Interview with "Hank" - A Reader and DSO Fraternity Member Who is Going Through a Divorce

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. Hi everyone, DSO here. Welcome back to another episode of the Dad Starting Over podcast. And with me today is none other than Hank.

What's going on, guys?

We're laughing because it's a fake name, but, um, we were trying to decide what fake name to go with and he's like, can I be Hank? And I just had to laugh. Of all the names, all right, Hank it is.

I've always wanted to be Hank.

So Hank here is a reader of The Dead Bedroom Fix as well as a member of the DSO fraternity. And he and I got to chatting and he's in a situation which I think a lot of you out there can relate to. He's going through a divorce, but we're kind of jumping ahead in the story. I thought it would just be good to talk to an everyday Joe and get some perspective on what he's going through, what he will go through, give some advice, you know, all that fun stuff. So where to begin with this? How did, um, how did you and your wife meet?

Funny story, man. Uh, Tinder, actually, the app Tinder. Sure.

How long ago was that?

Uh, it's been about a little, a little over 5 years ago. So I actually was a platinum member.

Oh shit, you weren't messing around.

I wasn't messing around, man. I was dicking them down.

I really was.

I was dicking them down. I just happened to scroll on my wife and she was sitting behind a beer pong float. Well, with a more American— yeah, with an American flag bikini on with her big fake tits. And I was like, I'm going to marry her. Wow.

Did you really— did you really have that right off the bat? Like, that's my kind of woman?

Yeah, it was the physical attraction. The physical attraction just threw me for a loop, man. I don't know, nothing screamed America like that picture did, you know.

So, um, what was your relationship experience prior to her?

Uh, well, honestly, uh, I've got a previous kid with another woman that did not work out very well. Uh, got out of high school and, uh, messed around for a little while, and then me and this girl was friends, and for a long time we decided to get in a relationship, got pregnant. She introduced me to Facebook. And, uh, uh, cheated with her, you know, our owner, uh, a lot of people. Yeah.

So, so you were in— was this in high school when you met this first chick?

Yeah, chick number one.

We'll call her chick number one. So chick number one, you met her in high school, you guys became an item, and you knocked her up. I assume that was a big oops.

Yeah, I actually, actually was planning on leaving her the day I found out she was pregnant, and then she told me she was pregnant.

You know, I don't know what it is, but I've heard that more than a few times. It's almost like the universe knows, like, oh yeah, buddy, you got, uh, that's what you think, here you go. Um, right.

Yeah, but in all honesty, I will say, uh, she was actually a really good woman. I was just really immature.

And well, that's big of you to say. And so obviously, being a high school kid, uh, you weren't ready for that.

And, uh, I thought I was.

In looking back at it, with hindsight being what it is, with you cheating on her, was that kind of your way of, uh, coping? That was your medicine? Like, I—

no, honestly, to be honest with you, I kind of had, uh, high school— I mean, which I've always considered myself a good-looking dude, but I didn't have that much confidence, you know?

Yeah.

And, uh, I don't know, I guess just, just the way I was raised, but, uh That really is what it was. It was just an ego boost, uh, made me feel good about myself, you know, to be able to sleep with A, B, and C. Well, sure.

So in a way, that was a coping, which means you're just sitting there at home going, I got a kid, a kid and a woman and responsibilities, and what the hell am I going to do with my life? Shit. Some people turn to liquor or booze. Some people just, I'm going to go gamble all my money away and You know, drugs. Your advice was, let me go get some attention from other women.

Yeah, let's get some of that vagina.

Yeah, there he goes. So that ended because she found out about it, I assume. No, you didn't confess. You— she's like, what, what's this number on your phone? Or whatever.

Uh, it was actually, uh, hit on her best friend.

Okay, hold on. Were you, were you inebriated at the time, or was this, uh, you—

no, I just was so confident.

And her friend went to your ex and said, you know what, uh, Hank there just did, he just came on to me and whatever. And yeah, and then so then she said, you know what, I think we're done here. Or was that the open up the Pandora's box to find out other stuff about you?

Well, uh, we kind of tried to work things out and she wanted me to come clean about everything I did, and so I did, uh, foolishly.

Gotcha.

And that was the end.

All right, so she's out of the picture. Well, not completely ever, really, right? That's the mom to your kiddo.

Yeah, we actually get along really well.

She's out of there.

Like, I can— I can find in her A lot. I've actually confided in her a lot in my marriage because, uh, she actually seen me at my absolute worst, you know?

Yeah.

And so, so I reach out to her a lot for advice. She's a good person.

Well, good, good. Okay. And so how long after that ended that you met, uh, wife?

It's probably about, yeah, 3 or 4 years maybe. It was actually a while. Like, I took the whole single thing to the max, you know? I said I was a platinum member to Tinder, you know? Yeah, uh, I just—

and you had luck, you had luck with the online dating thing?

I— man, it was— did— yeah, absolutely.

Fish in a barrel.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was— man, it'd be 2 in one night, sometimes 3 in a day. It was bad. I mean, it was, it was bad. I went—

well, I mean, psychologists would put you on the couch and say, uh, 2, 3 women in a day, huh? What, uh, what What are you trying to— I don't know, deal with, COVID up, cope with? Because that sounds like it's kind of compulsive in nature, wouldn't you say?

Yeah, no, absolutely. Uh, I mean, I don't know, I guess it was just the— it was the chase. I was addicted to the chase, the feeling of knowing that I could have them and, and, and getting them.

