Unlocking Thought Leadership & Business Growth with Peter Winick with Peter Winick : TMM 159

This episode is brought to you by Lumina Growth Lab. At Lumina, we help professional learning and development companies who are struggling with predictable lead flow, a sniper approach to attracting the ideal clients, and a system that qualifies leads so they can have a smoother sales process, finally have scalability, and ultimately take their business to the next level. Most of the time, our clients come to us frustrated because nothing seems to work outside of word of mouth and referral-based lead generation. But with the right strategy and support, they're able to confidently add new channels of lead generation, leading to a packed pipeline that creates sustainable revenue and year-over-year growth for cheaper than ever before because of the use of AI technologies. If that sounds like you or someone you know, connect with me on LinkedIn and I'd be happy to have a conversation with you about unlocking your business's potential. Now let's dive into today's episode. Welcome to The Marketing Matrix. I'm your host, Lisanne Murphy, and today I am joined by the one and only and super, super talented Peter Winick. Peter, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Guys, I had an opportunity to meet Peter recently and in our conversation, a few things that I really, really admire and love about Peter already. First of all, he is so smart. Like he is, he knows, he knows what he's doing. The second thing is that he is like, he just tells you how it is and he's very straight to the point. And so I know that he's gonna like dive in and like give you a ton of value today. And so I'm really, really excited about that. So Peter Winick is the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage. For the past two decades, he has helped individuals and organizations build and grow revenue streams through designing and growing their thought leadership platforms, as well as acting as a guide and advisor for increasing business-to-business sales of, of thought leadership products. Peter uses a combination of art, science, logic, focus, passion, and creativity to transform a thought leader's great ideas into a platform and practice so they can effectively reach business leaders and executives to serve them the tools they and their organizations need. Peter Winick is among the top 50 B2B thought leaders and influencers to work with in 2023, in addition to being on Thinkers360's top 100 thought leaders overall and on the top 10 thought leaders marketing list. So guys, wherever you're at, give a huge round of applause. We are very lucky and very excited to have Peter with us today. So again, Peter, thank you so much for coming.

Thanks so much.

So I would love to know a little bit of your background in terms of like, how did thought leadership become such an important part of your understanding of like how businesses need to grow and become a part of the world? Like how did, how did that, where did the genesis of that come from for you?

Yeah. Well, ironically, as a strategy guy, I'd love to say that there was a deliberate plan and strategy that was executed flawlessly to got me where I am, but absolutely not true. Right. So it was really the realization years ago, probably 20+ years ago, that what I had sort of decided were two separate things, two sides of the same coin, were really related. So I'll unpack that, right? So I've always been, now they would, the, they would say a lifelong learner, right? And always constantly reading and all that. Back when I was younger, that would be called a nerd was the technical term. So now, you know, lifelong learner sounds nicer than saying you're a nerd, but both could be true, right? So I was always just consuming as much as I could about primarily business things. 'Cause I was, I started my first business in my early twenties and, and you know, when you don't know what you don't know, that's the scary part of the matrix to be. The other side of the coin was always entrepreneurial from when I was a kid to the first businesses I started growing businesses, doing turnaround, selling businesses, whatever. But I always thought they were separate. And then I, I got called by a good buddy of mine who was doing turnaround work and said, let's go have a drink. So that's one way to get my attention. Great. So we met for a drink and he said, listen, I have this client. They're a communication consulting firm that does a lot of training and development globally on presentation skills, communication skills. And I said, stop. You've already bored me to death. I have no interest than anything like that. That sounds like hell, right? That just sounds boring. There's nothing interesting about that. Well, 3 drinks later, he starts, you know, telling me more and more of the story. I'm like, wow, it's actually an entrepreneurial thing. And what the light bulb that went off for me then was of the hundreds or probably thousands of books that I've read and articles and whatever from a bunch of people that I admired and information I took in, I never ever, ever stopped and said, what's their business model? 'Cause quite frankly, I didn't care. I spent $20, $30 on a book. Read the book, took an idea or two, implemented, did something with it, experimented with it, and so on. Now, really all I do is answer that question for, for my clients all day and night. Like, okay, what's the business model? 'Cause writing a book is not a business model. So that's the how I got here story.

