Leveraging Thought Leadership Live featuring Jen Fisher

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining us on a LinkedIn Live version of our podcast, which is Leveraging Thought Leadership. And today my guest is Jen Fisher. Jen is really interesting on a bunch of levels in that she is a podcaster, she is an author, she's got a new book out called Hope is the strategy, which we're going to get into in a little bit. And she is a workplace well-being expert, amongst other things. So welcome aboard, Jen. How are you today?

I'm doing great. And it's good to be here with you. Thank you.

So what does a workplace well-being expert do all day?

Boy, that's a loaded question. Well, I mean, you know, my mission and goal in my work life, if you will, is help make work better for humans. And so, you know, that is a big statement. And that could be anything from, you know, training and education to tools and resources.

Right.

But, you know, I think more recently and perhaps more importantly, helping leaders and everyone, all of us, rethink the design of work and the impact that perhaps some longstanding norms, beliefs, and behaviors are having on people's well-being at work and why that matters, quite frankly.

What does better mean? Right. Because your better might be different than my better in terms of make it better at work.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely right. And so I think that that gets at the heart of it is that, you know, for a long time we believed that workplace well-being was a one-size-fits-all solution, like, hey, let's Right. Roll out this program or this tool or this resource and, you know, it's going to help everybody. And I think we've learned along the way that that's not true because we're all unique and we're all different and we all have different life circumstances and different needs, which makes the work challenging. I would say that, you know, from the broad research that exists on the topic, we now know that there are a handful of things that Really impact people's well-being at work. And it's not whether or not they have the right tools and resources or whether or not their company provides yoga class to them at 2 o'clock on Thursdays. Very obviously, we know that a big piece of it is workload. Another big piece of it is my relationship with my coworkers and my leaders. Do I feel comfortable? Do I feel psychologically safe? Another big piece of it is kind of autonomy and agency. Do I have control over how my work gets done and control over certain aspects of my work? And so to, you know, to summarize that, that is about kind of design and ways of working that we haven't looked at in the past in terms of how it affects our well-being.

So stay there for a minute. If the better If there's no one-size-fits-all answer to the better, which makes sense, right? Because it could be lots of different things. But it used to be like pre-COVID, at least we agreed on what the term workplace was. That was the place I went every morning, right? Like that was get on the train, do the thing. Here's my desk. Here's the conference room. Like whatever. That doesn't even mean the same thing anymore, right? So workplace is really more of a concept than an address.

Yeah.

So how does that change the equation for you then.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's such an important insight. And I also think that it is why we're seeing some of these wild swings of like, you know, everybody's going to the office, nobody's going to the office, we're going to the office 2 days, we're going to the, you know, like, because nobody has really stepped back to actually redefine What do we mean when we're saying workplace? Right. And so the natural tendency of humans is to say, well, then let's just go back to the way that it was because at least we know that it worked.

And we had comfort in the familiarity of what that is and what it looked like.

Yeah. And we can debate whether or not it worked. I think it worked back then because that's what we knew. But because of COVID we now know something different. I think there's also a lot of generational differences that are at play now. And so it does make it challenging, which is why I think that it comes down to, you know, looking at, you know, the ways of working, which could be in the office, from home, from some third space or some third location.

Yeah.

Looking at the type of work that someone or groups of people are doing and what is required in that work. Do they need to be together? Do— is it largely work that gets done on an individual level and then passed to somebody else? And so we have to dig deeper, much deeper into the ways that people are working to understand what's actually impacting their wellbeing and then design solutions that are differentiated. And so instead of one solution within an organization, that might mean that there's 7 or 8 solutions within an organization.

Which is harder to manage and to lead. So I want to go and we'll get to the the book in a moment or two. But I want to talk about your journey, right? Like, I doubt that, you know, Halloweens of years past, you wanted to be a workplace expert. There probably wasn't a costume for that. How did you— I'm always fascinated in how people get here, like what the journey was, and how did you decide that this is where you want to put your stake in the ground?

