Thought Leadership Leverage - Peter Winick

Hey everyone, what's up? Today I get to talk to Peter Winick. Peter is one of the smartest thought leader guys that I know. He works with a ton of smart people, uh, some of my friends like Steve Shapiro and other folks. He's got over 20 years experience working with folks like that. He has also been working— worked with folks like IBM, Kraft, Microsoft, Avon, Hyatt, and built and managed several consulting professional development organizations. What I really like about Peter is that he reads as much or more than I do, which is freaking amazing because I love books. Peter and I met, gosh, 8, 9 years ago, uh, when Steve Shapiro put out Personality Poker. Then we hung out at a bar and sang along with a bad piano player, had dinner, and since then I've learned a lot from Peter, and I'm just glad that have him here and he's working on some cool stuff. So I'm like, hey, I should finally get you on my show. So what's up, Peter? How you doing, buddy?

How are you? Good to spend some time with you today.

Yeah, you too, man. You too. It's always, always a treat. So, so you work with all these thought leaders though, but that doesn't come accidentally. I mean, I was looking through your, your kind of your greatest hits pictures there and I see Seth Godin and Steve Forbes and Steve Shapiro and I'm like, wow, man. That's pretty cool. So how did you get started in this kind of thought leadership leverage space?

Yeah, so it's a great question. So the way I got started is, uh, by the way you should get started in any business is I saw an opportunity in the marketplace. So about, uh, I don't know, a dozen years or so ago, I was working exclusively with Keith Rossi running Keith's speaking business and training business when we launched Never Eat Alone, and that was a wild success. We sold a half a million units and Keith became a I was like top 10 speaker in the States and things were awesome. But, you know, I learned a lot during that time that led me to believe that there was a market that needed to be served. And what I learned was, as an author, as a thought leader, as a speaker, it's your first time doing X, writing a book, getting out on the circuit, getting your name out there, building your brand. And at every step along the way, there's an opportunity to make a fatal mistake, number one. And number two is the way you were being served by the marketplace was sort of— it was basically an army of people that cared about you a lot for a little bit of time. So if I was a book agent, I really cared a lot about Phil until we got the deal. Then it wasn't that I didn't care about you, but I have to move on to the next thing, right? If I'm a speaking agent, I care a lot about Phil when I'm booking a gig. After that, I don't care. So nobody was looking at this sort of holistically, and I said, wait a minute, there's something broken here. And, um, I had a client years ago, I don't know, 10 years ago, early on, and they called me and said, "Hey, I'm at an airport and I've got a buddy that I'd like for you to talk to." And I said, "Oh, give me a little background. What'd you say to them?" Etc. He said, "I was in a rush. I just said, 'You're sort of like Jerry Maguire for nerds,' and I sort of like that." Anyway.

Oh, wow. No, that makes sense.

So, wow.

So first, I didn't know that you ran Ferrazzi's campaign. That was one of the first early business books that I finally got into, like, actually talked about and shared, because for a long time I would read books and I never shared them. So Never Eat Alone was one of the first ones that I really enjoyed. And second of all, I think that's interesting that you said you saw a need in the marketplace and you started your business there.

So who—

like, what was it, like one client, or did you— like, did— was there like a convergence? Were you at a conference? I mean, how did that— how did that practically happen?

Well, it was a combination of a lot of things. I realized that, you know, I worked with Keith for, I think it was 3 and a half years, maybe 4, something like that. And it was awesome and it was exhausting and it was amazing and there was a lot to learn. And, you know, I got to a point where I said, what's, you know, there's clearly a need in the marketplace to do this for lots and lots of others. And I'd rather diversify the portfolio and not be only connected to one thought leader. That's a nice way of saying it satisfies my ADD. By having a portfolio of clients as opposed to one to work with exclusively. So you could, you can spin that any way you'd like, but yeah, that's cool, that's cool.

So, well, not just ADD, right, but that also gets you exposed to other ideas and other ways of thinking. So what— so, uh, for me, I mean, like, I get you manage the whole kind of relationship piece, but break that down, Peter. Like, if a new author You know, a CEO of a company retires and decides they want to transition from being the CEO of, you know, Pizza Hut to being Peter Winick's client and being a great best-selling author. So what do you do? What— take us through that.

