Interview with Jay - An Old Internet Friend from Pre-DSO Days

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. All right, everyone, DSO here, and welcome back to the Dads Starting Over podcast. And with me today is a— this is a different guest. With me is Jay. This is— Jay's different from most because Jay and I, we go way back. Jay knows me from pre-DSO days. Where I was deep in the— and this is, you don't have to say this, I'll say this for myself— I was deep in the crazy of post-divorce world, the emotionality, the what the hell's going on, where am I, who am I. I was on the internet just like you were, reaching out for help, sharing your story. And that's where you and I met, where there was an online forum. I saw your story and I said, hey, me too.

Yeah, no, we were, uh, we, we were Reddit. And, um, so So I don't remember way back when. I did a long post, kind of as everyone who's in that moment and had that first real fight where the word divorce comes out and you go, wait, wait, how is this fight different than any other fight that we've had? And to the point that you're going to say this after, you know, at that point we've been— I've been with my wife for 15 years, 2 kids, house, job, you know, you name it. We're fully committed at this point. And so I made a long post because, you know, friends you're not ready to talk to, family would start judging, and I'm not one of the ones to kind of air dirty laundry. So I made an anonymous Reddit post that I remember being relatively lengthy. I haven't seen it in years, thankfully. And Ralph Brewer and a number of people kind of reached out and said, hey, dude, like, holy shit, that's a lot. And I you know, again, pre— this wasn't what you were doing. You were, um, you were in marketing. You had just started dating a girl. Like, you were still in the middle of kind of going through the whole divorce thing. So we were maybe only a few months apart, uh, from having to go through this. And I just remember, you know, what a, what a resource it was and just what a, what a weight it was to hear, like, here's somebody else who's just going through the same shit I am, um, and that I'm not alone. And so I followed you through the years as you started DSO and gone through this. And again, it's been probably close to 7+ years. And then I just saw you were going full-time and I said, "Oh my God, I just got to reach out and catch up with you." And you said, "Let's make it a podcast." So here we are.

Yeah. How cool. A blast from the past. Old Jay. When I saw that come up, I'm like, "Holy shit.

There's a name I forgot about." Well, it's usually a good thing, but in this case, it was nice to kind of reconnect. So you've really— I mean, you're helping a lot of people. And I can say that I was probably one of the earliest ones.

Well, hey, I appreciate it. And you helped me as well. And like I say, you caught me, you know, dating my— we call her Mrs. DSO. I started dating her about 5 months after my divorce from wife number 1. And then that's when you and I were talking. So yeah, only 5 months from the separate or the divorce. And yeah, you caught me very early on in the process. And when looking back at that, I just go, oh man, what an emotional mess. What a wreck. What was I doing dating so soon? Obviously it worked out, you know, with my now wife for going on 8 years now. But we both say, and I've said this in other podcasts, her and I both admit, oof, way too soon. Way too soon.

Yeah, there's something to be said about these women that are okay with taking on projects like us. And so, and so, you know, we haven't— you and I haven't talked, but yeah, I've remarried. Younger wife who never married, no kids. She's ready for kids now. We just got married last year. She was a quarantine bride. So we went through that and we were pretty convinced we were just going to push the wedding off, keep pushing the wedding off. I said, "Screw it." We planned 4 weddings. All of them got cancelled. So every out in the book that we could have possibly had, I said, "Screw it." We flew to Vegas. Awesome. After going through a 5-year, uh, divorce with my ex that, um, just, just to preface it for your listeners, the legal fees were in excess of $600K.

Um, damn. The—

I got remarried, uh, without a prenup. Um, and so I'm sorry. Hold on. Yeah. So it was called throwing the grenade in the room. So I was clearly protected from my, from my last, my first wife, um, for a variety of reasons. And it was always, uh, she was, she was a great girl for a long time. We had two kids. Everything was good. Uh, after, after our first child, things started getting, um, just uncomfortable. Uh, and then, you know, but you work through it, you work through those problems. And then after we had our second child, it was— I didn't know this woman anymore. So, I mean, we separated when the youngest was really about 2-ish years old. Didn't really know who, you know, who she was anymore. She was going off doing her own thing, living her own life, and she wanted the divorce. I dragged her kicking and screaming into counseling, you know, everything else, waste of time. And then, you know, you and I were talking throughout that entire period, so The quick story of it was you go through a few phases, and I'm sure you've talked about them in excess here on your podcast. But the first one is just that despair, that sorrow, that like, oh my God, that kick in the gut that you just think is going to live there forever. And then comes the next phase, and that's anger. And that's like you start getting really pissed off. At the world, at them, at yourself, at anything you can. And these phases are not exclusive to, you know, time. You know, some people take some days, some people take years, some people never get past the grief. You know, and after the grief, after kind of that grief and anger, then you get into acceptance. And that's usually revenge. You know, that's the part that you want to be in when you're going through with the lawyers, and you just want to get it done. You know, you want to be through with it, you want to make your mark, but you want to move on. And then finally you reach a point where you just, you don't give a fuck anymore. Like you're at peace. And I was able to get through the first two, the anger, the pain and the anger, really, really quickly. And I'll say I lived in the revenge phase for a long time. And so living through that revenge phase, which spanned for about a year and a half, until I met my now wife was interesting. I don't know the format of your podcast and what you and your listeners want to get into, but you go through a lot of trial and error. To be 35 years old trying to date again, and the last time I dated, World Trade Centers had been standing. So it was a very different world.

