Leveraging Thought Leadership Live featuring James Kerr and Nadia Bilchik

And welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on Leveraging Thought Leadership, the LinkedIn Live edition. So here we are. Let me introduce to you my 2 guests and then we'll dive right in. So 2 guests today. So my first guest is an old friend, Nadia Bilchik. Nadia and I have known each other, I think, about 15 years. She's the president of Greater Impact Communication. She's anchored and hosted a bunch of feature programs on CNN. She is an author. She's a speaker. She's a presenter. And then my other guest is Jim Kerr, who's a superb presenter. He's written multiple books. He's a consultant. He's an advisor. He's a coach. And instead of spending half the show telling you how great these two are, let's just dive in. So welcome, Nadia. Welcome, Jim. And you two know each other, so that should give us a little help on the chemistry side.

Yes, I was just saying how wonderful this is. Instead of having coffee at Starbucks, Starbucks. Here we are on LinkedIn Live.

Yeah, exactly. So here we are, we're, I don't know, 18 months or whatever into this, and all of our businesses, all of our worlds have changed. So let's— what I want to start with today, and we were chatting about this a little bit earlier, is, you know, what's the same and what's different, right? So we're still serving clients, we're still delivering value based on our domain expertise, But the formats and the modality. So let me start with you, Nadi, because on the presentation and communication side, it might be more obvious on your world. So maybe start with some of your traditional work, presentation skills training, communication training, etc., all in person, coming from your on-air skills. And what does that look like now?

So we've all had to navigate this virtual world. And I think the biggest thing that we realize is we have to be so much more intentional. So if Jim and Nadia and Peter were sitting together having a conversation in person, it would be so organic. We could read body language. And over the last 18 months, we've had to do this in a very fabricated, very artificial environment. So things like, if I was looking at you and Jim in person, I'd be looking into your eyes, which would be lovely because you're both so lovely. But now I'm having to do it through my webcam. And I want to look at Peter and I want to look at Jim, but the way that I'm doing it is looking with the middle of my eye parallel into my camera so that it looks like I'm looking at you. That's not natural. So we're having to learn so much technique about how to connect with another person in a way that is not organic. And what I've been doing, Peter and Jim, over the last 18 months is helping people really engage and connect and have conversations in a way that is much, much more intentional than ever before. So now we went from doing it virtually to doing it in a hybrid world, and that means acquiring new skills and new techniques.

Yeah, so stay with that new skills piece, 'cause I think that applies to all of us. So if you think about, you know, a keynote speaker pre-COVID, they knew how to work the room. They knew how to create an environment through music and lighting. And, you know, everything was staged to the entrance and the closing and all that sort of stuff. And a lot of that is about being big and somewhat over the top and finding a couple people in the audience to connect with and all that. And if you move to this world and use those skills, you, you look like a hyper-caffeinated infomercial salesperson, right?

So now you have to become very technically proficient. Now, my friend Jim Kerr, who is indispensable, um, probably was much more technically proficient before I was, but as speakers We've had to navigate our virtual platforms masterfully, and we've had to learn to use our slides. But a tip that I give everybody is you've got these big slides on your screen, but don't put baby in the corner. So who's baby? Your baby and Jim's baby. So sometimes when you're sharing slides, go off the slide share so that you're connecting back with your audience. So I spent my whole career in front of a television camera. Now having to do it via webcam, we're having to acquire new skills. And you said it, Pete, when you speak to Jim shortly, and I'm excited to hear from him, Jim is not going to do a large performance because you're this close to the camera. So your whole voice modulation and the way you talk is totally different than if you're commanding on a large stage.

Yeah, exactly. So Jim, you, I mean, you, you do some keynotes and such as well, but most of your work is more on the consulting and coaching side. So how has it changed your world the last 18 months?

