Interview With Karen and Catherine From My Divorce Solution

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at helpformen.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. Well, the divorce ladies, as I call you, welcome to the Dad Starting Over podcast. Appreciate it. If you could, Catherine and Karen, whoever wants to go first here, uh, tell us all about your product. And we'll get into it about what guys can expect, or what guys, uh, who should come to you for help, what they should expect. But maybe we should start with the genesis of all this. How did you guys get into this world, if I may? Whoever wants to go first.

Well, we both have experience with divorce personally. So when I went through my divorce 12 years ago, and I had been a financial planner really wasn't about the finances for me, but I realized that my documentation was not supported well with the language in the agreement. So I set out to want to really just help people go through and have financial clarity, but realized it was much more than that. And so I knew Karen and went to her and said, we need to bridge this gap and we need to do this together. And so she was all on board for that. Um, after going through it personally herself as well. So we've been able to create a 10-step process now to streamline and have people prepared and financially clear on the next steps that they need to take. Yeah.

And so when Katherine came to me, um, I was ready to move on and I have, um, a deep commitment, I guess, for people going through the divorce process as even though I had, by virtue of my professional experience, a pretty good fundamental understanding of how litigation works, how divorce works, I did not have the financial clarity that I needed. And so a year after my divorce, I was— I found myself back in court with several issues because my agreement didn't protect me. So when Katherine came to me, we both understood that there is a gap between the legal requirements and the financial analysis. And our goal in our 10-step process is to help people understand that it's really important to prepare for divorce. And that is in the gap of between financial analysis and legal requirements. It's a preparation of knowing what you have, knowing what it means to you, and knowing what your options are. And then from there, choosing mediation, litigation, or whatever doorway, um, you choose to go next.

And you guys created a solution, which is My Divorce Solution, and you can find more at mydivorcesolution.com. By the way, excellent domain URL that you picked there. You guys lucked out with that one. I mean, that's awesome, um, from a marketing standpoint. I'm a marketing guy, so I like that kind of stuff. Uh, so I'm a guy who is— statistically, we know if you're a man who was married the chances are it's the lady who comes to you that says, I don't think this is going to work anymore. I think we need to split up. The divorce-wise, just the divorce-wise, we know that around 70% of the time it's the lady for a variety, a myriad of different reasons, just the way it is. So these men that I talk to come to me and say, I have been surprised, I didn't see this coming out of nowhere, which is a whole other ball of wax. Usually if they had their eyes open, they would have seen it coming. But anyway, um, so now they say, what should I do? Typically, my advice over the years has been get the old spreadsheet out and just start laying out all the assets, all the debts, the ages of the kids, all that stuff, so that you can then in turn go to an attorney and say, Mr. Attorney, here's the deal, what do you think? But from what I'm hearing, that may not be necessarily the best solution, uh, to all of this. There may be a good in-between step. You may not necessarily need to go to a full-blown attorney. So where do you guys fit into that mix? I'm a guy who's been surprised. I don't know where to go first. I'm starting to write down assets, debts, and all this other stuff. Where do you guys come into that play?

We're probably both dying to jump into this question, but since I spoke first, I'll jump in first and then can't pick up. Okay, so I, I find it interesting, um, you know, the surprise element. You know, a lot of times we hear it the other way around, so it's nice for everyone to know that both people are feeling this, this surprise or not being ready. And I love the fact that we're on here talking today about the female and male version, and we all have similar feelings. So the problem with jumping in and going to an attorney with a spreadsheet that you create yourself You're, you're bringing that, but there's no exercise going through that on what you really need to consider with all those numbers that you're putting down and what you need to support that. And there's already a disconnect of trust between you and your spouse. And even when you want to be amicable, which amicable, amicable means staying out of court, basically, you coming through our process gives you the chance to put emotional value to those numbers that you're putting on a spreadsheet. Put in an exercise of knowing what your options are and knowing what the consequence and the impact to those options are. But it's a safe space for both parties, even if just one's the client, before you go to an attorney so that you have a clear head, you're informed, and an informed client is the best client because it gets the best results for you. And so it's just a little different coming through our process than just jumping to an attorney because you don't even know what type of attorney you actually need.