Well, I mean, any man who's had any bit of success with women will, um, you know, nod their head to this and go, yeah, as far as drugs go, there's really not one nearly as strong as, uh, looking at some woman across the room, or on the internet as it were, and saying she's cute and let me get to know her. And boom, next thing you know, you're in bed with her. Holy shit. It's just, we're engineered for that. Yeah, that's what keeps the old species going. And so, yeah, no, absolutely. But, uh, as you know, it can go too far, and then next thing you know, you're 200 women in and you're like, um, there's got to be more to life than this because I'm still not happy.

And that's honestly, uh, about the point I was at when I met my wife.

But then, um, we're kind of jumping ahead in the story, but as a lot of former Playboy player, whatever you want to call them, ladies' man types It seems like you're— you belong to a small subset of guys that I talk to, but they're all very similar in that it's at some point in my life I said, man, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm ready to, quote, settle down, start a family, get a good girl, etc., etc. And then once they get it, not much time into it, they're like, well, this just ain't cutting it. Um, I kind of need more umph here, need a little bit more spice, need a little bit more something, more sexy, more whatever. And they sometimes approach the wife with that and say, let's, let's get crazy, let's do fill in the blank. And she's like, ew, no, like, man. Um, so again, jumping ahead in the story there, uh, you meet Miss America on Tinder, and how long was your little courtship before you guys got hitched?

To be completely honest with you, and looking back on it, man, it was completely insane. Completely insane. Uh, we actually decided to have a kid before we got married, within, uh, 6, 7 months of—

All right, hold on a second. Yeah, you, you both agreed to have a kid? Usually— now correct me if I'm wrong— that usually means the woman's little— has some baby fever. And she campaigned and she convinced you that that's how we get it?

I don't know, we just got on the subject of it one night, you know, and I don't know, I said it was within 6 months in, you know, I, you know, learned that you go through this, the new phase, you know, news in and you're just, I love you this, I love you that, yada yada, everything's perfect, nothing in the world could, you know, bring you down from the point you're at. That's kind of the point we were both in. Yeah, and I don't know, I said looking back at it was foolish. Now don't get me wrong, I do, do not regret my son whatsoever, but looking back on, I say it was just something we both agreed on. It wasn't even really baby fever, it was just, hey, you know.

And she, she knew, she knew of your previous relationship and your kid with the other gal, and absolutely you'd only known you for about 6 months, and just like, you know what, let's have us a kiddo. And you're like Damn straight, let's have us a kiddo, let's do this.

Yeah. Um, and, but I, I did ask her parents for permission to marry her, literally, literally the day before we found out she actually was pregnant. So I mean, the intentions were there. Wow.

Okay. And so was that around that 6-7 month time frame of— we just, we just met 7 months before. Hey, let's have a kiddo. And then, hey, let's get married. He went to the parents, let's do this. And then So boy, you didn't waste any time. You know, ideally it's a pretty long courtship process. You get to know me, I get to know you, warts and all. Let's see each other when the shit hits the fan. All right, we can work this out. Boom, engaged, married. Let's be a married couple for a little bit. Now we're ready, let's have some kiddos. But man, you kind of skipped that.

Oh, I skipped a lot. I was just in the point in my life where I was just, you know, ready to settle down.

Let me, uh, let me stop you there and get into some kind of heavy stuff, which is, I'm ready to settle down usually points to— or I'm ready to settle down, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm ready to settle down after knowing a gal for 6 months and having a kiddo. Right away, any therapist or anybody worth their salt will say, um, So tell me about mom and dad.

Oh shit, mom and dad, man, they were, they were split up. I think I was 1, 2.

Yeah.

Uh, so I bounced back and forth between them growing up, you know, uh, I'd get in trouble, uh, with my mom or at the school, in the school system that I was at. And, you know, so I'd go to my dad's and then I'd do the same thing there. So I just bounced back and forth. They hated each other. Uh, never talked. Uh, yeah, my mom actually took my dad to court, you know, making some false claims against him when he was— uh, yeah, and it was, it was a pretty rough, uh, situation.

Do you have some siblings?

Uh, yeah, I have a sister. She's a couple years younger than me.

How'd she fare after all this?

Oh, she's doing all right. Worse off than I am, I guess you could say. Yeah, she's got— my sister, she's got learning disabilities, things like that. So she's kind of, you know, struggle, struggle. She struggles. Yeah.

Yeah. So there you had a front row seat as a little kid to some pretty toxic marital stuff, which whether it's consciously or unconsciously has kind of imprinted in you, here's how relationships go. This is what you do. And you kind of fight that as an adult, like, I'm never going to do that. I'm never going to end up being divorced. I'm never going to be in a toxic relationship. And then you do what 99% of the guys do. You end up going, well, shit. Yeah, I just took my eyes off the road for one second. I've already crashed into a tree. Here we go.

Yeah, I, you know, I got fair more towards my mom's side. Uh, my mom, she's been married. She was married a few times after my dad.

Oh, okay.

I actually remember one time, uh, I was probably 10 or 11, maybe a little bit younger, but, uh, she actually took me with her to cheat on her husband. I got to play with his kids while they bumped uglies in the next room.

Well, I mean, Hank, you laugh at that, but that's some pretty fucked up shit right there.

Um, I mean, no, it is. I mean, it is like looking back on it as an adult, I'm just like—

no, no offense to mom, but that's pretty effed up. And oh yeah, that's gonna leave— I don't care how tough you are, that's gonna leave an imprint on you, and that's gonna have an effect on you moving forward in life and forming relationships with women. And you gotta— again, I use that term— you got a front row seat for this is what adults do. This is the whole relationship game. Um, so fast forward back to current wife. When did the wheels start falling off of this relationship?