I love that. I love that. Well, I, and honestly, I love that it, like you said, like it wasn't like this massive strategy, the fact that it like kind of happened organically. Uh, but it, you, it leveraged like your, your strategic brain. I think is really cool. So, okay. I wanna dive into that, like long publishing a book, writing a book is not a business strategy because literally, Peter, I talk to people on a weekly basis that they basically have the opinion that like, if I publish a book, then like everything will take care of itself. Like that is such a common, common misconception.

Well, it usually goes something like this. This is how it usually looks. They have a hypothesis or an idea for a book. They research, research, research. Then they start writing, they rewrite, they write some more. It takes far longer than it ever would. And then dot, dot, dot, rainbows and unicorns, like magic will happen. So not that I don't believe in magic, but that's a scary proposition to me. And I'd rather flip that process backwards and say, well, what would I like the outcome to be? Now, asterisk, in some cases you're writing a book 'cause it's just one of the reasons you're on the planet and you have to do it. Great. Got it.

Cool.

But if you're doing this as an investment of your time, your money, your energy, your resources, I think you have an obligation to yourself and your organization to say, What are the possible and potential outcomes and what can I do to increase the probability of those becoming reality?

I love that. So do you feel like, like with, for companies that have a book, like are there multiple business models behind it and it's kind of like choose which one fits you best? Or like, is it really like, you've got a book, this is the business model? Like, like walk me through that.

No. So I think the, the old model 20, 25 years ago was write a book, go out and speak. Write another book 2 years later, speak some more, raise your fee, you know, rinse, lather, repeat. And that's, that was a fine quaint model. Today, I, I think the exciting part and, and, and the fun part is there are like 20 or 30 different, maybe more underlying business models, meaning what can you do? I mean, a book is just one place where ideas and thoughts and such live, right? And it's got a beginning, a middle, and an end, and I could touch it and all these, sort of things. But really when you think about it as just a place where ideas live, then, then the question becomes, what are the other modalities, formats, vehicles that I can move these ideas in and out of to increase the impact these ideas have and generate the revenue that I'm looking to generate either actively or passively?

Hmm. Interesting. So like, can you go through, like, is it like for some it's a, they, they move it to video and YouTube channel, for others it's coaching, for others it's a course. Yeah, for sure. Like, Like, can you talk me through like some of those modalities? Yeah.

So some of the mod— some of the modalities are obviously turning it into training and development solutions, validated assessment instruments, all tools and things, uh, a pull-down library, situation-based library, licensing, certification, coaching, advising, getting on a board, right? So sometimes some— somebody's thinking, hey, I'm a C-level or a senior-level exec at a company. I'm going to leave this company sometime in the next 2 or 3 years, and I'd like to be on boards. Or for some, they're, they're in making the investment in thought leadership for the next chapter. For others, it's a logical extension of what they're currently doing. And I think that if you don't have a, a full understanding of the possibilities in terms of the types of businesses that you can launch from writing a book, then you're doing yourself a disservice by not investing the time to think about what those are or work with someone that can help you with that.

I love that. So, and where do you typically enter the conversation? Like, is it like, now I have a book, I don't know what to do, or like, I have a book, but like it isn't producing the magic that I I thought, like, like where do you typically enter the conversation with people in this process?

Well, I'm gonna answer that with where would I rather typically enter the conversation and then I'll answer the question. So for me, earlier is better, right? And we have talked more people out of writing a book than anybody else I know, not because they don't have a good idea. On occasion we say, okay, well that's been done before, whatever. But for the most part it's like, okay, even though you might have 60,000 words done, You're not ready to write a book because A, B, C, and D, right? You don't have the backend done. You don't have the business done. You don't have all that other stuff, right? So it's like, you think about opening a retail store with one item, like you just don't do that. Like, it just, like, that would be irrational. So if you think about it as sort of a launch, that doesn't make sense. Now, when they do come to us, earlier is better because then we could, we could sort of mold and shape a little bit, not necessarily from an IP perspective, but from a strategy and implementation perspective. The most stressful situations when a client comes and says, oh, I've got a book coming out in 2 months, what can you do? And there are things that we can do, but it's, it's limited or more limited than it would be if, you know, we were involved 6 months, a year, 2, 3 years before the book was even a real thing.