Yeah, absolutely. So I spent 23 years of my life and my career at Deloitte. And So I wasn't always a workplace wellbeing expert. How that came about, I started actually in the marketing organization at Deloitte because that is part of my background. And then I went on to be the chief of staff for the chief operating officer, who then later became the chief executive officer. Coming out of that role was when I, and that was about 11 years ago, I experienced Pretty significant burnout to the point where I had to take a leave of absence to really take care of myself. But what's significant about that is that 11 years ago, we weren't really talking about workplace well-being or burnout, not in the way—

Psychological safety.

Psychological safety. So when some people kind of get down and they're like, we haven't made any progress, which it's easy to do, I remind them that a decade ago, we weren't even talking about these things, right? Nobody even had a understanding of what these concepts were really outside of perhaps academic and research areas. And so I didn't really know what I was experiencing or going through. I knew that I was struggling. I also worked in a very high-performing environment. Big 4 accounting and consulting is known for high performance. It's known for the grind. And so I Didn't ask for help, didn't feel like I could ask for help, didn't really feel like I could say, "Hey, I can't handle this," because I felt like if I did, then you know I would be people would be like, "Well, she doesn't belong here. She can't. She doesn't." Right. So I just kind of kept doing what a lot of us do. I'm gonna push through, and eventually, you know, eventually something will get better. But it didn't get better; it just continued to get worse. And so, you know, my my brain finally said, "All right, stupid, if you're not gonna do something." And so I, you know, woke up one morning, you know, and it had been building for quite a while. And I really just could not function or, you know, engage in life or work in any meaningful way. And that was kind of the biggest sign of like, okay, you really need to do something about this. So I took that time off. I took a leave of absence.

Mm-hmm.

I worked on getting myself healthy, you know, physically and mentally and kind of understanding and redefining what I wanted to do with my life. The role that work played in my life.

Stay there a minute. That might have been thought of as pretty extreme, right? To leave the big job. I mean, people are killing for jobs like that. Like, the chief of staff job's a pretty intense, well-compensated job at an amazing organization like Deloitte. You know, it's not like somebody working at The Gap that had a crappy week and said, oh, I'm out of here. Like, you don't just replace those. So that's a pretty extreme— I don't know about extreme, but Courageous and bold move to say peace out, right?

Perhaps. I don't know that I saw it as courageous or bold. I just saw it as— I mean, it was almost like I didn't have— yeah, I didn't have a choice. It was almost, you know, it was kind of like, okay, you know, you can't keep going like this. And it was showing up in my work. Several people had had conversations with me about it. You know, it wasn't a secret to anybody but me, really. You know, and so I did have to take that leap of absence, focused on getting myself well mentally and physically. And in going through that process, redefining the role that I wanted work to play in my life.

Yep.

You know, I started to become very passionate about the ideas and concepts that now sit under the banner of kind of workplace experience and workplace well-being. And so going back to work, I went to my leader and I had actually made the decision that I was going to leave. I was on a leave of absence. But I was going to actually leave Deloitte. And she said to me, you're not going anywhere because if you need this, there's a lot of other people here that need it too. And so—

That's pretty cool, right?

It's really cool. I mean, when you talk about psychological safety, courageous leadership, however you want to—

You also think about the randomness of the magic 8-ball of what your leader could have said, depending on who that person was, is Good luck, be well, pack your bags, get out, nice having you here, or whatever. But that's a pretty evolved answer.

Leaders and people that shape our lives and shape who we are and who we become, those are those pivotal moments that you never forget. Because when she said, you're not going anywhere, I was almost like, what do you mean? You can't tell me what I'm going to do. And so she really created the runway and the space for me to create the role of first Chief Wellbeing Officer at Deloitte. And that's what I did. I spent, you know, a good 4 to 6 months building out the business case for why we needed it, what it looked like, what the role would do, all of that kind of stuff. And for a lot of people that are listening that might be interested in a role like this, what I tell people is, when I first started in the role, it was 24, 25% of my time. Then it was 50% of my time. And then it became, it was almost like I had to build the case and the momentum as I was doing it. It wasn't like overnight, like, hey, I wasn't and then I was type of thing.