Uh, really, uh, around the time she got pregnant, uh, the hormones, uh, you know, out of balance, out of whack. Uh, I put— I, I endured a lot, you know. I wasn't the type of person that, you know, judged her for the way that she was. I dealt with it. Uh, and then when she had, you know, our son, she got postpartum depression. She had it for about a little over a year.

Oh wow.

Uh, and I didn't realize that— I did not know it at the time. Uh, she's actually bipolar, and I did not realize it. I did not realize it until she got pregnant and wasn't allowed to take her medication. I didn't even know that she was really on medication.

So she's not— okay, I thought you were gonna say later on she got diagnosed. No, she knew and kept it from you?

Yeah, pretty much.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, that's one of those, um, Exhibit A for why you kind of, you know, get to know somebody a little longer than 6, 7 months. Yeah, because you find out these kind of things like bipolar. That's nothing to sneeze at. And so when she went off the meds, the postpartum, I assume— are you kind of saying that that's kind of one of the lows of the bipolarness? Because I mean, let's stop— for those that don't know, bipolar is, is, um, the symptoms of it are you have pretty extreme highs Manic? She had—

she had— no, she wasn't manic. She had the lows.

She just had really bad lows, just really bad lows, real bad dips where she would just stay in bed all day kind of thing for days at a time, weeks at a time.

Yes, sir. Yeah, didn't want to do nothing, you know. I had to come home from work a few times to help with the kid because she was so stressed out.

Was she ever hospitalized for any of this?

No, no, she wasn't. And she actually was, uh, contemplating, you know, suicide at, you know, one point in time. Well, she said she'd never do it, but she was thinking about it, you know. Yeah, it got, it got pretty low, you know, and I endured as much as I could, uh, and it just, you know, it just never really got better, you know. She once, you know, she quit breastfeeding, uh, she got put back on her medication. It took a while to kind of get it straightened back out, and then she said she felt fine, but, you know, our relationship was still as it was, you know, before or after the— or before the postpartum ended.

So, and to simplify, there was a lot of damage done during that pregnancy period where she had some really bad lows. Yes, absolutely. But hindsight being what it is, do you look back and say, uh, I could have done more to kind of be the leader and the champion of, all right, let's get you back on the horse. Or were her lows in that period so bad that that really dinged your respect for her? Well, let's say your love for her, your attractiveness to her. Was it— you walked me through— was it too little too late by the time she had come out of that and was feeling better?

No, no, man. I said I endured. I really did. Like, I actually really found the type of person I was, uh, with her, you know.

Uh, okay.

I endured so much, and I tried to stay positive, uh, tried to help her, tried to push her, you know. With, with the lows also come, you know, with the pregnancy, the, the weight gain, and then not feeling good about themselves. And, you know, so trying to push her to— or not really push, but encourage her to, you know, to go to the gym with me or, you know, go on walks, things like that. It just— I endured a lot. I felt like I'd done what I could, you know, the best I could. But yeah, I mean, in a sense, I mean, looking back on it now, even, you know, after a year or so after she supposedly was, you know, cured of the postpartum, I still felt like, you know, uh It was only because the relationship didn't change, you know. It was— she was still having lows, she was still depressed, but she still— I mean, she said she felt fine. Uh, sex pretty much was, uh, bland, bland, bland. Um, and so, man, I guess that, uh, I guess I did kind of lose a little bit of respect. And love after the fact, you know, of putting up with it for so long and it just not seeming to get better. Uh, I tried, you know.

So you gave it a shot. You're trying, you're trying to be Mr. Cheerleader and leader to, to getting better. Try this, try that. And her reaction was basically I don't have it in me. I can't. I'm done here. I'm— my— this is— this is my new persona. I'm Miss Depressed Gal. Yeah.

And that's the way it's been, man, for— for years, you know. Uh, our son is 4, you know, so I endured that for, you know, 4 years, you know. We are going to file for, you know, an uncontested divorce next month. Uh, I've done moved out, and— and it's just— it's been— it was rough. It was rough, you know, uh, no change.

So walk me through the, um, decision-making process with that. Was it, uh, you guys had a big blowout and you eventually said, you know what, I think this is it? I've had enough?

Honestly, I just got to the point to where I didn't want to be around her, I didn't want to talk to her, I didn't want to look at her. And that's really where it, it boiled down to, you know, I would leave and say I was going somewhere to do something, and in all actuality, I was just going somewhere to be alone, to drink and listen to music, just to have some, some me time, you know. Which, I mean, like I said, and if you was to ask her, she'd say, well, he doesn't communicate, you know, he doesn't spend time with me. And I just got to the point where I didn't want to do those things anymore, you know.

And do you feel in a roundabout way her actions kind of pushed you away?

Oh, absolutely.

Push, push, push. You'd try and she'd push. You'd try and she'd push.

Yeah. And like I said, we were having issues in the bedroom, which is when I, you know, I found the Dead Bedroom Fix. And, you know, I read the book and I started applying the principles. And, and it, you know, instead of getting it, you know, and it wasn't that I didn't get it, I just didn't get it the way I wanted it. Uh, but instead of getting it, you know, 2 times a week, I may have got it 3 times a week, but it was still just the same bland ass, lay there, take it, just take it, top, you know, sex, you know. I mean, literally, I actually told her that, you know, I could honestly get the same exact sex that you offer from a blow-up doll. Yeah, would feel better about it.

