Dear DSO: "What About Scheduling Sex With My Avoidant Wife?"

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. All right, folks, we have a new Dear DSO entry on the website, and you can submit your own question or story at dadstartingover.com/dear. @DSO, and if it's a good one, I'm gonna respond here in video format. Today's entry comes from Lloyd Christmas. I think it's a Dumb and Dumber reference. Excellent. The subject line is Predictability. Lloyd says, I've been with my wife for 20 years, so finding new ways to initiate intimacy can be challenging. I've been a frat member for years. What Lloyd here is referring to is the DSO fraternity. You can learn more at dsofraternity.com. It's a private group for men only. So thank you, Lloyd, for joining. Appreciate it. And he's been a member for years. Excellent. So our relationship has improved dramatically because of what I have learned in the frat. Excellent. And I've become a much better man. Here is my question. With 3 kids, my wife and I don't get a ton of alone time. Understandable. I have a day off in the middle of the week. Naturally, that would be a good time for us to have some intimacy while the kids aren't around. However, it also makes it predictable, especially for an avoidant woman. Like most women, she is tired by the time the kids are in bed. At night and still tired in the morning. Any great suggestions on initiating intimacy with a woman who always expects it and, quote, knows that it's coming? Even if I get shot down, I don't pout and I move on. It is usually days before I try to initiate again. That in her mind is, quote, you have been trying to have sex with me 'all week,' end quote, 'even though I haven't made any advances for days.' Um, Lloyd, thank you for this. And again, thank you for joining and belonging to the DSO fraternity. Sounds like you're what we call one of the old guard, so excellent. Um, so you got a lot of things here that you, you've thrown some terms in here that I'll try to explain for our audience here. You just threw one word out here, uh, where you say an avoidant woman. So you have determined that through our material and other material by other folks like Dr. Psych Mom and so forth, that your wife is what we call an avoidant person. For those that don't know, there's this whole theory called attachment theory. Basically how you were raised as a kiddo and the relationship with mom and dad and so forth impacts your relationships with your romantic partners. If Lloyd here is like, Dare I say the majority of the guys in our Deus Ex fraternity, he is what we call an anxious attachment dude. He's pursuing, he wants more from the wife, he gets a lot of validation and, oh, his sense of worth and so forth from the love that he receives from his partner, which by the way, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. What is, quote, wrong with that is that when it goes into anxious territory is that anything and everything can be possibly construed as a danger to the relationship. I may lose this person. I got to reach out to them more. I got to chase them more. I got to fix things more. That's your anxious person. They're not very secure in their attachment. But what's ironic is that these anxious attachment type people tend to pair up with the polar opposite, which is your avoidant person, which is like, I don't want to talk about things. I don't want to fix things. I just want to be left alone. And often, not always, but often these people aren't the most sexy, loving, sweet type of people. They're not touchy, they're not all that stuff. And that's what the anxious person wants more than anything, because the more touching and the more sex and the more all that stuff makes them feel secure in the relationship. I know she's not going anywhere. I know we're a good thing here. So if Lloyd's like a lot of people, and he's kind of hinting at that, that's the dynamic in the relationship. And thanks to what he's learned in the, uh, in the DSO fraternity, he's done a better job of navigating his way through that dynamic. Now the question is, is that dynamic healthy to begin with? Not necessarily. Um, as long as both people are cognizant of their, I guess, their deficiencies, um, their, their, their wiring is probably a better word. Then, uh, you know, for example, Mr. Anxious knows, well, I need to pull back a little bit and give them space. I'm a little bit too much. And you 'Anybody, secure or avoidant, would be turned off by my behavior, so maybe I need to cool it with this. And it doesn't hurt to spend more time away from my partner. I'm a big blanket of anxiety on them and it's a major turnoff. And well, no wonder they're so avoidant.' So they back off. And often those people are like, 'Well, look at her. She's coming out more. She's more feminine and bubbly and sweet. And that's what I always wanted. Great.' And the avoidant partner needs to say, 'Well, based on my Past as a kiddo, I'm— I tend to put up walls to people around me. I've, I've done this a lot in my relationships, and it never ends well. So maybe I need to work on opening up more and breaking down my walls and becoming more vulnerable and stop worrying about losing my independence so much. This is a very common refrain from men. Men tend to be