Leveraging Thought Leadership Live featuring Jan R. Rutherford, Jr. and Shannon Huffman Polson

And here we are. Welcome everybody. This is the launch of our LinkedIn Live version of Leveraging Thought Leadership. So I want to welcome you all here, and I'm really excited to kick this off with 2 folks that I've had the privilege of working with and I would consider friends and people I admire and respect greatly for their accomplishments pre-thought leadership and then during thought leadership. So let me start with Shannon. So Shannon is an author of a book called The Grit Factor. She's the founder of the Grit Institute, and she is an amazing keynoter. And then she was one of the first women to fly an Apache helicopter in, in combat. So that's officially badass in my world. That's That's amazingly cool. More importantly, she's an amazing human being and does all sorts of cool fundraising in her local community and is raising her kids and doing all sorts of cool stuff. And then we've got another old friend, Jan Rutherford. Jan is a former Green Beret and an author as well. His book was called The Littlest Green Beret. Now, every time I tell people I've worked with a guy that wrote a book called The Littlest Green Beret, they always ask, why did he write a book called The Littlest Green Beret? That's also part of his bio. He became one of the youngest at 17 Green Berets, and he weighed only 114 pounds when he did it, which led me to believe just on the weight category, I might have been able to be a Green Beret in second grade, but probably not. So I want to welcome you both here and thank you for taking your time out of your schedules. What I thought I would start with is the importance of sort of laying down the foundation of a solid strategy before you dive into this thought leadership universe. So any, any thoughts on that? Maybe start with Jan.

Um, well, I mean, you know, it's interesting. I, I, um, I lead expeditions with executives and military veterans, and the big takeaway is always you've got to slow down to speed up. And, um, you know, I, I think that's, you know, going into business. I mean, there's a certain part of you basically taking a step back. And I remember You know, meeting you, Peter. It was at a National Speakers Association meeting, and you had this talk. And you know, I remember one of the first things you said was, "How many of you are making $100,000 a year speaking or from your book?" Nobody raised their hand. And you went in this whole thing about you know what thought leadership really means. And it was before you know people were talking about influencers, right? And and what it really meant. You know, to be a thought leader. And it's funny how over the years since since you first introduced that concept, I've realized that anybody that's even in sales these days, anybody that's an entrepreneur has to be a thought leader if they're going to move their business forward. And I just got off the phone today with a CEO, an up-and-coming great immigrant story, everything. And he said, "I need to get out there with my story more." And it's interesting. I mean, part of it is really taking an assessment at the very beginning and figuring out, you know, what is it that I want to do, with whom, and why? And then figuring all the, you know, the details out. And I think that's what I remember you really helping me take a step back.

Well, thank you. Shannon, how would you think about that? I think you're on mute. There we go.

Yeah, I am. I would I think Jan's points are excellent. I have tended to continue to iterate, I would say, as I go, which is just how I tend to do things. But at the same time, one of the things that I see people early on in their careers in this area doing that I think they could do better is that you have to think about the ways that— not that you just have good ideas or that you have interesting experience, but But both how do you convey those, those experiences in a way that another person can receive them? And that means understanding those other people and what their needs are and what their environments are. It also means boiling things down because I hear so much kind of these summary experiences in many cases, or, or stories that only have to do with kind of the story itself, as opposed to how does this actually add value to somebody else? How can I—

Mm-hmm.

translate this in a way that is now meaningful and tactically helpful or strategically helpful for another person in another realm. And I think that's a real opportunity to get that in place before you get out there.

Yeah, and I love that. I want to push on what, you know, when you mentioned other people, one of the things that we work on on the front end is, you know, getting really specific with those other people, right? So, so on the one hand, could everybody benefit from reading both of your books? Sure. You know, is it efficient for both of you to focus on getting your work out into the universe to everyone? Probably not, because, you know, as far as I know, you don't have the budgets of Coca-Cola behind you. So you have to figure out who is most important, who your avatar is, who you're trying to serve, and how everything that you do from a strategic perspective is focused on getting your messaging to them, the right format, the right modalities, all those sort of things.

Exactly.

