Steve Duke, Head of Marketing @ Wayflyer

Steve, welcome to the podcast. If you could just, uh, start off by giving us a quick run-through of your career journey so far.

Sure, so I'll give you the highlight reel. So I studied engineering, mechanical engineering, in Dublin at UCD, and then I went straight into McKinsey because I didn't really have much of an idea of what I wanted to do, but McKinsey seemed cool at the time. So I went into that and was there for a few years, and then by 24 I had actually left McKinsey and I went to a startup. So I went to a health tech startup, and I was head of marketing there and actually helped grow that into a unicorn. And then I decided I wanted to move to Australia, so I moved away from Dublin, came all the way out here to Sydney, and wanted to do the whole startup life again. So I really liked that, and so I did. So I went back, joined another startup. I was like the 7th employee and, um, was head of marketing and growth there and helped grow that into another unicorn and like over 500 people. So it was like this crazy crazy ride. And then personally, it was great. So by 27, like, I was an exec at that company, and we kind of achieved this, like, $1.6 billion valuation. And so, yeah, it was— that was amazing. So I've kind of had this mix of, like, McKinsey and then startups. But then kind of about a year ago, that all changed, and I kind of took a shift and started to do something different, which I can talk about as well, if that's helpful.

Yeah, of course. Well, let's, uh, let's focus on what you're up to right now, which is, um, well, you've done the Two Roads podcast, and, um, and with the Two Roads podcast comes a, a course which you've been working on, um, and compiling all the, the value and, uh, and lessons that you've learned from interviewing these amazing people, um, and that's called the Divergence Program. So if you could just tell us a little bit more about that and why you've got to have it this route.

Yeah, 100%. So I built the Divergence program to help people actually figure out what career is best for them. And the reason I built it was because I kind of wish that I had had this for myself, like, many years ago. So when I was in school, when I was in uni, I'd gone to see guidance counselors or talk to these kinds of people, and honestly, they were all useless. They never gave me any helpful insights to actually figure out what it is that I wanted to do. So I was completely on my own trying to figure this out. And what I realized is it's really important. It's really important what you do for your job. You're going to spend 90,000 hours of your life at work, right? It's a really long time. And there's some stats about how many people actually like their job and don't. And so it's like two-thirds of people in the US don't like their job, and 15% of it actually, like, despise what they do for work. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, this is absolutely ridiculous that so many people don't like what they do. And I think one of the main reasons is because, like, people don't know how to figure out what it is that they want to do, what they're good at, and, like, what fits in with their life. And so that's why I wanted to build this program. And I'd also realized just from, like, talking to friends and stuff, I had so many friends who were like other students who are in their 20s who are like either coming out of college or already in a graduate role who are like, is this it? Like, is this just what I'm going to do for the rest of my life now? Like, I kind of thought I was going to do something more meaningful that made me more satisfied. And so there's a lot of people just like stuck and they know where to go. So they know, they know like process to actually figure out what it is that they want to do and to kind of take take you back to my journey. So when I left the last startup a year ago, I took some time off. I bought a Jeep Wrangler, converted it, and drove across Australia living out of it for like 4 months. And for me, this was the time to figure out what I wanted to actually do. And I kind of found like a process that works. So I read like a shit ton of books, I like listened to all the podcasts, like, you know, talk to a ton of people, everything. And from that I figured out actually there's like, like anything, there is a framework, there is a process that you can use to figure out what type of career that you want to do. And so I was like, okay, I'd done it for myself. I was like, I think a lot of people would find this really helpful. Why don't I package this up and make it available to other people so they can do the same thing?

Yeah. And obviously your own journey and your own learnings is Yeah, mate, is a big reason why the program would stand out and why people would be curious in taking it. But what would you really like for the people who take your course to feel and have learned coming out of the back of it?

I think there's two things. So one is when you're thinking about what you want to do with your career, that's like a really agonizing, anxiety-provoking kind of thought. And I was stuck in that for a really long time. So you're just like, what should I do? What should I do? It's always on the back of your mind. You're at work, you kind of know it's not for you. You got all these questions. You're going on holidays and you're like, I should really make a change, but I don't know what it is I want to do. Or if you're a student, you're trying to figure all this out and everyone's asking you, what are you going to do when you graduate? And you don't know. And so I think the first thing that I would hope for people to get from this course is like clarity on what they want to do and get rid of that feeling of anxiety and agonizing over trying to make this decision. And then I think the second thing is, is like you leave with this like toolkit where you realize that, hey, look, I might do something and I might do it for the next few years, but the reality is that I'm going to change what I do over the course of my life, over the course of my career. Like, I'm like, no, but pretty much nobody like goes into a job now at like 22 and sits there until like they're 62. Like, that doesn't happen anymore. And so that you need to be able to like constantly evolve and like switch things up and figure out like what's the next iteration of it for you. And so like the course will give you like the clarity for now, then also like gives you like a toolkit so you can figure out, okay, well, if in 6, if in 12 months time, if in 24 months time I need to shift things or move them a little bit. I now have the toolkit to realize how I can do that and I don't have to go back to the drawing board. And so those would be kind of like the two things that I would hope people would take away from the course.

