Divorce Truths Men Need to Hear (Before It’s Too Late) - With Karen McMahon (Journey Beyond Divorce)

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. And with me today is Miss Karen, as I said. Karen, who the heck are you? What do you do?

I am, uh, I've been a divorce coach for the last 16 years. Uh, I emerged from a very high-conflict divorce and felt like my purpose at the time, I was selling commercial printing and I was like, there has to be something more important to do. And I found my way into life coaching. And for the last, um, 16 years I've been helping men and women navigate the before, during, and after stages of divorce, doing a lot of work around, um, contentious divorce. Struggles that people have. And, and I have a team of coaches coast to coast, and so we support— we're one of the few divorce coaching teams out there that support men, female teams that support men as much as women. So we have a pretty much 50/50 client base. I love coming on shows like yours and just sharing any guidance and wisdom that I can, that I can offer.

Very interesting. So as a guy with the social media handle and accounts called Dad Starting Over. You can imagine I have lots of guys starting over, and a lot of them go through a contentious divorce, to say the least. I mean, and I talk to these guys on a daily basis, one-on-one, and I am left sometimes wide-eyed going, I need to go lay down after hearing some of these stories, because it can get nasty. As I— you're— you know better than anybody how awful these things can get. Do you see— is there a definite split as far as the themes of awfulness are concerned with A man comes into you, comes to you and says, I need some help, comes to your team versus a woman. Is there almost like, oh, here we go again, another one of these man stories, another one of these woman stories, or are they split like that?

You know, I think when you're coming out of a high-conflict marriage, I think oftentimes my women are more afraid for their own safety, whereas my men are almost more afraid for their wife. So they're— they've— there's this interesting caretaking piece where it's like, I'm staying because she can't make it on her own. I'm like— so both parties are, you know, very codependent, very conflict-avoidant. But the men seem— I would say largely seem very concerned about the wife's ability to manage afterwards. And They're very concerned for their children, but oftentimes my men have been so accused and belittled and blamed about being a bad parent because their division of labor has been out in the workforce working. So they have less confidence in advocating for what they know is best for the kids.

Interesting. Going back to the, uh, I'm worried about my soon-to-be ex. I'm so glad you said that. I hear that all the time, and it's so interesting that— and it is a— it is definitely a trait of their codependency in the men, that nice guy syndrome that you and I talked about on your podcast. Um, is I— you'll hear these horror stories from these men. Listen to this horrible thing my soon-to-be ex did to me, and you're just like, oh my goodness, dude, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Yeah, and that ain't the half of it. Then she did this, this, and this, followed up by but I'm telling you, man, I don't know how she's going to make it. I don't, I don't think, I don't think she has thought this through. I don't think that. And then it goes into, so therefore what I'm going to do is be really nice and over the top and giving. And if she— you know what, Ralph, I don't care. If she wants this and this, she can have it. If she wants to— and I'm always like, dude, I'm, I'm not saying be an a-hole here, but I'm saying is that you have rights, you know, legally and financially. Look out for yourself. Protect yourself. I know you want that's a mother to your children, and I'm glad you have feelings towards her and you care for her that way. You'll always have love in your heart somewhere for the mother to your children, but still, you gotta look out for yourself, dude.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, at the core of this is— yeah, and I come from a very high-conflict marriage and divorce, and it's like you lose your sense of self and you don't value yourself as much as you're valuing what that other person needs. And so it's very upside down, but because you've been in it for so long doing this It's normalized. And so when you cock your head and go, wait a second, they're like, what are you talking about? I'm a nice guy. I'm a good guy. I'm doing the right thing. And it's like, well, you're doing so the wrong thing for yourself. So, you know, how is that pattern working for you that you do the right thing for others and the wrong thing for yourself? And it's like, well, that would be selfish. And then the clarity between Let's take a look at what's selfish and what's actually self-caring, self-loving, vitally important, especially if you have children. Do you want to really teach them to be somebody else's doormat? Because that's what you're doing.

Do you find that the doormat behavior, to stick with that theme, more common in men than it is in the women that you work with overall?

No, no, I think that on both sides we've got doormats left and right all over the place. If we've fallen in love with, gotten involved in, and, you know, 6 to 40 years in relationship, there are various levels, and we, again, we get so used to it. And so I would not say that the men are more, it's just, it presents differently.

Yeah, I've often said to a lot of the guys that I talk to, I get occasionally women reach out to me and like, I like your perspective, Ralph, on this, here's my story as a woman just to give you the other side. And I say, what other side? You are saying the exact same thing I hear from men every single— all the stories are the same. It's just very codependent person with a very distant avoidant person and they're always chasing them. And then voilà, some infidelity or some— something breaks out that makes them go, what the hell? And then they continue chasing, they continue pursuing and trying to, uh, I'll get reassurance from the other person. And then what I see for the guys is the over-the-top, I will give her this, I will let her have the house, I will let her have, I will let her have, I will let her have, I'm worried about her, dude, she's going to be bankrupt, she's never worked a day in her life, and all this other stuff. And It can get nasty. And the guy's— you just hit the nail on the head. I don't want to be a selfish a-hole.