Yeah, totally, totally. So, so that some of the listeners can relate, I don't know how much detail you want to get into the particulars of how marriage number one ended. Everybody has their own little different flavor of, you know, you make it sound as if one day the wife said divorce, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Oh, there always is, you know, and so the You know, quite simply, I just, I couldn't approve of her boyfriend. Couldn't, you know, accept the thought that there was going to be, you know, this home family and that she was just going to go out and do her own thing. So needless to say, there was a very stern conversation of which I can't even imagine the old me. And there's really two different me's. There's the previous one and then, you know, that person that you were that that believes, that trusts, that just thinks that the world is everything but, you know, candy canes and unicorns, you know, that person had to die. And it's a tough death to have someone go through that and say, like, look, like, you know, Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer, there's a saying of yours that I use constantly. And it was, you know, you said, like, if my current girlfriend ever came to me, and this was, you know, super early on, ever came to me and said like, hey, you know, hey, I made a mistake. I ended up cheating on you with somebody else. You're like, no, like, that's cool. Of course you did. Let's, let's go get your stuff. We'll get, we'll go put them in your car and like, you have a good time. But that was, that was a lot of fun. I appreciate it. And it's because you just, you have to, once you've had it happen to you and once you've kind of gone through that, you're just kind of dead there. And, and so it's not that it's upsetting. It's not that it's not like something you fear. You just kind of live that at any moment someone's gonna just tear your fucking world apart and, and say something like, hey, like, I, I'm much happier with, with this guy over here than, than you, um, and you're gonna have to deal with it. So I don't know if that covers that.

Sure. And it got a little, uh, again, you say what you feel comfortable sharing or not, but it also got a little dicey in that it wasn't just one individual involved.

Yeah, no, it was, it was clearly, um, she was ready to go date. She was, she was ready to date. And so her saying divorce was quite simply like, I— she's ready to move, move on with her life. Um, she, she did the marriage thing, she did the kid thing. Um, you know, she just at that point had just turned 30, so she was, or yeah, uh, 32, 33. Um, was, was, you know, kind of in that, that, uh 7-year, 7, 10-year itch of marriage-wise. We dated for a number of years before we got married. And I think it just kind of, you know how it is, she was running with a different, ran with a different crowd all of a sudden and, you know, just felt like it was okay to start dating again. I don't remember giving that impression that that would be okay or being on board for it. But, you know, that was what she was doing. And It's hard to trust again. And so when you start dating, and when I started dating again after I was able to clear my head, it was a really rough restart. I wouldn't date less than 2 or 3 girls at a time. Not because I figured myself as some sort of player, but I'm just like, I had no interest in being attached to anyone. I had no interest and having a relationship with anyone. And so, you know, the second any of them liked me in any capacity or wanted to spend time with me, it's just like, nope, nope, like, I got to cut this before you go. And so I kind of had this year and a half period after separation I just refer to as destructive dating. And it was— I can quite simply say I got that out of my system.

Well, very good. And so, you know, I'm trying to paint the picture here without going into too many details for our listeners. Jay went through some shit and he went through a really, really hard time. And you basically went from everything's cool, this is great, and every man who's been through what you and I have been through can relate to this. And then all of a sudden a switch flips and the entirety of your reality is called into question. What you thought was up is now down, black is white, I don't know what's going on, I don't know what. And that combined with the severity of what you went through, without going into detail, um, the fact that you came out of that smelling pretty good says a lot about you, because there are a lot of men that would have a horrible drinking habit by now and a string of bad relationships and what have you. So kudos to you for that.

Yeah, so, you know, I can say a few things pertaining to that, which you'll appreciate. You know, number one, it is looking back at the marriage, one of the bigger, bigger issues that probably led— and, you know, none of this is I blame myself, and I've spent years in therapy. But, you know, the fact that I worked so much. So I'm quite simply— some people would say I'm successful, but at the time I was running a large organization, a large company. I had about 450 employees underneath me. My wife and I just moved into the new house. She was spending more money. We were ramping up at work. It was very easy for me to spend 60, 70 hours a week in the office. I did very little work from home. It was like she was alone with the kids all day. The kids, once they started going to school all day, she's by herself. So, that starts the physical training, that starts the trainers, that starts the, you know, I want to look better, which led into the bodybuilding competitions. If any of you guys are out there and your wives, spouses, or whatever are saying, like, I want to go get into bodybuilding, just, you know, you know what's coming. It's just— it's not that it's impossible, it's just there's no need for it. It's too much ego and no one can handle the pressure of being put up on that stage. Judged by a bunch of people for what they look like and has nothing to do with their moral character. So I have nothing— I have lots of friends that are, that are in bodybuilding and everything else. It's nothing, a knock at the sport. Quite simply, I can say from my experience, it was probably one of the largest dominoes to fall that really just started cascading. Everything was, was the focus on looks and the focus on attention and uh, right there. But, but, um, I kind of— no, no, yeah, sidetracked from your conversation.

I'm laughing because obviously, you know, my story, how I can relate. And when I read your story online, I remember, you know, 7, 8 years ago, it was like, oh my God, wow, brother, we meet! It was meant to be.

Yeah, I don't even think it's really similar. Yeah, yeah, I don't even think we're that far apart. I think we're just a few states away.

That's right. You're right. So, but hindsight being what it is, I assume you now look back at ex-wife. Let's not drag her through the gutter too much. It's not about her, but this is important. You look back and it— this didn't come out of nowhere, did it?

