DSO Fraternity Live Meeting (recorded 10/4/23)

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. I say we get started. Welcome everyone. For those that don't know, My name is Ralph Brewer Brewer. I go by the fake internet name, pen name, whatever you want to call it, of DSO, which stands for Dad Starting Over, which is not coincidentally the name of my website, business, enterprise, whatever you want to call it. DadStartingOver.com is the name of the website. And what you are on today is a live Zoom meeting, obviously. Uh, which we do several times a week, myself and other coaches, as we call them, within our private men's group that we call the DSO Fraternity. It's a private group for men only. One of the benefits is live meetings such as this where we all get together and talk about whatever. Um, a lot of the coaches have very specific, um, focused topics for their meetings. Uh, myself, I tend to do a pretty open meeting, but where guys bring their issues and we talk about them and hash them out. These meetings can go as long as a couple of hours. There's some more gentlemen coming in. Uh, that's one benefit of the group, these live meetings. Um, sticking with these live meetings, obviously— pardon me— obviously with close to 1,000 members worldwide, we don't have them all on a Zoom meeting. That logistically, that who wouldn't make any sense. We typically get around 20 or so that are actually attending the live meeting. For the rest that want to listen to the meeting after the fact, we do make that possible. We record all of these meetings and we upload them to a basically a private podcast, and you can listen to it from your phone, listen to it from an embedded web player on our DSO Fraternity website. It's all hidden behind a username and password, but we have over 500— it's got to be close to 600 hours of DSO Fraternity live meetings that have been recorded and archived, so you can listen to them. You can listen to them like a podcast, like any other podcast, available for members only. So if you're a guy that likes to listen to podcasts in the car, these become podcast episodes basically. Uh, in addition to DSO Fraternity meeting archives, we also have a DSO Fraternity podcast that's just monologues by myself and other gentlemen talking about different topics. We also have Uh, all the books that I wrote, of which there are 4 of them, if you want to listen to the audiobook version of those, you can at no extra charge, also via your phone's podcast app. Uh, we also have PDF versions that you can download and read the text if you prefer to do that, of each of my books, again, no additional charge. We also have, uh, let more gentlemen in here. Hello, welcome gentlemen, welcome, welcome. We also have, uh, in-person gatherings we get together. We have been— so far we've had gatherings in Nashville, Tennessee, Austin, Texas, Las Vegas, Nevada, and coming up here next year in April, we are getting together as a group, as a DSO fraternity, in New Orleans, Louisiana. So you can tell we pick some fun spots. So we get together for a weekend, hang out for a few nights.

It's awesome.

And, uh, in addition to that, what else do we have benefits-wise? Um, our guys the coaches that I mentioned, of which I believe we have 8 of us, I think, total. I can— I don't know why I always have trouble with that number. Believe 8 of us total. And, uh, there's one price for the general public if they want coaching from the DSO Fraternity team, and then there's another price for our DSO Fraternity members, and it's quite a bit cheaper, about half the price. Um, in addition to that, we also have, uh, video courses available that are roughly half the price for our DSO Fraternity members. What else am I forgetting? Anything else from, um, we have some of our DSO Fraternity coaches in attendance today, guys. If there's something that I'm forgetting, please feel free to chime in, introduce yourself, say hey, howdy. And if there's any other benefits— oh, duh, the most popular part of our group, I forgot this. We have a, um, a live, uh, forum. Uh, we use Facebook for a private members-only discussion forum which is live, like 24/7 for men around the world. It's very, very active. The last count we had, Facebook can give you stats if you want. I believe it was like 50-some-odd thousand discussions started since we did the, the private group. You know, holy crap, it's been like only 3 or 4 years now and 50,000 discussions is ridiculous. In addition to that, we have what's known as a a lifetime membership option. If you don't want to pay month to month to join the group, or you don't want to pay like a year in advance, you just want to put one lump sum down and forget about it, you don't want to get charged ever again for membership, we have a lifetime option for those guys. They're in a little special club, and we have a Discord server. So if you're a gamer or one of those guys that loves the old Discord world, we have a Discord server for the DSO Fraternity. Has all kinds of cool stuff on it, but we have set that aside for now for just our lifetime members. All right. And again, that is the most popular part of our group. Some guys say that the, the fee that they pay alone is that private group on Facebook and the Discord, it's worth the fee alone. That alone, not to mention all these meetings and all the other stuff I mentioned. So enough about that. How I typically start my meetings is I usually say, is anybody new to the group that would like to introduce themselves? Or new to one of my meetings? But we have so many guys here that are not members of the DSO fraternity. I'm going to say anyone and everyone that would like to say hello, tell your story, stuff that you're going through, anything at all, good news, bad news, asking for some advice, now's the time to, to raise your hand and say, hey, howdy. And, uh, looking at the messages here, um, and introduce yourself. Don't be shy, I'm not gonna bite. If you have a question of myself please feel free to ask it. That's why I'm here. And I'm going to open it to you guys. There is a little thing in Zoom that you can raise your hand if you want to do that. Or I'm going to say whoever wants to talk first and say howdy, please do so. Don't be shy. Usually takes a while for guys to kind of open up and then the floodgates open and then all kinds of dudes talk. So I'm going to say if any— we have any of our DSO team that would like to say hello first, maybe that'll, that'll get the ball rolling. I see we have another Ralph Brewer.

Hello, other Ralph.

There's not many of us out there. Welcome, brother.

I'll chime in real quick, bud.

How you doing? Yes, sir. Good, good. Scotty G, go ahead, sir.

Good, good. Yeah, it's funny that, uh, you forgot to mention the discussion groups, which, uh, you know, by far is the— by far the most popular thing that we do. A lot of guys have a tendency to, um, journal and just share it, uh, just general, uh, stuff. Some guys do like article stuff., like I do most of the time. Um, and, uh, it's a good venue. Uh, a lot of guys, there's a lot of anxious dudes out there and they need a, uh, they need an outlet and, uh, that's a perfect one for 'em. So, um, yeah, so I just wanted to jump in real quick. I just, uh, I was commuting in between my offices and, uh, so I, I've got to my other office here, but, uh, um, just wanted to welcome anybody. Uh, got a great group of guys, uh, lot of guys all around the world. It's really incredible just being a part of this organization. I've developed friendships from guys from Australia, from the Netherlands, from like Italy. Like, it's just crazy that we have all these guys all over the world going through the same thing. It really is. And most of the time, it's really just dudes don't have guys to talk to. They just, they don't have friends. You know, people are secluded, especially dads. You know, you're, you've got teenagers, you've got little kids, you're always doing activities. So a lot of your friendships go away. And it's a common thing that we see all around the world, honestly. And I'm no exception. You know, I've got a pretty tight circle of friends that I keep around me. But, but if you look at my father, and Ralph's father and all these other guys, like, they had their groups that they had, and that just doesn't— it just doesn't exist anymore, you know? It's huge for guys. It's huge, huge, huge, huge. So you vent on your dudes, not your wife, not, not the ladies in your life, and, uh, it's huge. So just wanted to add that to you.

You got it. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, you said some good stuff there. Um, you mentioned all of us guys going through the same thing, which begs the question, what is that exactly? Well, I guess you could say the human condition, being a dude in the modern-day society today, because we have guys that are married. Marriage probably sucks at some level. Um, for those that don't know, I wrote a book that got pretty popular, which brings most people to my world, and that book was called The Dead Bedroom Fix, which was my thoughts on sex and marriage and how to reignite things, because the number one pain point for married men is I'm not getting any, or not nearly as much as I think I should be. So we have a lot of guys from that world that come into this group. So they're like, I love my wife, I'm married, I would really like to stay that way if at all possible. How can I reignite things in the bedroom, reconnect us as a couple? So that's one subset of dudes. Then we have other dudes that are like, I've been through the wringer, shitty marriage, very dysfunctional, very toxic, whatever. I'm divorced now, I'm starting over, this is rough. Or guys, uh, I'm in the process of getting divorced, or I'm considering divorce, or, um, been divorced for a while, dating hasn't really panned out for me, I'm here to kind of become a better, uh, um, product out on the old dating market. So all of these, they sound like their own little individual silos of, of information, but we've learned over the years that we all have very similar issues and the solutions often is very similar amongst all of us. So you got a guy who's in a dead bedroom situation with his wife, um, many of the same things that he will learn from talking to hundreds of guys and who have experienced the same thing, many of the same things, many of the things he will learn are the same formula for, hey, divorce dating guy, here are some things to try to make yourself a more attractive dude out on the market. Um, same kind of things to, hey, guy going through a divorce, here's how to remain a more stoic, centered, uh, emotionally stronger individual as you're going through this really traumatic thing called divorce, and everything in between. Um, I apologize, we have, uh, Mike— I don't mean to call you out if you are not wanting to talk, but your microphone is unmuted in case you didn't know. Mike L. I'm not going to say the word or your last name because for anonymity's sake, for the audio recording of this which the public will hear. I don't know if you had something to share, sir.