Yeah. And an announcement here is that we're actually teaming up together to sort of tailor this not to be just people looking to change their career, but also to help students be a bit more proactive in finding something they want from the get-go. Not that they'll have all the answers, but that lack of awareness and that similar mission that we're trying to do with helping people understand there's not just one way to do your career, there's not just one great company to get employed by after university. And yeah, I mean, obviously I feel like Divergence, the name Divergence, it sort of implies that your career can take those— it can split off into two different roads, and just because you've taken one doesn't mean you can't go back to another or explore other roads. And I wonder what learnings you've made from your own career and doing this podcast and doing your course that you wish that you would have been able to implement at a younger age? So, you know, advice for students on why thinking about these things a few years before they actually happen is a beneficial thing.

Yeah, yeah. I think I used to have this belief, right, that I would just like pick my, pick my job, pick my career, what it is that I wanted to do. And so when I was a student, this is McKinsey, and then I would like fit my life in around that. So most important thing was job. I'd go and be a McKinsey consultant and and then I'd figure out all the things that I would do for hobbies or where I would live or relationships and all that sort of stuff. I would then fit around my job, and that's like the complete backwards way to do it, right? This may sound super obvious, but don't choose your job and then fit your life around that. Choose the life that you want to live first and then choose your job and career that goes into that. Now, I know that might sound a bit like woo woo or whatever, but That's the biggest thing that I wish I had known. And that requires you to kind of be honest with yourself, do a bit of self-reflection and figure out what's important to you from a life perspective. This is actually one of the things that I do in the course is this concept of a life view. So basically get people to think about what does a good life mean to you? What's the role of work within that life? Do you want to be you know, is work like super something that's really super important and at the core of what you want to do for a living? And if that's the case, like, you know, then maybe you do want to be working long hours or, you know, or prioritizing work. But for a lot of people, it's not. For a lot of people, like, actually the most important thing is, you know, maybe what they— their friends or their family or like their relationship or, or a certain hobby that they have that they're really into. And so like, you need to make sure that if you pick your life, the life that you want to live first, then you can pick a career and a job that's not in conflict with that. Because a lot of time what happens is you get this conflict. This is happening to me, right? I didn't know this at the time, but where I derive a lot of sense of meaning and life and joy from my life is the things that I do outside of work, right? Specifically, like hobbies. I love playing rugby. I love going surfing. I love being able to go camping at the weekends. I love just being able to hang out with friends and go for dinner on a midweek, on a Tuesday. Day, whatever. That's where I derive a lot of, like, value and satisfaction. And then I chose a job at McKinsey that, like, I would fly out of Dublin Airport at, like, 5 AM on a Monday morning, and I wouldn't be back in Dublin until, like, 11 PM on a Thursday night. So, like, I couldn't do any of those things. Like, it just— so you've got this, like, big conflict between, like, what you do and where you want to derive value from. Um, and that's obviously not a good formula. So I think that would be one. I've probably got others, but that would be, like, one meta point that I think people should you should try and think about. I think it is a little bit hard, right, when you're at that stage. But if you can think about that and then fit a career into the life you want to live rather than the other way around, it's a better formula for success.

Yeah, I think this all comes under the sort of the word of feeling fulfilled, and it's a really hard thing to try and achieve at university. It's something I struggle with as well, where there's a lot of sort of going with the flow and, you know, it's not really real life, is it? University, it's, uh, there's no structure to it, there's no accountability, there's no one telling you what you should and shouldn't do. And I think that when that is present, you know, in the schooling system and then you just get suddenly dropped by yourself, I think a lot of people just decide to go with what everyone else is doing and follow the crowd, and because it's easier, and you don't necessarily do hobbies or passions because you want to, but more because, you know, everyone else is. I've got to meet everyone else, I've got to drink with everyone else. And I think, yeah, it's probably not as obvious until after university that you weren't as happy as you could be when you have those passions in your life. So you know, if we, if we talk about this in a sort of more career-oriented sense, how important do you think it is for that job to also be a passion of yours? Like, can you purely get by by just being able to give yourself time to do things you're passionate outside of, or is it important for both to, you know, complement each other?

Yeah, it's, um, this is actually a tough question, and, and, and, and I'm split on this one, right? So, well, here's what I think. I don't think you have to be passionate about what you do. Right. And there's actually a lot of research and data that will suggest that. I think you need to come back to what we were talking about earlier. The important thing is to figure out for you what that is. I have met people who do a job that they're not passionate about. It's not in the areas that they're interested in at all. But the kind of view that they have on the world is that, look, work isn't supposed to be the place where I, like, express and follow my passions. And that's okay, right? I have other people who, like, you know, other friends who, who that's not the case for. Like, their view on life is that actually work really is about, like, doing something that I'm passionate about. And so for them, then, you know, they're the type of people that really do need to be in a work that they, that they care about. And I think the most important thing is to find out what it is, what that is for you. Are you the type of person who actually really needs that thing that you're passionate about to be your work or not. But I think there's a lot of pressure put on people to do something that they're really passionate about. And I don't think that pressure should be there. I think people should feel free to do something they're not passionate about and that that's okay. And that they can follow those passions outside of work. And also, the kind of data suggests that it's not that important. There's other things that are more important in terms of having a satisfying job. And the interesting thing as well is like about what passion actually means or like the role of it. So often, or how passion like develops. So sometimes what happens is rather than passion coming first and then we going into a job because of that and then us becoming good at it and enjoying it, oftentimes it happens the other way around. So we go into a job and if we just find it like interesting, right? Maybe we're not like passionate about like the cause. We're like, huh, interesting, and then we start to get good at it, and it's aligned with our natural strengths. And then after maybe a year or two or a couple more, we're like really good at it, right? Then often the passion comes at the end because we're really good at this thing, and like we've kind of gotten ourselves into it, and we know a lot about it, and you know, it's aligned with our strengths. And so often like passion can like develop. It doesn't need to be this like innate thing where it's just like, I'm really passionate about the environment, so like I have to go and work in like 'Hey, some sort of climate change company.' It can often happen the other way around, which is not many people think of it.

