A Chat With a Long-Time Follower About His Stressful Marriage and Imminent Divorce

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. All right, folks, uh, if you are followers of the Dear DSO, I guess you could say, series where I take questions, emails from folks. They send them in via the website. The website, by the way, is deardso.com. That's deardso.com. You can submit a story, or on the form where you fill it out, you can check a little box to say that I would like to talk to Ralph live and talk about the problem, issue, what story, whatever it may be, back and forth live. And I say live, this is recorded, but This is one of those such instances, or one of those entries rather, but this one's a little interesting for you folks that are followers, I guess you could say, of the Dear DSO. You may have heard a name come up more than a few times. A gentleman by the name of Wordsmith has come up quite a bit in my live streams as a, I guess you could say, attendee of live streams, adding some comments here and there, as well as he has submitted Oh, I don't know, Wordsmith, how many, like 3 or 4 different questions to the Dear DSO website page, if you will. And I've answered them and they've become very popular. I don't know if you've seen Wordsmith that, um, you know, I just let the cat out of the bag here. Wordsmith is live with me here today. You can't see him, but he is on audio. Say hello, Wordsmith.

Hey, how's it going? Hey.

But Wordsmith is kind enough to join us for a live chat here today, and we're going to talk about all things wordsmith, what brought him to my world, Dad Starting Over, now Help for Men. You can learn more at helpformen.com, by the way. And, uh, I guess we'll get into it because this may be a pretty interesting story from what I— what you've shared over— is how long you've been writing in and how long you've been, uh, I guess been a fan of and a follower of the Dad Starting Over thing. Has it been over a year now? 2 years?

Um, yes, probably been more like 2 to 3 years.

Yeah, wow, okay. So over the years we can officially say you've been submitting some stuff here. Um, so where to begin is the question. And, uh, how— you are currently married, right?

Um, I'm divorcing.

You are divorcing. Well, we're kind of putting the cart before the horse here. Let's— before we get into that, because that's technically— yes, that's the main reveal here, is that yes, for those that have been following this saga, the marriage is coming to an end, unfortunately. But how did you and the wife meet?

We met through, let's see, kind of a mutual friend. Basically a girl I had a casual thing with. A friend of hers was my wife's roommate, and I guess she put in a word and they set us up on a date, basically. That's how that went.

So you were having a casual, and by that you mean sexual relationship with a gal, nothing serious. And that gal had a friend and you got to know that friend better.

Uh, this is the friend of her friend.

Friend of a friend kind of thing.

Yeah. So the friend with benefits, her best friend was my wife's roommate. So, okay, gotcha.

Friend of a friend thing. And so you met her at some gathering or something, you got to know each other and, uh, make a long story short, what is it about her, this friend of a friend of a friend thing, what is it about her that made her your eventual wife?

Um, well, I've been dating casually for a while. I was really not, you know, looking for anything serious at the time. Um, enjoyed just, you know, my free time. And, you know, I don't know if you'd say I was a player or whatever, but I was a guy that just didn't get attached, you know, or hadn't been for a while to anyone. Um, I don't think I've had a relationship longer than 4 to 6 months with the same girl. Um, but with her, just something was different. It just felt, you know, like she's the first one I really liked on a another level, you know. So it's just a little bit different.

Your audio is, is a little choppy there. Oops, I hit my microphone. You're just cutting it out a little bit there. So, so if I understand you there, so you had like a series of casual relationships with gals, and this one was different in the fact that you had a good emotional, mental, intellectual connection with her. She was a genuine good person.

Yeah, and that happened really quickly, which I'd never really experienced before. And I was getting kind of burnt out from just, you know, dating and, you know, you know, going out, meeting various women and so forth. It does get tiring after a while. And I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna stick with this one for a bit and see what happens.

Which— would you consider her to be kind of a low drama person compared to all the rest?

Seemed to be at the time.

Yeah, yeah, very low. I mean, this is, you know, if you've watched my stuff, this is something I hear quite often is A lot of guys will tell me, I was with crazy after crazy after crazy, their words, not mine. And then they meet the gal who was like, oh, thank God. And a common phrase that I hear from a lot of those men, tell me if this is similar, is a lot of those men will say, she's kind of like one of the guys. She's so down to earth.

Yeah, in a lot of ways we just clicked on that level. Talked to her, we had a few interests. We had a lot of differences, we still had a few things that brought us together. Um, just felt, you know, like, okay, I just want to chill with her for a bit because, yeah, I've been down the crazy gauntlet with all these other, you know, a lot of them call them borderline personality girls or ones who suddenly just go psycho and start to see the red flags. Eventually start to see the patterns and start to say, oh, okay, I'm out, you know, quickly. But, you know, you have to go through a couple of them to get to that, to that awareness, you know. And she didn't really seem to display any of those red flags.

So did she come from a good family?

Yeah.

And her mom and dad are still together?

Yeah, they've been together for 30 years, I think. Really good, well-to-do family, uh, professionals, you know.

Would you say they're a loving couple?

They seem to be. Um, she's from— her family's from Europe, so culturally it's a little bit different, um, which might explain some of the things that I have problems with later on in the relationship, but Uh, so they seem to be very loving and happy together.

Where did you say they're from? You cut out a little bit there.

Uh, they're from Europe, from a European country.

From a European country. Okay, so we'll leave it at that just to keep it as vague as possible. Well, if you don't know, my mother's from Europe as well, and my wife is from Europe as well, so I'm well aware of that. But it— what's, um, so you kind of maybe are seeing some things that are a little eyebrow-raising as far as it's different from what you're used to, but you kind of chalk it up to, well, there's a difference in culture there, maybe it's a little— but, but in hindsight after knowing this woman for— I mean, how long you been married now?

Uh, see, married for 13 years, together about 14.

Okay.

And, uh, also since her family is from Europe, I only see them maybe once or twice a year, so I haven't had a whole lot of time to really observe their relationship dynamics, you know.

Yeah, you don't see them day to day and what they're like, you know, day in and day out living together and so forth. Okay, so, and, and she is, uh, is she kind of a Type A high achiever type person? Yes. And would you say that you are as well or no?

Um, I used to be. I used to be, uh, yeah, I was very, uh, driven into like my dreams and goals as far as like my writing and my music. Um, there's things I really want to achieve early on. Like when we got together, I was really into those things. I just finished my first novel I'd written, uh, new band and so forth. So I had things I was really into at that time.

So you've mentioned writing, you've mentioned music, so all that points to you're a bit of a creative person.

Yeah.

And she is not? She's more of a studious, Type A type?

Yeah, yeah, she's very much more practical, down to earth, you know. Uh, you know, did the college track, got a degree, went for a career, that sort of thing, you know.

Yeah, that's, that's also a common dynamic, is usually— and this isn't unusual in the men I talk to— where the man is the dreamer, so to speak, kind of has the, you know, he's in bands and he's doing this and doing that. And one day, hopefully, fingers crossed, everything will click for him and he'll have a genuine career from his creative endeavors. But he's not the type, he's not the type to sit at a desk all day long. While the wife is the more structured one, the more, I went to college, I'm a lawyer now, I'm a doctor, I'm a whatever. And, uh, it could be, you know, it could be inferred that that's somewhat my relationship with my wife now, is that she is a surgeon. She's a pediatric surgeon, so she's very well paid, highly trained, My wife was the type that she had a lull there where she started a new job as an attending. This was years ago in Maine. And then when she started that, she's like, kind of a lull, not much to do work-wise, not a lot of patients. So in the downtime, I'm just going to go ahead and get my MBA as well. So, so she's a medical doctor, all this training, went through all this residency, fellowship, and oh yeah, might as well just get my MBA as well. So now she has an MBA. That's my wife. That's not necessarily me. If somebody said, you want to go back to school? I'm like, oh, hell no. I don't want to go back to school. I'm just not wired that way. Much more of the entrepreneurial type, for sure. Creative type. You can see behind me guitars, and I like that world as well. And writing too. So we have something in common. Thankfully, I found something in my life that allows— I used to be a corporate dude as well. Hated every bit, every minute of it. Got out of that, did the entrepreneurial thing, failed, back to working for a company. And now this, the DadStartingOverNow, HelpForMen.com thing. And thankfully I got some success at it and I wrote something that was popular, which allowed me to branch out and do a lot of other different things. But knock on wood, that continues and doing well so far. But that's not the case for a lot of creative types, is it? Usually they're struggling. Frankly, you know, if you're, you know, the stereotype of the starving actor out in Hollywood.

Yeah, I mean, there's a stereotype. I mean, I did the— I worked in sales for 8 to 9 years, took the day job, especially when I first got married. I've been doing that for a few years and continued to do it for several years and hated it. Of course, it's miserable all day, every day. So, uh, you know, I definitely hear what you're saying there about people corporate thing.

I was just gonna say, sales, and I was like, really? That doesn't really go well with the whole creative mindset. And you're like, yeah, I hated it. Yeah. That's, you just happened to pick something that you're just not wired for.

I was good at it. The money was good, but I'm still miserable sitting at a desk all day.

Yeah. I, same. I'm not of that world either. You know, here's the thing. It's interesting with sales and you hate to say this because some of the best people I've known are good salespeople. But they tend not to be the most introspective, creative, deep individuals, are they? The really, really good salespeople. They're pretty simple, straightforward, ask for the sale, yes, no, move on to the next guy type of people. And they tend, they take rejection very well. It's like it's no big deal to them. More sensitive types, more creative types sometimes lend itself to the more neurodivergent types, ADHD and otherwise. And I don't know if that's you.