In fact, that's, uh, in some of my writings and podcast stuff, I Actually, one of the fraternity podcasts, I put, your wife is not a sex doll. Because what you've experienced, some men do that for years and years and years. And I tell them, I go, what are you telling your wife? Just lay there and kind of be my masturbation device. And, and I really don't give a shit whether you like, don't like, feel, don't feel it. This is for me to get off. And thanks. See you next week at this time. And, uh, some— so for a lot of men, it finally clicks and they go, not only is this not sexy, now I feel like a complete and total shitbag for doing this.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what it is, man. That's all what it— you know, I missed the, the, the passion, you know, the, the just attractiveness, you know. And that shit, you know, that ship sailed a long fucking time ago. Yeah, uh, you know, I tried to, you know, try to spice things up, offer solutions. She'd always shoot it down or, no, I'm not into that. No, you know, I was just like, hey, why don't we go and get you something that will help you, you know? And I started giving her all these ideas and sending her pictures, and she's like, I don't care about that stuff, you know, like, no. So I just— so here's— and in my mind, that's, that's what broke the camel's back. Because, you know, I'm a sexual person. I'm a man. And when it, when it boiled down to it, I, you know, I had to ask myself, can I have this bland-ass sex for the rest of my life? And the answer is no. You know, no. You know, I will never be truly happy fucking a sex doll that talks, you know.

Um, but I think you're kind of on the surface there. You're— the reason the Dead Bedroom Fix book, as I've said many times, was successful is because it addresses the biggest pain point for guys like you, is the sex thing. But then all you got to do is peel the layers of the onion back a little bit, and it ain't just the sex, it's the fact that your wife's depressed and she doesn't put forth any effort to fix the problem.

Yeah, I mean, that's what it— that's— I mean, that's really honestly what it boiled down to, just the connection wasn't there, you know.

Uh, Would it—

I don't care.

Would it surprise you going forward in life, you guys get the divorce and she very quickly jumps with another man, another relationship? Would that be a, oh wow, I didn't see that coming, or you'd be totally shocked?

Well, if— no, if she did, I mean, if she did, yeah, I'd be like, oh shit, wow, you know?

Yeah, don't be surprised.

Oh yeah, I mean, I'm not— I mean, if she does, I mean, that's fine, you know? I'm, I'm over.

The reason being Um, she quickly jumped on board, got pregnant with, and married a bad boy— you. And, uh, you're probably not the first bad boy she was ever attracted to, and you won't be the last. And what a lot of women that are kind of wired like that, chasing that high of the unavailable ladies' man bad boy type, is that once they get into that comfortable I got a kid, I got a house, job, blah blah blah. They're just, they just shut down. They're like, that's it, it's gone, the spark's gone. Everything, not just attraction to my partner, just the light's out. I don't, I can't turn this light back on. And then when it's for some circumstance such as divorce or some other life circumstances, here you go sweetheart, you're back out in the world. It kind of surprises everybody, like, wow. She became Miss Party Gal again. Where the hell did that come from? And so don't be surprised if you're like, you already got another man and you're already moving in with him. Geez, that was fast. A lot of men in your situation see that and get like crushed, heartbroken, not because, oh my gosh, I missed my moment, but because she couldn't— God dang, she couldn't muster that energy for me over the last so many years. And as soon as I say divorce, she flips the switch and she's off to the next one.

Oh yeah, I mean, if it happens, it happens, you know. It is what it is.

I wish her— let's not just pick— let's not just pick on her though, because I'm talking to you and you're gonna do this shit again too if you don't watch it.

I already have.

No, geez, here we go. Well, go on, do tell.

Yeah, I mean, uh, I already have. I said we were, uh contemplating a divorce, and I've just stayed gone for a few weeks. There's a girl that I was talking to that was actually kind of going through the same thing as, uh, me with, uh, her, which they weren't married, but they were just together, and for, you know, a really long time. So we kind of connected there, you know, on a, on a, you know, a mental level, emotional level, just because we're both kind of, you know, just venting to each other, you know. And, you know, next thing, uh we met up and, you know, fucked. And man, I tell you, uh, the, the best thing about that, man, is, is for the past 4 years, uh, I hadn't really felt like a man, you know. And that night, ah, shit, I was on top of the fucking world, man.

Sure.

I mean, honestly, I mean, I was honestly, I was on, I was on testosterone, uh, been on testosterone for a while and I hadn't took it in a while and man, I feel great. I mean, I feel great and I don't even take it anymore. Oh yeah, I mean, I mean, I honestly think that a big part of, you know, the relationship with my wife, uh, with my low testosterone was I was just so mentally drained, exhausted, and just sleeping with another woman, you know, that actually, you know, says, yeah, we can do that, or, you know, makes a couple noises here and there. I'm just, you know, it— I don't know, it doesn't take much. It don't take much, man. It was fantastic. It was fantastic.

Well, I mean, you're a dude and you have needs, right?

Absolutely.

And this woman said, yeah, me too, and you two met and did your thing. Here's where it gets dangerous though. You have a track record of jumping into these things pretty quickly and pretty heavy, pretty fast, right? Have you conveyed to this woman, hey, it's just— I'm not even divorced yet, let's just— oh yeah, let's just, let's just cool our jets?

Yeah, like we, we— I mean, obviously I said we, we did kind of connect on an emotional level just because, sure, you know what was going on. But, and, you know, we still to this day, you know, meet up and hang out. And, but we both agreed that if anything was to ever happen between us on a different level, it would be at least a year, you know, before anything like that was even to happen. When I totally agree with it, man, I totally agree with it.

Uh, I'm gonna check in again with you in about 3 months to see, uh, what the story is, because I'm not buying it.