Huh. Interesting. Interesting. Are you, are you primarily like in a consulting role or do you have agency services as well where like you're helping people? Actually execute on the, the tools and resources, like the assessments, the certifications, the channels? Like, what parts do you play in that?

Our business model is, number one, we always start with strategy. That's the first thing that we do for all of our clients is develop a strategy. Why? In the absence of a strategy, there's no way to get to clarity. How do you prioritize? What are the KPIs? Right? So that's step one. After that, we will do pretty much everything except things that we're not good at, then we'll bring folks in. But, you know, from an implementation execution standpoint. And so I look at it as strategy, then there's typically some developmental work that needs to be done. Then we put a lot of energy into the go-to-market and the sales, marketing, and business development. And if you think about it holistically, thought leaders are good at the following, right? Researching, presenting, you know, make a list of all the things that a typical thought leader's really good at. And then make a list of what a great B2B business development person, go-to-market salesperson are, there's not a lot in common on those two lists. And quite frankly, thought leaders didn't jump into the pool to be marketers and salespeople and negotiating contracts and licensing deals. So we take that load off of them and, and serve in that capacity over the long run with a subset of our clients.

Wow. That's amazing. So my guess is you probably work with clients for, quite some time then, because I mean, this is, this is a process that takes, that takes—

Yeah. I, you know, there's, there's a couple different paths that clients take. Some come to us just for the strategy. They'll typically come back later on when they try to do it on their own and need some help. But usually it's the strategy, then the development, and then the go-to-market, right?

What is one of the biggest things that thought leaders are missing? Like in this equation that like when they, when they work with you, they're like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, that's easy.

They're missing— I didn't even think about that.

Like, so grateful.

Yeah. They're missing a strategy and they're missing a business model and they're missing a real understanding of what the buyers want and need and the risk profile of the buyers. Right. So they tend to, I don't wanna say the opposite, operate in a bubble, but they're so focused on solving the problems that their work solves and doing the research and communicating those ideas, et cetera. They don't think about the, you know, so they're on the sell side, if you will, they're not thinking on the buy side, wait, I'm a mid-level L&D person at a Fortune 1000. My job requires me to train 3,000 people to develop a capability to get a business outcome. They don't always get that. And if you can't connect those two things, you're making it really, really difficult for a buyer to do their job, for a training and development person, for a leadership development person to say, the reason I'm purchasing these services, boss, is that this is the outcome that we're hoping to get. This is the cost that it's gonna take. And these, this is the ROI on that, on that initiative.

Yeah. So would you say, is, is that kind of like equivalent to like, like people being, they're just, they're, they're so focused on their product. Like they almost like are a little bit too disconnected from like the actual end user of the product in terms of like what their actual needs are and, and what they're, what they're, what the buyer is trying to solve. Yeah.

With the exception that I would say not necessarily the product, but the, the work, right? So sometimes what happens is they've already made a decision and some choices around this is how I'm going to productize my IP, my work, right? I'm going to create a whatever, right? But they've done that without talking to the market. And it's really cheap to be stupid early, right? If you come up with a hypothesis of what people might do with your stuff, and then go talk to the market and say, hey, I think I'm gonna build this video-based platform that does A, B, C, and D. What do you think of that? And the market tells you, Peter, that's really stupid. You should say thank you. Right? It's more expensive to operate in isolation and build that whole thing out, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then go to market, you know, and hear crickets. That risk profile scares me. Yet I see people do that over and over and over again because it's what they think one should do? Yeah, that's a good question. I think that, you know, my client base are really, really, really smart. Asterisk, right? Really, really smart in the domains that they're acknowledged experts in. Literally, they might be world-class Nobel Prize winners, you know, top of their game, working at the most amazing academic institutions or consulting firms or whatever. So they're smart, but you could be smart and you could be ignorant or naive at the same time, right? Some of the smartest people in the world you know, ask 'em to change the oil in your car and, and they'd be like, all of a sudden they look like a dope compared to the mechanic at Jiffy Lube that could do that in their sleep. Right? So I think smart is contextual. So I think having an understanding that just because I'm really good here doesn't necessarily mean that every idea that I have is amazing. That's arrogance. That's, that's—

I love that. So have you, have you needed to become like a thought leader yourself in order to understand this process or to attract your ideal clients? Like, like what's, what's been your own thought leadership journey?