Well, there's 4 things that, that we do for any of our clients, and I can talk in a bit about what the client base looks like, but the first thing that we do is, is build strategy., right? Because without a strategy, it's hopeless. And what's fascinating is, you know, given how smart the client base is, you know, if you use your CEO of Pizza Hut or whatever as an example, that person would never open a pizza stand in Louisville, Kentucky or whatever without doing a series of things— research and analytics and location. But people sort of dive into the content business because they don't really think it's a business. They don't think of it with the same business rigor that they would entering any other field or profession. So first thing we want to do is build a strategy, right? And the strategy is going to tell you sort of who's your market, how do you serve them, how do you differentiate, what your price point is, and, you know, any business strategy applied to the business of thought leadership because it is a business. Second thing we would do is build a brand and a platform. So what is the brand that's going to represent that person, right? Because the world doesn't need another sales whatever or leadership whatever or content, whatever. It needs something different and unique and experiential. And that's that piece of it. Third thing we would do is build products, offerings, and solutions. So what are the products, offerings, and solutions that are derivative of that person's content? A book is technically a product, but a book is typically not your moneymaker. So it's books, it's speeches, it's assessment tools, it's video-enabled training, it's tools, it's selection tools. There's a whole sort of suite of There's a lot of cool things that you can do with content today, particularly digital, that's really, really interesting. And then the last thing that we would do is build business in partnership with them. So how do we take all this stuff, the strategy, the brand, the products, and monetize it? So that's the— those are all the things that we would do.

Wow, that's cool. So it's not just any schmuck that's gonna come up and say they wanna work with Peter Winick. They've gotta have some credentials. Right? They've got to have a brand that's worth monetizing, would you say?

Well, they have to have something to say, right? So, so, you know, if you, if you look at what makes a great thought leader, right? So there are— I don't even know what the latest numbers are, but, but, you know, more books coming out every day than anybody could read, more people sort of throwing their ring into that speaker space than will ever be paid to speak professionally. So the question is Why you? You know, and I'm always sort of pushing back on the clients, say, yeah, yeah, that's nice, who cares? Tell me why I should care about what you have to say and why it's different coming from you. And even when we talk about things like, who are your competitors? They're like, competitors? Like, yeah, competitors. This is the same business discipline and rigor that you would apply to anything. Like, yeah, if I have a choice to learn about accountability or leadership or presentation skills, I probably have choices, and why are you a better option?

Yeah, yeah, well, that— I think that's the one thing that I hear a lot, is either everybody is my customer or that there's no competition. So how do you get past that? With, uh, you know, I mean, human egos as they are, we often will say, well, everybody can benefit from my message, Peter. Why not? We— why don't we just go after everybody?

Yeah, so the problem with going after everybody— so, so let's, let's sort of break that down. There's two pieces to that. One would be my content is universal and could potentially benefit lots and lots of different psychographic demographics, age group, whatever, right? Okay, so that's cool. The flip side of that is unless you've got unlimited resources and marketing dollars and time and energy, etc., I can't market to everybody. So I would rather take this universal content. So I'll give you an example with Frozy, so that was, you know, Never Eat Alone was about building business relationships and how do you do that for a personal benefit and a professional benefit. First thing we did with Keith is move him away from the networking space, 'cause way back in the day he was known as America's Greatest Networker and I looked at that and said, ugh, that doesn't sort of really represent what that brand is and what's different about it. And then the second piece we said is where do we go, because relationships, yeah, that is a universal piece. Targeted the sales side of a Fortune 1000 organization, and to be agnostic to whatever selling processes or methodologies they were using, to go after that. Why did we do that? Not because we're particularly bright, but you rob banks because that's where the money is. Sales spends a lot of money. Sales cares more about relationships than IT folks from a willingness to fund an initiative to develop those skills in that population.

Ah, that's very smart. So, so the positioning was— is one, because we want to narrowband our message, and secondly, because we want to, as you said, rob a bank where the money is. So go after a group that we know has a propensity to spend for personal development, for, you know, for sales training, for things like that. Okay, so that makes— that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.

And then, you know, the other thing I would say is, you know, One of the many amazing things from a marketing sales perspective, living in sort of the internet age or the information age, is we live in the age of the long tail. So I can now find, you know, people in any industry, right? Newly minted people managers in SaaS. Like, okay, 10 years ago that would have been a mother to find. I can go online and find exactly where those people are— LinkedIn, Twitter, conferences they're going to, the events they're going to, and really hit it from a long-tail perspective and bang the drum loudly there versus the days of having 3 choices on television and your book strategy was praying you'd get on the Today Show or Oprah. That doesn't work anymore, and you're better off going after multiple niches that you can tweak your content just a bit to make them feel as if that was designed only for them.