You're gonna, you're gonna be having another baby, huh?

You're gonna move in with this chick in about a month. You're gonna— no, just be, just be careful. Just be careful.

Oh yeah, no, absolutely. Uh, yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. And you know, let's just, you know, reading in your book and listening to some of your podcasts, you know, a lot of men do that. You know, they— the first one they sleep with, they, you know, they jump right into another one, you know. And, and, you know, I don't, I don't believe in that. Uh, I mean, one, like I said, I've really only been in two serious relations. I guess if you want to call the first one serious, I call it serious because we had a kid and I still, you know, I'll pay child support and, you know I got to see her, you know, just about every day. Um, it, you know, uh, I'm not jumping the gun. Uh, I, I can't do that unless I've got kids, and I've got to work on me, uh, be the best version of myself. Because I mean, even though that there's a, a lot of love lost, you know, for my wife, it still hurts to an extent.

Sure.

Uh, I mean, just for the simple fact that, you know, I did put in effort, I did try. Um, you know, I was the supporter, you know, uh, all that, you know, good stuff on top of, of trying to be the same bad boy with her that just didn't— just, just didn't work. Uh, so, you know, I said, I've gotta— I've gotta slow down on this one, uh, not jump into anything. I agree with you there. I said, you know, listen to your podcast and stuff. I'm not the top person.

There's a— you do have a vibe about you which a lot of your— a lot of guys, period, do, but a lot of your more experienced ladies these men, player types, have, which is sex is sex and it's fun and it's this and this. And I don't care how tough of an alpha male you are, sex is complicated.

Oh yeah, no, absolutely.

Sex is emotional.

And it is.

And, you know, everybody has that tipping point where you go from, well, this is fun, to I can kind of see myself with this person. I can kind of see this. That's where your ass gets in trouble, and that's where you find yourself a year down the line going, goddammit, why didn't I just wait? I could have waited a whole, you know, which is why I give advice to men in your situation, which is just give women a break for a little bit. They ain't going anywhere. It's not like you have some biological clock ticking that's like, if I better, you know, make some more babies before I get too old. You've made your babies, right? Right. Um, you're gonna run into some women that are going to be like— after you fall in love with them, after you're gaga, even though you're saying like, you know, I'm gonna go bang 50 women, one or two of them are going to make you go, hmm, I wonder what it would be like to be her husband or her live-in boyfriend or whatever. And then she's going to drop the bomb of, let's have some babies. And you're like, oh geez, here we go.

I'm actually scheduled an appointment with a doctor next week.

The old vasectomy?

Get snipped.

Yeah, boy, there you go.

Yeah, so 3 baby mamas. That's just, that's just crazy. That's right.

I got 2 of them.

That's enough, man. I did. Now do too.

So, um, yeah, so there's a little bit of concern. Um, you know, you have— I was going to say the ink's not even dry on your divorce yet. Wow, I sounded very Southern just then. Dry. The ink's not dry on your divorce yet. Uh, you don't even have ink, do you? You don't have anything yet. This is just all verbalized. Hey, we're getting divorced.

Yeah.

Um, and you're already shacking up— shacking up, you know what I mean— with another gal.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, I, I guess in my mind, man, when, you know, divorce come into my mind—

yeah, oh, I get it, I get it.

You know, I was— I'm going back to the old me, you know. Like, I'm fixing to just sling it to You know, just about whoever wants it. Well, I've got standards though. It's just, I get it, just anybody.

Another part of this equation though is you can look at it not from your own perspective of I need to take time to heal from this, because no matter how tough I tell myself, this is still a traumatic thing. For example, before we started recording this, you told me you had lost how many, how much weight? About 20 pounds in a matter of how long?

About a month.

20 pounds in a month. That's your body saying you're going through some shit. Oh yeah, I know, some anxiety and stress and trauma.

It does hurt. Yeah, it does hurt. I mean, because I did care about her. But looking back on it, man, I mean, looking back, I didn't see the red flags. I didn't—

oh, I know, you're blind. You're completely blind. And there's— and this, this new chick that you're with now, she's got more red flags than a Chinese parade. You know how I know? Because there's— she— if she was with a man and she had a good— she was grounded, let's put it that way. If she was more grounded and less emotional level, she would meet you and go, I like you, you're cute, but here's a situation. I'm in this deal with my relationship, ex-relationship, and what's your deal? And you'd say, well, me and my now wife, who we have a child, we just decided the other day we're going to get a divorce. A woman who's really well grounded would just kind of shake your hand and say, it was pleasure knowing you. 'But, uh, you get back in touch with me when you— when you're— when the divorce is signed, sealed, and you give it a few months and so forth.' But no, man, she's ready to jump in the sack with you right away. Red flag. Uh-oh for both of you. She has one, you got them. So just be careful. Yeah. Oh yeah, no, playing with fire for sure.

Oh yeah, I agree with you. Like I said, man, just going back, I didn't say the red flags. I didn't say that we weren't really that compatible. I mean, we really weren't. I mean, just looking back on it now, you know, I'm a fun guy. I like to have fun. I mean, I'm a, what they call a rambling man, you know, I like to just do shit. And it's an Allman Brothers tune, isn't it? Yeah. But it caused a lot of conflict between me and my, you know, me and my wife. She, uh, you know, she, you know, she was in a depressed state, so she wasn't, you know, cleaning the house or working. I mean, by— she's not lazy by any means, but if she wasn't doing those two things, you know, she's sitting in a recliner, you know? She never wanna go out and do nothing. You know, I'm real avid into sports. And so we go to— I go to a lot of football games and baseball games and things of that nature. And, you know, I've always invited her, "Hey, you wanna go?" "No, no, you know, I ain't gonna go. I'm just gonna stay here," you know? And so I said, "Man, we just didn't— we didn't connect." like I thought we did. Uh, like I said, man, them, them fucking butterflies, man, are a shit in the beginning. You know, you— it completely blinds you to everything.

