Chat LIVE with Ralph & Laura How: Attachment, Monogamy & Why Nobody Grows Up Anymore

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person, real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. With me today is the lovely and talented Miss Laura Howe from YouTube fame.. And give us your website real quick so I can put it in the comments here, if you don't mind.

It's laurahow.com. Well, that's what it is.

There you go. Can't go wrong with that. Yeah, no, straight. Guys, check it out. And Laura Howe, do a search on YouTube and you'll find her. I did a quick search and you're the first thing that comes up, thank goodness.

Sexless marriage, that's what you'll see.

There you go. Sexless marriage, Laura Howe. All right, an error occurred, wait for a moment and try again. Oh, because it's thinks I'm trying to, uh, comment on your feed, and I guess I can't do that. Don't know, because this is going simulcast. You may want to, um, make sure that it is going— for Russell there, if he can hear me, you may want to make sure it's going to your Facebook and your YouTube Live and everything is good there.

Don't worry about us, Ralph.

Well, I want to make sure your audience sees this as well. I know, because you have— kind man, you have a huge audience, my friend. On YouTube, Facebook. You need some help there. We need to grow your Facebook.

We just started. We just started. I know, I know that we've made a dent in it because the locals are sort of giving me a wide berth nowadays. All the, all the wives, people that used to say hello, they don't say hello so kindly anymore. It's got the chill to it.

Interesting. You are the persona non grata there. Is it? Why is that, Laura? Here's a— here is the big question of all questions. Why don't ladies like you very much?

I keep getting asked that, see, um, because I think I'm doing the thing that you're not supposed to do, which is talk about the thing that they've agreed they all don't want to do. And they, you know, that's like the silent pact. We're not talking about the fact that we're not going to have sex. That's how we like it. It's not our fault. It's because men need to step up. So if you say something that runs counter to that, I think particularly as a woman, you know, that's going to be, I don't know, put you out there as a, as a, you know, not in, not, not favorite person of the month.

Are you familiar with this internet phrase of you're a pick-me woman? Have you seen this?

No. Is it kind?

No.

Am I going to like it, Ralph?

It is basically mostly younger women online. This is my interpretation, please correct me guys in the comments if I'm wrong. Um, when they see a woman saying something pro-male combined with maybe, and ladies, we can do better, here's some things we can do better, they will say basically what you're doing is you are, Laura, doing the pick-me dance. You know, like the little animals on the, on the Nature Channel. You're trying to win the favor of men. That's the only reason why you're doing this. You're like, guys, pick me, I, I'm better than those other girls.

Why would I do that when I'm happily married?

Of no interest to get attention, I suppose.

I already got picked, ladies.

So we got to— I'm looking at some comments here, guys. I love it, you had comments before we even went live. That's awesome. I want to call out Mr. Costa Blanca. He says he's from Costa Blanca in Spain. Viva España, Mr. Costa Blanca. Hello, did you see the shirt today? My mother is from Zaragoza. So, hola, Costa Blanca. So, hello, welcome. And yes, go Spain. That was an awesome game yesterday. Did you watch the World Cup, Laura?

I watched England's last match. That was the only one. And I, it was very happy and then obviously not at all happy. So yeah, I don't, I know, I know, I know well enough not to get invested, but the World Cup's slightly different, isn't it? Even I will watch that. But yes. Uh, sad. I don't think we're a very exciting team.

England, not a very exciting team. Yeah, they were fun to watch.

Did you—

they had that one dreamy guy on there that I keep seeing all the women love. I don't know who he is, what his name is. He has an excellent head of hair, that's all I can think of. And he's— no, you don't know what I'm talking about? I don't know his name either, but I just don't— my daughter loves him.

I don't know. I— that was the first time I had laid eyes on the English coach. I thought it was Southgate. I mean, that's how not mainstream— I just don't watch TV. I'm not— I don't know big— no, nothing. I live in the woods, really, in Somerset. I don't know anything. So yeah, so I just tuned in briefly.

Back in the day, I was like a big TV watcher. Like, I knew what day it was by what, what show was on live on TV at the time. And now it's just, just done. I— we have like little shows we watch on Netflix together at night, like an hour before bed, and that's it. That's That's all we do. And then sports, you know, I'll watch.

I think it's a sign of a secure attachment that, that, you know, that you don't need a distraction. You don't need— it's one of the things that I've found that I've just been able to let go of because, um, I'm really quite well and deep down sort of— yes, what's the word— content.

My excuse is that I'm just busy and who has time to sit and watch so much? I, I know.

True. Yes, that's exactly right too. Yeah, same. You must be like me. I mean, I live and breathe this stuff. So I'm so tired by the end of the day with all of the thinking about this stuff as well that, yeah, the last thing I want to do is, yeah, true.

And you have a much-needed holiday coming up soon. Going to España.

We are. We're spending a week in Mallorca in a villa.

Have you been there before?

Yes, several times. It's a favorite. I keep thinking I should go somewhere else, but I like it that much.

I went to, uh, in one trip I went to Mallorca and Barcelona, as they say, and I like Mallorca better. I thought it was nicer. I thought I wasn't too thrilled with Barcelona for whatever reason, but everybody told me I had to go.

Yeah, yeah, I spent a lot of time in Barcelona. My dad lived there for a very long time, so I'm very familiar. I've lived a lot of Brits in Spain, a lot of Brits in Spain. It's like we like drinking, and if we can go find a hot place to do our drinking, then all the better. Very good. The shameful Brits abroad.

We have questions already flying in. This is one of the most active live stream chats, comments, whatever I've seen to date, Laura. This shows you the power of Miss Laura Howe. The first question is from Fight for a Better Now. He says, question for Laura, a short video of a woman who was wanting to get out of her marriage, and the law said there was no legal way for her to get out without her husband's consent. In the comments, a woman commented that a woman should be able to leave a marriage at any time for any reason. I responded, that's interesting. A woman should be able to break a vow that she gave— death till us part— at any time. So he thinks that a person shouldn't be able to say I'm out of here at any time. This makes me question whether or not the female perspective of duty to marriage is completely different from the male perspective. Curious on your thoughts.

Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, I was saying to Ralph before we came on, I think that we're— I can't believe the, the level, the, the scope of attachment problems. More and more I'm starting to just see attachment dysfunction everywhere. I think that the, the, the change in a, in sentiment regarding marriage generally to me speaks of this, this attachment, widespread attachment dysfunction. The fact that, you know, nobody can— nobody seems to agree that, that, you know, that a commitment to another person for the good of our children is a, is a, you know, a wise choice anymore. Sort of, you know, I don't know. I, I, I don't know what to make of it. I, I think it's a noble act to, to do your best to commit to one person and to, uh, have the courage to grow alongside them. That's one of the many benefits of staying with one person for, for a long time, is that you can really get stuck in regarding what's wrong with you. And you know, that, that, that person will have the best view, um, because they've been watching you for however long, you know. So it's— for me, it's— I think people aren't— I don't— I think it's easy to say that, that you know, it's because of somebody else that you would leave and because marriage is rubbish, you know. But I think the truth is that people don't want to grow. They, they, they've— I think that it's too— people are too lazy, too cowardly. They can't face what's, what's within them. Um, so I don't know. I think, I think that's it. I think it's easier to throw away the thing than to face what's wrong with us. And I think that's why people walk away from it. It's not because it's just convenient to blame it on, on the institution or the other person. I think it's— I think it's— I still, I still think that it's, it's one of the most courageous and beautiful choices you can make over and over again, because that's the truth. It's that you stick with the marriage regardless of what's in front of you, stick with the person, you stick with yourself. That's That's the, that's the truth. But I don't think people have got the stamina for it.

But at the same time though, we have to admit that gets some people in trouble in terms of— I mean, let's flip the genders and say it's a guy who's in an extremely toxic relationship to a woman who wants nothing to do with him, treats him like dirt, has done so for over 10 years. And all of his friends and Ralph online and everyone says, dude, writing's been on the wall for a while now. She doesn't want anything to do with you. She keeps mistreating you. It's time to leave a toxic situation, you know, show your kids what a good relationship looks like and so forth. And he will say back, I made my vows, I'm a man of my word. Even though we haven't touched each other for 10 years and she's maybe cheated so many times or something awful like that, um, I still— I, I made my vows in front of God in the church and everything else, and I'm, I'm sticking to it. I can see his point, but at the same time, that just breeds a whole generational thing of dysfunction down the line, and your kids have the same problems and the grandkids, and it's just a mess. So, but I can see both sides of it.

Well, I can too, but I think if you're using the most extreme cases as a reason to, to, to give up on a, on a perfectly, perfectly valuable way of, you know, not, it's not even value. It's, it's a natural order. You know, that the, the ideal, we're talking about the ideal, the ideal is a, is a is an agreement with— of two people to, to continually do their best for one another, for the good of the children. That's the ideal. So that's what you're supposed to be striving for. But it's like people use the worst, the worst possibility and, and, you know, make that the reason that— I don't know, I think it's sort of like smoke and mirrors. I think we're, we're, we're, we've, we've become, we've become misguided. You're supposed to be looking at the potential, you know, the best possible version of the thing, not using the worst possible version as the reason for not continuing with it because it's difficult. It is difficult.

Yeah. And one thing that I see, and maybe a little biased in my, in what I see and who I hear from, but it seems to be more so from the ladies that at least reach out to me and comment on stuff, is the notion of Okay, at the early stage of the relationship, I'm head over heels in love with this man, and this means we're meant to be. Obviously, they think. And then 3, 5, 10 years later, I'm not so head over heels in love with this man like I used to be. This must point to something's really wrong here, and this must point to maybe we're drifting apart, maybe we're not meant to be. And if you don't have any boundaries and you don't have any good role models for relationships, you naturally kind of drift away from them. And to who? To somebody else. And maybe you're talking to some guy at work over coffee and you're like, now I'm feeling things for this guy, that must mean that this marriage over here is no good, let's just split. Um, that's something that I hear quite often in my material from the ladies. And unfortunately, I think the message needs to get across of, no, that's one of those life tests. It's perfectly okay to have feelings for other people and so forth, but that shows you you need to turn around and direct that energy to hubby over there, and you guys need to work at coming back together and so on and so forth. For whatever reason, that messaging right there is seen as, I don't know, um, paternalistic— and that's not the word— patriarchal, or whatever it may be, especially when it comes from a man, that, you know, you're supposed to do your duty, wife, and reconnect with your husband. It's like, nah, that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that long-term monogamy can be tough at times, and it's, um, you got to know, have a little know-how, have the tools in your toolbox to make it work. And a lot of people—

yeah, but I also think part of the problem there, Ralph, is that people are conditioned to look, look at the problem being outside of themselves. You know, everybody's quick to say, you know, I fell out of love because he did X, Y, and Z. It's not that people are in the habit of thinking the issues that are between us now are a combination, but an exquisite combination of what's wrong with both of us. You know, so the, the, the, the, the, the reflex, the healthiest reflex is to look inward. And to consider what dysfunction in you is causing the, the trouble. Now I know, again, people say, well, what if you're in abusive marriage? It's like, stop using that. Stop using that. So frustrating. You're supposed to— we are supposed to be looking at what is wrong with us. You know, no one's going to argue the tendency or the proclivity within, within human nature to, to, you know, to be mad, to be towards laziness, towards cowardice, towards you know, jealousy and insecurity. We know that that's true. Yet when, when it, it comes to it, once the trouble starts, the tendency is to look at somebody else. We call that an ego defense. You know, if you're, if you're, you know, if you're continually thinking about what the other person is doing wrong, that, that's an ego defense. The healthiest, the healthiest thing that any of us can ever do is to look at ourselves and consider How am I behaving? What might— in what way might I be the, you know, the cause of the trouble that's in front of us? And if everybody did that, you'd probably see a vast proportion of healthy, you know, healthier marriages. But that, again, that's not the culture at the moment. It's outward-facing.