So the Oprah effect, that's gone? So now I can't just get on Ellen and my book's gonna sell a million copies, Peter?

No, well, you know, it's, well, it may. Ellen doesn't have business books on, you know, unless it's The Art of Boogie. But even if you look at like the Today Show, I don't know if you remember, but it wasn't that many years ago, maybe 10, where at least 3 times a week they'd have an author on. And some would be general interest, et cetera, but at least 1 or 2 of those would be business. I would be hard-pressed to remember the last time they had a business book author or any author on.

Yeah, maybe, well, maybe Gretchen Rubin. That's about it. That's about it. And she's a nice— she's squishy, right? She's in between some business but mostly self-help.

I would say she's more on the consumer side of the house. I don't think there's a big business application there, maybe a marginal, but yeah.

Yeah. Hmm, interesting. So, so multiple little niches. So you talked about the ability to target. So, so talk, talk us through that a little bit more because I think that's That's really interesting and really important for folks to understand that the goal is not to broadcast as wide of a net as you can, but to pick a group and talk right to them.

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be one group. You can pick, you know, I wouldn't do more than 2 or 3 as a starting point. But the whole trick is you've got your content. I look at content as ingredients. If we were to go into your kitchen or my kitchen and sort of empty out what we have, what do we have? You've got milk, sugar, butter, eggs, whatever. And you say, oh cool, we can make a cake today. We can make cupcakes today. We can make cookies today. What should we make? And that's the way I look at content, is that you could modify with the same raw ingredients, the same models, processes, methodologies to make it really, really relevant. You probably remember this, but I don't know, 6, 8, 10 years ago, all of a sudden there were these mini cupcake stores everywhere making a boatload of money. And all they did was take a cupcake that was, you know, the size of your head and put it to the size of your thumb and on a per-unit basis charge like 10 times the money. And it's like, that's sort of what content is, right? So today we're moving into a world where people don't want the big cupcake, they don't want to sit through a 2-day program, they want little nibbles, they want a bunch of 3-minute short-form micro-learning pieces. So then ask yourself, can I take my book, my content, my stuff, and push it out to a bunch of little snack-sized nibbles? Because that's how people want to consume content today.

Yeah, I really like that. I think that's so important that we just basically repackage the good stuff that we already have and re-put that together together. So, so we got books, you talked about short-form video, right, 3-minute video. So, so what, what about these longer courses, Peter? I mean, are they even still selling? Are we selling a series of, you know, 30-minute courses? What are you seeing for your folks?

Well, so, so there's some macro trends that you need to really be aware of. So the days of taking taking a population, an organization, and sitting them through 3 weeks of training or 2 days of consecutive training are not over, full stop. But the trend is that is declining big time. So I would not want to be entering a marketplace that's declining, right? So you may need to have some longer-term workshops for a specific subset of a population that you're trying to get, but it's not going to be where the money comes from. You have to understand how is your target market consuming content and are you aligned with that methodology? And for better or worse, we live in a world today where you're at, you know, having coffee or cocktails with somebody and they'll tell you they watched a TED Talk yesterday, the whole thing, all 18 minutes, as if, you know, they read War and Peace, right? But that's— so you can't beat them, join them. If we're living in a world where people want things in short bursts, sort of the Netflixification of content, then give it to them that way.

Yeah, definitely give them what they want. So yeah, that, that's so important. So instead of trying to swim upstream, we need to give them what they want. So, so what's the, what's the macro trend on business books, Peter? Is it longer books, shorter books? I mean, I would guess just from what you've said, I would guess it's shorter, but how short?

