Interview With Michael - Reader and DSO Fraternity Member Who Transformed Himself in Five Months

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. All right, folks, once again, another episode of the Dad Starting Over podcast. And that is our new intro music. How about that, Michael? What do you think?

I like it.

Good.

I like it.

Oh, cool. Suitably, suitably manly enough for the—

does the job, does the job, but not too, too over the top.

Well, Michael, thank you for doing this, buddy. I appreciate it. This is what we call a little one-on-one interview with a reader/follower of the Dad Starting Over world, and you are a member of the DSO fraternity. So thank you for that.

Thank you for the invitation.

How, how, yeah, how in the world did you find me in the DSO world? Let's start there.

So, uh, the first conversation that I had, um Well, I just sent you like, I saw the ad on Facebook, of course, like everyone else. And the first message that I sent you was right after the passing of my daughter. We had a stillborn at like 38 weeks. And, you know, I was always like, working hard on our marriage. And then, and then this we lost our daughter and it had just happened maybe like a few weeks after. And so this popped up on my thing and I sent you a message and I said, hey, you know, I didn't buy the book, but just nice to know that there's something there or something along those lines. But I'm, you know, I'm not going to buy the book yet. Or you said it, you said, okay, Michael, good luck, you know, and, and because I just saw statistics of, you know, divorce after a tragedy. And I wanted to make sure I was in line. And so I said, you know, I really got into like the Jocko podcast and David Goggins and all this kind of stuff of just having that leadership mindset. And so before buying the book, I was like working towards that. And then you know, it was a pretty good pregnancy. But during the pregnancy, like, her and I— so yeah, sorry, my wife got pregnant again. And so yeah, we were trying to have a baby and like, things were going really, really well. And she got pregnant and we just both had anxiety to be intimate. We're just like, that was just like cut off, you know what I mean? And, and after the baby came, I'm like, okay, we're good. You know, baby's good. Like, let's— and like, so that was 9 months of no intimacy.

Wow.

And her— but her and I were both like, just so stressed out about not losing the baby again, that it wasn't even a— it wasn't an issue for me. But until we had the baby, and the baby's like, there and we're good. I'm like, my engine just started like right back up again. And for my wife, it was like a lot more different. It was like, you know, hold your horses. We just had like a cesarean section here and, and, you know, stressful. And, and so I was like, okay, you know, when you have that expectation and then it's like, whoa, hold on, hold on. I said to myself, okay, I'm gonna look into this book because I felt my neediness just like coming up and coming up. And then there's like resentment. I'm like, and I was saying to myself, why doesn't she actually see like, you know, that I'm here, you know? And like one of the first chapter of the book, I think is like, if your wife had a cesarean section, give her a break, you know? So I'm like, from that point on, I'm like, okay, this book is gonna just point me in the right direction to become the best guy that I can be, like, for my wife and for my— and then I realized throughout the 10 years of marriage, I had only been doing the 5 mistakes.

Interesting, interesting.

And so, like, we're conservative Christians, and, and so we didn't have sex before marriage. But we both had experience before that. So, you know, college days, all that kind of stuff. I wasn't Christian or anything like that. But we kind of— I said, like, from the first date, she wasn't Christian. And I said, you know, just letting you know, I'm Christian, and I'm looking for my wife, and I'm not gonna have sex to distract me. In that. So this is the time that I'm taking to get to know you, to date you, but no sex.

Wow.

And this was in the driveway before going to meet her brothers and her two brothers, big hockey players. And like, she's like, you know, protected by them. And so we go into this party and her brother's like, Jess, are you okay? It looks like you got hit by a car.

She didn't know what to make of that.

