Dads Dating After Divorce: "Why Divorced Dads Are A Catch!"

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Hello and welcome to the Dad's Dating After Divorce podcast. I am Jude Sandoval, the creator of the Divorced Advocate podcast. And community. And my friend and colleague here is—

my name is Ralph Brewer, but I go by the pen name DSO. I'm the author of several books, including the popular The Dead Bedroom Fix, and founder of DadStartingOver.com and the DSO Fraternity, our members-only group. And DSO stands for Dad Starting Over.

That's starting over, right? Awesome. And so Ralph and I, I'll just give you some background about each one of us. We have collaborated many times over the past couple of years in kind of our our respective communities are working with, uh, with dads who are going through divorce. And so I recently contacted Ralph Brewer and, and said, hey, you know, I think there's a real big need. I've been getting a lot of people that have been talking about, you know, how do I start dating after divorce as a dad? And I know Ralph Brewer has done that. Both Ralph Brewer and I are divorced, which is— we'll tell a little bit about our stories here in just a little bit, but which has led us to developing the, uh, the work that, that we've been working on and developing with, uh, divorcing dads and, um, dads, uh, not just dads but divorcing men, men's work, uh, that includes dads, all kinds of what we were discussing, uh, Ralph, just before, just a myriad of things that, that go into all of this. And so, uh, Ralph Brewer Brewer agreed kindly to, for us to collaborate on, on this and start this Dads, uh, Dating After Divorce podcast. And so the first thing we wanted to, to, to do and start with was, uh, an episode about why you as a dad, uh, dating after divorce, why you're a catch. And, and so, uh, you know, Ralph, I'll, I'll just throw this out there. The reason I came up with this episode is I was, I was meeting with a guy this week and, and he's going through his divorce, and, and he said he was at work and he opened up, which sometimes is hard, right, at, uh, to open up to people about your divorce and, and going through it. But he opened up to a guy at work and said, I'm, I'm I'm going through a divorce. And he leaned into him and he basically said, well, congratulations, you're like a used car now, which I thought was awful because I don't feel that that's necessarily true. No, no, no, that's just— and then to make it worse, he turned around and he pointed out some not incredibly attractive woman. And he said, that's what you've got to look forward to dating now. And, you know, it is like just, just smashed the guy's complete, um, yeah, you know, complete hope for something that could be positive and beneficial after his divorce, as if divorce isn't already challenging, difficult enough to go through, to, to just squash all of his. So, um, but, but so that's what gave me the topic idea for, for everybody listening today. But before we get into it and kind of talk about, um, why the divorced dads are catches, let's, uh, if you don't mind sharing a little bit about your background and your community and what brought you to this and why, uh, you know, why you're an expert in helping dads, which you are.

Well, briefly, about 10 years ago, I was married and had 3 children, the youngest of which was just over a year of age. And that's when I discovered infidelity on my wife's part. My now ex-wife's part, and I went through a divorce which was surprisingly traumatic for me as a dude. And that kind of opened my eyes to, oh man, I'm not as tough as I thought I was. I got some issues here. And in doing so, went to therapists who in turn, kudos to her, said, dude, you need to be in touch with more men in your life. You're like every other dude I talk to. You don't talk to men. You've cut all friends out of your life. All you guys just worry about your kids and your job and your wife, and that's it. Just and she like gave me the name of a dude and said, uh, here's his name and number, contact him. He's been waiting to talk to you. He's exact same situation you're in, which was a— that was my first eye-opener of, oh my God, all these stories are the same. And, um, spoke to that guy and he opened my mind or opened my eyes to there's a whole online world of guys in your shoes. Go talk to them. And that really springboarded me into, I kind of enjoy talking about this stuff. Getting help from other dudes, taking what I've learned and helping other guys. And I started a website, basically a blog called dadstartingover.com, right? I was lucky enough that that was available and, um, started writing. And like every other blog, nobody reads a stupid thing. It was just a form of therapy for me, like an online diary, right? And then I would write, um, anytime I wrote anything about sex and marriage, like, here are my thoughts on what I experienced going my first marriage, and sex wasn't the greatest thing in the world.. And here in the dating world, what I've experienced, and I had done that for several years and then met a new woman who in turn became my fiancée, and then we got married. Um, but through all that, I'm like, wow, why is this experience just so night and day different from my first? And what can I learn from this? And so I wrote a little bit on it and those got some hits, those articles. And eventually somebody says, you need to write a book about this. I really like your point of view on this. So I did. And that was a book called The Dead Bedroom Fix, which eventually came out with a, uh, Second version in 2020, and it's been a pretty good success. And I took from that success and all the eyeballs now on my website and everybody emailing me and stuff. I created a members group and we've kind of taken off from there. I have coaches working for me. We have almost 900 dudes from around the world in the group, and it's been wonderful. We get together and meet in person and we have live meetings on Zoom, all kinds of neat stuff.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And your community is, is absolutely amazing. I encourage anybody listening to, to, to get involved with it as well. And, and so, so I, I would say that's all a lot, but one of the biggest things that I feel is, uh, is important is that you have successfully traversed dating, uh, after divorce as a dad, found somebody, and now are in a, in a happy, successful, uh, marriage, which is really, really fantastic and phenomenal because as we'll probably unfold and, and unravel and dive deep into over coming episodes is there are a lot of challenges that, that go into that. Oh yeah, my experience. So, so my experience is I was, I was divorced. My divorcery was July 1st, so it's been, been 9 years and I have not been successful in, uh, in finding somebody and remarrying. I am a firm believer in, uh, in marriage. I was, uh, I was married for 11 years. I have 3 daughters who are 16, 14, and 12 now, who are 6, 4, and, and 2 at the, at the time that we started the whole divorce process. And similar to your experience, it was tremendously difficult and challenging going through that process. And, you know, former Division I athletes and high achiever, successful business owner, and man, I'll tell you, divorce kicked my ass, right? Because it's not anything that you ever are trained to know and understand, to hopefully go through more than once. And like going through anything the first time, time or doing anything the first time. You're just not good at it.