So stay there for a minute because now the next big piece is now you're going to leave, right? So when you think about, and I see this a lot with the journeys that thought leaders take, you have an incredibly successful career. Right, it's corporate and you figured out how to succeed and thrive and all those things there. Then you gotta go out there and it's like, uh-oh, now I've gotta like, yeah, this sounded like a great thing, but I actually need clients that will pay me. I need to deal with technology. I need to deal with people. I need to deal with, like, yeah, that's a big adjustment for lots of folks. How is that phase for you?

Well, I would say I'm still in that phase.

Okay.

Still adjusting, but I, I think a friend of mine that's an entrepreneur gave me some of the best, most insightful advice that I could get when I was telling her that one day that I felt like I had no idea what I was doing. And she said, don't worry, none of us do.

Just don't tell anyone. Right, right, right.

Yeah. But she said to me, okay, but when you were at Deloitte, did you always know what you were doing? And I said, no, but I'm smart and I work with smart people. And she was like, okay, and so you figured it out. And you can figure it out this time. And so, you know, I remind myself of that every time I, you know, am experiencing self-doubt or running into a barrier or saying, why in the world am I doing this? What was I thinking? Who do I think I am? You know, which, which happens at least once weekly these days. And so I would say I'm still, I'm still figuring it out.

Cool.

But overall, I will say, you know, for me and the place where I am in my career and in my life and the things that I want to do and accomplish. Um, you know, so far so good. I mean, you know, there, there's, there's positives and negatives to everything, but for me, so far so good. Yeah.

Cool. So now the latest— this is your third book? Did I get that?

Second book.

Second.

Don't get, don't get me onto a third one yet. I just published the second one.

So the book The book just came out recently. It's called Hope Is the Strategy, which is so, I mean, such a, what's the word I'm looking for?

You know, a— Contrarian point of view.

Yeah, it's such a really, wait a minute, I thought the t-shirts all said, you know, hope is not a strategy or whatever. So what is bringing hope into the workplace as a strategy? You know, what, what does that actually mean? And why would I want to do that? And what's the benefit?

Yeah. So the title is Hope Is the Strategy on purpose because I like to be the contrarian.

Yes.

But what I will say is, you know, we talked about my own burnout and through my experience of recovering from burnout, that's actually when I discovered the research around hope and actually learned that hope was not what I had thought it was, that hope is actually a cognitive and behavioral process. And most of us have been taught and/or believe that hope is just be positive about the future, positive vibes only, or having an optimistic mindset. Hope is not a mindset. Hope is a cognitive process. And from the research from C.R. Snyder and Shane Lopez and so many others, Hope requires 3 things. It requires having a goal and being very clear about that goal. It requires identifying multiple pathways or ways in which you can reach that goal, not just one way you can reach that goal, multiple ways. And then the third and probably most important is knowing that you have the ability to affect change so that you can, you can do something to make change to move towards that goal.

So stay there a minute because I love the way that you answered that from the standpoint of I'm a huge fan of models and methods and frameworks and definitions, right? Because when you throw out the word hope, Yeah. and if you don't define it, you're leaving open this opportunity for, say, well, Peter thinks hope is A, B, C, and D. But when I talk about it, it's these 3. So now that I see it through your lens, now we're talking about the same thing, right? And I think that's really important. Because when you bring that type of thinking into an organization, it's like, OK, we could relate to that. It's not this abstract—