Yeah, it's interesting. So it depends on the book, right? So, so there is no one category of business books. There's business books that are steeped in academia and research. There's business books that are, God help us, parables where we're telling stories in the form of a turtle and a pickle and a giraffe or whatever. There are a few of those that are good. I find them not particularly stimulating if you can visualize taking a business book and turning it into a Saturday morning cartoon for a 7-year-old, but so be it. Then there are shorter-form business books. It used to be a business book was, you know, 250, 250 pages or so. There's a lot there in that shorter form, the 120, 130. I don't think there's a general rule. I think again, it doesn't matter what you think as the author, what does your market want? Right? And if you're, I had a client several years ago that wrote an 800-page book on change. So the first thing I said to him was, wow, that's some heavy lifting. And he was CEO of a couple of companies, very accomplished guy. And I said, who has influenced your thinking on change? Because it's obviously not the first guy to think about it. He said, I didn't want to read anything else on change it would bias my thinking. And I'm like, what? It's like, it sort of didn't make sense. And then of course I read the book and said, ah, okay, so unfortunately there's not a lot of original thinking here. You know, I can show you in Chapter 3 where that maps to change management over here. And like, I don't understand where your voice is here because it's sort of lost. So that was a little disturbing. So I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all. People like storytelling. You know, they like it a little bit shorter. You know, what's interesting now is when you buy books digitally, you can't sense the heft of a book. Like when back in the old days, you walk into Barnes Noble, you can say, "Geez, that's pretty heavy," you know.

Yeah, yeah, interesting. So, okay, so you mentioned a couple things I think that are interesting about books. One is the whole 800-page book, yeah, that's probably gone. People have one copy of the Bible or the Quran or whatever, they don't need another one. That's the first thing I think that's instructive. And secondly, your point about people don't know how big a digital book is, so there is no perfect size. I think that's as important of a trend as any when we think about how books are sold, though I would— though all the research I read, all the reports I read says that business books are still primarily consumed physically.

No, I don't know about that. I think we're at the 40-50% digital mark.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Wow.

Wow. So how do we stand out then, Peter? What's the way to stand out if there's, you know, as you said, more books than ever being produced every day, more speakers than ever getting up or trying to get up on stage and never going to get paid? Why do we bust through all that crap?

Well, I mean, in a word, it's stupidity. Folks. I think what you need to be doing is thinking about why— I mean, I've talked more people out of writing a book than anyone else I know. And the reason is I know what it takes. I know that it will take hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours and thousands and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars if you actually do the accounting on your time. So, you know, I think you need to think about why you're writing the book. How does it connect to the other suite of products, services, solutions, and offerings that you have. And I think the biggest thing that you need to come to the realization of on the front end is you are the, you know, SVP of sales and marketing for your book, full stop. Whether you go self-publishing or a big New York publishing house. I got thrown out of, proudly thrown out of a meeting at, well, I won't name, but a big New York publisher because they, They signed up my client, multiple New York Times bestseller. They gave them the marketing plan. I said, you know, when you go to Disney World, at least there's a disclaimer that says pregnant women and people with back conditions shouldn't ride this. There should be a disclaimer in your contract that says, I, the author, acknowledge that I am in charge of the success of my book via sales and marketing. You know, and that's the fact that those are the realities. So if you ask what it takes, you know, do you have a solid social media platform?? Do you have relationships and contacts? How are you going to sell the book? And most people, most writers are more jazzed, more excited about the creation process, the getting the content out on paper or digitally or, you know, on keyboard or whatever, than they are about getting the word out and the messaging and the marketing. And I think if you're not willing to put in the hard work and effort to do that— and that doesn't mean you wouldn't hire folks to help you along the way— then the book is going to die on the vine. You're going to spend thousands of hours of your life producing something that 11 people read.

That's so funny. So, okay, so the SVP of sales and marketing. So what, what practically, Peter, what does that even mean? So folks can get their arms around that, because a lot of, you know, a lot of authors aren't in sales or they're not in marketing and they don't understand what that really means. Can you break that down for us, please?

So I, I think it's like any other product, right? So if I was going to I don't know, the pen business. I would take a look at the pen and say, hmm, what part of the market do I want to serve? And how is my pen going to be better, quicker, cheaper, faster at solving some problem? This problem would be, you know, writing down something portably with ink than what is available in the marketplace. And most people sort of try to fast forward through that. Oh, I'll give it a pithy title. Nobody gives a crap about your title. Like, that might— gets, you know, like I just read, what was it, The Art of Not Giving an F?

Oh yeah, yep.

So okay, so that was cute. That got my attention strictly from the title perspective, but I'm not going to buy a book based on just the title because I've got better things to do with 5 hours of my time. So I actually skim through, get some homework, and said this is interesting, right? You know, so I think you need to figure out sort of what is the product, what is this book, what does it have to say, to whom does it have to say it, How is it better and different? And I think about making it less theoretical and more about what do I want from it. What people want, and you don't want to dilute it too far, is the 5 steps to, the 3 things to, the 7 steps to. I think if you go too far down that spectrum, you're bordering on a coloring book, you know?