Oh God, there's always signs. There's, there's always the red flags. You know, when I, when I was getting married to her, like, we went through like multiple rounds of of the prenup. I mean, I just remember like, like, I hope this works for a while, but there was always— I mean, I was young. I was, uh, I met her, I was 21, she was 19. I mean, we were just kids. Like, we didn't know any better. We dated and, you know, were engaged for about 5 years total, uh, got married, and, and, you know, everything was fine for a long time, um, when it was just the two of us. Uh, you know, I, I will say that for the majority of our good relationship part, we had entirely skipped all social media. There was no social media in our lives whatsoever. And I don't really have many pictures of my ex anymore. I kind of one day just went through iPhoto and just deleted almost anything and everything with her in there. So even when people are looking through the pictures, like, you don't have any pictures of your ex-wife in here? I said, no, I really don't. But there's one I kept. And there's one that I kept that was really important because it was the last trip where I said, hey, let's all just get away. Let's, as a family, took the kids, let's, let's get on a plane and let's get away from everything that's distracting us here. Like, let's try. Because my, my thing was, is I wanted to make sure to be able to tell my kids I tried everything. Like, if I'm going to— if I— because she can say the word divorce, it's going to be on me to actually do it. Like, let's do anything. I mean, she just expected the word in her, in her mind divorce meant she keeps the house, the kids, the money, and the lifestyle, and she just gets to flip me with whoever of her choosing. She truly— it kind of blew her mind, the fact that it's like, well, okay, you get to move out, you get to go do these things. And what do you mean I don't get the house? Nope, no, that's my house. Um, and you know, we're gonna sell that house and you're gonna go do your things and we're splitting up. But there was, uh, prior to that We took one trip and we went out to Sedona, Arizona, and that was always been our place. You go hiking, there's, there's not even cell reception if you tried. And, um, and we went and she went from like no social media to with the bodybuilding, you know, it's all social media, um, and, and Instagram, Facebook, all the, all the nonsense. It's pre-TikTok, uh, but I, I kept a picture of we're on the mountain, the kids are, kids are playing, we're, we've walked up there. And she's, instead of talking or engaging with the family, she has hiked up this entire mountain with her phone in her hand, waiting for any fraction of cell reception so that she can text or post or do whatever the hell that she wanted to do. Mm-hmm. Um, instead of spending any time with her family. And, and that's the picture I kept because at that moment I knew there was nothing else I could do. It was over. Yeah. It was done. It was, you know, just suck it up, dude. And, and, and, you know, We'll figure this out on the other side.

Wow. Now, rewinding the hands of time further, pre-marriage, before you guys even met, I assume she has— she brought to the relationship a world of baggage.

Oh yeah. No, she, she was— I like— I'm a Jewish guy. Like, we're like— our families are taught to like, you can fix problems, you can fix people. And so, yeah, she, she came from a troubled household and to be, to be you know, perfectly clear. Everything that she did was a carbon copy of what her mother did, did in their relationship. So, um, her dad was a, was a super good guy. I, I've obviously known him for years. Um, her, her mom and her dad, they met, they were young, uh, everything was fine in the relationship. And right around the time that I think Heather would have been, uh, 7 or 8 years old as like a kid then suddenly, you know, her mom just went insane. And our oldest at the time was the same age. He was about 8 or 9 years old. And same pattern, same pattern of just destructive behavior, upset with the world. Everyone's, you know, everyone's against them. But, you know, they can do no wrong, you know, with all, with all that they're doing. And so, yeah, I mean, it's, it's been countless times I just refer back to, I'm like, you know, this is what you, the exact story you told me that your mom did, or, oh, that's, this is different, this is not the same. And, and it's, it's true, the, the apple unfortunately usually doesn't fall far from the tree.

And I would assume throughout your relationship she probably had a lot of negativity towards mom.

She didn't speak, didn't speak her mom. Um, didn't see— she saw our oldest maybe 3 times, and the youngest that I, I knew of in our, our years together was maybe once or twice. Um, and she lives maybe 20 minutes away from where our house was. So had nothing to do with distance, just wasn't interested, moved on to an entirely different life.

Wow.

Um, and today it's, it's the same thing, you know, the, the oldest, uh, our oldest son, he's 14 now. He ran away from the mom when he was 11 years old. He lived with my wife and I, new wife and I, exclusively for 3 years. At the 3-year mark, I said, "You need to start spending a little bit of time there." Mistake. But you need to start having some sort of relationship there. You know, and it's been good to expose him to that, 'cause his little brother's over there and the little brother is kind of off by himself. So it was kind of more of like, your brother needs help navigating the chaos that's over there. But to be clear, for anyone that's listening that's going through this going, you know, how, you gotta protect your kids. The kids are, you know, kids are in therapy, you know, and I'd say that no matter how kind or nice you and your wife are to each other, ex-wife are to each other, The kids need an outlet. You know, mine, mine were desperate, absolutely desperate for someone to talk to, and my ex took that away because she wouldn't— the second that a counselor made any, any like, hey, this is what the child needs, and if any of that fell onto her, she'd immediately fire the counselor and go find another one. So, so they bounced in, in the years of of separation, I wanna say 5 different counselors. And as soon as they get anywhere near close, she, you know, that was the issue is I, when I settled, negotiated the settlement, you know, I said 50/50 custody. Like it's, you know, I wasn't gonna fight it. We would spend, we already had spent, you know, a small fortune and close to 5 years going back and forth. And so when it finally came down to it, I'm like, I can't fight it anymore. But when you have 50/50 custody, um, of legal, especially even without the joint, that means every decision you guys have to make together. So if she says she doesn't want to see this counselor, or she doesn't want him to go to this doctor, or she doesn't want him to play this sport, like, you know, either, either you're abiding or you're, you know, dealing with lawyers.