No, you're talking about accountability and responsibility for oneself and That's really tough when your ego's blown up, when you think you deserve more, when you think you should have, that something should just naturally come to you.

Like a baby. Like a baby.

You're exactly right. We are talking about immaturity.

We grow up on the outside, but not on the inside. That's, that's a major problem for our species right now. It's confusing. Alain de Botton spotted it. He said it clearly. What's confusing is that you're surrounded by what looks like adults. Physically we look adult, but we have all of these moving parts inside that are more like babies.

Absolutely right. I'm looking at some of the comments here. Um, this is why some of those women will play the relationship wheel, start it, dive in deep, blow it up, and then try again, just thinking it should naturally work out. That is a pipe dream. Um, yeah, some women, to be fair, some people absolutely do do that, get into a relationship. Um, it would seem at the— at a core kind of animalistic level, it seems like we as human beings are somewhat wired for serial monogamy. Like, it's, I fell in love with this person and I've been— I've been with them, and then things just naturally kind of fade, and then you're like, oh well, I guess we're done here, and you move on to the next one. But when, uh, you take on something like long-term monogamy and marriage, that's where you set aside those tendencies. And for a lot of men that I talk to, the tendency is, I'm gonna screw the woman at work, the young secretary, or what else. You obviously don't do that because you have, you know, you redirect that desire towards wife. You're committed to wife. And it just seems like— maybe I'm a little biased in this— that that has been hammered into the heads of men, hell, since I was a little kid. You know, you have that desire, it's bad, bad, bad. A lot of sexual shame. Don't you dare have that desire for somebody else. Redirect it towards the one that's fine. And, um, I, I can see maybe it's a societal pushback or whatever on the ladies' part where not so much of a message— again, harkening back to my previous point, a lot of messaging out there is if you're not feeling those feelings and if you don't have that connection at that visceral level with your man at all times, something must be wrong. And then to your point, well, what's wrong? It's got to be him. It's got to be the other. It's got to be the— maybe the institution of marriage in general. Maybe it's bad. Maybe and on and on and on. But no, what we eventually come to is the point of, no, it's, it's all you, buddy, or gal, or whatever. You got stuff you need to work on.

Time to grow up.

You need to grow up. I love it. Yeah, that's something I don't say much in my material, is maturity, growing up. This is something—

yeah, we don't talk about it enough, Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer. We're not talking about it. We're not. And it's, it's a major problem. And it's like, we understand attachment theory, that's become so popular now. Everybody's an expert in attachment, but nobody seems to understand that an attachment Attachment dysfunctions means that you've— that you have— you're suffering from an arrested development, or a huge amount. It's not just one thing, it's that you've, you've not properly matured. And that, that, you know, throwing one relationship up in, you know, in favor of another is a, is a classic case of immaturity. But being a bit harsh today, aren't I?

We, we have— no, you're absolutely— we have some people though Here's a question for you. Do you believe, Laura, that monogamy is the pinnacle or the end goal for everyone, or it should be? Or are there some people out there that we should say, yeah, it's probably not for you, buddy, maybe you need to continue being, you know, jumping from girlfriend to girlfriend, that's fine, that's for you, just have fun with that and stay out of the marriage thing because that could be, could be a chaotic and not healthy thing for you?

I think if you've had kids I think, you know, that there's a— there's a— because it's the— that a healthy, sane, secure, mature relationship between two parents is the— is the greatest thing you can give children. You know, what we know is that children raised in a warm, stable genuinely loving home will, will be a gift to the world. We know that. So in terms of just natural order, I like to think about what's in, you know, what seems to be, you know, for nature and in line with nature. I think that, that, that is obvious to me, that if that, that's what we ought to be striving for. Um, maybe not so much if you've not had children, because you're not going to devastate an innocent you know, a, an innocent human being. I don't know. And I know it's this kind of— I know I'm being a bit of an, of, you know, I'm focusing on the ideal. Uh, ultimately it's not for me to decide. I mean, we, we're— that's one of the, the, the, I guess, the, the gifts of, of life, isn't it? It's that you're— we're each free to choose. But certainly once you've had children, your, your, your job is to do is to create a stable, a stable base for them to, to exist from. And, and that, that, you know, you can't hurt one another without, without indirectly hurting your children. So at that point, it's not all about you, is it? So I don't know, if you've already done that, then I would say that you, you're, you know, you, you have a responsibility to, to the children, you know.

So, so yeah, but, but aside from that one of the epiphanies that comes with maturity is there is something bigger than you, buddy. There is. And for many of us, that comes in the form of a family or your community or something like that, that you, you know, aspire to inspire, that you aspire to do good by, to set an example for. That is something that is really hammered into a lot of men, is be a good role model for your son and your daughters and so forth by virtue of your behavior. And that may mean a lot of In a lot of ways, it may mean, number one, work on a marriage because you're married to a good woman. You guys just need to get your head out of your butts and, and get back to work on each other and show these kids what a real marriage is all about, how you overcome. And then again, for some of you, I've heard those horror stories where it's the worst of the worst, and I say, buddy, you need to get the hell out of Dodge. Um, and how do you know the difference? For a lot of guys, they have a difficult time knowing the difference, and I think it comes from, again, community, peers, therapy, all that good stuff, getting outside opinions on things and trying like hell to make it work. And if it doesn't, it doesn't, but at least you can say you tried. That's where I see a lot of guys are really struggling with. Um, we have— we've had a lot of comments here. Somebody mentioned the whole neurodivergent thing. That's something I see quite a bit. A lot of guys on the autism spectrum have a difficult time with social cues and knowing what's right and what's not right, and is this normal or not normal. And that's where a lot of outside help comes in, where somebody puts their arm around you and says, buddy, no, that's not healthy. And what you're doing is not so good, and go in this direction instead. And they really appreciate that. They need a lot of guidance in that way.