No, she didn't. She didn't. But you know, that was like a boundary that I put right from the start. And, and, and yeah, so there's that in your red flags book. It's like if people, you know, especially people who wait for marriage and stuff like that, they'll dive into marriage and not necessarily be compatible, you know, sexually, and And so when we got married, it was like, my sex drive is like this, 2 times a day. And hers is like, more like LT, you know, normal, like normal, but on the lower side. And my attitude was just basically like, you know, if I just try harder, then she'll want me more. If I'm just nicer, happy wife, happy life. Then I increase my chances. And like, you know, I repeated all that stuff, you know, vacuuming. Yeah, saying like, hey, do you see me? Do you see me vacuuming? You know, all that kind of stuff, which over 10 years just builds resentment and builds resentment. I remember when we first started, when we first were married, it was like, hey, honey, can I like have a back rub or whatever? And And like, that slowly morphed to, you know, I'm— I don't want a back rub because it was always just like me going for the back rub and then going for more.

You know what that meant?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And, you know, the COVID contracts, all this kind of stuff. And so this really— the Dead Bedroom Fix opened my eyes to, to what was wrong with me, basically. To what the attitudes that, and the actions that I was doing, that was building resentment, or that was building like a coldness maybe on her part, or, and, and so then I read No More Mr. Nice Guy. And that was just like a, you know, a punch in the gut, like, I'm not your typical nice guy, you're, you're extreme nice guy, because I own my own business. I'm assertive in, in that way. But in, in one sense, I do have a business partner who is like the assertive one. You know, he— we often say like it's like good cop, bad cop whenever we go to a convention or— so he's, he's a lot more assertive. And I, and I learned from him to really not be afraid of conflict. And so I would be going at home and it's just like, you know, just being agreeable to avoid conflict, you know, any kind of shit test or competency test, I would fail big time, you know. I'm a guy who likes projects and stuff like that. So I'll start a project and then it'll dwindle off the motivation.. And so when I did start the Dead Bedroom Fix, I didn't, I didn't tell my wife about it. I just said, like, I'm going to the gym. And then she's, and you know, it was like, oh, your phase of going to the gym, you know, like, she was just—

and how cute of you.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And so there was a little bit of shit testing at the start. And, you know, I just did the right answer. And just kept doing my thing, just kept doing my thing until, you know, 4 months into it. I was getting results like a month in, you know, but 4 months into it, I told her about the Dead Bedroom Fix and, you know, the group and all this kind of stuff. And I showed her a print screen, like a screenshot of one of the guys who had lost like an incredible amount of weight, who's like super cut now, and he can fit like one, you know, one leg into his pants. And, and I said, Jess, this is the group that I'm a part of, like, this is the kind of stuff that we do. And she saw the title, Dead Bedroom Fix. And, and she goes, ouch.

Oh, yeah.

And I said, you know, that's what it was, though. That was the catalyst like that, that if we go with the definition of, you know, like sexless marriage or a dead bedroom. For me, like, that's, that's pretty much what it was. And one thing that I like hand my hat off to my wife was that she never did like, maybe once pity sex. And it was terrible. Like, it's not something that anyone ever wants you know, and so if she's just not feeling it, she's like, I'm not feeling it. And she wouldn't hand out scraps. And so I really, really respect her in that regard, because I can't imagine the, I don't know, the amount of resentment that could, that could build every single time that it feels just like duty sex on the part of the wife. And she's just doing it as a chore, you know. And so building a foundation of like masculine leadership and everything like that, when I know it's coming from my wife, I know it's authentic because she's never really done pity sex anyway.

Good.

Which is cool, which is very, very, very cool. And it's like a process for me, you know, it's— I'll go back to Mr. Nice Guy.. And then like, kind of shake my head and say, oh, you know, and go back to being more assertive. And, you know, me being more assertive, I just seem a lot more serious. And like, I'll be walking around the house and I'm concentrating on things that I got to do. And she's like, why do you ask? Why do you always have to look like an asshole though?

She wants you to loosen up a little bit.

I'm like, I'm happy.

I'm happy.