Yeah.

And so, and that's kind of like, that's the, the whole premise here is dating, you know, dads dating after divorce. You just don't know what you don't know. And so hopefully we're gonna be able to shed some, some light on that between our, our respective communities, the input that we've get from, uh, from the, the guys every single day and being immersed in this, and then also some of the feedback from your success and some of the feedback from my colossal failures over the 9 years of dating, which, uh, which I'll hopefully share slowly. I don't want to scare anybody off right away. So that's why we're starting with this topic today, which is why you are, uh, why you are a catch, uh, as a divorced dad. And so I know I've got some ideas, but maybe share, maybe share, um, with us a little bit, uh, about why you feel in your dating life, what you brought as a positive to, you know, to the dating world and to somebody when you were going through that process with your wife?

You know, I think a good way to frame this, a good place to start is with that doofus who told your friend, "Look what you're in for!" Why? Why would he say that? That is just— that's kind of a microcosm or a perfect example of a mindset that you see in a lot of different aspects of life. I run my own business. I'm an entrepreneur. Can you guess what percentage of people tell me, yeah, that's going to fail, right? Yeah, that's terrible. That's awful. Why would you do that? Why don't I get a regular paycheck? And yeah, yeah, wow, Mr. Dreamer. Like, yeah, right. Like, that's going to work. Same kind of mindset with that guy. You know what you're in for. And look at this slob over here. That's— well, why is that? Because they're basically sharing their, their perspective on this and their experience in life, and they got kicked in the teeth a few times. That guy's had no luck with women, so he's telling you that You can't have any luck with women. But a healthier mindset from that one doofus guy would have been, I haven't had any luck, but dude, you got a good head on your shoulders. You're a good dude. You'll be all right. Or you'll probably be all right. It's rough out there, but you'll be okay. I think it's a healthier way of looking at it.

Yeah. You know, let me just comment on that, please, because that was for me, that was kind of an aha in this whole post-divorce process for me. And, and I made the mistake. I made lots of mistakes, as will be revealed as we, as we talk. But, um, um, when I finally started to look at those mistakes as working for me and not against me, that, that my life, like all of these experiences were working for me and like life in general was happening for me and not, uh, against me, really things started to change. And even failed relationships or things not going well with my ex, et cetera, taking that mindset where you just described, which is What can I learn from this? What am I supposed to learn from this to be successful in the future? Kind of like the— you talked about being a business owner. It's kind of a business philosophy. If you're not getting the result you wanted, what are you working backwards? What do you need to change? And what feedback do you need in order to make that change to get the result or the intention that you're setting? So I love that fact in that point.

In keeping with the business analogy, at the most basic level, You're putting a product on the market, you know, you say, "Market, what do you think?" And for a lot of men that I talk to, the market comes back with crickets, nothing. And their initial reaction is, "Well, there's nothing out there." Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Another way to look at it is kind of point the magnifying glass at yourself and say, "What are you providing out there?" And a lot of these men, they go out with what I call in my writing, it's kind of this provider suit of, "Look at me, I got a great job." I take really good care of my kiddos. That's about it. Isn't that enough, world? Here you go. And a lot of— well, what they found is that their market is responding back with a big yawn because their market is saying, I'm a divorced woman myself, 30, 40, 50-some years of age. I just left a man like that. Those are great qualities and all, it's wonderful that you do that, pat you on the head, good job, but I want some excitement. I want some fun. What do you got in that realm? Yeah, when you ask those guys, they're like, well, shit, I, I don't know. I haven't really done much in the excitement and fun world for the last so many decades. I've been busy with job and kids, and now this divorce. So maybe it's a little bit of reinvention needed there, right? Um, the more, more insidious, for lack of a better term, deeper thing is what's going on, you know, between the, between your ears. A lot of men have a lot of trauma in their life that dates back pre-divorce, a lot of kids stuff that they bring to the table, and Yep! A lot of codependency and neediness that frankly, if you are in front of a woman who has a good head on her shoulders, after about 5-10 minutes of meeting you, she can sniff that out right away! Which is why these women get wide-eyed and say, "Well, it was really nice meeting you, John, and take care!" And he's like, "What the hell?" And I said, "Well, you went in right away with some really needy behavior, unbeknownst to you!" And he's like, "I had no idea! That's just been my script all my life!" So, a lot of different ways in which to explain why exactly the dating world isn't working as well as it should for your average Joe out there. While some guys go out there in the dating world and oh my, they're like a kid in a candy store. Yeah, like, dude, I had 7 dates last weekend.