Well, you know, as Nadia mentioned, the lack of face-to-face has required new skills. And it took a bit of effort to really be able to get the coaching and the consulting work to work in a virtual way because very much my work's face-to-face. I'm up in front of a whiteboard, I'm capturing notes, I'm facilitating conversations, and so on. So to be able to do that in a virtual world was a bit of a trick. But I will say this, you know, again, we're 18 months into this already, but the clients that I work with have all been able to transition well. They're very comfortable with the medium, and we're, you know, able to kind of do the same stuff That we used to do in person through this sort of, you know, virtual world. The good news for somebody like me who spent 30 years in a plane traveling to clients and so on and living in hotel rooms much of the time, I'm wondering if I'm going to ever have to go back to that. I kind of think that we've proven that we don't need quite as much of that kind of interaction. when we can do the work the way we've been doing it the last 9 years?

Well, and I think that's a huge issue, Jim, because, you know, all of our work initially was always, always, always face-to-face. And, you know, when I think about why, I'm not really sure why, right? Like, it's just the way it was done, right? And we were pretty nervous early on around, will we be able to deliver the value? Will we be able to deliver the goods to the clients? if we're not in a room? Because I'm also one that thought I got all my energy from the smell of a whiteboard marker, right? Like, you get up there and genius happens and magic happens and all that. And we had to re-engineer the way that we do the things and such, but the what is still the same, right? The models, the methodologies, the framework, the outcomes are the same. We had to fiddle with some technology and all that sort of stuff. You know, I think the pieces that we miss are the connection. Right. It's great to meet a client or a friend or a colleague for the first time and, you know, break bread or have a glass of wine or 3 or whatever. But I think the bar is now higher when we get back to normal, whatever that may be, right? To say, hey, let's have an adult conversation. We could do this in person. Is it really necessary? And by the way, if we're going to do it that way, the pricing is going to be different because we can deliver it remotely.

Right.

And I think this for keynoters and consultants and stuff, the underbelly here is a little bit of, yeah, we needed to charge what we needed to charge for the work that we were doing. And even if we had all the hacks, the executive club and all this other stuff at the airport, there's a lot of dead time, right? For me to even go to Atlanta, which is a couple-hour flight from New York, to do a 2-hour meeting, it's pretty much 2 days of my life, right?

And what you miss out on, what one misses out on is if you came to the Atlanta meeting, We would chat before your presentation. We'd have dinner the night before. You'd get to know people. So yes, it was much more time-consuming. But what I say now to people is you have got to be very skilled at creating those moments of chitchat and those moments of deep getting to know you beyond the square on the screen. And I just see that Mark Angelos has joined us, who is a dear friend of mine. And Mark and I have actually never ever met in person, but we have connected connected virtually. And Mark, thank you for your comments. Mark is in marketing, and we talk. I know how many kids he has. I know his background. I know what his challenges are. I know what's working out well for him. So it's the skills to have that conversation where I say to my client that I had to meet with this morning, Jenny, how are your kids doing? And I know the ages of her children and have a real conversation. And then to be able to say, I like this question. What's your biggest challenge at the moment? Now, I'm curious to know if I ask Peter or Jim or Nadia, what's your biggest challenge? You'll be as personal or professional, but you've got to be skilled at doing that. You can't just get onto your virtual meeting, start the meeting, end the meeting. I've spent a lot of time asking people, and I've collated a lot of data on what people's challenges are. And what it's come down to is, I miss the human connection.

Yeah.

People are disengaged. They don't have their camera on. So something as simple as, Peter, how did you get your name? I've never actually asked you that. And Jim, I don't know how you got your name, but asking people that in a team meeting, something that helps us build a bond, something that helps us go beyond just the business.

You know, so stay there for a minute. So your first book, and I'm drawing a blank on the name now.

It's on networking. Own Your Network.

Own Your Network, right? So one of— so your earliest book, or the earliest one that I can recall, was on networking. And that was written in a physical world. And a lot of it was sort of the strategies and tactics on how to be authentic and transparent in a physical environment, not just selling life insurance and all that. And I think as you're talking, I'm thinking some of the best moments of a meeting in person used to happen 5, 10 minutes before as people are congregating. And then as the meeting left, hey, Jim, let's walk down the hall together. You made that good point. Let's go grab a cup of coffee.

