5 Lessons Behind 700+ Podcast Conversations with Thought Leaders — Peter Winick

Peter Winick, welcome to the show. You have been on the asking end of over 700 podcast episodes, and now you're on the receiving end of my questions.

Yeah.

What is something that you wish more people asked?

Well, well, they do ask things like, you know, what is thought leadership? So there's a curiosity, but I think the better question is why should I think about thought leadership and how should I think about it and what's in it for me, why would I consider sort of practicing or studying or being a part of this or integrating this into what I do? I think that might be a better question.

Yeah. As far as your book goes, one of the things that I think felt like the most emotional part and one of the biggest parts is you talking about meeting Mark at the Sunset Hotel. Could you talk about that?

Yeah. You're gonna get me with the tearjerker. So Mark is Dr. Mark Goulston, who is a dear friend and mentor who passed 2 or 3 years ago. And when we met, I was working, I had just started working a couple of months with Keith Farazzi when we were launching Never Eat Alone. So this goes back to 2005, spring, summer, probably this time of year, 2005. And Mark had reached out to us and was intrigued by what we did. So I said, oh great. You know, I used to stay at the Sunset all the time, which is just like, for me, a kid from New York, this was like the anti-me hotel. It was total LA, total cool, total stargazing. Like, you know, every time you went there, there was another celeb and I'm there. So Mark says, oh, let, you know, I'll, you know, we'll meet for breakfast. So we meet for breakfast and we sit down and I'd read some of his work and I, I, it was, it was kind of interesting, but it, it wasn't mind-blowing yet. But the breakfast that we had was, was amazing. So he starts to talk to me, tell me who he is, introduce himself, and then he starts asking me these questions and I'm like, holy cow. You know, like, and, and, uh, uh, doing these activities. Oh, let me take out this thing and list these words and circle these things. And, and, um, you know, at the time my, my, uh, It was the, the beginning of the end of my first marriage. And it was not, I did not expect getting a therapy session and making a dear friend and mentor for life. And yeah, so Mark and I stayed, we became mutual mentors to each other, which was, which was kind of cool. And his work is amazing. He wrote a book called Talking, Just Listen, Talking to Crazy, Get Out of Your Own Way, Get Out of Your Own Way at Work, and just a really intuitive guy. And his, his secret. His, his superpower, if you will, was he was a psychiatrist by training, was that he could look somebody in the eye and we would bring him in to do work with CEOs of Fortune 50s or something, sit in on their executive team meeting. So now you have a CEO with his top 5 lieutenants or her lieutenants or whatever, and he'd be able to look the CEO in the eye and he says, you know, your problem is this one hates you but won't say it out loud. And then your CFO doesn't trust you and this, and you're, and, and he would just call the bullshit out straight up. And there might have been 2 reactions to someone doing that. One is a right hook, right? But the react most got from Mark is they were shaken and kind of didn't know what to do and would either shed a tear or hug him, you know? And they were never even tempted with violence. But it was like, if you read the transcripts of what he said and how, and just the words, it would be like, oh my God, that's amazing. But he did it with such love and such empathy and from a place of carrying an insight versus, you know, criticism and all that. So anyway, that's my Mark story.

Yeah. It's so interesting you say that, Peter, because that's one thing I picked up on your book as well, is the tone of it is kind of more straightforward instead of beating around the bush. You know, you'd prefer to use your frameworks, like we're gonna get into the 5 avatars or something that's specific to actual, like actionable steps. Do you think that Mark inspired you to have that, I wouldn't say framework, but the tone of your book?