And I don't know if I have ADHD, but I'm extremely neurotic. I'm like Woody Allen, like Woody Allen level neurotic, you know? I'm not as verbal as he is because he's funny in the movies, but yeah, my mind's been like that all the time, you know, the anxiety, all that stuff. You ask me.

Yeah. So over the years you've known that about yourself, or is that something that's gotten worse with age?

Gotten worse, uh, with, you know, past several years of life and so forth. But yeah, I've always been that way.

So yeah, and that's big of you to recognize that in yourself. A lot of people, especially men, don't like to say, "I'm a neurotic guy." And for those that don't know, technically neuroticism is a personality trait, and it's one of the 5. And to oversimplify it, and maybe this isn't necessarily fair, but the definition I often give to it is kind of a propensity for negative thought patterns in a person. So yeah, if you're a type that's high in anxiety, prone to depression, ruminating often about things and stuff, and you have to take a glass of wine every night to calm the eff down, and you smoke pot just to be able to function day to day, you're probably a high— to use the clinical terms, you probably rank high in trait neuroticism. Or as Wordsmith here says, I'm kind of a neurotic dude. And I probably not to your degree, but anxiety is something that I've dealt with my most up until young adulthood, and then something kind of clicked in me and I started doing a lot better in that regard. But, um, that's something I struggled with quite a bit as a teenager into young adulthood, was extreme levels of anxiety, and it didn't do well. And as you know, Wordsmith, it doesn't bode well for men especially. Um, it doesn't bode well for men that want to be in romantic relationships long-term with somebody, because that typically doesn't go over well with the ladies in our life, does it?

Yeah, I mean, that's a big factor in the one going through right now. It really is.

Yeah. So, and again, that's also big of you to say, it's like, yeah, my anxieties, my neuroticism contributed to the downfall of the relationship. Is that something that has been at the forefront, something that has been talked about, mentioned, your anxieties, your issues with stress, for lack of a better word? Is it something the wife has mentioned as being, I don't like this, we need to work on this? Is that something you have been very overtly working on, or Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I've tried therapy, I've done, you know, I've tried medicines, I've tried all this stuff, never really worked very well for me. So I've tried a lot of things over the years to try to get over that and to cope with it. And it's, uh, with all the stress that has come into life recently, um, the past few years, it's gotten much worse and harder to manage, which is, of course, uh, affects, affects the relationship.

Yeah, it's one of those which came first, the chicken or the egg. It sounds like you've always been kind of an anxious guy. Even pre-wife, right? Oh yeah. And so, but it doesn't help to be in a relationship which we'll get to here in a minute, evolves into something that's not the most loving relationship in the world. And you've also been a stay-at-home father and all kinds of things that really builds on that anxiety, doesn't it?

Yeah, it definitely does.

So let's get into it. So you get married. We're skipping, we're skipping a lot here. Is—

do you move across country, or, um, well, you got married, um, and then we stayed where we were for a few years. Everything was fine. Um, let's see, a few— 3 years after we got married, my mother passed away. Oh, and really, I was really close to my mom, and I think it's a kind of a really deep depression. And so that's kind of where things really kind of go a little off for us, I think. Um, So I struggled with some issues with that for a while. And then there were more job opportunities for her out here. And we'd always dream, we'd always talk about moving to a better climate because we got tired of winter and all the cold and all that stuff. So we decided to move out to this area and start over. And I quit my job and moved out here and I started doing freelance writing and stuff and actually making some money on the side. And I was able to do that full time once we got out here. And she was making really good money with her job as well.

And is the writing something that you have pursued at least on a part-time basis throughout, or no?

Off and on. We got the kids full-time. That's why I kind of put a hold on that. I just didn't really have as much time to do it.

Now you've said kids, plural. How many kids do you have?

4.

4 kiddos. Oof. And when did you start having children? Or what was the— because I, I think I know how the kids came about, but you tell us, like, when did you start having children? Or how did that work?

Well, we, um, we decided to adopt. And, uh, first we adopted some children, then we became foster parents to some of the children, and eventually adopted those children as well. So it kind of happened very quickly. We became parents to several children.

What made you go down the road of adoption, if I may ask?

Um, we were not able to conceive.

Is that, uh, again, I'm prying, I'm getting into personal things here, but was that, was that an issue of physical issues on her part, your part, both, or a little bit both? I think both of you had issues with the fertility. Okay, interesting. Yeah, but who was the driver? Was it, were you both equally on, on yay team parent mode, like you were going to do this regardless? Or was she more of the driver?

She was more of the driver. I was okay. Basically, I was kind of neutral whether we ever had kids or not. Uh, I didn't— it wasn't like a mission of mine to have kids. And whatever happened, okay, fine, that's what we want. You tell she was really wanting it as she got to a certain age, around 30 or so, and that she was unhappy not to pursue that. So I agreed to do that, you know, for her mostly. And, uh, this is kind of where it went. She was really the one who wanted to do that. And so I said, okay, fine, this is the time, then why would we do that now?

Yeah, again, something I hear a lot from men is kind of like, yeah, that's fine, you know. It— to bring other human beings into the world, uh, it's not necessarily the best, uh, to bring them into the world with, with, with the, uh, attitude or atmosphere of, if that's what you want to do, cool. Yeah, you would hope that both are like, yeah, let's Freaking do this, you know, but I'm not kicking you because that was kind of my theme. I have 4 of them as well. And I would say, if I'm being completely honest, I love my children. I would murder for my kids. I love them more than anything. I'm so glad I have my kiddos. They put a smile on my face every day. But at the beginning, with both spouses, you know, when they came to me and say, wanna have kids? I was just like, sure. And if they would have said, I'm— I don't want to ever have children ever, I've probably been like, all right, cool. Um, I was an only child. I don't know about you. Do you have siblings?

Uh, yeah, I'm the youngest of 3.

You're the youngest of 3? Okay. Well, I was an only child, so I didn't have the benefit of, you know, growing up with a sibling. I always wanted an older, uh, brother, and my parents always laughed when I said that. They're like, well, we can't do anything about that, right? I could have adopted, I guess, but, um So you adopt a couple and then decided to foster. Something I've also heard talking to a lot of, of, um, oh, guys that they themselves were adopted, or they and their spouse, like you and your spouse adopted. Was that pretty, um, at times tumultuous, stressful experience? Would you say the same?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I am also adopted.

You are?

Okay.

Oh, so I didn't know that.

Okay. So I've been familiar with the whole experience a bit. I was adopted when I was like 4. So I was pretty young. Um, yeah, I mean, it was—

You cut out there for a second. How old were you?

I was, uh, 4. 4 years old. Okay. Adopted. So yeah, it was, um, pretty stressful, uh, when we finally got the kids and settled into that routine. Um, because adopting from foster care, kids have had trauma and things from early life and childhood, which is why they're in the system to begin with. So it, you know, it suddenly stressful enough to suddenly become parents, uh, to think through kids who are not babies, you know, and then to, uh, suddenly like, oh, they have these other issues and things that are affecting the whole dynamic as well. And it's kind of a whirlwind you get sucked into. And when you're already a very neurotic, anxious new guy, you're suddenly like, okay, and you're like, it's just overwhelming. To say the least, man. And took a while to get to the groove of it.

Now, so we're building like, you know, I try to picture two people, the husband and wife, and it's very easy to build a wall between the two of them when it romantically— and you're building bricks of this wall as we speak. And one is like, husband has some issues with anxieties, neuroticism, whatever it may be, stress. That's going to get in the way of two people connecting. And then we have Maybe it could be argued the wife's Type A, kind of career-oriented, whatever. It can be a block between two people is if it's— if it takes too much of their time and energy and so forth, then it gets in the way of connecting. And then it's like, hey, you know what we need to do on top of those two things is let's bring some adopted kids who have— is it fair to say special needs?

Yeah.

Okay. And the special needs comes in the form of—

are we talking like autism or Yeah, I mean, a couple of them are autistic. Um, let's see, some of them have PTSD and ADHD, all that stuff.

Wow, two autistic kids, PTSD. So you really, from an outside observer— and this doesn't mean to kick a person while they're down— it's almost as if seeing somebody who is purposely building this wall between— or really, or it could be argued, really testing the strength of the relationship. By throwing all this on top, you know, throwing the wall metaphor aside, maybe putting weight on your shoulders is a better metaphor. It's like, so you're just really weighing yourself down again and again and really seeing how much you can, how strong you are and how much you carry, you two as a couple. And from what I've seen, people only have so much of a limit, my man. I mean, with your anxieties and everything else. Even if you were a very low neuroticism, low anxiety person who was very mentally strong, for lack of a better word, even that person would be stressed to the gills by taking on 4 special needs kids.

Yeah.

On top of that, you may have said it already, I don't remember, stay-at-home father.

Yeah. When we took on the, finally got 4 kids in the house, I stopped writing it to just do the stay-at-home dad thing.

Full-time. So you set aside your writing because who has time for that when you're trying to take care of 4 kiddos?

Yeah, because they have special needs and have appointments and therapies and, you know, all the stuff, and it's always have to be available. So it was just, you know, made more sense. Uh, my wife had gotten an even better job and pay increase and so forth, so she was doing it really well. So it just made sense for me to put that on hold for the time being to focus on the kids who are really small, you know.