That's so true. And you know, it starts out a lot of people, I would think probably most people when they're anticipating divorce, and I just want to say there are a fair amount of people who come through My Divorce Solution and choose to stay married because once they get the financial clarity, they realize what the problem was all along. And it's the breakdown was in that space and they were able to correct it. So that's just an aside, just based on what you said a while ago. But, you know, one of the greatest fears is that financial fear. How much am I going to receive in support? How much am I going to pay in support? What numbers are going to be factored in? All of those things need to be played out. Is it my base salary? You know, do the commissions and bonuses factor in? And if they do, when and how? All of those details can be understood before you start the process. We have a lot of people that come to us with that net worth spreadsheet, and that net worth spreadsheet gets translated or interpreted by the court in a very different way from how people understand it when they're managing their household finances, you know. And mostly because what is the marital component? Are there premarital, post-separation values? Are there gifts? There's all kinds of factors that go into what it is in, in the first place. So for anyone approaching or thinking about divorce, it is, first of all, it's clarity before you start the process. And everyone should know if you're going to an attorney or a mediator, either one, they're going to ask you, what do you want? And most people come at it from an emotional perspective or from a place that they don't know what they don't know. And then that's what the mediator and attorney pretty much goes on.

Ideally, you would want the couple, probably going to divorce couple, to come in together to see you folks, like, uh, the soon-to-be ex-wife and I here are talking about divorce. We found yourmydivorcesolution.com online. We would like to go through this process together to see where we stand if in fact we do divorce financially. Is that the ideal solution, or most of the time— that is the ideal, but most of the time do you just have one of the partners coming in?

Well, it doesn't matter to us either way. So even if you come in as a solo client we will invite your spouse to participate. And so the difference between the two is if you come in together, all communication is, is done together. Uh, there's not one-off conversations. If you come in as a solo client, then we can have more one-on-one conversations with you, but we will invite your spouse to participate. And we have over a 90% participation rate of spouses. Um, so for us, we treat you the same. We treat you the same way. Because, you know, it's funny you call us the divorce ladies. I actually love that. It's not that we're holding a flag up that you should get divorced. It's just that we believe that families deserve better and we've been able to create a process where they're treated better and the outcome is better for them.

Yeah. And you know what? I don't think that there is really a plan A or the ideal way because sometimes that spouse could be male or female. That was not the financial manager, sometimes they just need a chance to catch up and understand some basic fundamental aspects of not, not so much money management, but understanding how their household was managed. We have a client now who happens to be a male who, they have 3 small children and he works tirelessly as a physician. So he was completely out of the loop in the financial management. So he's taken the time to get up to speed, to understand. It took him some time to figure out that it's okay that you, you don't have this knowledge. You, you can gain this knowledge. And so now he's on par with his spouse and watching them have good constructive conversation about it. They're still getting divorced. They're still not amicable. But they're able to have constructive conversation about it, and he doesn't feel so far in the dark. So that's been a good exercise. So I just say that from a space of there's no one way to do it. It's really whatever works for your family.

And, you know, I want to bring something up about the men out there because I know we're talking to a lot of men right now, or a lot of men are listening. Our process gives them the space where they could talk to us, but we're not afraid to guide them. Right? So a lot of times I feel like men are trying to do the right thing, but their emotions aren't caught up with their logical thinking. Right? So, or, you know, a lot of them are quick to come to a conclusion without thinking about what you have to do to get to that conclusion. Um, so our process allows for that for them. You know, we understand that they have emotions too, and being able to talk through that I think is really rewarding than, than going to two attorneys who then just talk to each other. You know, you don't— your voice is never really heard because your attorney interprets what you're saying to your spouse's attorney, who then interprets it a whole nother way and delivers it to that spouse. So a lot of times some men get a bad rap because the message is being delivered wrong. And so from our point, they get to show us those spreadsheets that they spend all this time on, but then we get to show them how you have to support that spreadsheet and what's to consider with that spreadsheet than just the spreadsheet itself. There's much more to the spreadsheet.

