Tom Holmes, Founder @ Toms Trunks

Tom, welcome to the podcast. If you could just start off by telling us a little bit about your company, Tom's Trunks.

Yeah, of course. So thanks so much, Pete, for having me on the podcast. It's a real privilege to be with you, and I don't necessarily feel I should be here, but essentially Tom's Trunks was started in 2014 after I'd been on holiday to Kenya, and I didn't have any shorts at the time, so I bought some shorts off this guy on the beach, which They are like a Kenyan kikoi short, super comfy. I wore them all holiday and my dad started calling them Tommy's trunks. And I'd always had like an inkling for like little businesses and I'd love the idea of being able to do something yourself and just like, just do it. So, I decided I was going to buy a few pairs and then bring them back to the UK and started selling them. And that's kind of how it started. So, literally it was just buying stuff, selling it and I just loved it. It was just, it really made me tick. I wasn't necessarily the kind of smartest kid at all. If any of my friends ever listen to this, they'll definitely know that and I still am not. But I just kind of loved the idea of being able to create something from nothing and make money out of it or be able to do different things.

Yeah, before you started, obviously you started off very young. Was it obvious to you that you would always be an entrepreneur and also more specifically specifically to be in clothing, or was that just all coincidental?

I think the element of being in clothing was very much coincidental, but now I really love it and I'm genuinely really interested in where it can go. In terms of entrepreneur, I don't really classify myself as an entrepreneur yet. So I don't know if I spoke to you about this before, but I feel like you've kind of got to make it big before you can say you're an entrepreneur, because now there's so many people that are kind of doing different side things. So I still very much see it as like a growing side hustle, and then— but my mission is to be an entrepreneur. I want to be able to prove to myself that it is possible.

Yeah, and obviously when you were doing it at 14, 15, it's a very different story to doing it now. You've gone full-time, you've got a load of stuff, you've got a lot to hold yourself to account to. Like, it's a whole different gig. Like, how did you go from being this guy who just started a company, started selling clothes, to, you know, a big company, yeah, with many employees, and, you know, you're coming out with new clothes every week. Like, how's that process worked?

So I always say that our journey, at least my journey, has been very, very organic and a lot of trial and error. And I mean, a lot of podcast artists today talk about failure, and I actually really hate failure. Like, I genuinely It pisses me off and it really stresses me out. I hate being bad at something, but because we've had so long— so I always say our growth journey of Tom's Electronics has been very, very gradual. And so the changes that I felt haven't really— they've just blended up. It's a bit like growing up. You don't tell— you can't really see yourself that you've changed, but other people can. So that's kind of how I see it. But in terms of the— how the business runs, is it's like for for me it's much more challenging now, especially doing it full-time. So, I'd say like the scale-wise, last year I wasn't doing it full-time, but we were at a fairly similar scale. But yet, because it wasn't my full responsibility, I always had that excuse and I feel like I'm now trying to get out of my mindset of excuses. But definitely before I had a lot of, I would often have an excuse, I'll be like, if something didn't go well, I'd be like, "Oh, that was because I couldn't give it enough time." Now there is really no excuse So it means that I have to really pull my weight and I can't be going, "Oh, it doesn't matter." Like, it's a lot more disciplined. So I'd say that's, that's one of them.

Yeah, and you're not just selling clothes anymore, you're doing festivals, events all over, well, now the world, you know, it was the country initially. And with that comes a lot of logistics and things that when you first started you didn't even maybe expect were going to happen. Yeah, and that requires ability to adapt in business and, you know, yeah, basically just not knowing what you're going to do, but then when it comes, you're prepared. With these events that you're doing, what, like, what do they look like? Why did you think it was the right, the next step to do in terms of growing the company?

So, that, the event side of our business really goes back to our really slow organic method. So, if I was to start a business now, I'd go, especially in clothing, I'd go for a completely different approach. I'd be very much like, let's put a huge ad spend on, let's really try and push like Facebook, Instagram, and Google Ads, and I wouldn't bother with events. But when I was starting out, I could get a little stand on a market for £100 a week, and that would enable me to sell 10 pairs, and I would be able to pay in cash, and it would be like tiny amounts of money, which you, so you wouldn't have to commit a huge amount. So, it enabled me to be able to get the business and meet new customers, literally face-to-face, which is something that I felt I was much better at. So, I like love selling. Like, it is literally, I see it as like the funnest thing to do is selling something and like convincing someone to do something that hopefully they do in the end want to do. So, for me it was initially happened by, it was just a cost thing. It was like the cheapest way to get to new places. And I still believe it's a great way to acquire customers. But the, the, the idea of like doing, doing events kind of originates from there. And now we just had to scale up to kind of keep up with the business. But definitely from a commercial aspect, events are super labor-intensive, super high stress, and not, not a huge return. But yeah, I see them as a really real core of our business because they're about what, what, what our brand stands for, which is kind of like traveling, exploring. Meeting people, finding the best out of people, making people feel comfortable. And I feel like, especially festivals, they're the best place to kind of be yourself, feel comfortable, and have no cares in the world. So that's kind of why we do it now.

