Leveraging Thought Leadership Live featuring Morag Barrett

And welcome, welcome, welcome. This is Peter Winick. I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage, and you're joining me on the extension of the podcast, Leveraging Thought Leadership, our LinkedIn Live series. Today, my guest is Morag Barrett. She is the founder and CEO of SkyTeam. She is the author of Cultivate: Power of Winning Relationships and The Future-Proof Workplace. And she's got a new book out called You, Me, and We, which I didn't do all my homework on time, but I'm about a third of the way through it and liking it. She is in the MG100. And I can go on and on and on, but I'd rather just talk to her than tell you how great she is. So welcome aboard today, Marc. How are you?

Well, thanks, Peter. And good news, I've got your back. So I can answer any questions you have on You, Me, We. I'm just grateful that you have a copy and that you've started reading it. So I'm looking forward to—

Yeah, so, so, um, a couple of interesting things about this book. One is there's, you know, you wrote the first book, that one took off really nicely.

Now you've got this book.

One of the first things that I noticed, and it might be because I'm sort of a, a book nerd, is, uh-oh, 3 authors. That's usually either the best of times or the worst of times.

Yeah, no, because we can—

So tell me what that was like.

It was fantastic. And it's interesting because my first book I wrote on my own, you know, with the keyboard and a team of advisors. The second book, The Future-Proof Workplace, I upped the ante. Well, I was invited. Dr. Linda Sharkey invited me to co-author that one with her. So we went 1 to 2. And then you're right, here we are with You, Me, We and 3 authors, my colleagues Eric Spencer and Ruby Vesely. And to be honest, it made it easier. It also made it harder, but it also made it easier because we've been working together for more than 8 years, 10 years in the case of Eric. So they've helped shape our thinking and philosophy that comes from Cultivate. The 2 books are connected. And so weaving and not including them just didn't enter my mind. So we are the role models for You, Me, We, and also sharing our experience with the leaders that we work with around the world.

Yep. So I want to— you and I were chatting a little bit about this before we went live back in the, whatever, the virtual green room. So I want to sort of go here for a moment. So typically, one of the things that I see with great pieces of thought leadership is there's the evergreen stuff, the principles that are in the book that will be true regardless of whether the stock market goes up 1,000 points or down 1,000 points, we're in a recession, whatever the thing's going on in the world, maybe a pandemic or something like that. They happen every now and then, right?

Yeah.

And then there's things that are happening that make a piece of work or a piece of thought leadership more in demand or less in demand or force us to rethink about the bridges to the reality of what's going on today. So as I was sort of starting to get through You, Me, and We, I'm like, this is really interesting because part of the topic that you're touching on is sort of best friend at work. Right. Is it this? And by definition, Best Friend at Work, when that work came out, what is that, 15 years ago from Gallup?

Yeah, about that. Yeah, 15, 20 years.

We didn't have to debate what at work meant, right? The implication was, oh, at work was that office building downtown and you and I are cubbymates or you're on the 3rd floor and on the— we're on the 8th floor. We've defined the— redefined, I should say, at work in this post-COVID phase How has that impacted the best friend at part, which is, which is your piece?

Well, I think both of those are still up for debate because Gallup talk about the fact that when they first introduced that question as part of their engagement research, and it's question 10, do I have a best friend at work? And they continue to, and did back then, get pushback because it was too touchy-feely. And what the heck, this is a workplace. No time for emotions. I remember being told that in my finance career. Ridiculous. And yet they can show from their research there is a huge correlation between, um, the ability to say, yes, I have a best friend at work, and productivity and results. But what I've noticed over time is that the research has continued to go deeper. It doesn't just make a difference in our work lives.

Mm-hmm.

It makes a difference to our health and our overall happiness. With life.