No, I just introduced myself. Uh, I'm Mike LeBlanc. I'm coming in out of, uh, Ottawa, Canada. Um, I'm, uh, thankfully happy to say that I'm in a 5-year long-term committed divorce. Uh, and, uh, very happy that I'm in that position right now, actually, to be honest. Uh, I found a lot of, uh, solstice in, in your posts and everything in this group, and I'm, uh Uh, to build a bit more about myself, I'm an IT professional, but also by night I'm a stand-up comedian. Uh, I write a lot of my material based on my divorce, my experiences, uh, being a single dad, uh, all that comes with that, uh, that glory and such. So, uh, it's— I'll be honest, I'm kind of sourcing a bit of material from all you guys here and try to see where I can find that, that nice happy material that everyone can kind of relate to. It's, it's interesting to see a lot of you guys who kind of get the same experience, right? The, the usual sexless marriage, the, uh, the, the gaslighting, the, uh, the narcissistic abuse is pretty common amongst all of us guys, uh, and, and then having to rebuild your life afterwards. So I tend to write material that speaks to that truth, uh, and try to find that common ground that I know a lot of guys and even some women can completely agree with on that front as well too. So yeah, excellent.

Thank you so much. And I believe you are officially, sir, the first stand-up comedian we've had in our ranks. So welcome, that's awesome. Um, and yeah, I'm glad we're a good source material for— and you mentioned the, uh, the narcissistic abuse and so forth. Um, it's, uh, we're kind of going down a, uh, one of my favorite terms. You know, I've noticed after doing so many of these videos and stuff, listening to yourself talk so much, that you have what we call verbal crutches. Little, little catchphrases that you keep coming back to. And I'm to the point where I'm annoying myself, like, oh shit, I said that thing again for the 100th time. And that one of those things that I say is you're going down a rabbit hole. I did an interview with All Things Testosterone podcast the other day, and I must have said you're going down a rabbit hole. I said that phrase like 20 times in a 1-hour conversation. Like, oh God. But anyway, here I am saying it again. When we're talking about going experiencing narcissistic abuse, you're going down a rabbit hole of why do so many guys within our ranks at least say that they experience that. Is that because it is that common amongst the general public that we have narcissistic women that are abusing their partners? Technically, no, it's not that common. You know who it's common amongst? Uh, men experiencing relationship problems. It's kind of like, um, if we did a poll of this group, of our DSO fraternity in general, you know what we'd find? A relatively high number of guys that have ADHD, or who are neurodivergent, as they say these days, um, in general. So you could be on the autism spectrum, have ADHD, and all these other things in between. And if we did a poll, said, how many of you been formally diagnosed with this? I think we would be surprised, like, oh wow, it's relatively large number. And we can't deduce from that, uh, does that mean a lot of guys have ADHD that don't know? No, it's that we attract guys that have had relationship problems to the point where they are seeking out help from others, myself and, and the, the DSO fraternity group. So I don't want us to go down the rabbit hole of, uh, oh my gosh, all these women are narcissistic assholes, and you know, they're all— no, not necessarily. But that's something that a lot of us have in common. I was just speaking to a gentleman today, I don't know if he's on this call. If he is, I don't want to say his name out loud, starts with a B, um, where he endured not only a mother who had some very strong narcissistic tendencies, which left a lot of emotional, mental scars. But lo and behold, he married one. And that's not a coincidence. That's very, very common in the world of psychology. You sit down, you know, lay down on the proverbial couch with the psychiatrist or psychologist, they will say, tell me about mom and dad. And there's a reason they do that, because that's the source of a lot of our problems. So I imagine a lot of us who have those narc, as they call it, um, spouses or ex-spouses, we just got to look at, oh dear, mom and dad and grandma, grandpa, and we'll see a lot of the same type of stuff. That may be a springboard for our conversation. Is there anybody that can relate to any of that? Any stories to share in the world of dealing with a narcissistic abusive ex or current?

Or—

I'm opening the floor, guys. Nope, another gentleman coming in. Um, anyone would like to say hey, howdy, or share anything at all? Anything, uh, along the lines of dealing with an ex? Please don't be shy. Don't make me blab on incessantly here. It will be awkward for all of us. So anyone, anyone at all? I hear a noise.

I'm, I'm the other Ralph on here.

Welcome, other Ralph. Um, bless you, sir.

Uh, yeah, you know, I, I mean, that's an interesting thought because I, I think I'm— I was married for 31 years. I'm divorced. And, um, there's a lot of narcissistic things about my ex-wife, but part of me thinks that she was, she was broken and I wasn't strong enough maybe to give her what she needed. I was too much the nice guy. And, and I just started reading your book and it speaks to me a lot. And, um, so I, I don't know if she's narcissistic in all of her relationships, but definitely in my relationship, that's where it kind of went.

Um, you say, you say it went there. Does that mean that early in the relationship it was, everything was a-okay? Or when you look back, you're like, yeah, she kind of always has been that way?

Well, it really changed when we got married. I mean, I, I could see it. Almost day one. It just— and that was really something I could never understand and she could never explain.

And how, how did some of that behavior manifest? Looking back, you— can you give us examples?

In other words, well, I mean, like, physically, she was very aggressive, and it Oh, she couldn't get enough. And all of a sudden it was like there was nothing there, there to be got. And it just, it changed so quickly. And so I, I don't know, I'm still trying to figure it out.

You, you cut out for a moment there, at least on my headphones. I don't know if anybody else heard that, but if I understood you correctly, you were physically very connected sexually, and then that just kind of abruptly stopped. Yes. Okay. Well, you know, I actually, I just did a video that about this that will be coming out soon. That, for example, I don't know if you guys know a friend of mine, Dr. Psych Mom, Dr. Samantha Rodman-White, and she's big in the social media. She and I collaborate quite a bit. I love her stuff. I think a great deal of respect for her being a genuine psychologist and not just some bald numbskull like myself with a microphone. But one of the things she'll often say is, guys, um, the marriage bait and switch is super, super, super rare. And all you guys saying like, you know, this genuinely happened, like as soon as she said I do she cut it off, it's—

it's—

that rarely happens. That may in fact be the case for, you know, society in general. But again, when talking to guys who have severe relationship issues Um, we'll hear that again and again and again where a man will say, I'm telling you, dude, as soon as we said I do, she was a different human being. And these guys will say, I'm not bullshitting you. And some will even say, we got to the hotel, the honeymoon, we're exhausted from the reception and everything else, and I turned to my wife to give her a big hug and kiss, and she said, just so you know, We're not having sex anymore. I've heard that more than a dozen times from men. And like, really? It's like, yeah, the woman legitimately said, just so you know, that part of her life is over. And is that a narcissistic thing? That's too little to go on to give that kind of diagnosis, but it is part and parcel, or it does go along with that kind of mindset, because typically, who does a narcissistic person match up with? A codependent person, a person who's— who allows them to push them around and treat them like shit for years and years indefinitely. So in other words, that person knows, after presumably knowing you for months if not years prior to the marriage, that, oh, this is a person that I can say and do a lot of shit to, and they're just going to hang around no matter what. So that could be conceived of or construed as kind of a big test, the ultimate just so you know, dude, we're not doing the physical stuff anymore now that we're married. Um, let's just see how codependent this guy really is, in other words. And unfortunately for a lot of men, it's, well, okay, and they're just in shock, like, what happened? Because, uh, a guy who is not so codependent, a guy who's, um, dare I say, stronger mentally— and that may not be the fairest term in the world, but you know what I mean— there are the ones that would say Whoa, sister, timeout. What are you talking about?

What?

Why the hell would you— what? We need to talk about this. Number one, that's a really strange thing to say on the honeymoon of all damn things. What the hell are you talking about? Where did this come from? Are you okay? Did you have some kind of mental lapse? Because if what you're saying is true, I guess— do we, do we go back to the, the courthouse now and get an annulment? I mean, what are we talking about here? But if instead you're like, well, well, what am I supposed to do? Classic narcissistic codependent relationship. And I hear that quite a bit, some version of that. Doesn't necessarily have to be that cut and dry, but those, those moments exist. There's also what could be seen as a less, uh, nefarious version of that, which is a lot of people, men and women alike, A lot is a relative term. It's not unheard of for there to be a type of person, and how you categorize them, I'm not sure, which is as soon as we, man, woman, enter into a comfortable, for sure, normal thing— stable is probably the best— stable, normal, comfortable, secure thing, relationship, I, I just I shut down, like, emotionally, sexually, physically. I'm a shell of my former self. I need that excitement. I need that spontaneity. I need that uncertainty. I need that dating phase. I need that courtship phase. I need us to both go through that little mating dance. Does he like me? Does he not like me? Does she like me? You know, putting on the best act. As soon as we're for real and we're comfortable, I, I'm done. And I think a lot of Guys, especially guys that are your more codependent types and your more anxious-y types— that's the term we throw around a lot— match up with women like that. And these are the guys that, as soon as we married, she shut down. Or as soon as we got, uh, we cohabitated, moved in together, and sure as shit, usually it's the kids. The kids is the last blow. Like, as soon as we have that kid, everything got real and she just shut down.

She's just done.