Yeah. Boy, you are, uh, you're checking every stereotype check mark on the list. You know, she always hated her mother, became exactly like her mother. Go to see the counselor. As soon as the counselor says, you know, dear, you may be doing this and this wrong, I'm out of here. Bye. New counselor.

Yep.

I hear these things all the freaking time. Have you, being the intelligent, introspective guy that you are, have you looked back on her and what you endured and tried to diagnose her? Because there's something going on here.

No, no, it's Listen, I spent a lot of time in my own therapy. You know, why did I do this and what do I allow, what do I not allow? And, you know, I can't— I don't— I can't control her. I never was able to control her. Any thought that there was that I could shift or change, it was just me pacifying or somehow allowing her to take some time. What, what do you have now though that I look back is I just don't think, I don't think about her. I don't, you know, I've had to essentially erase, um, years and years of my memory. Like I don't, any, any trip that we took together, I just deleted. People lose, you know, people's homes burn down, they lose photo albums. Like it's fine. It's gone. It's just, it's out of my life. And while I had, you know, any, any good times I had were unfortunately just destroyed by her current behavior. Like, I can't— I couldn't even today call and say, can we do lunch and just talk about the kids? She won't, she won't even— I didn't meet my— I did not meet my new wife until a year and a half after we separated, 6 months after all the paperwork had been, you know, like, we took a year, we did a year, year legal separation before we filed like fully filed for divorce. And that was part of me saying like, let's just take a second, let's figure it out. And so in that, in that year, you know, I dated, I did whatever it was. And when it was clear it wasn't going anywhere, you know, we both filed, we both accepted. She had a boyfriend, everything was there. So I met, and then 6 months later I met, you know, what I started dating my current wife. To this day, she, my wife lives with me. We, we own, we've started and we've built, uh, 5 companies together. We're extremely successful as a couple. Um, she's raised these kids. She helps them with their homework every single night, you know, does 90% of the clothes shopping for them. We've had, again, the teenager solely for 3 years, and my ex won't even acknowledge my wife as my wife, won't even acknowledge her by name, just has like— doesn't believe that she exists. And, you know, anytime that she's anywhere nearby like you can literally see my ex just like imploding on herself, having a hissy fit over this whole thing. So, um, so no, I gave up trying to diagnose her a long time ago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, how did you and the now wife meet?

Uh, Bumble. No, like any, like any, uh, good, good, uh, guy who's, who's way too busy to— and I have no interest in bars or, or, uh, sports or that kind of stuff. So yeah, we Bumble and, uh, was it Fabulous fishing grounds. Um, wasn't looking for a relationship. Um, had a, had a great time with it. Uh, enjoyed traveling. That was, you know, kind of, that was the app back in the day. And, um, the conversion rate was, was very high, so I enjoyed it. But the, um, met her once and it was just one of those dates where I said, wow, that was, that was actually fun. Like, I got to have a real conversation with somebody. Um, because I'd say most of the people that I had been meeting, um, you know, it's, it's surface conversations. You're talking about very, you know, low-level things. My, my, you know, when I met my now wife, you know, she was an entrepreneur. She was trying to do things. She was clearly— she's about 8 years younger than me, but really, like, had— like, she was trying. She was successful in her own right, had been, been doing really well and been on her own since she was a teenager. And, and so, yeah, they went well. We had a second, third, and then, you know, at some point it just became like You know, we're like, are we like a couple now? And, and it just kind of rolled from there. And we've been together, um, you know, really ever since. There was one breakup that we had, um, where we just said, okay, if this is it, I think it had been about 8 months that we've been together and both of us were really like, no, we're not getting married. No, we're not doing any of this. Um, and so we kind of said, yeah, it's, you know, we've been together, been together 8 months. We're, we're really doing well, but it's like, if, if we're not going to get married, if we're not going to start a family, then, then we need to go ahead and separate. And so we did. And then, and then about probably about a month later, you know, we got back together and said, okay, hold on, maybe there's something here. So let's go figure it out. And so, you know, we went to counseling together, we went and spent time together. We did travel together. We did lots of things. You know, I had kids. And as any of you guys, any of you single dads know, like when you have kids, your, your world and your timeline are so different. Your priorities are so different. And so while some people may love it or hate it, I imported in a 22-year-old Brazilian ballerina as an au pair. And a lot of people would think, "Oh my God, he's insane." No, she was absolutely fabulous, and that was what allowed, I think, my wife, then girlfriend, to, to understand, like, no, I am serious, because I, I made sure that the children were taken care of. There was clearly this, this girl that was living, uh, attractive girl living in my house that I had no interest in whatsoever, um, treated her like a daughter, was, was nothing but respectful to her and, and everything else. Um, and I think that was kind of the turning point where I said, look, I, I can— I just need to rethink what a relationship is, because prior to that, all the girls I dated, none of them ever met the kids. Like my current wife was the only one after a year and a half that ever got to meet the kids. And it became a thing that as soon as the girls would ask, like, when am I going to meet the kids? Was pretty much like that was the end of that because I just wasn't going to go through with that. Now, on the flip side, you know, my, my, my kids have met like everyone my ex-wife has ever like met or talked to on the phone. Like there's just a steady stream of, of guys that are rolling through their lives and there's a new one now. And I hope I like the guy. I think he's nice and I think he does well, but it freaks him out when I'm like, dude, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being nice to the boys and taking care of that. And you can just see like, like the panic on his face that like, I know that he's nice to the kids. Um, because, you know, we turn around and my ex is like, won't even acknowledge that my wife exists.