Absolutely.

And the technology You know, leans towards efficiency. A meeting starts and ends, and ends at a, you know, starts and it ends, and that's it. And there's none of that time. I think from a networking perspective, we have to create and schedule those opportunities to just reach out and say, hey, Nadia, we haven't— and you and I do this, Nadia, right? So we haven't talked in a while. Let's just get— let's do a catch-up call for 10 minutes. Well, what's the agenda? I don't know.

It's easy for us because we are natural connectors. Now, you, Peter, and I are both fast-paced and outspoken. Jim tends to be, as an individual, he's very articulate, but he will be an observer first. So I say to my clients, am I right about that, Jim?

Probably. I probably wouldn't, would not have characterized myself that way naturally, but I think it's probably true. You know, the biggest thing for me is to make sure that When I'm interacting with someone in this virtual world, that it matters, that I'm bringing something to the table that is going to help them, you know, get better at what they do. I mean, that's my job as an advisor, whether I'm coaching or consulting. It's all about trying to make somebody better. So yeah, I mean, part of it's being able to listen better. I will sort of hop on the earlier thoughts that one of the Good things about all this is I do think it's made us more patient. It's made us listen a little bit better. It's helped people recognize that, you know, there's these challenges that we are all up against, that we're all in it together, and that we're going to work hard together to overcome them using this medium as a way to connect. So, you know, I think that's something that's sort of come out of this, and I think it's something that we'll gain from it. When it's finally behind us.

Yeah.

And my question is, are we good enough? Do we have a good enough skill set? And people don't naturally have this. So do we give people, team leaders, a whole lot of things they can do with their teams that people feel that they are more important, that they are valued, that they are seen not just as a worker? So a question I've been asking team leaders to ask people, and this is a good one to get to bonding, is when you look at your teenage self, what was your biggest challenge as a teenager? What was something that defined you? What was your life like? And that allows and brings up interesting discussion that helps us go beyond just what we're seeing. So my whole goal in this virtual reality is to help people build these bonds that would happen naturally, but to do it virtually. And Jim, the nature of your work, you're already asking people so many questions as you get know them. That's the nature of your work. My work is helping team leaders and helping individuals collaborate, lead, and engage both virtually and in a hybrid world and giving them concrete skills. Because you don't wake up today and say, okay, how am I going to make each person in my team feel valued? I've just done a huge rollout for a big company on working with people who only have virtual teams. And simple things like during Halloween, asking people what the best costume they've ever had is, or what would they like to dress up as. I mean, it's a simple question, but what it does is it makes people laugh. And then to delegate that to your team. So you say, I don't need to be the— in charge of the fun brigade every time. Maybe in my team, I put Jim and Peter in charge of that. So people come up with different things. And Although these things may seem a little frivolous, what they're doing is helping us get to know you. And that's the biggest thing that is lacking in a virtual world is we don't— so many people are working with teams that they've never met. They're onboarding people they've never met. And it's not a matter of saying, hello, let's just get to know you. You need to have the skills and techniques and tools to get beyond so that people feel they are important.

Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the biggest concerns that I have right now with clients is the lack of coaching. And Peter, you kind of hopped on that earlier when you said, you know, a lot of things happen after the meeting. And it's that sort of walking down the corridor after, after hopping in an office somewhere and having a sort of a sidebar conversation about what just happened and so on. And I know I spent a fair amount of time with that You know, in the past, and it's a way to connect, like we're saying here, but it's also a way to help develop people. And what I'm concerned about is I think we've lost that ability for people to mentor folks in this virtual world because it's hard to double back afterwards and have that conversation, have that sidebar conversation that we used to be able to do in person very easily. Yeah.

So I've chunked that into—

Walk into the next meeting.