Yeah.

And you don't want to go there.

So, interesting, interesting. But they— I agree with you though. I think that we have moved to a point where we no longer buy books to feel smart. We actually buy books to practically get smarter and actually execute something. Because I remember when I, you know, when I started reading business books— gosh, it's been 25 years now that I've been reading business books— I remember the big thing was you had to have a copy of the book the boss was reading on your desk.

Yeah, right.

Or you didn't look smart. And now, I mean, and actually an organization that I belong to, the CEO gave everybody a copy of one of the You know, the, the seminal business books.

Yeah.

And I remember 4 years after that happened, one of the C-level executives came by my desk and said, hey, you got a good book to read. And I handed her that book. And a year later, she comes back and hands me the book back and says, oh, by the way, we— I got this book, uh, 5 years ago. So, uh, thanks. Yeah, I have a copy, never having opened it. And now, you know, now we have to actually crack the book and see what's inside. And that's where authors have shifted from making it look like you have a great book to actually having a book worth reading.

Well, I think to your point, it used to be seen as a top-down sort of thing, right? So 25 years ago, 20 years ago, when you're starting in the business world, your boss was some old dude, right? Probably younger than our age now, right? And so if he gave you something, he was smarter than you. We live in a multi-generational workplace now. So there's nothing wrong with if you're a 27-year-old marketing ace digitally working for someone old like me where you've come across a book or a TED Talk or something and say, hey boss, this might be of interest to you. You know, I read this and this really talks about the principles of social media, whatever, right? And it is a two-way street. It's more of a dialogue. 20 years ago, you'd kind of be looked at like a jerk giving your boss a book on be a leader or manager or whatever, it would be sort of a passive-aggressive way to say, hey, you're kind of a jackass, right? Now knowledge sharing is, I think, an awesome thing. It's a great way to connect regardless of, you know, where you are in your career. You've got, you know, something you want to share with somebody that's thoughtful, I think it's always a great thing.

Yeah, well, and this shows you're paying attention, which is, you know, the boss might say, well, you know what, we're really struggling with giving each other— giving feedback effectively. Well, here's, you know, here's a book on giving feedback, or here's a TED Talk on giving feedback. And if you want to go deeper, right? So not only that, but I think the authors are more open to receiving that feedback. If you have questions about the book, I mean, not every author, but many of them actually want to talk to their audience. They want to get that feedback, right?

Right. And I think, you know, some of the attributes of great thought leaders are that we're living in an age of a dialogue, not a monologue. Books 25 years ago were monologue. I'm the brightest in the room on X. Here's my tome on whatever. Read it, study it, every word, and you too shall be great. Now it's more like, hey, here's what I'm thinking about persuasion. I've studied, I've researched it, but what are you doing? Tell me what you're doing in the field. And great thought leaders are thirsty for that. They want that. They want to understand. They get great intrinsic satisfaction of understanding how did you, Phil, use my thoughts and ideas in your world and we've never met.

Yeah, definitely. I think that, yeah, that is what makes people more apt to be a thought leader, is that they are more open to that. They're more like, hmm, I don't know everything. Maybe there's another book similar to mine that I can use as a complement or whatever. Because again, with a shorter book, you're not trying to be the be-all and end-all about any topic. You're trying to give your slant, some opinions, and some paint-by-numbers, a little bit anyway, on how to do that. So, hmm, interesting. So, all right, Peter, so we talked about how folks could, uh, you know, could get started with this, right? Starts with understanding audience and available market and all of that stuff, what their special message is. Um, we talked about all sorts of things, but if somebody's gonna really just, you know, that just from jump street, right, they're gonna start right today and they're gonna say, okay, in a year I want to have some sort of platform. I know the best answer is to hire you, but what else can you give them if they want to kind of dip their toe in a little bit slow? What would you say, how should they get started?