I think to a degree, I think the, the way we chose the tone was really having to square the circle, right? There were two things that needed to happen in the book. We've got 20 years, meaning Bill Sherman and I, of models, methods, frameworks, processes, and such that we've developed and deployed and used effectively for years with hundreds of thought leaders. So we know it works, but if you were to publish a book of frameworks, it would read like a physics text. Textbook, right? And who the hell wants to read that? So the other thing we had is life experience stories, case studies, the transcripts of over 700 episodes of podcasts. So the, the, the thing we had to deal with is how do you take that body of work? Because it's easy to, it's, it's easy to put in a book, here's a framework and a method and a process, right? It's a couple pages, you describe it, here's an equation, here's a definition. Like that's really easy, but it only connects at an intellectual level. And to get people to connect, you need to integrate a story as well. So we went back, to the transcripts, it was 2.3 million words. To give you the context of what that means, besides it's a lot of words, a typical business book, 250 pages is like 50,000, 60,000 words, right? So just the transcripts to get through that. And we, and we use chat to help us with that, to find things, not to create things. And I think that's a key differentiator. And we would say to it, okay, based on the 5 avatars or the 4 elements or whatever our frameworks are, gimme 3 examples of a former CEO of a publicly traded company that then became a thought leader and what their first year was like. And it was like, boom, 'cause I have the problem of not remembering what I had for breakfast, let alone an amazing conversation I might've had 6 years ago. So that helped us set the tone of how do you, how do you do this? Bound— we didn't wanna write a textbook, right? Some people think a handbook is a textbook. It's not. It's got great stories and examples and all that sort of fun stuff of people that you may know and people that you may never heard of.

Yeah. You mentioned that you had, you know, the 20 years of experience and the 2 million words of debt, right? Of the, I, I think you called it library debt.

Yeah.

What were some of those things that when you used ChatGPT and it kind of reminded you of things you might've talked about in the first like 50 episodes or something early on, were there any things that you were like, oh wait, I forgot about this, but it's core to the things that you teach?

Yeah, I would, I would say there's a couple things. So if someone were to say to me, so Bill and I, Bill Sherman, when we were starting on the book process, we were mindstorming around, okay, let's, let's come up with a story of this or that or whatever. And we came up with, you know, like whatever, a dozen really, really good stories. And I'm like, we can't rely on my brain or yours to remember. It's, they're just not effective, effective tools, right? Like, like I'm, I spend a lot of time looking for my keys, right? So then we're like, wait a minute, how do we, you know, we had two choices to make. We knew the, the, the depth of the work of the podcast that we've worked on for 8 and a half years had stuff. And we're like, okay, we got two choices. We're gonna hire 6 interns, spend a lot of money, buy a lot of beer and pizza. Figure out, and, and it's gonna take months and months and months and months. And who wants to manage 6 interns? Like, all due respect to interns, whatever. So we did figure out how to use it, right? And, and we figured out how to use it effectively. So I would say that 80% of the stories in there were not things that came top of mind, but when it reconnected, 'cause don't forget, our models have evolved and changed and such over time. So it might have been, and there were many cases where Uh, somebody told us a story and we didn't really have the model or the framework developed 7 years ago at the level it is today. And it's like, ah, that makes much more sense. You know, that story actually helped us and we didn't even realize it as an input into validating a model or a methodology or a framework.

Yeah. Um, unfortunately, Peter, you are looking at an intern, so some bad news for you in the morning.

But no, listen, I have nothing against interns. I, I just don't, yeah. 6 of them. I love it.

Yeah, I totally understand. Don't worry. Um, I probably wouldn't want 6 either. Um, but kind of going back a little bit to what you're talking about, because you were saying the power of stories and a little bit like kind of closing the loop on Mark, you included in the book the fact that Mark helped you through your father's death. And I think that was a very emotional part of your book, and it's very honest. In a book that has all of, you know, the experiences, kind of frameworks that we talked about as well in the background, why did you choose to include that?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think that, um, A, you know, there are sort of thought leaders that do two things. One is they only present what they present. Here's my stuff. When I'm on, I'm only talking about my stuff, et cetera. But my vantage point over the last 20 years is I've got to know all, you know, so many of them on a personal level as well as a professional. And for most, whether they, Um, talk about it a lot. The reason they do what they do is really me search. Why did they choose to solve this problem? Why did they choose to solve this body of work? Usually comes from a personal story, right? So I think, um, the level of transparency and vulnerability and all that you choose matters. And, um, for me, I was like, well, you know, I, I'm not gonna write 10 books, right? So if I'm in, I'm all in. Let me put stuff in there and I'm not, My, I had a therapist at one point told me she would ask me to describe a feeling. I probably shouldn't say this out loud, and I would do my best and she would ask me again and she'd say, okay, you can't even describe a feeling. Let me explain to you what they are. So I'm not Mr. Emotion. Like I don't have a long list of people calling me for empathy coaching or something like that. So I chose to share that cuz it was a, it was a critical point for me and it was an important point for me. And I think more to honor Mark. It wasn't about me, about how he was, um, just an example of how helpful and how much of a special guy, uh, he was. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting. Um, I, I'll just tell you one other quick thing. So we're going through our whole process now as the book is, is, is being launched of thanking the people that helped us, right? So it's everyone that gave us a testimonial, everyone that we talk about in the book's about 100 people. And we divided up the list, Bill, Naren, and myself over, you know, who's got the, the relationship with each. And I reached out to Mark's wife and told him that I want to, told her that I want to send her a copy of the book. And she's like, it was nice to hear from you, whatever. And she has no idea, you know, she said some great, you know, Mark really loved you and all this stuff. And I can't wait to ship a copy of the book to her with a letter that's going to happen next week. So I'm excited about that.