So So you were uber involved in the children's lives? Yeah. You yourself personally? Was your wife very much involved?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, like extremely. Um, she like, she like, you know, wanted to like— because she's half Asian, she has to control everything. So she wanted to control everything about the kids as far as like setting up all the appointments. She was in charge of a lot of stuff. I was involved as well. I was taking them to places. I was there for them to you know, when she was working and so forth and do all the basic things for them. And, uh, as far as like setting up therapies and being in charge of all the different meetings and things, my wife handled a lot of that because she wanted to. Um, and then I would kind of come in sort of as, you know, to pick up some slack from her. Um, so yeah, I mean, she's definitely been very much like, you know, that's typical in a lot of things she does in her life, the captain of things, the manager. Yeah, right. And with this particular thing, I was happy I could do that since, you know, she was from the get-go more invested in wanting to do this. So, okay.

So she, in hindsight, was very much the driver in your mind of let's take these special needs kids on, let's, let's help shape their lives. And here, let me manage everything. I'm the leader here. You're kind of the, I mean, how would you describe your role in all of this looking back?

Um, well, just a kind of a captain co-captain dynamic, I guess, maybe. Whereas, you know, I helped out anything she needed to, you know, take care of all the basic stuff, wake up the kids in the morning, wake them up for school, get them off to school, take them to therapies, you know, do things with them at school with their homework and everything. Just do all the basic day-to-day stuff. And then as far as like managing the therapies and getting services for them, or because it's so hard to do that, to get proper services, it's taking years to finally get some good system.

Place. Yeah, I'm sure.

Kind of tells you how bad the, you know, the lack of help is out there.

So while she's— I don't know if this is fair or not to say— while she's at the 30,000-foot level, or that's not fair because she's more, more involved than that. So she's kind of captaining and directing and telling people where to go, but you're very much the get-er-done guy.

Oh yeah, yeah, basically pick up the slack on all the things to make sure the machine keeps going as much as I could.

Okay. And how do you feel in hindsight? How do you feel about that role? Are you, were you happy with your work? You're like, I'm cut out for this. This is for me. I'm glad I did this. Or is this something you resent?

Uh, it's not something I resent because I love the kids and everything. But I do, I did not enjoy a lot of those stress and the work and the stuff that went along with it. It took a toll on me, like mentally a lot. And she could see that too. She could see that because, I mean, I could— I would pull away a little bit from her, I guess, or, you know, need some time for myself here and there and not be as enthusiastic about, you know, like going out to do things and do all those type of activities. As soon as I got a woman, she always has like, you know, she's ready to go to do something new and different all the time. And I'm not that guy. I wasn't before we had kids, really, you know. She was like, well, I'm bored, let's go do something. Like, we just did work and crap all week. It was just relax for a day. It's like, no, it's like, me, I'm bored by now. Let's go do something.

Yeah.

And, and then I would do it, you know, but then she'd be unsatisfied, like typical woman that, you know, seemed happy to do this, so now it's not fun for her, you know.

So she's very energetic, go-go-go, Type A person. This is my, this is my wife as well. My wife does not like to sit and relax, so we have to fill the calendar with something and But she's open to learning from me, like, no, every now and then a Sunday of nothing is perfectly okay. We don't have to, we don't have to look at, we're going to buy a plane ticket to go skiing somewhere. No, we just— a common question I will ask men, and let's just preface this by saying, you and I are talking because I don't talk to men who just have amazing, wonderful, you know, fulfilling relationships and they just want to share it with the world, right? They talk to me because things didn't go quite right. And, but there, your story is relatively unique. You have to know this, you know, with the stay-at-home father's relatively unique, although I'm hearing that more and more. Um, your, your baseline level of high anxieties, your, uh, taking on the 4 special needs kids. This is a pretty, oh wow. You know, I think anyone listening to this story would say, oh wow, it just sounds exhausting. Um, so with that being said, typically when I talk to guys, I will say, When did the wheels fall off the relationship? And probably the number one thing I hear is, oh, as soon as my wife had a baby, or as soon as baby number 2 or 3 came along. We were great up until then. That's not necessarily your story, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is to ask that question, is that fair, or is it safe to say?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, things were really good. I mean, so you hear a lot of guys saying, you know, as soon as we got married, suddenly she's like, 'Well, we don't have to have sex anymore. It's great. It's over.' But that wasn't really our case. Things got better after marriage, even. Uh, for 7, 8 years of being married, things were really good. Things were good. I mean, in that department, uh, we never had any issues as far as her saying, you know, 'excuse' or not wanting to do it. Um, things, things were fine. I mean, of course they tempered down a little bit for me from the beginning, like they do, but it was me too. So yeah, but, uh, everything seemed okay and we were pretty happy with that. At least I was. She didn't seem to have any issues. As soon as kids came into the picture though, suddenly the excuses started in, you know, just like, yeah, I'm just tired, or just, I don't want to do this, I got this, you know, just the excuses that you hear, all the same common ones. And it kind of throws you for a loop. You're like, huh, okay, this is different. Okay, but hopefully it'll resign itself after things settle down a bit. But no, it just kind of became more and more normal. That's when things really started to, you know, kind of fall apart for me.

And let's put it out there, when we talk about excuses, we mean excuses not to be physically intimate with you.

Yeah, like excuses, you know, I'm too tired, or, you know, I got to get up early, or, you know, I need, you know, I just showered, or whatever it is. Just any basic excuse. Or they're like, yeah, I don't feel like it, or, you know, just all the excuses that you hear, you and everybody watching your channel has heard a thousand times probably.

And you can pinpoint the genesis of those excuses, as you put it, reasons for not connecting with you. You can point to, those really didn't start until kid number 1, kid number 2, like when exactly?

Yeah, we adopted 2 kids, uh, okay, and, uh, because they came together, they're, they're siblings, and, um, then the other group was also siblings, so we adopted later, um, so yeah, as soon as that happened there, and I noticed, you know, right after that, you know, something that part of marriage started to go away.

So, you know, it's, um, A lot of people listening to that would jump to the conclusion of kids in particular are the thing which breaks the camel's back, so to speak, or it's the, it's the last straw in the relationship that causes it to falter. And it's like, that's not necessarily fair to the kids. What really is the culprit here is stress, a stressor of some kind. It could have been your cancer diagnosis, it could have been your job loss, your house caught on fire or something. But really, if you think about it, none of those can compare to— we're responsible for the, the well-being, the life of a new little human. In fact, two little humans. In fact, two little humans that come with a lot of baggage, let's be honest, a lot of emotional issues and so forth, special needs and so forth. It's— you could not have picked a more, um, stressful thing, for lack of a like a better word, than what you guys chose in the form of adopting two special needs children and having a very busy wife and having a guy who is high anxiety and so forth. So boy, you're really building that wall. And, um, so that's what I was saying, is it necessarily fair to say when did the wheels fall off? But you've identified no, actually. And this kind of is a testimony to your wife, your relationship more generally, even though you had this propensity for anxiety and so forth, even though, um, you weren't this hugely gainfully employed guy making all this money, even though you're the creative and she's the more logistical manager, even through all of that, you were like, we were great, everything was wonderful, if I understood from a period of 7, 8 years.

Yeah, it was mostly, it was pretty good there. Um, I mean, early on the relationship, um, sales, and I was making the points when she was. So I was kind of like the big breadwinner for a few years, and things were great then. And then my mom passed away, and I still have depression issues. And then we decided to move, and it was just, it was just kind of struck with that. There was things, it was kind of a rocky, a little bit of a rocky bump, but we were still okay though. We're still talking things, working things through. Um, so, so we bounced back from that pretty well, I thought, and things are getting better. And then we started to adopt the kids and now this new thing's happening.

So the beginning of the relationship, you were the breadwinner in terms of, you know, had to keep score who makes more money. You were the winner in that department. So do you feel that may have helped at the beginning of the relationship? Do you think if you were part-time writer guy that the relationship would have succeeded at the beginning?

Uh, yeah, I think so. I believe, you know, that definitely might have played a bit of a factor in the beginning of the relationship.

But then you had the acute stressful moment of your mother passing away and you didn't cope too well with that and it sent you into a depression, but your relationship remained. I mean, your wife had every excuse to say, this is too much, I can't deal with this, goodbye. But she didn't. She stuck around.

Right.

So that's a positive. So, you know, I'm building up some positives here on the wife's a good woman box, you know, check, check. She's stuck with you through this, stuck with you through that. You move, great. You're saying after the move, um, I want to be this. Was there ever any pressure from her to go get you a traditional desk job somewhere doing something, quit with this writing nonsense?

Um, well, when I was really in the, uh, the first of the depression thing, I did struggle to stay on top of the writing as far as like, you know, and deadlines, so forth. And, you know, I've lost a couple clients here and there just because I was just mentally, I was just, just burnout. And like, it was a struggle, you know. So I did have some issues with that, and that was a point of contention and stress. Um, but I eventually kind of pulled out of that and started doing pretty well with it consistently. Um, but I think when we had kids, um, I think she never envisioned, um, being the primary breadwinner. She I think she envisioned more of a traditional thing where I remained the breadwinner, she would stay home with the kids.

Oh, really?

And then the opposite happened, or at least she would work part-time and not be sort of responsible for that. And I think she just— I don't think she's ever been happy with that dynamic.