That was me, right? Yeah.

Well, you know, I want to go back to a point you made previously, and I'll challenge you on this. Um, is your sole definition of success within the dating world the endgame of a long-term relationship or marriage? In other words, if I looked in the magnifying or the crystal ball and I said, I can see into the future and dude, it ain't happening. Yeah, well, next 30, 40 years of dating, it ain't happening. You're just gonna jump from woman to woman to woman. Does that say— does that make you go, oof? Do you dread that and say, that doesn't sound pleasurable at all?

Um, no, because I have intentions, but my— like, reaching those intentions are not, uh, it's not just a linear path, right? So going through this process and knowing that from each of these experiences, maybe I'm moving closer to my intention, maybe that intention happens, maybe it's not. It's kind of like, uh, like the development of our respective businesses. Like, I had an intention around what I originally wanted to do, it was masculine development. While I'm still doing that, but like, it's very specific and very different than what I initially believed my business to be. So that's kind of the mindset that I take into dating as well. I still have an intention. I would like to— I believe in marriage. I would like to have a blended family. I would like to do that. But hey, I can't force that if it's not potentially in the cards or it's not working to where it's going to happen, or I've not developed to the point that that is something that's going to be feasible. So that's the long answer to No, like, I don't dread it. It's more about, for me, the, the journey than it is the destination.

Good, good. Yeah, that's why, like, so many men go in with that of— because divorce is such a traumatic thing, and one of the quickest ways to, um, stop the bleeding is to go ahead and replace with another human Band-Aid called another wife. And there's a lot of guys that jump into relationships that are pretty toxic right away, but hey, at least I got a wife out of it. And then they're right back where they were before with the previous toxic relationship, and they wonder why. I mean, you jumped a little bit too fast into that. Why not just have fun?

Exactly. Well, and I did that exact thing, started dating during my divorce, which was not a really good idea. I had not done the work.

Yeah, right.

Had not paid attention to what those dynamics are. What— and you said it about getting into a similar relationship, and then getting— and then I got into another similar relationship, and then another, until I figured out the common denominator here is not the women out there. And I think that's maybe the, the biggest point we can make it about right now is there's got to be self-reflection, otherwise you're going to, you're, you're going to perpetuate and relive the same experience you, you had in, in your marriage. And I don't know about you, But I didn't want that, and I think anybody that's listening probably doesn't want that, uh, as well, if there's a reason why you, uh, why you're no longer married to your, to your ex. So maybe pay attention first to what you've got going on and what you, you know, what we bring to the table first, uh, so that you don't— like you said, those— a healthy woman is going to sniff that out in a heartbeat and just be like See you later. I don't, I don't care what great traits you have in being a provider, you know, that, that may have been, what, 100, 200 years ago, just the, the basic necessities, uh, around being a good mate or a good husband. But now that's completely, completely changed and completely shifted. Like you said, being able to be, be fun, being somebody that is, is deeper, has more understanding of your masculinity and how that works in the world, how that works in the dynamic with the relationship with her.

There's so much more that goes into There's a very, um, kind of scary but interesting big picture phenomenon at play here, which is the, the, the sexual dynamics, whatever you want to call it, between men and women. It's going through a pretty drastic shift here, and a lot of men are still playing by a very old playbook.

Yeah.

And, um, the old-timey way of looking at it was looking at my provider traits. Isn't that enough? Yeah, good enough, because I need you to survive, Mr. Man. Yay! Everything works great! We're together and we have so many kids and great grandkids! Well, when that goes away, what's left? And there's the old Pareto principle at play, which affects a lot of different things in life. And oh my gosh, is it so prevalent in the dating world or in the sexual marketplace, if you want to use that old term, which is a small percentage of people in a variety of— the Pareto principle is basically like, I'm trying to see how best to succinctly describe it. 20% of people get 80% of the results or something to that effect.

Exactly.

So I always like to use— visualize it in form of like a pyramid. The tippy top of the pyramid, very few people can fit at the tippy top, but I'll be damned if they don't get most of the rewards. And the rest of us are slowly in the middle, and then the base, which is the big part of it, doesn't get a whole lot of much of anything. And the doofus— I keep calling them the doofus— the doofus beginning, um, He's at the bottom of the pyramid and he's like, "It really sucks down here, dude! This is what you're in for!" The point is that you can claw, scrape, and elbow your way to get to the top or near the top and that's where you'll notice, "Oh wow! It looks a hell of a lot different up here!" Right! So, in keeping with the theme of this show which is "Men Are a Catch!" What we're saying basically is, as you get closer to the top of that pyramid, "Oh my gosh! Are you a catch!" and oh my gosh, does the scenery change big time! Exactly! And the world is your oyster, basically! Yup!

And for those— yeah, for those that aren't familiar with the Pareto Theory, it's— that's across— that's across life, that's across— it's a universal concept, it's a universal concept that's across everything, that 20% get or accomplish, achieve 80% of the results. So exactly like what you're saying, if you're not pushing yourself, if you're not striving and making the effort to move up to that level, then yeah, you're going to be the doofus that is just bitching and complaining and moaning and unhappy and not getting the results that you want. Again, it goes back, if you're not getting the results that you want, you need to look internally and see what you need to do to make some changes.