No, it's—

Aerie, whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know what I, what I say to leaders when I'm talking about hope and hope strategy? Number one, I'm not saying hope is the only strategy, but I'm saying that, you know, if you have, especially in today's workplace, if you have a big transformational strategy that you're trying to make happen, you're trying to Sure. Let's choose AI because every organization under the sun right now is grappling with what to do about AI. However, the majority of the messaging around AI is all fear-based. You are not getting your people on board with your AI transformation because it's leading to layoffs. It's leading to all of this thinking around, well, AI is just going to take everybody's job. So, I mean, one of the big things is, is, you know, if you have a hope strategy that sits next, next to or on top of or alongside your AI strategy, you know, then you create a strategy in an environment that is much more human. It thinks about the human aspects of, you know, whatever your strategy. And so I tell leaders—

If you're rolling out AI and you're doing like most organizations are doing, burying the elephant in the room where everybody's going, OK, well, we're going to embrace this. We're going to master this. And then you don't need me anymore.

Right?

So let's figure out, like, a hope strategy might say, what are the things that I hope AI could help me do that are mundane or aren't value-add so that I can do more of what I like to do or more of higher value or more— then I'm like, now I'm like, OK, that's interesting. I'd like to do that because there's a lot of junk I have to do to get through the day or the week or the month.

Right. And so, you know, you can have the best strategy in the world, but if your people aren't on board with it, your strategy is going to struggle, right? Like, if they don't believe that whatever it is you're trying to do, AI or otherwise, if they don't believe that it's going to make their life better tomorrow than it is today, then they're done. And so as leaders, we have— and as colleagues, and just, I mean, this is important in every relationship in your life, communicating and connecting with others in a way that inspires hope. And the other important thing that I think is that is very specific to hope is hope does not deny reality. Hope, as a leader, hope will say, hey, this AI stuff is uncertain. We don't know where it's going to go. Some of it makes me feel uncomfortable, but I believe in our collective ability to do the right thing, to get to the right place, to do it in a way that everybody is going to be able to thrive in our environment.

Right.

And so giving people reassurance, telling them that you have their back, But that's not what's happening. And that's not historically what has happened during big, uncertain transformational periods. And so that's why hope is a strategy. And, and it's also a skill set, you know, and it's a skill set that we're not taught as, as human beings and as leaders, because what we're taught is hope is not a strategy. Yeah.

And I like the way that you framed it as it's not the strategy. It's yet another tool. Right. It's, it's one strategy or something that could be integrated into a strategy. So I want to move into something you and I were talking about before we went live today, which is, so the book is launched, right? So that's an exciting time and like a lot goes on there. And then you talked about sort of the, like an emotional release or whatever.

Crash.

Hey, how are you? Right, right. So talk about that because, you know, that I've heard that before many, many, many times in my work with lots and lots of authors. It's not—

yeah.

It's usually not what the publisher is telling you about on the front end, but you're on that interesting period right on the other side of it. What is that about? What does that actually mean?

Yeah, and I actually posted about this on LinkedIn yesterday. And, you know, so it's, you know, as best as I can tell, and I think I'm still trying to integrate some of it because I'm just a week out from publication date, is You know, everything up to publication date is so kind of keyed in, locked in, focused to get to publication date. But your work—

Off the band charts.

Really? Yeah. And, you know, and you're, you know, you're, you're giving some ideas and some thoughts through podcasts and posts and— but the, but the book, the whole— your creative work that you poured your heart and soul into isn't yet out in the world. And then publication day comes, and, you know, friends and family and people you know and don't know are sending you pictures with the book, and you're going, oh, shit.

Yeah.

You know, now it's out in the world. And so I have transferred everything that was in my heart and my head, you know, essentially to you, to the public, to now hold and to judge. And I also just think it's that emotional release. Like, it's your nervous system, like, you know, kind of recalibrating. And yeah, so for me, it was, you know, the day after my publication day, there were lots of moments of tears, you know, of like, you know, of, you know, just emotional release. I talked about it kind of as a crash. I think some of it is, you know, is truly the adrenaline crash.

Yeah.

But I think it's also both the fear and the excitement of something that you've worked towards for so long. I think this goes towards anything, not just a book, but kind of anything that you've worked Towards for a long time.