I'm good. So, but, but yeah, so the, the, the first thing that basically you said, like when I listened to the book, I listened to it 2 times in a row just to make sure that I didn't miss anything. And the big thing was like, get to the gym, like get fit, you know? And that was one thing that I was able to do easily because the psychology side of it after reading or listening to No More Mr. Nice Guy, I saw that that was going to be my mountain. Like, that was the hard part.

And you've really taken that on big time. You are— within our group, you know, everyone has their little, little personalities and things that we kind of, uh, this guy is the alpha male military guy, this guy is your former nice guy. You are known as the fitness dude because you got in really, really good shape in a relatively short period of time. And so you have some natural gifts about you that you react well when you hit the weights and the cardio and everything. Your body says, well, here we go. Do you have a past experience with in the physical world of weightlifting, sports, anything like that?

So yeah, like I grew up doing swimming, hockey, like an active family, you know, active Canadian family, football, all that kind of stuff. And then I moved to Australia as a teenager and that was just like swimming. To Brisbane and the level of athletes over in Australia, the swimming world. Yeah, you can't compare. It's insane.

So you did have a— you had a good foundation for building muscle. This wasn't about— you hadn't been sedentary your whole life.

I started lifting weights when I was in grade 11 and I noticed like, you know, my ex-girlfriend, you know, high school girlfriend or whatever, after summer vacation we had a swim meet and she goes, holy shit, you're really built now. And I was like, oh man, okay, okay. That, like, that— I was like the scrawny little guy, you know. And so that kind of pushed me to do weights. And then, you know, I come to college and then I, I come to college back in Canada. Then I really started lifting weights. And it was so funny in your, in your book when you say like, well, I used to the guys who used to say, well, I used to bench 300 pounds, and you're like, yeah, okay, loser. And like, that was me. That was me. Like, I could do 300 pounds, you know? And it's like, okay, back in the glory days. And so I'm like, I said, okay, I can't, I can't be that loser, you know? And so I started hitting the gym every single day, single day.

Wow.

And another thing too was like the nutrition side. You said like just don't stop overeating. Like, concentrate what you're putting into your body because athletic background, you know, teenager, you just don't care. Yeah. You're like chips, carbs, whatever. And so I really, I stopped drinking beer. I would, I would like drink beer like one day a week basically, which would be like one or two beers with my father-in-law just to be social, you know. And I would try to cut down on carbs. And so my kid, my 4-year-old, he's diabetic. And so we all know the stuff to buy and how carbs affects your body and all that kind of stuff. So I just hop in with him for breakfast and all that kind of stuff. And, and that really made me lose weight. And so I had like still a base of muscle. But I was doing like weight training every day. And at the end of my weight training, I would just do a sprint, 2K or 1K on the treadmill, just get the metabolism, metabolism going or whatever, just sweat. And, and yeah, so I would do, I would do the cardio side like twice a week. But I would switch up the, the routines like a lot. Every week I would do something different. If it was like high intensity stuff, high reps one week, low reps another week, resting 5 minutes between sets, no rest at all another week between sets, just like you're in the gym for, you know, when there's no rest, the gym goes by very quickly. You're in there for half an hour. And so I would do 2 muscle groups basically. And 4 exercises per muscle group. And so you're just like pounding it out and you're like, you're drenched by the end of it. But so that was a key thing too, is like making sure you're switching it up and, you know, doing a lot of core. But as everyone says in the group, it's like abs are made in the kitchen. And so losing that weight for sure, like the abs come out a lot when you do a lot of core work. But making sure what you're eating is, is really, really important. But I'm not a fitness guy. Like, I mean, I just, I think I have good genetics because he said, hey, you should start a blog. And I mean, it would just— no, it's all anecdotal. It's, you know, it's just what works for me. You know, when, when I see somebody ask a question, and, and Vance, for example, he he responds, it's like, okay, I'm— this guy's on a different level.

