Zafar Bhunnoo, Founder @ Limitless

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today I'm joined by Zaf. Zaf, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Thank you very much for having me, Pete. It's a real pleasure to be here.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on. You are the founder of Limitless, and before we get into everything you do nowadays, I want to start at the very beginning of your career journey. So you studied physics at Loughborough. That's right. And back then, what did you think your career might pan out to look like?

It's a really interesting time if I cast my mind back as far as that. And one of the challenges I remember when I was doing my A-levels and trying to decide which degree I actually wanted to do, we had back then just about the internet. It wasn't quite as fully advanced as it is today. But we put in some key parameters of what I like as an individual. So being creative, working with people, making a difference, and so and so forth. And several times I ran through this career selector, and almost every single time I did it, the response I got was makeup artist. It was really quite interesting because I've never done anything with makeup. Not to say there's anything wrong with being a makeup artist, but it really wasn't quite the journey that I thought I'd be able to take. So The reason I ended up doing physics was to give me choice, fundamentally. And there's a big part of actually doing what my parents thought was right to do as well at university, because I wasn't going to do anything vocational. I wasn't gonna be a lawyer or a doctor or any of those things. I knew that much. So coming out of university with a physics degree, I was left with choice, but I didn't know where to go. And I was honestly, for a good amount of time, very, very lost. And I tried a whole bunch of different things. I applied to a bunch of different industries. And it's great having a 2:1 in physics from a prestigious university, but it's also a catch-22 because you didn't have any specific industry experience in real estate or in finance or in management consultancy. And I tried a whole bunch of these and I always got the same response. Thanks, but you don't have any regular, uh, you know, relevant experience. So it was a real challenging time. I spent a bit of time doing some childcare, which was actually something I'd been doing through my university time. I was working with the local council. And as a play and services coordinator. So that was really exciting. I worked with children from an educational perspective and learning through play. I didn't think I could really make a career of that though. And then I went to some of these old, old-style graduate fairs where companies are displaying their wares and what they do. And I found out about this thing called project management. I had no idea what project management was. And then specifically within the real estate industry, and it's like, oh, that's interesting. And so, you know, the idea of coming up with a creative solution to building a building, okay, what's that about? Did a bit of research and actually at the time my father put me in touch with a gentleman who was running a fairly successful business and he said, well, okay, if you want to get into the real estate sector, why? And he really pushed me and really challenged me and it really enabled me to go away, do my homework and present myself in a way that was going to be compelling to potential employers. And taking that sort of mentorship, I then went to apply, and this was 2007, and obviously the GFC, the global financial crisis, was looming. Those that were kind of reading the papers kind of had an inkling, and my first role was at a company called M3 Consulting, and I remember it was a 6-month process through the application process, and one of the last interviews I had was with the MD, And he said to me, look, I'm not quite sure where things are going to pan out in the next few months. So we're not quite sure if we're going to freeze hiring or not. But that being said, you know, I went through the graduate days and I think I was one of maybe 7 or 8 different graduates and they all had relevant degrees at construction project management. They had real estate finance and various other things. And there's me with a physics degree and a load of interest and passion. Funnily enough, I was the only person that got a job that year. And so I went on their graduate program and that kind of set me off into the world of real estate.

Okay, so let's dig a little bit deeper into why you were the only person that got the job. What, you know, you mentioned it was formative, sort of having your why locked down going into it. What does that actually mean in practice and what ability did that give you in terms of storytelling and contextualizing who you were at the time?