You think she had a lot of resentment about that arrangement?

I think so, yeah.

Well, but being such a Type A go-getter woman, you're saying you think she wanted— she assumed it would be the flip-flop Did she ever say that to you, or is that just you inferring?

She has said she would rather be the stay-at-home mom. She said that to me before. So I think she wanted to throw her Type A stuff all full 100% into being mom. She still did. She still did as much as possible. And then she still did the job thing too, which she's continued to climb the ladder and she's really successful there. Um, so she wanted to tell us both, I guess, but I think she did want the option at least to be able to do that for a while. Mm-hmm.

You know, we— I'm pausing the story at this point, you know, thinking of a timeline. Let's pause here at the timeline. I want to go back a little bit because we picked on or talked about her mom and dad and everything else, but we really didn't talk about yours. You mentioned you being adopted. I'm sure that has some impact on your future relationships, no doubt. But your mom and dad still together?

My mom passed away.

Oh, that's right. You said your mom passed away. Sorry.

Yeah, but they were together like, you know, they were up to 30-some-odd years. They were very much, you know, traditional. My dad was a strong Catholic, great Catholic family. Um, my mom was a Protestant, so they did— they were very different people, but they stayed together. I mean, they argued a lot, and there's a lot of, you know, that in the home that I heard growing up. And if you ever saw people who maybe shouldn't be together, you'd say, yeah, this people probably shouldn't be together, just too different. But they stayed together. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Dad had job, everything, and it's very traditional, conservative type of people.

So you're painting the picture of two people that were at odds with each other with the fighting, so different, you know, their religious backgrounds and so forth, but they quote-unquote made it work?

Yeah, I mean, they stayed together and, you know, until the end and everything. They loved each other. They, you know, this is what you did. Neither one of them believed in divorce or separation or anything like that.

Well, is that a dynamic that you look back on fondly and say that's what I want? Or do you look back on that and say there's a couple of people that probably shouldn't have been together?

No, I always said, you know, I always said growing up, even during my 20s, that yeah, marriage is not going to be for me. I don't want even the option of that sort of relationship happening. I don't want to get trapped in that. I don't want to get chained to one person. I enjoy playing the field and all those other things. And so when I finally did decide to marry, I'm not even sure— even now, I'm still like, is this the right thing? I really want this. I was still kind of unsure, but I was just tired of, you know, going through all these women that I just didn't even like that well. And finally found one that I really liked, and, you know, he clicked on so many levels. I'm like, you know what, fine, we'll do this. And I think this feels right. Even though it was still like, I don't know. Mm-hmm.

Your relationship, um, prior to kids, you talked about it, it was great for the 7, 8 years. Yeah. Was your relationship sexually what you would call like a hot and heavy phase during that?

Um, it was pretty decent. I mean, uh, we get through phases where, you know, I wouldn't want it as much, and, you know, she, you know, actually asked me to do it more those times. Relationship like that. Um, and early on in the relationship, she would, um, initiate often. Um, things were pretty good that way, and, you know, she never said no. Or every time I wanted to do it, she was totally up for it. We had a good time. And there was ups and downs as far as, like, you know, the as far as the frequency, but that was kind of on both of us. There was nothing that we were— seemed unhappy with, um, overall.

Okay, so back in the timeline to here you are, 4 kiddos, special needs, you're in essence unemployed but doing the, uh, if you can, the writing thing. You kind of got out of the writing thing just due to time, the logistics of life. Who has time for any of that stuff when you're running everyone's kids to different appointments and everything else? Wife is gainfully employed, thankfully. Doing all this, but the separation between you two romantically, if you want to put it that way, is, is widening. At what point does it get to be the issue where Wordsmith says, I don't like this and I'm going to start, I guess you could say, researching into this? And which is in turn how you found me and others, I assume.

Yeah, probably within like the about a year of that, um, of me realizing, okay, this doesn't seem to be getting any better. Um, she just never seems like And she even says, you basically just, as you pointed out before, you know, I just have no interest. I didn't even think about it. You know, typical, you know, very typical from the guys you speak with. I know. Um, and it's like, really? Okay. Just never even have thought about it. Or it's just, it's not something she had any priority for in her life anymore. And she seemed like—

Your audio was, uh, your audio was drifting there a bit. So you were saying she just tells you, I just, I just don't ever think about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Um, you know, just doesn't seem to be something she cared to have in her life anymore. And she didn't seem overly concerned with how I felt about it, or at least didn't see the importance of it and how it could affect our overall marriage. Like, it's a trivial thing that, you know, it's nothing to her. She's fully invested in this other, you know, this next step in her life with being super mom and career woman, all this stuff. And that's just not something, you know, that's behind her, I guess. The first one I got.

Is there a part of you that felt, uh, taken advantage of? Like, you know, being the guy that's doing all this work, that she's just like, he doesn't need that other side of the relationship, he's— even though he's taking care of everything. You know how often we hear from guys, or gals rather, like in the comments on my videos and so forth, whenever the topic of dead bedrooms and sexless marriages comes up, um, invariably you're going to have ladies on there saying, well, perhaps if the man did more around the house, perhaps if he helped out more, then the woman would less stressed, and then her sexuality has, you know, could blossom more so than what it is. And that's, that's not necessarily fair to you, is it?

No, no, it's not. Um, but, um, just I did feel a little bit taken advantage of there, or at least, at least just as if she just didn't value my needs. Like, you know, my needs are not important, or that's not a need for her and that she just accepted and it's not going to get better. Um, so I mean, she was just kind of laughing off half the time I had tried to have a talk with her. And it just became like, okay, she just doesn't care about this at all. So what do I do? I mean, I don't want to, you know, divorce and start over again. And, you know, been out in the job market for years. And, you know, we got the kids now to think about. They have special needs. I mean, I don't know if one of us could do this by themselves.

Yeah. You kind of painted yourself into a corner here, life-wise.

Yeah. I mean, it's not like they're just healthy, well-adjusted kids. There's like one or two of them or whatever. They'd be fine. But I mean, of course, you know, scars, regular kids, what's it going to do to these kids who have had so much insecurity in their life already? And I just, so I still don't see how it's really going to work that well. He seems to think it's going to be fine.

Well, we're jumping ahead in the story here. So you're getting, you're working on this, you're researching this, you're watching my videos, you're watching others, you're probably reading books and podcasts and everything else like a lot of guys do. And so, uh, Was she, during all of this, was she pretty as cold as what you're saying? Was she just like, hey buddy, that part of our life's over with, just deal with it?

She didn't say specifically, but she kind of implied it as if she said, okay, well, we can do it more, whatever. And then she would just have excuses or she would just say, well, just don't think about it. Just don't feel it. I'm older now. I'm not young. I'm like, you're freaking 33. You're not over the hill yet. So, I mean, great, you're not 22 anymore like when we got married, but you're still, you know, not menopausal or whatever. I mean, you know, this shouldn't really be happening. But she seemed to think, yeah, well, you should get yourself checked out, maybe see a doctor. So she said, yeah, I will sometime. And of course that never happens. It just wasn't enough, wasn't important to her. It was just like a non-issue.

You're making a lot of the— and I'm making air quotes here for people that will this will be on the audio on the podcast as well as on video. I'm doing air quotes when I say a mistake that you are making. It's one way of looking at it that a lot of guys do is kind of framing it in terms of, hey woman, I got needs over here, what the hell? As opposed to the end game is the same, the end result or the goal is the same, but it's a little softer, especially for the women to hear something effective. I would like to, for us to connect again. Not necessarily just the old hokey pokey in the bedroom. I could literally hire somebody to do that. I wouldn't, but I could. I don't want to do that. I want to connect with my wife and let's date, let's go back to the way we used to be more so. We— I know we can't, we can't 24/7 like we used to pre-kids, but we can shoehorn us in there somehow, which will hopefully eventually lead to activity in the bedroom. Did the conversation ever lead in that more holistically nicer way?

Not really.

No.

I never really went there. Just as I said, she was just brushing it off as being— she understood I had concerns and it was a thing for me, but it wasn't for her. And she's like, what are you freaking doing? It's basically the impression I got that it just wasn't going to be something she wanted to put a lot of effort into fixing.

Were you the type to hold hands, kiss, hug, snuggle, watch TV together, that type of thing?

Yeah, we have— we've had that, you know, just fine. We snuggle, we kiss, we hold hands, we did date nights and stuff.

I mean, oh, you did?

Okay. All that affection stuff, all that seemed fine. Uh, nothing seems to be any issues with that at all. It's just, you know, actually going upstairs to the bedroom and doing anything there, it was just, yeah, that's how to put the brakes on here, you know.

Yeah, most guys I talk to, they don't even have that side of it, the, the schmoozy, lovey side. It's like, it's that everything's just cut off as far as anything that goes away from roommate territory. The wife is very much like, no. But yours is veering into the, we're still a loving couple territory, we just can't cross the threshold into what you would call like eroticism, I guess you could say, right? Into that part of it, which is a different world completely. You know, often tell guys like Your wife will snuggle with the kids. Your wife will, you know, lay down and take a nap with the dog and pet the dog and spend time. But they don't cross, hopefully, into the world of eroticism with the wife and the pets, or the kids and the pets, so forth. So, um, it's just a different mindset. And what your wife is saying is, I can't get into that mindset. Sorry, not with you. Which begs the question, and I hate to pile on into the anxieties and so forth, and Admittedly, this is a relatively small number of people in the general population that experience infidelity, but did that ever occur to you that that may be happening on your wife's side?