Um, not unheard of. And those guys are typically very anxious-y, and they spend the next so many years chasing after that woman. 'Are you sure you don't love me? Are you sure? Are you sure?' Trying to do whatever dog and pony show to get this woman reignited to love him again instead of saying, 'This is really effed up, I'm out of here,' or, 'We need to get help with this,' or, 'You women are severely broken.' They normally don't take that route. Instead, they just hang around and, like a little dog, just chasing after mommy. It's not good. Um, but those dynamics exist quite a bit within our group, unfortunately. And, uh, the grand lesson in all this is basically we need to teach a lot of guys self-worth. A lot of guys don't like themselves a whole hell of a lot. That's why they put up with a lot of bullshit like this. And it is bullshit. Um, there is one, uh, I guess, school of thought that, uh, these people these women that are these— I guess you could call them hyper-avoidant types— that really shut down when the— when things get real in the relationship. They don't want anything to do with the guy anymore. They just— they don't— they're not huggy, lovey, touchy, kissy people at all. You know, often if you look at these people, men and women alike— and by the way, pause there— when you— when we're talking about these avoidant types, um, if you look at man-woman, who is most likely to be the avoidant type? It's the man. Men are typically avoidant. Uh, I don't, I don't like to talk about stuff like that. I don't like to get really emotional. I don't want to, you know, the woman starts in about her day and we're like, oh God, that kind of— that's a very typical avoidant man thing. Well, we've learned that a lot of women are very avoidant as well. Not as much as men, but they're out there. We hear about them all the time. And, um, where was I going with that? So the school of thought is they're essentially broken, if you will, but they're not unfixable. Um, it takes a lot of effort, takes a lot of therapy. They have to be the person to say, I need help, which is relatively rare for those type of people, and I'm gonna go get help. And be patient with me, partner, as I work through this, because it's going to take—

drum roll—

years to fix this programming that I have within me. So you, Mr. Anxiousy Guy, who's been chasing me for all these years, you got to be patient as I work through all this stuff. There's school of thought that it's marriage, it's commitment, it's all that good stuff through thick and thin, sickness and in health. This is one of those moments. Better buckle up, dude, and be patient. I don't know what you guys think, if that's the right prescription for such a thing. What I've seen though, what works against that Mr. Anxiousy Dude isn't just sitting back and saying, okay, I'll just sit back and wait and see if you, wife, get better. Mr. Anxiousy Dude, if he's doing what he's supposed to do, like working with our group or a therapist or whatever, he's getting better and he's working on his anxieties and his anxious attachment, and he's not chasing anymore. And a guy who's not chasing anymore and working on himself, probably working on himself physically which a lot of anxious people should do— exercise, exert yourself, hit the gym, lift heavy things, put it back down, that kind of stuff— as well as working on his up in the old noggin, all that stuff. His patience for all this stuff, this avoidant and all that, goes down. So his sense of value goes up and patience goes down every freaking time. So we have that working against the whole through thick and thin, sickness and in health, and all sorts of stuff. So that is a very tough dynamic to overcome, whether it's the man or woman, whatever it may be. The old anxious avoidant, it's not unfixable technically, but it's by my estimation damn near close because you have so much stuff working against you. So, um, for those of you in that that are on this call or listening in on this and you are experiencing that, oh boy, you better be patient. It's going to take a lot of work. On both your parts. And, um, you in the end, from what I've seen, may come to the conclusion of, yeah, this, this just ain't gonna work. From the beginning, this relationship probably shouldn't have started. When we think back on it, we were two opposites that are just two dysfunctional opposites. Mr. Anxiousy and Miss Avoidant. Of course you get together, opposites attract, that's what happens. Or the extreme, Mr. Codependent and Miss Narcissistic, and you guys get together and then you both realize in the end, or one of you usually realizes, oh shit, this, we shouldn't have done this. 'Oh yeah, we had 3 kids and a house and a lot of debt and everything else as a result, but we better call her quits now.' Unfortunately, that's why a lot of people in those situations come to that conclusion. I see I've been blabbing a lot, which I am prone to do. Like most men, I love to hear myself talk. Um, but I see Mike and Brandon both have their microphones unmuted. I'm going to start at the bottom with Mike. I didn't know if you wanted something to say or if you were, uh, left from last time.

Yeah, I figure I could, I could chime in on my experience because, uh, I think it's something to say. Obviously the topic of narcissistic abuse comes in and, and it's very, um, you have to be very clear when we mention something like that. Uh, from my experience and what I've been through is very real and valid in that, uh, when it was first highlighted to me that I was in a narcissistic abusive relationship came from couples therapy. Um, it came from a licensed therapist saying, hey, listen, and she pulled me aside and said, hey, listen, something, something's off here, um, and you, you really need to, uh, look into this aspect of a relationship dynamic. And, and unfortunately, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with the way things are going right now, there really isn't any solving this unless she really does highlight it. And most narcissists don't see themselves as a problem whatsoever. So, uh, that her seeking help— and they're, they actually are really good at avoiding detection from narcissists, uh, being narcissists within one-to-one, uh, therapy. So a lot of times even going in, they'll, they'll be told a whole different thing, uh, their anxiety, or you've got, you know, codependency problems and so on and so forth. But reality is, um, but if I can sort of define what, you know, you've described a lot of situations where, where, you know, relationships can get fall down a rabbit hole of such with regards to, uh, to, um, you know, the loss of, uh, the spark or so on and so forth, right? But narcissistic abuse really in, in particular my experience came from this idea that you have someone who is essentially broken, um, has narcissistic tendencies, and you can be in a narcissistic relationship with a narcissist and not experience any abuse. That's, that's also a common thing as well too. Um, but really comes down to, think of it as kind of like you're being groomed. Uh, you're part of a relationship, you're being groomed into this relationship, you're giving what's called love bombs. You're basically, someone is really good at the beginning, it seems absolutely perfect,. And for someone like me at that time who was a lot less confident and needed someone to really kind of make me feel good at that time, she was perfect, you know. And, and, and it really kind of— it, it— and then, but what happens, it's kind of like, you know, the old fable of the, of the frog in the, the pot of water that slowly boiled. And eventually, you know, while I wasn't confident at the time, you do kind of get wrapped up to it and you start getting invested and pot invested in this relationship. And eventually It gets to the point where, you know, okay, well, I guess I got to get married. I guess I got to have kids. I guess I got to have all these things. And you don't realize you're being boiled alive in that moment until— and one thing that really kind of highlights, obviously, is obviously couples therapy for us was triggered by obviously a need. It was triggered by me, a need to try to solve some of our problems, and then eventually became infidelity and so on and so forth. And that's one thing that narcissistic abuse really tends to end on is the discard phase. So you have that ramp-up phase where you start the love bombing phase. And then that slow tailoring, almost like a grooming of, oh, okay, and then break down and break down and break down and break down till you don't realize you're in that scenario. Like, I'm already a pretty confident person, I'm pretty straightforward, um, but I didn't realize I was even in that scenario, uh, until way later in the relationship. And then finally there's that, that initial, that total discard phase. That's where, where a narcissist doesn't see themselves in this relationship anymore and will just you're nobody to me anymore, and I will take you for all you're worth and take all your money and make sure that you get nothing and blah, blah, blah. And, and really comes down to that, that blow up the, the, you know, uh, blow up the, the camp rather than, than let it get taken over kind of thing, right? So, um, that was my experience. Uh, I know from my side, I, I, uh, have talking about— I've since it's been 5 years, so I've been through a lot of therapy. Uh, I've gained a lot of confidence, just like what you prescribe as well to get, you know, work on yourself, work on your mental health, work on your physical health. Um, I'm very lucky in that I'm a single man, but I'm absolutely happy being a single man, and I have no problems there either. And you're right, there's that dynamic where I did try to get some help prior to when the, the, the relationship ended. And there's that dynamic where you start getting more and more confident, and your, uh, your, um, patience starts waning thin. And also, at the same time, when a narcissistic abuser is in that situation, I experience is they don't want you to do that. They don't want you to see you succeed because they feel threatened. They're lucky to have you in this little bubble and have you controlled and have everything sort of tailored for you. They want you to keep you in line. And once you start building a backbone, which is what I kind of describe it as, you start building a backbone for yourself and start standing up for yourself and start healing yourself, they start seeing threatened. And that's, and that's where the abuse actually starts to get worse and worse. Uh, the demeaning, the belittling, the, uh, the constant nagging, the so on, you know, everything around that. And so I experienced that way, and that's kind of how it ended really, was me helping myself, getting a backbone, her getting patience, you know, losing patience, me losing patience, her losing patience with my newfound confidence. And then suddenly it just destroyed itself, right? She went ahead and just pulled the pin on the grenade and said, you know, forget it, let's just do this. And, and, and that's where, you know, the long-term effects of that kind of bury in. But yeah, I know from my side, I have talked about it openly. I've actually been on a blog for— I don't want to pipe my own blog, but I have a blog that discusses my experience and talks I've had a lot of people talk to me on the narcissistic abuse, uh, um, aspect from the men's side, which is not very talked about. Um, and it's something that, you know, a lot of women experience it, a lot of children experience it from their parents. Um, but the opposite side is not very talked about. And, and because it's so insidious in that it's not physical abuse, and no one really, really cares at that point, so it's not regarded as the same way. Most, most other men, and sometimes even women, will say, you know, well, you should— you're a man, you should be able to suck it up. And they forget that, you know, we have feelings, we have emotions, and we're doing our best to try to maintain a stable household and to make sure our household is, is, you know, we're just doing our best on that front, uh, and we do what we can. And good men are like that. And, and when you're abused, you're abused.

It's—

there's really no degree of whether or not it's light or heavy.

It's—

you are, and, and it's what the effect is at the end of it. So that's my experience and what I can speak to specifically to narcissistic abuse.

So much good stuff there. Thank you so very much. Have you done anything in, in the form of coaching or counseling of men?

