, derive like outputs for people. So let's say like if you're in work now, for example, and your manager just had all this information that needed to be synthesized into something that's actually useful, you could do that. And that could be the way that you basically provide value to your manager in some way, shape, or form. One thing that I do recently as well— so obviously I'm a bit of a, a LinkedIn connoisseur, so I've been writing a lot of LinkedIn posts and whatnot. Whenever I engage with founders that I'm trying to get to mentor me or something, off the back of our conversation, I will literally give them like LinkedIn prompts, and I'll literally write out like the synopsis of like a couple LinkedIn posts and send it to them to be like, oh yeah, by the way, like you should— because I'm trying to get everyone to post on LinkedIn, so I'd be like, by the way, you should totally post on LinkedIn, here's a couple of ideas. So I do little things like that. So it's just about finding what comes natural to you and then basically leaning into it and seeing how it can be of value to someone else that you're trying to get something from. Do you know what I mean? Um, so let's say for example if you're a student, you were trying to get into like, um, the finance space, right? Or you're trying to get into investment banking and you wanted to reach out to like MDs or like associates in investment banking. Look at the markets, see what deals are happening, and then give them like a flipping report and like, oh yeah, by the way, like, you know, you guys should totally look at these deals and that deals and that deals. Plus I love to speak to you about, you know what I mean? Try and find a way to basically like leverage providing value before asking for value.

But yeah, yeah, we've gone too long on this conversation without talking about LinkedIn, you know. Yeah, that's why we're here in this room. You've obviously grown a, you know, a big following on there. And tell me about your first impressions of the platform, um, because I think a lot of people think, what is this? And then actually how you've learned what a superpower it can be in building a career or business.

Yeah, honestly, like I told you earlier, I am authentically myself, sometimes to my detriment. I need to do this. But if you see what I was posting on LinkedIn 5 years ago, I used to treat LinkedIn like an Instagram page. Like, I, I used to—

like, especially 5 years ago, that would have been wild.

Yeah, like, I would— like, whatever I posted on my story on Instagram is what I would post on LinkedIn. Like, I literally need to, like, show it. Like, I was posting, like, just reckless stuff. Like, and even when I was at work, like, imagine, like, my, my MD of my department, I would, like, literally be, like, filming him on Snapchat, putting filters on his face, and he'd be like, stop, you can't do that. And I'm like, why? Why? Like, literally, that's what I used to do. Now I post it on LinkedIn. And I remember one an MD came to me and said, Stephen, you know, you can't— I think I must have like— I'm such a rebel. Like, in the office on dress-down Fridays, you know, dress-down Fridays is just don't wear a tie. I would wear the most loudest outfits because I'm like, this is how I dress, this is my dress-down. And I would take a picture and I'd post on LinkedIn and I'd be like, yeah, I've got drip. And like, the MD was like, Stephen, you can't post stuff like that, you work for a very like established organization. And I'm like, why? That's literally how I was. And, um, I very much carry that attitude now. The brand's a bit more refined, but I'm still very much like myself, you know. Um, but I think LinkedIn is powerful in the sense that I personally feel like the organic reach that you get from LinkedIn is just second to none. I feel like it's great for just top of funnel awareness in terms of like bringing like traction to just who you are as a person. And, um, yeah, like, you know, it's the essence of like how we're able to get clients for the business. It's the essence of how we're able to get people to apply for jobs, um, in one way, shape, or form. People that apply for jobs on our site has probably seen my LinkedIn or seen my team member Stephanie's LinkedIn. I always call her my twin. Shout out Stephanie. Um, and yeah, you know, even her as well. Like, last year she had like 28 followers on LinkedIn. She was like, Stephen, I'm private, I don't want to do that, I don't want to post. For a lot of convincing, now Stephanie has like 11K followers on LinkedIn in just a year, you know. So yeah, LinkedIn is very powerful to just like really build a brand. And I think we were kind of talking about this earlier, about how you get guests on the, the podcast, you know, your brand kind of helps in a certain way. So even like when people see that you have a huge following or like you post frequently, when you send a message, they're like, oh, okay, like, like, let me actually reply to this person because it seems like they're legit. So So it's a very powerful tool in my opinion, and it's useful to kind of, um, guess, guess what you want from either business or career.

I think you're probably a little bit of an anomaly in a— as an early start on LinkedIn, you were just always authentic and like just put out what you think. I think a lot of people are scared to do that. Yeah, because it is a professional platform. But what would you say to someone, uh, like a student who, who know they can see the power of it? Maybe they've seen a friend who's built a brand and then landed a great job from it. How can you convince them to just actually be their fullest self? Because that's ultimately what you get rewarded for, right?

So I would say like start small. Um, so not to get too technical, but like, you know, just update your profile with like a nice picture and optimize like your profile to say something along the lines of what you're really interested in, so that when you are reaching out to people, it's not just like no picture, some next weird looking page, like with nothing, you know. So I think that's like a good start. And then rather than thinking, okay, you know what, I need to post engage, you know, posts like from people you like or that you find interesting. Leave a thoughtful comment because that also travels on people's feeds as well. And then what happens is that when you do reach out to people again, your profile is starting to look more legitimate. And, um, I guess that can incite people to want to actually respond because you're actually an active participant on the platform. And I'd say that as a first point. The thing is, once you get deep into that, all of a sudden it's a thing of like, oh, I like this person, actually I have perspective on this person. And then you actually want to get to the point of posting. I feel like as a starting point, start really small, optimize your profile, and just start engaging LinkedIn and go from there. And I guarantee you, you would get more benefit from what LinkedIn is actually for than being this big time— I think people really glamorize it and put it on a pedestal, like, oh, like, you know, I have to be a big time influencer and content creator, when it's literally not that deep. Like, there's a lot of us that have Finsta accounts. We don't post, or we don't post on them, but we're just like, you know, preying and commenting here and there. You could literally do that on LinkedIn and you would get the benefits of what you want.

So yeah, my final question to you and I ask this question to every single one of my guests, is that when you first started off in your career journey, you would have a certain idea of what success would go on to look like. Fast forward with everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Um, well, this is some deep stuff, man. Um, definition of success. I would say, and this is my honest answer, I would say success is, is, is really what— it's success is what you make it, and it's what's ultimately unique to you, and it's something that's not, um, binary or like stagnant. It's constantly being defined as you kind of like journey through, through life. Um, And because at one portion of my life I very much thought success would be I get this job and I'm happy and I'm making a lot of money. I had that, and all of a sudden it's like, no, I don't want that because I'm not fulfilled. And I was like, I'm gonna— I want a business. Like, if I have a business, I'm gonna be so happy. Now I have a business and I'm like, oh wow, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. And there's certain parts where I'm like, oh, you know, I'm successful, but it's like I'm still on this journey. So I think it's something that's constantly defined and it just evolves as you kind of go through the journey of life. So yeah, that's, that's my definition of success.

Stephen, you've been great. Thanks so much for coming on, mate.

Thank you.