Um, uh, somebody says, before you move on, one of the things that I enjoyed, um, learning recently was that apparently— I have not done this myself— but when you study the, the sort of rise and fall of civilizations, apparently what comes before the fall of civilizations generally is that we give up on monogamy. So they talk about the, the, the, the fall coming from within, not from a threat outside. Generally, it's, it's— there's something about monogamy that stabilizes the individual. And believe it or not, um, we're more creative when we have, when we have that. There's something about the stability of the, the relationship with one, that unity, that, that frees us to be creative. Which is absolutely— if you study attachment theory, that's what you'll see. It's like you get to self-actualization as a result of all of these these primal needs being in place. So that fits with the collective as well. So, you know, back to, but just back to your earlier question about, you know, is it right for everybody? I'd say, I don't know if it's just right for the individual. I think it might be right for us on a profound level as a collective. We don't seem to do well when we mess around with that thing.

It's interesting. It's counterintuitive, but you're all right. We've seen it generation after generation. The more constraints we have on ourselves a certain way, the more we, we find a way to blossom and to expand ourselves intellectually, emotionally, and so forth at a deeper level, as opposed to wide open, everything goes, hedonism, all hell breaks loose, all kinds of chaos ensues. We see it again, it's true, on the individual level, at a very micro level. Sounds kind of silly, but I see it in terms of we have people that are like, our relationship is sexually very boring. Um, she's not into it anymore. I wish it was more exciting, and somebody came up with the idea of maybe opening a marriage or maybe doing something like swinging or something like that, which sounds titillating and fun, but I don't know what the stats are exactly. I saw one that said 92% of those relationships end up in splitsville, divorce, separation. So what, what most of those stories I hear start off as fireworks, it was awesome, ends with Oh shit, that just didn't go well. All kinds of chaos ensues. She fell in love with somebody else, he fell in love with somebody else, and all kinds of whatever. And it just shows like, yeah, maybe we should go back to the old boring way it was. Are we kind of going in a full circle here, Laura, where the— where the conservative, super restrictive types right? Do we need a lot of restraints on ourselves as human beings, or else we just become little crazy little monkeys?

Well, I just think there's a lot to be said for dignity, you know, that there is— there is— if I think of what I want for my son, I hope that he— that he has— he has a level of self-restraint, you know, that he— that he— that he does hold himself in check and that he doesn't do too much of anything damaging. And if I'd want that for him, then I'd want that for— for the rest of humanity, you know. It just doesn't seem to go very well when we— when we throw caution to the wind and— and give in to those sort of urges. I think that stuff needs to be— it just does seem to be true, whether we like it or not. It just doesn't— yeah, it does look like, again, that there is a natural order to these things, Ralph, that there are— there's a way of living that seems to— there's a way of living that seems to create well-being, and there are ways that you can live that cause something else. Now, the truth is that you need to work this stuff out for yourself. I mean, I'm I'm a massive— that's a sign of maturity, isn't it, that you can, you know, have, have 3 bottles of wine and see, see how your— the next day goes. You know, eat a load of, of McDonald's over the, over the course of a week and see how depressed you're gonna feel. You know, you have to work this stuff out for yourself. Yeah. And that, for me, it's all been trial and error. When I— you know, all I can tell you is that my marriage has been, it's been probably one of the, the single most powerful, uh, stabilizing, um, aspects of my entire existence. From all of— from that has come so much great health. So I, I'm clearly not, um— and people talk about polyamory and I just think, yeah, whatever. Yeah, no thanks.

God, no, not for you. No, no, no, no, no, no, not for me either. Um, no, I get it. I see where it comes from at a very visceral, basic level, addressing that disconnection. But I see down the line what that would result in for me and from what I've seen from others. But again, let's be fair. There are some that are like, I've been doing it for 20, 30+ years, and it's been fine. Great. I think you're an outlier, but good for you. You found the thing. If you're both on board with it, who am I to say, "Bad, don't do that"? But to say that's probably OK for the most would be, I think, disingenuous. Also, what I think is disingenuous is to say everyone at any point in their life is ready to get married and have kids. That is something that was pushed on me in my culture as a kiddo. Hey, you're 22 years old, you're out of college, why aren't you married yet and making babies? You know, you know, you could be like, I'm not quite ready yet. You'll never be quite ready. You better get started now. I can see how that's based in a lot of biology there. A lot of young ladies better get started now with the process before you get old and you can't have kids anymore. I get that. But I know plenty of men that I talk to that are— they describe their wife to me and she's a mess, her family's a mess, everything's been a mess since day one, blah blah blah blah. And he's really selling me on the fact of this woman should have never been my wife. And I'm like, so why'd you marry her? Obviously there was something good at some point, right? And I hate to— I hate to say it, but the majority of men that I talk to say something along the lines of, it's just what you do. I mean, she was my girlfriend. Got along okay. I mean, she was all right, I guess. And you just get married and have kids. It's just what you do. There was no, like, big plan, big push, big, you know, really good emotional connection or whatever it may be. It was just like a— it's just a given, right?

Again, though, I wonder about— I wonder about what might be the attachment story there, because if you've raised— if you've raised your children quite well, you will have encouraged them to to consider carefully their own thoughts and feelings on things. You know, they'll have a sense of inner authority. And I think, I think a lot of the problems that I'm seeing is that, you know, I'm treating a lot of men, um, I have to say, men who, who, who don't seem to have that going on so much. As you know, that, that sort of 'I'm afraid of conflict' is a, is a, is a sign that there's real problems there. You know, it's not, it's It's not mature to be so afraid of conflict that you don't ever say anything difficult for fear of the consequences. I mean, that's concerning. So yeah, I think a conscientious, well-raised individual will be considering the choice they're about to make for their lifelong partner very carefully. And that will be deep down because because they've, they've witnessed something very healthy firsthand between their parents.