Yeah. Yeah. And so what you do is you negotiate from this place where instead of— I think what you and I guide people to do is let's expand your capacity to be uncomfortable because possibility lies on the other side of your comfort zone. So let's— and what happens with both men and women, but let's talk about the men right now, is, you know, men are, you know, roll up my sleeve and fix it, right? And this is something you can't fix. And it's very emotionally tumultuous. And men are not socialized or trained to swim in the waters of emotions, process them, communicate them, understand them, evaluate them. And so, so a successful— I deal with a lot of really successful men, and they're really successful in the world, but their capacity in this situation is very narrow. And so what do we do when we're out of capacity? We externalize and try and fix. And so giving her more money, backing off and not taking the kids as much as you know those kids are going to be better with you because she's unhinged, but you're going to back off because it's more comfortable giving in than holding that capacity and standing firm. And so these are all of these like really nuanced shifts that I find clients need to be able to, um, integrate with themselves almost and be— and stand firmly on who they now are willing to know that they are.

You are dropping some truth bombs there, sister. I love it. I mean, this is just the stuff I preach every day. Learn to be uncomfortable. It's okay. A common phrase I use with a lot of guys is you're not going to die. It's— you'll be fine. You'll be okay. And what a lot of guys like to hear, it sounds kind of counterintuitive, is you're going to go through hell, and it's, it's not going to be fun. And, uh, it's probably going to get a little worse before it gets better, if not a lot worse. But a lot of guys have this impression of, everyone is telling me that this— which to him feels very selfish— they always say it's the right thing to do, you know, to look out for yourself and legal and financial and everything else. But he says I, I've done the math in my head. I know what's going to happen next, and that doing the right thing is going to result in what? A whole bunch of drama and a whole bunch of negativity, and she is going to rain down on me with everything she has, and it's going to make me feel terrible and anxious, and I don't want to go there. It's like, yeah, just because you do the right thing does not mean it's going to result in just rainbow and sunshine. That's not how life works.

Yeah, and in fact, you know, One of the things that I think is so important is when you're in a divorce, you think, well, my attorney and the court are going to really help me. And the truth is, at the end of the day, if you don't learn how to set a boundary and if you don't learn how to prioritize your own needs, you can have all the laws and the best settlement in the world. You're not going to be able to hold anything. And so, so you'll be living under two separate roofs. You'll have a nice legal agreement. You'll have spent tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. And nothing will change. Your day-to-day and the interactions and the lack of boundaries is going to leave you and your kids in the exact same space, and that to me is unacceptable and heartbreaking.

Boundaries are huge. And, uh, to the Mr. Nice Guy, a common thing I will hear is he's a white— or he is an ex-husband, but as a husband he used to do an awful lot for the family unit, and a lot of that involved the typical manly stuff and, you know, fix this, fix that, cut this down, dig this. And so by virtue of there's so many years together, the ex-wife is like, oh, something big is broken in my new house and my new apartment and whatever. And she picks up the phone and calls the ex-husband, and, and that really pushes a button in him that says, oh, something I can fix. I can jump to attention and be the superhero. I can— in his, in his mind, he's like, I will show the kids just how awesome I am and how great I am, and they will think I'm an awesome father. And then unfortunately for a lot of the men I talk to, maybe then I'll prove my worth to her and we can get back together as a family. That's in back of his mind somewhere. And I, I talk about this often. I had a guy whose ex-wife cheated on him, left, the whole nine, all kinds of drama. And then she contacts him and says, there was the big storm last night and that giant tree in my backyard fell over, can you come and take it away? And he's like, because she knew that he has the chainsaw on the trailer and all this other stuff, and he jumped to attention and he went and did it. And I was like, I get it, you know. He's like, in his defense, he's like, what kind of a-hole would I be if I just said no? Even I have a chainsaw, of the trailer, I have the time, why wouldn't I do it? That's the mother to my children. I say, yeah, but there's also a part of you that needs to say, she's a big girl now, she's on her own, she's a single woman. This is part of life when things happen. You pick up the phone, call so-and-so tree repair.