Yeah, cool.

You know, I want to comment on something that you said a moment ago, Jan, about, you know, well, it seems like everybody is a thought leader. And I don't know if I totally agree with that. I think there's a place for everyone to experiment and work with thought leadership. And I think, you know, whether you're like, you know, whether you're in sales, particularly in sales where you're more front-facing, it's the ultimate antidote to commoditization because it doesn't matter what you do, right? Whether you're in professional services or Commodities or selling software or technology, whatever. We're all facing commoditization. And I always believe that thought leadership is a way to sort of punch above your weight and decommoditize because now you're just another guy selling me tech. No, you're another guy selling me tech, but that Jan guy has a point of view and that's stuck in my mind.

Well, I think, you know, to me, if you're a leader in any way, shape, or form, if you're a teacher in any way, shape, or form, or if you're a salesperson any way, shape, or form, You're trying to influence other people and, and hopefully for noble reasons that you think what you have is of value. It's going to make people's lives better in some way, shape, or form. And so, you know, again, if you're just looking to transact, hey, I've got an idea and I want you to buy it, whether you're a leader, teacher, or salesperson, I think people are going to push back. But if, if you're a thought leader, you've recognized patterns, you've thought about something, You've, you've presented a unique point of view. And, and you can tug on the strings of, of what's in it for me and the drivers of other people.

Sure.

I think that, I think you can move people. And, and so, you know, again, I think, you know, there's not enough room for every— everybody to be an influencer, but maybe in different ways there are, you know, and, you know, more than ever, I mean, what you're partly, partly trying to overcome is people, That don't have as open of a mind as you would like. So you're you're you're trying to speak their language. I mean, and and I look at you know what I've been doing for the past ten years. I I mean, it's still iterating as Shannon said.

Sure.

And right, you know, just this past week, I'm like, I think what I do falls into three buckets, you know. And and and here's what I'm seeing, and and I'm constantly trying to figure out, you know. I am constantly trying to figure out what makes a leader. I mean, that, I, that, that's a forever quest.

Well, those buckets change. So Shannon, I'll go to, you know, your primary bucket or one of your primary buckets in Jan's language, a year and a half ago was keynote speaker. Then we had this little inconvenience called COVID. And unless you were able to convince, you know, 300 or 500 people to show up on your front lawn and hear you talk, you probably had to make some Changes to the flight plan, if you will.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, last year was a great forcing function in the sense that after 6 months of complete dead, you know, total quiet, we started to work virtually. And we started to do keynotes virtually. And we found ways to make those really inspiring and interesting and engaging. And, and actually, I sort of loved that opportunity. It was another way to engage, another way to engage more broadly in some regards. But then it was also the opportunity to launch into doing some leadership facilitation facilitation online and developing workbooks and developing courses that really engaged people where they were and, and met needs that weren't being met and went deeper into some of the material as well. So it was just, it was launching the book, it was taking the keynotes, and then taking, going now into this place where this leadership facilitation with both online courses and facilitated courses has been a really amazing way to blow it out. And there was certainly stress in the development of it based on—

Sure.

timeline, but, but really exciting stuff. And it's been amazing to see the traction that it gets.

Yeah, if I could, Peter, you know, one of the things that supposedly only the CEO can do is interpret the meaningful outside. And I think over the last 18 months, we've all had to figure out, you know, how do we interpret the meaningful outside? In other words, what is the market saying? And, you know, the best advisor I've had is my wife, and she always says, The market will tell you what it values. And it's been clear—

That's so true.

You know, over the course of my journey for 10 years, you know, what the market values in me is different than what I wanted it to be at the beginning. And then I sort of gave into it and I went, this is what the market values and this is what I'm going to reinforce and put more oomph behind. And it's been, you know, it's sort of remarkable. And, you know, I think for budding entrepreneurs, it's, you know, they have an idea of what they want it to be, But boy, they really need to be open to the fact that there's gonna be things that push back against it or things that are easier and to pay attention to that.