Yeah, and to get any longevity in business, ultimately, you know, you can keep going if sales are high or it's very rewarding, but you just need to enjoy it, right? And, you know, selling and festivals is where you feel most comfortable. And, you know, another important thing is not just you enjoy it, but all your now employees enjoy it. And how are you creating that ethos that, you know, people are on board with how you want to run the business, and, you know, and that everybody is on the same page?

Yeah, I mean, this is something that I'm actually struggling with the most now, and I think that's where being young is— I was listening to one of your other podcasts, and it was talking about leadership and how you can't really You can't really just like do a course and you know it. It does take time to learn. And at the moment, it's— to me, it's like our events seem so much fun, but not necessarily everyone does enjoy them. So I may think something that's easy is not easy. So to try and get people on board is it's about trying to find the right people that enjoy doing those kind of things. Because at the end of the day, events aren't all fun. Like there's some big, big, big— it's like long hours. Long drives, stuff like that. So finding people to get on board with that and like the ethos is very much like I'm now learning that it's actually about, it's not about what you do, it's about the people that you bring in have to be wanting to do it because some things you can't instill in people. I mean, that's something I'm really learning now is that you can quickly learn if someone's really on board and actually wants to do or if they're just kind of doing it for a pastime and it's a journey.

Yeah, I think a big part of recruiting the right people is like putting out the right brand, you know, putting out, you know, whether it's on social media or just like any event you do, like emphasizing what is about Tom's Trunks, why you'd want to work there. And, you know, I wonder what exactly that is and how that's developed, because, you know, when you start just selling clothes there's no brand to it other than your dad giving you a name, like, yeah, that's all it is. But as you grow and grow, like, branding, as you realize, is so important for the future. So yeah, what's that process been like?

So for building brands now, I see it as like social media is 100% the most important thing because it's something people relate to. And I actually recently got rang up by a brand agency, and I must admit, I often do think our brand name is super confusing. Tom's Trunks, but we do not sell swimming trunks, but we are a beachwear brand. And this guy was telling me how bad my branding was, and I was kind of like, you know, if anyone— I don't know, you, you've got, you know, you're working with Walter too at the moment. I think if someone came and like blatantly on the phone slagged you off, you'd be kind of annoyed, and you'd try and like come up with reasons why. And that really made me think about my branding and how it's come along on a journey. And I see like the branding that we try and portray to our, like, potential, like, in— if we're bringing people in to come and, like, work for us and work with us, is the branding I really want to portray is, like, become part of this journey of, like, making clothes that are going to have a better impact on the environment and help the environment and be, like, part of a company and a culture which is very inclusive and genuinely about making products that are fair price and give back to charity, and people that actually genuinely want to do good. I think that's something I'm really beginning to learn, is like, I think between our generation, the amount of people that like preach about sustainability or like, like wokeism or everything like this, ticking a box. Yeah, but it literally is ticking a box. And it kind of makes you really sad to think that is the case because If you think, like, for me and my branding, I genuinely do believe in it, and I really want, like, people that are going to come for our team to be like, right, if we're going to say we're going to be carbon neutral, every element of our process, every scope is going to be carbon neutral. And I want people to be on that same journey. So I think having that really strong branding now is becoming more and more important because the people that are going to be very on side with that, I think, can be hopefully easier to stay aligned with your vision.

Yeah, 100%.

Because otherwise people get like super, super conflicted by commercial aspects and things like that, rather than, rather than actually what, what's the right thing to do.

Yeah, and if we take it back to the beginning of the whole journey, it's just you, um, you know, you made it sound very simple that like it was something that you just felt within you, that it was something you wanted to grow yourself, but I think there's a lot of social pressures or, you know, paralyzing feelings that stop people from doing that, especially at such a young age. It's like, at school, people are going to talk behind your back about you or like question what you're doing. And that requires a lot of resilience or, you know, yeah, ability to block other people's views out. I mean, was it there when you first started, like when you were 14, or did you kind of fake it till you make it?