Grown-ass woman. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I just had this exact same conversation last week and it was like something with the roof and I was like You know, there are so many platforms that she could call. She could look at the reviews. She's a grown-ass woman. She could make a decision. And you're making— when you do that, you're creating gray in an area with someone who's unhinged, with someone who a lot of women, um, you know, whatever disorders might be out there, women I think have more of the borderline personality than the narcissistic. It doesn't matter. When you do things like that, it falls into their black and white thinking, and, and that's bad. And you're thinking it's going one way, it's not going that way. And the bottom line is, if you've been doing for your wife for all of these years, it is really important that she learns to do it. Your ex-wife needs to learn how to do things on her own. Um, yeah, so it's, it's, I, it's a, it's a hard line I hold too. And, and I was like, you don't have to be snarky when you say it. Uh, but, but be firm. And, um, so my one client, he's like, she called me about this, and I said, what did you say? And he's gotten so much better. He said, well, thank you for sharing. I'm sure you'll be able to handle that. And I was like, yes, that's perfect.

I love it. That's awesome. It's a testimony to their codependency in that the way I have found to get through to men in those kind of situations is to say, think of it this way.

It's better for her.

It is. She needs to learn to do these things on her own. You're not going to be around— your ex-husband.

Yes.

And if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, she needs to know how to take care of these kind of things. And I know you used to do these things and she physically can't do them or whatever it may be, but it's kind of like the, the teenager that you're kind of teaching them to be on their own. And, Mom, how can I— Dad, you're like, you can handle it. You know, I told you how to do it. Just go ahead and do it on your own.

It's—

it sounds very paternalistic and silly, but It's the best analogy I can come up with.

Yeah, yeah. And, and it is, it's one of those things that, um, it— that's, that's on the lighter side of boundaries. And then, you know, for, for the big strong men listening, um, if you've been physically abused, we have a society— my dad was a 6-foot-2 barrel-chested New York City police officer. He was married to some type of psychopathic woman, and he was physically abused. And it's like, how, how do the police come to the front door and see Joe McMahon and this little woman and believe that Joe's the one who's been abused? And so it's so important to, um, to have someone like you to talk to, to be able to document and to share when there's emotional, mental, physical abuse, and to be able to take care of yourself. And one of my sayings is how you do something is how you do everything. So when you leave and your kids are behind, whichever kid reminds her most of you is going to need you to have boundaries because you're going to need to teach them how to have boundaries and a voice. And until the person divorcing that high-conflict woman, until you do all of that hard work, you can't pay it forward to your children and you The worst nightmare would be to watch them grow up and then to watch them go through the same thing that you went through. You can stop that now. And that's my passion, is the breaking of generational chains. And yeah, and that's how we do it. We do it by rolling up our sleeves, doing the hard work of being uncomfortable, growing, learning, healing, refining, and then paying it forward to our children.

It's, um, it's sad when I hear a lot of men and really dysfunctional relationships, and the question is, what keeps you around? And often the answer is, I had to endure a divorce as a kid, and I told myself years ago, I am never doing that to my kids. I don't care what's happening, I will work it out with my spouse no matter what. And unfortunately, you know, psychology being what it is, they announce that to their soon-to-be ex-spouse, I'm never leaving you no matter what. And like, oh, don't, don't say that to a dysfunctional person because they're like, yes, I get to do whatever I want to do. I can have my cake and eat it too, honey. I'm going out on a date tonight with another man. And he's just like, well, you told her you're not going to do anything, so I mean, what the hell do you expect? And, uh, but changing the gears here, it's— you brought something else to mind is how often do you see— oh, what's the word I'm looking for— enmeshment, or, or, um, where, where the one spouse treats their child like a surrogate spouse and they become in a very unhealthy relationship where your son becomes— knows every intimate detail of your ex-wife's life, and he's like her little boyfriend at home. Tells her— he— she tells him about work and her love life and everything else, and he comes back and tells Dad, and Dad's like, that's not healthy, that's not good, don't be doing that to our son. Do you see that often?

I, I see a lot of variations of that on both sides, right, with my, with my moms and dads. And I think that, um, It's one of the most dangerous things because you're, you're, you're growing a codependent child who's, who's also being like parentified. And it's just psychologically, it's confusing on so many different levels. And, you know, if we look at the children, conflict is much more damaging than divorce. Um, and having one stable, secure parent enables that child to really have a successful life. And so when these things are going on, that child is not just dealing with the conflict, they're dealing with the confusion. They're dealing with a position that they don't even understand and information that they should never know about. And then the question is, okay, if you are the other parent, what can you actually do about that? You can't tell— you can't— you can certainly call your ex and say, you shouldn't do that. You should stop doing that. And they'll hear wah, wah, wah, and they'll go and do whatever they want to do.