Not in particular. I did, um, when I was in therapy, my therapist, uh, did reference my blog, which I outlined a long blog with regards to this. And it's, it's kind of, it talks a bit about my abuse and my recovery and also my, my, um, my working it into comedy and making fun and light of it, right? So I, I've found a fair bit of success on that front. So, um, I do have a blog on that. I'm not, again, I'm not going to be punching my own blog here on this one, but, uh, again That is, that is something that, that, um, my therapist had me talk to other people, and she's actually referenced my blog to some of her, her other patients because she was experiencing more and more of men coming forward. I think about 5, 6 years ago we saw kind of an influx of mental health problems from men, um, and, and I, I think only in the last 10 years you, you look— I assume from the stats perspective, uh, there have always been men going to therapy, but it was always in the worst case scenario. Right? And now we're actually seeing men who are doing it as part of their health check, right? Going in and getting themselves helped up and healed up as part of their journey to, uh, better themselves. Um, and it's actually nice to say that you're in therapy. I make jokes about it on stage all the time about the— how I'm in therapy and what that's like, and I talk about my therapy sessions and so forth. And, and, and it's normalized more, much more in the last 10 years than it ever has been, in my opinion. Um, and so she was seeing a big influx of that, and, and her trend was obviously seeing a lot of these men who were in that situation of being in an abusive relationship, or even just being in what the situations— what a lot of men in your group are experiencing as well too, which is this sort of like limbo of unhappiness and, and inability to communicate and inability to express and, and validate that their emotions such as sexual needs and so on so forth are just being dismissed all the time. Uh, and that's also part of that as well too. So I speak to that as well too. So yeah, that's— but I've never done a one-on-one coaching. Um, I have spoken on podcasts with to divorce and so forth before in the past, but nothing beyond that.

We should— yeah, shoot me an email, uh, dso@dadstartingover.com, because you have a wealth of information, obviously, and experience. So there's got to be some way we could help tap into your wealth of information and help all of our group. And, you know, you'd be a great resource for that in some way, whatever that may be. So yeah, shoot me an email, we'll figure something out. So thanks again so much. I mean, like I say, you As you're talking, I'm just like, oh, there's, there's an idea to talk about. Oh, there's something to talk about. There's one thing you mentioned though, two points I wanted to go back to was, in your experience, hindsight being 20/20, even though there was love bombing, even though she seemed to be perfect at the beginning, do you go, I should have seen this coming because fill in the blank, or no, she was genuinely that good of an actor?

Uh, hindsight's 20/20. You see, you do see the red flags after the fact, right? It's, it's one of those things where, um, you don't even know it's a red flag until you realize it afterwards, and that only comes after the fact, right? So, uh, I, I— to use the term red flag is a pretty, pretty generic term, but you do see signs of small things. Um, and yes, at the beginning you do see a lot of the great quality I mean, I won't dismiss her. She had great qualities at the beginning, probably still does to this day. I'm sure whoever she's abusing now is doing great, uh, and enjoying it. Um, but, uh, long term, in terms of people who, you know, experience this, is, is the, is the systematic— you could tell it's very intentional, and you can tell that there's absolutely no remorse or any intention to, to acknowledge that in the long term. And There were definitely signs early on in the relationship, and I think how I got into this relationship was— I could explain at some point another time, but was kind of in a position of I kind of needed to be in that relationship, and it was kind of arranged— not arranged, but like, you know, I mean, it just fell into place like that, and I didn't have very many options, unfortunately. And so that's kind of where it fell into, and as I figured out, I might as well just commit and so forth. So looking back on that, that initial setup was probably the, the wrong choice. And then obviously the eventual breakdown and the inability to, to recognize these things and stand up for myself at that time, right? I didn't have the confidence like I do now. So it's, it's one of those things. But yeah, you're right, there are— hindsight's 20/20. You don't see them until way after. And then when you're out of that fog, when you've broken out of that abuse and you're really clear, um, you really do see— the fog goes away and you really do see how it was back then. And you feel like, oh, how could I have ever let myself get into that?

Situation.

Like, you know, you won't get into it now, and you're going to do the work that it takes to heal yourself to get back and to never get into that situation. But you look back and you say, wow, I really was into it, right? Um, the, the most telling moment is really when, after the fact, um, when you end up seeking your friend group or your support system, and a lot of people will come up to me and say, we never really liked her. Yes, you know, we— there, there— we— she was awful to you. We've noticed things that were just awful. We never said anything because we thought that, you know, we knew you were kind of— you knew was going on. And you, you know, and then it's almost like, we couldn't tell me then, like, and so that really kind of defined a lot of the, the framing after the fact.

Yeah, that is, uh, something so many guys in that position hear is from their friends. And they're like, yeah, we never really liked the woman all that much. Um, do you remember that time she did that one thing to you? And I was always like, oh, my wife and I both said, oh my gosh, that's not good. And you were Dude, could you have said something at the time? I think it's uniquely the male experience where people say, right or wrong, um, I don't, I don't think Ralph Brewer, John Brewer, whoever would want us to bring this up. Let's just stay out of his business. It's, it's his thing. It's his thing to worry about. Who are we to say? Yeah, yeah. Versus flip the genders. I think people are more prone to pull Sally aside. And say, Sally, sweetheart, you got to run for your life. This is bad. This is, this is no good. He's a dick. He's a jerk. He's a, he's an asshole. You need to run. For whatever reason, us men don't get those kind of speeches. And maybe society in general needs to be more, uh, open to, uh, rescuing men. There you go. What man wants to be rescued? And, uh, helping the dudes out, saying, uh, hey buddy, you're obviously caught in the fog of this relationship here. You need to open your eyes a little bit here. That's pretty rare stuff. Um, and the second point I wanted to bring up earlier was you mentioned, um, we get caught in this duty as men to provide and do all these things that I always say we get caught up in, in the, um, we get caught up in the machine of marriage and family, and it's very easy to lose ourselves. And to really, when you're, when you're caught in the machine, you're just so hyper-focused. I think women can probably attest to it, but we have a little different flavor of this. Um, I'm so caught up in this machine of I have to— just thinking back to my own personal first relationship— not only am I working my butt off and commuting 2 hours every day— well, there's just a giant swath of time right there— um, now when I come home, I have the home domestic duties, and now I have to take this kid to soccer, coach soccer game. Now I have to come home, do this thing, and then take this kid to other event. Next thing you know, it's, it's 9:30 at night and next thing you know, you have maybe a half hour to yourself before you pass out in bed. That's— you string X number of days, weeks, months, years together like that, and it's very simple when you're caught again in that machine of the relationship to lose sight of the softer things. Like, when I said this thing the other day, she completely dismissed it, and come to think of it, she always dismisses everything I say, and come to think of it, she always belittles me when I do these kind of things. And come to think of it, her mother and father are the same way. And come to think— you know, you never have all these little come to think of it moments because you're just so goddamn busy with everything, with life. You're caught in the machine. And that's where the old friend group comes in. That's where the social group comes in, puts their arm around you and say, Ralph Brewer, let's go out and have a beer. I'm worried about you. Um, that unfortunately is pretty rare, but not in these kind of groups that we're in, thank goodness. That's why we have these groups. Another plug, guys, Um, what you're in right now, for those of you who have just joined us, uh, you're in a, an example of a live meeting for our DSO fraternity group. This is how these things go. This is one of several a week that we have every single week. We have over probably by this time 600 hours of these meetings recorded that you can go back and listen to, in addition to a whole bunch of other benefits that I won't get into. dsofraternity.com. We would love to have you guys in the group. Dsophraternity.com. Um, guys like myself and other guys on the DSO fraternity team who have been there and done that, and we're just trying to reach out and help you dudes. And there is a cost involved in putting these things on and, and all the logistics and all the IT, this and that.

It's—

this is a relatively expensive thing to keep going for so many men all over the world, to host these meetings, to record all these meetings, to have a members-only podcast, to have a private discussion group, to have a Discord server, to have all these— the books available to you guys at no extra cost, and audiobooks, and the conferences that we put on. All these things do unfortunately cost money. I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and all this is for free, but that's— I have yet to find that magic formula. So yes, there is a cost involved in this, but for all that you get, I'd like to think that it's a pretty big bargain for what you get.