more avoidant than women, but as we've learned in our fraternity, not always. So, um, if both people are working on it, then it can be a healthy dynamic and two more secure. Both are coming more towards the center, towards secure. You know, you have your anxious, your avoidant, and in the middle is the good stuff, the secure. That's what we all want to be. So they both work towards coming to the middle and voilà, they have a healthy relationship. Well, but Lloyd here is saying one thing they've done to try and address the intimacy, physical intimacy, which is very important, is, hey, let's schedule this once a week. We— it's kid-free time. I got time off work. Perfect opportunity. We should reconnect as a couple. And, you know, you're not saying exactly, but I would assume you're talking about doing the deed. And that's not necessarily have to be do the deed, although that's by my estimation as a red-blooded American male, that that is a requirement. Otherwise, you know, we're not a couple, we're just buddies. But you can also do other types of physical intimacy, cuddling, handholding, heavy petting, as they call it. You don't have to necessarily go all the way. You know, it may be, maybe that time of the month for the woman, and it's not fair to her. She's very uncomfortable with having intercourse during that time. So we don't want to pressure or anything like that. Maybe she's not feeling well, who knows? But there are other things you can do to remain intimate. And it sounds like sometimes you approach her, I would assume, with trying to do, you know, the full act. And she's like, "No, it's not happening this week. I know it's our day. I know we've had this planned. I know you've been hinting at it for days leading up to this, but no, I don't want to do that." And you don't pout. You don't, you know, you move on, but obviously it hurts you because you're human and you're probably anxiously type of dude. But then you'll give it some time, give her some space, and you'll try again. And in her mind, she's like, "Dude, you've been trying to have sex with me all week." And you're like, "All week?" You know, I tried on our Wednesday, our middle of the, you know, our planned day. It didn't work out, so then I tried again on Saturday. That's not all week. But in her mind it is, because why? She's got that wiring. She's got that avoidant thing. And she sees your pursuing as kind of anxiously and kind of a turnoff. I'm assuming a lot here. Or it could very well be that she's just not the most sexual creature in the world. I don't know your full story. I don't know the history of you two. Maybe you had a very hot and heavy period for years and years, and then kids came along and things changed for you, as we know, pretty common. Or maybe it's always been kind of a, eh, kind of relationship, and you've always wanted more out of her. And instead of once a week, you would like it 5 times a week. Maybe you're one of those dudes. And it's just not happening. And if you go a week without it, you're probably like, what the hell am I doing? Um, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. It may not necessarily be though realistic with this partner. It's difficult for me to, uh, prescribe anything or try to give some, you know, definite advice here, like step 1, 2, 3, here's what you need to do, based on literally just 2 paragraphs of information here. But based on what you're telling me. Um, she's resistant. She's possibly not the most sexy creature in the world. You have to schedule, and even with the scheduling of once a week, which by the way, for me personally, and I don't represent every male or every human out there, but for me personally, um, ultimately that's the only perspective I have, is my own. Once a week wouldn't, wouldn't do it for me. I need more than that. And I don't think I'm bad for that. I don't think I'm, um, sex-crazed, perverted in any way, shape, or form. That's just, you know, some people need to have conversations and some people need this, some people need that, and other kinds of forms of intimacy and connection. And for me, sexual intimacy is very important. And once a week, not gonna do it for me. And sounds like you may be of the same wiring. Then the resolution is, well, how can we as a couple come to some kind of compromise where I can get my quote needs met. You don't feel put upon and you don't feel taken advantage of and you're not, you know, grossed out by me or whatever it may be. And we're both happy. So, but now we're getting into the territory of, are you asking somebody who really doesn't want to do that act to do it? And are you getting into some really unhealthy behavior? There's also the school of thought from a lot of, you'll see this from a lot of angry men online. Is that if your wife isn't completely and totally jumping your bones, like, on a frequent, regular basis, then, dude, she's just not into you. Let her go. Go get your girlfriend. Uh, to that I say, uh, if that's your stance, then you just threw out probably, oh, I don't know, 95% of marriages. Uh, long-term monogamy is difficult when it comes to the sexual intimacy thing. For most of us, not all of us, for most of us, being with a person for years and years with kids and all the other stress and everything