I That's a really, that's a really good question, Pete. So I, I kind of— that whole social pressure for me when I was younger made me really want to prove people wrong. So, you know, in the environment I was in, I'd often get comments like, Tom, it's just a Depop shop, like you can't be calling it a business. And I totally agree, like at that point it was just a Depop shop. So in a sense, I did kind of fake to make it, like trying to make it a bit more commercial and made it try and made it as professional as possible. But I also like that social pressure really pushed me on. Like there was a really big tipping point when initially I was, and it was probably when I was about like 17, I used to be really worried what people were saying. And then something that after 17, I was not, not, not in like a kind of arrogant way, but I had a bit more self-belief in the sense that maybe I just try out and if I fail it doesn't matter because at least I've try doing something that was like so more passionate about. So I think the social pressure definitely, and it's still today, I think it's even more now. I think probably a lot of people listening to this podcast have just finished uni or like similar stages to, to us, and there's a lot of pressure. Like even now I'm thinking, do I want to do a corporate job? Like do I even want to be this like startup entrepreneur, whatever it is? Um, because maybe like it's more, it's better to be like in a corporate job going for pints at 6 o'clock with everyone.

Yeah, so I think it's so easy to say like, oh, I've got this in the bank, like, this makes my CV, like, makes you stand out. I can technically go and get any job within the realm that you want to. And that quick, like, exit, like, that thought comes into, I think, most entrepreneurs' heads. And I think, like, a lot of it— I mean, obviously you're— you don't have a co-founder, at least not that I know of, but you do have people around you, like, you know, some are interns as we have watching, or you have, you know, people who can really hold you to account to be like, no, like, listen, this is what you've got, this is your platform, this is your base, like, you'd be a fool to give this up and you'll just be like indoctrinated into what everybody else is doing. Like, how important and how, you know, how long did it take for you to surround yourself with those kind of people?

I'm always looking for those kind of people. I think it becomes more like magnetic when you start doing more and more different stuff. I think it's definitely super important. So before I went full-time into Tom's Trunks, I was working for Morrison's supermarkets, and I thought it was gonna be a really toxic place for me to work, like be full of people that kind of like, no, you can't do it by yourself. But something that I found really inspired me and it made me, in my opinion, a slightly stronger person was how hard people around me were working for, in my opinion, like quite menial, like, tasks. Not, not in like a bad way, but like they were like working their socks off. And I— it really inspired me to think, you know what, if they can do it, I can do it. Like, why am I ever giving myself an excuse? So I think surrounding yourself around people that are going to motivate you and also want you to do really well is so important. And I think that's in any, any, any, any job or any anything you do really.

Yeah, I think it's interesting because I've, you know, I've had this happen to me and I think a lot of people face this problem where, you know, hard work, like when you're grown up, you grew up in like the education system where like there's only really like one way which you're able to do that, like do your homework and get it in and get the highest grade. That's the only like parameter you have for like, I'm working hard. But as you get older and more aware of other opportunities, to work hard. I think it's very important to find like what your idea of working hard is and stay true to yourself on that because for me like I could literally do this, I could do the podcast all day, every day, edit, film it, organise the logistics of it and I wouldn't even, like it wouldn't be hard at all but if you get me to sit down and read a book for like an hour on something I'm not interested in like I'm not a hard worker. So I mean, how did you— I mean, when you first started Thomas Trunks, again, you probably didn't realize what was gonna happen, the tasks that would come in the future. Like, your days probably look very different now you're full-time to when it was a side hustle. How did you work out your idea of what a hard-working, successful day looks like to you?

So at the moment I'm really trying to decipher between like hard work and productivity, and I think for me now it's more based on productivity. Um, but I really feel like a hard-working day is like when you achieve everything that you wanted to achieve. And I— a lot of people say you shouldn't benchmark against other people. I think definitely for myself I'm at a point in my, in my life where I kind of need to benchmark against other people. I, I'm like pretty naive on most things, so therefore I find I do often compare to, to other people I see around me, like my mentors. So like a simple thing, like I don't— for me, I find I work best in the morning and like being really reactive. And I find like if I send a mentor a message at like early in the morning and they respond to me, that kind of makes me realize, you know what, I'm not any different like, this is— I've got to do this just to make sure I'm doing that. That's the minimum. So I think that's really like lowered my benchmark of that is what hard work is, is like make sure you keep disciplined, make sure you are trying to do that little bit extra every day. Yeah, and if you've got your task list of like 10 items, you get one more done. That's kind of my view.

Yeah, like I think generally short-term or long-term, starting as you mean to go on, it's like a very— like it's one of these things that that you hear all the time, and until you actually have to practice it, you don't really know exactly what it means. But yeah, this whole idea of benchmarking, like, that, that's the only real thing that can hold you to account when it's just you yourself. Like, you know, when it's— yeah, again, I keep coming back to it, but like, this— it's interesting following your journey where it's just not many people have started that young and with that little resources that little, like, a team. And the place you're at now, like, is genuinely incredible. And I think, you know, to do it for as long as you have, there's got to be, like, yeah, like you've said before, times that you question what you're doing. How important do you think it is to keep doing what you like outside of business, though, for that longevity? Because, you know, being determined and everything is important, but there's a load of other factors that come into it outside of the business world.