No, I think that's well said. And, you know, in terms of that shift of the market, there's totally different expectations between what the buyer of a keynote back in the old days was looking for. It's, hey, you know, we believe your story, this is cool, come out for an hour or 45 minutes, be engaging, be entertaining, inspire the troops, if you will, and then go home. Now they might take that same money or even some multiple of that investment and say, you know what? We're not doing that anymore for lots and lots of reasons, but I'll make that investment in you if you can develop the capabilities in my people that enable them to develop a skill that drives a business outcome. Totally different formula. Totally, totally different game.

Yeah.

So I wonder, could either of you speak to that? Because I know you've both gone through that.

Well, and Peter, just, I'm actually literally sitting in the lobby of a conference center after having just delivered a keynote. So keynotes are not gone at all. And in fact, they've come back both live and virtually in some pretty meaningful ways. But it's nice to be able to augment that with going deeper with the learning and going deeper, of course, with, I mean, the book was the result of years of research. And so that is what I've been speaking on anyway for a while. But it is great to have several approach. And I think you helped me see that early on.

Thank you. And then you mentioned— did you have something on that, Jan? Because I had another question.

Um, I, I, I, I think, you know, it's interesting because, um, you know, I have so many people, CEOs, basically saying to me these days is, you know what, I need to scale. I went to Harvard, I went to Wharton, I went here, I went there, right? Jan, what does scale mean? How do I do it? And I mean, and, and they're not, they're not being sarcastic. They're like, you know, how do you do it? And, and there's a lot of things I say, but, you know, one of the, the more cliché things is, you know, hey, if you want to grow your organization, you grow your people. Let's really look at that. And, and, but it's a real struggle right now because we know there's a crazy 35%, 40% attrition in some of the tech firms.

Yes.

And so they're thinking, do I really want to invest in these folks for my competitors? And You know, I, and, and I think again, what I think has happened is that in addition to learning and all that, we, that a lot of people have let the culture go by default, you know, over the last 18 months. It's kind of like, you know, where, where they'd have rules and unspoken rules about how they interact when they were all together. They've let it all go by the wayside. And so now they have these cultures that are sort of decayed. And then they're wondering why it's so hard to bring them back and create learning and, and produce better outcomes in their people. So there's a lot going on. And, and again, I'll wrap this up is I think everybody wants a quick fix. And there isn't a quick fix. And I'll tell you, there's been plenty of times I've said, I know you want training; training is not going to fix this.

Right.

Well, and when they say training, they'll say, great, so this has been going on for 5 years here. Our people have a lack of trust or they're silos, whatever. Could you come in 45 minutes and fix all the ALS? That's just a ridiculous expectation, right?

Right.

We've all learned things, we've all mastered things, we've all developed capabilities. No one's done it in 5 minutes. I want to touch on books. There's lots and lots of discussions in books. In fact, there was an article in the Times yesterday around the supply chain finally hitting the publishing industry. You can't even get— crazy, crazy stuff. So Jan, when I met you, your book was already locked and loaded and done. Shannon, your book was sort of a concept when we first met, and you both have done really, really well with the book. But I want to talk about sort of maybe just the journey, right? Because I think there's this thing of, I have to write a book. And I think that the answer is no, you have to write the book you want to write for the right reasons at the right time.

So— Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know if the other— I mean, I think it's helpful to, to, to have one for sure in the way that I work in the world. But, but I've also— I think of myself as a writer and, uh, and an idea person, and that's very much who I am. Um, I think there are other people who do, do well and, and don't necessarily need to go that path. But, um, uh, I, I have really— I mean, I love it.

I—

so I think you've got to do the things that you love to do, right? And I love to work with ideas. I love to work with people and, and to develop that into ideas that other people can, can— I hate the use the word consume, but that's what people use lately for, for content, right? Um, but I, but I love to, to form ideas and stories in meaningful ways that make an impact in people's lives. And so because of that, the book was a natural extension of that. So yeah.

Great. And, and, Dan, what was your book experience?

I, I wrote the book for me, um, originally. I mean, I, I knew I always wanted to write it. I wrote it for me. It was based on the course I taught at the University of Colorado for MBA students. And I knew I needed a platform. I knew that was the ticket. And I remember thinking, should I get a PhD? Should I write a book? And, and I went the book route. But since then, I've written a chapter in another book that was just published in the UK called Purposeful People. And I'm working on another book with a co-author on the Crucible expeditions we've run. And we're collecting—

Oh, yeah.