Yeah, I think that's a really pertinent point to dwell on because one of the things that my mentor— and I credit a lot to mentors in my time, and one of the things I do now is I mentor a lot to try and give back— but one of the things he pushed me to try and do is beyond the job, what is it that really drives you? What's the interest? And I went back almost to that questionnaire I was doing in my A-level times to try and figure out, okay, what job can I go to? And creativity, working with people, making a difference, all those things were very, very true, and those still very much part of my why, my makeup today. And really, it was trying to lean into those and really amplify that when I was coming to speak to employers. So I'd say, look, I don't have the technical knowledge, but I'm willing to work hard and learn. I mean, physics is not an easy degree to get. So I'm willing to put in the work ethic and willing to work hard. I work twice as hard as the next person, but I've got a ton of passion and a ton of interest and a ton of creativity. And the other thing that I had tried to do was Okay, if I don't have the skills now, specifically with the real estate sector, how can I acquire them? And I'd reached out to a few people and before I actually got my first job, I was able to get a sort of an internship effectively, and internship programs are fantastic.

How were you reaching out?

Through, I was part, it was part of a network that I was with. So through my religious community, actually, it was the only network that I really had. I didn't have a professional network at the time. And so I didn't use LinkedIn or Instagram, none of those sort of tools really existed. And this is going back 20 years ago now. So giving my age away a little bit, but it was using the network that I had available to me, which was the mosque community. And there was a gentleman there who'd been a fairly successful developer. I said, look, can I shadow you for a little bit of time? Just wander around the country with you and see what you're doing in your process. I didn't really add any value per se, other than maybe a younger perspective, but it was, I'll do whatever it is, I'll carry your books, I'll listen to you, just be in the conversation. And even though I couldn't honestly put my finger on specific elements that I learned during that time, but the demonstration that I was willing to learn effectively on my own dime was really valuable when I came to present my wares to potential employers in the city.

And where did that humility come from? Because I think a lot of people they get a degree, you know, nice physics, and they might have a disillusioned idea of where that places them in a career sense. But was there a harsh reality you had to face to say, okay, no, right, let's really earn my badges here?

I think I'm gonna have to put that down to my upbringing, if I'm really honest with you. Like, the humility is a quality that my parents really instilled in me at an early age, and for the longest time, I really thought it was a weakness. Because I would look at others around me who, and again, it's misplaced confidence, maybe they're cocky or they're very self-righteous and self, you know, very forthright. And humility is almost the antithesis of that. And so I was very much that kind of sensitive, quiet individual, don't speak up, don't say anything, because I was always doubting myself. So that was, in a bizarre way, I can look back at it now and say that was a weakness or that was a a lower quality that I had, but actually ended up serving me really, really well as a strength to say, take a step back, remove myself from the picture here and see, okay, what do I really need to do to get ahead here? And you know, I'm the son of two immigrants. My parents came over in the sort of '60s and '70s and they worked hard and they gave a lot. So there's a real solid work ethic and a level of humility that they've instilled in me. And it has its pros and cons, of course.

Yeah, I think a lot of careers is actually taking things that, you know, maybe were detrimental to you socially or, you know, scared out of you, uh, when you're younger and refining them and actually how you're learning how to bring them back into your personality in a way that can be advantageous to being someone people want to work with. Um, and, and I, I realized that there'll be somebody listening to this that's thinking, okay, this is me, like, you know, I see a lot of myself in this already. And a lot of what we like to do is, uh, add context to people that have gone on to achieve a lot of success in their career but, you know, started with those materials. Um, for that, for that person listening, what have you— what would you say you've done? What are some of your proudest achievements in your career?