And we have some— I have a lot of guys in my group who come from middle of nowhere, middle America and stuff like that. And they're like, I'm in a town of 500 people. You know, good luck trying to find it. Okay, you got a point. Yeah, sure, you know, jump in your car or get on an airplane and go see the world for goodness sakes. And that's one thing, but that doesn't— that doesn't represent the majority, I would think, by any stretch. Um, but you're right, look internally. Where are some of the, um, not so good things that you're bringing to the table in terms of this new marketplace, if we want to call it that. This is what's going on out there. This is the new game. You have to play by the new rules. Playing by your old rules ain't going to cut it anymore. Playing by your old rules as Mr. Provider-y Married Dude— sorry, my man.

Yeah. And I also want to point out that I don't feel like we're diminishing the protector/provider idea and how that is biologically wired into us as masculine men. We're not saying that. We're not saying that that's bad. It's not. And we're not saying that it's bad to be a protector. A provider. We're just saying that just leading with that, if that's all you're offering out there, it's just, it's just not going to do it because the world is a different place.

Yeah, putting all your eggs into that basket ain't gonna cut it. Um, one of my points is that a relationship built on provider points alone is not enough. It's just not. You got to bring more to the table. Got to be Mr. Sexy, Mr. Fun, Mr. All That Stuff. You got to work on yourself. Um, So let's play then, for sake of the title of this, let's play pretend and say he's done all the work.

Yep!

He's therapy, he's taken time for himself, he's worked on himself physically, mentally, and he's— as far as all his female platonic friends that he's talked to, they're all like, "Oh my gosh, dude! You got it going on! You're gonna go out there and kill!" And he throws himself out there, what can he expect? And is he ready for it? Because it can be a little— I've talked to some men who do check all those boxes. They put themselves out there, and the rewards are so abundant for them that it's actually a bit alarming for them. And it's actually an eye-opener for them of, oh my, this is kind of the real world. This is how it was for all those other dudes that I've known, all those player guys, whatever, Mr. Playboy, whatever you want to call Right. I don't know if I like this.

I don't know.

I don't know if I like, um, casual sexual relationships.

Sure.

I don't, I don't know if I like, um, one-night stands, picking up a gal at a bar and taking— this just doesn't feel right. Right. Um, that was personally something that I struggle with. Not that I was ever Mr. Player, let's not go there. I understand my own limitations. But it was such that— this is interesting— my brokenness early in my dating phase. Dated way too early, but for whatever reason, my brokenness and erratic kind of behavior attracted women to me that were kind of easy. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And, um, the fact that I was able to get to bed with these women so easily was kind of troubling to me and downright emotional. I went from being a dad, father with wife, and everything's laid out for the next so many decades to suddenly in bed with some strange woman who I just met.

Yes!

What the hell am I doing here? What is this? What's going on? So I don't know, what am I getting at with that is be careful what you wish for, I guess. And right, and if you are in fact not of the mindset of casual dating, sex is the Shangri-La, that's my endgame, that's okay, that's perfectly fine. No one's, you know, putting a gun to your head saying you have to go out and do this, but realize, I guess, um, the, the, the, uh, the story is here. Realize that that's the world out there right now, and that is, um, you're going to run into a lot of people with that mindset.

Well, and, and that was almost shocking to me as well, having been out of the dating scene for, for, for what, almost, uh, 13, 13 years, uh, after, after my, my divorce, and jumping right in and seeing and, and just having this be a— in my estimation, it's just a free— a sexual free-for-all, right? There's, there's women that are, or, um, are act— acting like men traditionally did around sexuality, right? That it's, uh, out there and it's free and it's open. And maybe that's an episode in the future we talk about that and, and its implications. But what, what I would like to say to that is If you are somebody that you just described, you've done the work and you know what you're bringing to this, that you are a catch. And there's a lot of reasons why you are a catch. And your experience as a dad who's gone through and endured divorce and has persevered and then has created a life on the other side of it, that's creating an intention around what it is and how you want to date is incredibly important so that you don't— you're falling into that. And I see, so, you know, I made this mistake. I just, I made it basically, Ralph, I've made every mistake. And that's why I'm doing this. I'm trying to warn, drop some pearls, warn, you know, warn, uh, because it's very heartbreaking, especially if you, like you said in the beginning, you're just, you're wanting something that you had. And for me, that I, I just loved family and I loved being in a family environment and having that with my daughters and all that. And just like what I immediately wanted to do but there is a reason why I failed the first time. And what I— there was so much work that I needed to do in the interim. And obviously still, because I have not found that and have not been able to get to that, uh, that achieve that intention. Um, but I still continue to look at the feedback, right? And, and so creating that intention about what you want— and when I say intention, if your intention is to go out and you just, you want to have some sexual experiences because that is not— has something that you've, you've had, then, um, that's okay too. Like, you, um, that's not comfortable for me, uh, anymore. That's not my intention. That doesn't, uh, that doesn't, that doesn't move me towards my intention. And, and my life is— I'm trying to develop to be intentional about getting there, right? Your actions all will either get you towards what you're intending or they'll move you away from that. And for me at this point, it moves me away. But that's not to say that that's not something positive for the dads dating out there, that they might need to have that sexual connection, or even if it's just to start dating and knowing that you just want to get out there and get some attention, right? Just build up some confidence in being able to, to talk with and go out on a date with somebody.