I think one thing that can happen as well, which I want to touch on and see if you have any advice on potentially how you can avoid the situation, is finding a passion and then letting a manager or someone else in the company or just the wrong situation strip that from you? Um, and you know, that doesn't, you know, necessarily mean, okay, I'm in a company and I'm— I know that I enjoy, let's say, marketing, but I'm not enjoying how they're letting me do marketing. How do you like have the wherewithal, um, within a job to try and like really just do it for yourself? And maybe it's things outside the job, like What are some important things for people to, to keep doing and remind themselves? Say you were at McKinsey, but then you went into the startup world. There must have been some overlap or something in your brain that was like, okay, there's cool things I'm doing in McKinsey, but I want to see how that might play out with a little bit more empowerment in a startup situation.

Yeah, yeah. Um, So, so what exactly is the question? So it's like, how can you— how can you— like, if you're in that situation where you've got kind of got a manager who's not letting you, like, you know, do things the way you want to do, or is it more kind of around, like, um, how do I think about, like, kind of my move, you know?

Yeah, no, I, I think— well, let's take one at a time because I think they're both important things to touch on. But yeah, to start with, it's like maybe the whole point of a management or a company that's maybe not letting you embrace that passion the way you want to. How do you deal with that situation?

Yeah, I think that's tough. First of all, I think, do you know what? I think there's a healthy bit of just understanding actually how far you can push it. Right. So I think when we kind of first in our first jobs, like in the first year or two, we kind of think think, like, the manager and, like, the company, like, they just say exactly what we have to do, and then we have to, like, toe the line. And I think the reality is you can actually be a bit more rebellious than you think. Like, no one's gonna fire you, you know, for, like, pushing the boat, like, a little bit further than they may want you to. So that would be the first thing. I think if you've got a manager who's always saying, like, hey, no, like, you have to do it this way, and you're like, but, like, that's that's stupid. That's not the way I want to do it. Understand where they're coming from. Maybe they have a really legitimate point that they're right. But if you don't think they're right, maybe push it a little bit and say, well, okay, fine, but why don't I— let me go off and do this anyway, right? I'll do it your way first, but on the side of my table, I'm going to do it my way, and I'm going to come back and just show you just to see, hey, look, This is what we could do. Like, what do you think about this? Like, you know, I've done it your way, so like, don't worry about that. I've got that done. But like, I'm kind of going to push the boat a bit and like show you, maybe be a bit provocative and, and see what you think, right? So I think you have a lot more room to actually like follow your passions within work than like we think when we start. And you'll see this, right? So if you see like when— if, if I'm working, or if I remember like when I was like just a fresh graduate Like everyone's like real buttoned up and like they kind of like align themselves really well to like whatever the culture is in that work and they don't want to step out of line. And then the older and older you get and the more experience you get, like you'll see people doing like crazy shit that you would think that as a graduate you're like, if I did that I would get fired, you know. But actually you have a lot more freedom than you probably think when you first join and you can explore that freedom and that can help you get away from those, like, you know, conflicts if you're not able to, like, follow your— do stuff the way that you want to do.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And, uh, I guess going on to, on to the next point, it just, you know, making that move from corporate to startup like you did. I mean, there's all this sort of debate that goes on in, say, students' head about, you know, maybe the the reliability and the exits that come with a corporate career, at least to begin with. And then on the startup side, yeah, maybe have a bit more empowerment, but you don't even know if the company is going to go bust in a month's time of working there, or you can't predict what your actual workday is going to look like, how to benchmark achievements or success within it. You know, there's so many different things. To consider when, when making that first step. I mean, yeah, what's your, your experience, uh, and advice to anybody, uh, trying to make that decision right now?

So I think the number one thing that you have to optimize for, for like your first role out of uni is your ability to learn. And so is this an environment where you have the exposure to things that you can learn from? Are you going to have a manager who's going to spend time with you and coach you and develop you? Are you going to have like the culture within the organization that's going to invest in you and actually focus on giving you more skills and improving you? And that can happen at a, you know, large corporate or it can happen at a startup. But what you— the first thing you need to evaluate if you're looking at either option is how good is this company going to be at helping me to learn and helping me to develop, right? And so if you look at both corporate and startups, they're going to have like different profiles for that. So what I would say is you look at corporates, pretty much all of them will do good job at this, right? There's a lot less variability because they're all going to have like actual graduate schemes and, you know, they're big enough that they'll be able to focus on this kind of thing and they'll have the systems in place. But then startups, you're taking more risk when it comes to like their ability to do it because sometimes they might have the resources, sometimes they won't. But what I would say is the variability is much higher, which means that if you get a great startup, you're going to be way higher than like, you know, a, a good corporate in terms of like your ability to learn. So what you need to do is, if you're going down the startup route though, you need to be way more— do a lot more diligence on them because you don't have this assurance that they're going to fit within like the kind of corporate bracket. So if you're going in there, I would say if you're considering it, you ask a shit ton more questions, really figure out what they're like, who exactly you're going to be working with. Like, not all startups are the same. I think that's like a really big thing to notice as well. Everything gets thrown into this like startup bucket. It's like once it's not a corporate, it's a startup. And but there's a huge difference between a seed stage start— seed stage startup and a Series C startup. A seed startup that actually could go bust within a year. A Series C startup, it's very unlikely that that's going to go bust within a year. And they're going to have way more of those like systems in place at that time. They're a way more mature company. And so you can't treat them all the same. Like you have to look at them very, very differently, right? Um, the, the one thing I would say is like, if you get in, you know, I think actually, like, there, there's a lot of cases to be made for like good corporates. Like, if you can get in there, if they've got good graduate programs, especially like, you know, the McKinseys of this world, right? And if you're at that, I'll be honest, if you're at that level, it's an amazing place to start your career because that learning environment is just so incredible. And you'll build this incredible toolkit even if you want to do startups, like do a couple of years there and then get out. But the great thing about startups is if you're like a worker and you think you can produce results, the acceleration that you can get within a startup is like way higher. You won't have to wait for these, like, okay, after 2 years you get promoted, after another 2 years you get promoted to a manager or whatever else. That doesn't happen in startups. If you're good and you go in and you produce results, you just get jobs. I've seen this all the time, like young guys, young girls getting like ridiculous jobs super early in their career. But you have to perform, right? There's a lot more focus on performance. And like, if you go in and like you're shit, like it's more likely you're going to get kicked out.