And where I was— what I was thinking about since you said that is, well, if you think about any major goal accomplishment, yeah, big work project, whatever, like the completion of something, a house renovation, like there's so many things where there's so much work put in and then at some point, wait, it's done, right? Like period, full stop.

Like, yeah.

Oh, you know, and the difference with it.

Yeah. And you, you know, like people are like, aren't you excited? And I'm like, I'm not really sure how I'm excited now, but like, you know, 3 days ago I wasn't exactly sure how I felt. I'm like, yeah, I mean, I guess I'm supposed to be excited, right? Yeah.

If you're not, why would a reader be? But I think the weird part about a book is most— like, if you think about the closing dinner, right? Like, there's a big— an account that you land or something. So it happens, and then there's a quick celebration. The difference with the book is, you know, you hit send or whatever on the final manuscript, I don't know, a year ago, 8 months, like some time ago.

Yeah.

So you have this calm before the storm where you know it's happening.

The fallow period, right? And then all of a sudden—

Lights, camera, action. It's like, whoa, like, okay, so there's a weirdness there.

Um, and it's interesting because I think a lot of people experience it, but no one really talks about it because it feels like, wow, I shouldn't feel this way. I should— and it's not a sadness, it's a— it's almost like a kind of a letting go, right? And so I think people don't talk about it because they don't know if they're supposed to feel that way. And so I tend to want to be open and transparent about those kinds of things because I don't think I'm that unique. So if I'm feeling this way, others have felt this way or will feel this way.

Let me— last thing I want to touch on. So when we think about workplace well-being, that's typically the Fortune 1000 large organizations and such that you're working with. That's where you come from. That's where you're working with, right? In my world, the world of thought leaders, most of us have left that, right? Most of us are doing our own thing or even the wildly successful ones, if they've got 50 or 100 people working for them, that's big in the thought leadership world. And many are either solo or they've got a handful of people that help them or whatever the case is. What are the things that you can do as either an entrepreneur or an individual thought leader, someone that's not a Fortune 1000 person, to work on your workplace wellbeing? Did we just lose her? Well, okay then. All right, I guess we will— oh, she's back.

I can hear you, but you couldn't see me.

Yeah, that was some unscheduled cardio. Thank you for that.

So what if you were working on your workplace well-being?

Exactly. So yeah, what are the things that you can do as a solo, as remote, as entrepreneur, whatever, from a workplace wellbeing? Because I think for a lot of those folks, they just use the term wellbeing, right? But it's, but it's different. How would you think about that?

You know, I think it is different, but a lot of it is also the same because, because people are people. I think that it's important, you know, as a, as a solo or as a small organization to think about the same things. How are, how are you designing your own day? You know, what does your own calendar look like? Is it— are you setting yourself up to be drained at the end of the day? Do you actually have time to do good focused work, to be that thought leader or that entrepreneur? Or are you back to back? Are you doing things that, you know, are you intentionally— I mean, I think one of the things that I've discovered when you asked me about the transition is, you know, being solo.

Yeah.

It can be really lonely. You can go kind of days and weeks without talking to somebody. And a lot of that inside of a large organization just happens naturally. And so are you being intentional about reaching out to others and connecting with others and making sure that you are cultivating and developing those relationships, whether it's one-on-one or going to conferences or those types of things? And so I still think that it's You know, design of work, the ways in which you're working. You know, are you in a, you know, in a dark office that, you know, you never get up and you eat lunch at your desk and, you know, and scoop your food into your mouth in 5 seconds flat? You know, and so, you know, design. So how is your day designed? You know, what are your ways of working? Are you working in a way that is going to allow you to be creative and energetic? And then thinking about kind of your relationships. We know those are the top 3 things that are impacting people's well-being at work. So I think whether you're solo, a large organization, medium, small, those things still stand true.

Got it. Got it. Cool. Well, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate your time and sharing all that you've shared today, Jen.

Thanks for having me.

My pleasure.