The, the world of, um, fitness, health, especially when it comes to putting on muscle, losing body fat, man, it's very difficult because what works for this guy has the completely different response in this guy, different result in this guy. I'm with you where I'm very sensitive to carbohydrates. And what I've learned as going on the age of 50 is that it's not so much my body takes carbs and goes crazy. It's more of a behavioral thing of eat one. Well, then 15 more is better. And then you get the blood sugar crash and then an hour later you're like, I'm a little hungry. I'm gonna eat a little something. And then I learned with my body, skip the breakfast, eat a protein-heavy lunch. And then I have to remind myself by dinner to eat again. At 6 o'clock, I better eat something. Um, just by virtue of that, that's over the period of the day, the, the caloric intake is much less than what I used to do. And voilà, you, voilà, you lose weight. Completely about calories in, calories out. At the same time, you want to give yourself a good macro breakdown that is appropriate for your level of activity. Most guys, I think, don't realize just how sedentary we are. You go to the— you go to the gym an hour, 4 days a week, is, you know, you're pretty active compared to most. But that's only 4 hours out of all those hours in the week where you know what we're doing right here, sitting at a desk all damn day.

Yeah.

And you know what's funny?

Nothing.

The bodybuilding world, that culture, has very much taken over the fitness world in general because I'm talking to 50-some-year-olds who are, I'm pounding protein shakes and I'm getting 200 grams of protein a day. And I'm like, you're getting kind of lost in the weeds there. You're not Mr. Olympia. You're not going to do any bodybuilding contest anytime soon. How about just work on being healthy and losing the 30 pounds you need to lose? Go work out and don't get caught up in the creatines and the— oh, what are some of the other things? The branched-chain amino acids. I hear a lot of those people are taking those, which scientific basis is not really there, though they do a whole hell of a lot of anything.

Oh, there's a lot of money.

The industry is full of a lot of bullshit, and it preys on guys like you and me that are like, man, I just want to look like what I look like when I was in my 20s. Well, take this pill and here you go. Testosterone boosters— roll my eyes at that. No. Um, and we could go on and on about the world of testosterone. We have a lot of guys that are on that in the group. Always surprises me. And I think, um, I'm somewhat responsible for that given that I have written and done podcasts pretty extensively on my experience. But that again is not for everyone. Some, some guys take a little bit of that and they just don't feel good, they don't look good, nothing. Their body's saying don't do this. So for those guys, don't do that. While some are like, thank goodness, this was the missing ingredient, anxiety went down, body fat melts off, etc., etc. But we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves here because we could go on and on about the fitness world. But I wanted to dig a little bit more into you, if I may. Um, you have self-admitted nice guy tendencies. So my first— my question is, where the hell did that come from? Can you pinpoint that to childhood stuff? Yeah.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, big time. Um, as I said, like, I moved to Brisbane when I was a kid.

My—

the reason why we moved to Brisbane, my dad worked for a mining company. From like, grade 5 to grade 7, my dad was basically like inspecting all the smelters around the world to make sure they're— I don't know, for safety and all this kind of stuff and for projects. And, and so he was gone like a lot. He was telling me, he would wake up like in Denmark. And he thought he was in Japan, you know, and so he was just way— and then so when he would come home for a weekend, he was in bed the whole time, like completely jet lagged. And then he had a kind of a health scare, pulmonary embolism, when we were we had a fishing trip. He had like just stopped work, come for a weekend fishing trip, 4 hours away from like any hospital. We're on the four-wheelers and, you know, he's like, hey, Mike, can you stop the four-wheeler? I got to cut down this tree that was falling across the road. Cuts the tree, falls to one knee and like on his side. And yeah, yeah, really scary stuff. And everything worked out and woman who was like camping with her husband randomly had a satellite phone. This is like in the '90s. And a helicopter came, picked him up, everything was all good. So after that point, he still had to work, you know, but my mom was like, look, I can't take care of the 3 boys at home. And with your health, like, you gotta find a position where you're not traveling as much or I'm done. Like she was, she had it. And so my dad was like, all right, sounds good. And after a bit of time he found Brisbane, the same company just had a project in the New Caledonia and Brisbane had the head office. So I was really raised a lot by my mom who had like, you know, some mental issues and, a lot of anxiety and stuff like that. So it was a lot was like, let's make sure that mom is like not going to get angry, you know? And so you had those two things of making sure that mom's not stressed out because three kids, like the sports and going back and forth and all this kind of stuff. And, and on top of that is like my dad is traveling a lot, you know, I did have, I do have two older brothers. And so there was that, that masculine a good example, but they were so busy with sports too that like sometimes I was just like running around the neighborhood because I was the youngest and my parents were just like too tired and like, ugh. And so yeah, I think the basis of those nice guy tendencies definitely came from that, my childhood and seeking validation from my mom, making sure she's all good and not mad. And, and it really started from there. And then I noticed I always only really had like, like my closest friends are always girls. You know, and so I would always friendzone. And so a lot of that really came from— well, I realize now is I didn't have that full-on anchored masculine leadership where I felt comfortable around a whole bunch of guys. Like, I had like a real anxiety of like being on a hockey team.