And when you went on to then start your own thing or, or just find out what you were truly passionate about, and you said a year out Did you feel like when you were in startups, this idea that, oh, maybe I, I could do this myself? Like, you know, I think somebody in a startup, I, they probably tarnish with a brush of like, oh, they must be a bit more entrepreneurially minded. But I don't think that's necessarily true. There are people that could be equally as corporate in terms of, I like working for other people and being part of a team And then there are also people within a startup that could be like, oh, I want something of my own, I want to build something. Identifying that in yourself, I think, is really important. Like, and something I've been trying to do from early ages is what position within a team do you like being? Like, you know, do you like being the leader or do you like following the instructions? What's your, uh, sort of experience with that been?

Yeah, so this is really tough, like, actually to figure out, I think. Um, there was a point, like, when I probably— when I just left McKinsey, where I thought my path was going to be, right, I'm going to do a few years here at this startup, I'm going to, like, learn the ropes about what it's like to run a startup. I was working super closely, like, with the founders, um, and so I was like, I'll do that, and then in a few years I'm going to get out, I'm going to start my own I'm going to raise venture capital money, you know, and I'm going to be the next, you know, superstar, Brian Chesky, like founder of Airbnb, whatever else it is. And then when I started to see what it actually looked like over time, I was like, this is not for me, actually. This is not the kind of role that I want to have. And the tough thing about that is like it required me to be really honest with myself because the reality is like my ego wanted the other thing. My ego wanted to be like the venture-backed, like, really successful founder. But then when I was really honest with myself, I would look at the life of like the founders that I work closely with, and I was like, is this what you actually want? And the answer for me was no. Like, I, you know, I would work with these guys and they were just like, there's like work all the time, like all the time, all the, all the time. Like, you know, they'd have both of the vendors that I worked with, like, during it, like, they had and, you know, they had kids, like, with their partners, like, young kids. They had a new baby, and then, like, they'd be away on holidays, like, a month after having, like, a new baby, like, to just, like, relax with their partner and their new kid. And then they'd be on the phone to me on, like, a Sunday afternoon, and I was like, has your holiday been? And they're like, what holiday? Like, I have just been working all the time. And I'm like, fuck that. I do not want that with my life. Like, that is not the life I want to live. You know. So, um, and that's— it's a little bit hard, right, when you have to let go of something that, like, you've wanted for a while because it kind of gets built into, like, your ego as well. Um, and then also being honest with yourself about other, other things, right? So in my last job, I was, like, head of a department, so I was, like, managing, like, a lot of people, like, underneath me. And I realized actually Managing really large teams is something that I don't particularly enjoy, right?

Like, yeah, you actually stopped doing the job that you were good at before. Like, sometimes with being promoted to a manager, it's like, oh, well done, like, you got this new management role, you know, great. But then you don't actually realize the consequences of what that does to your day-to-day.

100%. 100%. I think you've nailed it. Um, and the problem is, if you're an ambitious person, right? If you're like a high achiever, when you look at, like, okay, how do I progress? It usually looks like getting promoted into managerial or leadership roles. And most of the time that comes with managing people. And so you just accept it. You just say, like, oh, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go and manage people now. But very few people ask the questions, like, well, would I enjoy that? Like, am I going to enjoy what my day-to-day looks like when I get promoted. And yeah, I stopped, you know, I did less and less of like the job and like more and more of managing the people. And like, that's what you have to do, right, if you're like a people leader. But I realized like I didn't enjoy like managing such large teams like that. Like, I found it quite, quite drained. Like, if I looked at my week, right, so like one of the biggest things I do is like And it is kind of within the course as well. It's like, if you think about your job and like, okay, would I like this job or that job? A lot of the times you just think of it on this, on like the high level of like the role, the company, whatever. But what actually matters is how are you going to spend your time? Like, if you look at a given week, like, what is your— what are your hours spent doing? What are those activities? And do you enjoy those or not? Like, do you find them engaging? And when I look at what my week looks like when I'm managing large teams, it's a lot of time just like talking to other people, like, you know, on one-to-ones. Like, yes, you're managing your own team, but you're also managing up. You're managing like, I was reporting to CEO, so it's like I'm managing him. I'm also managing horizontally. So like all of my peers who are in the other departments, you need to maintain relationships with them. And so my week looked like just a shit ton of one-to-ones, like talking and like managing people. And I don't like that. I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. I find it very draining.