I think it's super important. I'm probably a really wrong person to be asking this question though, because I'd say at the moment definitely I just literally do Tom's Drunks, and then even our events, I don't see that as work, but then technically it is work, and that's like my fun thing. Um, but I, I was speaking to a content creator recently and they were saying how they now create their own content that they don't necessarily post, they just create because that's what they love doing. And I was actually thinking, you know what, I need to do more of that. I enjoy, like, coming up with designs. I need to design more for myself rather than just the brand. So I do think it's really important to separate it because it means you're going to challenge it. Because as soon as you do, like, the same thing every day and you're not doing anything for yourself, you then become more regimented. It's not— it's not actually— you're not creating it new, you're just repeatedly doing things. So I think it is really important. I just need to work out— I'm trying to learn how to like balance it. And that's again going back to my naivety. I want to get better at like working out how I can balance the time of doing things I enjoy like sport and stuff, rather than just going, oh, if I didn't do that today, I could save an hour there not going for a run, or something like, and do an hour more on that, and that could get that return. But actually you've got to have those differentiations.

Yeah, I think similarly, like, with your, your personal brand that you're putting out there, you're probably like very hyper-aware of like almost anybody could be the customer for you because it's clothing brand, like everybody wears clothes. So, you know, it must be very important for you to like work out when it's like a purely social event and you can fully be yourself and let loose, and or you're there for business. Like, how have you found that?

I definitely have an approach. I even in our office, I try and be as like friendly and like I try and, to be fair, I think there is just one version of me. There's not any, like, kind of personas I try and portray. If I want to have fun, no matter whether it's work, I will try and have fun. Again, that may be wrong, but, you know, I think there's an element of being, like, polite, and you don't often, you shouldn't say things that you're necessarily thinking in, like, a work scenario. But I think also socially now, even, even more, like, it's better just to be nice and there's no point in having that kind of negative thing. But I try and now just kind of keep it consistent, and then I probably have like the crazy times just with a couple of people. But yeah, that's—

Yeah, I mean, and a big message from that is generally staying authentic to yourself. Like, I think that's like, well, it's a problem that we're— anyone who's doing a business now or anything is having to go like double down almost, like, because everything's so AI, like, ChatGPT-generated that, like, to stand out you kind of do need to be extra authentic and show that you're not just like— this hasn't just been done by, like, some computer. Um, and yeah, I think that, that authenticity, like, it bleeds into your brand. I think, you know, the way you are as a person, I think you can tell that every single product that is listed is of the same quality, of the same ambition at the level you want to keep it. Like, and I mean, I also, I wonder with your brand, like, because your material is very good, everyone says your clothes are so comfy, but you are basically all trousers, like legwear clothing. Like, you must always think, I could do this, or shirts or jackets. Like, how do you stop yourself from, like, taking on too big a task?

I think in all seriousness, I want to do it all, and it's just now working out how, like, balancing the time and I don't want to do something badly. So actually did release hoodies like last year and now they've sold. I personally thought they could have been better. And now, so if we bring out anything more— so we're just about to bring out shirts, but I'm so proud of the shirts that we're about to bring out and that kind of thing. So I feel like I've wanted to do it, we just haven't because I haven't necessarily had the time to do it. Now the products that we're bringing out, I'm like, right, I want to be 100% on them. I don't want to release anything that's like half-hearted. And it goes very much back into our slow fashion movement on how we try not to have any waste. So releasing a product that doesn't sell is wasteful in the sense of, you know, it's either going to go to waste or you're just going to waste loads of storage space on it and time. But yeah, I think definitely now more so that kind of divide between personal brand and for me at least, my business brand is, we're even seeing now on our Instagram, the more authentic content we post, the better it does. Because I think people do actually want to realize that it's not just, as you say, AI-generated. There is actually people, you know, sitting there folding clothes or whatever it may be. Um, so I think authenticity is like really, really important.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a new thing that people love storytelling.

Yeah.

And just the way you storytell has changed because, you know, once upon a time businesses were not— you didn't think of a business, you didn't think of the founder really, you just thought of the business. And I think people like Richard Branson maybe changed that, like where, like, when you think Virgin, you think of Richard Branson. He's a very eccentric, outgoing person, he kind of resembles the brand. Like, it's something that you probably have to think about a lot, that, you know, your name is on that.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Linked together. Yeah, so, keeping on the personal brand side of things, I mean, it seems that you keep your personal life like very separate to what you put out there and everything, but how are you like really trying to go above and beyond to show yourself as, you know, just a normal guy, like not just like a founder and like lose yourself to the entrepreneur label? Like, what are you actually doing to keep your personal brand authentic?