Very good. Does your program address the issue of potential child support alimony? Is, is the client going to get a better picture of that once going through your system?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So support numbers are run with a lot of different assumptions. So we do have disclaimers on them, but we do go through some support calculations and some ranges, basically.

Yeah, because I think, you know, everyone needs to understand on what basis those support calculations are calculated, right? How does it work? What's considered important line items, discretionary or non-discretionary? What factors in, what doesn't factor in, because in most states, and actually in all states, spousal support is calculated on a person's ability to pay and the other spouse's need. So what is the definition of an ability to pay? What is the definition of someone's need? Those are the things we go through them, through with them, so that they have a better understanding when they're trying to articulate it to their counsel or or to the conference officer or to the eventual judge.

I wanna add a layer to that because that has a lot to do with spousal support. But then child support in every state is a guideline. That, that is a clear-cut calculation, right? But what we often see in here is that, you know, let's just use the dad who's working all the time. And so the stay-at-home mom is all up in arms because now Dad, who's been working all the time, is saying, well, wait a minute, I want to have the kids half the time. And Mom believes that's because Dad doesn't want to pay so much in support, because a big consideration or assumption is the overnight stays that you have with your children. Where when we talk about it, well, maybe Dad's trying to do it a little differently now. Maybe he realized that now that divorce is here, guess what? I really wasn't present with my kids and I want to be present now and I'm going to adjust my work schedule. So there could be that legit dad that's doing that because he wants to develop a different relationship. But the bad rap out there is that dad is only doing that so his support number is lower. So when we actually look at the difference of overnight stays, there's not a big drastic change in the number for most cases unless you're going over the 50%, like to 80, 90%. So a lot of times couples are spending so much money fighting over this for a support calculation. The difference is so much less than they're paying their attorneys to fight over it. So I think if when you come through our exercise where you remind them that what is— what you, you have to give the dad an opportunity to spend more time with his kids. And Dad, don't be doing this just because you don't wanna pay support, because if it's not realistic, you'll go for a modification next year anyway. So I like that we have that space that we can actually give them that as considerations, and they hear it from people who aren't attorneys who are just talking to you about what you need to consider before you go down any rabbit hole that you shouldn't go down.

Mm-hmm. Good segue to my next question. Are attorneys fans of your program? Are you not cutting into potential billable hours here?

Yes, we are.

Absolutely, we are.

And we're quite happy about that.

And you're quite happy.

Well, you know, good at—

so sorry.

No, go ahead, Kathy.

Go ahead. I always say a good attorney is going to show up with a prepared client because an attorney is not trained in document collection and financial assessment. That's not what they go to law school for. They go to have that information in front of them so they could shine as attorneys. We need them to be the best advocates that they can and work to that. And so they can't do that when they get an emotional client that changes their mind every day on what do I want today? What do I want tomorrow? What's my spouse saying I can have? And they attach themselves, and every day they change. So an attorney can run, run all over the place doing that, or that attorney kind of shuts them off and waits to the week before a hearing to say, let's go over this. But in the meantime, you just have a frantic client. So when you come through our process, what we're really proud of is that you're going through all that first, and we're a flat fee, so you don't have to worry about it. It's a very fluid process. And now you sit in front of an attorney who's— you're prepared, but you're so prepared, you feel better, you advocate for yourself, and then you know if you even have the right attorney for you. You know, I don't— might not need Karen's attorney who she used. I might need a different attorney because the complexities of my estate are much different. And so you don't know that until you go through our financial exercise. It's 10 easy steps. Yeah.

And I would Go ahead.