It's interesting because if you look at, um, say, a top talent, uh, in on, on YouTube or in a creative space, they get really good and really big really quick, and they hire a manager for them because, you know, I And when you look at maybe a bit more industry-based things, you know, again, the corporate, the startups, it's strange that same thing doesn't almost apply where like if you've grown the company or been recognized for doing something really well, you know, why would you then want to, you know, maybe give them a management role? You'd almost want to manage them, you know, make sure that they have the most time to just keep excelling what they're excelling at.

For sure, for sure. I think companies are starting to realize this a bit more, especially within disciplines like engineering or design or these kind of things. So they have like two tracks, right? So you have like a managerial leadership track, which you can go if you want to manage people. Then they also have individual contributor tracks where they're like, hey, look, you can continue to just like continue to get promoted, right? Because the problem is they don't want to cap people out. And you don't want to just get to here and then say, well, okay, you're an individual contributor, but that means you're never going to get promoted again. So you're like, well, fuck this. Like, what am I doing? Like, and so they have more and more, I think, especially at startups, like these better individual contributor tracks where you can have like really senior people who are like excellent at what they do, but they're just like, I don't want to manage people. And they're like, that's fine, do your thing.

This interests me though, why, you know, we're having this conversation and we're discussing like pretty important things to your well-being, your lifestyle, your future. But then it is— you just don't talk or hear about this at university. It's just not something that comes up. And I've been, you know, obviously in the space that I'm in, I've really been trying to work out why careers is such a taboo subject almost, you know, with your mates in the smoking area when you're out having a bit— like, people don't talk about their careers, even though when I'm speaking to someone nowadays especially, like, I don't think there's anything more interesting or telling of somebody's energy or personality than hearing about what they do on a day-to-day basis. And, you know, it's almost like, you know, I know a similar thing with what you're doing with your podcast is really trying to humanize people and, and, and take their CV or their LinkedIn or whatever and show that they're just normal people as well, that, you know, like to have fun as well. Yeah, I just don't know, do you have sort of any opinions on why that might even happen within education systems or at university or whatever, that it just— careers, at least for the first 2 years of university, just gets lost in terms of the criteria of importance?

Yeah, it's— I don't, I don't really know, um, to be honest with you. I like, I put up a post this week on LinkedIn where I was kind of like, here's how I thought my career would go versus here how it actually went. Right. And there was nothing crazy in there. And then I got a comment on it yesterday, which was like, Steve, thanks so much for your vulnerability and sharing. It's obviously a nice comment, but I was like, vulnerability? I was like, I didn't think I was being that vulnerable. This is just like what happened. But obviously some people are like, oh my God, you're being open about you know, how you thought about your career and at different points, like, you were agonizing over what you were going to do next. And maybe it's because I kind of talk about this a lot now, but I was like, this isn't— this— I don't think it's me being vulnerable. I think this is me just being completely normal and talking about what it's like to try and go through a process of figuring out what you want to do. Like, I think absolutely everybody goes through this, so like, I don't think it's weird at all that I'm talking about it. In terms of the education system in particular, I'm not really sure, but I think it's a real shame, right? Because university serves a few purposes, but one of the main ones is to set people up to try and get into a career that they're going to enjoy and find meaningful. And so there has to be a bigger focus on it. I just think it's so unfair that you just come, you do your 4-year uni degree, and then they chuck you out at the far side of it, and it's like, okay, go go swim in the world now, like, figure it out for yourself. It's like, I kind of thought this is what you were going to help me with when I came in here 4 years ago.

Okay, well, you know, assuming that universities aren't going to do anything about it, for anyone listening, um, and based off your experiences, or even like if you were to then go on to build a team, the kind of people that you would hire or people that stand out to you What do you think are some things you can do at university that, you know, is completely unrelated to the traditional spring weeks, internships, or, you know, even just like societal positions or whatever, like things that are just a little bit off script, but at the end of the day they're the most important ones because they make you stand out, right? Because most— the most common response to when receiving a rejection email from a company is you know, sorry, like another candidate just pipped it, and you— they won't tell you why or, you know, what it was exactly. But I mean, what would you think is some advice you'd give to somebody trying to get into their career path now?

Yeah, so I think, um, I'll first talk about like some of the things you can do to stand out, and then I'll talk about maybe some tactical tips that you can do to to actually like find the career that it is that you want to do as well, right? So like, firstly, let's just talk about you've kind of decided already the jobs you want to apply for. And I think it's like what you said, right? You got to focus on that bottom third of your CV, that bit where you have like extracurricular activities or like additional information, whatever else it is. When I was at McKinsey, we would get like literally thousands of applications every year for internships or for graduate roles. And we'd sit there and, you know, the kind of recruitment team would get like the first pass at like all the CVs and then we would help to come in and like review them after that. But you've still got like hundreds and hundreds of CVs. And so we'd be like flicking through these. And the reality is everyone's got great experience, everyone's got good grades, everyone's done like a spring internship somewhere else. So it's like they can they can often look a lot of the same. And so it's really hard to choose one over another. And so what we started to do is like look further down the CV, right? To that section where it says extracurricular activities. And sometimes, just sometimes, you'd find something that like really stands out. You'd find this like gold in this like stack of CVs. And it would be something where like I'd be sitting there and my colleague and I'd be like, would be beside me and I'd be like, here, did you see this, this woman? Did you see what she did? Like, that's crazy. Like, that's so cool. Like, we should, you know, we should, we should get her in for an interview.