Um, I haven't had any reason to suspect that, but good. But I mean, it's tough to say. I mean, never really— you never really know until you actually discover it, you know. But I don't think so. But again, okay.

I asked that not because I suspect anything based upon what you're telling me. I asked that because it always surprises me when I do say that to men, and sometimes they come back with, oh yeah, we had a moment where I caught her with another guy about, you know, 8 months ago or something. I'm like, well, what? Why didn't you lead with that, dude? That's everything. So some men kind of brush under the rug like, it's no biggie, you know. Or I caught her texting some men or something. So, but you've never had anything, anything near that, so positive, right? Good. Um, but she's a human being, and yes, a lot of women, especially post-kiddos, kind of go into a sexual dormancy. At least that's how we interpret it as men. Um, and, uh, we just don't see any inkling of any kind of sexuality out of them. And boy, it takes a lot of work to pull it out for some women, not all, right? Um, and it sounds like your wife may be one of those. It's like, I'm too stressed out in mother mode, even though she technically didn't give birth right, which seems to be kind of a physical, uh, starting point for a lot of, you know, libido downturn. Um, she is saying just with the logistics of children and responsibility, and I'm kind of mentally in mom mode, that takes me out of that. It's not necessarily fair though to throw all of the responsibility for the downturn in sexuality between you two on the kiddos. I think it's just one, one of many things. Like I said, it's the old last straw that broke the camel's back. And, uh, yeah, you had a lot of stuff piled up before that. It's just that it was able to, um, uh, weather the storm of all that stress. Even with all that going on, you were still able to stay connected, and that was a good thing. It's just like you identified, like, we were just ready for one more thing, and that really tipped us over the edge into disconnection. And that thing happened to be kiddos, unfortunately. So here you are, a year plus or more into We're just not connected here. Now, what are you doing, Mr. Wordsmith, to try and bridge the gap between you two?

Um, well, I mean, I researched and did all my due diligence there, watching podcasts, videos, reading books and so forth. And a lot of the same similar themes from you and a lot of the other guys in the space, uh, was to start with some self-improvement stuff. So I started eating better, working out, lost over 100 pounds, um, started getting my stuff together that way, started trying to deal with my stress and stuff a bit better. Went to some therapy. Um, two therapists told me that they couldn't help me unless I actually moved out of my current situation. Oh wow. I'm like, okay. So I'm like, all right, well that doesn't help me a lot, but thanks. And so then I just continued to work on that and that's what I've been doing till recently. And that's why, you know, everything's been okay as far as I know till just very recently, suddenly she just changed, like almost overnight, just changed. To where she's like no longer affectionate at all, no longer that friendly, kind of cold, standoffish towards me. And then, you know, kind of where we're at now.

Well, let's— okay, so let me back up. You went to more than one therapist, and more than one therapist told you, based upon everything you're telling me, Wordsmith, this is a pretty toxic situation that you need to get out of, right? You need to— you do need to take on some self-improvement, work on what's going on up here, work on your anxieties, great that you lost a bunch of weight. How much weight did you say you lost?

Over 100 pounds.

Over 100 pounds. So physically you had some work to do, and that, as you know in your research, has a great deal of effect on mentally where you're at.

Yeah.

So you, you're taking care holistically— pardon me— you're taking care holistically of a lot of things going on with you to try and fix the mental, fix the physical, and you're really working on yourself. And your therapists are listening to you going, great, but you still got to get the hell out of that house and away from that woman.

Yeah.

What was it about? Is there part of the story I'm missing here? Is there something that would— because I say this because I got to tell you, most therapists are not going to tell you to get the hell out of Dodge. Most of them are going to— most of them are going to work in service of the relationship, almost to a fault, almost to like, you need to work on this, you need to work on this. If there's physical abuse, they will tell somebody, leave before somebody gets hurt, goes to jail, whatever. But barring that, a lot of them will say, like, you know, I caught my wife screwing another man. Do you want to work on this relationship or not? You know, you got to put that behind us. That's very common in that world. Um, so for me to hear you say not one but two, is that right? Therapists told you to leave?

Yeah.

Is there more to the story I'm not hearing? Was it that bad? No, there's just the pattern of bad over and over again, and they see like it's not going to get any better.

Yeah, it's just been going on so long, it wasn't getting better. And she clearly didn't want to work on that, and it wasn't going to improve no matter what I did, really. I kind of came to that conclusion. And you can see how stressed out I was and how it was affecting me mentally and everything else. So they said, yeah, your stress and your anxiety— because that's really what I signed up for the therapy for, is uncontrolled anxiety. And I was having panic, and I was just at wit's end with all the stress of everything. Um, and they also said, yeah, I don't think— this is more of an environmental thing. I mean, all these things are pulling on you. You're probably not gonna get better unless you get out of that. Part of it.

Yeah, yeah, it's just so— and, and I'm trying to be as fair to her as possible because I'm only hearing one side of the story, right? So, um, but by the picture you have painted is one of a person who is— you tell me if I'm wrong— really dismissive of your feelings.

Um, yeah, I mean, felt that quite a bit the past several years.

I mean, worst case scenario, um, In my mind, if it's a healthy relationship between two people and the sex fizzles, which happens quite often, which is why I sold so many of my books. And for those that don't know what I'm talking about, the book is The Dead Bedroom Fix. Check it out. If you're a man, sexless relationship, check out The Dead Bedroom Fix. You can learn more at deadbedroomfix.com. But it's not unusual. It's a very, very common thing. But a healthy relationship will be one where one partner goes hat in hand to the other and says, Something's broken between us. We got to work on this. Are you willing to work with me on this? And the other person says, yes, I recognize the disconnection between us. I take ownership of this and this. But it's also you, partner, take ownership of this and this. Yes, we both have issues to work on. Okay, let's work on this together. That's healthy. A lot of men listening to that go, yeah, right, Ralph Brewer. Well, guys, a lot of you are in really dysfunctional, unhealthy relationships. What I just described is relatively common in the world of healthy, secure relationships. We got to work on this. Something's up here. Yeah, I agree. Let's do it. So you go to her and go, something's wrong. We got to work on this. This is broken. And she just goes, nah, dude, sorry.

Basically, yeah. I mean, it's like, yeah, it's not really— it's not a thing.

Toughen up, man. You know, it is what it is. There's worse things in life than two people not consummating their marriage, so to speak. Okay, fast forward to— did you say there was a sudden shift in her?

Oh yeah, like a few, a couple months back, she started getting like a little bit cold and distant. And, uh, I think, you know, I mentioned something about, you know, where we try to bring up a little bit of a personal talk again, maybe, or just see where she was at there. And that just seemed to like The very next day, she was just like checked out. Like, you know, she started saying all of a sudden, you know, like, okay, well, you know, things are gonna change, we're gonna do this and this. Just some different changes that she was making about like, uh, you know, my behavior was as far as like, you know, like, don't spend any money on the debit card, check, things like that. Just like, check.

Oh, I got you, I got you. So her behavior all seemed to point to she has checked out of the relationship.

Yeah, and it seemed like she was trying almost as if she was setting things up to do like a test run to see if she could do this by herself by just pushing me away from things.

Interesting.

Things I normally would do, she'd be like, no, I got it.

Now, in your mind, this is really an all of a sudden about-face change in her behavior?

Yeah, because things have been just a few months ago, have fun with the concerts together, have a few date nights, have pictures of that, we're having a good time. And then all of a sudden this happened. They're like, okay, seems like right around Thanksgiving, this seems to happen.

Now this is where, this is where the old eyebrow goes up and I say, a sudden change of behavior like that just doesn't come out of nowhere, right? Now I could very well go to her and go, what's up with you, Mary? Let's call her, um, I hope that's not a real name, that would be a good coincidence. So good. So Mary, what's up with you? Now she may very well say, dude, have a seat. The shit I've been going through with this guy, let me tell you. And she just may rattle off thing after thing of reasons why she's been upset with you. And it wasn't until this last thing he did that, that finally, that made me say, I'm done here. Now, I don't know what that thing may be, and you may not know what that thing may be. It may be some little thing you've done a million times, but it was the millionth time that made her say, I'm done here. That's kind of a somewhat complicated, who knows what's going on here. More nuanced way of looking at this, or the super simple and wordsmith, I'm sorry to say, often contributing factor here is with, with such a sudden shift like that, there has to be a part of you that says, is there somebody else in the picture here I'm not aware of?

Oh yeah. Yeah. I've thought that. It seems that way to me too, but I don't know. I don't have confirmation on that yet, but I would not be surprised.

Yeah. And, uh, I wouldn't be surprised either. I mean, you two have been, you two have been so emotionally and physically separate for a while. In essence, she checked out a while ago, if you want to use that term.

Yeah, she said, you know, she's been happy for years, and I'm like, really? It's news to me.

That's a, um, in the world of infidelity, um, that's a very common phrase, which is, this isn't an all of a sudden thing, dude or gal. But I'm just talking, I talk to dudes who've been cheated on, um, the wives will often tell them, I've been feeling this way for years. It, uh, and sometimes those women will pinpoint like a very, um, um, cataclysmic moment, at least in her mind. Like, remember back when we had that fight about da da da da da, right? Ever since then, I've kind of checked out. The guy's like, really? Why didn't you say something 3 years ago when we had that?