Well, I was just going to say directly in response to your question, you know, we're an emerging company. We're 6 years young and, you know, more and more people hear about us. As a matter of fact, it's super hard to keep up. But from an attorney's perspective, there's so many, a lot of them haven't heard of us. So one of the first things that we do when we're hired, if you have an attorney already, we get on the phone with you and your attorney to talk about our role, what their strategy is, and how can we support the whole team to get to the finish line. And we're able to ask questions very specific to a client's financial needs where the attorney can then trust in what we're doing. Because short of that, the paralegal's doing all that paperwork and they're certainly not financially trained, right? They can, they can do the data in the document. And I'm paralegal trained. That's what I did for 30 years. But we're, you know, there's, there was no financial sophistication behind it. It was more data entry. And I know how to fill out this form the way the courts want it, wants it filled out. So we're able to hop in there and ask very specific questions. As a matter of fact, I was on the phone yesterday with a client. It's another male, as a matter of fact, and they had just got temporary orders, um, because he was paying way more than he should have been because he was just paying all the household bills. So when he hired us, we helped him understand that temporary orders needed to be in place. And so we— that they got that done. So I'm on the phone with counsel and I said, okay, so we have temporary orders in place, so who's paying what? And I just got a stare. So he said, oh, can you help us figure that out and we'll do a stipulation for that. So, so sometimes the, you know, people don't realize that attorneys have upwards of 60, 70 clients. They're just responding to the fires, and most clients are changing their minds daily. So, you know, you're not going to get that financial foundation if you don't take the time to prepare and, and have an intentioned way of getting that done.

You know, the way I'm looking at it, maybe I'm naive in this, but if I'm, if I'm an attorney listening to this, wouldn't I look at this as, oh, Oh wow, I can offload a big chunk of my work, stuff that I have 2 or 3 people running around and trying to, you know, collect all this information and do all this stuff. I can simply say, all right, Mr., Miss Client, the first thing we're going to do is we're going to have you get in touch with our friends over here at mydivorcesolution.com, and they have a program and it's going to cost you this much, and we're going to put all this stuff nice and neat together. That way we can hit the ground running, we know exactly what's going on, there are no surprises, and the judges love this stuff because we come with a literal binder of stuff and it's all prepared and it's all nice and neat. It versus— that sounds to me, as a guy who was, you know, chronically overworked, that sounds— to be able to hand work to others sounds like a very good thing. But again, I'm not an attorney. Maybe they in fact look at this and they have, you know, a partner to report to who says, how many billable hours do you have? Why are your billable hours 20% less? This is no bueno. I guess it's a, you know, a corporate culture of what's going on with the law firm. But I would think there's a big chunk of the law firms out there that would look at you guys as a major blessing.

No, Well, first of all, they can handle double the cases they're handling now because they'll get their clients through in a faster fashion. And once you do that to one person, they're referring all their friends to you. So if you're saving costs, so they, their billable hour, yes, will go down, but their net revenue should probably go up. Last week I was on with an attorney we'd been working with the client and the attorney for a while, and he said, oh, I looked at my schedule today, so I'm talking to someone from MDS. I don't really have to prepare because they have it all prepared for me. So what do we need to talk to? And I thought, great, he's going to get on a podcast and talk about that. Um, so he was thrilled to see that. And, and the good attorneys love working with us. They are so thankful because they don't want to do that. They don't do the financial assessment, and they want their clients to be informed.

Agreed.

So, okay, so, so ditto. So I'm a— I'm listening to this, and I'm a guy that's just been hit with a divorce hammer. I haven't done any work of putting everything down on paper yet. I know I need to, but I haven't gotten around to it. I'm listening to this going, oh, maybe I should contact these ladies. What's the first step? Can you walk us through the process and how this goes and what they should expect?