Of the 200 plus people that have been on our trips, we're collecting their stories and we're tying those into a book because everybody can't go on our expeditions. But we want them to experience what we learn when a group of really great people come together and form a team. So now I'm motivated in a different way to get a message out. And and again, there's no you know I I don't have bestseller aspirations or any. I just I just want to. I wanna— I want people to know what happens on these trips, what's so remarkable, and how it might be replicated in the regular business world. So, well, and the point—

Yeah, the point that you made about, well, and I wrote it for myself, I think that's a critical piece. Meaning, you know, one of the benefits of writing a book, and there's many, is, is, um, it's a forcing mechanism, right? to get it tight, to get it concise, to be able to say, what, is that the best way to either tell the story of the point I'm trying to make, or what is it that I'm trying to get done? What is it that I'm trying to say? How am I trying to say it? So I think that do it for yourself is a good piece as well. Yeah.

And Jan, I love hearing you talk about the ideas and what you've just contributed to with the title, as well as what you're looking at as The Crucible. And I would say one thing that I feel like, and I hope this isn't an unpopular opinion. Um, I worked hard with The Grip Factor knowing that, you know, I have one experience and that's filtered through my own lens and my own time that I served. And so I didn't want it to be about me. Um, I wanted that to inform the story, of course, but, um, and how I deliver it. But it really ended up being, you know, dozens of other people that were willing to contribute stories and ideas so that it became about the concepts and the ideas. And I think in a way, like, we have enough We have enough stories about individual people's stories, and they're all, you know, very necessarily unique to that person. And I think that focus on the idea is really what I would recommend anybody who wants to be in thought leadership focus on. Not— you have to tell it through your own story, of course, but it can't be about you. And there's a lot of people that want things to be about them, but it's about the idea, and you're just relaying the idea in a unique way. So that's That would be one thing I would mention about writing.

So that's a key point. So stay there for a minute because I always joke that I have 2 types of clients. You know, one group wants to make me— wants us to make them incredibly relevant, and one wants us to make them irrelevant. And I think your point that you're making, Shannon, is kind of making yourself irrelevant, meaning there are folks out there where the stage presence is kind of And that's— and there's a place for that. I'm not, I'm not judging, you know, it's a— it's entertaining, it's fun, they, they do some things, they can juggle, whatever, whatever. But I think ultimately the, the, the test that, you know, time will tell is, can this IP, can these stories stand up? I don't need to be the only delivery vehicle. If I'm not on stage, there's other ways that this information can be conveyed. And it's interesting because, you know, Jan, your world with The Crucibles, there's nothing more experiential than going off into the wilderness for 3 or 4 days. But that's limited, right? You can't have a million people do that. And Shannon, your stories as well, right? Telling the pressure of being in an Apache helicopter. Okay, well, we can't all ride along for that.

And also, that's too easy to replicate. There's a million— there's a lot of people in both of our areas with similar backgrounds and experience that are telling stories, and that's great, but it's got to get beyond that story. The story is a delivery mechanism for the idea. And until you've done the work to really tease out the idea and allow it to be delivered via story, I don't think you're in thought leadership. You're not in the space.

Yeah, I love that because it has to— well, and I think one of the tests of that, Shannon, is, is this teachable?

Right?

Because I will never have the experiences that you had earlier in life or that Jan had earlier in life, but that's not the point. Right? That's part of who you are. And that might be from a marketing standpoint, a differentiator. But the reality is that what you're bringing to me, I could, you know, I love your book, right? So there are things that I can take away from Grit and things that I can take away from Littlest Green Beret and use in my world, totally different context than your context.

Exactly. And that's the point. That's what makes it important, right? And hopefully relevant and impactful. So.