Sure does. New relationship energy, we call it. Yeah.

And you know, if I could give any man any advice, take it from me, do not get in a relationship get a girl pregnant within 6 months and be married within a year, you know. Uh, that's where I— that's where I fucked up at. Uh, yeah, I've seen the roses, you know. I was so caught up in, you know, how she looked and the whole sexiness of the whole thing. And, and, man, it did— it blinded the shit out of me.

Yep, yep. But you're older and more mature now.

Yeah. And then, like I say, going back to, you know earlier, I kind of found myself with her, you know, what type of person I am, what I want out of life, uh, for myself and for my kids. And maybe, you know, down the road, uh, another relationship, you know. I actually know what to look for now. And, you know, I've got your book and podcast and things like that to thank for, uh, to kind of, kind of get me where I, where I want to be. You know, I said, don't, don't rush shit. Take your fucking time. The biggest mistake I ever made was just rushing into it. I said the only good thing that come out of it was my kid, you know. Uh, live and learn. Yeah, I know I have. I was still, I was still young and dumb when we got together, but now I said, man, I've grew so much, uh, as a person.

I mean, no matter what, no matter how shitty the relationship is, if both people are honest, they can say, I learned a lot from this.

Yeah. Oh no. Yeah, I absolutely did. I absolutely did. I said, reading your books and podcasts also, man, I went on this whole venture of doing the Five Languages of Love and all these other marriage books. I tried, man. I really did. I tried. I didn't, I didn't give up easy, you know. I guess it's for the simple fact is, you know, I don't like to admit failure. So, you know, I did put in work into the relationship, uh, and it just didn't— I think really reading all those books and, and, you know, trying all the methods and stuff just made me realize that, hey, you know, you're just not the person for me, you know. And that's okay, you know, that's okay, you know. I, I fucked up, you fucked up, and let's just, you know, sign some papers and be the best parents that we can be and move on.

Is there a part of you that's concerned about her going forward?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I said I do care about her. I mean, I'm not gonna lie and say that I don't. Um, there's obviously been a lot of love lost. I just hope that she can— she can get out of that, that depressed state.

I was gonna say, with her—

just with her bipolar, does she have a good network around her family to help Oh yeah, she's got some really good family, but they, they live, you know, an hour and a half away, uh, and she's not willing to move.

I was gonna say, I would predict that if she in fact is gonna need some help— does she work?

Yeah, yeah, she does work. She works here local.

Oh yeah, don't be surprised if eventually it's, I want to move closer to mom and dad and the family just to help Kate take care of some things, because it's tough being a single parent.

Oh yeah, I know, absolutely, man. And that's one thing I can say when it comes to being a dad, I, I go above and beyond. Uh, I may have, you know, my relationship love, my love and relationships may be fucked up, but, but love I have for my kids is second to none, you know. So, you know, I'll do anything I can to help her out with that.

So moving forward, this chapter sounds like it's going to close. Well, actually, before I go down that avenue, let's stop there. Your wife one day calls you out of the blue and says, um, I'm working with a therapist. Which I would assume that's kind of not her forte. She's not gone to therapy and talked to somebody about all this before. But she says, I've gone to a therapist and I realized I got a lot of issues and I'm working through it. And I'd like you to come to a session with me and I would like to work on us. No, I couldn't do it simply because she— you've been down that road too many times. Well, you haven't because she's not tried that before. This is—

she's not tried it before. But I just, I know that she's not my person. Uh, I said, I care about her. I'll support her if she wants to go to a therapist session. I'll watch the kid for her if she wants to go work on her, you know. But when it comes down to it, you know, I'm done, you know. Um, I won't— I know what I want out of life, and I hate to say it, it's just not— it's just not her. I mean, even looking back in the good times, it still wasn't that good, uh, we still clash personalities. Uh, you know, I had to shut down a, a really big part of my personality just for her to be able to deal with me. Uh, I'm fun, man. I like to aggravate. I love to aggravate. That's just my thing, in a, you know, joking, fun way, you know. And I've had to shut that down for 4 years because she can't stand it, you know. So I just, I just know that she's just not my person, and that's okay. But yeah, I said I'll support her if she wants to go, you know. I mean, I mean, heck, I may go with her, you know, one time just to talk about how things went with us if that was something. But as far as, you know, her going to a therapist with me to try to work on our relationship, no sir.

Do you ever see her going down that road at all of, hey, let's work on us? No, no, it's just not a part of her makeup.

It's not part of her.

And you don't foresee another tactic often for women when they see the world crumbling around them is Um, we gotta stay together for the kiddo.

Um, no, I mean, she seems fine with it now.

Really?