That's sad. That's sad. But expected. Hear that quite a bit. Yeah. That's unfortunate. But it sounds like you guys are doing very well. And, uh, a bit of a culture clash too, if I'm not mistaken. She's a Latina woman. Is that right?

Yeah, no, let me, let me tell you, uh, if you want to do marriage on hard mode, um, go ahead and find a Hispanic woman. They are, uh, they, they do not hide their emotions. Um, there is no filters. And so it makes for fighting really easy because there's never a time where I have to guess what's on her mind. Um, and you know, it's, it's one of those things that, uh, there's, there's no perfect relationship. Um, I know couples that don't fight ever. And I know couples that do nothing but fight. And quite simply, we sit somewhere in the middle. We have a good balance. I piss her off constantly because I'm ADD and I have all sorts of issues of my own. And she's a very, very focused OCD person. So we balance each other out. And like I said, we've spent 4 years working out of the exact same office. I sold my big company. Then we decided to do some startups together, so we spent 4 years building a portfolio of companies together. Then just in the last 30 days, I handed over full control to her to run all those and go off and build a few more things. It's been interesting.

The underlying tone there is, boy, that's a lot of trust on your part. Yeah, yeah, which for a guy with your background, so oof, that's tough.

Well, you know, it's also nice when, when your wife is making more than you do. So, um, you know, she, she didn't come in with, with, um, you know, bank accounts and, and, you know, boats and trust funds and, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, she came in with, with what I saw was just an amazing work ethic and the ability to enjoy working in a lifestyle business, which is the types of businesses I enjoy creating. So we spent some time getting to know each other in the business sense. We built a bunch of companies together. She's literally in the office next door. I keep seeing people out of the corner of my eye running out of there. I— she'll consult with me if she needs anything. You know, we substitute prenups for operating agreements. Um, so essentially, you know, she owns some of the companies outright. I own some of the companies outright. Some of them we own together. Um, but essentially, because we're— we don't have a prenup, we own everything jointly. Um, and, and that's been, that's been really, I have to say, a very freeing thought. Um, that if, that if something happens or we say we want to go, it's just like, yeah, come in, audit the company, split it up, we'll figure it out. Um, it's, it's not a fight like it would be last time. Um, you know, with, with my ex having nothing. She came in with nothing and she left with, you know, something. Um, but it was, it was, um, it's a lot. It's a lot. I'll say I don't recommend it to anyone, um, to do it this way. Uh, my lawyers were clearly concerned. Uh, but you know, we're, we already celebrated our year anniversary. Um, we're doing really well and, uh, of marriage and, you know, we, we just don't have issues.

Now, did I hear you say something about kids very early on in this? Is that something you guys are considering?

Yeah. So we're, uh, so I, I was fully fixed after the disaster of the second one being born. Um, I was like, I mean, my wife was, I think she was like in the hospital, like delivering. I was like, yep, I got snipped. Like, cool. I'm done. Never doing this again. Thank you so much. Um, so now I'm going to, we're exploring, you know, the reverse, uh, or adoption or whatever it is. So. I feel confident and comfortable enough that we've built our businesses, we've built our home, we're very comfortable in our lifestyles. It's something that I would like to have, raise a child in a semi-stable home. The other kids are fabulous, but for any of the dads out there, you know how it is. When your kids are gone, the house is very empty. And, and so I, I just, yeah, I think we're ready to start having that conversation. But we took some time. We said 2 years, 2 years dating, 2 years engagement, 2 years marriage, and then we can have a kid. So I'm an analytical planner.

Mm-hmm. Now, difficult question time.

Oh, let's go.

Given your background, Given, uh, you got some baggage you bring to the table, you're, you're only half the equation. Um, have you taken that analytical eye of yours and applied it to her and said, she's, she brings baggage because she's a human being, we all have baggage. Any concerns about the flavor of baggage that she's bringing to the table? And will, and how will bringing a child into the equation possibly amplify or bring that to the surface or anything like that?

Yeah, I mean, listen, a kid's always a wild card, um, you know, because especially if they're going to carry, you've got hormones, emotions, changes, like it's— they're never the same ever. And, and, you know, my wife is, is still today going, I may want to carry, or I may just want to adopt, or I may do a surrogate. Um, and, and she's sitting there weighing those options. She's, she's just as analytical as I am. Um, and, but the difference is this time around is that we're both focused on our relationship first. Um, and I think what happens in a lot of, uh, marriages is once the kids arrive is the kids are the priority and the kids are held up on this pedestal. Everything's about the kids. And, and you as parents, you're, you're working during the day and then you've got sports and after-school stuff and, and you don't have friends anymore. You have playdate friends and you have, you know, like this and that. And, and, and slowly you just become roommates with your spouse because You're not your own priorities. And so still to this day, whether we have the kids or not, Friday night is our night. No one without prior approval can take over Friday night. And that includes— there's, you know, we have— we still have full-time help that watches the kids. You know, they can watch. Yeah. I mean, we don't like— right now is pickup time and we just— there's certain things we just don't do. We focus, we focus on work and our priorities. And the kids really come secondary. And that may seem harsh in some respects, but that way the kids kind of have a more, a little bit deeper respect that when they do see me or us, you know, they're excited. They want to engage. They want to talk. And it's not, we're not a taxi driver. We're not, you know, their soccer coach. Like, we're mom and dad. And, you know, they do refer to my wife now as mom.

Oh, did they? Oh, wow.