Yeah. So I've chunked that into sort of 3 buckets, Jim. There's content that needs to be delivered, theoretically the purpose of the meeting, the agenda. And I think we're pretty good at delivering the content digitally, remotely, whatever. Here's the agenda, Jim, you weigh in, Nadia, let's have a conversation, whatever. But the missing pieces are the connection. So we might be on 5 different Zooms together a week, but we might not feel connected. And then going deeper than the connection is the community. And I think those things were, to some degree, organic or byproducts or unintended outcomes of the physicality of being in the same place. And we need to figure out how to be deliberate about that. So I think— yeah.

Intentional communication. I just worked with a client this morning, and that's the workshop we're delivering in February, which is intentional communication in a hybrid world, engaging, leading, collaborating.

Yep.

Because a year ago, it was maximizing your virtual presence. And I was spending lots of time telling people, have your light in front of you, not a window behind you so that you look like a cardboard cutout, like you're in the Witness Protection Program. Look into the camera. It's actually amazing though, that even 18 months later, I still work with teams who don't realize the importance of looking into a camera while they're talking. That is synonymous with looking at you. They still look down at the person who's speaking. They haven't navigated how to raise their computer. All of those little things that you would expect by now people have done still.

Well, let me ask you this, Nadia, because this is more in your wheelhouse, but feel free to weigh in, Jim. You know, everybody's talking about Zoom fatigue, right? So every Zoom that I do, unless there's a technical or something, and almost every call I do today is Zoom. The camera's on, right? And I find it wonderful, right? There's connection, there's whatever. When I'm on a phone call with someone now, I always feel like I'm watching a black and white movie, or the sounds— like it's missing an element.

Same thing.

But there are organizations that are now putting in new protocols or norms or whatever. It's, oh, this is a camera optional meeting. And when I hear that, I mean, oh, that means I've given you permission to not pay attention to check your emails, to be mildly disengaged, to have this on as sort of the Christmas music and Starbucks in the background. So I'm not saying Zoom fatigue is not real, but I think some of the way that we're processing that— I mean, if the fatigue is, wow, I'm not used to paying attention, that's one problem. So what are you guys seeing there? Nadia, maybe if you want to jump in on that first, see what the norms are and sort of the Zoom fatigue.

So my thought always is, where possible, have your camera on. But I do understand that companies are saying if it's a quick meeting, we can do a call because people are getting exhausted. But again, set the guidelines. If everyone's expected to be on camera, unless you have a good reason not to, say, unfortunately I can't today. I'm also very careful about how I phrase that. When I do sessions, I say preferably with your camera on, because I'd rather you attend than don't attend because you were self- conscious, or there was an issue, or there was something going on. So I'm very honoring. I also tell leaders not to chastise people if they don't have their cameras on. So for example, guys, we're really hoping— this is the protocol— have your cameras on. But if somebody repeatedly doesn't have their camera on, I would ask why. But you don't want to make people feel like they're naughty schoolchildren if they don't. And yes, it does take more energy. If you are doing a call, though, say to people, guys, I know we're not on camera, we're doing this call, but please, I need your full attention. Can you— we're keeping this brief. I am going to be calling on you because we know that people's tendency to multitask if they're not on camera is greater. And at the end of the day, all of our roles, we're trying to drive engagement and participation.

Yeah.

And are we doing that as skillfully as we can?

And what would you say, Jim? What would you add to that?

Well, I guess I'm going to take the other side on it. I've got a client right now that I work with regularly, you know, on a daily basis that really doesn't want people on camera. They don't care about it. They didn't issue cameras. They kind of feel like it doesn't really matter as long as we can share content. So we'll have 20 people on a phone call. And there'll be a presentation being made, and people are watching the screen and looking at the content on the screen and what have you, but no one's seeing each other. And I agree with you. I think there is, you know, people can drift off. They can— in fact, I've had this happen many times. You'd call on somebody, hey Bill, what do you think of this? And Bill's not there. You know, his name shows up in the list of attendees, but he's physically not there. And, oh, sorry, I was, you know, uh-huh, you know. So there's, there's definitely something lost with, with that approach to it. But I'd say, at least in regard to this client, you know, we're getting the work done. It's not optimal, but it's the way it is. And, you know, I think people—

And their meetings might have been awful meetings before where it was culturally acceptable to have a device open or, you know, I think it depends on what was the standard protocol and level of respect at a traditional meeting. There are meetings that 40 people are in and 37 of them are going, I don't know why I'm here.