You just wanna meet them.

Yeah, exactly. You're just like, this person, this person seems interesting. But I think it's two things, right? So we would look for like, one is like, what's something interesting that like helps this person stand out, right? But then I think the second one is like, we would look for evidence of like significant, like personal achievement, right? Has this person done something? It doesn't matter really what field it's in. It can be super obscure, but have they shown evidence that they're able to be outstanding in some fields? Because if they can be—

So how, how you prepare?

It is a little bit, but usually if you've, if you've, if you've done it, it'll be easy to convey it. Right. So for example, like you see the randomest things sometimes, but you know, Um, you see a CV, say, from a woman, and then, then very bottom, she was like, oh, also, like, um, I managed and ran, like, my family grocery shop for, like, 5 years when my parents were sick. And you're like, huh, like, that seems really hard. Like, if, if someone's actually done that, they, they have something about them. They could— they can, they can do shit. Um, and I'm sure that if I got them into McKinsey, like, they would they would learn McKinsey like they learned how to run a grocery shop, right? Or else it would be something like, oh, this person has written, you know, 500 blog posts about like Blackburn, like football club or something. And it's like, this is a bit weird, but I like it. Like, this person obviously has something about them. And so that's what we're looking for. It's like individual achievement. And yeah, in terms of how you portray it on the CV, it's important. But usually if you've done the thing, it's pretty obvious how you should talk about it.

So do you think maybe too much emphasis is placed on people at university, their first careers consultancy meetings, like make sure you're doing your spring week applications, make sure you're doing this, and less on like if you're saying those examples of blogs on Blackburn or whatever, That's like things that you're almost told, or at least your, your head tells you, oh, you're rabbit hole in there, this is not going to lead to anything in your career. But something like that's the most separating thing, ironically, to anyone else.

100%. 100%. You should do the thing, right? If you're interested in it, go and do it. And, and one, because it's fun, right? You're clearly like enjoying it if you're going to write 500 blog posts about a football club, right? Like there's obviously something there that you're obsessed with. So Yeah, exactly. And so you should like pull on that thread and like see what comes out of it for you. But also like, this is, this is how you stand out, right? The other stuff is like table stakes, but we would see this all the time. Like all the time there would be people who would kind of tick all of the table stake boxes with the internships and, you know, the grades and all that stuff. Um, and then like some rogue candidate would come along. He's like, maybe doesn't have all of them, But they've done some of these other interesting things and they'd rock up and, you know, they maybe they haven't spent the last 4 years preparing to get into McKinsey, but they kind of rock up at the last minute. They're like, oh, this is, this is cool. Let me apply for this. And very often they're actually the people who, who get in and get the job.

Maybe I'm deep diving into this too much considering this. There's so much you've done. Yeah, I mean, I guess That's something that if anyone wants to find out more about exactly all your thoughts and all the people you've met, obviously check out your podcast and the Divergence program if you want to go in more depth with that. But just on that sort of student-specific, you know, making yourself stand out a bit more, I think even within university you've got these society roles and that's— everyone sees as extracurricular, like, and they might be like 'Okay, I was the president of my, you know, economic society,' or whatever. And it's like, that's still actually quite within the framework of what you might just, you know, scrolling through. 'Okay, yeah, done that with the society, that of a society.' It's like, one thing that you— I mean, you talked about your lifestyle, your dream lifestyle, being where you're sort of constantly like meeting up your mates and collaborating and doing fun things. And I think sort of having that zest for life, which I think at times you might lose when you're at university because for whatever reasons, like lifestyle, or, um, yeah, maybe not achieving what you want in your grades and a subject that maybe you're not as interested in. There's loads of things that can get in the way of you just enjoying life, right? But I think I've definitely found that with myself is that I couldn't have just gone from not feeling like I was really doing much of a history degree to all of a sudden, like, I'm doing a podcast and I'm, well, you know, I'm interviewing this person. Like, there were in between steps, literally, like, learning how to DJ. Like, how— feeling like there was something alongside your studies, or even, you know, you can use the example of a job that was making you feel like you're moving somewhere, you're like, you're actually achieving something. I'm trying to get away from that, like, the, the ways of achieving things or attaining success, which like people just give you. I feel like that's a really important thing. So it, it's really— my question is, say you lose all your passions, uh, you know, you're struggling, but you know you had them at one point, or you know you want to be passionate about something. How do you just like get yourself back on that track and start enjoying these extracurricular activities again?