Yeah. Usually, usually Mom 2.0 is what I, is what they call her. Um, but you know, it's, it's really hard, um, to think about, you know, what, what's going to change in our lives. I, I feel like we'll deal with it well. Um, we'll talk through it. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's clearly a concern, not just of mine, but of hers.

Absolutely. And wow, she took on a lot.

Oh God, she's my absolute hero because first off, I was a disaster. Like the fact that she could even deal with me is insane. And then you add in like two kids that were really messed up and with an ex-wife and that was really one of the tougher things that still to deal with is when your ex is so hateful. Is so like— and I don't know, you know, yours, yours was about the same as mine was way back when, but we haven't talked, so I don't know how— if yours has ever improved.

Oh, but like, my— not to interrupt, but yeah, mine has improved exponentially.

Oh, and I wish, and I wish. Um, mine's only slightly improved since she's got some new guy in her life. Um, but, but, you know, we'll see how long that one lasts. Yeah. Um, and, you know, when you, when you get into How do you deal with a hateful ex that's always hateful, that's always like talks trash about her around town, talks, you know, says horrible things to mutual friends? Like, it's really hard. So now I give— I always give my wife a lot of credit.

Yeah, okay.

Um, because she did take on a lot, and she gets my respect no matter what for that.

If you go online and look at like discussion forums and such for, um, stepmothers. The number one complaint is the crazy bio mom, as they call them, having to deal with the crazy. And that breaks up a lot of good relationships. I— because they— those stepmothers look and they go, I see decades of this coming up, and this is hell on a daily basis. She's making it as difficult as possible. These kids are suffering. My husband's suffering. I'm out.

Yeah, I, I quite simply, every time my ex says, you know, I'm their mother, it's like, you know, it's my favorite conversation to start. Congratulations, you, you did some work years ago. Um, you haven't seen your oldest child in close to 3 years. Wow. Your youngest one has had, you know, has needed medication for years, of which you've denied him. Um, and you know, it's just great. A child came out of your vagina. We'll give you a round of applause and, and we'll, we'll send you a cookie on their birthday. Um, I, I think it's this really stupid argument. And even when my friends are talking about other, you know, their relationships or their, you know, whatever the case is, I'm like, it's a, it's a dumb, it's a really dumb thing to say. So you're saying that any kid that's adopted, that's not their real parents? Like, are you saying that anyone that's been, you know, kind of transplanted out of their own guilt, like, those aren't parents? Like, you know, so I, I, I have zero sympathy for someone that they can— that their only hat they can hang on is, I'm a mother, or I'm a father, or in any way, shape, or form. Congratulations. Now it's time to prove it.

Yeah.

And that's the hard work.

Yeah. Yeah. It just, you know, there was a point for a lot of men where they eventually get to, um, and I could sense in you a lot of resentment still towards her. And that's not, that's not a knock on you so much. It's, it's obviously she's given you a lot of ammunition, a lot of stuff to work with. She's putting a lot of fuel in this.

This is the most I've talked about her probably in 4 or 5 years, to be honest. So it's a very interesting conversation.

Yeah. And but for a lot of men, you eventually get to this point of indifference. And then that point of indifference actually can mold in or morph into a sense of— what's the best way to look at it— empathy, sympathy, sympathy, where this poor person was broken from the get-go. Unfortunately, I introduced them into my life. It is what it is. We've got great kids out of the deal, but they're just a very broken person. I'm glad I don't have to deal with them on that level anymore, but I wish them all the best. I hope they get help with this. A lot of guys eventually get to that point, and that helps quite a bit. That's where I eventually got to. It's like, this isn't my fault, it's not her fault, it's just who she is. And for my— for my kids' sake and her sake, I hope it all works out for Speaking of kids, concerns going forward with their relationships in the future, because you know, your opposite-sex parent very much molds who it is you look for in a partner going to— so, oof, that's a little troubling.

Yeah, yeah. So here's a good story for all of you guys that are out there and want to know, like, what to expect. So I've got a 14-year-old who Good kid, you know, everybody says it. Straight A's, doing everything right, never interested in girls, you know, and again, hadn't seen his mom in close to 3 years for, you know, maybe a few minutes here and there, like just a passing dinner or whatever, and no real conversations. And suddenly the kid got really quiet and he stopped engaging with us. He stopped talking to us. School started slipping. Like, I mean, it happened instantly. And it went on for a while, and he kept saying he was sick, he didn't feel good, and all these things. And then finally, we just tore into it and said screw it, went through his phone, you know, grounded him, did everything to get him back on the line of school. And it turns out he had been dating or talking to some girl for about a month and a half that they were dating, and he hid it from us. He hid the fact. And I said, why would you do that? Like, what? Why is— are you embarrassed by us? He goes, no, I just didn't want to tell anyone that I did it. And so what we have to, you know, immediately dragged him into counselors, all that other stuff. And it's like, dude, just like, what a horrible thing you did to that girl, because you now put her in this, this horrible position where we think she's bad. She— what does she think about us that you, you're too embarrassed of us to even tell us that she exists, or vice versa. Like, how is that fair to her? And so yeah, you do have to deal with, with these exes and what they— in, you know, um, what would be the proper word— just unknowingly teach, are teaching these kids about how to lie and how to hide and how to, you know, deceive. And, and in this case, there was no reason. Like, I don't— we don't care who the girl is, and we don't care if you're dating. In fact, like, Multiple times my, my wife had driven my, our teenager to the mall thinking that he was meeting with a group of friends and he was off hiding with this girl. There was no, she wouldn't embarrassed him, would have nothing. Um, so yeah, you're right. It's, you, you, there's, there's a lot, a lot of fallout you deal with.