So if you go to the website mydivorcesolution.com, there's a button right on the home page that says Get Started. So you take an assessment, and it's about 8 questions, just generally starting the education process, essentially, of, of what it means to prepare for divorce. So all— we're not doing the work for you, we're doing the work with you. So you answer the 8 questions, you get an email back telling you the importance of those questions, and you schedule a free assessment call with one of the lead advisors here that takes you through your assessment. And we really go through and help you understand the basic components of your marital estate. Because that's how we set our fixed fee pricing. We answer your questions, you hire us. The first thing we do, unless you already have an attorney involved, the first thing we would do— if you do, we get on the phone with your attorney. The second thing is you start with your income and expense, you provide the documents, we help you with your financial disclosures, and then you'll schedule a review call with your divorce financial specialist. All of our divorce financial specialists have a financial background. They are all trained CDFA, Certified Divorce Financial Analysts. None of them will be investing your money, and they're all trained mediators. So the benefit of that type of expertise is not only in understanding your financials, but also how to articulate them to your attorney, to your mediator, to your spouse, because there's an art in conversation when you're divorcing. So through those conversations, through the work with the income and expense, we build out the divorce financial portrait. So you know what you have, you've been able to provide us all the documents, you know what, how those documents are interpreted in the courts, you know your options, your division scenarios, and your full ability to compromise. And so we call it the 10-step process. End to end. Once you pay the fee, we're never talking about money again unless you need ad hoc services, but most people do not. But the portrait is what it is.

Very good. Now, is that your fee? Did I hear— did I hear right? Is it in part contingent upon the client's worth? So if I have a— if I have a net worth of $10 billion, do I pay more than the guy who's in the hole, $60 grand?

No, it's on the complexity. Yeah, it's on the complexity of your marital estate.

Okay.

So it's based on the assets and debts that you will need valued and assessed relative to your marital estate. So if your spouse joins in, there's not an additional fee.

Yeah, because we're doing the same change in the new year because there's so much value. So for example, our minimum fee is $4,500. So it's $4,500, that's like each person paying $2,250. $2,250 to do your whole discovery process. And if you're listening to this, you're probably falling off your chair because in most cases you're paying $5,000 each just for the first month to start with communication, right? So because we're getting more and more spouses, of course, if you sign up now, our fee has not changed. But I do, I do see the value. We see it every day, the value. You know, we're in every state, we're in a couple of countries. The value. And I think the more that another spouse will feel that value is if we give them a different fee structure. And so it's something we're talking about. But for that, for right now, it's not. It's one price for both parties, whether you participate or not. But that's how much we truly believe in our process and how it really will change your journey drastically by coming through. I don't think there's anyone that should go through— should not go through our process. If you have a house and a couple of accounts or anything, just the conversations alone are valuable to you. Even how Karen does a whole thing about how communicating, how do you communicate with your attorneys, that I think is valuable right there in itself. And we love what we do. I mean, we are the Divorce Ladies, like you say, but it's because we believe that families deserve better when you're going through this process. And we're bound and determined to make that happen, financially speaking.

Very good. Excellent. Anything more to add to that, Ms. Karen?

I do not have anything more to add to that. Just that, you know, we absolutely believe in our process. And in the deliverable portrait that you get, you know, you are going to know your division scenarios and all that. But we also provide what's called a table of recommendations and considerations., and that sets out for every asset and debt that you have, all of the factors that also need to be negotiated to get a really good settlement. So for instance, if you're dividing a marital home, if you're going— if one party is going to refinance or one party is going to stay on the mortgage so you don't have to refinance, because a lot of our couples in this past year have that low interest rate from the pandemic. And so to refinance would be very burdensome. So if you're going to do that, what are all the other line items that you have to negotiate to make sure that you're protected first? And so that if something goes south, you have remedies, like if the mortgage doesn't get paid by that spouse or a whole variety of things, you know, what do you need to negotiate for the what-ifs? So again, so that your marital settlement agreement is as solid as possible and that both of you have confidence in what you're agreeing to.

What percentage of the time— I don't know if you have a number off the top of your head— um, are both parties involved in the process? And how often is it just somebody doing this, you know, on their own? I, I can, I can see so many men coming to me saying, oh, there's no way I could bring my soon-to-be ex to the to the table in this kind of process. She would fight me tooth and nail. I'm just going to go on my own and, and get it done, and then, then I will present it to her and attorneys and so forth. How often is it both people coming together?

Hi, we have about a 90% participation rate from spouses.

90%, okay.