Yeah. Well, that's amazing. That's interesting. You say like emotional and vulnerability when you get to know people on a personal level, just because I think everybody has like something, everybody has maybe a negative experience, something that drives them to do certain things. You know, I feel like when I talk to maybe friends or people on this podcast and I do get to know them a little bit better, they're like, okay, they're CEOs of this company, for example, right? Or they wrote a book and then you kind of dig more deep into it and it's like, yeah, I did this because early on maybe it was a little bit tougher for me. You know, maybe it's like I was talking to David Shinderman. He has like a a service for lawyers, and he said something very interesting. He said, usually the, the pain points and the darkest points of your times are the biggest leverage for you to be able to turn it into something valuable to help other people. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I, you know, I think that's true. I think people tend to, particularly when you're thinking people that have a public profile and you ask somebody, what do you know about so-and-so? It's always the highlight reel. Oh my God, they won the Nobel Prize. Oh my God, they're, you know, New York Times bestseller. Oh, you know, it's not, oh my God, they suffer from depression. Oh my God, they, they, they lost a spouse to cancer. Like, that's usually not what comes out, right? What comes out is what's presented, which is typically the, the highlight reel. And I think what you're saying is we all have a lowlight reel, if you will, and we choose to share that. Yeah. It's easy to share the highlight. Here's my accomplishments. Look how smart I am. Look how great I am.. But I think oftentimes the, you know, not just the failures, but the low points are, are, uh, where the learning happens. There, there's a, um, actually Mark taught me this. It's, um, I might be getting this wrong, but you know, people talk about post-traumatic stress syndrome, but there's post-traumatic growth as well that doesn't get as much attention.

What does that mean?

Yeah, I'm, I'm not a, a, a therapist, but that people come out of trauma growing. It's not just that, you know, we, we know post-traumatic stress is, is a bad thing, right? People are, have been exposed to trauma or whatever, you know, and it affects them a long time. But, but the flip side of that, to some, that was a pivotal moment that turned it into something positive, to make a commitment to do something to, to grow as a result of that.

Yeah. So in, in your impact equation, uh, I thought this is very interesting. So the equation was idea simplicity times audience relevance times velocity times audience share. And something that I thought was interesting that you left out was idea quality. So I want to ask, do you think that a mediocre idea that's well deployed beats a really high-level idea that might never get outta like the files or again, outta the bubble?

So I don't know if it beats it. What I do know is life isn't fair, right? So I think about that and when I, when I look at clients, I call it the steak to sizzle effect, right? So when I'm dealing with someone with a, that's more academic, they might have a lot of steak. There's a lot of meat on the bone. Like this is really stuff, right? Then I look on the other end and I'm like, wow, that's all sizzle. And then you, you, you know, you click through and you look through and you're like, where's the, where's the beef? Like, where's like, there's no there there. So if all you have is sizzle, those people don't have the ability to develop the steak. If you have the steak, you can, you can add a little bit of sizzle to that is how I would think about that. And if your duty is to get the idea out there, even though it might not be how you're wired or how you think or whatever the case is. Like academics are trained to write in a certain way and it's typically unreadable, right? When you think about academic journals, ugh, they're like, A, nobody reads them. So these poor academics spend years and years and months and hours and whatever to write the, you know, publish this 20-page journal that 7 people will read, right? You know, and those academics that could cross over and communicate effectively do far better. But I think, you know, to your point, yeah, life's not fair. There's some crap ideas, some ideas that are invalid, that are buzzy, buzzy, buzzy, and people are talking about it and, you know, whatever, whatever. But I think the, the, the way to think about it as a thought leader is, you know, what am I doing to get the idea out in the right way, in the right place? That's authentic, right? Like you don't, not everybody's gonna be a Tony Robbins, thank God. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Peter, talk to me about the 5 avatars.