There are a lot of—

from what I've seen, we are not the only such group in the world. Maybe that's not the smartest business thing in the world for me to say, but let's be honest here. There are other men's groups, fraternal groups if you want to call them that, and they've— I've done the research and holy shitballs, they are proud of their groups. I've had a lot of guys say, I came from XYZ group and I just got done spending, you know, $15,000 on my— I beg your pardon. But yeah, they're not afraid to charge thousands and thousands of bucks for seminars and get-togethers and everything. We're not there yet. Maybe one day, but I'm trying to keep this as, as, you know, low cost as humanly possible and still be able to help you guys. So check it out, dsofraternity.com or dadstartingover.com. Uh, Dorian— whoops, scroll off the page— uh, men are the romantic ones in the relationship, he says. This has caused so many issues in men's lives. Would you guys agree with that? That's a phrase that I've used quite a bit. Um, based on my experience and talking to so many men, it, uh, that's, that's my assessment. It, it, uh, contrary to what we may think, men tend to be, from what I've seen, the romantics in a relationship. Meaning, even given all this BS that is thrown at us, given all this turmoil, all the stress and everything else, we still say, I'm committed to her for life. So a lot of us are like that. And, um, what we have seen is that women tend to be, um, we could say much to their detriment, we could use it as an insult, but in a lot of cases it's much to their credit, more pragmatic about relationships. She's in a relationship with this guy and he loses his job and he doesn't really seem to be too keen on getting a new one, and he sits on his butt quite a bit and he's playing video games or whatever, and she lasts a whopping 3 months before she says, I'm out of here. And everyone says, uh, sweetheart, you're— maybe give the guy a little bit more time, get back on his feet. And she's like, no, I've seen what I need to see here. He's shown me his true colors. I'm out of here. Um, little, uh, what's the word, dramatic, little, um, whatever. We can make the case for good or bad, but if we can take a little bit of that pragmatism and apply it to our own lives, where in Mike's case and everyone else's case, where we go, wait a minute, what was that you just said? And really, um, really puts things under the microscope or under the magnifying glass of like, let me stop here because my gut is telling me something's off here. Um, that is something that has for whatever reason been shamed out of a lot of guys, like, no, you need to you know, stop questioning things, and you need to be a good little provider man, and you need to be a, a good dude and overlook a lot of these quote red flags and go back to tending to the family machine. And I'm here to tell you that's a recipe for disaster. There's nothing wrong with saying, yeah, timeout, wait, what just happened there? What's, what's going on? And I talk about this in my book, uh, Real Talk, which is a book I wrote for young men. And there's a whole section on trust your gut because your gut has saved a lot of men. And a lot of us looking back on it going, oh, I wish I would've trusted my gut back then when I made that one left turn instead of the right turn in life. I knew I shouldn't have made that right turn, but I did it anyway.

Okay.

Listen to your gut. It's there for a reason. It's, it's, it's evolved over thousands of years. Um, uh, DJ says just look at the cost of therapy and compare that to the cost of coaching once you're a frat member. Um, not to belittle therapists in any way, shape, or form, DJ, but I, I get what you're saying here. A good therapist is— I often say is worth their weight in gold. A good one that knows what they're doing, holds both sides accountable. But I gotta tell you, uh, I don't know what percentage But from the guys that I personally speak to, I've heard a lot of therapy horror stories of they go in and these men leave these sessions basically crawling out on all fours because they felt like they got the shit beat out of them. And, uh, and they spend thousands of dollars on such sessions over months and months and months only to come out saying, I think I'm just a big pile of shit and I, I guess I deserve everything I got. I don't know what I got out of that session. And then they talk to me and spend, you know, $100 or so because they're a frat member, and they say, um, I got more out of this hour than I got out of 6 months of therapy. Now, that's not saying I am an amazing coach and I just have all this knowledge. No, I think it's more of a testament to just how shitty a lot of therapy is, unfortunately. I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to, men, where, um, I say something like, um, Well, tell me about Dad. And, uh, he'll go on and on about his father, and he'll end his story with, you know, um, no one's really asked me about my dad before and how he was. Uh, that's— this is really— this is a real big aha moment for you. I'm like, well, hold on, you just got done telling me you've been in 3 years of therapy and Dad has never come up? It's like, nope. I was like, that's the first thing I thought of was your relationship with your father. How has that never come up? Well, we're more concerned with, uh, things about the marriage and fixing the marriage and not so much about about the stuff that happened to me in childhood. I'm like, dude, what happened to you in childhood is pretty much the reason you're in this shitty situation that you're in now. Same for her. This is everything. And again, I guess apparently it doesn't take much to call yourself a therapist these days because there's a, again, a lot of shitty ones out there. So that's the, the perspective that DJ here has is, um, for a lot of guys, uh, that we talk to, I have spoken to men where I say Timeout. This kind of goes beyond the scope of coaching, of talking to a dude that's been through divorce and so forth. I, you know, I appreciate it, dude. I love taking your money and I love to help you, but we need to say timeout here. You need to go talk to a professional because their anxiety and their depression and so forth is pretty much off the charts and there's nothing I can do to get through to him. And I can recognize pretty quick this goes beyond my pay grade. Those, those things happen. Um, so that's what therapy and that type of professional level of counseling— psychiatrists, psychologists— that's what those people are for. And again, if you got a good one, hallelujah, because they're, they're really a lifesaver, genuinely. Or it could be, you know, you need some kind of pharmaceutical help. If, um, there's a lot of stigma behind taking a pill, but if the pill comes between you and putting a gun in your mouth, take the damn pill. There's no harm in it. It's not something you have to continue for the rest of your life. It doesn't make you a lesser person, but it just means you're saying, eh, I need a little help here. And that's a cool thing. There's nothing wrong with that. But yes, that doesn't discount the importance of your health and sleeping well and eating right and stop drinking, stop smoking and exercise. All those things really, really help as well. But for, like DJ said, for some guys, like, why didn't I join this earlier? I could have saved myself thousands of thousands of bucks and lots of months and years of therapy. Not everybody, but we hear that. Um, Eric says, this group has changed my life and my relationship. My marriage is not out of the woods yet, but there is hope. Well, excellent. Uh, men are romantic, women are pragmatic. Yeah, we talked about that. Um, there's still value in therapy. However, you have to frame it in the sense of solving your underlying issues that cause the problem in the first place. That's everything. Uh, we got another comment, then I'll come to you here in a moment here, Dorian. Uh, Ryan says, uh, hmm, we're just moved and are currently getting a house for sale with 3 small kids, for example. Oh, it's caught— but getting caught in the machine, I guess you're talking about. Um, yeah. Um, John says, if any of you are on the fence about joining us, take the plunge. Uh, this frat is nothing but men aiming to be the absolute best men that they can be and will push you to do the same. Very well put. Thank you so much for that.

Yes.

Having people hold you accountable, it's relatively rare thing. There's a lot of people in our world just wanna make you feel good and will tell you like, you're doing good, buddy. And well, you need people just to go, dude, what the hell you doing? You know, yank your head outta your ass, cut it out. No, you're not getting anywhere with that. That's loser talk. Or enough talk, you actually do. That's something that we have to get on a lot of guys about. You know, they read 1,000 books and watch 100 YouTube videos, but they don't actually do anything with it. So that's where dudes come in to give you a little push. Um, Mark, you are unmuted. I'm going to mute you there, buddy. Uh, Brian says, I have a hard time identifying avoidant behavior when there's a lot going on in our lives. We have a dynamic where when times get stressful, she withdraws sexually. That's your avoidant. And it's difficult to address when she does have a valid excuse. In that it's a stressful time. And then Dwayne with some advice there. Um, yeah, uh, your avoidant type shuts down any kind of conflict of any kind. It's just like, sure, they just become like a zombie of themselves and leave me alone, I'm going to the other room, don't bother me. And certainly that means I don't want to take my clothes off and get intimate with you. No, that's the last thing on my mind right now. This is your typical avoidant talking, and it's very tough when you're a guy that's You don't necessarily have to be an anxious dude. You could just be a dude, period, who, who likes that physical connection, an emotional connection. We basically, we need it or else we go nuts. And when you got a person that's just sitting there like a statue going, nope, leave me alone, not good. And you're right, she has to under— she has to address the underlying issues. Why do you cope in that way? Don't you see how that is detrimental to our relationship as a man and woman? Don't you see how that's driving us further apart? Is there a way you can cope in other ways instead of shutting down? Go to the gym. I got the kids. 2 hours. Go, go hang out with your friends. Go for a walk. Go for a hike. Talk to a therapist. Again, I'll hold down the fort. Go take care of yourself, open. Don't just hole up in your, in your office here or your bedroom or whatever and ignore us and meet myself and the kids. It's not good. Um, uh, so, and then what Ryan says is, uh, haven't been— haven't had sex in a month. That's not good. And I haven't addressed it with her. Um, with everything going on, again, you're getting caught in the machine, right, of the, the marriage and the family. It's easy to let that shit slide, but next thing you know, before it— before you know, it becomes 2 months, 3 months, a year, and then you're like, whoa, then it's almost too far gone. Um, and then, uh, Brandon says there are people that breaks in groups like this, stress equals no sexual desires, and others have sexual feelings no matter the surrounding situation. Yeah, it's called men and women. All right, that's kind of shitty of me, but, um, uh, most women, uh, this is up for debate, this is my contention as well as Dr. Psych Mom and a lot of other authors and psychologists and so forth will say that when you're in the confines of Typical monogamous long-term relationship, women, their sexual desire knob tends to get turned down, certainly less than what it used to be. And I often use the term in terms of numbers. Let's say it was an 8 out of 10 before when you guys were dating, and now it's like a 3. That's a lot of women. Men, it's— it was a 10 before and now it's like an 8.5.

That's—

that illustrates the difference. So we could be like, I just got fired from my job, I'm not sure how we're gonna, you know, pay the bills. And the wife goes, would you like a blowjob? And you're like, yes. Like now? Like, okay. Yeah. Women typically aren't wired that way. If I come and tell the wife I just got fired and all this stuff, she's gonna be like, I'm very stressed. The security of our life and everything. I, what about the kids? And, oh, you get, no, no, don't touch me. Don't, I can't even think about that right now. Just wildly different. Um, Steve says he knew he had the right therapist when he was told it was okay to be angry. There you go. Um, here's a good point. Mike says it's important to learn and know that you can fire your therapist and find the one that you need. Um, you know, I wonder if, if you're a codependent, anxious-y type of guy, if you tend to Mr. People Pleaser, firing your therapist, the one that is there to help you, may be a really difficult thing to do. Um, people pleaser codependent types don't like to break up with people. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want to make them feel bad. I don't want to come across as the asshole. So I would think going to a person and paying them money and saying, please help me with my relationship issues, and then determining, oh wow, they really suck at this, or we're not a good match. That's a really tough breakup to do. Um, I guess you could just not show up for your next session if you're, if you're afraid of conflict, which a lot of guys in that position are. But, uh, yeah, we always have to remember, just like with relationships, romantic, friends, whatever, your therapist, you can get rid of them too, saying, this ain't gonna work, dude or gal. Um, that's always on the table. Uh, I have blabbed on and on. Brandon, please go ahead, sir. Your hand is raised.