Well, that's participation, not necessarily co-client.

Yeah, so if, if, if it's that guy who said, my, I'm not, I'm going to do this first and then later I'll bring it up to her That's very common. And so what's nice is from the start, from the launch call on, you know, we're getting to know you and we're hearing some of these stories. You know, we're not your therapist, we're not going down that lane, but we do hear what's happening with each account and how things have transpired. And so when we see an opening, you know, this might be a good time for us to introduce ourselves to your spouse. Remember our introduction? We teach that we teach them. We give them some verbiage on what to say to their spouse about us. And then our letter to them is very nice. It's basically, you know, that we've been hired and we're just here in the hopes that you two will come to an amicable dissolution. We're just putting together your marital estate. And we offer them a phone call by themselves to learn about our process. And so we're not attorneys and we don't file. So people aren't really— spouses aren't really against talking to us because they're going to get some intel that they're probably afraid to ask their spouse about, right? Where they're going to say, okay, great, because he hasn't given me this information or she hasn't given me this information. So it's a very non-combative process coming through our process. But again, we help with the verbiage on how to actually tell your spouse.

Yeah, I do, I do feel like sometimes when it's the male spouse seeking us out, the female, um, doesn't really— especially if they haven't been the financial manager, there's already mistrust. So they're not going to trust who that person is seeking counsel from in the divorce arena. So a lot of times it's more so when the non-financial manager— I'll just say it that way— the non-financial manager comes to us, then the other spouse is more willing to engage because they already know. Like, I was on a conversation last week where he said, look, I'll be a co-client or not a co-client. At the end of the day, I just need us to be on the same playing field. So whatever she needs to happen, that's fine, and I'm going to participate. So, but I, I can tell you in my experience from the conversations I have on the front end that it is difficult when the— I'm taught when the financial manager is hiring us for the non-financial manager to come on, at least in the beginning. Do they come on later on? Absolutely. It's just not something to— so that they would do in the beginning.

To your point of I'm never going to get my spouse to participate, I would think, I would think that the non-financial manager partner would look at this as, oh, here we go, you know, roll their eyes and say, yet another controlling, trying to, you know, put everything down on paper like he's always talking. He or she always wants to talk about budgets and more of this nonsense. I'm trying to get away from this, for goodness sakes. But yeah, they need, they, they need to be shown like, no, this is a impartial. This is just a tool for both of you to use. It's in both your favors and so forth. And it sounds like you guys do a good job of kind of bridging that gap to show that this isn't a contentious thing here. This isn't, you know, one attorney against the other type of thing. This is literally a tool that you both can benefit from, right? So yeah, mydivorcesolution.com, guys, check it out. Karen and Catherine, thank you both so very much. Any other final words? Any— you talked about there may be, maybe a potential fee increase you're talking about potentially next year, or at least a change in the way the fees are done. So it sounds like, guys, if you're— this is one of those things you want to say buy now. But if this is something that you're in the middle of a process of, and you're like, I don't know, what should I do? I haven't called the attorney yet. I haven't done— or I called the attorney, the attorney says get all my stuff on paper. I haven't— now's the time. You know, New Year's around the corner, start doing things right, get all your ducks in a row. And it sounds like this is a no-brainer process to do exactly that. Just cross all your T's, dot all your I's, put everything on the table. And so there's no big surprises down the line because it seems like with all these divorces and stuff, there's a big aha moment. But why not, you know, put everything down on paper, so to speak, so you can eliminate those, or at least as much as humanly possible, and make what is a very— well, sometimes traumatizing experience, at least emotional, that's for sure, emotional experience. And try to, um, pull emotion out of the equation as much as humanly possible and be as pragmatic. And, oh, uh, um, you know, just look at this as a ones and zeros thing that it is when it all boils down to it. When you take all the emotion out of it, it's just a who gets what, who pays what, who's liable for what legally, financially, and go from there. And this is the tool to get that done. MyDivorceSolution.com. Karen, Katherine, Thank you, ladies, so much.

Thanks for having us so much.