There you go. That's the big thing. Yeah. Did you sit back and watch mom and dad? Were they a loving couple that got through conflict and so forth? Majority of men that I talked to say no, not at all. They were very dysfunctional marriage, and that's what I saw, and that's the little actions that I took that I learned from and I use in my marriage, and that's what my wife uses for her our marriage as well based upon what she saw. And there we go, and away we go. But it's funny you're talking about that, having that introspection and knowing yourself well and asking yourself those questions is a very mature thing. And dare I say that doesn't come to the average 20-year-old.

Healthy. It's a healthy thing. You know, somebody who has been loved will have been encouraged to, yes, to connect with how they feel about things. Do I like this person? Do I feel safe? Do I feel cared about? How does she show up? 'How does he treat me when we go— when we went on our first dates? Is he respectful? Is he—' You know, it's so— I think so many people just don't— they don't really have too much of an attachment to their own feelings, so they can't make sense of the world because they don't know that they're so disconnected from that information. It's a really sad story.

There was a young lady who went viral here recently in a video saying, um, she was, I think, in her 30s, and she's like, you know, I sat and did the math, and if I want to— and this is how she laid it out in her words, if I remember right— if I want to date around to find the right man, that's going to take so many months or years. And then if I'm with him, we need to go through a courtship process to make sure that we're right for each other. That's going to take 2 or 3 years. And then we get married. She goes, I don't want to have kids right away. I want to have a honeymoon period, get to know each other and travel and have fun. So that's another 2 or 3 years. He's like, I've done the math. I should have got started on this back in my early 20s.

It's like almost too late for me now.

That's totally right. That kind of butts heads with the getting to know yourself and maturity and everything else. And this is where community and a good family comes in and kind of fills in the gaps there. And unfortunately, a lot of us don't have that.

So I feel sorry for all the people. Ideally, a culture, Ralph, a culture that's saying, you know, think about what your priorities are going to be. You know, when I was young, back in the dark ages that, that it wasn't— career still wasn't really what women were doing, thank goodness. I mean, I was, I was, you know, my focus was, was marriage and children. Yeah, I don't know, the cult— I think the culture's convincing everybody, you know, to focus on doing the wrong things, to be, to be completely honest. And it's not that I'm saying we shouldn't have careers that we enjoy, but I just don't think a good career career is going to enrich your life like a, like a, a family. I just, I just don't think, I just don't think that's— I think it's a lie. I think, yeah.

I heard a comedian on a podcast the other day say that, uh, he did a joke. I think it was somewhere Saudi Arabia or somewhere, he was elsewhere, and he did a joke about old people in a nursing home, and everything was dead quiet because they didn't understand the concept of sending your older family member away to a nursing home He was later told, we don't do that in our country. In our country, we were being— Grandma, Grandpa in the house with us. They have a room in the home and they, and they live with us until they die, basically, because we return the favor. That's how they took care of us when we were little. We return the favor later. That's a foreign concept. And a lot of us, and a lot of us in our world are like, oh, I don't want mom live with me. You're kidding. All this resentment towards my mom and everything else. And I— this is selfish time. This is me and my career time, of my family time. I don't have time to take care of them. They didn't take care of me. And on and on and on. That's sad. But that's what I hear more often than not in my world.

Same, same. It's the— but again, it's the attachment gone wrong the other end, isn't it? You know, that mom didn't take— they didn't take care of me, so why would I want to take care of them? It's the same dysfunction just spread out over, over that, that phase of life. It's all so sad. It's so sad. We're so split, so isolated. It's, it's— and we're being convinced that, you know, the attachment is kind of icky. People use that word, the phrase, the ick, so much now. I find it revolting. It's, it's like, people don't realize, you know, if you— if being close to people makes you feel uncomfortable like that, something wrong, something's gone wrong for you. It's not that being— it's not that having close connections with people is unhealthy. That's nuts that that's happened. You know, that now we, we talk about independence, you know, like it's the be-all and end-all, and we've forgotten how absolutely central to a life well-lived attachment and connection and closeness is.

It's very sad. I think we're going to see— this is just anecdotal— a rise in women being diagnosed with much more avoidant attachment, teetering on very selfish, narcissistic, kind of not maternal however you want to categorize that. I see that going up and up. You're a career woman, you're whatever. Um, is that a result of just economics? I think that plays a big part of it. Women need to take care of themselves, can't depend on a man anymore. It takes so much money to take care of yourself. It's going to steer people in a big direction. And I think what brought that to my mind was your, your mention of the ick. The ick is basically when we see that a lot of avoidant women saying, when I see vulnerability and humanness in my male partner, it's like, duh. I don't like that. And a healthy person says, oh, that's cute. An unhealthy person says, uh. And it gets silly when you watch these little videos online. And I've got caught in the, you know, rabbit hole of that where these young women are like, I hate it when— and you just go, come on. And one was like, when he's— and some of it was like typically what you think of as like, oh, sweet behavior. Like, when I see him changing a baby's diaper, it gives me the ick. When I see him playing with little kids in the playground, it gives me the ick. I think he's kind of creepy or whatever it is. So it's— there you go, that's what it is. It's, it's flat-out contempt, and that's how it's showing itself in those little repulsive moments. Not good, guys. And what unfortunately, what a lot of your more, um, dare we say immature guys, susceptible guys, um, when they see that, they think that's all women and they think that's everyone. And so what they do is they start demonizing all women and saying they're all like that, they're all avoidant narcissistic assholes. And I say, guys, no. Number one, that's just what you see on your algorithm. And number two, that's kind of who you attract to you based upon all your background and all your relationship trouble. Your search history. All your search history.