Yeah, I love that question. So a couple of years ago I would've said no. We, my firm, myself, we're the guys and gals behind the guys and gals, right? Our job is to develop the strategy, execute the strategy, and get them to their objectives, which is to increase the impact they have, the income they've got, et cetera. That started to change a couple of years ago where the market started coming to us. So we put out a lot of stuff like, you know, I've got a podcast, 700 episodes. Tons of videos, interviews like this that I've done hundreds of times, whatever, but I've never positioned myself as a thought leader. I'm doing it to elevate the brand and, and get the word out there and that kind of thing. But we've had a bunch of organizations, including LinkedIn, uh, LinkedIn Learning come to us and say, hey, what do you think about doing something like this? So we started to do more and more of that. Fast forward to where we are now, we actually have a book coming out in Q1 called The Thought Leadership Handbook, which people that know me know that I have pretty much, I, I never swore definitively, but I said the odds of me writing a book are really, really, really, really low. That being said, it happened. So that will be out in Q1.

That's awesome. That's so exciting. Okay. We're gonna have to, I don't know if you have any, if you have any links for that yet, but we'll have to, we'll have to add those as well. So I'm curious, like since, since you never thought that you would write a book, and I totally get that, like we're the guys and gals behind the guys and gals, like what did you learn from actually going through that process that's like made your business even smarter?

Yeah. So first of all, I didn't do it alone. So the book is being written by myself, primarily Bill Sherman, my chief operating officer, and Naren Ariel, who's our publisher and co-writer at Amplify, right? So, you know, it took a village, if you will. So, you know, what did I learn? I learned a lot. I learned that now I kind of understand why that writing a book and renovating a home are similar in that they never get done on time or on budget. It just takes a long time. I learned it's hard to make it simple. Because this is a handbook. So this was designed to take two things that we have as assets, our intellectual property. One is a whole bunch of models, methods, frameworks, tools, et cetera, that we've developed on-site with clients to use in the real world. Not theoretical, not abstract, you know, academic research kind of thing. And take a subset of those and make them approachable and easy to use to the reader. Second thing that we did is, because I'm always looking at what are the assets I have and how can they give me dividends, is we have a podcast, 700 episodes. Every one, we have a transcript. Right? So we started to play about a year ago with ChatGPT and Claude and whatnot and say, oh, you know, 'cause I barely remember what I had for lunch, let alone a conversation I might've had with someone 6 years ago. It's just, you know, whatever. I can't even find my glasses half the time. ChatGPT was really, really good once Bill did the heavy lifting of working with it and training with it and say, give me a story of, and we have client avatars, right? A thought leader on the run that did A, B, and C. And it would spit out 5 examples. I'm like, oh my God, those are awesome. So in the book, there are, I think, 50 or 60 little anecdotes of actual people, thought leaders. Many of them are clients, many of them not, and sort of forensically validating our theories and models and methodologies. So you don't have to believe me as the consultant, right? Hey, here's what so-and-so said and so-and-so said and so-and-so said under the different rubrics of, and, and frameworks that we're bringing to the marketplace. So that was really, really cool. It was a really cool learning curve. And I think, you know, sort of my big takeaway from that is most thought leaders have so much stuff and how do you organize it and extract the value from it other than hiring, you know, like an army of researchers or interns or whatever, which takes a ton of time and money. I just wanna make one comment on the AI piece. So, and I think this is really important. Just because a tool exists doesn't mean you should be using it. So we were really clear. That AI is not writing this book, full stop. AI served the role of a research team to get things to us that we just couldn't do on our own. And then we made the decisions and the choices of how to put those together and how to tell the story. And in many cases, we went back to someone that said, hey, remember that podcast we did 7 years ago? You said A, B, and C. That was kind of really cool. Can we expand on that a little bit? Because that was done in the context of a 20-minute podcast. Here's what we're looking to do today. So it, it wasn't, you know, I think where AI gets a bad rap is if you could tell something was done with AI, like cut and paste, that's a bad use of AI.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. And I love that you, it's, you even labeled it as like, it's the research team, right? And, and I think it's a powerful, powerful resource for that as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So we're like, we're, we're in, we're in, we're in Q4 heading into the new year. What, what's a big focus for you guys in 2026? What's, uh, what are some of the big initiatives you guys are working on? I mean, you've got, you've got your book coming out in Q1, like what else?