Okay. So research is further validating that. And I think it was Tom Rath's book was right, Best Friend at Work, came off of that, right? So he was sort of beginning the conversations here. The context was easier then. Hey, if you and I are best friends at work, let's make sure we find the time. Let's, let's have lunch together. Let's go for a cocktail. It's like the way that we did that was fairly easy. And then there's a whole piece on how can I support you? How can you support me? Whatever. How do we even find the bandwidth? I mean, we're living at a time right now that's really fascinating. I know people that have been recruited, started, and left a role during COVID where they never physically were in the same room as a coworker or broke bread with a coworker. And I'm like, that's actually frightening yet fascinating. So how do we do the friend piece when we're not at work in the way that we used to be now.

Well, so you touch on so many things here, and you're right. And in the book, we talk about a 3-step process: look up, show up, step up. And it all comes down to intentionality. So we wrote the book because Cultivate the Power of Winning Relationships provides a language and framework for understanding who am I dependent on for my success, and what is the health of that relationship, allies through to adversaries. I've seen it transform teams and organizational cultures, huge reaction to it. But we were also consistently asked, to your point, well, first of all, how do I show up as a friend at work? How do I show up as an ally, especially if somebody else is pushing my buttons? So that's what we answer in You, Me, We. And whether you're a solopreneur, as I was 16 years ago, or you have a team, or you're in a team of 1,000, Whether you're working from home or in a cubby or an office next to somebody else, you are dependent on others for your success.

Mm-hmm.

So step 1 is, whether you're sitting at your bedroom desk or your office desk, take a moment to look up and think, who am I dependent on for my success? And how do I feel in their presence? And how do they feel in mine? Because that is going to give you the clues as to where you need to direct your attention And then the how we do it, whether it's through the camera or in a 3-dimensional coffee shop, really doesn't matter other than you need to now follow through and think about how—

I would push on that a little bit in that the how matters because we have to be more deliberate, right? If we see, hey, Tuesdays we do lunch, that's kind of— we don't need to think about it. But it's like most people's days are pretty scheduled. We're on Zoom, whatever. If we were best friends at work, we'd have to say, you know what? Let's, you know, let's say 8:30 Tuesday mornings. Let's make that our time or something. Like, we've got to find the time. So I make each other available.

Agreed. So it goes back to my comment about intentionality. And I encourage my leaders to do scheduled spontaneity. And it comes in 2 forms. You know, it might be on a Friday before you log off on the day, is do that Rolodex spin and just send a message. Hey, Peter, I was thinking of you. I hope you had a great week. It is about thinking about how you're hosting your meetings on Zoom. One of the things I hear consistently is we're in back-to-back Zoom meetings, don't even have time for a bathroom break at home. I mean, that's just madness, but I know I've been through it myself. And invariably, when we get onto the Zoom call, it's straight down to, what are you doing? Peter, where's that project? What are you doing? What are you doing? It's taking a moment back to reinsert the water cooler conversations, the transition conversations as you are walking through the office. And checking in on how are you doing. And here's why.

Because I've been playing around with this idea for a little while that I've been calling agendalessness, right? So it used to be that hallway time, if I bumped into you on the way to the coffee room or something, we didn't have an agenda, but like, oh, great to see you. Hey, you know what? I'm working— like, we would immediately fill it with something engaging and fun. And, oh, I need— you know what? As long as I've got you, whatever. But like you said, every Zoom meeting, here's the 6 people that will be here for 30 minutes, and we've got to get through this. And people tend to be more punctual now than they did in physical meetings, meandering in and out, because, you know, you can't make the claim you were in the elevator and all that sort of stuff. But it's, it's, it's like you said, it's like lights, camera, action. There's an on button and an off button.

It's straight on.

And none of that stuff that happens even at the end of a meeting. Hey, can I grab you and let's go walk down the hall together? So You've got to create those opportunities.

You do.

It takes energy.