Some of the proudest achievements in my career, really doubling down on the things that I thought, again, weaknesses, and using those to my advantage. So I'll give a few key turning moments in my career that I thought was a big challenge for me. So in my first professional role in the City of London, working for a large development management company, I regularly remember on my sort of 3-month, 6-month assessment, and we used to do like annual assessments, which would lead to bonuses and so on and so forth. I would regularly get the comment back when they looked at obviously the technical skills doing really well, softer side of things in terms of business and management, because we had to manage large teams. Zaf, you're too soft. You're too sensitive, Zaf. You need to be harder. You need to have a harder edge. You need to be a bit more mean in these meetings because you're representing the client, the big client. And so you've got to be the one who drives the team. It's like, okay, that's— I'll try. I'll do my best. But I think to take your question, the challenge was I was being asked to be someone I wasn't. I was a kind, sensitive individual. And that's who my parents had raised. And that was something that I was being told perpetually in my career was a weakness, but actually ended up becoming a strength because at the end of the day, people want to do business with people. And if you can make an impression with someone that you're a kind, warm, nice individual, then that's who they want to get to know and who they want to spend time with. And that enabled me to get my second job where it was amazing because I had a really great client relationship. And it was the client who effectively then poached me and said, we really like working with Zaf. He's really creative. He's really smart. He's really astute in his approach. And he's also a nice guy. Great. Let's have him in the team. And so it was the easiest, it was really fortunate. It was a really easy opportunity because I moved across to effectively a big private equity giant. And in the small team I sat in, my line director was just like, what do you want? And it was such a bizarre question to be asked in terms of package and pay. And it was kind of the big leap of faith that a lot of, I guess, people in the professional services and consultancy world want to make to become the client. And I was actually torn at the time, I'll be honest with you, Pete, because I had given a lot to this first company and they were really supportive to me. And I always felt like, am I betraying them? But actually, let me go back to my core, what's right for me and my family at the time. And that was really the key thing. And going forward, again, leaning into what I was told were my weaknesses, being sensitive, being kind, being a nice person. The connections I've made over 10, 15, 20 years have been the connections that people are very happy to pick up with me now. So what feels like it might be a weakness today, keep working on it and understand where is it coming from. And I think there's some great tools out there now which enable people to become really self-aware. I do, I've done a huge amount of personal development therapy, real sort of deep work over the years. And that's really enabled me to step outside of myself and actually be grateful for those challenging times because actually that's enabled me to harden my skills and get better and better and better. And they say, I'm not calling myself a diamond, but diamonds form under pressure. And that's really when you really understand what skills you have to utilize to move yourself forward.

Yeah, for context, we met at a talk at the Developers Club that you were giving, and even though I was there for a brief amount of time, I was already very bought into your story. And I think something that was so amazing to see, you had all the success and you had these people's attention for your deliverables in terms of getting into real estate, for example, but the ability to actually take advice from somebody and, and really buy into it, I think comes down to the person who's giving it to you, right? And, and I think something that was, was very relatable was the struggles that you went through. And I think I want to know, you know, it seemed like you'd worked out yourself quite a lot by the time you got into your career and things started going well. What happened where, um, yeah where even though you were having success and progressing, what was going, going wrong in your career? What can students be mindful of to come in their career?

I think it's important to have moments of, and build time in for reflection. And this is one of the things that I, I didn't, and I didn't have historically. And that's cool. That has come from a good work ethic, whether that's my parents or the immigrant mentality, whatever you want to call it. You just head down, focus, keep moving forward, keep moving forward. And actually the idea of forgetting myself came almost at a very costly price, where I'd taken the leap of faith to leave private equity in the corporate world, six-figure salary, to start my first business and co-founded a business with my cousin at the time. And that was our venture into real estate development and really trying to innovate and pioneer a new form of living, effectively, uh, you know, a purpose-built shared living, effectively flat shares but in a purpose-built manner. This was going back to 2016. So even though it's now a little more prevalent, it was very early back then. But the thing that I completely didn't— I lost sight of was I was losing myself. And the big shiny entrepreneur journey was kind of there in front of me. So I had my business partner who was young, single, living in a penthouse in central London, driving a really fast car, amazing, and had a life that I was kind of thought I wanted. And the cost of that was I was forgetting my wife, my kids, and my own personal health. And so there may have been financial success, money in the bank and whatnot, but at what cost? And the cost that really came for me was where I couldn't square the circle between the time I was giving to the business and the time I was giving to my wife and my family. And I was the one who was just worn out in the middle. And then I decided, well, Thankfully, obviously sitting here today, I didn't take that route, but I became very suicidal. I had serious depression and had no idea how to handle the situation. And that's when I started to seek help from a psychotherapist and really talk through the challenges I was going through. And what was interesting in that initial process of personal development was, Zaf, every time you talk about other people, it's always about other people. It's about how you serve someone else. You've never— and this is something that I will never forget, my therapist in probably our second session was like, never do you talk about what you need and what you want. And so I just forgot myself. And that was really kind of the opening for me to go on a bit of a journey of exploration. And I think it's important to take moments at whatever stage you are in your career, whether— and going through a degree is very intense and it can be very full on. And whether you're driving to achieve a grade for yourself, your parents, or whatever is driving you, you don't know. I think it's always important to try and understand your push and pull factors. Are you driving towards something because you really want to achieve it? Are you running away from something because you want to achieve something to change your status? I think it's important to take those moments for reflection. So yeah, that's what I would say.