Yeah, yeah. I think, um, so I actually would love to hear like your story about how you transitioned from that as well and like how the DJ thing happened. But I think like, um, you know, if I think about this is like, you know, why, why are, why are you not passionate about something like right now? And it's like you, you may have just fallen out of it, like life may have gotten in the way of it. Um, but also it might be, be one of the reasons might be because like, you know, you're not trying enough new things, right? So I would really put an emphasis, especially when you're in university, to go and just sample all these things. It's one of the times in your life where you have the time to do this, but you have the freedom to go and try other things. And like 9 out of 10 of them, you might go, you might try it, and you might be like, not for me, honestly, just didn't enjoy that. But 1 in 10, you might go, fuck, that was interesting. I'll go back again. Right. And you don't think about it like long term as in like, okay, I'm going to try out DJing. It's like, oh, do I want to be a DJ? Right. So don't worry about that. Just worry about, do you want to go back next week for the next lesson or whatever else it is? It's like, if the answer is yes, okay, go back again and don't put pressure on yourself to be like, oh, is this something that a passion that I'm going to follow for a very long time? And another thing as well is that coming back to what I was talking about earlier in terms of which comes first, like the passion or your ability to be good at it, recognize that. So it's like sometimes you might try something out, but if you're just playing around on the surface of it and you're not good at it, it'll usually feel shit. So don't worry. You need to try and separate. It's like, okay, am I not enjoying this because I just fundamentally don't enjoy what this thing is about or what the people who I would be hanging out with if I was doing this thing? Or is it because I'm I'm just not good at it yet. And that would, you know, look more like a bit of frustration around like the skill set. And if it's the latter, you know, then you need to say to yourself, well, maybe I should push through, maybe I should spend a bit more time with this thing because on the other side of it I can get a bit good at it and then I'll start to enjoy it and it'll become a passion. So, so that would be my, my thoughts on that. But just go and like, I know it's really like clichéd advice, but like just try new things and Follow whatever you're curious about. And like, if you have a random idea that just comes in your head, like, huh, I really think I should, like, I'd really love to look at hat design, right? This is something I've been looking at. I get all these Instagram reels of like these guys who like make hats, like really nice hats. And I'm like, I'd love to try that out. Like, just try it out and see what happens.

I think my own perspective, so, well, Yeah, from my own perspective, one of the most important things I realized at university was to have perspective and, and try and gain that perspective. If I apply it to sort of my journey, I think it's very easy, um, you know, someone might look at myself and be like, okay, he did history at UCL, like he clearly never struggled with academics, or at least relative to other people. But that was— I really did just put my head down for A-levels because I knew that I needed to, to get into a good university, and then I picked history because it was what I was good at at A-levels. That just didn't transfer into university at all. And, you know, I was at this point in second year where I was like, oh my God, there's so many people that are way better than me at history, actually love history, and I'm just kind of here like, yes, with the name UCL next to me, but not with the actual learnings or motivation just to study like someone at UCL should be. And, and I think what that made me do, um, for a while I was like, okay, I just wish I was really good at something. Like, you know, I wish something really just stood out to me. But then I also, I was looking at people who were, say, really good at biology at A-level, and they were like, okay, well, I should probably be a medic. And they start medicine year 1, 7 years ahead in the UK. And it's like, they get to their third year and they're seeing all these people sort of actually figuring out what they want to do, um, and getting closer to it, uh, yeah, they might not have it figured out, but like there's actually a problem in being really good at something from a really young age is that you never challenge what you actually want. Um, and I think if there's anything that I could sort of encourage people to do university is like, you know, if you are already good at something, great, good for you, but almost have the mindset that you have nothing and you need to try and find out what that is. And with me in my career, I was like well, I'm not a consultant, I'm not a lawyer, and I could try and get that job and I could try and become part of that rat race, but really, like, to what avail? I don't want the lifestyle that they have, and I don't think I'd compete with my CV. And that was why the Graduate Guide was actually like, okay, there's a burning problem here that a lot of people can relate to, and I think with my social confidence, whatever, I could play some part in solving. And, you know, one thing leads to another. Yeah, you're at that, that, that rut and that perspective, like, you're— everything's against you and there's no way you're gonna get out of this and there's no way that you're gonna get a job you like. Actually sort of tackling that head-on and really thinking, okay, let's make something out of this, or unless you've got nothing, like, you know, the sink or swim mentality, really.

100%. But also recognizing, like, trying to be comfortable in that phase of not knowing what it is that you're really good at or what you want to do, right? Because if you feel really uncomfortable in that, you're going to just latch on to something. You're going to just go, well, I should just be a consultant because at least then I'll have something, right? Whereas if you're able to say, okay, I don't know what it is, but I'm doing stuff, like, I'm, I'm figuring it out. Yeah, it might take a little while, but, but that's okay because it's worth it. Because when I have something that I really enjoy doing, the benefits of that are huge.

I think it's all good me saying that, but it's all one of the final things I want to touch on in this episode is, okay, like you have these passion projects, you have something that, yeah, maybe you can make something out of this, but then there's still got to be a level of accountability to transform it into anything that could be be, you know, interesting to anyone else, or like actually produce a product that is at all, you know, yeah, something that other people would want to consume or participate in or whatever. And, you know, that, that accountability is just something that is— it's, it's really hard to get to grips with, you know, at any stage in life. But again, especially as a student, because you, you have it loads at school and you have it not at all at university. And even with a job, like, you have people almost, you know, managers setting you these tasks and these goals and whatever. But I think, like, if we just say it doesn't matter what time we're talking about— school, university, whatever— what do you think are some, some healthy ways in general, some tick boxes that you could have to make sure that, okay, this is what healthy accountability looks like.

Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. So I used to focus on, um, like outcome goals, right? So these are like the actual results of the work that you do, and these like create a lot of pressure and actually aren't really that good, I think, for accountability because you're not able to like directly influence like the outcomes all the time. So what I did was I switched to like process goals. And so this is the stuff that I'm in control in. For example, with the podcast that I run, I could have sat down at the start of this year and said, you know, I'm gonna aim for like 100,000 downloads like this year, or whatever else it is. But that's not in my control. I don't directly control how many people download the episode every week. What I can control is how often I put out episodes and how good they are. Right. And so my process goal was I'm going to release an episode every single week this year.