You know, it takes energy, but it takes thoughtfulness because what's at risk if you don't? And our research has shown that 20% of leaders who've completed our Ally Mindset Profile say that they have no friends at work, not even one. And 67% of the leaders who've completed the Ally Mindset Profile are saying that their success has been undermined by the words or actions of a colleague. So think about that. Results are being impacted not just at a business level, at a team level, but at an individual level.

Yeah.

And you can't sit back and— I've tried it— the psychic approach of willing others to change. Or again, I've tried it, the passive-aggressive, let's drop some subtle hints and hope they get it. The only change you can affect if you want to have a friend at work, and you do need them, Then you need to be a friend at work. So you have to go first, one conversation at a time.

And that was the next point I was going to make from the book is where you build on the Gallup question, which Gallup basically just asked, do you have a friend at work? Yes, no, period.

Right.

And that filled into those percentages. You sort of flipped it and said, well, are you that friend? Because if you're not that friend, therefore you don't have it. But the onus is on you. It's not that, you know, I'm surrounded by jerks. Why can't you start the friendship? And by the way, the other piece is the friend word is an interesting word. We're friends on Facebook. It has been redefined in the context of work. Doesn't necessarily have to be parallel with your best friend from when you were an undergrad or you went to grade school with or your neighbor. There are different meanings to the word, different nuances.

There are. And it goes back— I mean, Dr. Bill Freeman has just put a comment here that he says, what we do is as important as how we do it. And I couldn't concur more. And I've seen too many leaders who focus on the what we do and how we organize, but aren't as vested in the who we are and how we relate. And if we aren't deliberate and thoughtful, that's when the miscommunications can happen, the feeling of disconnection. And therefore, why am I surprised, or why is anybody surprised when you see the great resignation or quiet quitting. If I don't feel like I belong, if I don't feel like you care about me and our success, then I'm going to give you just enough. I'm not going to go the extra mile. And the way you do it is by being able to define what does it mean to be a friend at work or an ally, whatever language works for you. But moving from the reactive of, do I have a friend at work? No, because Peter got the promotion or the glossy project I wanted and moving it and reframing it as a proactive, am I a friend at work, which allows me then to go first and show up in the right way to ensure your success, my success, and therefore we're better together.

So 2 things I want to hit on. One is, I think quiet quitting, quite frankly, is just a rebranding of actively disengaged. I think it's— I don't think there is anything new about quiet quitting. other than it's a slick, sexier way of saying, are you disengaged? Right? Because people are throwing this phrase and this terminology around. It's like, ooh, it's a new concept. The Great Resignation is a new phenomenon from what I can see. Right? But quiet quitting to me, maybe it's just me griping, I don't think that's a new thing. I think it's a new way to say it.

It's a new alliteration. I wrote a tirade against it on LinkedIn, which people can go and look at. And what I don't like about the phrase quiet quitting is it actually is portraying employees, all of us, in a poor light. And when you actually look at what quiet quitting is, it's doing the job description and not going the extra mile. Well, the job description is what you've actually hired me to do. Why should I be penalized just because I'm not going the extra mile? So I believe, yes, you're right, it's similar to and rebranding of, but the—

Yeah.

Great Resignation 2 years of sitting at home. And again, I was reading an article recently where employees were reporting that nobody had called in the last 2 weeks just to check in on how they were doing.

Right.

And that is such a simple first step. Make a reminder on your calendar. Use it at the beginning of your meeting, like I said earlier on. But closing that gap isn't rocket science.

Right. Carve out 30 minutes a week, catch up, and then you'll figure out who just If it's not on the calendar, it doesn't happen. So I want to go to the book, but I want to go on a sort of a different path if we could. So the book has been out now 6 weeks or something like that, right? And you've done all the things that I see all my friends do that write books. You've got your friends supporting it, everyone you can sort of pushing it. What has been different? Because there's been, what, 8, 10 years since the last book?

5 since The Future-Proof Workplace and 8 since Cultivate came out. Yes.