I'm somewhat obsessive, maybe to, uh, to the detriment at times of how you can make learnings before really bad things come about. And so I guess I keep learning that you do to some extent need those penny drop moments. But is there any words of wisdom you can give to a student in terms of arming themselves with how they can really start finding out about themselves and self-discovery before anything has happened?

It's a really good point, actually. And I think it's funny, as a parent, I'm constantly having the same discussion with my wife and saying, oh, we need to let our son go and make those mistakes for himself. But naturally, you want to protect them. But in protecting them, you're also robbing them of the potential learning experience. So I think what I would say to your question would be, for students, anyone listening or anyone who's interested, is to surround yourself with a strong network of people. And it doesn't need to be loads. It might be 2 or 3 people that you check in with on a regular basis. You share what's going on with you. Hey, I'm trying something new. I'm just going to share unequivocally how I'm feeling, what I'm doing. And if you're sharing voice notes, you're going out for a drink, whatever the case may be, it's someone you check in with. It doesn't need to be a co-founder. It doesn't need to be a family member. It can be whoever you so choose. Call them an accountability buddy. So if they, and you know that they've got your back. So if something starts to go awry, they can say, is everything okay? You've got someone to check in. And the challenge that I had, and I know people who have unfortunately not had the support system in place, is I didn't have anyone to check in with. And it had to then be professional help. So I would still encourage to go and stand on, push yourself and try because there is nothing better than learned experiences, but there's great biographies out there. Success leaves clues. And I think biography is better than self-help, books. So whether that's, you know, biography of Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, and the various other great founders and entrepreneurs that have come before us. But what you will learn from all of that is you've got to try something. And you might try 5 different things before you find that 6th thing that sticks and is like, this is great, this is what I want to do, I find my passion. And there's nothing wrong with meandering through different opportunities. But I think again, the key thing that I was missing, that I would always go back and advise younger individuals to do is surround yourself with people that have your back.

Yeah, I think in the context of this conversation, the— I think it's a really powerful message about, you know, biographies and, and what, what they actually do in terms of just putting something out in the world without any, you know, instructions or bias on how you should do something. You know, in this, in this age of gurus and people telling you what you should and shouldn't do, I think it's really important to take a stand against that and develop your own opinions, you know, whether that's career advice How does it relate to you in that very specific circumstance of time? Um, and, and yeah, I think that that's great advice, generally speaking, to students. Um, yeah, while I've got you here, I should probably ask some questions about, uh, the world of developing and real estate. I think a pretty misunderstood industry, if I'm right in saying that. What, what does a career in, in real estate actually mean to you, and why would you advertise it not You know, take money aside, why is it a great place to be?