Yeah. So the way the, the 5 avatars came to be is we didn't hypothesize them and then, you know, we didn't develop a model first. We'd been in the field and in the market for a long, long time. And we said, you know, there's some, there's some distinct patterns that we see here. There's some things that we see here that are consistent, right? And I think part of the struggle that thought leaders have is they're the only thought leader they know, right? So they don't see a lot. Like if you're an accountant, you, it's easy to find a bunch of other accountants to talk to, or a lawyer or a doctor or whatever. So we looked in and said, you know, there's some, there are some distinct characteristics of thought leaders and it's not really about the, 'cause, 'cause at some level they all do the same things. They write books, they speak, they advise, they consult, they coach. It's not about that. It's really about what's driving them. What are their motivations? Where are they coming from? Right? So you get someone at a, at a later stage in their career, and they might be more focused on legacy. Would be odd for a 22-year-old to be legacy focused, right? Then you have folks that are, you know, incredibly successful. They're, they're rocking and rolling. They're a thought leader on the run, right? So we just started to think about it and, and Bill and I would, would start to say, you know, there's patterns. And we played with different terminology over the years. And then as we were getting a new client, you know, here and now it's, oh yeah, that's a thought leader on the run. Oh, that's a legacy. That's a, you know, whatever. And it would be easy to, identify. It's not a per— you know, no model is perfect and there are people that have dominant, uh, tendencies in one but have, uh, parts of another. But I think what happens with it is, and we've used it hundreds of times, people can easily, um, identify who they are, right?

Which one most resembles them, which is helpful because I, I feel like then you can understand who you are and then use what you have in your resources to your advantage or disadvantage. Uh, one thing that I was thinking about while you were talking about it is you mentioned how you had the experience before you made the framework. And for me, it's interesting that maybe some people might make some type of framework before they have enough experience for it. So I'm going to have an interesting time wording this, Peter, but at what point do you think people can, because a lot of thought leaders, you know, they might report on like how your company can improve accounting. There's a lot of nuances in thought leadership and they might have all of these frameworks, but how do you know if you have enough experience to make a framework or if it's merely more metaphorical.

Yeah, I, so I would think about it slightly differently, but not too differently. I think there's stuff that comes, I'm a practitioner, right? I'm not an academic, right? I'm in, I'm in the market every day working with people every day. So my input comes from that. Others might be academics where they're coming at it in the ivory tower, more abstract, more research-based, more, more whatever. So I think I did, you know, the, it could come from either, but in either cases, whether, you know, it's someone like me that's a practitioner or an academic that comes up with thought leadership, you know, writing, researching, whatever, both have to have a hypothesis, right? So every avatar that you see there, Bill and I didn't just say, this is it. Those are the 5 avatars. So be it. Like, it was really a hypothesis. Does this really hold or is that one client that resembles this one? An anomaly. And we're like, no, actually, you know, so sometimes the, the validation is forensic. Like we could look at someone, maybe we didn't even work with them and say, you know, it's really clear to me that, uh, uh, you know, someone like a, like a Bill George who is the former, um, CEO of Med, of, uh, Medtronic, um, was a lega— is, is a legacy thought leader, right? So we could look at that and that helps us test a hypothesis. Now, the other thing that can happen when you test a hypothesis, and it happened is Yeah, that just doesn't work. Like that's just not, it doesn't hold water or whatever the case is. But I think that whether the, the kernel of the idea comes from being in the field or being in academia or just a, you know, the lightning bolt that hits you in the head says, I got an idea. Like, okay, that's cool. You could, you could quantitatively and/or qualitatively sort of validate that.

What was one of the ideas from the book that kind of like lightning hits you in the head?