You've got 8, 5, and now. What has been the same and what has been different as you've launched now your 3rd, your 3rd book?

What has been the same? Well, it's still a lift. I mean, you talked about writing with co-authors and even the nuances of, well, how do you write? Do you write in a 3rd person's voice? And how do we differentiate? Because it gets very clunky very quickly. Thankfully, we were able to work that out. The same is that writing the book is hard. Getting ready to launch a book is hard. Selling a book is hard. Getting people to write reviews online is hard.

And that's what I'm talking about is more the, the, I mean, everybody thinks the hard part about a book is writing it. And it is until you're done writing it and you now have to go into life, right? Life of book, which I think most people would agree it's far harder to actually unleash the book and get it out into the wild and all that. So that's where I was going. What do you, what are you seeing that's similar? And what are you seeing that's different?

And what's different is podcasts. So conversations like this, we've done a lot of those. And what that has done is obviously I can do it from the comfort of my home office.

Right.

And unlike in the past with Cultivate, going on the road and doing a bit more of a traditional old, well, traditional book tour as was, and the speaker circuit. the advancement of technology and all of us to be more receptive to sit and listen to podcasts or watch some of these live streams just gives us access to a broader range of folks that might not otherwise have got there. And I think what's different from us is we have a thriving leadership development practice. So the book is augmenting the work that we're doing. It is part of the package as opposed to some authors where it might be the lead point of introducing them to the world.

Well, touch on this, if you will, because I think that there's a lot of misalignment between the publishing universe and the author universe. So there's a brief moment— Ooh, say more. Well, there's a brief moment in time where everybody's interests are aligned. We want to sell more books, right? Because bottom line is publisher only makes money number of units sold times a profit margin. Author, thought leader makes money. Yeah, they make some money on that, but that's not really why they're doing it, right? They have other ways to monetize the ideas that live in the book. You have your company and all the different things that you do there. So there's that brief moment in time where everybody's aligned, everybody wants to get the book out. And then the publisher, they tend to think in kind of 90-day cycles and then they move away. The reality is most business books don't sell well and they do better year 2 than year 1. And most business books have a shelf life, no pun intended, of at least 5 to 7 years. But the publisher, they're really, really concerned about you for a brief period of time. So I guess my question to you is, where do you see those conflicts and how do you work around them, where you're aligned with the publisher and where you're not?

So I don't know quite how to answer that because, I mean, as I think about the ally mindset profile that we introduce in You, Me, We, abundance and generosity and focused on mutual success is our operating system at Scripps. Sky team. And so far our experience with Page Two has been phenomenal as our publishers for You, Me, We and the support that they've given. So it's— I don't have any gaps. And I think maybe because I go in as a very pragmatic— I'm not looking to retire and sit on a beach and drink drinks with an umbrella based on royalties from You, Me, We. What we said was we have a message worth sharing, one that's gonna have an impact at an individual level.

Sure.

Let's get it out there. So what am I missing, Peter? You're the guy who's the professional.

Well, I guess maybe— I don't know if I'd call it missing— is, yeah, I don't think it's the, the, you know, this will be the next Harry Potter, right? And they'll be making theme parks on You, Me, We.

Oh my goodness, that would be an interesting ride. I don't know if it'd be a roller coaster or a ghost train.

Yeah, but, but I think oftentimes The strategy and the launch and the success of the book, the real beneficiary would be the entity, would be SkyTeam in this case, and the things that you do, that it's a great net new client acquisition vehicle. It's a great way to elevate your brand. It's a great way to reintroduce yourself to previous clients with a newer version of the message.

Yeah.

Which doesn't necessarily take lots of units. I mean, you get the right book in the right 50 hands of the right people and triple your business and tell your publisher not, well, I only sold 50 books, but they were the right 50 books. That's not going to be a good conversation, right?