Cool. Well, it's, it's, it reminds me of the, um, I think it was Charles Handy or someone said, the only way you're going to be different 5 years from now is the people you meet and the books you read. And, you know, again, I, I think you hit on a key point as, as far as the idea and the concept. I mean, we're all egocentric and we can appreciate a good story, but at the end of the day, you know, what's in it for me?

Right.

And, you know, how's this applied to the problems, the challenges, the issues I'm dealing with? How do I, how do I use this information to be more effective, to be happier, more fulfilled? And, and I think that's, that's always what we're trying to do. Just like you, Shannon, speaking today as a keynoter, you know, I, I know you got up there and you thought, you know, how do I engage the audience? It's all about them. It's actually not about me.

Exactly. That's right. Well, and I think that it's hard for some people to make, I think, but it's a critical one if you, if it's going to work.

Well, I want to touch on the point that it's hard for some to make. There are some keynoters that are amazing keynoters. They get on stage and it's magical, right? However, it's them to X. Like, the audience is irrelevant. They're almost props, and they know how to work the room. They know how to do all those things, and it's literally magical to watch. However, when you think about what does it take to be a great teacher, so, you know, to move that into a workshop experience or something else, And if you were— none of our greatest teachers were all about them. So I think for some folks, it's just a different skill set to be so other-focused. So if you think about servant leadership or servant teachership, if that's a word, an amazing moderator, amazing teacher, they're almost egoless. They're going in and they're waiting for your eyes to go wide and that light bulb to go off and know when to push.

Right.

And I think many people do have both skills, but I think there's a dominant Sort of trait that some, some of us have.

Yeah. Well, it's, it's interesting, Peter, you mentioned that. I think of the TED Talks that I've watched. I mean, some of them are really amazing, and then some of them you think, um, and I'm going to be sort of hypercritical here, is you think this, this sounds like, you know, a talk that was created for therapy. I mean, this, this is your, your therapy talk, and there's nothing wrong with that, but as a thought leader, it's, it's not about you. And I think, I think that's the shift. I mean, that I, I'd like to think that's happened for me over, over the, the last decade is, you know, at the beginning, I, I mean, a lot of my talks were about, you know, my past, my experiences. And I think part of that came from some insecurities. And I think as you get out there and you learn more and you, and you realize how you can really help people and you do help people and you, and you start kind of being like a bee where you pollinate.

Sure.

You hear so many things, you're out helping. I think that's where the experience gets a lot richer. And I think, you know, you, you become more effective. But again, you got to be, you know, this is, you know, kind of what we preach in leadership all the time is, you know, self-awareness is 3 components. It's, you know, knowing how you are, knowing how you affect other people, and then having the ability to self-regulate to deliver a response that's best for the team. Not to satisfy his pride or ego.

So I do want to touch on your therapy piece because on more than one occasion I have told a client, you know, read your damn book. And I've actually sent clients their own books to read because I think at some level, for some, not all, the reason the thing that they're in is something that intrigued them. It might be something they had a challenge with or a struggle or they were fascinated with. Not, not all, but there's a reason some people are, you know, experts in trust or resilience or agility or grit or whatever, right? It's not like your average dentist is probably not gonna write a book on grit, right? It's probably not gonna happen. So I think there are some reasons, but I think to your point, Jen, there might be sort of a wisdom that comes with ages, you know, where, you know, if you were to speak back to, you know, yourself 25 years ago, it'd probably be a different experience.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. Well, I, yeah. And I mean, my, I mean, the thing I think Shan and I both have in common is You know, the adversity we've gone through, you know. Sure. You know, I mean, it can it can just pound you into the ground and humble you and and you know kill you. And at the same time, it can make you stronger. And you know, I'm gonna speak with someone later today, and I want to ask them, you know, hey, you had you know real positive influence in your mother in your life, and then you had a teacher that was an awful person. I mean, and my question is, do you need both? Do you need both? I mean, to come out of this adversity. And again, I mean, if we think about teaching and learning and workshops and developing people, part of it is people have to make some mistakes. They have to stumble to learn.

Absolutely.