Hey, how's it going?

Um, good. Random, random thought though, that, uh, I've kind of, you know, in my head, uh, helps with anxiety. Um, and it's like, it's changing my perspective of the situation, right? It's, it's a decision paralysis sort of situation where you're afraid to make a decision. That kind of dovetails into what you're talking about, about firing your therapist or whatever. Um, you zoom out really far from your life and you just think of it in the sense of, um, any decisions that I make in my life on a, we'll say, cosmic scale, I mean, ultimately mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. And I'm not saying this in a hopeless sense, I'm saying from the standpoint of pain and suffering and whatever, like my decisions that I decide whether it's to leave my wife or stay. It kind of lessens the fear of making a decision. And then on the inverse, and this is what I wrestle with, I go back, I go back to the micro scale, which is, oh my gosh, if I don't have dinner ready, I'm gonna get yelled at. And oh, the kids will see us fighting. What happens if I leave? And then my kids, they'll never forgive me. And, but then again, and then you just change that perspective and I zoom out. I'm like, right, but even if it has a negative impact on my kids staying or leaving, you just zoom out and you're like, in the grand scheme of things of life, it's, it's not going to matter if you're just miserable the whole time. Like, you know, and, and so I've kind of do this zoom out and zoom in and I can't quite find the middle ground. So that's kind of what I've been wrestling with, uh, recently because I'm kind of reaching that threshold of of, you know, what do I do? Um, and when you say you have to hold yourself accountable, you know, I could— like I said, I could read as many books as I want or see therapists, but if you don't actually find a way to engage in some of the things that you're thinking about, it's kind of all for naught. You're just kind of stuck in neutral with like an engine revving at 9,000 RPMs. You're just not going anywhere. And, um, so that's just the kind of random thought that I had. I thought I wanted to share. Um, and that was it, really.

Yeah, very good, very good. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, uh, this is the, uh, standard, uh, debate, I guess you could say, that I see quite a bit on my video comments and so forth. If the topic of divorce comes up, if the topic of a dysfunctional relationship where it is so toxic and so bad that everyone around you is just like, dude, what are you doing? Get the hell out. A lot of people will say, I've looked at the pros and cons of this and I'm still stuck because there's a lot of material and everything out there telling me, you know, what's best for those kiddos is no matter what, you and the wife just stick together. Maybe, you know, stick it out until they're like 18, presumably when they're out of the house by then, which by the way is not a guarantee, especially this day and age, economy and so forth, what it is. We have a lot of people staying with mom and dad well into their 20s and beyond. But anywho, um, they will say, uh, I recognize the dysfunction of this, I recognize the awfulness of this, but I'm going to, um, go ahead and stick it out just for the kids' sake. Um, I am not belittling that thought process in any way, shape, or form. I will also be the first to say my relationship number one ended because— and I got off easy, if you will Uh, because my ex basically said, I'm out of here. So I didn't have a choice. I didn't go through this process of do I or do I not, do I file, do I not, do it, do I go through counseling, do I not. No, my, my ex was just basically like, I found a replacement for you and I'm just going to go ahead and head out. Sorry, here's the divorce papers. So she made it easy for me, but I recognize that's not everybody's case. Dare I say, not the majority of cases of guys that I talked to. They're in this weird limbo state of what do I do?

I—

and there's no right or wrong answer here. Everything has its, um, it's, it's merit. The argument, uh, the argument of sticking around, uh, in a really toxic situation like that, what you're basically doing is teaching your kiddos, look, look how a relationship goes between a mom and a dad, between a husband and a wife. See us fighting? Or see us completely neglecting each other. See how we never touch. See how we never compliment each other. See how, um, your mom never reaches to kiss dad. See how mom pulls away when, when dad goes to give her a hug. See, they're sitting back and watching all of this stuff, and they're taking it all in, and they're mentally taking notes. And guess what's going to happen when they marry down the line? The person that they get with, they're going to recreate this shit all over again. Much like your mom and dad did and Grandma, Grandpa, and so forth. So that's one line of thinking, like, stop the dysfunction train. Like, at this point, show kids like, okay, Dad's gonna raise his hand and say enough's enough. I'm going to attempt to save this relationship via counseling and so forth. You, you've seen me do all this stuff, and you've seen me attempt to reach out to Mom and go on dates, and it's not going anywhere. So next step is, uh, watch Dad and Dad 2.0 go through his life with potentially new partners, maybe not. Um, but watch as I, um, I better myself and I take care of myself, and watch as I become a better version of myself. And hopefully the kids will sit back and watch that and say, this is what a person does when they run into a dysfunction like that. When they run into obstacles, they climb over and they become a better person. Or case can be say— case could be made of, well, let's watch these two people stick it out no matter what, because the institution of marriage and family kind of supersedes all that nonsense. Sense. I'm not gonna say one's right, one's wrong. Like I said, I had the easy way out. I, the decision was made for me and I had to run with it and do what I could. But this is up for debate. I don't know, what do you guys think? Anybody else have anything to share along those lines? John says, in addition to bad therapists, there are people out there that guarantee that they can get your wife back with a super, with a super libido and kids loving you and even the dog liking you. Uh, yeah, John, you're tapping into something there that since I've been doing this DSO thing for now going on 8 years, um, there is a strong contingent of people that do what I do in this world who their, their number one— I had to say this— their, their lure, the way they grab and pull people in is via hope. And I understand that, that technique, if you will, simply because a lot of men in that headspace are really, really hurting and they're looking for anything and everything that will say, we can piece your life back together. Because basically all these guys are experienced. It's like, I just want my life back the way it was. I want my wife and my kids and the security and the— no, you know, I, I'd like to go into bed knowing what tomorrow held for me. I, I, you know, although it was boring and possibly sexless and everything else, At least it was predictable and safe. And I, you know, I knew what was gonna happen. Now I have no idea. Can I just get back the old safe me? And there are a lot of people out there saying, yes, yes you can. And we can make it better than ever. Just hand over thousands of dollars and we will make that happen. And I'm here to tell you, I listen to a lot of these stories and I, not all of them, there are some where I say, dude, you need to yank your head outta your ass. You got a good woman on your hands. But there are a lot of 'em where I say, dude, you need to run for your life. And I know you want to save this more than anything, but this is bad news, dude. Like, I'm talking almost homicidal women that these people are with, like true psychopathic people, people that are really, really mentally gone. And these men are like, I can fix her. No, no, dude, you need a team of people to fix this person. And before we go down that road of they're all crazy and blah blah blah, these are just broken human beings that are basically broken little girls. And, uh, sticking with the women, I And no, this applies to both genders, but, uh, it's not up to us to fix them. And, uh, it's— that's kind of heartbreaking. Sometimes you cannot help or fix. That's what a lot of guys like to do is, I can fix this. Sometimes, dude, a lot of the times, no, you can't. Such is life. These people have problems that supersede your little manly ability to fix everything. Sometimes you just gotta let them go. Or run for your life because they're about to ruin things for you. Dave says the group is great. Haven't been intimate in a few months. I slash we are older and my wife uses menopause as an excuse, but I think it's more avoidance with deeper issues. Avoidance plus menopause is certainly a pretty big one-two combination there. Those menopause is a real thing. I have several videos on that and oh boy, women don't like to talk about that. Um, Mike says, I model myself to be the man who my son should be and how he treats his future partner. There you go. That's the way you gotta look at it. I'm sorry that it just scrolled off the screen here. It got more and more things coming in. Or how I want my daughter to find her own partner. There you go. Happy, healthy parent is a better parent, and that means ending a toxic relationship. So be it. Very well put. Yeah, have a hard time, uh, identifying avoidant behavior. Uh, then Ryan says, uh, that she will say, hey, it'll be easier that once the kids get older. Uh, this is, uh, avoidant behavior 101, or a woman who has physically and emotionally checked out 101.

Son.

Same thing. Uh, I know now that we have these little kiddos— hell, they could be like, you know, 12, 13 years old or whatever, not necessarily little kiddos— but, uh, often the— your partner— keep with— keep the gender saying woman— your woman who's avoidant, seems to have checked out, will say, those rugrats are the reason that I've kind of checked out in this way. She won't say it in so many words, but that's what she means. Once they are of an age where they are more autonomous and they can take care of themselves, You're gonna watch the old wife come back. Trust me, it doesn't work, dudes. I'm sure there's one in a bazillion cases where some guy will, you know, raise his hand and say, no, no, this actually happened. Once the kids moved out in college, my wife and I just went on adventures together and we reignited and everything was amazing and wonderful. Possibly. I'm sure somebody out there will say that. Have I personally seen it? No. You have, you have a lot going against you. You're trying to say you're going to be sexually apart like that for years and you're just gonna suddenly reignite like that? Good freaking luck. And the other thing that works against you is old Father Time. You guys don't get sexier with age, man or a woman. Menopause, the drops of testosterone, you don't look and feel as good as you used to. You're gonna, you know, a decade, two decades later suddenly be like, I'm ready to be sexy now. No, now is your prime time, Mr. 30-some-year-old. Um, now's the time when you're supposed to get a lot of, quote, baby-making done, sex done. Same goes for the woman. 20s and 30s, prime fertile time. Mother Nature has engineered you guys to get it on quite often during those decades. And if you're not, and you're hoping that we'll just shift the old timeline over this way further down, it doesn't work that way, guys. I'm sorry. Um, all right, I think I've caught up on all the, all the comments there. Uh, Mr. Dorian, you have your hand raised, sir. Would you like something? Would you like to add to the conversation?