I think the real estate industry has a bad rap, and development specifically, because developers are often seen as money-hungry, greedy people who are doing wrong by everyone else, and they piss off local neighbors and they piss off other investors. And, but actually the reason that most developers get into it, and you mentioned the Developers Club, and that's part of a sort of a decentralized club that I'm a part of. And what they do is they bring together SMEs who are all kind of pushing towards a unified goal. And I think if you believe that— no, take a step back. We're sitting in a building right now. It was built, it was designed by someone at some point. That's an architect. It had an engineer who decided how the walls and the frame and the structure would all come together. And they had an interior designer who put it all together. So many elements that pull this thing together that we use on a day-to-day basis, whether it's the buildings we work in, the streets we walk on, the houses we live in. The real estate's got— it impacts lives in such an incredible way. And so what greater way to try and impact community in a really positive way? And that's what— that was one of the reasons I wanted to get into real estate. And every time I felt myself moving away from, oh, I can create real impact, I needed to come back to that. So I would always encourage people, if you want to leave the world in a better place, there's fewer industries that can do it as well as real estate because it's the built environment. It's not glamorous in some elements depending on which way you want to be. And if you want to be creative, there's architecture, engineering, there's various different routes to go down. But I do think, again, if it's driven by, I really want to try and make a long-lasting difference, is a great way to do it.

And so you've, you've been in the industry for a while now.

Yeah.

What is something you wish you were told in the beginning that would have made the, the whole process a bit smoother or more seamless.

That the challenges of getting something off the ground, getting it off a page and built, are incredibly challenging. The journey from an idea or concept to a built asset is really tricky, and along the way there are innumerable risks. And you may never want to become a developer yourself or an entrepreneur in the space. You may just want to work in a real estate advisory practice or an investment house, but you're involved in that chain of idea concept to built environment. It's such a long journey. It can take, it can be as quick as, and this is obviously for people in the tech industry, it's like, this is just mind-boggling, as quick as a year and a half, 2 years. Or as long as 10, 12 years. I mean, it's, it's really incredible how things move. When you think about how fast we are evolving as a society, what you've designed 10 years ago potentially is going to be redundant even in 3, 4, 5, 10 years' time. So it's always, that's the challenge of trying to stay relevant and keep things moving. So I think the time period and the challenges would have been really useful to know, because I think there's an idea of, oh, you see these great buildings, you see these great houses, and you think, I want to build that. But actually, the time and the process, the risks, the planning, the investment, all of those things, it's just a real challenge to, to make it happen.

One of our favorite conversations we've had so far off camera was, was about the, uh, the real societal significance things like pedestrianization and community building, um, can have. And, and I think like a lot of careers, uh, when you look at almost any industry, it's like, it's very difficult to, to be really driven by like the societal change you can have, or, you know, how much impact as an individual you can make. But I can really see just how much change you can make if you, you know, do this industry justice. Um, for you, yeah, send a message to our audience of, you know, why this is actually a way more philanthropic impactful energy than, yeah, the naked eye might see.

I think we focus on maybe a community or a master plan or a part of London that's been changed for the better, and there'll be differences of opinions, of course. And the International Quarter or the Olympic Park in Stratford is a really interesting case study. Because it was a marker in London's history for being the host of the Olympic Games in 2012. The amount of work and infrastructure that went into creating that environment, from the arenas to the walkways, and then obviously now the accommodation, was a huge undertaking, and which had been running for, I think that project went on for about 12 years. I can't remember the number of jobs and creation it had, but it's now a destination. And what they did incredibly well there there was the LLDC, so the London Legacy Development Corporation, which is a company specifically set up to create the legacy of the Olympic Park, was now it's an incredible destination. People go, they can cycle around, and they very quickly, if they don't know, can take for granted just how amazing this is. It's a free space that people can go and utilize. And so if you think about the value that has to society, green spaces, clean areas, access to world-class facilities, if say they so choose. I mean, you can do like a, you can do an amateur's day on the velodrome, for example, and go and try out a velodrome and see what that's like. Or you can just go around the park and wander around. It's free parks for kids and various other things. That's a great example of almost the philanthropic side of things. Now, there's a cost to that. And of course, people will need to make money. And that's just the way in which the world goes round. So I think what we as a society of developers, or as a group of developers, and the royal we, need to do is do a better job in demonstrating there are challenges, there are risks, and there are real costs in producing things like this, because all we're seeing is money-hungry, greedy individuals. And yes, of course, it was several billion pounds that went into the Olympic Park, But again, the value that's created and a place that London is well known for. People come from all over the world to enjoy that space. And obviously with the stadium now, which is the home for West Ham, which in itself is also an arena and hosts events. So really thinking long term can really make a big difference. And that's something that I really enjoy looking at as well when I have opportunities and look at schemes and think, okay, what is this going to look like in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years' time? I like to take that long-term view. And that's really quite exciting because you can really shape the way in which people are interacting with the environment.