One of the ideas from the book that light— Probably, um, I think the equation, because Bill and I were really thinking about, we like equations, you know, and, and Bill's far more quanti and analytical than I am. And we're like, could you represent like what this journey looks like in the form of an equation? 'Cause that's an odd thing to do. And then I was like, I was thinking about other clients that we've worked with over the years that have used an equation in a counterintuitive way. So I'm thinking specifically of Chip Conley, who wrote an amazing, amazing book. He wrote many, but one was called Emotional Equations. And the, the hypothesis behind that is, you know, we'll use right brain, left brain, even though that's not a perfect model, but there are right brain, yeah, brain people, right? The right brain people are driven by, by emotion and left brain people are driven by analytics. Again, the world's not perfectly black and white. And what Chip's hypothesis was is the right brain people get the emotional stuff. The need, the, the people that need to understand emotional intelligence better for their own development, their own career, their own success are the left-brain people, the engineer types, the science types, analytic. That's just not intuitive to them. But what if we met them where they were? What's their go-to? An equation, right? So if you would disguise emotions as an equation, they look at it as a problem to solve and say, oh, increase the numerator, decrease the denominator. This is easy, right? So we love that sort of framing. So the lightning bolt was, and then it took a lot of work sessions to say, Jeez. Well, what, what might the equation be?

So one thing that I was interested in, I'm not too sure if you'd know this because Bill wrote this, but in chapter 12, he said that he locked many of his own core ideas behind the consulting fee paywall. What does that mean? Do you know?

Yeah, I think what he would mean by that is, is, and everybody's got a different place there, is, you know, we're unleashing a lot of ideas, a lot, a lot of ideas that we have spent years and years and, and a ton of money and a ton of time of energy developing up until the book being published. How did you get exposed to that idea? Well, you paid us, right? That's, we weren't giving that away. We're giving, well, I'm not giving it away. You gotta buy the book or you'll see stuff, whatever. So we're in essence giving away a lot of that stuff, which quite frankly is something that we preach to our clients, right? Like when you think about one of the best thought leadership books ever written, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, there's not 5 habits in there and they don't get to chapter, you know, 19 say, and mail us another $100 to get, you know, the 6th out. Like, it doesn't work like that. And I think that there is absolutely a place in a market for someone that will just buy a book, read a book, and say, that was cool. And there's a different market for someone that says, can you help me through this journey? And then there's another market for what's a other variation of the theme where maybe I can do it myself, or it's a video-based training or a chat-based solution or an assessment tool or whatever. So I think that you gotta have a paywall somewhere. You're not gonna get unlimited access to Bill and I for free, 'cause that just, that doesn't work. But you know, we're our, you know, one of our hopes is that, you know, tons of people read this book that couldn't have been able to afford us or work with us for whatever reason, could take advantage of the ideas that we've got and, and get to where they want to go.

Peter Winick: Peter, one of the things that I feel like shine right through you, not only your enthusiasm, but It seems like you're very optimistic and it might be because you're surrounded by so many people that are doing such amazing things and have all these amazing ideas. But unfortunately, something that I've come across a lot, especially having this podcast, is outside people might have like a bad view of thought leadership for whatever it is. They might think, oh, this person's just trying to make some money or the things they're talking about doesn't make sense. Why do you think that sometimes thought leadership gets a bad rep?

Yeah, I listen, everything gets a bad rep. Like how many, how many people love their lawyer, right? I have a ton of friends that are lawyers. I'm not typically a big fan of lawyers, right? So I think that specifically with thought leadership, um, there, uh, there's a trend where it's become a bit of a buzzword. So when I started Thought Leadership Leverage back in 2008, the buzzy thing then was guru, and it made me nauseous, like, like people calling themselves gurus and So I, you know, named the company Thought Leadership Leverage. It's, that's what we do. We help people leverage their thought leadership, right? So I think that one, people don't have a working definition of what it is. They don't know what they mean by it. People are calling themselves thought leaders. There's something cool and sexy and whatever. When I was your age, that term wasn't used. The term was probably dork, nerd, You know, whatever. So you got your nose in a book, whatever it was. So, you know, if people wanna throw stones at thought leadership, come at it. Like, that's cool. I don't really care. Like, you know, I know what I mean by it. I know what the people I work with mean by it. Are there people that are putting stuff out there that's absolutely not thought leadership and calling it thought leadership? Sure. You know, there's a place in the world for content marketing. There's a place in the world for motivation. There's a place in the world for other things, but Not everything is thought leadership.

Yeah. What do you think classifies in that bucket of thought leadership?