I think this, Ralph. I think show me your search history and I'll show you the man. I think this often I've thought about this. It's like, because you could see my search history honestly any day of the week. It's a really cool barometer of sort of how you're doing. Generally, I think, as a human being. I hate to think, like, could the average— like, I'd love to see the stats, yeah, how many people nowadays would feel comfortable for, for the average person to see their search history. It's, um, anyway, I digress, but it's, it's one of the things that perplexes me. I think it's sad. It's sad. We're so—

I don't know, it's weird out there. I'm gonna start reading some random comments here. We don't necessarily have to, uh, comment on them, but I want to just give them some the air here. We got John saying, I may be too old for this chat, my wife is not an intimate person. I'm sorry, John, that sucks.

Oh yeah, sorry, John.

And then some people commenting on the young lady realizing her lifetime line. That's something a lot of men jump on. They like to point at women and say, haha, you've missed your chance at a relationship. It's not funny, guys. I mean, these women are human beings too. I mean, can you imagine? Put yourself— try to empathize with the young lady who's like, must get career, must graduate, must go to grad school, or maybe get my PhD. Now I'm 28 years old, now I gotta find a man, and I really I really want to start my own family and have my own little daughter or son, and shit. Oh, why demonize a woman like that? You know, empathize with her and say, yeah, I get it, that sucks. And now what, she has to speed the whole process of finding a mate and finding somebody and just like, hey, he's good enough? It's like, ugh, that's not a good start of a relationship.

You're part of the problem, aren't you? Because it's the divide between the sexes, and it's— that's a sad, sad modern twist, isn't it, that both both of the sexes have such little faith in one another.

And then we have— and here we go, we got Mr. I Apologize HA4D on, uh, YouTube. He does what a lot of guys do. Um, we have Poor John saying my wife is not an intimate person, and Mr. HA4D says she's not intimate with you. The insinuation being any woman that eschews any kind of intimacy with her husband must be cheating. And Laura, I'm gonna speak for myself. I see you shaking your head. Um, from what I've seen, no, that's not the case. We men tend to have a very difficult time understanding that there are some people out there in the world who don't really think about sex all that much. Yeah, it's not really— no way. It's like, huh, that can't be, they must be getting it elsewhere. No, they're too worried about a bunch of other stuff.

The male equivalent of this is that my, my little boy went on his first Army Cadet Camp relatively recently, and I said to him before he went, hey, I'm going to message you a few times, but don't worry, you don't need to message me back. I don't want you to be fretting. And he looked at me and he said, what? I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean, Mom. I literally won't be doing that. It was so interesting. It was the equivalent, you see. No, no. Whereas a woman that would, you know, she'd understand what I'd meant. Any woman would understand what I'd meant by that.

I came up with this little gem the other day during one of our live meetings where men were trying to wrap their heads around a— for lack of a better term, asexual person, like their avoidant wife, who just doesn't seem to ever think about it, talk about it. She has no fantasy, she doesn't masturbate, none of that. And he's just like, what? I don't get it. And, um, and then at the same time, these women are like, when the man says, I want a divorce, she's like, over sex? Seriously? Yeah, I know. And I was like, well, it's similar. Like, all of a sudden, what if you're— what if you're, you know, your partner said eating fruits and vegetables are very important to me, and you're like, I don't really like fruits and vegetables, I'm more of a meat and potatoes kind of guy, and they go, I'm sorry, we're gonna have to break up, you're gonna say, over fruits and vegetables? That's kind of the same kind of— that's the way they look at it. Like, it's such a nothing thing to them. Like, over sex? Really? That's how a lot of our people in our lives, unfortunately, that we attract to us, that's how they think about that kind of thing. And no, they're not screwing— running around screwing half the town.

Yeah, but again, it's attachment— it's attachment problems, isn't it? Whether you don't— whether you don't want to sort of share, you don't want to have sort of— you don't want to share your sexuality, or whether you don't want to share emotionally, this is all evidence of a deep-rooted attachment problem, you know. And I think, I think, I think myself included, I didn't understand the scope of, of how many of us lovely human beings have had really sad you know, sad beginnings. You know, we weren't held enough. Our parents didn't help us make sense of our emotions, so we had to become over, over fretful or super, super shut down. Um, so that, that's, that's what that is for me, you know. Um, it's, it's attachment. It's an attachment dysfunction. It's the calling cry, the many sounds that that makes.

Unfortunately, to piggyback on that, if you are a very codependent person and you see that person who has a lot of chaos in their background and is broken at some level, for lack of a better word, a lot of us codependent types go, oh, somebody I can fix, somebody I can jump to attention. And even though we haven't touched each other in 20 years, I know that deep down there's a good person in there somewhere. I just need to find it. And we need maybe 20 more years, we'll eventually figure it out. And then you're on your deathbed going, well, shit, that was the That's a big waste of time. A big, difficult thing for a lot of us to come to terms with is we can't fix everybody. And it's not our job to. They have to be the one to say, "I need a little help here." And you may, as their spouse, just stay out of that completely and just say, "I wish you all the best here. You know, take care of yourself." And that goes for men and women alike. Whether it's substance abuse, you know, you may eventually say, "I can't support you anymore. You go to rehab or we're divorced." Or maybe a person has some kind of attachment issues that causes them to have have very dysfunctional relationships down the line. You may eventually say, you need to go get help with that, I'm, I'm done here. Um, that's sad, but that's the— what a lot of guys come to eventually, to that point. And what's ironic is sometimes that's the turning point when you let them go, so to speak, where they go, okay, he's for real, I do need to get help with this. And that could be the real turning point and have some real momentum to you guys getting back together and getting the relationship that you should have. You never know, but sometimes you got to get to that point, that rock bottom moment. And it's difficult for a lot of guys. Um, you can't mold someone into what you want them to be, says Mr. Gator. Very well put. Uh, my advice is do not marry. Uh, I did not listen. Leave women with children alone. Oh, so you were with a single mother, two children? Well, okay, if that's your take. But there are plenty of awesome people out there who have children from previous marriages that are, you know, waiting for a good mate, and they've done all their work, and they're good secure people people. So let's not paint them with too broad of a brush here, but I get it, guys. Um, oh, we got Mr. Faulty22 from YouTube says, um, I have so much I want to say to both of you and I just can't distill it down here. Just thank you both for being there in my toughest times. This has been one of the darkest 2 years of my life. Oh, sorry to hear that, my man. Oh dear, Mr. Faulty. It reminds me of Fawlty Towers. Do you remember Fawlty Towers?