I want to ask a question I feel is, uh, quite off topic to careers and everything, but you know, I'm just interested in it, so I'm gonna ask it. But, um, I, I think like there's no telling how much a beautiful building, like, you know, a beautiful old building can have on your day or like, you know, just your general well-being. And I think You know, even though like modernity has brought about like more efficient buildings, more livable, all these kind of things, I think maybe the art of creating something like truly beautiful, um, has been lost a little bit in construction. Um, do you think that anybody like thinking about coming into the industry can bring that back into it, or is it a bit of a, you know, there's too much, uh, rigmarole and protocol when it comes to how buildings are designed now that you can't be as expressive as the part in the past.

It's a really interesting point, and I think there's absolutely scope for people to almost embrace what's gone before us, because you're right, there's a huge art— there's an artisan form in how buildings have been put together historically. And whether it's exposed beams and beautiful sort of high ceilings, vaulted ceilings, critter windows— and you started to see elements of that coming back over the last few years in the office space, for example, where they become really cool spaces to work in. And you'll have these, as I say, like warehouse buildings have been converted with exposed brickwork, and you really get to see the real side of what those buildings were. And there's beauty in that raw, in that raw history. You're seeing it less and less in the residential space, especially in more urban areas. And the challenge is, again, just commercially looking at it, the land values are too high. Therefore, how do you actually get an existing building to work or build with old methodology? It's not quite as efficient as you need to, and efficiency is time is money. But in areas where land value is probably slightly lower, you've got a chance to be a bit more expressive, or you're working on schemes that are a bit more, quote unquote, boutique. I think you absolutely can do that. And interestingly, one of the new partnerships I'm working on, we've got opportunities to start to do that in really sort of clever ways. And actually, some of these houses and these apartments you can build that have a real throwback to old styles, but with a modern twist, I think you really capture the imagination of where people want to live. I mean, it's so interesting in the rental market, for example, a Victorian house that's been really nicely repurposed, that's got the, maybe the crown molding and the sort of bay windows and all those elements is still rent hand over fist all day, every day, because they're just beautiful places to live and they're full of character. And so trying to bring that back at scale is really interesting. And I'm actually in the process of doing a bit of a study with an architect practice who really wants to do this. You asked a really pertinent question there, Pete. Absolutely.

Well, uh, without being in danger of inviting myself, if I could be a fly on the wall, 100%.

Yeah, come along, please.

I'd love to be there. Um, you— one thing you spoke about in your talk as well is the significance and power of mentorship, um, and how you can actually build that, like, the right mental relationship, both in terms of how much a mentee gives and takes and, and the actual mentor, right?

Absolutely.

What does an authentic, genuine mentorship relationship look like, and how can you get one?