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I think like they've been a client for a very long time and certainly the quality of the meeting differs from meeting to meeting. But yeah, we've lost something for sure with this and I watch people like Nadia and the great advice and, and, and, um, you know, uh, training that she provides as being really important stuff. And I, you know, in fact, I've tried to incorporate some of that with my, um, you know, conversations in the spiritual world and so on. So there's, there's something to be said for the value of taking that extra few steps to make it You know, as good as it possibly can be and to connect as well as we possibly can, you know, given the situation that we're all in.

Yeah.

One of my best stories is, you know, I had a client, top HR person, Fortune 500 company, and I get a note from her assistant. This will be no cameras. This will be no cameras. So I wake up very early one morning, stumble into my office, not looking like I am now. No makeup, hair, you know, whatever. Literally in my pajama top. And I switch on the Zoom and there she is, fully made up, perfect lighting, looking amazing with her camera on. And it was one of those moments of going, do I switch my camera on? And, you know, so much of what I teach is how long does it take to make a first impression? And everything you do and say communicates. And are we using everything we can to come across as the best version of ourselves?

Sure.

And there I am in my pajama top that says Crush. And I decided in that moment that I should put my camera on. And anyway, we sort of laughed about it afterwards, but it was one of those moments that I thought, this is going to be, you know, and, and so much of what I teach is virtual presence, and there I am. But it was that moment of making a decision of the camera on if she's got her camera on and she's the potential client. So I'm sure there's some good stories of what's happened and what hasn't happened and moments that have gone wrong in this virtual world. But one thing is, again, you said that the level of just transparency and vulnerability and being okay if the dog barks, you know, I had a moment where I said, my dog doesn't bark during this, and then being able to go, it's okay. And we've become so much more accepting and not judgmental of each other. Um, somebody asked me in one of my sessions, you know, I was, you know, what if my naked partner walks past behind me? I said, well, that's one way of grabbing people's attention. You know, I think we've learned to laugh, we've learned to accept the imperfection. I recommend things like having a background that makes sense and all of these things in a perfect world, but sometimes I've had people who are having to do their calls in their bedroom because that's their only space.

Yeah.

So At least make your bed.

Right. So I think that authenticity, the transparency, the vulnerability at first was forced on us and now we're embracing it, right? Because you never would've walked into a meeting in an office building in downtown Atlanta in your pajama top, right? That would be like, wow. But now, even though that, you know, you might've broken some unspoken code, it's like, hahaha, things happen. Oh, it's an early morning call, she didn't get the email, whatever, whatever. But I think we're all sort of now peeking inside of each other's spaces. And, and, you know, like you said, you wouldn't want— you know, you wouldn't bring your dog to your office unless you work for Google or something like that, right? But we're seeing a bit of each other that we didn't see before, and I think it's a good thing, you know. And I think it's a— you know, Jim and I have talked about, you know, obviously your CD collection's impressive and you're a music aficionado, and I may not have known that. if we were living in a different place. And that's led to, you know, you posting Bruce Springsteen quotes and I'll talk about them or whatever, right?

But if I was meeting Jim, I could ask him about that CD collection and we could have a conversation about it. Or I'd say, Peter, you know, I noticed you're doing X. And the ability to do that, we told people, I mean, Dale Carnegie in the '60s wrote about how to win friends and influence people. And he said, people who talk about themselves are bores and people who talk about other people are gossips and people who talk about you are brilliant conversationalists. Those foundational things of showing genuine interest in the other, whether you're in person or online, the difference is you have to be, and we're going to use that word again, more intentional.