So yeah, yeah, it's sad. And, um, oh, so, so many things to— ways to take the conversation and different things that I've seen over the years. And the, the parentification, the meshment, or whatever you call it, is, is a huge part of it. Another big part of it is we see often guys come to me because their wife is going through some type of midlife crisis thing, is what we call it. So based upon all of her childhood baggage, it suddenly bubbled to the surface, and now mom is gone for days at a time, and mom now has a substance abuse problem and cheating. Oh, that's not even the beginning of it. So I tell you what gets a lot of guys to kind of— they kind of take pride in the fact that, you know what, now I am the stable force in these kids' lives. Now I get to be the example for them of how— what a good, sane, mentally healthy person does and how they how they conduct their life, and how I am focused on you kids. She may not be, but I am. You can feel safe in my arms. And that's a great thing, but it's a lot of pressure, and it's, it's exhausting because you're still working full-time, if not more than full-time, because now you're divorced and some of your income just went out. And now you maybe have to pay child support and alimony, or if you're one of the unfortunate SOBs, um, and now you're also the playing the part of mom and dad, kind of the healthy mom and dad. That's tough. And if any of you guys are watching this today and you can relate to that, let us know. Um, love to hear from you. In fact, we are open to any and all questions. Share your stories, guys. I love all the likes. Thank you so much. We got a lot joining us here today. We are live on Facebook on a couple accounts and YouTube and X, or Twitter as it used to be called. So thank you all so much for watching. Karen, before I forget, uh, where can these guys learn more about what it is that you do?

Oh, thanks. So Journey Beyond Divorce. I have a podcast. It's number 2 in the country, top 10 in the world for divorce podcasts. And journeybeyonddivorce.com is our website. So you can check us out. We have articles. I've got 450 episodes touching on virtually everything out there. So, so come and visit us.

I am putting that link here. Pardon me as I type journeybeyonddivorce.com. That will show up in the comments or in the chat on YouTube. So guys, check that out. I didn't realize your, your podcast was that huge. Congrats. That's tough to do.

Yeah. Well, um, it's 9 years old too. So, uh, yeah, I, I started early. It, um, and, uh, it's my passion is just, I, I do, I know you do a lot of solos. I do a tremendous amount of interviewing. I've interviewed most of the, uh, top experts in the country on everything from custody evaluation, attorney for the children, attachment style, what a narcissist is, how to deal with codependence, and on and on and on and on. So, um, it's a really— it's quite the plethora of, um, topics for someone who wants to educate themselves.

And as I told you before when we chatted, I seem to have tapped into the niche of anxiously attached men, or very codependent men, with very avoidant women. That seems to be my thing. I don't think it's a coincidence. That's, that's what I endured for a big chunk of my life. Um, but, uh, So a lot of the guys watching this are going to say, uh, yeah, been there, done that, or going through it. Unfortunately, guys, we would love to hear from you. And we got Jay on Facebook saying, good conversation, thanks guys. Well, thank you, Mr. Jay from Facebook, I appreciate it. Guys, don't be shy. We are here to take any and all questions or share your story, whatever you may have for us today. Or it can be on any topic you would like, but hopefully on the topic of divorce and starting over in life. You know, Karen, how much you want to share about your own personal story when you said you had a contentious divorce? What did you have to endure?

Yes, so I, I married late. I was 34 when I got married, so I figured I got it right. And, um, and 7 years later, we were really coming apart at the edges. So I married somebody who, uh, had a lot of anger management issues. I was madly in love. We had our first child. By the time our second child came, We had a lot of financial problems. There was a lot of threats of divorce almost from the beginning whenever we would have a fight. I'm a child of divorce, so it was like real salt in the wound. And after a couple of marriage counselors, I remember my last marriage counselor, I said, I asked for a private session and I said, like, can you please, like, what are you seeing? And he's like, well, what are you seeing, Karen? He doesn't hear you. He doesn't see you. He doesn't think there's anything wrong with him. Like, what is it that you're waiting or— and I was like, oh, okay, you're seeing that too. So sometimes the marriage counselors are so neutral when you're in there that, like, I was like, I don't think I realized that that's what you were seeing. And I think I needed permission, which probably a lot of your guys would— like, I needed permission. I wanted him to understand why I was having such a hard time. Um, and I remember my therapist saying, "Your pain threshold, Karen, is so high that you'll just keep staying, and if you're waiting for permission, you're never going to get it." And then she said the thing that made me decide. She said, "At this point, if you continue to stay, you're as abusive towards your children as he is, and you need to take responsibility for that." And I was like, "I'm out." And so in effect, I couldn't leave for me. I think I would have stayed. But I could leave when I realized that the dynamic was really harming. And we had pumpkins. They weren't even in grade school yet. So, um, so, so yeah, so, so it took me from the time I said that I wanted a divorce, 3 and a half years, and a custody evaluator, an attorney for the children, uh, CPS came to the house, the police came to the house. I mean, it was just a hot mess, and I was a shell of myself. I was so I was on such shaky ground and insecure as a parent, scared to death of him. Um, and, uh, and the 3 and a half years, really, when you stay in that discomfort and do the work, 3 and a half years later, I felt like a new person. I was really proud of myself. I felt confident. I felt clear. I didn't dive into all the bullshit with him. I didn't jump in and, you know, I didn't, I didn't join every party I was invited to. I'll say it's like a lot of those I just let go, and it made a huge difference. And it's made— it's what made me want to do what I do.