I think you get started by starting, right? So, so people make up excuses that say, I'm going to write a book. Well, that's a monumental task, right? So, so I wouldn't wake up today as a non-runner, right, and say This morning is the Boston Marathon. I think I'm going to do that. That sounds pretty cool. 26.2 miles. And yeah, I'm 30 pounds overweight, but I don't know, I'll wing it. Sort of cool. It sounds like fun. You know, if you fancy yourself a writer, right? Start with a blog. Start with an interview. Start with shaping the content and the ideas. And one of the cool things about the world we live in today is, you know, by the time— if you've written a book, it's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours in isolation. There's a good chance you can get it wrong. If you've got 3 or 4 ideas and say, you know, I think my book's going to be somewhere here, let me go interview 5 people, or let me just write 10 blog posts. And the data that we get today— throw something up on LinkedIn and the world will tell you that sucks or that's interesting. And it has nothing to do with what you think. You have to separate 'I think this is really fascinating' versus the reality of the stuff that you think is sort of a throwaway nothing might be what resonates with folks. Throw it out there, test it, understand it, modify it, play with it again. And I think continue to do that, you know, it's working out the different muscles in your thought leadership.

Cool. So test it out, get something out there. I like the idea of a LinkedIn blog because that is where the audience is. If you're a, if you're a business person, that's where your audience is. They're expecting content there, they're looking for it. That's a great suggestion. So Last question here, Peter Winick. What are you reading these days? What's stimulating your brain to think differently? Because you're always reading something new and something exciting. So what's going on in your world from a reading perspective?

It's funny that you should ask. So, you know, I'm typically in the midst of, you know, 2 or 3 books from clients. It's rare that I read any non-business books because I'm just whatever. But I'm actually almost finished reading Corkdork. Which is this journalist went undercover in the world of sommeliers.

Oh yeah, right.

And I think I'm going to Napa next week. So that's, I mean, you caught me at an off moment, but I did just finish reading prior to that, you know, The Art of Not Giving an F, which a lot of people say I probably didn't need to read that.

Yeah, I would say that, was that autobiographical at all, Peter, or what?

No, I kind of liked his, his take on it, you know. Because, I mean, because the take was we give too much of an F to things that don't really matter, you know, that only we care about, you know. And the more you can let go of the things that stress you out and nobody, like in the grand scheme of things don't really matter. You know, most, you know, I've been to unfortunately lots and lots of funerals and I've yet to be at one and somebody say, and there was that PowerPoint in 2012 that he stayed up for 3 days in a row. And wow, that really, that really represented him, right? Like, have you ever heard that?

No, I miss that too. Never in an elegy do I hear, you know what, and he worked an extra 15 minutes every day, and that just made all the difference.

Right, right.

That's funny. That's good stuff. Well, so what's the new stuff that you're working on and how do people get a hold of you, Peter?

Working on a lot of new stuff. Let's see, what are we working on? I did a huge book launch, actually a business launch with a bus tour for a great client in Carmel, Indiana called Culture Good. Doing a lot of work in the innovation creativity space now with Dr. John Keogh out on the West Coast. What else are we working on? A few other things that are in the hopper that are interesting. There's no shortage. Some of the things I don't wanna sort of put out there yet 'cause it'll be dated pretty soon. But yeah, there's just a lot of, there's never a, as flooded as the world is with content, it's like anything else, there is never a shortage of great stuff. There's an abundance of mediocrity and crap, but at that sort of wow factor, never enough.

There you go, that's cool. Well, if folks wanna get ahold of you, I know the website is thoughtleadershipleverage.com. So where, if they wanted to ask you some questions or see if they're a good fit for you, Where, which social network or how would they get best in touch with you, Pete?

Yeah, so they can just email me, peter@thoughtleadershipleverage.com. That's probably the best way to do it. You know, we've got LinkedIn and Twitter and all that kind of stuff too, but the easiest thing is, you know, old school email. It winds up on my phone or my laptop or wherever and iPad, and I'll actually respond, sort of retro, it's kind of cool.

Yeah, that is cool. Well, and that's one of the things that I like best about you is I do, you know, you respond to your own stuff. You know, you get back to me and you, you're very helpful that way and always sharing good stuff. I enjoy your blog a lot. So folks, thank you for listening. Yeah, for sure. I mean, people, you definitely should check out fontleadershipleverage.com, read Peter's blog and his team. They're very smart. They have a lot of great ideas. You know, one day I hope to grow up and be smart enough to work with you, Peter.

One day you will.

Yeah, that's the goal. So cool, man. Well, thanks for being here, Peter. This was really, really helpful. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thanks, Phil.

Yeah.