The British in my blood. Is it Manuel?

For some reason, Manuel, the, uh, the, uh, Spanish. That brings back memories. Um, you know, I'm gonna end on this because we have like 15 minutes or so. I assume you have to leave the top of the hour. I do.

I gotta coach. Yep, yep. I'm happy to go when you're done, Ralph.

Very good. I'm going to end with this because this is a hot button issue. That I'm going to cut this into a clip. And Laura, prepare yourself, it's going to get a lot of, uh, it's going to get a lot of comments and likes and watches. Okay, here goes. Okay, um, there is a, um, one piece of content or one subject matter that gets women angrier than anything I've ever seen, and that is this: a lot of men after they have children feel forgotten in a relationship. They feel like their job as husband is done, and now they are father, caretaker, baby butt wiper, whatever it may be. And unfortunately, that persists for the next 18 years, and they never reconnect with their wife as husband again. And those men say, I feel sad, I feel confused, I feel forgotten. And whenever I point that out, Laura, what I would hope would be a reaction from some ladies saying, I get it, a lot of my mental energy goes towards the children They're the top of the mind. That's how I'm wired as a human female is take care of babies. So please bear with me as I do this. I will be cognizant of that, and I will do a better job to involve my husband more so and make sure that I show him affection and love because I know that's important because he's a fellow human being. But no, oh my goodness, Laura, the reaction I get, let's be fair, the people that comment is, you big effing baby. Don't you realize that our lives have changed? That's not who we are anymore. Get over yourself. Perhaps if you changed more diapers, perhaps if you did more bottle feeding, perhaps if you just sucked it up and did more chores and helped out around the house instead of pouting and wanting mommy to fix your boo-boo, maybe then I'll have energy for you. That's the predominant thought. And anytime I have any kind of material that talks about that subject, it just takes off. It is shared. The feminist groups pick it up and say, see, this is what we have to deal with. A lot of men pick it up and go, see, this is what we have to deal with. I've been trying to tell my wife this for years it doesn't get across. So I want to hear your, your thoughts on it.

No pressure. What are my thoughts on that? Well, that's when Ross and I galvanized our marriage. Um, interestingly, I, I get, I get what happens. I mean, obviously you, you do transition into a new, new phase of life, um, and that is not a small thing to go from sort of maiden to mother. To go from, you know, free independent youth to, to mother is a, is a major life transition. But if you think about, again, you've got to keep the enterprise, the, the, the, the whole, the, the health of the whole system in view. Um, and the best thing that we can give our children is a warm, sane, and stable marriage. We know that a child who has both a mother and a father who are, who are as well as a mother and a father can be, um, that's the best gift that we can offer our kids. So if we, if we, if either man or wife is acting, you know, against the well-being for want of a better word, of the, of the other, of the other, then it's not just you that loses, it's the kids. The kids are the ones that suffer as well. So I don't think that's sane. I don't think it's healthy, you know, the, the, the— and there's something absolutely beautiful about coming out of that phase as lovers, you know, specifically lovers. If you can hold on to that aspect of your marriage, you keep, you keep a part of your own youth as well. There's something that it's just for you too, you know, um, and I think that's healthier for the children. People who, people who don't have a really strong bond with their, with their spouse tend to focus too much on the kids, which is a lot of pressure for a kid. You know, if mummy is obsessed with the health of the kid, we know that that's bad. You can Google the archetype, the archetypal devouring mother. She's an interesting beast. So there's something very— again, it's in line with a natural order that keeps you in a, in a healthier spot, I would argue, if you save something for yourselves. You keep and you— and it's creative and it takes effort, but it holds some incredible structure in place when it's— it's— you still have that going for you as a couple. You, you don't need to feed off the kids for positivity. Obviously you get that from the kids. There is, you know, that's a But it's a separate thing. I would argue it's just a healthier— it's a healthier, more stable, uh, structure to have, to have the marriage as, as something that you've— that you nurture and keep alive separately to, to the kids. Um, because it means that, it means that the kids can just be— they can be kids. They don't need to worry about you and Dad, and they will You know, if there's tension between you and your spouse, we like to think that kids don't pick up on that. Well, that's nonsense. We are an exquisitely sensitive species. You know, if there's trouble between mum and dad, the children are going to suffer, make no mistake. So I reject it entirely, Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer. I feel so passionately about it, to the point that that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. I call bullshit. It's bullshit. It. That's what I think the best gift we can offer our children is, that we keep that, that relationship in place so that, so that the kids are free to just be children, you know. And here's the other thing, that one of the things that hammered it home, all the ages that Charlie, my son, has ever been, when Russell and I embrace, when we make jokes, when they're, you know, when there's levity, which they're— which there often is, he, he, you can see his reaction. It is, it's, you can see secure attachment. That's what you can see. You can see that it's, there's nothing delights him more. There's nothing more security building than mum and dad are okay. Mum and dad are laughing, you know. And I, I swear, I'm not sure that you can have that if you're not lovers. I just don't— I'm not— I'm just not convinced that that can be done unless both of you aren't interested in sex. You're both asexual, basically. Yeah, yeah, totally. So, so I don't know, I could say more. In fact, I could talk and talk and talk about it, Ralph, because it ultimately is— it's the thing— it's like the thing that I'm most passionate about. And I'm— I, I'd be interested, you know, somebody convince me otherwise, but but I don't think, I don't think it's possible.