Well, thankfully, I know we have an order going in this week for 500 copies to support some events that we're doing next year. So you're right. I think for first-time authors, especially thinking about that life of book and how you're going to integrate it, because if it just sits catching dust on your bookshelf or anybody's bookshelf, then it's not serving anyone, whether it's you, the client, or the publisher.

Right.

So for us, I know what our 2023 projects look like in terms of revamping and refreshing all of our online content to go with it. So you have the book, but if you want to learn more now, there's the self-serve online content. We have our new keynotes that are now getting booked. I just took a booking for November of next year. And then there are other programs if you want to bring it in holistically, either for your team or your organization. So thinking of the book as an ecosystem and different ways to engage the conversation with others, whether it's self-help or, no, guided help through SkyTeam, that's a win-win for everybody.

Yep. No, and then that's, that's exactly where I'm thinking. And again, that's where the primary benefit to you as an author or co-author go, you will make more money on those initiatives than you most likely will on the book sales over some period of time. So, yeah, that's the only place I was going, is that it's just the way it is, is that lack of total alignment, or long-term alignment, I should say. Not that a publisher ever wishes the author not do well, but— But it's just how long can they afford to put resources on a project that continues to not just sit on a shelf, but sell at a slower pace? Cool. So you mentioned speaking and you just got booked for something almost a year out from now. You've done a lot of keynote speaking over the years. I'll just ask you in terms of what's the same and what's different there? Like what's your mix now of in-person mode and yeah, yeah.

Well, obviously during the pandemic, everything shifted to doing it through the camera. And so upping our game, because I'll be honest, before the pandemic, I was a real cynic and like, online learning, virtual facilitation, it sucks.

Mm-hmm.

And it does when it's done poorly. But Eric Spencer on our team is phenomenal. I mean, he's got the full music, the sound effects and everything. And again, not gimmicky, but making it more compelling and interactive. We have the full lights, camera, action, and thankfully made that investment from day one of the pandemic versus waiting. and finding the shelves were empty. But what I'm finding now as I get back into the 3-dimensional world is 2 things. Personally, having spent 2 years with no shoes or just slippers, heels suck. So flats for me. And the mental and physical stamina required to be in person is different to the mental and physical stamina of connecting through the camera because oozing emotion and getting enthusiasm, that takes one set of skills when I'm here in front of the webcam. But it's also a different set of skills when I'm in a room with 300 leaders and getting them engaged in the conversation. But the biggest challenge I'm finding is how to design keynotes and programs invariably for clients who are now saying, well, I've got 3-dimensional in-the-room folks, but you now also need to accommodate for people who are watching online. And by the way, we can or we can't give them breakout rooms. So how do you try to reduce the amount of multitasking that we know that is going on for the virtual folks, but make them feel part of the conversation?

Well, that's a great observation because I think from the client side, they're going, okay, well, I'm paying your fee and 300 people will be here in Scottsdale. It really doesn't cost us anything. It's really kind of marginal. It's like, we might as well turn on the switch and let everybody around the globe, you know, or the other office facilities that didn't come in, uh, experience it. But it's a different experience, and it's a real—

Very different.

You know, when you're in virtual mode, I like how you said before it's different, not that one's better or worse. It's one level of energy, and you still get that, you know, that adrenaline hit when you're coming off the virtual stage as you do in the physical stage. But trying to do both at the same time is really, really hard because on the one hand you're thinking, am I ignoring the virtual? You know, there's 10 screens that Am I ignoring those people? Well, that's kind of weird because I can see these people right here.

You know, it just feels rude. I mean, it's maybe that's the British thing, but it feels rude. And so that's something that I and my team have been doing, which is trying to be thinking diligently around how do we make activities or table group discussions interactive? How do we use— I mean, there are a number of software tools that we'll use. That will allow everybody, whether they're in the room or virtual, to participate in a card sort activity and for their results to be presented. And now they're part of the conversation versus sitting on the fence and observing the experience.