Yeah, there is a school of thought that, uh, the best way to learn something is just to jump into the deep end of the pool and you know, start swimming. Um, which I— that absolutely has some value. That's what I did, and there was failure and there was emotional this and that, but in the end I came out going, that wasn't so bad, and what can I learn from this? What can I learn from that? But for some men that I've spoken to, they're at such a point— we're going back again to, are you ready emotionally or mentally or not for this— that they're at such a point where they get a little glimmer of success and they jump right into not so good codependent behavior and attach themselves to somebody.

Yeah.

And oh man, they get their heart broken and they get crushed. And a lot of men report, wow, why is it that my first post-divorce breakup actually hurts worse than what I experienced in the divorce? And I always say, well, because it was almost as if the universe told you, look up, we know you went through hell with that divorce thing. Here you go. Here's Miss Perfect. And the guy's like, I can't believe this happened. I found Mrs. Perfect and it's only been like a month and a half since my divorce. This is great. Thank you, God. Thank you, universe. This is wonderful. And they just ignore every red flag in the book and continue marching on because I found Miss Perfect. And then it ends horribly, you know, catches her with some other man or finds out she's on drugs, whatever it may be. And then he's like, wow, the universe just pulled the rug out from under me or just pointed at me and said, ah, psych, you know, we were just joking. And you're right back to where you were before, and it just— they lose all hope. And to some men, just the thought of that is potentially a possibility out there. I'm gonna lose and get heartbroken all over again? No thank you. And they remove themselves from the dating pool completely. Um, that's no way to go through life. Um, if in fact you find that the trauma of that is such that you can't bear it anymore and it drives you to near suicide or whatever it may be, yeah, you need to get some help with Yeah! Again, going back to for some people, the proper route is to go in there, get heartbroken, go in there, get heartbroken, get a couple of drinks thrown in your face, get slapped at a bar, whatever it may be and then eventually you go, "It doesn't hurt so much anymore!" And then that's when you find, "Oh wow! I've turned the corner and things are all right!" I shared with another podcast that I did that it seemed that a real shift for me, for whatever reason, this was my shift. Was the moment when I wasn't even hitting on a woman, but I just said something to her that was kind of in a friendly term. And we were at someplace that was kind of loud and I was kind of yelling. I said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She turned to me and she just looked at me and said something like, "Honey, you're a little too old and you're a little too bald." Okay. My reaction was like, holy shit, that was awesome! Because what a slam, right? It was so over the top bad that it was hilarious. And then my initial reaction was like, Jesus, well, all right. And I was like, said like, well, the good news is that there's a lot of guys, younger guys here with hair, so you're in good luck. And she just laughed too. And we literally shook hands and went our separate way. And I remember like, that wasn't so bad. Yeah, that's it, you know, right? I just got basically verbally slapped in the face with, you're too old and you're, you're ugly, or what, by her criteria. And I just took it as, all right. What else?

Yeah, yeah, you know, you get to the, you get to the point. I liken it to getting in the gym, and you get in the gym, you work out, you're working your body, and you're building your muscles. And the first, the first times you do it, it's really painful. You're like, this sucks, and I don't really—

why would anybody do this?

Yeah, why would I do this? But then after a while, you start to get, oh, this is, this is, this is part of it, this is good. I know that's going to build me up for the future if I keep doing this. And, and so then you just This is, this is okay. This is good. You just become, you know, I don't want to say immune to it, but you just take it in stride and it's okay. And I did want to also address, you mentioned guys that go the other way, and so I, I was the codependent way, right? So that, that was my experience. I was massively codependent. And I, I would, I would reckon, Ralph, that a lot of the guys that might be listening today may be probably falling more on that side.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. Not the not the ones that are avoiding it.

Mr. Playboy.

Mr. Playboy, just out there. But if you are listening to that as well, I would just warn to be very careful about the information that's out there around dating because you can get down rabbit holes with some of the MGTOW stuff and—

Oh, shit. Yeah.

And whatnot. Because we're meant to be in relation with each other and just understanding and knowing that there's somebody on the other side of that relation. That relationship or how you're relating to somebody that's also going through or has gone through a challenge as well is really important. So being open about what your intentions are, and if you are Mr. Player, or if you are MGTOW, hey, amen, more power to you. But being open and forthright about what you're doing and why you're doing it and what your intentions are is really incredibly important too, because like you just described with, with your experience, that's going to come back, and it's going to come back. And as much as you might think you can separate your emotions from, uh, from all of this and just go on living your life by yourself or whatever, there's stuff is going to come up. You're going to have feelings and emotions around that. So pay attention to it. Pay attention.