There sure is. And I haven't really, well, my, my oldest teen daughter who is almost done with high school now. Yeah, she went through a lot of issues, depression, the whole nine yards. And that was a pretty quick flip as well. And it coincided with puberty, the hormonal fluctuations and everything just really did a number on her mentally. And then, but just as quickly, almost like she kind of, enough of that. And it's just skyrocketed again. Now she's made Dean's List last couple of years and the whole nine. So fingers crossed. You know, it's just this thing. Yeah, 14 is when she just started really having difficulties, and then 16 is when you're like, whoa, who's this girl? And so it's hard to say, and how much of that is dependent upon what happened, you know, early when she was 9, when— or 8 or 9 when it all went down. Yeah, I don't know.

We were like, literally, we were twins in all this, um, because your kids were about the same age and we were, we were going through all that stuff, so Yeah, but I haven't, I haven't heard, um, other than seeing a few of the podcasts here. You guys are— got a new baby and everything else.

Yeah, so we're kind of ahead of you on that one.

Yeah, so how's that going?

It's going well. 4-month-old, um, she's doing, she's doing great. Does she sleep? Not well. Uh, still breastfeeding, so gets up at least once a night to do that. Um, going through a little bit of a sleep regression phase now of screaming her head off for no reason, then, "Eh, I'm fine now." Yeah, sounds fabulous. Babies love to do that kind of stuff. So this is my wife's first, so she looks to me for a lot of, "Is this normal? Is this normal?" And I keep coming with, "There's no such thing, really. They're all different." And she's an MD, so she can look the baby up and down and say, "There's nothing wrong here." No, there's nothing. It's just, welcome to the wonderful world of parenting. And yes, it does get better once you get past this infant phase. It gets better, but there's difficulties all along the way. Just wait till she hits 14. So it's a baby girl, so fun, fun.

Well, that's good.

Fun, fun. So you got the possibility of maybe starting a, starting a family of your own. There's the term. Um, the business is going well. She's A younger gal by how many years?

Uh, 8.

Yeah, mine's 6, so roughly the same. So very similar.

Yeah, as long as you're within a decade, you're keeping yourself hot.

Is that the, uh, keep yourself hot? I like it. I like it. And she gets along with your extended family? Everyone loves her?

Yeah, my parents, uh, my parents absolutely adore her. Um, you know, my sister passed away while we were dating. Um, sorry to hear that. So she was, uh, a fabulous rock to kind of have there. During that. And to give you an idea of how much my ex was liked amongst my family towards the end is my sister had CF, and so, you know, we knew from the time she was born it was going to happen. But usually within like a— she planned her entire funeral, and about a week or so before she kind of knew she was about to pass, she looked me in the eyes and said, don't you dare let that bitch come to my funeral.

It says it all right there, doesn't it? Wow.

Yeah, I said, okay, well, you know, there you go. I didn't— and I didn't have to say anything because she didn't even pretend to come or care.

Was there any of this animosity towards her from the family, uh, prior to her misstep in the marriage? She had fooled everyone, if you want to say that, of everything's perfectly fine, hunky-dory, and then click.

Every, every family trip, every holiday was was treated like, was treated as an equal, as a daughter. Um, I mean, still to this day runs around town with my last name like it's hers.

Um, interesting, interesting.

No, no idea why she, she kept the last name, but she did. Um, so yeah, I mean, it was, it was quite simply, um, there was just a, a shift in gravity and a shift in reality. And, um, you can't change You can't change her reality. Um, you can't change, you know, the way she thinks or perceives. And I gave up a long time ago trying to talk or educate her. The new term is give a TED Talk to her that she can understand or care about. She doesn't care. Um, once her check's on time, once her, once her, you know, kids— one, once she can have them. Um, but, you know, everything's about her.

Any advice to gentlemen out there listening who are nodding their head because their wife— that he's caught the wife, you know, texting some other man, um, sneaking around. She's going through a little bit of a crisis to start getting real into shape. The CrossFit gym— I don't know what the hell's going on with the world of CrossFit. I, I don't know what they've tapped into there, but how many times have you and I heard online or otherwise, my wife joined a CrossFit gym and it all just went to hell after that? So I mean, what would you say to these gentlemen that are like, I think there's a chance of reconciliation, I think there's a chance of turning this around, I think I can out-rationalize this and appeal to— the real her is in there somewhere and I can reach her, I think.

Yeah, listen, no one's ever gonna— let me back up. I get calls, I used to get at least 2 or 3 calls a week of people when you're going through it and it's public and everyone knows you're gonna go through it and you get all these calls from people saying like, what do I do? 'What's your lawyer and everything else?' And the first thing I say to everyone is just go to counseling. Just immediately go to counseling. I don't care what your issues are. Find a professional counselor and just get there. I can— and then if you need— if you still need a lawyer, call me back. I'm happy to talk you through those steps. And I'd say about two-thirds of them I never hear from again. What I would say for if you're in that mix and you're really going through there and you still want to have a chance, if they're willing to delete their social media profiles, if they're willing to change their habits and focus on the family. And I'm not saying like, oh, we're going to, you know, I'm going to give up a little bit of this and that. Like, if they're really willing to throw— when I say throw away, I mean delete your social media, delete all those friends, delete the social calendar, delete this and just say they're willing to sit around that house with you and stare at you in a comfortable way, meaning you're actually going to like engage and try. Under the professional guidance of a counselor, you know, see where it goes. But as long as that social media account is active, as long as that gym membership is active, as long as those— I don't even know what to call them, you know, just the distractions and the ego pits are there. I just don't know how you deal with it. And I'm not saying that everyone that has an Instagram account or a TikTok account is an evil person. I'm just saying every second they spend, you know, focusing on themselves or someone else is a second that you're losing family time with.