Yep. And I think that one of the changes is the edutainment side of the keynote world is going away because I want to be entertained. I can turn Netflix on.

Yes.

Right? So that sort of whatever, the overly dramatic and the Olympic skier and all these things, not that they're bad stories, but if it's just a story or a personal thing or really woo-woo and push it up and pump it up and whatever, that companies just aren't making those investments. They look at, particularly as we're moving into a recessionary time, Making investments in content and thought leadership in whatever format it's delivered that connect to capabilities that are being developed that drive business outcomes.

So way more interactivity. I mean, we just did a program. It turned into a 1-day event for 140 leaders for a new client and giving them the opportunity. If you're going to invest in bringing 140 people together in person, then it can't be talking heads. And their original, their original phrase to us, which tugged my heart, was, well, if you're not available, I suppose we can just wing it. And it was like, you're not winging anything, because if you do this poorly now, you will be paying catch-up for every event that you do in the future.

Yeah.

So we moved things around. We were able to go and support them, and it moved from being just a 90-minute keynote to a full-day event. And what we did was to make sure that there were plenty of opportunities For people to meet a stranger, essentially colleagues that maybe they've never met in person because they onboarded during the pandemic, or we've just lost touch with because you're sitting in one geographic location, I'm in another, and we've been through the pandemic.

No, and I think that's a great point because we can deliver content fairly efficiently this way. What we haven't really cracked the code as well on is how do we connect? How do we do that community thing, right? Like every time I did a little research in the middle of the pandemic, and it was basically asking a bunch of event planners, tell me about the best event you ever did. And all of them came back with, oh, the theme. Oh, we did one on resilience and we had flying monkeys. And there was an event that did this and people made bicycles. It was always about what the activities were and all that. And then I would ask people, tell me about the best event you went to.

Yes.

And they would say something like, I don't remember if it was Scottsdale or Orlando, because it's all kind of the same after a while. I'm not sure what association it was, but that was the first time Morgan and I met at the bar, you know, and we became great friends ever since. And we've known each other for 12 years. And since then, I've been a client and she's been a client, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They can't even remember the where. What they remember is that was a great event because that's where a relationship—

It's the human connection, the relationships. That's the whole point. And to be— and I want to pick on 2 things there. One is the opportunity when you're coming face-to-face. So if you're doing a retreat with your team, for example, don't just pack the agenda with business stuff. Also build in time for the who we are and how we relate. But I also want to point out that it is possible to do it through Zoom. And you mentioned in the introduction that I'm a member of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches Group.

Yep.

And I met a few of those members for the first time in person just before the pandemic.

Yeah.

But beyond that, every relationship that I've built in that group has been through the camera. And we had the opportunity to get together in the summer. And I can tell you, it was like meeting long-lost family and friends.

Yes.

And so with intentionality, if you focus on the camera, you can build deep and personal ties with others. But you have to choose to do it and you have to choose to be vulnerable and share your stories and connect in the way we would do it maybe in 3 dimensions, either at the bar or over coffee or over lunch. But now I'm doing it here between 10 and 10:30. Yeah, it's intentionality. It's showing up and it's leaning in and choosing to do it that makes the difference. Yeah.

And I've had a bunch of those experiences as well, where then you meet these people and you've never, you know, you, they're true friends. But you haven't physically, you know, had that cup of coffee with them or been in the same city or in the same— pretty trippy kind of amazing experience.

It is.

Yeah. Good stuff. Well, I appreciate you spending some time with us today. Any final— no pressure, but any final parting amazing words of wisdom that will be life-changing to the audience? No pressure.

Well, when it comes to cultivating our relationships, personal or professional, It isn't whether or not you have a friend at work, it's whether you are a friend at work. So I just encourage everybody, pick one relationship that you know that you're either curious about or could do with some extra care and attention, and give that person a call, send them a text, send them an email now just to say that you're thinking of them. I guarantee that over time, you and they will reap the benefits.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.