I mean, none of us— I mean, it's like the story of the high school winning the state championship. And so they're over there celebrating, and the team came in second is over here, and the coach says, "I feel sorry for those guys." And they're like, "What do you mean you feel sorry for them? They won. Like they didn't learn anything. You came in second. You're gonna have to deal with that your whole life. You will have learned something from this experience." And so you know again, I mean, I think you know that's one of the reasons I think adversity has has resonated with with a lot of us that came out of the military because. You know, those days were dark, and they were hard. And, you know, we got through it. And it's like, you know, I think we're a better person because we did that. And I think we can help people realize, even like during a pandemic, like, hey, this is terrible. But, you know, coming out of it, we can, you know, we can be forged into something stronger and better.

And that's a choice that we, that each person has to make, right? And I think that is what the, whether it's a book or a keynote or, or leadership facilitation, whatever it is, it's, it's helping people understand that they have the agency to make that decision, whether or not they're going to learn, whether or not you become better, whether or not you take that material and create something new and a new direction. So, but some people won't do that. So I do think maybe in a way that part of what we're doing with thought leadership is helping people to understand agency in a different way.

Yeah.

New ideas that can help to propel them into different, in new directions that are meaningful and, and allow them to contribute. This is my new thing is it's all about us wanting to be able to contribute our best in this world and, and setting the conditions to do that for ourselves, for our team, for the people that we care about, for our organizations. And, and that's what, yeah, what leadership and people development is all about.

I love it. So as we start to wrap, I'd love to get a minute or 2 from each of you and speak to— there's someone out there that's either a Jan or a Shannon or both. 10, 12, 15 years ago as you were beginning the journey, what would you wax poetic to those folks just about to embark on this journey of thought leadership? You want to go first, Shannon? Here you go.

Yeah, why not? We're arm wrestling virtually. Yeah, I would say, first of all, believe in yourself and your experiences. I think making the transition into any new arena can be challenging and people can have a lot of doubts. And so believe in yourself and those experiences. And then So there's a piece of ego in that. And then there's a— the second part is the humility to say, OK, I'm just one person. And I had this one set of experiences. And how do I take that and make that meaningful and transformational for others? How can I make that connect for others in a meaningful way? And, you know, I think about the stories that I tell now in my keynotes, even still today, to a degree. came from, you know, from one of my very, very, very, very, very first keynotes. And it was, I think the name of the conference was Leading from Any Seat. And that became the name of my keynote. And I thought about stories, 3 stories for 3 points that would fit into that. And are they the most crazy and exotic stories? No. But they're the stories that tell the points and deliver the information in a way that people can really remember them and internalize them. So don't, don't do too much. Believe in yourself, but then know it's all about others. And then think just about a few small things that can carry the ideas to be transformational in other people's lives.

I love it. Thank you so much. And, Jan, no pressure, but—

No, that's— there is pressure. What I would say is, you know, with the people that have this desire is you've always been successful. You've gotten through things. You know what? You're, you're going to be, you're going to continue to be successful. A lot of those strengths that got you where you are today are going to serve you really well. At the same time, some of those strengths are going to need to be throttled back. They will not serve you so well. So you need to have the self-awareness to figure out what strengths will work and which ones won't. And as I mentioned before, I think it's really listen to the market. You know, I mean, pay attention to what resonates with people. Um, somebody said to me, um, I forget who it was, maybe it was Tom Rath, but it was, um, listen to the questions that people ask you.

Yeah.

As you're getting ready to go, because that's going to tell you what people already value your expertise in, you know. So really, really listen to the questions that people ask you. And, um, that, that's, that would be the advice that I would give myself. And as I always say to my wife, I'm like, I wish I had started this 10 years earlier. And she always says correctly, you weren't ready. You had to go through a bunch of stuff that you went through to be where you are today. And, you know, that's the other thing is, um, you know, hopefully you have really good people around you that, um, will be truth tellers.

Yes, exactly. Well, that was fantastic. So I want to thank you both, A, for your service, your esteemed service, and for sharing some time with us today and talking about your journeys. And if you haven't read either of their books, get it today. If you haven't experienced either of their works, check them out. They're amazing in their own right. And it was a privilege to have both of you on here today. I appreciate it so much.

Thanks, Peter. Thanks, Shannon.