Yeah, so there's a— there's very much, um, you're well aware of this, some of our content intersects, overlaps with this world of red pill talk. Yeah, and a lot of it's very cringeworthy, but I understand the origination of it, which is mostly young men that have been hurt by women. Sure. And, and they're saying, I need to— basically, they don't say this overtly, but if you look between the lines, it's basically, uh, I desperately want to be with women and I'm trying to crack the code in order to do so. And in, in my work of cracking the code, I've discovered some not so good stuff. And I need to share this with the rest of the world. And they can't shut the hell up about it. It's like, do women think this way? And they do that. And next thing you know, you're treating women like lab rats and you're trying to study them. And it's a very, um, for lack of a better term, almost kind of a spectrum-y autistic way of kind of looking and trying to decipher. And oh, here's how really humans really behave, and I need to do this but not this, I need to act this way and not that way, and And then it kind of spills over into the MGTOW world, which is, well, I'm gonna eliminate myself from the gene pool completely, as if that's some kind of major, you know, protest or something. I don't think that's the, yeah, the big signal that men think it is. But I, I totally understand and sympathize with where all these guys are coming from. But you're right. Um, some of it's very cringeworthy. There's some terms that I've learned over the years of doing this that I've heard again and again. Uh, one is spinning plates. I don't know if you're familiar with this term.

Oh yeah.

Which is when I was a kid, it was called being a bachelor.

Yes.

It's called dating around.

It's called dating.

Yeah. Let's not reinvent the wheel here.

Yeah.

Yeah. You got 7 different women on your phone that you're chatting. I keep using the 7 because when I met my wife, my now wife, I actually had 7 different women on my phone that I had varying degrees of relationships with. One I just had coffee with, you know, who cares? One that we've never met in person. This other one we've met a few times and dated and yada yada. It's very intoxicating and that pushes a lot of buttons and it— caveman buttons in a man to get all this validation from all 7 women at once. Holy shit, dude! That's everything! But it has its limit and what I learned from all those women is, you're exactly right with be very, very open and honest about what your intentions are. And what I found was, I was very open and honest about I am not ready for any kind of relationship because I realize in myself that I'm technically not ready for a relationship, but boy, do I love the company of women!

Yeah.

So, um, and when I was very open and honest with women about that, 9 times out of 10, they would just laugh at it and say, okay, when's our next date?

Right?

They're cool with that. Versus, oh no, baby, I'm not like that, and I'm not like those other guys, and sure, I'm all about it when you're like, wink wink, you know, we both know that. No, that doesn't go well. Why do that? Why try to play games? Why try to fool them? Pull one over on them. Um, that's sometimes part of that game stuff, which I don't necessarily like and appreciate. Be open and honest. We're all adults here. We all know what we want.

Yeah, and there's, there's, like you said, there's validity, there's some value in some of the, the work that the, the game guys do and being able to talk to women and approach and just be yourself and be authentic and stuff like that. And so there's definitely some value in, in that. But I think what we're just both saying is just be careful, because we're human beings and we're wired to connect. We all have feelings, and, um, and, and, you know, we're— we just need to be cognizant of that and, and, and kind and compassionate and caring and loving, because that's ultimately what I feel like we're all looking for from childhood, is just a loving relationship.

Yeah.

With some—

and let's get one thing out of the way, which is kind of a one of the foundational things of that world of the red pill and so forth, and which they have a very big point, is that it's a night and day different— the world of I'm a single woman looking for fun and sex, whatever that may be, versus I'm a single man. Two totally different worlds in terms of this woman down the road who's 300 pounds and puts herself out there in the world. I'll be damned if she doesn't have better luck in the sexual realm than a pretty average looking normal dude who puts himself out there, and he'll look at that and This is, you know, this is horrible. This is terrible. It's not fair. It's awful. And a lot of men go on and on and on about that, to which I just, I just throw my hands up and go, it is what it is. Good for her. I can get a man. Have a sister.

And I'll say, guys, welcome to manhood, to the role of evolutionary biology. That's just what we're given. And it always has been that way. And it's never ever going to change. It's just the way it is.

So it's the way it is.

One of the stories said about it, and you're pissed about it, then— you're just gonna be upset. You're wasting your breath.

One of the stories I often use is a woman can literally open her front door and yell out, "Who wants me? You got about 10 minutes!" And some asshole is gonna poke his head out the door and go, "I got 10 minutes!" If I did that, the police would come. They would take me away. It's just a totally different world.

Exactly, exactly! Hey, I wanted to— you brought up a couple of times codependency and I know that I was very codependent. And that was one of— another one of my ahas in going through the process post-divorce, failed relationships post-divorce, is coming upon and learning about, um, codependency. Or, or as Dr. Robert Glover calls it, Mr. Nice Guy, or being no more Mr. Nice Guy. It's basically repackaged codependency and how not to, uh, to be codependent anymore. And let's, let's talk about— let's talk a little bit about that, but let's also talk about why that can be a positive, because I feel now understanding my codependency, uh, in, in the origin of it in my, in my childhood, uh, how that is a positive now in, in my relationships and going forward with, uh, uh, with a woman. And, and then, you know, let's bring that around to all the other, some of the other positive things that, that we can learn in going through this divorce that you do and will bring to, uh, your future relationships.