Yeah. No, I think the intentional piece is cool. All right. As we start to wrap, maybe if I can put each of you on the spot for a moment or two to think about, not in a big way, Fluffy kind of way, but what are your hopes and aspirations for 2022 in a pragmatic way? So we're not— world peace would be lovely, like that'd be nice, but that's not what— what do you, what are you thinking about for 2022, Jim, as it's around the corner, shockingly, a month away?

Yeah, you know, it's— I've been doing a lot of thinking about that. In fact, I think we all kind of do as we get ready for the next year and so on. Um, you know, for me, I'm in the middle of writing book number 7. So I'm hoping to get that finished and find a publisher for it. So that's kind of one of the goals that I want to get accomplished, you know, next year.

Sure.

I also want to build out some different kinds of strategic relationships with consulting firms because I feel like I'm at a point now in my career where I want to help to develop sort of the next generation of consultants. And I feel like I can do that by, you know, forging better relationships with some bigger firms that have those younger folks that are already there and, and need some assistance. So I'm kind of looking at a couple of those, those kind of ideas for next year. How about you? What are you doing for next year, Peter?

Oh, you boomeranged the question. So I think, um, you know, next year— this year we— well, so let me put it this way. I'm going to do more of what we did this year. Um, in a good way. I think we're going to continue to move forward. We launched a new practice area a couple years working with large organizations as opposed to just the independent authors, speakers, and thought leaders.

So we will—

we do that, we will always do that, we love doing that, but we found different places that value what we do at different levels, and that's really exciting. We've picked up a handful of marquee clients. Um, I'd like to do a bit more travel. I don't want to go back to 140,000 miles a year. I've come to the realization that if I never achieve Executive Platinum again, they probably wouldn't have mentioned that at my eulogy and it wouldn't have been on my tombstone, and I'll just have to pay for upgrades moving forward. That's, that's okay. So, uh, yeah, that's that. And then maybe actually, um, getting the opportunity to meet some folks that I've developed great relationships in our community and others over the last 18 months. Like, Jim, you and I probably live, what, an hour and a half, 2 hours from each other? Lunch or dinner would be nice.

Cocktails would be better.

And Nadia, what about you? What's looking rosy for 2022?

First of all, for anybody who happens to be watching this, if you are an aspirational thought leader in an organization, Peter Winick offers fantastic advice and guidance. And if you haven't read Indispensable, that is the one book of Jim's that I have read. And it is remarkable strategy. And it's about making your product or your business indispensable. So you've got great advice from fantastic consultants who usually charge a lot of money. So thank you both.

Good morning.

Good morning. So for me, 2022, I do have a 4th book. It is Ramplify, and it's about ramping up your business and amplifying in 2022. I started it with David Asano in March of 2020. We are finally getting there. And of course, the interviews that I've been doing around it have been remarkable, and things have changed since 2020. So get that out would be fantastic. I am praying that I will get to South Africa in April. It is so depressing what has happened with Omicron because it means that people going to South Africa in December, many of my family amongst them, can't. So let's hope that it is much less dangerous than is being perceived and that people learn to live with this. In a way that is not crippling the economies of these countries. Because for South Africa right now, the lack of travel and the shutdown is worse for the country in so many ways than the virus. So let's pray that if you and I and Jim and Peter, if we're having this discussion this time next year, let's hope things have revived. And just continuing connecting. For me, the getting together the way Jim, Peter, and I met in this wonderful mastermind group of people who genuinely are givers as well as getters. I think that's been a fantastic part of the year. So thank you both.

Well, thank you. Anyway, I want to thank you both for your, for your time. This, this was a lot of fun, and I appreciate, appreciate you both very much. So thanks for joining us and spending the time.

And drinks in New York City.

Yeah, just text me anytime.

Yeah, count me in.