You just said an awesome phrase there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna adopt the ego pits. Perfect, perfect. But let's be realistic. What are the chances percentage-wise of you going to a person who's deep into the ego pit world and and saying, drop all that, focus on us, focus on me and you and the kids and the family. I think it's in the—

Oh, you'll get a temporary pivot.

You'll get a temporary pivot.

Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you'll get the, oh yeah, fine, fuck it, here's my throne. I don't need my throne. What do you want? Are you happy now? Are we all good now? I don't know how to get past that. I couldn't. And I'm very glad I didn't because there was never anything that was gonna be there. And I think that at some point, you know, I talked about the 4 phases and I talk about that often. You know, despair, anger, revenge, and then acceptance. And, and I really— it's, it's been kind of my phrase that I tell everyone constantly. It's like, just where are you at now? Some people live for the rest of their lives in that despair. Some people, you know, takes them a year of despair and then they get to anger, and then they're in anger forever. And some people are in revenge. I just— I'm at the point and I just don't care. My ex can say whatever she does, and it's like, yeah, Of course you're upset. Of course you're mad about that. I don't respond. We moved. We've gone back and forth with the apps to coordinate with stuff with the kids. It turns into just a never-ending fight because I think the things like— we use Two Houses, but I know there's the My Family Wizard. I think those are the worst apps in the world. I think those are absolutely horrible because they're actually— I'm not familiar with them. Documenting and threading out all of your disagreements into these perfectly choreographed timelines that you can never let go. And if you're texting and just like, look, I just have to deal with you. I don't need to— I'm not going to teach you anything, whatever the case is. And I like that if you're bickering with your ex or whatever the case is, and then you have a couple logistics things, like it pushes the stuff to the top of the page and it goes away. Like, I can't tell you when we were on these apps, there'd be times like, like 6 months later she would reactivate an argument thread and like, what did you ever do with this? I don't know. Like, here's the 5 other texts that we did, we did that, we moved past this and now you want to like, so I hate those things. I think that they're good from a monetary value. Um, but Jesus, like who's, there's no warriors involved anymore. Like she keeps bringing up like, you know, the judge is gonna, you know, needs to see these things documented. I'm like, there hasn't been a judge in our case in like 5 years. Like, do you— who— what are you talking about?

So with, with this type of dynamic that you're describing, I always suggest to people to adopt what they call the gray rock mentality, which is something that I didn't make up. You can find online, which is the, the response to somebody who has narcissistic tendencies or borderline personality type stuff. When they emote to you and do actions that make you just sit there and go, huh, don't engage. And don't go, oh yeah, but you're wrong because— no, it's just gray rock, stone, stoic. Okay.

Oh, or my favorite, my favorite thing is to let my ex have the last word. Just let her have that.

There you go.

There you go. Thank you, thank you for teaching me. All right, talk to you later. Yes. All right, thumbs up. Nothing pisses her off more than like, got it.

That— and nothing pisses her off more because you're not engaging, you're not playing the game, you're not giving her— you're not validating her and everything else. It's, it's the best slash worst thing for her, best thing for you, for your mental health.

Yeah, no, I, I— and that's, that's part of the biggest thing that I can tell anyone that's out there that's really struggling with this. And if you take anything away from my whole chaos is go be happy. Go focus on— like, go be selfish. Go, go really focus on you. Um, you know, get— go to the doctor, get your testosterone checked, get your— get to the gym, you know, figure, figure out what, what you need to do. Because if you're not happy, um, if you're so focused on winning these arguments with this person who's no longer relevant in your life, like, where— you know, there's nowhere for you to go. Yeah. Um, as soon as you're happy and you're confident and you're able to, to do things on your own, your kids are going to recognize that, and they're going to come to you. Uh, you're, you're, you're going to attract, you know, better people into your life. Um, and you'll start doing the same thing with friends. Like, I have friends, when they turn toxic, uh, in any way, shape, or form, or they just want to talk about things that are bad, it's like, that's cool. Like, I just, I'm okay. I don't need that. Um, and, and that's me just being selfish.

Selfish, I think, has the negative connotation, but in that regard, I could say that's just you being mentally healthy.

Yeah, there's plenty of boundaries and walls.

That's you having boundaries. Exactly right. I think that's a perfect ending to this. Jay, thank you so much. Is there anything you want to promote at all? Anything you want to talk about?

No, I am, I am so busy right now. I'm putting in 60, 70 hours a week. We're growing like crazy. So all our companies are fabulous. And if there's anything that you guys want to do or care about one bit that came out of this, it is listen to what this man says. Listen to what Ralph Brewer is talking about. Join his fraternity and really build your wagon. Circle your wagons. Understand what it takes to have the village that supports you. Just know that you may have to give up a few things. You may have to give up some things that you feel are important to you at the time. One of those is being right. You don't need to be right. You just need to be healthy. And being healthy is more important than, in your mind, being right. And I think that's, that's one of the things that, you know, again, like 7, 8 years ago, you just absolutely were instrumental in pivoting my mindset. So thank you.

Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. You were pivotal in mine as well. So I have you and a lot of guys online like you to thank for it. So there wouldn't be a DSO if it wasn't for an army of men like us who've been there and done that. Right. So, Jay, fabulous. You got to go. So thank you so much, buddy. I appreciate it.

Be good.

All right. Have a good one.