I think the key there is that you know and you navigate your way around, or you pull yourself back. You pull the leash back and go, oh, I'm going a little bit too far into the needy thing there. It's, it's one thing to be a sweet, nice, empathetic guy, which I consider myself to be, but it's another to have zero boundaries and allow other people to dictate your emotions. And you're so— they must feel good in order for me to feel good, I must do more for them, I put my needs aside. Oh, now you're getting into, but into bad stuff. But if you recognize that and you're able to go, dude, pull back a little bit here. It's nice to have some of those good empathetic things and be able to pull back, but the thing is, is that most guys don't have that pullback mechanism, and most guys go into oh shit territory pretty quick. Yeah, and things can get pretty nasty. And if you are a codependent person, just by nature you're going to attract certain people that have some not so good traits about them.

Absolutely.

My, my mother is an extremely neurotic codependent person, and I'll be damned if every friend that she has doesn't take advantage of her. Can you go to the store and get me this while you're out? Can you do that? And I'm always like, and everyone around her is like, why don't you ever just say no, can't do it? She's like, yeah, but that would be terrible. I feel bad for the person. They're at home and they're not feeling well. And I'm just like, that is Perfect example of what a lot of behavior that I see in men. And so, you know, there's some good from it for sure. But oh boy, that can go down the wrong way.

Well, and I want to, I want to share one specific thing that I have found that has been probably one of the— like, I would have never ever hypothesized, right, when I, when I, when I got out of the— got out of my marriage and started dating, that this would be the one thing that I that I find that women find so incredibly attractive about somebody who's, who's worked through their, their codependency and knows how to state their feelings, state what their needs are, and hold those boundaries is that women like to be told no. Believe it or not, women like to be told no. Women like you to set boundaries. Uh, women like you to, to state what it is that, that you need. And even, you know, we we're not going to get into dynamics of dating or sexual dynamics or any of that, at least today. But they like for you to, to, to take the, you know, to, to be strong about that and say, this is what my needs are, this is where I want, and how you're— no, I don't like what you're doing, or no, I don't want to do that, or, or etc.

And if you're with a woman who, when boundaries are put up, very healthy, normal adult behavior is put up there, those boundaries, if they react in an extremely negative, violent, angry, whatever way— yeah, oh my goodness, well, big red flag right there!

Thank you!

That's what I said.

Thank you! Yeah, exactly.

Now, not wasting any more of my time. While your codependent guys that don't have those mechanisms and don't recognize that within themselves say, oh shit, I made her mad, I better not do that again. Right?

Which is not a good thing, right? Which goes then to that whole codependent philosophy of happy wife, happy life. Which we know is a recipe for absolute disaster in any kind of relationship that you at least want success in.

And you know, it's funny that we do package a lot of this stuff as this is special and unique for women. But really, when you think about it, this is universal across, you know, you have boundaries at work, you have boundaries with your friends, and if you don't, I'll be damned if they don't take advantage of that. That.

Sure.

The problem is that when we see that in women, it seems to be extra insidious and extra like, oh man, because we kind of thought as women as being better than that, you know, the, the sweeter, softer, more empathetic, more whatever, you know, the yin to our yang kind of thing. And when we see, ah shit, they're just like us, it's, uh, that's kind of what I always talk about. My one criticism of the red pill after looking into all that stuff for so long is like, this basically boils down to, damn it, these women are just like us!

Right? And let's, let's be—

and that pissed me off!

Yeah! And let's be clear, they're not any better at knowing or understanding their emotions. They're not. Now, they do emote better, but knowing and understanding them and emoting are completely different things. They just naturally emote, right? And we don't. Um, they, they're not necessarily better at communicating because just because they emote doesn't mean that's effective and positive communication. So again, and these, Ralph, these are not messages that we get in our society at all about, about men. It's like we've pedestalized women and their abilities, uh, to the point that we're— and then the flip side of that is we're just diminishing men and their abilities 100%. And my experience through this process is that they're not exactly what you said. They're, they're very similar. They're not any better. They're still figuring out. And I'd even, I'd even pose that they're having even more challenges with the dynamics and the changes that they're experiencing in, in being in the workplace.

And oh yeah, oh yeah.

In all the, the sexual dynamics, etc., like we talked about earlier, the the free sex and the hookup culture, etc. There's a lot more. They're processing a lot more. Guys, while we're changing, I think it's just not the curve that they're going through. And so thinking that, you know, going into this and this— and maybe this is kind of our final point— going into this thinking that they're, they're better or they've got some kind of advantage or they figure things out is is absolutely not true. And having gone through a divorce, being a parent, being, uh, having to take care of those responsibilities, uh, taking care of a human being, uh, knowing that you've been able to commit, knowing how to go through ups and downs like you have through this, this process, re— completely re— uh, revising your life to a new environment as a single dad, um, you know, having these huge responsibilities that you do are all absolutely phenomenal benefits in, in, in things that you should— you, I would say, be proud of in going into the dating marketplace post-divorce.

Yep, very well put. Exactly right, exactly right. It ain't easy, guys, but, um, going back to the old pyramid analogy, if you at least put in the effort to try and claw your way to the top. You don't have to be Mr. Perfect. That's another thing. There's so many guys out there like, if you're not tall, dark, and handsome and got a million bucks, forget it, dude. You're missing the point. Yeah, you're looking at the tippy tippy top of the pyramid, the 0.00001% that get all these girls. And of course, that's not you.