Yeah, first of all, can you hear me?

I can, loud and clear.

Awesome. Well, one of the things is, uh, first of all, instead of fixing somebody else, we need to fix ourselves. I think we, a lot of guys, we go through our lives thinking we know who we are. We are not. We actually are into this machinery, right, of society. And pardon, I have a cold, so I'm gonna sound pretty bad. But yeah, we're in this society and we are actually in the, in the matrix, quote unquote, in the machinery. We need to go back and fix ourselves for what we want to be, because that's all we got. That's all we got to really take care of ourselves. What, you know, everybody else is wonderful when we're doing something quote unquote cool in our lives and we feel good about it, but then they bail when something goes wrong. We need to be able to take care of ourselves first, even if nobody else is around there, and then things will get a little more clear. I think so. Hit the gym, get yourself in shape. It's important, not because you want to attract women. You want to be in shape because what you just said— you're gonna get older, we're not going to be the same. We want to, we want to go the best version that we and we owe it to ourselves. And then that will probably change our mindsets about the other person. If the other person doesn't really want to work with us, hey, maybe it's time to let them go and face it, you know, a specific way. Now I have to say, first, first things off is that I never been married. I almost got married, I was engaged, and it all went south. And actually now I look back and So glad I didn't, because that would have been a shit show. It would have been awful for me in many ways. Now I can see really what I really want. I like my independence. I like to be able to mentor people. I like to be able to be an example for other men, uh, tell them what to look for. And if it happens that one of these days I get married, I'm happy, great. But I'm really not looking for it anymore. That's not my goal anymore, and shouldn't be for other men. They You need to be able to say, how do you want to live your life? And not feel guilty about it because it didn't happen. Life is short. And be able to walk on your two feet and say, this is who I am, and I feel so good about it. Loneliness gets to all of us. I understand that. But if you shave too much of yourself trying not to be lonely and you just give it all away, people will not, uh, they'll take it for granted. So you have to build, you have to, like I said, fix yourself first, be strong. Uh, and that's why we're here. We, we are listening from all our different, uh, stories and, and what to do. And maybe sometimes how things are not gotten, you know, they go fixed, we have to just let them go. But this is part of life. But it's, that's to me is better than being blind to what's really happening one day, say, geez, I, I never listened to the, the advice that, for example, Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer and everybody else was, was saying. And now that's it, it's lights out. So Ralph, thank you for putting this together. I really appreciate you and all other people. When we talk about this, it's, it's definitely an escape where a bunch of guys are able to talk about our issues. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I definitely me see you having more success with us and be able to help each other. Thank you.

Thank you, man. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for sharing. A lot of good stuff there. A lot of good stuff. Uh, one thing I wanted to touch on, you talked about, is something I hear quite often, um, usually from men that are fresh out of a failed relationship. A lot of men that are fresh out of relationships are basically kind of conditioned to be in a relationship. They've, you know, awakened every morning to a human being next to And when they go to bed at night, there she is again. And that's their best buddy. And that's somebody that they share a lot of life's little moments with. And then that's suddenly gone. And they're like, you know, I feel really shitty. You know, could be downright depressed. And you know what the remedy for that is? Let's get us a new replacement woman. And they run out really quickly and try to fill that void. And it's not good. And, um, I talked to a lot of these men, and one of the things I will say is, well, what if I were to tell you that I have a crystal ball, I can see into the future, and I'm looking into the future and I say, dude, within the next 5 years you're not going to have a replacement woman. Um, she's gonna be you, and maybe some coffee dates, movie dates, maybe even sexual something. But as far as having one woman and she's yours and it's just you two going through life together, a real life partner, that ain't in the cards for the next, you know, I'm looking ahead 5, let's say 10 years. How does that make you feel? And a lot of men say that fills them with absolute dread. Like, I know the end game is the life partner. I have to have that. And I say, dude, the more you enter into that mindset of no, I have to have that or else I feel incomplete. You're setting yourself up for a whole bunch of pain because you are basically, uh, trying to use these people as human Band-Aids, as I often like to say. Make me feel better, human. That's not their job. It's not fair to them, not for you or everybody else in your world. Um, that's, that's not what they're there for. As opposed to, like Dorian said, I'm enjoying my independence, I'm enjoying doing what I want to do, I'm enjoying, you know, helping out others I'm not like some hermit that's, you know, away in a cabin somewhere just avoiding all human beings. I'm, I'm getting out there and trying to enrich other people's lives and learning from other people. But it's just my number one goal in life is not find Mrs. Right, you know, trying to fill that void for life partner. Because the more you do that, the more you put up blinders to all those what we call those red flags. I know I need a replacement person, and you find somebody and you're I, I think this could be the one after date number 2. You know, she's, she's beautiful, she's kind, she's sweet, she listens to me, and she has all those things the ex-wife never had. The ex-wife used to be really mean to me, and, um, you know, I'm starting to think this is the one. Oh wait, what is that? I just walked by the, the trash in her kitchen and I noticed 4 empty wine bottles, and she lives alone. Maybe she hasn't— maybe she hasn't taken the trash out in a couple of months, right?

That's it.

There's, there's no drinking problem here. Oh, you know what, the other day when we were talking on the phone, she was slurring her words. Maybe she had a cold, you know. Why is he, you know, giving her the benefit of the doubt and overlooking everything? And by the way, if that sounds oddly specific, cough cough, I've lived through that. Um, but, uh, it's because he has the end goal in mind. I, I'm trying to find Mrs. Right here, trying to find a life partner. I'm willing to overlook a lot of stuff because my eyes on the prize, and I need this prize.

Just—

it's a very, very unhealthy mindset to be in, at least from my perspective. And, uh, guys got to be careful of that. It's, uh— I would much rather hear that guy, if I asked him, I, you know, I don't see— I'm looking into my crystal ball, and 10 years from now I don't see you with Mrs. Wright— I would hope he would say, that's cool, I have a lot of other shit to do in life than to have, you know, to getting depressed over the fact that I don't have a life partner. I'm sure I'll meet a lot of really cool people, men and women alike, some in romantic relationships, some not. That my career, my, my craft, if you will, I have my, my missions, plural, that I'm on, more than enough to keep me busy, so to speak, and give me a sense of purpose. And, um, that's what I hope. But I rarely, rarely hear that. So, Dorian, I'm glad to hear you saying that.. And, uh, John says, agreed, DSO. You may not realize this, brother, but you've given so many dudes an avenue to vent, share, and grow. Should be proud of yourself, man. Oh, well, thank you, John. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Um, it's not easy being lonely, but I'm learning that it's not necessarily a bad thing being alone. It's important to be able to do that. Yes, but it's also— we also need, uh, let's not lose sight of this. Um, got some videos coming out on this too, a lot of videos I've been working on. A very man thing that we hear often is, I don't need anybody, I'm cool. And that means they set aside not only romantic partnerships, but they set aside friendships. They don't do this kind of stuff. They don't talk to men, whether it's online or in person or whatever. That's not good. It's not good for the mental health aspect of this. Um, we know for a fact that for mental health, for the average human being, you need social interaction in some way. You need a community. As I've often mentioned, uh, when we see people in prison, in the prison system, a form of punishment— and some countries have declared this is actually a form of torture— is to put them in what we call solitary confinement. Shove them in a cage and don't let them talk or see other people. Just put the, put the food through the little hole in the door, give them a magazine or whatever to read, and just say, you know, shut the door. And they don't see another person. Well, guess what happens? They lose their mind. There's some mechanism within the human animal that needs that social interaction. So don't lose sight of that. While it's good to be able to— I, I'm comfortable in my own skin, I don't need to be around people 24/7, you know, I can, I can be by myself and devote myself to whatever for a period of time is healthy, great. But you still need some interaction with other people, hopefully other men. And people that you can have genuine, open, real intimate, if you will, conversations with, interactions with. That's important. Um, and then we're talking about if you're in a bad relationship, how lonely you feel. Yeah, that's true. There's some saying about being, uh, being by yourself is better than being alone in a relationship. There's nothing more lonely than being in a relationship where you don't feel love and connection with the other person. Pardon me, I think because you're supposed to, supposed to feel that connection with them. And when you don't, and you see this literal human being across from you and there's nothing there, there's nothing more hurtful, is there? That sucks. Um, I'm gonna wrap it up here soon, guys. I need food. I'm getting hungry. Um, anything else to share? Any questions of myself while you got yours truly on here? Mike says that he likes the self-improvement process to the broken window theory. It's the idea that if you have a building with a broken window It's more likely to be vandalized and broken into, whereas if a building is maintained and that broken window is repaired, you have a less likelihood of opportunistic vandals. Very interesting. I've not heard that before. I like it. So you're right, seeing that broken window gives the impression of this is kind of a place of disrepair. Let's just— who cares, man? Let's throw rocks through this other window. Let's break in and steal stuff. Um, yeah, good way to avoid abusive relationships, which is why For you codependent types that don't have a lot of sense of self-worth and you don't have much in the way of any relationship experience and stuff, you tend to attract all these monsters to you, these narcissistic types. For whatever reason, they can smell it a mile away, um, probably because they give little tests that you fail, little verbal jabs, little whatevers, and they go, oh, this is a person I can manipulate and mold to my liking. When they try that on a more mentally healthy individual, a stronger individual, they're shut down immediately and they just go, oh, okay, on to the next one. And then they find you, Mr. or Miss codependent, dysfunctional, anxious-y type person, and they latch on, kind of like that— the alien facehugger from the movie Alien. Good movie. Um, so in essence, they're looking for your broken windows. Aren't they, Mike? And they find them. They can sniff those out. Uh, this is, any experience with wives with endometriosis? Some painful sex unless they're really in the mood. Oof, that's tough. Uh, my wife is a medical doctor, wife number 2, hopefully the last one. And, uh, we actually did a podcast, um, uh, what we talked about, uh, trying to remember the title of it. What is something along the lines of, what's with women and a lot of mental disorders? Because we have women tend to be more predisposed to anxiety and depression and so forth. And I hear a lot of those stories of, my wife just checked out after kiddos, and mentally she's gone. And we talked about other stuff, including one of those things was endometriosis and, uh, PCOS, polycystic, uh, it's a polycystic ovarian syndrome, um, all of these kind of different syndromes. And the more you learn about the, the female body, a lot of the stuff that could go on, I don't know how they walk around with these things. That's terrible of me to say. There are so many things that can go wrong. And it's a very, I feel sorry for the poor ladies. I mean, they go through hell every month. They're going through, you know, with their periods and they feel terrible and they're awful. And the, the emotionality of it all. And then things can go haywire and you have things like endometriosis and PCOS. And then lo and behold, life says, hey, here's menopause. Like, oh shit, wonderful. Anything else? We, us guys, we don't experience that. So, but that's tough. And I personally don't have any personal experience with endometriosis or women who have had, but I know of it and roughly what it is and they can, that can be terrible stuff, dude. Boy, that begs the question though of, well, there's this comedian, I don't know why I'm sharing this, Patrice O'Neal. I don't know if you guys, Mike, you may know Patrice O'Neal. He passed away several years back. He was awesome, uh, out of New York. And I've been to The Cellar a few times, Mike. I don't know if you've been to The Cellar in New York. I'm a big comedy guy. I love comedy. Um, but, uh, Patrice said that he was up on stage, I remember, and his bit was, uh, women, what would you do if you were in an accident and your vagina fell out? And women in the audience yelled mouth. He's like, oh, so you'd use your mouth? Okay. And another woman yelled out, ass. He's like, oh, wow, okay, ass. And he goes, interesting, ladies, you've all just, uh, reduced yourself to a series of holes. So instead of like, my personality, or my— it's not all about sex. No, the women were just, ass, mouth. So, uh, anywho, uh, it just came to mind for some reason.