It's a good question. I think I apply this to this approach, this approach to most things, whether it's a mental health practitioner or a mentor, mentee, or a coach, coachee, is chemistry. I think that's one of the first things a lot of people think, oh, so-and-so is on a pedestal, they're the CEO of said company, I want them to be my mentor. But chemistry is really, really important. And I think I would always invite individuals to go and try and— and look, it's always a challenge to try and get time in someone's diary to say, can you be my mentor? But I think as a mentee looking for a mentor, if you found someone speaking on stage and you like the way in which they've come across, let's say they've seen me on stage and they like what I have to say and the way in which I present myself and the level of authenticity and the vulnerability I bring, and that really resonates with them. That's part of the chemistry conversation that's been done, as opposed to Zaf on a page with a particular profile that looks really interesting for me. So I think that's one of the first things to check. And for me, I've had a few accidental mentors over my years in my career, and honestly, they have been instrumental in either steering me on the right path and keeping me on the right path. I mean, The extreme example was at one point I was ready to leave my first job because I just didn't feel like I was nurtured enough, surrounded by the right people and senior individuals to enable me to grow. I was kind of being left on the side. And there was one individual who kind of saw this, and I reached out to him, and he was, you know, he was also in the company. And he said, well, move over to my team, took me under his wing, and it genuinely felt like he took me under his wing. And what he taught me there had really put me back on, on the right path and was incredible. So I, I now do a huge amount of mentorship in both the real estate industry and other industries as well. And I think going about it, we have great tools and platforms now. LinkedIn is phenomenal for that, reaching out. But one thing I've— and I've, I've had the good pleasure of receiving requests for mentorship— you need to do something to stand out if you're reaching out. And I, I now, I regularly reach out for mentors if there's a part of my career that I want to learn. As an example, I'm looking at, okay, how do I grow the business I have now to potentially a, you know, several hundred million turnover business? And who's doing that? And they— who's also looking after multifaceted, complex teams of thousands of people? I'm not there yet, but that's where I want to be, going back to your point earlier. And so who do I learn from? Reach out to an individual. I love what you said on this particular panel of really, you know, value your time. And people like talking about themselves. So what do I need to say in that initial LinkedIn message to get their attention. So I'd always encourage individuals to reach out because the worst thing you can do is not at least try. And it might take one, it might take 10, it might take 50, but keep reaching out because when you find someone you can connect with, and if it's just your initial mentorship with a person, but then you have access to their network, that's another stepping stone. So I think I speak to a lot of young individuals, whether it's at events and The thing that they often do is they get very caught up in their own head. Why would, you know, a CEO of a company or a CFO of a company want to talk to me? I'm just a graduate, or I'm just a student. The perspectives I get as a mentor from younger individuals is incredible. You know, if I think I'm building— taking my real estate practice, for example— if I'm building a product that I think people want to live in, who better than to ask than a 20-something-year-old who is looking for that type of place now. So if I think I'm building this but actually they want that, well, surely I'll speak to the consumer, and they're also my mentee. So it's really, really valuable in that respect. So yeah, always encouraging young people to go out and do it. And, and it's also network building.

And so my, uh, my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my— every single one of my guests— is, uh, when you first started off in your career journey, you know, studying physics at Loughborough, you might have had a certain idea of what a successful career would go on to look like. Fast forward with everything you've learned, uh, and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Certainly changed a lot over the years. Um, I would have put success down to financial gain, material wealth, but it's not that at all. Yes, those things are important to sustain life, enjoy, have financial freedom, live, But fundamentally, it comes down to, are you living in line with your own core values? Are you living in line with your own authentic self? And if that means you want to be an entrepreneur, be an entrepreneur and do the absolute damnedest to be the best you possibly can in whatever field that may be. If you want to be working in a cafe as a barista, be the absolute best you can and own that. And that's success. You wake up feeling fulfilled and I'm living in line with what I want to do. And I've made the mistake historically of trying to get friends for example, oh, you could be so much more, you could do this, this, and this. But they're very, very content doing what they're doing. And that to them is their idea of success because they work their 9 to 5, they go home, they switch off, and that's it. I'm not wired that way. I do my 9 to 5, I go home, and I'm still switched on and I'm constantly working. And that's the, that's just the difference in mindset. So understanding, am I living in line with my core values? That's really what defines success for me.

Love it. Hey, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you. Pleasure being here.