else cannot compare sexual energy-wise to the pre-marriage, pre-kids honeymoon phase. That's always the— that honeymoon phase is always the sexiest and most active. And that is the one that really gets us men hooked in, isn't it? And let's— don't misconstrue that as me saying the woman is putting on an act. It's the old bait and switch. Nope. The, the women in these, uh, situations genuinely feel super duper turned on, genuinely are wanting to have, you know, intimate relations with their man that often. It's— they can't help themselves. It's overwhelming. Nature's taking over. The honeymoon phase. Nature's saying, go make babies and lots of them, please. And so, but then that dissipates with time, it fades with time. And once that honeymoon phase evaporates, some of us are left looking at a partner who is quote unquote very avoidant. And we're like, she's not the most loving, sweet, or sexual person in the world. And this really bothers me. And your more anxious types spend the next years or decades trying to pull some semblance of that honeymoon phase out of a woman who is just not wired for it. Until, of course, you get divorced, she's back on the market, and then you watch her become this super sexy, over-the-top creature. And that's not evil. That's not conniving. She's not doing the act again. It's nature taking over. Nature's saying, ah, cool, you're out of that relationship. Let me flood you with some chemicals to make you wanna go out and make more babies. It happens. Men see the same thing to a smaller degree, by my estimation. So Lloyd, uh, long-winded way of me saying you need to be realistic here. Who did you marry? What is it that you want out of this relationship? Can you honestly get that from this partner? If no— sounds like I'm talking about programming language here— if no, then what? Do you leave? Do you try to find some common ground? Do you turn this into a very pragmatic, cold kind of relationship, or arrangement rather, where it's, uh, wife, you know I want this, I know you don't, but we need to do this in between every Wednesday or else I'm out of here? That sounds very cold. And you know, we're talking about, I assume you have kids and all this other stuff. Uh, yeah, it says you have 3 kids, so that's not so easy, is it? Here's the thing, um, None of this is easy. There's no cookie cutter, flip a switch and everything will be great again and you're going to be super duper happy. No, it doesn't work that way. Life doesn't work that way. Um, let's be honest here. Why do you think we have the adult entertainment industry? It fills a niche. There's a, there's a need here. There are so many men out there in relationships, out of relationships, whatever, wherever they're at on the relationship spectrum that are not getting their quote-unquote needs met. And that adult entertainment and sex workers and everything else, those represent a very low-cost way of getting that need met. You can jump right from A to Z. You don't have to do all the shit in the middle. It's very appealing, especially to men in your position, which have to work and work and work to get that connection that you so desperately need. Um, Am I saying go out and get a girlfriend, go to the massage parlor, fire up the computer and look at the adult entertainment? I'm avoiding words here again that get videos penalized. Uh, no, but you got to be honest here, dude. What is it that you want? Are these wants healthy? Are these needs healthy? Um, you know, if you were to tell me I absolutely positively need it 7 days a week, well, I'd say it's a little compulsive, a little much. Maybe need to look at why is it that you need that? Is your libido always naturally that high? Is that a bad thing? Is it a good? I don't know. No judging here. But if you told me 2 or 3 times a week, I'd say, "Meh, that's pretty normal. Nothing wrong with that. Can you get that with wifey here? She sounds pretty resistant to that." Is that bad of her? No, that's just the way she's wired. Again, I'm assuming a lot here. 2 paragraphs of information. I would need to talk to you to get a lot more detailed information. Maybe if I post this in the group on the fraternity, that will generate some conversation, and maybe you'll come out of the woodwork and say, hey, that was me, and we can talk about this some more. That's the benefit of the group where we have, you know, hundreds and hundreds of guys from around the world that can talk these things out. And maybe we can do a live meeting on this where we all talk about it. But anyway, thank you, Lloyd, for presenting a really thought-provoking question here and situation, which is not uncommon. For guys in our group, the DSO Fraternity, and for guys out in the real world. I think a lot of men will nod and say, oof, that sounds familiar. So Lloyd, best of luck to you. Let's chat some more. And for those of you that want to join the group, dsofraternity.com, you can check it out there, or at dadstartingover.com and click on the DSO Fraternity logo. We also have a— go on Facebook, we have a deal where you can try it out for, uh, one month for free. I post the, the offer there quite a bit, so check that out. Um, but, uh, thanks again, Lloyd. I appreciate it. Thank you for submitting your question to Dear DSO.