That's it.

Non-negotiable. I can control that. There's no reason that that cannot happen. And so that creates— well, what's that?

People need to say yes to coming on as well, assuming—

no, but this is the thing, right? Because what would happen is there'd be a week where I wouldn't have a guest, right?

Okay.

But my process goal was like, well, shit, I have to release an episode. I fucked up. I didn't organize a guest in time. So now I've got to do a solo episode or I've got to figure it out. But it's like you create this, like, non— you, you imagine, like, I created this goal for myself. I'm my own manager, so I obviously could just, like, you know, give myself an excuse. But you imagine that it's like this thing that's been, like, handed down from the universe, which is like, no, like, I have to, like, I have to create an episode, like, every single week. This is, this is non-negotiable for me. And because it's a process goal, it's easier to stick to. And then I think the other one that works for me is creating like artificial external accountability. So, you know, social pressure is actually really good if you can harness it in the right way. So with this, I actually, I told a few people this, right? I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna release an episode every single week for the rest of the year. Like, I'm telling you now, I'm gonna do it. And so now when it gets to that moment where I'm sitting there on a Wednesday and I'm like, I don't have an episode for this week, I haven't I have to go record one tomorrow, but I'm really busy. And then I think, fuck, I told them. I told them I was going to release an episode every single week, and now I'm going to have to tell them I failed at it. Right. That external accountability is huge, and it has a huge impact. The last thing I'll say is the kind of story about this, which is I started working with a nutritionist in the last month to really get on top of my diet. And like, I, I just always had this goal of like kind of taking my diet from like an 8 outta 10 to like a 10 outta 10. And essentially all they do is be a source of external accountability for me. So like every day I have to tell them what I ate and they kind of get feedback, but like not a whole lot. But it's just a point that I have to tell them and creates that accountability for me. And so it's like realize that like you know, you're almost trying to like design your own incentive system, right? So it's like, think of yourself as like a separate person and be like, how does that person react to like incentives or to, you know, accountability? And then let me design a system for them, and then they have to live within it, right? So you design the system when you're in control, and then the other you, who's like you 99% of the time, now has to live within that system and like the accountability has been created for them and they're like, huh, I guess I just have to do this thing.

I think for, for me that's definitely the one I relate to most where— and it's a weird thing where sometimes it's almost an uncomfortable truth, like the accountability you're giving yourself. Like it's like, I know this would be good for me, but in the moment that's not what I want to do. Uh, it's just not. But, but ultimately, you know, You know, if you're looking at— if you're honest with yourself at the end of every week and you've not done the things you're trying to hold yourself accountable to, the detrimental impact of that is far worse than, you know, taking that one little bit of extra accountability in a certain aspect. I think the important thing as well is definitely for me, it's not all got to come at once. It's not all got to come together in this one miraculous, like, whoa, look at this guy, he's a new person. It definitely wasn't that for me. It's really a process of, you know, if you are taking the social pressures, uh, model of accountability— some people have just got accountability, it's worth mentioning that. Some people just seem to be able to, within themselves, always read all the homework and then always have all the answers and whatever. Like, that was never me. So with the social pressure one, I think it's important to acknowledge that you're also— yeah, as much as you're trying to prove something to yourself, you're trying to really prove to people you've got this other, you know, stringer boat. Like, you know, I, I can do this, doesn't mean I can do that. But suddenly, you know, a year's time, that boat is looking a lot more attractive and people want to, want to have it.

Um, yeah, so yeah, 100%.

My final question to you, and you've been great. Um, yeah, it's really, really nice to speak to someone, um, who I think is a bit of a sponge like myself, um, that we like to take other people's opinions and perspectives. And I think ultimately that's, you know, manifested ourselves, and we are podcasters technically. I don't think— might not introduce ourselves as that, but yeah, that is what we are. And, um, yeah, you must have had so many sort of different ideas or, um, opinions on this topic throughout your life, but I want to know what your definition of success is and how it's changed from maybe graduating and beginning at McKinsey to now with all your experience and what you've done now?

Yeah, um, so when I was at McKinsey, if you'd ask me this question, I probably would say something like very myopic, which was like, you know, being a partner at McKinsey, that's my version of success, right? Um, now it's like a much more like holistic view of it. I actually wrote this, I wrote an essay essay, which is about what I think my purpose is. Because you've got these questions like, what's your purpose in life? What do you think the meaning of life is? And so I always had this question and I ended up writing an essay on it. And I was like, look, right now, here's what I think the purpose of my life is. And there was like 6 things in it. And success for me is just essentially been able to live my life doing those those 6 things. And it's really simple. It's not like success is not like a goal-oriented thing for me. It's just like each day, each week, am I doing the kind of things that I find meaningful? Am I doing work that I enjoy? Am I being creative? Am I spending time with good people? The type of people that I want to spend time with. Am I being active? Am I being outdoors? Like, it's just like that. It's a really simple view of what a good life looks for me. And if I'm living that every week, that's success. And honestly, most of the time, most of my weeks look like that, which is great. So I kind of think that I'm living it now, which is really good. I think that deferred happiness is really challenging. And so I'd encourage people not to say success will be when I get X. It's Well, you know, could you just have success now? Like, could you think about what that might look for you right now rather than always deferring it into the future?

You've been great. Thanks so much for coming on, mate.

My pleasure, my pleasure. I better run. I'll send you a WhatsApp later, but I'm—

I'll stop then, right?

Yeah, just press stop. Yeah, press stop and then