Oh, we've had this talk. I mentioned this to you. This is like, no, no, no, you didn't. I don't recall that.

Rewriting history, very, very common. Yeah, it makes you wonder how much is that reality, how much is completely fabricated. A lot of men I've talked to have said, dude, I'm telling you, what she said did not happen. I was there. That conversation, that incident, that whatever, it was complete opposite of what she's remembering. It's like, well, part of you, part of you, part of you wants to think that maybe this is a manifestation of her trying to absolve herself of some guilt. I feel bad about dismantling this family and leaving this man and cheating potentially and doing all these things. So let me just fabricate some shit to make me feel better. That's a pretty common human thing to do. Let me just make some shit up to feel better about myself or project all the blame onto the other person, even though they may have lied, cheat, steal, whatever it may be. No, it's you. You forced me to do this. Or no, no, I didn't do it. You did. You're like, wait, what?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, so common. So I wouldn't be surprised, Mr. Wordsmith, if there's some shenanigans going on behind the scenes, whatever that may be.

And it will also—

go ahead.

Also, just have— on my end, I have to think, okay, I'm not sure what she thinks is gonna happen with— if she does meet somebody else, but what, what guy really wants to step into this thing going on? She's— yeah, maybe 40. She's got 5 kids who— that's just having 5 kids— have special needs, a lot of issues. And like, what guy wants to chain himself to that? I mean, if you're a single guy out there, you're not looking to get chained to something.

No, no. Here's the thing. A common phrase that I hear amongst men that do— that discover this kind of stuff or go through this stuff is, what is she thinking?

Yeah.

Another is, this doesn't make any sense. You know, I'll have some guy that's like, my wife is dirt poor, has all this debt, has all these health problems or whatever, and she happened to meet some dude at her part-time go-nowhere job that makes her feel great, and she thinks that they're going to move in together and he's going to take her— what is she thinking, right? And I got to tell you, if it fills you with some sense of— and dude, let me just back up, we're assuming a lot here. We don't even know if this is going on, but let's presume that it is going on, that there is somebody else. And yes, number one, you have to tell your— if it helps soften the blow a little bit This doesn't necessarily mean that she's doing, like I say, the hokey pokey with another man, right? It could be she's just forming somewhat of an emotional something with somebody. Yeah, she's having coffee with somebody at work or lunch or whatever, and right, that taps into something in her that goes, I haven't had this kind of discourse with another human being in so long. This guy is interesting, this guy is funny, this guy is— in other words, she's falling for him. And I don't know if I felt that with Wordsmith over here and shit, I don't know how long. And then the resentment starts to build. And then that little thing that you do, which she used to think was cute and then she used to think was kind of annoying and now she just lives with it. It is what it is. Now becomes suddenly the thing that just makes her want to jump off the roof.

Right.

Just everything that you do that's normal human wordsmith is now amplified a thousandfold unbeknownst to you. And you're just being your same old wordsmith, same old taking care of all the shit, driving the kids to all their doctor things, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And unbeknownst to you, you're just building this resume of reasons why I need to dump wordsmith. And you're just sitting there and one day she just goes, yeah, I don't like you anymore. And you're like, wait, what? You don't realize that this has been building in her head for months, if not years now.

Right.

All because she had some little connection with somebody. All the way to the worst case scenario, which is, yeah, she's doing the full-on monkey sex with some dude unbeknownst to you somewhere else. Now, right, hearing that, does that— let's say for sure, I, I, you don't know this, but I'm a private investigator. Words— this is fake, by the way. I'm, I'm a, I'm a private investigator wordsmith, and just so happens I got all the evidence in the world. Yeah. Your wife's got a full-blown affair with somebody, right? What are your thoughts on that?

Uh, well, I mean, it definitely hurt and definitely tough to deal with, but I mean, like I said, I would not be surprised by the sense of behavior. Um, and I was just trying to move on, and it's— I mean, it doesn't hurt. Well, you feel betrayed and all this, you know, doing as it would feel. Yeah, I mean, you just have to deal with it.

I mean, going forward in life, if I said not only has she had an affair, that's one level of pain, betrayal that you mentioned. So on top of that, she's also about to drop some divorce papers on the table. Be prepared, dude, it's coming. Is there a part of you that's a little excited about that? A new chapter in your life, moved on from what is a loveless marriage, or do you to say, holy shit, I don't know what to do with myself? Somewhere in between? Where are you mentally with all that?

Well, I mean, basically, uh, a couple weeks before Christmas, she did, you know, we had a talk and she did say she wants to divorce. And she's been full-on, 100%, just fast-tracking the whole thing. Um, we've had the meeting with the, uh, lawyers a couple days after Christmas, and papers have been filed, and it's just been that fast. So it's been devastating. It's hurt way more than I thought it would because she has—

your audio was in and out a little bit. I apologize for those watching this, uh, this is no fault of either of us, but the audio is just a little wonky with Wordsmith. But, um, so she dropped this in your lap, and since then it's been kind of— she's really been expediting this process. Go, go, go with the divorce.

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I just felt like almost like trying to get me out.

And you're kind of shell-shocked at all this, like Yeah, maybe soften the blow a little bit of what is, yeah, what is arguably one of the most difficult emotional times for anybody, divorce. And here's Ralph Brewer going, yeah, so anyway, chop chop, let's go, let's sign here, sign this, sign that. Are you, do you have legal representation to help protect you during all this?

Um, yeah, we basically agreed on everything as far as the terms and went to a mediator, just have everything done like one day basically. So it's really fast and done. Um, she's gonna pay me alimony. She agreed to a certain amount. That's fine with me for a couple years. I'm setting myself up, moving into a new place this weekend. So, I mean, it's happening just that fast.

Yeah, yeah, dude, I hate to pile on this, and I am prejudiced when it comes to all this stuff. I will be the first to admit. I, with my background and after talking to so many men that have gone through this, I'm going to say with 90% certainty, yeah, there's somebody else, dude.

Oh yeah.

Given the circumstances, I'm just picturing like family and friends looking at her going, you're what now? Are you nuts? You have the 4 special needs kids, he's taking care of all this stuff, and you're basically booting him out the door saying, beat it, dude. Have you thought this through? Because logistically, dude, her life's going to be extremely difficult.

Yeah, as much as she's working.

And so the follow-up to that is your life is going to be so extremely difficult unless you have a team of helpers working for peanuts that we're not aware of. Your life just got exponentially more difficult, woman. Yeah, which goes towards this whole she's not thinking straight, which goes towards, yeah, people in affairs typically don't think straight at all, right? People that are head over heels for somebody, and you want to hate to use the word in love because that really hurts to hear somebody say that about your loved one with somebody else, but That's in essence what they are— in love, in lust, whatever. They make really stupid life decisions. Like, you know, fingers crossed this doesn't happen, knock on wood, count your blessings, whatever you want to say here. I've heard horror stories of women just dropping the kids to husbands saying adiós, and they take off for parts unknown because they met some dude online or whatever it may be, you know. And the guy's like, what just happened? Um, your version is— I wouldn't be surprised— coworker or something like that. She needs to get you out so that she can have a little loveness to herself and she can start anew with new guy. And you're right, you gotta say, what new guy or gal— still there, that's pretty common— uh, what person would be so gung-ho about saying, sweet, you dropped your husband and now you and I are going to raise 4 special needs children while you're working your ass off and every That is not the most typical loveness, new relationship, whatever you want to call it, template, right? Very unusual.

Yeah, this is very strange. I mean, just come, something kind of out of left field there. It just seemed— yeah, I think I've seen most of it happen from day to night when I, um, you know, suggested, you know, either possibly having some physical connection or just having to talk again. And it just seemed like she just didn't want to talk about it. And then just the next day she was just done. Something about that triggered her to just say, this is over. I don't know why that one specific thing did, but yeah.

Interesting. Well, regardless, we could sit here all day long and say, you know, I bet you what's going on and I bet you what's going on. I wonder if it's Regardless, the woman has checked out.

Yeah.

Regardless, your life has changed completely, Wordsmith.

Oh yeah.

And do you have help?

Yeah, my family's helping a little bit. I mean, everything's set up for my new place to move into. I'm scrambling to find a job. The whole freelance game has changed considerably since COVID hit and everybody's doing that now. So it's, right now, things are uncertain. So yeah, I'm stressed out a little bit. I'm having a lot of emotions, a lot of difficulty with anxiety again. I'll be fine for like a day or two, then suddenly waves of stuff will hit me and I'll end up like, you know, fighting back tears and stuff. Like, how's this happening? I mean, I still love her and, you know, it's just, it's a lot to deal with. But yeah. Yeah.

And you know, there is this ultra manly fake alpha male mindset, if you will. Where it goes too far into, ah, screw that woman, what the hell, to the point where if some men hearing you say, I still love her, would be like, nah, dude, you F that bitch, or whatever, you know, sorry, whatever.