He also— he also had one of the best lines I've ever had about someone who cops from serious rela— he called himself a serial monogamist, which was my most favorite way of describing someone who cops from a very serious relationship to another one.

And it—

he has great talks on relationships and long-term stuff as well too. He's such a great resource on that as well.

Yeah, if you Google a lot of, uh, he had a podcast that he put out, I can't remember the name of it, um, but, uh, talks about relationshipy stuff. A lot of it is, to use the vernacular today's day and age, I think it his stuff predated what they call now like kind of red pill-ish kind of talk. He was very red pill-y kind of talk. And Robert Shimmel, another good one. Yeah. Patrice O'Neal. So check him out. African American, pardon me, African American fella. Very, very good. And I saw, Mike, you have Richard Pryor in the background there, one of my all-time faves. And Yeah, love comedy. But anywho, so you're getting into The Gentleman That Asked About Endometriosis. You're getting into a— you're going down a rabbit hole, use that term again, of, um, marriage and commitment. And what if something happens and they are unable to fulfill their wifely or husbandly duties in the bedroom? Are you the type to go, well, I guess our job's done here and I'm gonna go find a replacement? Um, not the nicest thing in the world, and we have probably a chorus of human beings that would agree with that and really shame you for that. Uh, but it's not necessarily wrong. There are, um, there are cultures throughout time that they're in all over the world where the understanding is— and I'm not agreeing with this or disagreeing with this, it's just what it is— where they have this tacit understanding of Men have this hunger for the sexual connection that us women may not be able to fulfill, whether it's because of age, whether it's because we're incapacitated due to childbirth, whatever. But he has this need, and we all recognize it's still there, so we all turn a blind eye to the men getting their need met elsewhere. There are cultures where that's kind of like an understood— he's got his mistress or whatever, I don't want to see it, I don't want to hear about But it is what it is. Um, kind of goes hand in hand with this. If you're physically incapacitated, what do you do? Um, you know, your woman gets in a horrible accident and everything is cut off from the waist down. Uh, does she say, husband, I understand you have needs, just I don't want to hear about it, go ahead, I love you? Oof, that's a touchy subject, isn't it? I don't have an opinion either way.

I don't know.

I don't— what's right or wrong, I don't know. I would be horrible to be in that position. And if you're a man, same thing happens to you. Do you tell your woman, hey, I know you have needs and everything, go ahead? Or do you try to find your way to work around that and do other things together to stay connected physically? All kinds of— oh, touchy, touchy subject, that's for sure. Um, but good stuff, guys. Thank you so much. Again, this gives you an idea of what a Deist fraternity meeting is like. We have been on for about an hour and a half now. The longest I usually go is about 2 hours with these, but it gives you a good flavor of the type of discussion that we have. And we're doing multiple of these every single week, myself and the other guys on the Dad Starting Over team. Good stuff. And again, if you miss it, you can listen to a recording. We record these and post them on the— on a podcast channel or podcast feed, if you will, that is for members only. And you can listen to it right from your phone. So join us at— you can go to dadstartingover.com, click on the DSO Fraternity logo, or go to dsofraternity.com, takes you to the same place. And we would absolutely love to have you. You can try it out for a month, see how you like it. And if you're like, eh, this isn't really for me, cancel. We— you can cancel right from your account or shoot us an email, we'll do it for you. And, um, no hard feelings. May not be for everybody, but from what we've seen, guys usually go a month 2 months, and then they come to us like a gentleman had here on the chat here recently. They say, how do I upgrade to the lifetime thing so I don't have to keep paying a month? And I know I want to keep doing this for years, and I've done the math and it makes sense to go and pay for the lifetime plan. Or guys that want to pay for a year up front and join us. And then we would love to see you in person. Our next BroFest, as we call our in-person gatherings in the States, is coming up, like I said, in April. Next year, New Orleans, Louisiana. I will be there. My wife will join us for one of the days. We're going to— we have a Saturday. We're going to show up Thursday evening, dinner, presentations and meals on Friday, um, hang out Friday night together. And then Saturday morning we have more presentations, more meals. And then our last meal on Saturday evening, we're actually opening up if guys want to bring their significant others to that one dinner. Other than that, we say, ladies, please stay away, it's for men only. But we are— this is the first— we've— first time I've ever done this, we're opening up that last dinner to, um, wives and girlfriends if you want to bring them. So that should be interesting. And we do have some wives, girlfriends that are very much on board with watching their partner in this self-improvement game. So that's great. So if they're on board, why not bring them in in some way? But still, it's a group for men only, so don't, don't freak out, guys. This isn't— this isn't something we're going to habitually do, just for this in-person gathering for for the one dinner just to show the wives that this is a good thing and that we're real genuine human beings, not some monsters online trying to ruin their lives and take their husbands away. So check it out, uh, Bro Fest, dadstartingover.com, dsofraternity.com. Oh, and we also have, um, I should mention one of our biggest groups is in Australia and they have had two in-person meetups they call Mate Fest. You know, Bro Fest in the US, Mate Fest in Australia. Pretty good. And then we're going to have our guys in Europe. They're going to get together here this coming weekend in Amsterdam and they're going to call it Eurofest. Hopefully that'll eventually grow into something big. It'll be a small group this time meeting up in Amsterdam here this coming weekend. So pretty cool stuff. We got a lot going on in case you can't tell. That's a group that's going to be growing and growing. And it's the thing I am by far most proud of in the Dad Starting Over world is this group. Um, uh, Dave says you're no longer getting email alerts on meetings. That could be a lot of things. Something has nothing to do with us. It could be your email provider is shoving us into spam for whatever reason. It could be it's going to— if you're using Gmail, it could be going to your promotions tab. Um, or it could be for whatever reason it's shut off on our system to— and something to say not send this guy emails. Who knows? But we can check it out. If you want to send an email, David, to support@dadsstartingover.com, or we can check out on it from our end and you check on it from your end, but we'll figure out and see if we can get those emails to you. But again, guys, thank you all so very much. I appreciate all of you. Thank you for joining. Thank you for following on social media. If you're following, if you don't join our DSL fraternity, thank you again for following and joining on the discussion on the social media channels. I appreciate it a great deal and you can help by continuing to like and share Every time you do so, it helps get the word out. You know, that's how those algorithm— algorithms, plural—

work.

YouTube, Facebook is huge, TikTok is huge. Repost, share, like, all that good stuff. So once again, thank you all so very much, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Take care, guys.