That's not—

that's none of us. That's like one dude. Don't judge yourself based on that. Um, you can have some measure of success at this. Depends on what your definition of success is. For most men, the definition of success is a lot of dates and at least some access to sexual whatever, if you so choose. And yeah, that's very reasonable for many of us. Confidence and everything else takes you very, very far. You don't necessarily have to have a million bucks. There is— I'll leave with this— there is some dummy who lives in his parents' basement who makes next to nothing and has no career aspirations. He doesn't really look all that great. But I'll be damned if he doesn't get laid! And there's something to be learned from that dummy. He's got a certain something. If he can do it, dude, you can do it too!

Yep, absolutely! And I will— I do want to put out a practical resource for the guys out there and it's one of the best ones that I've found. Unfortunately, I found it so many years later that I— this is something that I have— I have friends who have teenage sons. And I say you need to read this. And it's a book called The Tactical Guide to Women, uh, by Dr. Sean Smith. And I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's a clinical psychologist.

I've heard of the title, but I don't know.

Denver. Phenomenal, phenomenal book. It touches on a lot of what we talked about today, but it's a really, really good field, field guide, if you, if you will, to getting back, getting into dating in general. But, um, but if you're a divorced dad, uh, and you're in you just don't know how to date because it's been so long and things have changed like we talked about, it's a great resource and we'll put it in the show notes but it's the Tactical Guide to Women by Shawn Smith.

And another book, a couple of books there. One that I've suggested to a lot of guys is by Mark Manson called Models.

Okay!

That was his first big book. That was a good one and M-O-D-E-L-S and it's models not as in supermodels or fashion models.

Okay.

Um, another one is Dating Essentials by Dr. Robert Glover. Yeah, author of No More Mr. Nice Guy. That was his second book. Um, both of those are really good. And to your point about, uh, for teen boys, I'm actually working on a book myself, which I don't know when it's going to be out, don't ask. About 15,000 words into it right now as we speak, but it's aimed at, um, teenage boys that are just getting into the world of girls. And the working title is I Wish I Had This Book When I Was Your Age.

Awesome, I love it!

So I've been working on that for a while now.

Yeah, we'll keep, we'll keep teasing that one out there because you know what, I kind of, uh, you're, uh, Your audio is way down.

I don't know if you did something on your end.

Did it just change?

I didn't notice anything, but way down. I can barely hear you. Okay. So I don't know if that's going to show up on the video or not. Be a good edit point here.

Yeah. Well, that's all right. I normalize it anyway, so we'll fix it. Can you still, can you hear me?

Could be on my end. All right, sir.

Okay. Well, we're almost, we're almost wrapped up.

Let's wrap it up here.

Oh, okay.

So you just came back, so I'm good.

Yeah. All right.

You want to start over with the Zoom thing?

But let's just, let's just wrap up and tell us— the book's a good tease, but tell us a little bit more about how the listeners can get involved with the Dad Starting Over community.

Everything is at dadstartingover.com and go right to the homepage and you'll go through and scroll down and you'll see a link to the DSO fraternity, which is our members group. Scroll down further, you'll see access to all the articles. All of those are free. There's hundreds of them on there. We have a podcast, Dad Starting Over. You can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts. I guess, and go from there. And if it sounds like it's in general something you want to check out, you can check out the DSO Fraternity, the members group, for a month at $14.99 as of now. May go up here in the near future, but as of now it's $14.99 for one month. Try it out. If it's not for you, cancel and no big deal. But what we found is that most guys try it for a month or two and then they sign up for a year or maybe even a lifetime deal. And we have, uh, live Zoom meetings which are all recorded, which you have hundreds of hours of those you can listen to if you want. If you have a nice road trip coming up, we podcast just for members. We have articles just for members. We have online discussion groups just for members. All kinds of cool stuff.

Awesome. Yeah. And I just attest to the fact that you've got so many fantastic resources, great coaches. The blog is great. I like to read and many of your—

thank you—

podcast episodes and the guests that you bring in. And hopefully I'm going to get to Brofest one of these— one of these times.

Yeah.

And check out— check out everybody in person. And then if anybody wants to connect with the Divorced Advocate community. We're here to, to help dads create a healthier, less traumatic divorce. So if you're contemplating or going through divorce, then, um, check out our website at thedivorcedadvocate.com. We've got lots of resources there, including a divorce quiz that helps you gauge where you're at in your divorce, uh, compared to other people have gone through it. And then we just finally have the Divorced Advocate app that has launched that you can download at either the Apple or the Android store. You can go to the divorcedadvocateapp.com. Download it, it's 100% free right now while we're still working out some of the, the kinks on it and adding, uh, material to it. So check that out. And so I hope everybody enjoyed this episode. Ralph, I, I, I, this did not disappoint, my friend. Your, your knowledge is so awesome.

Thank you for having me.

Sincerely appreciate it. And, and I look forward to us, uh, doing this, uh, some more and providing some, hopefully some more value. So if you found value, share it with, uh, with a friend. Give a star rating, give comment, send us an email, just spread it on social media to help get this out and grow the podcast. All right.

Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it.

Take care, Ralph.

All right. Be the hero of your own movie. If your life was a movie and it started now, forget about whatever financial disasters you've had, personal failures, relationship failures, What would the hero of your life's movie do right now?