Interesting.

So I just did individual sports.

It's a— it's kind of a double-edged sword. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, when you're in a relationship with a man, there's this underlying kind of hierarchy. Maybe somebody, somebody here's the alpha male of the group, and somebody— and it's not me, and that makes me feel uneasy. And oh look, girls— that I know girls because I've had a pretty close relationship emotionally with my mom all these years, healthy or not. I'm comfortable in that. That's my wheelhouse. Gravitate towards the girls, man. So many guys I talk to can relate to this. Absolutely. Absent father. By— he wasn't, you know, a runaway father or whatever. He's just— by virtue of his work, I hear that more often than not. And you're left with a mom who's overly anxious, overly stressed. You're a baby boy, right?

Yep.

What's typical I hear from a lot of men is, I was baby boy and I became kind of a surrogate spouse for my mom. She kind of dumped on me. No dad was there, nobody to turn to. She was looking around and she says, my little man. Come over here and help mom with this, this, and this, and listen to me while I emote about my day. Um, did she ever emote to you about dad?

No.

Good. So she kept that—

yeah, she's good. Like, really? And they— their relationship now, like, it's, it's funny. They're, they're super close. I mean, they go fishing together. And now that my dad's retired excuse me, my dad's retired and stuff. You know, they've, they've definitely become way closer. And it was so funny, like last week, my dad is, you know, he, he's an engineer all of his life, but he grew up chopping wood. Like, he grew up as basically like a lumberjack, 12 years old with a big chainsaw in his hands. And so he comes home and he does our firewood. And my mom came with him this time. Usually he comes alone just because he's gone at 5 in the morning and he'll come back at like 10 at night or he does his thing. And I had a chance not to confront my mom, but to say like, and my dad was there and I said, I really hope you guys aren't in a dead bedroom.

Oh, really? Yeah. And did they say, what the hell is that? Or did—

and my dad was like, you know, super reserved guy, but like, you know, really funny. And, and my mom goes, no, Mike, we do it 6 times a day. And I go, well, I hope so. I hope so.

So do you get a sense over the years that, well, he's been gone so long, just the logistics of it don't allow for a very close romantic relationship, I wouldn't think?

Well, I think they're just so busy. I didn't even, I didn't even think of my, my, my parents on a romantic level like that, just because they were just so busy with swim meets and with hockey tournaments. And, you know, but when they would go like, like date nights, I think is a new concept. Like I never seen them do date nights or anything like that. Where me and my wife, we do it minimum one date night a week. And even with the newborn, like, I bring it to the in-laws, like, let's go date night. This is our time, you know. So my kids are seeing that, whereas I didn't see that when I was a kid. Like, my dad would be like, you know, we're taking Lynn on for a vacation, you know. And so they would go to like Hawaii or, or something like that, just the two of them. And that would happen like once every 10 years or something like that. And so we would go on like a family vacation skiing where they would just like kind of ship us off to the, to the, you know, instructors and the ski schools and they would do their own thing, you know. And so that's the closest I've seen of them doing like stuff as a couple. And then when we moved to Australia, that's when I saw them doing a lot more coupley things, you know, with a whole bunch of other couples. They had a really good peer group. It was other engineers. So it was like expats.. And, and then that's when I saw them doing like, you know, cooking classes and, and cool, you know, relationship stuff like that.