Uh, yeah, like now. Um, you know, I'm trying to be cordial, but at the same time, you know, I, I'm kind of being a dick in a way because I feel like it makes it easier, you know, for her. Uh, and I don't know, I've, you know, so we've lived together for a little while, for about a week or so, without you know, uh, or with deciding that we were going through a divorce. And I kind of just quarantined myself to my son's room. And I mean, it was just— I don't know, it's just awkward, you know, awkward as hell. So, you know, I ended up, you know, packing my stuff and moving out to a furnished garage just to kind of get some me time, you know. But like I said, I didn't just, you know— I mean, we're— money's still going in. My mom, you know, money that I make through work still going through her bank account, you know. You know, so she's still being taken care of financially, but, but for now, uh, till the divorce is final. Yeah. But yeah, I said, I just, I just, I said, I'm done, man. And, and I just don't see her seeking help, uh, for, for us anyways. I mean, she may seek help for herself to be, you know, a better person, better mom. But as far as us, I believe on both sides that we're, we're done. Like I said, where I complain about this and this and that, she's complained about, you know, I said, not spending time with her. Not, you know, uh, talking to her, not, you know, communication skills were shit. And like I said, I just got the point where I just, I don't love her anymore.

I was gonna say, you fell out of love is what we're talking about.

I don't think I ever— connection again.

Yeah. So previous line of questioning when I got detoured here was that chapter is closed. It sounds like it's about to be closed. And you're how old?

I am 31.

Oh shit, you got, you got a whole life ahead of you, so you're still young. Well, that's exciting.

It is, it is, it is. I'm excited about it. I'm excited for things to come.

Um, well, my question is, what's coming? What, uh, what do you got plans for? Um, you can, uh, as, as horrible as it sounds, when you're not encumbered by a relationship, guys can tend to accomplish quite a bit.

Oh yeah, man. Uh, I'm gonna travel when I ain't got the kids. That's something I've been wanting to do for a while. Just go different places, see different things. Um, which I'm kind of content with the, the things that are going on in my life. Like I said, I'm avid into sports, and sports is year-round, so I've constantly got something going on. Uh, I said I'm gonna travel. Uh, I don't know, I just— I'm excited to see what, uh, what all unfolds.

Well, as a guy, as a guy who almost has 20 years on you, um, take this opportunity to lay the groundwork for stuff that's going to help you when you're my age. So don't forget the old career, don't forget adding on those— I don't know what line of work you're in— the certifications and the whatever it may be, put those letters after your name on your business card, you know, whatever it may be. Um, investments outside of stuff, you know, side gigs outside of your work. Because those things will pay dividends down the line for sure.

Oh yeah, no, absolutely. I've actually been thinking strongly, which it's not set in stone or anything, but I'm thinking about swapping careers.

No, okay.

I really am thinking about swapping careers. Um, I'm just not real happy with what I'm doing, with where I'm at.

I caution you, and I wrote a second book called Now What? and, uh, it's for men that are— the relationship went bye-bye, and so many men go, well, shit, now what am I going to do?. And one of the things I put in there is beware of some kind of hyper-optimism. It's almost like you get into a manic phase post-breakup, post-divorce of— it's almost like a way of coping with all the trauma and everything with it. But also there's a genuine, holy shit, I'm kind of free right now. I don't have the kids Wednesday through Saturday. Oh yeah, I'm going to do this, this, and this. And part of that manic state that a lot of men go through is questioning careers. And man, I always wanted to fix up old cars. I put that, I put that in the book because I don't know how many times I've heard that. Uh, I'm thinking about getting hot rods and fixing up old cars and doing— and I'm like, that sounds like fun, but boy, you're not gonna make money at that for a while, right?

Now, yeah, I'm, uh, yeah, I'm a little smart when it comes to that. Let's say it's nothing set in stone. It would definitely have to be something that was worth, you know, it'd have to be either more or at least equal to what I make right now, you know. It's not like jumping out on a whim. And just like, you know what, I'm just gonna change my whole life up. Uh, I said I'm excited about things to come. Uh, it is kind of different though. Like you said, the whole kind of manic stage, it's awkward. Uh, you spend 5 years, uh, almost 6, uh, having a routine, and all of a sudden you ain't got a routine. It's like, what the fuck do I do?

Yeah, I know.

I spend myself running, you know, see myself running to Walmart or wherever 3 or 4 times a day. And I, you know, when I was married, I never went to Walmart once, you know. That's just a I have shit to do.

What's the little things, right? Oh yeah, Walmart, Lowe's, both, both of which are literally 1 minute down the road from me here. Yeah, you're right.

Absolutely. Same here, same here.

You know, I'm king of the to-do list. Um, it keeps me sane and it also helps, um, that little feeling of, oh yeah, pump your fist, I got shit done today. Here, I got one right next to me. We're on video seeing each other for the people on the podcast. And look, there's a to-do list that I have to scratch off right next to me on my desk here, and I'm looking at that, and that keeps my motor going. Because not only are you in danger of Yahoo, what's next? It's almost like you can get to that crescendo, that point where it gets too much, and then, and then next thing you know, you find yourself on the couch watching football for the 6th hour that day. Um, so beware of that. It's just, uh, when life presents you with all, with all this freedom You can go down the toilet pretty quick. That's in, that's in part why for a lot of people, and they're not wrong, um, marriage keeps men in line.

It does, man, it does. I said I'm kind of, kind of lost as last year's Easter egg right now. Just kind of not, you know, not knowing what to do.

Oh yeah, it's because for a lot of men it's, um, I'm free, I'm crazy, I'm this, I'm that, I have no direction in life. Here's a wife, here's a kid. Oh shit, time to grow up now. Time to get a career, time to focus on paying the bills, time to stop chasing skirts and just stay steady and steady. And for society, and for society overall, we're like, oh, thank God, because if it wasn't for marriage and everything, that dude would be a mess and we would all have to pay for it. So, you know, prove those people wrong. It's like, no, oh yeah, I can be a bachelor and I can be successful and I can be good for society overall and be a good dad and be a good friend to my ex-wife. Well, there's a novel thought. And I can do this right. And I don't— I'm going to keep coming back to this. I don't think you can accomplish that necessarily by jumping into bed with about 97 different women between now and this time next year.