That's—

I'm not saying that's what she is, but that's what a lot of men would say. I'm here to tell you, your emotions are very normal, very human, and frankly, you would be weird not to have some residual, if not full-blown, love for the woman because you've been with her for so many years, Wordsmith. I mean, give yourself a break, right? Although it seems like that's what she's doing, she's switched like that, doesn't mean you necessarily need to follow suit, and it doesn't make it healthy. It's perfectly normal to have these residual feelings for somebody that's hurt you like this, and it's perfectly normal to be going through the ups and downs, the roller coaster through all this. Give yourself some grace, give yourself a break. You're going to go through it. It's going to be a while, dude, before you feel—

I mean, it's been weeks and months, like, when's it going to stop happening? Let me find— for a bit, suddenly You know, the tears will start up. I was just— sure, I keep remembering the way things were in the early part, which is also very common. I'm not really mourning for who she is now, but who she used to be and all the things we shared together, all the experiences. And now things are just way different. I'm like, how did that happen? You know, I see a picture of something I was back then, it's like, wow, that went from that to this, and so, so quickly it seems like. Just, it's just messing with your head a lot.

Yeah, that's tough, and that's all perfectly normal. You're not weak for thinking that. You're not weird for thinking all those things. It's— who wouldn't have all these range of emotions after all the shit that you've been through and where you're at now and how this has been? We can suddenly— some people may snicker at that, like, this isn't sudden, dude, this has been coming for a while. True, but to have it so suddenly, uh, like that, you know, it's not like you guys went through therapy and counseling for a year and tried things and yeah, and then you decided mutually this just isn't working. No, it's like suddenly wife's just like, eh, fuck it, you're out of here, dude.

Yeah, and I even suggested therapy here right after all this, and she's like, no, no, that's exactly right, dude.

She's checked out.

And you always say about— talk about the lack of sex being a canary in the coal mine, but a lot of times you just look and look and look, you can't see that canary. I still look back like, I don't see where she said this is not working for me, this is a problem, and this should be fixed, or this— you know, other than minor little disagreements here, that I didn't see anything big, like any huge red flags, like, oh, this is a problem. I should work on this.

Well, it's the, the problem necessarily, again, wasn't like these distinct little moments of fights and arguments and this thing, that thing. It was, it could be argued, the shaky ground that it began on. And, uh, like building that wall that I was talking about, the, you built the wall, you built the wall, you, you kept adding bricks to it. The kids were the kind of the fault, the final brick that made the whole thing kind of wobbly. You got a little too tall there, not strong enough of a base, keeping with that analogy. And then, um, and that's when the sexlessness came about. It's just that that's such a distinctly bad thing in our mind as dudes that we look at that as this grand thing to look at to say, where did all this go wrong?

Right?

Where before that there was like 10 or 12 things, dude, before this, the sexlessness thing. Canary in the coal mine, if you will. It's just this big spotlight on all these other little problems below that, that you haven't necessarily ignored, but you didn't realize that, yeah, all those things matter. And yeah, all those little things build up over time. And you're now— you're going to look on this, look back on this, and now you have this blessing slash curse of hindsight, right? We're gonna go, yeah, Shouldn't have ignored that little thing when it happened. Yeah, those little moments that kind of suck, we should have addressed that more thoroughly. Yeah, maybe, well, my anxieties and depression and so forth was a bigger detriment at the beginning of the relationship than I thought. Maybe that we should have— I should have taken her feelings more into account then. And a lot of blaming yourself, a lot of what-ifs, but in the end you'll come to the same conclusion. I— that can't help this relationship. This relationship is done. Uh, what it can help though, some of this hindsight looking back and stuff, is to learn from it so you don't do this again. And so you repair what's going on up here in you and, um, make a good home for those children. Uh, yeah, they're gonna be going through it. Um, you're going to be going through it, the kids are going to be going through it, and it's going to take a whole lot not, not to do the whole talk to Mom, not me. She's the one who blew all this up, not me.

Oh yeah, yeah, a lot of that. And as far as like the kids, everything, she very much wants to stay in their lives and everything and be part of it, all that. So she doesn't have any animosity towards me in any way, it doesn't seem like. She's not trying to keep the kids from me, she's not trying to Yes, remember financially, she just said, okay, I'll give you this much, this much, this will be cool.

She's just like, okay, well, the cynical side of me, Wordsmith, says she needs you quite a bit still. Oh yeah, um, in terms of helping with all this stuff with the kiddos and everything. Yeah, yeah, she's not going to completely say beat it, dude, because where's she going to be then? Then she'll have zero life. She can't manage the two without you. She literally needs you in her life still.

I mean, by the way, with that family remotely close to us, mine lives in Europe.

So how are you, how are you logistically going to do this?

Um, well, I mean, the kids do have a lot of in-home therapies. It does, that helps a little bit. Um, but still, I'm not sure exactly how she's going to do it. She works from home a lot, uh, mostly, so that helps a lot there too. But And I got a place nearby, but when I get whatever job I have to get or how that goes out, you know, I'm— yes, I don't know what my schedule's gonna be like.

And do the kids go to school?

Yeah. Yeah. They're all in school.

So they're all in school. So for most of the day they're gone to that.

Yeah.

5 days a week at least, except holidays. So I'm trying to think it's a day they're not in school for whatever reason, holiday, just whatever. Um, kid's sick.

I don't know.

And your wife's working from home and she's got a meeting, an important Zoom meeting she's supposed to be in on, kids screaming, some kind of chaos with children, 4 kids, they're all home. Is— does she then call Wordsmith to say, fix this please?

Um, if I'm available, or she'll hire a sitter, I guess. Um, I was gonna say that, but you're— we have a few of those.

But you're divorced now, and now you're trying to make your own living and pay your rent and everything else. And I know she's gonna be paying you alimony or whatever, but you need to go make some extra money. And you start a career, if you will, whatever it may be, you're not going to be available to her. You're going to be like, sorry, I'm working.

Yeah, I just don't know if she's really thought through the full impact.

No, I just logistically, that's where my head goes, is all the little detail. I'm a detail guy.

That's one of the reasons I didn't, you know, divorce before, because I mean, like, how does this work? I mean, with that special situation, I don't see how we could do it.

Yeah, I've mentioned before, um, and one not so nice, um, aspect of when you study, uh, marriage and you, and you try to determine what is it that— what was the glue that kept the olden days, you know, the good old days with grandmas, right? What made them like last like 50, 60 years with some of these marriages? It's ridiculous. And when you look at it, you go, was it like this? Were they really connected emotionally and loving and sexually? And were they just— were people back then just so romantic?

And it's no.

It's she needed him and he needed her. Done.

Right.

That's basically what kept the glue together. And you've just identified it yourself. Like, you were questioning this relationship, like, why am I with this woman who obviously doesn't like me in that way anymore? This is ridiculous. And then you stopped yourself and you said, well, kids.

Yeah.

What am I going to do? We have 4 special needs kids. The career thing is lacking and all that. I got— I got to work this out. And so you stayed to try and work it out.

—and you were— even stay-at-home dad's been very difficult. I mean, it's been insanely difficult, just that the both of us here all the time. It's like, now, like, how's this going to work?

Brother, you're in for it. This is, this is, uh, I mean, I hate to be Mr. Cynical Negative and just pile on to a man, but I'm doing this out of love, if you will, uh, brotherly love here, put my arm around you to say, dude, You ain't seen nothing yet. You're in for it. It's gonna get nutty, um, especially— okay, I'm gonna assume, like I say with 90% certainty, there's another human being in the picture. Well, statistically, those relationships don't last, right?

So even if someone's in the picture, it's— he's probably just looking to get some. I don't think he's— I don't know, who knows.

Whatever that is over there, that thing over there. Is probably not going to last. Right. And so things get really squirrely when that shit starts going down. And then she suddenly— the fog lifts, if you will, to use that vernacular. You've heard the affair fog and all this other stuff. So the fog lifts and suddenly she's left going, I— my life is really difficult and this really sucks. And instead of coming to you hat in hand, as I often say, and saying, "Wordsmith, buddy, I'm sorry I did what I did. That was really shitty of me. Now, yes, I had an affair. This and this happened, and I was thinking stupid thoughts. Can we work on us again? Can we try?" Instead of that, which happens occasionally but not often from what I've seen, usually what happens is they lash out even more at you. And they make your life even more difficult than what it already is. And you're like, the next thing you know, a text message is like, 9 screens long. It's not— you're like, where did this come from? What did I do? And you're reading, it's just unloading on you. You this, you that, and you're like, is this person drunk? What is going on? And then you realize their life is collapsing and they're lashing out and they're— and it doesn't go well, dude. It's, it's not pretty to sit back and watch. And you're like, this is nuts. Prepare. That may very well happen to you, to the— all the way to the level of she may disappear. That happens. I doubt it. Be honest with you. Yeah, probably not. Probably not, but you never know. So I'm just saying, take care of yourself, dude. Prepare yourself. You're going to have those wacky moments. You're going to have those nutty moments where you're like, what is this woman doing? She already left me. Is— am I not injured enough here? What the hell? Um, all the way to the possibility of, hey, Wordsmith buddy, can we work on us again, please? That may happen. Have you— I'm sure you've thought about and daydreamed about that. Um, What do you think you would do in that case?

Um, I'd say hard pass. Hard pass. I'd have to say no. I mean, it was probably— I'd be more and more excited about the prospect of starting over, and even things are difficult, I mean, relationship-wise. No, I just don't see that happening again.

Life going forward for Wordsmith. There you are in your apartment, I assume, alone.

Yeah, I'm moving to a one-bedroom apartment, so How are you going to do time alone?