I mean, I never used to, like, I wouldn't even say have a personal brand yet, so I'm really trying to work on that. And I just think it is me. So I very much see Tom's Trunks as products that we create. At the moment, at least, nothing we'd ever do wouldn't be something that I was really, like, proud of. And I think even when you're chatting to Faith, who's doing, like, internship with us, Is she saying Tom's a bit of a control freak? I actually think it's a really bad thing right now, but that's because my brand at the moment is like so important there, but also I want my personal brand to like mimic that and be similar. So in terms of working my personal brand, I think just networking with different people is really, really important. And actually the basics. I think I've now gotta do, be a bit more like fearless. So there's definitely like a whole thing about people saying, oh, you, like why would you post that online and stuff like that. But actually now, like, your Instagram profile, your LinkedIn profile is a lot more important. So yeah, it may be super cringy me posting a picture of like, I don't know, where we were 3 years ago in our business, where we are now, and people think it's like showing off. But actually, I think, you know what, that is actually what someone that's never met you before, that's what they're going to look at. And if you think about the pool of people you actually meet, it's nowhere near as big as if you have a massive LinkedIn profile which could bring in revenue and also enable you better opportunities or enable you to give people opportunities. So I think that's what I'm now trying to work on, is like, forget the social elements of like people going, Tom, that was like so cringe, that video. Like, I do not want to post cringe stuff, but I just think be a bit more fearless. And actually, they're not going to say it's cringe when that personal brand's enabled you to do really well. So I think it goes back to that self-belief. I That's kind of where I— I mean, how would you find it? I feel like you've got a much better personal brand. So how would you find it?

Mine's a bit weird because I like, you know, I guess by doing the podcast, I'm challenging that every week and then trialing it the week after where when I first started this podcast, you can, it's quite a cool thing about doing this is that you can bring, you can watch my old episodes. You can watch my very first ones and like, Comparatively, I'm very timid, like my friends wouldn't even probably recognise me. I'm very interview, or it's a bit more like ask question, get response. And now I'm really trying to bring in my thoughts and myself, which is, you know, it's difficult, but you get so much confidence from every time you, you know, you don't have to like really quickly. Some people just are naturally like, this is me, like deal with it, like I'm gonna put myself out there, but For me, I wasn't like, you know, I think even like the kind of schools we might have gone to, or, you know, the university, like, it's not like normal to have people around us like being influencers or putting theirself out there loads. But I do think that our voices are important to say if you're doing something that can help, you know, another person or a younger person learn from it and be, you know, that one step ahead, like, I think it's important to do do it. Um, and yeah, like, the podcast is a great way to bring it out. Um, speaking to every different person unlocks a new gear bit of sorts. I mean, like, conversation I have with you will be very different to the one I had with Georgia and Omar earlier, which, yeah, I think is fascinating. So with Tom Shrunk's, how did you go from— you're just buying clothes on the beach and then reselling them to— now you're curating every piece of clothing to be exactly where you want it, to the standard you want, the materials, everything. How did you make that transition?