That's awesome. Good for you. Yeah, and, uh, I think a lot of people can relate to that story. We got Robert here from Facebook who is a member of the Brotherhood. Hello, Mr. Robert. He says, finding permission seems to be my struggle as I move through the challenges of my marriage. Um, there's a lot of men who come to me saying I just want to know that I did everything that I could to save this. I can't go through this divorce and ruin my children's lives, quote unquote, knowing that, oh man, I should have done this. And, uh, what stings later is to watch your now ex-partner flourish, supposedly, yeah, outwardly at least, uh, flourish in a new relationship. And so that makes you feel doubly like, that could have been me, we could have worked this out. I was like, Probably not. Probably not for a lot of the situations that I see.

Yeah, so I, I'm just going to say something. When, when you've dealt with somebody who is, um, emotionally immature or non-reflective or black and white or whatever your spouse is, uh, for you to imagine that she is now in a new relationship and not doing any of that is just silly. So what you don't see, you actually know. So just just don't even go there, it's not worth it. I'm a big fan of turning over every stone before you leave. Regret is a liar, but it's really important to, to try. And I'll say to people who come to me, if they're like, I don't want to regret it, well, okay, so then let's look at mending, but let's look at it in a way that makes sense. Like, let's have no rose-colored glasses. Let's take a look at How long are you going to give it? What do you need to see? What changes are you seeing? Because then you can actually do that for a really— if it in fact can't be mended, it doesn't, it doesn't have to take 6 months or a year. You can, you can look and see. And it's like the other thing that I'll say is don't listen to the words, actions over words. So she may promise you, you know, everything. But those actions are what is telling you whether or not there's any movement or any change. And then the other thing I have found is both men and women come to me all the time saying, I am just so uncertain. And I would say 90% of the time they're not uncertain. They're just scared shitless.

That's it.

And when we can start to unweave, what are you uncertain about? And what's fear? You know, all of a sudden it becomes really clear to them. This is what I usually do. I do a Rapid Relief call. It's a free call to anybody who wants. And a lot of times my Mender End people walk in thinking that they're uncertain, walk out realizing they just need to push through their fear, their comfort zone, and get started because nothing's actually going to change otherwise.

Very good. See, guys, I'm not spewing bullshit. You are— you were saying my talking points just verbatim. I'm just sitting there going, yes, yes, yes, yes. This is— you're talking to a couple of people here, Karen and myself, who've been there, done that. Yeah, that's huge. Survived, that's huge. Came out smelling pretty good on the other end. And we both have the benefit of talking to hundreds and hundreds of people that have gone through the same thing. So we see the same thing again and again. We draw some conclusions. So I, I love everything you're saying. It's awesome. Fear of what's next is so real, says Mr. Robert. Yeah, there's— it's funny, I'm gonna pick on you here a little bit, Robert, because I, I know you somewhat. We have chatted before. But Robert is— I'm gonna really inflate his ego here— a handsome devil. Let me just put that out there. Uh, head-turner. Uh, charming as can be. When you meet this guy, you're like, this guy having all these problems? But even him, he's just like, I don't what, what lies ahead for me in the future. I'm scared. It's okay to say you're scared. That's perfectly okay. He's— he embodies what I see in so many men, which is, I will take the familiar, predictable awfulness over the I don't know what's over the other side of that wall any day. Then I'm looking at guys like Robert going, dude, I can tell you what's ahead— a whole bunch of fun and awesomeness. And you're— there's going to be a cavalcade of women knocking on your door saying, can I be the next one, please? Yes, and he just doesn't believe it. Yeah, I don't know.

So Robert, I'm just gonna— I'm gonna just, uh, confirm. In fact, I have a client who wrote to me last— he texted me last week and he goes, my younger self would have never imagined the female magnet that I am. And he's in his mid-60s, he's a good-looking guy. And, um, and I tell people, you know, your best chapter is ahead of you if you've been in a hellacious really difficult, dysfunctional, toxic, abusive— you use your word— if that's been the marriage that you're in and you think this is as good as it gets, you are so incorrect. And I have, I think, over 40— one of the episodes I do on my podcast is called Voices of Celebration. We don't celebrate the divorce, we celebrate the growth through the divorce. I have 40-plus episodes. Some people just binge those episodes. Every one of them tells the same story, guys. I was scared to death entering this. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, and I love my life post-divorce. Whether they partnered or didn't partner, they did what is their priority, um, strengthen their relationship with their kids. And when you work with somebody like Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer and you do this work, um, your best is ahead of And, uh, we know it. So even though you can't see it or believe it, uh, we actually have a crystal ball because we've done this so much and we know that it's true.