Yeah. So I would say two things. I would say we're gonna do more of what we always do, which is work with great clients from all around the world and develop and implement those strategies. That's not gonna change. And then, you know, probably the, the launching of the book and continuing to go down the path of scaling and leveraging and licensing and all that are our thought leadership because there is a market for that. It's a, it's a fairly limited market. Um, but I think we have some competitive advantages in that space in terms of the brand and such. So that's, So, um, that's what '26 looks like for us.

I love that. So exciting. And how, like, you, you brought up AI a little bit. Like, is AI, how is AI impacting or transforming the work that you do with clients in terms of using it as a tool?

Oh, it's amazing. So, so there are good use cases, bad use cases, and crazy use cases. So I think like any tool, if I were to pick up a hammer and someone would say to me, what are you gonna do with that? And say, I'm gonna stick it in a can of paint and then put the paint on the wall. Somebody would probably say, that's probably not the best tool for that. They invented a thing called the paintbrush. And I'd say, oh, what does that do? It's like, oh, okay. And then it would be pretty obvious to me why a hammer's a bad way to apply paint to a wall, right? So I think you need to figure out what you're using the tool for. Part of it is obviously the research side, organizing side, um, uh, a thought, you know, a sparring partner intellectually. Hey, here's this story that I typically tell in the C-suite. How do I make that approachable to a call center or whatever the case may be? But I think the other piece, And this is where it's sort of the Wild West of AI, is there's a whole bunch of promises being made that, oh, I could take my body of work as a thought leader and create the Peter Chat thing and license that out. Maybe you could, but I go back to just because you can doesn't mean you should. Is there a market for that? What is the market for that? What's your competitive advantage for the market for that? How are you gonna price that? How are you gonna sell that? Do you, do you, do you know for sure that your clients want that?, right? Do they just want your voice? Would they prefer to have 50 thought leaders in one product? So there's, I don't even know, dozens and dozens and dozens of AI derivatives specific to the thought leadership market that are out there today. My, I don't have a crystal ball, but I think in the next year or two, the dust will settle and there'll be some obvious winners and obvious things that, that, uh, came to market that won't bear fruit.

Mm. I love that. I, I totally agree. Totally agree.

Yeah.

It, like, it, it is the Wild West and the opportunities with GenAI are huge, like I think I love how your mind works in terms of like, what is the actual like implications and business strategy that's going to support these tools?

Yeah, I think as a follow-up to the question—

And what are some of the—

I'm sorry, I was gonna say, I think as a follow-up to the question you have to ask yourself, go ahead. Hey, this could be really cool. Can AI do that? So I have a client friend right now who just finished writing a book, and what he did is he created his own sort of personal board of advisors. So it's almost like the, you know, the ultimate question of if you can have dinner with 5 people living or dead, what would they be? What would it be? You can kind of do that with AI, right? So, you know, his board of advisors was like, you know, Tom Peters and, and Ken Blanchard and all that. How would they think about the problem he's working on? And what he did is sort of show his work, right? And what he did, how he used that as an input, not an output to make his new book better. And I think that's the kind of cool stuff, you know, is it a find these things thing or a go-to-market thing?

So, yeah, that's so neat. I love it. I love it. So what are, and what are some of the things that are, that are like the questions about your company that are either, either roadblocks or things that are keeping you up at night or, or things that you're trying to solve. Like what are some of the hurdles that you're trying to jump over right now?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think, I think some of the hurdles are there's so many things that can be done very inexpensively. You know, you can create video inexpensively. You could, you know, sit and have a 10-minute conversation with ChatGPT or Claude and say, create a strategy, but But, you know, would you bet the house on those outcomes that aren't proven, right? So I think that I don't see that as a risk because we've already started to see clients come back to us or potential clients that didn't engage with us come back 6 minutes later and said, you know what, we need to suck it up and pony up and work with you because we're trying to do this as a DIY and it just doesn't make sense, right? There's lots of things that I can learn theoretically, like we've, you and I both, anybody has access to more information and knowledge than we've ever had before in the history of the human race. Now, does that mean that I wanna learn how to, you know, be a roofer or do a root canal? Or like, there's a whole list of things that I probably could learn how to do. Should I, and would I be any good at it? And would I hire me to do that? And I think that's really the question you have to ask yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's such, such good questions. I love that. Okay. So like, since you're, since you're, I love how you, you in the very beginning put yourself, put the label on yourself of a lifelong learner slash nerd. Right. What are some of the things that you are personally working on or learning right now? Even, even if it's outside of the business, like, are you a big reader? Are you reading something right now? Are you in like a course or a mastermind? Like, what's your learning life like at the moment?