I mean, you've been conditioned, for lack of a better word, to have these kids and the noise of children, the activity of children, um, around you and in the background, in the periphery for all these years. And suddenly, that— hear that silence? You're gonna— yeah, you're gonna be alone. Does that— yeah, does that fill you with a sense of, all right, I'm looking forward to it?

Or is that— yes and no. I mean, yes, for the peace and quiet, not waking up to screaming kids every morning at 5 AM. That would be nice. But mostly I'm just missing the connection with having a partner with her, which I've missed for a long time anyway. But now she's completely gone. She's not even going to be there physically. So it's going to be different because I've never actually lived alone, I don't think, before, at least for not very long. So it will be an experience.

And you, you know me, you've watched my stuff. I caution you against— don't go trying to replace Mary with somebody else right away. Yeah, that's just asking for trouble, mister.

Yeah, I'll try not to do that, but you know, I'm stupid, so I probably will. I'll work on trying to avoid the pitfalls. But, uh, yeah, and I'm supposed to focus on me trying to get ahead financially, keep on the weight loss and everything, and try to get myself squared away mentally and so forth.

Yeah, take— continue taking care of yourself physically. You're in, you're in a very sensitive spot, as you know, um, emotionally, mentally, very sensitive, boundaries down, all that good stuff, to where you are susceptible to things like alcohol, substance abuse, overeating. Again, sounds like you don't— done that before, um, not taking care of yourself and doing things that make you feel good really quickly. And, uh I am susceptible to that as well. I'm susceptible to overeating. My weight goes up and down pretty easily. I can snack like nobody else to the point where I'm like, this isn't good. So I have to keep that shit out of the house. I'm one of those people. Like, oh, me too. So Wordsmith had to step aside for a second and he came back saying, uh, yeah, as far as the overeating is concerned, he can't really afford that right now. So we had a shared laughter in that. But, uh, like here the other day I was just telling you how we had that big snowstorm and the ice and everything else. So I was stuck alone in this home in the dark for a while, and I'm like, well, you know, you just want to sit and snack. You want to eat some stuff and drink some hot chocolate and do all this other stuff. So I have to really— no, don't do that. Well, maybe I could whip up some cookies. What? No. What am I sitting by myself eating cookies? What am I doing? So that's my little struggle, and I realize it's because in the moment I'm kind of an anxious little dude sitting there going like, what am I going to do next? I'm bored. Control myself. Yours is going to be like a super duper version of that. And what a lot of men in your position do to kind of feel better is go for the ladies. And, you know, these— hold up my phone here— these phones make it really easy these days to get on all kinds of apps and so forth to say, hey, I'm Mort Smith, and let's get together for coffee tomorrow, and away you go. And, um, in your current condition, if you will, you're going to attract all the wrong people, my man. Oh yeah. So be careful, that's all I'm saying. But I understand the need for reaching out for human interaction, love, companionship, whatever you want to call it. It just— it can send you down some really not so good roads. Um, get on top of the, you know, continue working on the anxiety. Um, are you on any medication for that or anything? Or—

no, no, I've tried those in the past and they never did anything for me.

So, okay, I was gonna say maybe something to pursue. I don't know, I'm just trying to think of something to get ahead of what could be some, you know, big, uh, downward turns in the old roller coaster here, right? Um, staying on top of the physicality, um, working with other dudes, something that a lot of men— thank you, kids, wife, jobs, whatever— we just set aside completely. And it's one of the healthiest things we can do for our mental and physical health is just getting in social groups with men, sport clubs, whatever it may be. Our group, the Brotherhood, where you talk to guys online like, you know, through Zoom meetings and in the forums and just sharing and chit-chatting back and forth, um, hugely, hugely beneficial. And for anybody listening to this or watching this, The Brotherhood is the name of our group. Go to helpformen.com/join and you can learn more about it. We have all kinds of cool benefits and help out guys like Wordsmith here. Um, whether it's our group or another group or a sport club or all the above, you need to be in contact with other dudes. And that's something that probably you've kind of put on the back burner for now, not really actively pursued, but I would say put that right up near the front there. Sure. Um, if that's something like, well, I've never really ever done that before, well, it's time to start. And it may mean if you're a basketball dude, go join a basketball rec league. If you're a bowling guy, bowling group, I don't know, whatever it may be, but you can find it. It's just you need to, you need to actively go search it out. You got to do something. And we as human beings are engineered to socialize, and when we don't, we start going a little nuts. That's all there is to it. So, you know, take care of yourself, buddy. You're going through it right now. Yeah, it's pretty rough. I appreciate you reaching out with all your stories and sharing it with the world and me making the little videos and clips. I don't know if you're aware, but some of the clips that I've taken from what you have written have gone kind of semi-viral, so A lot of interest. Uh, one here on TikTok here recently, I think you were the one, correct me if I'm wrong, where you say your ponderings on, um, women not liking when men relax. I think that was you, um, saying, you know, women, yeah, women like it when men are active and doing things that help with the family, but when we just sit and do nothing, they really don't like that. Well, I took that little clip and that took off. So you have a way with words, obviously.

Yeah, that's the wordsmith. And writing.

So continue pursuing that, maybe starting up a blog all about your thoughts and adventures, writing a book all about what you've gone through. I can certainly help you in that regard as far as the self-publishing world. And you probably— maybe you know that world even better than I do, but I've written a couple, you know, a couple books, 4 books. One of them took off, and, uh, it's, uh You know, I'm excited for you. It's one way. Thanks, man.

Appreciate that. Yeah, definitely. With the writing, that's not about doing a lot of that, put together some books, we're starting an online newsletter or something.

All kinds of stuff you could do with that. But I, I'm also going to be a realist and tell you that's not going to pay the bills, right? Um, you need to do something else to make your, your regular weekly or monthly, whatever paycheck coming in. And then if you want to do it bad enough, you'll do the writing on the side. You, you'll be, you'll be up to 2 in the morning doing the writing if you want it that bad. And, um, the writing is a muscle that you have to exercise every single day. Oh yeah. And if you don't, you lose it. And so what, whatever kind of writing it is, a little couple paragraphs on a blog versus a couple of chapters in your next book, but you scrap one of the chapters because it ends up sucking and you redo it. You got to keep going and going and going. Don't give up. Don't give up on that.

Yeah, the writing stuff has always come pretty easily to me. I mean, I used to do the— most of the freelance writing I did before was Kindle ghostwriting. And I did like, you know, you get paid in like words. I'm typically doing about 10,000 words a day. Wow. That's impressive. I pick it up pretty fast. They said if I came up in like the early 20th century, I would have been one of those Pulp Fiction guys who were pumping out the words like crazy. So, yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to getting back into doing something with that. That.

And I'd be curious to see how the AI technology kind of takes over a lot of that, kind of where it's at. Right. That still, I think though, people will pay a premium for real human writing stuff. Right as it is right now, the technology, we can tell. Yeah. Soon we won't be able to, which is kind of concerning. You know, I've made my living off of writing, so interesting times. But Wordsmith, thank you for sharing your story. Um, if you want to leave with any kind of advice, again, it would be take care of yourself, dude. Take care of yourself. Don't worry so much about what she's doing. I know I say that and I just filled your head with all kinds of thoughts and worries about what's this woman doing.

I've had the same thoughts for a while.

You're not dumb. You realize something's going on there. Yeah, but let her do her thing and genuinely wish her all the best. You don't want to see a person suffer.

Yeah, I don't. And, you know, I'm afraid that she's going to realize the grass is not greener on the other side. A little bit too late down the road.

So, and you know what, what if she doesn't? What, what if life for her from here on out is smooth sailing? She ends up being marrying a trillionaire who allows her to stay home and take care of the kids, and you'd be like, God bless you, good, good for you. Yeah, cool. All you can worry about is Wordsmith going forward.

Yeah, yeah, and it's on me and starting a new life.

So yeah, and you're how old now?

I'm about to turn 44. Say again? About to turn 44.

44, okay, still a youngish man, so cool. I got a few years on you, but, um, so got a lot of life, a lot of life ahead of you. And, uh, you got your brains about you, you have your health. Sounds like you're healthier than ever now, so, uh, yes, getting there. You have a lot, uh, a lot working in your favor, so don't let, uh A lot of that negative stuff out there, you know, a lot of anti-woman, anti-relationship, anti-whatever. Let it go in one ear, out the other. Don't let it deter you from your mission, which is basically you getting better and staying better. And then also worrying about those kiddos and making sure their life is a good one. So I wish you all the best. Thanks for reaching out, man. I appreciate it. Stay in touch. Right, yeah, we'll check out the group if you haven't done so already. I welcome you to check that out. I can send you a link to check it out for free, no charge to you, and then share your story with the rest and commiserate with some dudes, make some new friends there. We have a lot of guys out in your part of the world. I can think of a couple that are very active in, in your city, um, that belong to our group. Be nice to maybe get with them on occasion in real life. We have guys that do meetups and stuff all the time. We get together in person, so One day you and I may shake hands, who knows. But, um, regardless, uh, thanks for sharing your story. Appreciate it. Wish you all the best. And for those, you know, watching this, if you can relate to some of this and you need some extra help, check out help4men.com. We have free articles, videos, all kinds of cool stuff, courses, books, and our community that we call the HFM, Help for Men, Brotherhood. You can learn more at help4men.com/join. And once again, Mr. Wardsmith, thank you so very much. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks, man.

Appreciate it.