Very well said. Very well said. With that being said, on the romantic side of things, and if you see if you agree with me or not, a lot of the people, horrible relationship, they hung on for years, if not decades. They got stuff they need to work on up here. And with a lot of the men that I work with, they just do not like being alone. And so when this one says bye-bye, he is immediately on the apps or whatever it is looking for the next one. And I always tell men, just put— pump the brakes a little bit, dude. Put the women aside for a while. Let's set the relationship thing aside for a bit. I say 12 months. It goes by fast, but you got a lot of stuff going on right now with the divorce and the logistics of the divorce and the kids and everything else. But I tell you, probably close to 100% of them do not listen to me. They jump right into the relationship game. No, I need another one. And what happens is that blows up and they're like, oh crap, I found my ex-wife all over again. This is nuts. I need to cool it with this, whatever it may be. Do you see a lot?

Yeah.

And there's, there's one different.

No. Well, I think that men do it more than women. I would say that, that men are more apt to go out there. What I say to my women is, if you can do it and not get emotionally attached, you haven't had any good sex in years and you want to go out and play and get laid and have fun. Go at it, but don't lie to yourself, because if you're gonna fall in love with the first guy who makes you feel good, you're going to meet the same man with a different face. You're going to rinse and repeat, and then you're going to call me and say, why does this keep happening to me? And it's not happening to you, you're participating in it. I agree with you 100%. If you haven't done the, um, mindset and emotional work of healing, of understanding your patterns and actually seeing those patterns shift You will absolutely go and meet the same woman with a different face. And, um, don't do that. Don't do that to yourself.

Yeah, yeah, you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt. It gets— you think things are bad now. And often what I hear from men is that post-divorce breakup, the, the, uh, the rebound gal, that breakup hurts worse than the divorce I just went through. The divorce, the woman of 20 years, it's nuts.

And, and right, because, because you don't have all that hostility. So that new one is like, you feel like you're just losing like all the goodies. I had this one fella, really just brilliant guy, just handsome man, successful. And he, he wanted to go on dates. And so after the first date, he was like, oh my God, she's amazing. Within 2 weeks, she was the spitting image of his ex-wife emotionally. And then he found the next one. He's like, no, no, no, no, this this is it. And about a week and a half later, he's like, I can't believe I didn't see it. And so at least we were coaching regularly. So with each one, I was like, okay, tell me, what are you seeing? You know, and, and after the third or fourth one, I think he finally was like, I think you're right. I think I need to take a break. I'm exhausted.

It's— some people have to learn the hard way. Unfortunately, when I'm dealing with a lot of these— keep using the word codependent— Mr. Nice Guy types, um, they tend to fall in love really fast, really hard, and they don't want to let that go. So yeah, they may find wife 2.0 all over again, and they're like, no, no, I'm going to make this one work. And red flag, red flag, it's like, nope, nope, ignore it, ignore it, until something's so bad or she leaves him or whatever. And he's just like, goddamn it, I did it again.

And I really do believe this comes back to the same capacity issue. Like, if you can't be alone, that is the thing to work on. That's your edge. So if I can only be alone for an hour, how do I learn how to be alone for half a day? And if I can be alone for half a day, and what, what is it about my own company that is so uncomfortable? And when I've been divorced for 20 years, I've been in 1 or 2 long-term relationships, but I'm actually on the other side of it now. I'm so comfortable being alone. I'm like, okay, I need to go push myself to be out there and meet someone. Because when you're the master of your own domain for too long, that's not it. That, that, that's— you could lie to yourself about how emotionally healthy you are as well. And so, so there's really a balance between the two. And I would say to any guy, if you just have been in a, uh, what do you call it, deadbed marriage for a long time, You know, going out there and playing and having fun, there is nothing wrong with that as long as you're honest about it with yourself, that that is all you're doing right now. If you have a slippery slope like so many of my women do, where, you know, one really good night or a couple of nice dates and you're thinking you're in love, then, then that's a big red flag right now.

Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny, uh, so many men try to convince me of No, no, I can do the casual thing. Like, I, I'm— I've resigned myself to— I know I'm not mentally ready for the real thing, but gosh darn it, I want to get laid. Okay. And I tell you what happens is I, I say, as long as you're completely open about that with your prospective dates or whatever it is, like, I'm not looking to get married again, so let's just put that out there, blah, blah. And they're like, cool, yeah, I'm just looking to have fun as well. And you're like, cool, cool. You have to be cool with the fact, Mr. Man, that she's got a date next Wednesday too. With John, and then the week after that she may have a date with David. You ain't going to be the only one. And you know, it's interesting, a lot of guys are like, I don't like that idea, I, I want to be the sole. So it's like they want to be the Mr. Player guy and have multiple relationships going on, but they always have this weird thought in their mind like, but not her, the one I'm with, she's just with me, right? It's like, no, it doesn't work that way.