So essentially, how— I'm just going to take it like a step back to where we kind of started. So initially, as, as you kind of said, we're buying stuff off the beach in Kenya. I would then— I was always like an avid fan of brands. So then I made a logo, designed a logo, which was a friend doing a handstand, sewed it on myself, and then would sell that. So we'd already like created this like brand icon. So something that was unique to About Us was the pocket label. And then like during my GCSE summer, I was like, right, I really want to scale this up and I just want to make it into a business. So after I had those comments from those friends saying, Tom, this isn't really a business, I was like, elements that I kind of were true. And so I basically went online and looked for different fabric suppliers. And what I did is I looked for a very similar woven product. So I went on like literally thousands of websites and I've drawn them out. I wish I had the same energy of like looking for things now, like researching different elements and found a fabric supplier. Which is based in Asia, and I then basically sent them our product and said, look, can you match this but change this? And it was all to the weave. So I was really interested. I, from like researching the different woven factories, I then became fascinated by like yarn-dyed weaving, which is like a specific type of weaving that we predominantly do. And I was also then really interested like where cotton comes from and really just dissecting it. I've always been like a bit of a I love the whole idea of making things. I'm really interested in where each element comes from. So I contacted this guy. He's called Abel. I'm now actually his first son's godfather, which is like, for me, is a massive privilege. So I've been working with him for 7 years now. And I went, I found him, and he was initially making Turkish towels. So you know, like, have you ever been, if you've been on holiday in Europe, you probably have a guy coming to sell you like a Turkish towel kind of thing on the beach. But the way they do the weaving is very similar. So it's a yarn-dyed fabric. So we then approached— well, I approached this guy, Bell, online and started just WhatsApping him. And it wasn't professional at all. And that's my, like, big thing now is a lot of people say, oh, how do you find your suppliers? And my first question I'll ask someone is, have you Googled, like, fabric suppliers? Like, because there's literally lists online of, like, different elements. So sent this guy a WhatsApp, and initially I was like terrified. It was like £1,000 for a woven sample. They could only make one. If it wasn't right, you lose your £1,000. And that was a massive amount of money. So I did that. We then— we then— I was like, right, they've matched it, it's better, we've improved this, it looks great. And then from then on, basically we started using, using him for everything. And in terms of keeping quality, which was one of your questions you asked, I found personally that quality has just had to be something that we've become more and more on, in terms of vividly on. So now, when we first did our first order, we never had any quality checkers. Now we would have someone in each factory who we paid for as a third party to go go into the factory and quality check. So I think as we've grown, we've just had to put more investment into that as a, as a function. In this early days, like when we were just starting our first order, Abel was super motivated to make sure it was right because he wants to continually to work with us. I've also found that in, in, for me at least, I try and really explain to specifically, we now have more suppliers than this guy, Abel, but he's our predominantly supplier, is that the more you use one supplier, some people say, yeah, they— you can become really reliant on them, and then they hold you over a, like, bargepole basically until— and just wreck your quality. But I always say to Abel, at least, I'm like, look, I will share you every sales figure, how much we're making. This is exactly like— I'm really transparent with all of our suppliers because they can Google what we sell our product for. So they know what we're buying it for, they know what we're selling it for, and they'll be able to work out what margin we're making. But something that I always explain to every supplier is, look, if your quality goes downhill, all that will happen is our orders will drop. And that's just going to mean you're going to make less money. And I very much say that is black and white. And if the quality is crap, we just will not buy from you. So, I definitely have a very cutthroat process now on quality. So, one bad order, that supplier's cut, rejected, we'll find someone else. So, that's kind of how we've got into it. So, definitely for someone that's wanting to go into it, a lot of Googling, YouTubing, trying to find out and learn as much as you can about yourself. All of my, like, textiles knowledge is completely self-taught. And I definitely don't know everything, so I'm learning constantly. From a guy on our team called Peter Wood, who does like all of our tech packs. And I love it. I genuinely love like learning something new. So that's my approach to it, is be really tough on quality, tough on price, but make sure you're building up that relationship. And I do see suppliers as friends. I like— it's that like when you're reading business books about that business relationship Some people say, yeah, you want really professional. I think it's great that I can like know that Abel, for an example, has got an issue with his son this week. So if I'm ringing him all day, he's probably not going to want that. So it's just, I think it goes back to the same thing in any team. I see every supplier as part of our team and I'll treat them just the same way.

Yeah, and something I found interesting that you said earlier was that you don't feel like you you're as enthusiastic maybe for that side of letting yourself go down a rabbit hole and explore different fabrics and Google and see. And a lot of that is because of the other responsibilities you have. And a lot of the people I've had on the podcast, other founders, they've started to designate time for themselves to let themselves be creative. Otherwise, they'll just get lost in emails and the logistics of everything and lose sight of that. Side of things. So when you look at your days, do you try and now schedule in like time to let yourself be creative, or at least meet up with the more creative side of your team?

I personally don't think I'm there yet. So definitely at the moment, every minute of my day is pretty much operationally. And like yesterday, someone on my team said, Tom, it's getting really annoying, you don't turn up on time to meetings. It really hits home when someone says that to you, but it was so needed at that point in time because I was like, I'm just trying to do too much and not level it off, which is meaning that the job isn't necessarily getting done for the highest amount. So for me, it's definitely an aspiration to have that element. I think this is a great— for me, like, looking from myself as an outsider, I think it's a great reality check of like, this is what like trying to scale up your business business is like, is like you read all these fantastic books, but the reality is at this point in time, I'm finding I just can't get out of this rabbit hole. But yeah, I know it's possible. I think that's why I kind of, I want to have that time.

Well, yeah, I think probably, I mean, you've said that you maybe struggle with the side of delegation. I think like, as someone who's in business, you know, and I've spoke to many people in it as well— I think one of the hardest things to delegate is that customer service because you know exactly how you want someone's experience to be with buying your product, receiving your product. You know how you want it to be, replying to emails. And as soon as you wake up, you have another one of those and you're automatically back into that mindset. And it just feels like there's almost no respite to properly teach that delegation. Do you have any ambitions of that, or if not, like, what have those struggles been so that others can learn from it?