Yeah, that's, that's a great, I mean, I'm always, you know, I'm knocking out at least 2 books a week, so I'm always reading. So that's one thing, you know, things that are more comical is—

What are you reading right now?

What am I reading right now? I've gotta find my Kindle, but the, the next one on deck is actually, I just got it delivered yesterday from Claude, Claude Silver's new book, Be Yourself at Work. So she's the chief heart officer at VaynerMedia, Gary Vee's company. So she's been a friend for a long time. Excited to see her book come out.

Yeah.

'Cause we had a conversation around it 6, 7 years ago. Other things are, are, are, and I think it's mandatory when you get to be my age, you have to take a shot at pickleball, pull a hamstring, and then do it again. A golf game that's pathetic. And then, you know, learning, my, my, probably the big learning immersion, if you will, for this quarter is I will be going in, I don't know what, early November to London for the Thinkers50 event. So that's like one of my favorite events because it's kind of like the Oscar Awards of thought leaders. So I'll be dusting off the tuxedo and traveling to the UK in a couple of weeks for that. So that's fun.

Well, that's super fun. Like, and who are some of the people that attend that event typically?

Oh, there's hundreds. I mean, you've, you'll have Keith Frazee, Amy Edmondson, Rita McGrath, Dan Pontefract. I mean, it just, it's a who's who of amazing thought leaders there in the flesh. So it's like some of the conversations are just like awe, you know, it's like kind of like living in a TED Talk for 3 days. It's a little bit overwhelming, but it's just, it's one of my favorite things to do.

That's so cool. I've actually, I've never heard of that, so I'm gonna have to do some research on that. The Thinkers50.

Yep.

I love it. Okay. And you're pickleball. I love it. Pickleball's huge in, huge in Utah. Is it? It, and it's, I feel like it, it's a little bit slower on the uptake in the Northeast, but is it getting pretty big up there in New York?

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, I mean, I think because of weather and stuff, it may be less here than, you know, Florida or something, but yeah, it's huge here. Each and every one of my friends has sustained an injury or two from it. So whatever.

Have, have you really pulled a hamstring?

Yeah, I, I think I tore. Yeah, that was earlier in the summer. That was not fun. That was not fun.

Yeah, no, I've, I've torn a hamstring before and it's, it's the worst. It is a tough, tough recovery. So yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball is like, it's, it's so fun, but like, it's no joke, man. You gotta, you gotta make sure you're loose. That's for sure.

Exactly. Exactly.

That's so fun. That's so fun. Well, Peter, it has been seriously such a blast having you on the Marketing Matrix today. So fun to hear your, your wisdom and your methodology and to give you an opportunity to share more about like the amazing work that you're doing with, like you said, people that have like an amazing skillset in their field, but in terms of like the business structure and strategy that supports it, they just need help with that. And so I really appreciate you coming on and, and sharing that and sharing more about you on the podcast today.

Thanks for having me.

So for people that want to find your business and get in touch with you for their own thought leadership or follow you on social media, how, or find your book in Q1, how, how do people get in touch with you?

Yeah, so two things I would say. You can go to the website thoughtleadershipleverage.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, my email and all that's on LinkedIn. We're on YouTube, we're on X. I mean, all the typical places you'd expect on social. But I would say the website is a great place, the podcast, and we have a pretty strong presence on LinkedIn.

Okay, guys, I'm going to put the links to his socials and the website in the episode notes so you can link out to those directly. But again, Peter, thank you so much for giving so much awesomeness to us on The Marketing Matrix today.

Thank you for allowing me to give away some awesomeness.

I love it. Okay guys, wherever you are, thank you so much for listening to The Marketing Matrix. We know that your time is valuable, so for you to be able to choose to spend time with us, it means the absolute world, and we're excited to have you back again for the next episode on The Marketing Matrix.