It's very, you know, and it's, it's, it's very complex, you know. I, I find online dating is very complex, and so the the more grounded you are, the more you, you've kind of rebuilt your self-confidence and your, um, sense of self, I think that it, it, it can be a lot of fun to be out there. But if you go out there at the wrong time, it really can be salt in the wound.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, um, sex is complicated, and to think that we can just remove emotion from it completely and make it just a physical porno type of act or whatever is that— yeah, good luck. Most of us cannot. There is going to be some semblance of bonding there going on, and your chances of heartbreak and so forth go up. And since you're freshly divorced and you've probably identified some problems you have going up in your head, you're more apt to connect with a certain type of person, and that lends itself to drama. Just prepare yourself, dude, drama awaits. It's just— in my book I say with sex comes drama, and with drama comes sex. They seem to be kind of interchangeable. And some people are able to navigate that and say, eh, no big deal. Most guys cannot, from what I've seen.

Well, and you just, you just triggered something in my mind. If you're emerging from some kind of a dysfunctional relationship, that, that concept of drama, um, can be confused. So chemistry, passion, chaos. And so those of us who've lived in chaos and thought it was passion or chemistry, it's a very confusing thing. And they're very different, but they can feel the same if you haven't done the healing that you need to do. And I just want to throw a saying. I'm big on pithy, short sayings that help me remember things. And so this is not mine that I made up, but I've been sharing it for years. Every upset is a setup. Every time you get triggered, you're being invited into not looking outward, but looking inward and doing the, doing the work to emotionally heal. So every upset is a setup. Get upset.

It's actually for you if you choose to use How we as men often frame situations like this, it's a test. It's a test of me. You can say God is testing me, the universe, life, whatever it may be, but it's a very masculine frame. It was like, all right, life just threw this at me. All right, my wife just said this to me. How do I react to this? All right, it's a— I think it's a healthy way of looking at it unless it becomes, I guess, paranoid type of thing. Everyone's out to get me type of thing. But to look at it as, okay, this is a challenge, Um, that, that is something we talked about before that men just don't do, it seems. At least, be fair, the men that I speak to— the timeout and sitting in discomfort and just saying, what is bugging me so much right now? Why am I so keyed up right now? Why am I so anxious? Why am I wanting to pick up the phone and start connecting with women on Tinder? Why am I— what is it about this moment right here, right now that is bugging me? And it's, it's amazing when you just take those timeout moments and just sit in You go, well, might be the fact that I haven't really slept all that much. I need probably my sleep. I'm behind my sleep. I haven't been to the gym the last 4 days. I told myself I'd do that every other day. And you just, all right, get off your butt and go do something, or rest, or whatever it may be. And it's funny, just let that moment pass. It's like one of those, if you're like an impulsive type person, you're ready to buy something, everyone says just give it the night, think about it overnight. And there's a reason for that. We tend to be emotional, do, do, do. Impulsive little creatures, especially when it comes to sex and all that other good stuff, that we can make a lot of decisions that lead to a lot of chaos. I wouldn't forget, guys, go to journeybeyonddivorce.com, check out the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. And Miss Karen here is an expert on all things contentious divorce, and I know a lot of you guys can relate to that world, unfortunately. Guys, don't be shy. Got a few more minutes here. Um, we do have, going back to a previous point about giving yourself permission, we have Mr., uh, Jason says here— Jason, I'm sorry, I didn't recognize the name. Duh, Jason's a member of the Brotherhood. Hello, Mr. Jason. He's still finding it hard at times to, quote, give myself permission in my newly divorced life. Uh, working on getting out of survival mode is challenging to say the least. Got any tips for that? Jason says.

Yeah. Jason, it's very connected to the conversation we were just having about chaos. Right. And so when you emerge, there's space and there's calm. I had one client who was like, he called me and he's like, I'm bored. I was like, you're not bored. You're not bored. You're just so used to her being like that when it stopped, you this space, this quiet, this calm. And it's okay to not know how to fill that right away. If you're— if you have an issue with giving yourself permission, you know, a tip of mine would be, if you had permission, what's your list? What's the priority of it? And then what's really keeping you? But I think that oftentimes we have— we have the space, and it comes back to capacity too. It's like, how comfortable am I going out and doing something for myself? How comfortable am I beginning to behave differently? And maybe you were guilted or shamed for every time you played golf or went out with the guys or what have you. And so it's that same thing you were just talking about, Ralph. It's like, why am I feeling this way? Can I sit with my discomfort, look inward, and just get to know myself a little bit better? And it happens fast when you start doing it, especially when you have some support from someone like you. And, and then all of a sudden you're, you're tracking true and you're feeling more authentic and you're, you're just like, your sense of self just blossoms.

Uh, there's one point I forgot to make earlier that adds to the— it's interesting, but it adds to the whole chaos of this is that there is an aspect of psychology that we know when it comes to manipulating people, and this is very potent, effective form of manipulation, which is give somebody a little bit of something positive or a lot of something positive and then pull it and pull it away and be very unpredictable with the giving. Um, so you don't know what's, what's in or out. Is this good or bad? And then when it's good, holy crap, it's so good. But when, when they're gone, it's just like, what just happened? Do they not like me?