Let me just have a little think about that. So for me personally, I wish I'd been quicker at giving responsibility and giving ownership because it's so much easier for someone to lead something if they personally feel like they've set it up. So with that example of customer happiness, one of— oh, customer service, I call it customer happiness.

Um, the goal is to make them happy.

Yeah, exactly. So like, in our company it is called customer happiness, and it's like, it's definitely the forefront for me. But I initially, I used to say the best way to introduce someone into the brand is they do that job. For 2 weeks. I've now learned that isn't the best way to introduce it, because if they don't know how to do the job, we have hundreds of unhappy customers. And so that was a really good learning, as I was like, well, if you can put someone doing it, they will understand every element of the business. Because if you're doing customer service, you have to know everything. You have to know when stock's been delivered, how long it takes for delivery to come, how how to do a refund, all this fun stuff. So going back to that point, I believe you've got to have someone to have ownership of it. They've got to create something in it or set something up themselves so that they feel responsible for it. So still go back to this day of like our best customer happiness person was one of my best mates because he set it up. He— I'd never done it because I'm dyslexic. Responding to emails, they're getting some funny funky words coming through. That does not work. So interestingly, I've never ever done customer service in my business. Even when it was like early days, I would get my friend Jamie, and Jamie would sit with me and do it with me and be like, Tom, I really wouldn't write that. And now I've taken that Instagram, and if you follow us on Instagram, you will spot many spelling mistakes in like captions and stories. Um, so I find that if someone like starts and does it end to end They're really good. But if you're just saying, right, this is the process, do it. Yes, you'll get a good— it depends what kind of person. If you're getting someone that just wants a job, then that's fine. But if you're getting someone you want to stick by it, so that's one of my learnings is don't— to train it really well if you want it done and let them create something new in it. So because it's constantly evolving, I think now you look at customer service like automate optimisation and stuff like that. And I think my other thing would be give people time. So don't necessarily— when things get bigger, it's easy to go, just do it, rather than actually, no, write the email, let me check it. So just put the work in and do it like that.

Yeah, well, you have one of your interns in here listening in, and I feel like It's a sort of fly-on-the-wall strategy in a sense where you know when you're like 16 and your school tells you to go do work experience and maybe like shadow a lawyer in like a massive corporate company and you just feel like you're not interested in it, like you're just like delivering coffees and just like getting to the end of the day. I would implore people to, you know, startups are so chaotic and so like unorganized, but it is the greatest place to learn because because like everything's happening, like you're seeing it all completely exposed, like you can't hide it, you can't try to look cool in that day, like you just see it for what it is. And I guess that's all part of your training strategy, is like it's not chucking someone in the deep end, but it's gradually, you know, easing someone in to get to see what it's like to work with you. You know, there's many different facets to Tom's Chunks and different elements of the brand now that you have to get right. So obviously your logistic focus is— you're mainly in charge of that, but how have you— I mean, how many employees do you have right now and what are they all doing to make sure that you're operating as efficiently as possible?

So our team, and this is another great learning for anyone listening who's wanting to start something up, so our team is predominantly part-time. So I've got my kind of like right-hand man, Freddie. He does our operations management but doesn't really enjoy the event side, which is our predominantly operations side. So he initially came on, was like, I think he came on when he had just left school and was just working part-time on an hourly basis. Still working part-time on an hourly basis but does during summer holidays like a lot of, a lot of time. And then we've got I've got a marketing manager who's just come on board with no experience, but very good at socials, and then a designer, and then that, and then 2 interns at the moment. But something I'm quickly learning is actually, if I was to do my whole startup process, or I think the difference with me is it's not a startup, it's a scale-up. So a lot of the stuff is we're just like, our operation's getting bigger. So something that I'm now trying to do is actually bring talent in, like proven talent. So although like they may not necessarily be the best fit for the brand, but I would rather the people that are the best fit for the brand are like doing marketing and stuff like that. But the operational side of things and the stuff like finance, operations, all this is just done by like people that have done it before. Because actually what we're doing is, at least by operationally, It's nothing cutting edge. It's we're making something, bringing it in and selling it. So that's one massive learning recently is don't go and think, oh yeah, you can train everyone up because I'm not the best person at it to train them.

Yeah.

So that's our current team makeup, but we're literally just going from a bit of a restructure. So bring in an operations manager with lots of experience. And then a marketing manager as well.