No, see, and that's one thing that, you know, I'm not gonna do. Yeah, I said this, this, this girl that, you know, I'm— it's just One's fine, you know, when I need it, you know, when I need it. Yeah, I said I'm gonna work on myself, reactivated my gym membership.

Good, good.

Getting back into that, working on my— just going with the flow, man.

Here's a difficult subject. Not saying you need this, but I think anybody could benefit from this: talking to somebody on a regular basis in the form of therapy or otherwise, or group work. Is that something that you're looking into maybe?

Um, Uh, not really. I mean, I guess this right here, I guess.

Yeah, well, talking to somebody, but, uh, I've got good friends. I think on a regular basis, just good dude time, but not just drinking beers talking about, you know, the, the, uh, those shitty times. I was gonna say the, the Titans versus the Bills last night or whatever. No, it's like, no, deeper than that. Somebody just really sit down and really hash out life stuff with.

You need that. And I've talked a lot with, uh, my oldest son's mom. So I said, she's kind of a— she's this man, she's seen me at my absolute worst, you know. So, you know, I confide in her to a lot of things. She's, she's really helped, you know, kind of put things into a little bit more clear, you know, view for me, you know. Um, I said, man, I was shitty to her. She didn't— I didn't deserve her, to be honest.

And, you know, you do talk pretty glowingly of her.

Well, she's a good person. I, I screwed— I mean, but we're— I mean, there's nothing there. Okay.

I mean, I was gonna say, I mean, there's, there's nothing there.

Like, she's got, you know, she's with, with another guy, you know, all that good stuff. We just always had a good relationship after we weren't in a relationship, which it did take time. I mean, over a couple years, yeah, you know, we finally started, you know, the talking and stuff. So I can— I do confide in her a lot because she'd be like, you know, that kind of Kind of sounds like the old you there. You know, she calls me out on my bullshit. You know, she really does. And I need that. I need someone to help me hold myself accountable for, you know, things that I've done, even in, you know, everyday, everyday life, my marriage and, you know, my kids and all that stuff.

So, good, good. Well, Hank, wink wink, it's going to get interesting.

Oh yeah, I'm excited, man.

Well, you're going to have some hiccups. It ain't going to be all wine and roses. You're going to have some Jesus moments where you're going to be, you know, you're going to want to curl up with a bottle at the end of the night kind of thing. Just, you know, talk to dudes like me and others and people have been there, done that, especially they're the ones that have good perspective on all this. Don't hit yourself to one woman too fast. Keep busy, keep busy, keep busy. Build those to-do lists, knock them off, and be there for your kid. We haven't talked much about the kid. Your boy, right? Son?

Yes.

How old is he?

4.

4. Well, he's at that age where he knows enough, but he knows things are weird. He knows something's up, but he does not quite sure what the hell's going on.

Yeah, now that shit hurts.

Yeah, that's the worst thing in the world.

Pulls at your heartstrings, man. I went and picked him up last night and took him to Chuck E. Cheese. You know, just have some fun with him. And, uh, we come back, you know, and he's just like, hey Dad, he said, Dad, are you, are you, are you leaving me? You know, yeah, that's tough, man. We had to choke back the tears.

I know, I often say the toughest day of my entire life, and I've had people die, I've, you know, job losses, you name it, was when my ex and I sat down the kids and she told them Mom's leaving. And their reactions was Horrible, awful, awful. And I'll never forget that day. That was very tough.

And, uh, yeah, my oldest kid, he's 10, you know, he's been— she's been in his life for, for 10 years, or not— sorry, 5 years going on 6. And I told him about it and he give a shit less, you know, um, which said a lot to me because she really slacked on the the stepmom part. Um, it was great when we first got together, you know, and then it was just the point he, he was just like, hey, who you gonna, you know, who you gonna date next? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that kind of, that kind of, that kind of sealed the deal for me, you know. Uh, kind of put the nail in the coffin, the, the final one. Yeah. How it affected him, because, you know, my kids' happiness is best, you know, most thing that I care about.

Yeah, yeah.

And like I said, it was just like, you know, we're not that close, you know. The only time she ever talked to me was when she wanted to know if I wanted something to eat or was getting on to me for throwing a ball in the house, you know. So, so yeah.

Well, best of luck to you, you know. Best of luck to her. I hope she does so well, especially considering, you know, all the stuff she has going on. And, um, Keep in touch. Let me know how it's going.

Absolutely.

And, uh, this is one of those, you know what to do, what not to do. It's just the most difficult thing in the world is just being able to say— and this comes with, you know, maturity— is just to say, uh, you know, those boundaries, the old psychological term, what I'm going to put up with and not put up with, and what I'm going to put boundaries around myself, what I'm going to do and not do. You know, sometimes it's as simple as I'm not going to drink anymore, to I'm not going to call that woman back, to— and these are very, very difficult things to do, especially in this traumatic, anxious state that you're in. But they, they'll pay dividends later, trust me. From a guy who's 20 years ahead of you almost, it's, uh, those are the tough decisions. But in the end, you pat yourself on the back years later saying, thank God I did the right thing back then. So, but you'll learn it. Uh, with time comes wisdom for sure.

Yes, sir.

All right, Hank, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it, man.

I appreciate you having me on. I really do.

So best of luck to you.

Thank you.

All right, and, uh, we'll see you around. Thank you, sir. All right.