What—

that is a very addictive element, and that's something in the human brain that wants more and more of that. So when we get in these relationships and we're dating and this woman is blowing up your phone and she makes you feel like a king again, and then next day nothing, and the next day nothing, and the next day you're like, did she— and then she comes back, you're like, woohoo, and you have sex, and then she goes away again. We misinterpret that in our little brains, our little dumb male brains, as I'm in love and this is amazing and this is— I want to keep this going. And it takes the outside influence to go, timeout, dude, what you're experiencing is not good. You're basically— she may not know it overtly, but you're being manipulated. You're being pulled around here. So I just want to get that point across to you guys. If you're experiencing that, whether you're in your existing long-term relationship or out in the dating world, um, you just recognize that it's not a good thing.

You know, I would say my entire life, the men I fell in love with, it was like, it was like immediate. It was like soulmate sparks. And it wasn't until after my divorce and doing this for a while when, um, it became so crystal clear to me that if I'm out there dating and something feels familiar, I should run in the other direction. And, and I think that that's where we get tripped up. And I think everyone thinks about this soulmate thing. It's like, oh my God, if there are fireworks and it's— and, and, and there's this huge pa— and it's that passion chemistry thing again. It's actually chaos. You're so used to chaos. You grew up with chaos, you married chaos. Now there's a part of you that's actually looking for chaos. And if you don't do the work, you're going to unconsciously walk right in, walk down that aisle one more time and marry chaos. And you want to be super careful. They say that first, first marriages about 50% end in divorce, second marriages, I believe it's 67%, third marriages is 70%. 93%. Guys, we're going in the wrong direction. You gotta slow this down, and it's going to help you, and it's going to help your kids and your grandkids going forward.

Yeah, good point. I'm going to put on here on the screen— there we go— journeybeyonddivorce.com is the website. Guys, please check it out. I also put it in the comments so you can click on it there. Uh, anything else you want to leave us with, Miss Karen, before we wrap it up here?

The comments are kind of slowing down on I would say it's so good that you're listening to Ralph Brewer and that you're doing this kind of research. It is absolutely— the men who come to me have the opportunity to do it right. The men that come to you, Ralph Brewer, have the opportunity to do it right. And so I would say there's a lot of great information out there. Talk to people, and you have a group. For me, the thing I've learned the most this past year is men need men. Like, I tried to, I tried to start men's groups and it just didn't work. And so for each of you, um, join, join, be part of that men's group because hearing each other and supporting each other is going to make a world of difference in your healing and your future.

Excellent. I love it. And I will end with this, guys, and I say this often to men because men are so Oh, we want to be strong and we want to put the image of strength out there that when they feel any kind of negative anything, they are like, I'm weak, I'm bad, how do I get rid of this? And a phrase I often use with men is, dude, you just got divorced, give yourself a break, give yourself some grace. Like, you went, you endured a trauma, a breakup. I, even if it's a girlfriend of a month or whatever, is, is like, it feels yucky and it feels yucky for a while. But something like a divorce of a multi-year, multi-decade, kids involved, there's abuse, there's Dude, you're going through it. And so you're going to have a little difficult time— the Jasons of the world— saying, giving yourself permission to move on and rediscovering your new single life and feeling comfortable in your own skin. Welcome to the real world, guys. It's tough, man. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is pot of gold at the end of the rainbow— insert metaphor here. But to Karen's point, raise your hand and say, need a little help here. That's how you expedite that process of getting better. It ain't gonna be instantaneous, but you'll have— if you get with a like-minded group of individuals, whether it's a men's group or whatever it may be, you'll have those little aha moments of, "Oh, I'll try that," get a little further. "Oh, I'll try that," get a little further. "Oh, I'll avoid that," and get a little further. Otherwise, you make a lot of mistakes on your own, you learn the hard way, and you can end up in a pretty ugly place. I've heard about I've heard a lot of horror stories over the years, guys, and most of them can be avoided. That's the tough part. And, and if you've made those mistakes, be easy on yourself. Been there, done that. We— Karen's been there, done that. You just, uh, live and learn, guys. Uh, and Robert says, an amazing group, Ralph Brewer. Well, thank you, Mr. Robert. I appreciate that a great deal. And guys, for those of you— I'm going to put up my other little banner here, guys— of you that, that are interested in joining our men's group, here we go: help4men.com/join to check out the Brotherhood. We would love to have you. All kinds of benefits, you can check it out on that page there. And Miss Karen, thank you so very much for joining us today. I absolutely loved it.

Me as well. Thank you. All right, guys, every one of you, thank you so very much.

And guys, that's it for me today. We'll catch you on the next one. A toodaloo!