A question we like to ask all of our guests is, when you first started your company, you've got your own definition of success and an idea of what the pinnacle of success will look like to you. And now, many years on, you'll have your own new idea of what success looks like, both personally and for the company, and what is that?

So for me, success really means getting out of bed every day, and a lot of people say this, but for me it's getting out of bed every day and for me to feel like what I'm doing is actually helpful. So I'm not that bothered by money, like I really have no huge money focus, like obviously I want to have a business that that can pay wages well and be productive. I genuinely want to be doing something that is helping society move forward in a way that we are going to live a better life. So I want people— I don't want to see it like— a lot of people currently paint this picture of our world that it's kind of— it's going to implode. And I really do not want to be part of that. I want to be part of building a life where everything is improving. So even things like manual jobs, I genuinely want to make more and more things automated and have a society where more people can enjoy just going for a walk or enjoying life, looking after, looking after things. So for me, success means getting up out of bed every day and feeling like what I'm doing is helping move us towards that. And I think there is obviously metrics for that because you can't just have it as like what that is. So I feel like being— you've got to have the basics, so you've got to have the financial elements because otherwise you're going to be not focusing on what really matters. You're going to be focusing on trying to like scavenge, which isn't, isn't really where I want to be. Um, so I need to have some element of financial security. I then want to be always really authentic and true to myself, and then kind of know that every, every day I'm doing something better. So constant improvement. I think on— I was reading, reading, reading like a biography from someone, and it's the idea that you want to feel uncomfortable. So in a sense, I don't want to be comfy. I want to be out of my comfort zone every day, feeling like I've got to fight for it. And it's— that's my kind of— that they're my like kind of 3 core metrics of success.

Yeah, and I think to round off the podcast, something that I'd really like to know from you, and it's interesting because, you know, a lot, a lot of people we have on, they maybe take, you know, at the earliest they've started something while at university, or they started something, you know, after a couple years in the corporate world and realized that's not for them or whatever. But for you, you know, if there's any young people listening from any age, why, why start now? Why should you just start young? And, and, you know, for me, I think there's an element of like, you know, your naivety is like almost your superpower when you're young because you're not expected to know everything. And as you get older, that runs out and, and you become more— as more and more like you know, red tape or barriers to why you would start something. But why should someone start something right now?

I definitely second everything you've said in terms of when you get older, there's more and more pressure. So there's pressure of, oh, is it— you should know that, or why have you just said that, that's really stupid. So when you're young, you have all of that can come later. Also, when you're young, people want to help you, and I think you do still want— people do want to help you when you're older, But definitely when you're younger, people really want to help. Um, and I also think, what is the worst that can go wrong when you're young? So things like— I do believe we're in the best world where you can access things very easily. You don't need a huge amount of funding to start a business depending what it is. So I think just go for it. And it— starting early, if you're someone like me, I'm not intelligent, so I feel like Hopefully starting early just means I'm going to be on par with everyone else. That's how I literally see it, is that at least then, you know, I'm learning more. It's just giving myself— so I used to get extra time in exams. I'm like, well, for me, I need that extra time now to get— that's a good analogy, yeah— to get done, um, and just to kind of like meet par, and hopefully I can learn different things. So yeah, get ahead. I think I was recently doing some climbing. So I really love climbing and I was doing it with a guy and he was telling me that you just want to start early. And I didn't really understand this big quote, but it was like his quote was, "Start early." And it kind of really sings true to me. It's like if you do get ahead, it just makes it a lot easier. It's like if you're ahead, you don't want to fall behind. So if you just do so, literally makes it easier.

Ben, are you constantly looking back though?

I must say, I try never to look back. I'm just terrified of falling back.

Yeah.

So it's a tricky balance. Maybe it makes life more stressful or makes it more exciting. But I would definitely advise, well not advise, I don't think I can give advice, but there's, 'What's the worst that can happen?' is, I think, the best thing to say. But also, if you generally don't love it, don't do it. It does take a lot of hard work and, like, grit, but if you're willing to put it in, it's great fun and so, so worth it.

Yeah, I think today's episode really serves as an example to anyone that, like, you know, you're by no means traditional in the way you've gone about your career, but You know, it's been interesting, captivating, you know, hard, like rewarding all along your whole journey you've been doing it. And I think it serves as a great reason why you should, you know, follow your passion and not just like, you know, keep searching what consulting jobs are available, how can I make my CV like this or that, or like just try things. So yeah, thanks so much for coming on, Tom.

No worries, Peter Wood. Thanks so much for having me, and hopefully hopefully I've been able to give some insightful info, but if not, sorry.

And check out Tom's Trunks.

Yeah, if you want some comfy lounge pants, check them out. Great for those if you are doing the long CV applications. Get them on.

Cheers. Alright, thanks.