What's interesting is how you framed it in terms of the family, more specifically the kids, and the impact on them. In fact, that is something that a lot of therapists say to men, which to men is ironically a little heartbreaking, which is if you want to revive the romance, physical intimacy, intimacy in general between you and the wife, what often works, quote unquote, for that is to go to wife and say 'Hey, do you realize the example you're setting for the kids? Do you want your kids to have a relationship like ours? Because that's what's going to happen here. Don't you see? They're seeing us not touching, not talking, not anything, and it's not good for them.' That sometimes gets the wife to go, 'Oh shit, you're right. Maybe we do need to go talk to somebody about this.' Why that is heartbreaking to so many men is that men erroneously think, 'I was hoping that my wife would just organically want me for me as her husband, and that would be enough to re-energize her and get her coming back to center and more to us. Just to say, I miss my hubby, you know, I love Ralph, he's, he's a good guy, and I, I love him and everything he's ever done. We have a good history together. Oh man, I've, I've kind of gone astray and kind of got into mom mode here and went a little nutty. Let me go back to husband because I love him. And maybe husband said something that makes her go, oh yeah, you're right. But unfortunately, no, from what we've seen We have a hard time understanding what I call mom mode of the brain for your average gal. No, it takes a little bit more to jostle them. And usually to jostle them, what it is is just exactly what you described. Don't you realize the effect this is going to have on the kiddos? And it ain't good. And that's how we get the ball rolling.

I want to add something. So, so there's some— when I said about get the— if you, if you have the courage and the, the, I would say, maturity and wisdom to not give up on set that, that you, that you— there's a— then you're not giving up on an aspect of yourself. And I'm talking specifically to women here. So there's something about holding on to your own sexuality as, as a part of yourself. And, um, so, so you, you keep that for yourself. It's an amazing thing to not let go of, you know, to be sexual, to be sexually healthy through the eras of life, arguably is more fun and, you know, more healthy. You're you know, you're going to experience, well, a ton of, a ton of positive stuff that you're not going to experience if you give up on it. And the other thing that I would like to just add to that, because me and Ross were talking about this the other day, is if you— as a— what, what, what is incorporated in your choice to remain sexual, um, through, through the eras of life is your connection to the masculine. Because the feminine, arguably, the feminine craves the masculine. So it's not that you— is it? That's— so that's his, his wish comes true too, because she, if she's not given up on herself, she's, she's not going to give up on him either. And arguably we're talking about heterosexual sexuality, but, but, but you could argue that that's there within, within the other forms of sexuality too. So for me, again, it's not— it's the natural order. It's It's, we are sexual, keep it for yourself. And as a woman, if you're healthy, you don't hate men. You don't want bad things for men. You certainly don't want that for the father of your own children. That is anti-life. It goes against the natural order. So again, bullshit, Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer. That's what I call on all of that. I just know I reject it.

End of clip right there. That was— guys, you're going to see that one later online, probably a few million times. Good. Thank you so very much. And I have put in the chat and in the comments here a link to our men's group. Guys, um, we talk about this kind of stuff— oh man, did I mess up on that? Let me try that again. We, we talk about this stuff all the time in our Brotherhood group. It's a private support community for men. Uh, you go to help4men.com/join, um, to join. Let me put up the banner here as well before I forget. There we go. Uh, help4men.com/join. Uh, we have a lot of guys, most of whom, from what I've learned over the years of doing this, are anxiously attached, if we want to use that vernacular and that label for talking about our relationship woes. We're a bunch of anxiously attached men who somehow found avoidant women in our lives, and we're having a really difficult time coming to terms with it— how to fix it, how to overcome the divorce that inevitably happened, the infidelities, whatever it may be. And, um, we talk about this stuff all day, every day in private discussion forums. We have live Zoom meetings very frequently. We just had 6 this week alone— or last week, excuse me. I think we're going to have 8 of them here this week. Myself, I host them as well as other guys on the team, and we get together in person. Yes, we meet together in person in the US as well as in Australia. And I got all my books at no additional charge, courses, coaching, you name it. Check it out, thebrotherhoodhelpformen.com/join. And once again, don't be— or don't, um, don't forget rather to go to laurahow.com. Laurahow.com. And how is spelled just like you, you think it is, H-O-W. Laurahow.com. And learn more about our lovely guest here today. And check her out, Laura Howe, on YouTube and Facebook. We need to grow Laura's Facebook audience as well as X. You're on Twitter as well, right? X, excuse me.

I don't know. Russell does all of that. I'm all over the place, but I don't know where I am.

You're doing it right.

I just know that I'm getting further, further afield because nobody— you're getting the cold shoulder from the women now.

No, you're doing something right. That's what my supervisor says. And then we got Kerr on YouTube saying, do any women listen to you? What's your, uh, audience there?

Like 95% men? 5%. 5% women, but growing. Just, we, we started a new club. We started a Good Wife Club and Good Husband Club, and interestingly, we've got nearly 40 chaps and there's just over 10 women. So, um, I'm, I'm really hoping that we'll balance things out, but we're only a year in the making, so, so bear with this. Um, uh, maybe women just need a little bit more convincing that I'm not out to get them and ruin the world. There you go.

Very good, guys. Thank you so very much for joining us today. And Miss Laura, thank you once again. That was a quick hour.

That went by fast. It was so quick. It always is, Ralph. It's such a pleasure.

Thanks for having me. Thank you for everything you do. And guys, thank you so very much for joining us today. Appreciate it. helpformen.com/join. And Laura, once again, again. Thanks a bunch. We'll catch you guys on the next one. Have a good one. Ciao. Toodaloo.