What is it? I mean, there's lots of things that classify that. Are, are, are, are the ideas, are you adding to the conversation? Are you, um, uh, why would I listen to you? Right? Why, why you? Why now? What is it that you have to say? How are you saying it? Is it based on research? Is it based on experience? So it's not just the message, it's who's delivering the message, right? Like, so I, again, not to beat up on 22-year-olds, who the hell hires a 22-year-old life coach? You might be a great coach, but you don't have enough life. Like it's just, right. You know, if you're a 50-year-old adult that's going through some real stuff, I don't think you're searching the internet and go, oh, that 22-year-old life coach, that's probably the one that's gonna do it for me. And maybe that's reverse ageism by me. Just, it makes no sense. Like I wouldn't, you know, if I had a brain tumor and the selling point to the brain surgeon was, hey, I'm really looking forward to your surgery. It'll be my first one. That's not a selling point. You know, I want, there's places I wanna see, show me you've done this 50 times before. Show me, you know, why you know what you know. Right. Yeah.

That's very interesting because as a 21-year-old, like, kinda like we're talking about, especially somebody that's inundated in this space, like I see these people helping everyone and it makes me wanna do the same. And things like, because of my podcast, because of some life experiences, I wrote a book on communication and I used to have social anxiety disorder. I overcame it, but that's something that I've really struggled with is like, the imposter syndrome of like, okay, like, do I know? Like, yeah, I've had the experiences. Yeah, I've overcame it. But like, I just, you know, it's kind of like this in-between where I'm young and I understand why people older than me are like, okay, you can't be a life coach. You're 22. You don't have life. But like, for me, it's just this interesting in-between that I'm kind of stuck. So I'm not sure, you know?

Yeah. So, so let's, let's play with that. So for someone like you that's overcome the anxiety issues and all that and done what you've done and accomplished what you've accomplished, there's probably a market to work with either parents of someone like you X number of years ago when you had that, or kids going through that to say, why the hell would I hire this guy? Well, you know, when he was 16 or whatever it was and he did this and he did that, that's why, right? So you're, you're, you're eating your own dog food, right? You're, you're, uh, a case study, uh, in your own stuff. It's like some of these, you know, biohackers. Why do you listen to that? I'm like, you know, would you go and hire a trainer that was 40 pounds overweight that was smoking? I'm gonna say probably not, right? You need to be authentic and walk the talk and say, there's a reason I work with so-and-so.

Yeah, that, that's very interesting. That's great. Peter, my last question to you is in your 700+ episodes, in your many interviews you've done and in the book that you've written, if everything, I guess, yeah, if everything was to disappear overnight, but you could leave one message with everybody in the world, based on what you do, what would that message be?

Uh, if I could leave one message, that's interesting. I would think if you're called to explore, examine, something's gnawing at you to figure out, go for it, right? Whether it has a commercial application, an obvious commercial application, whether there's, it's a competitive space, you know, there's a million excuses to say no. Most of the most successful thought leaders I know, you know, were drawn to something for some reason or series of reasons. They didn't look, you know, they didn't do a competitive analysis of the market and said, you know, there, there's an opportunity. Yeah, that's interesting. Go in, in negotiations, right? Like if I were, if you and I were to brainstorm around, let, let's, let's go to Chicago where you live and open another pizzeria, right? We'd say, well, okay, there's a lot of pizzerias here. What's our niche gonna be? Are we gonna go gluten-free? Are we gonna go, low end of the market towards college kids? Are we gonna go high end and do a, what, like we'd have to find a differentiator, then we'd have to find a loca— like we'd have to go through a whole series of basic business things. Most thought leaders do that way later, right? Yeah. You know, they, they, they, they hit the idea and say, I need to solve this. And if I, you know, and I, I've heard dozens of thought leaders said to say to me, you know, I wrote the book for me. The fact that somebody else could benefit from it, that's cool too. You know?

That's amazing. Peter, where can people find you at? Any links, any shoutouts?

Yeah, so you could, uh, uh, find me at the website thoughtleadershipleverage.com. You could email me at peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com and all the typical socials. And then the book obviously is The Thought Leadership Handbook, which will be out, uh, which is out as of July 21st.

To all my listeners, thank you so much for listening. Definitely check out Peter's book. It's an amazing read, and I'll see you guys next Tuesday. Bye.