They put effort into it for sure.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, and that's the cool thing I saw about that side was my dad working so much. And then, you know, my mom putting that boundary and then just seeing my dad all the time. And it being cool.

That's cool. Very good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had that, I had that, yeah, you know, that nice guy foundational imprint in me though. And so with my dad being there and being like the masculine leader, like from, you know, grade 8 onwards, uh, um, it was that, that imprint was still there. And so I just kept that all of my life.

Sure. It's kind of scary slash interesting just how much that early childhood stuff imprints on us. And then later in life, what's the scary part is how much we recreate that past with our next, our subsequent relationships. So the difficult question is, you just said your mom had some issues, to use your word, some mental issues, some anxieties and so forth. I don't— did that get to a serious level? Did they get to an intervention type of level where you need— she needed to get help with it?

Actually, at my wedding.

What?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was— so she was working out, like, in order to deal— she's a nurse. And so she knew, like, she had anxieties and stuff like that. And so the way that she would deal with it was, I'm gonna work out. And so she worked out, man. Like, she was going, like, sometimes you know, twice a day, all the classes and very, very, very fit. triathlons, all that kind of stuff. And when it came time, when I got married, she had not met my wife yet.

Well, that's unusual. Like, I mean, how'd that work out? Was that on purpose?

Well, that's the thing. Since we're like conservative Christians, we're like, oh, we're not gonna let sex be a distraction. But it's like, but it's the reason why, you know, like, we got to get married, like, now, you know what I mean? It was a quick courtship. Still knew, like, we had a great time with each other. So it was a quick courtship.

It was just a matter of months from I meet you to getting married, or really? Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I had seen my wife 4 years prior, and I know, knew who she was. And I tried to pick her up, but like, she blew me off, man. And so it was like a buildup of 4 years of me asking her out. But that, that point of me asking her out, 6 months later, like I was putting a ring on her finger, basically. Not basically, like literally. And, and so my brother had flown down from Toronto after I asked her to marry me and was like, dude, what are you doing?

Fast.

Like, she's nice. She's nice. But it's like, you're, you know, you're gonna regret this, he said, because you just don't know her. And did he have a point? And I'm like, you don't know anything, you don't know anything. And, and, and, but I was really, anytime that I was dating a girl, I always was watching out, like, is this someone I want to marry? Ever since I was, you know, like 14 years old, like, is this somebody I want to marry? And I always was looking out for red flags or whatever and saying, do I want to deal with that? Or, and, you know, when Jess came along, I would see something and it's like, you know, I could deal with that. I could deal with that. And, and so yeah, we got, we got married very, very quickly. And my mom met, like, my wife or my fiancée, like, 2 weeks before we got married. Wow. And so she was so stressed out, like at the wedding, like she had cracked all of her teeth, like a lot of her teeth in the back from just like, but the clenching, you know, and so that was, that was the source of the stress. It wasn't a straw.

What was the source of the stress? Did she not like Jess? Or she was just worried that you were making a huge mistake?

Yeah, I just, just, she didn't want me to make a big mistake, or she didn't It's that unknown, that, that thing that she couldn't control, or it was just, it was just, she didn't want her son to make a mistake that, or have, you know, um, regret, have a regret in his life because a divorce is complicated and all this kind of stuff. And so, um, when she met her, uh, it kind of subsided. But just the fact that, okay, there's a wedding that added on and like going to the reception, it was only my wife's family at the reception because my mom's anxiety was so bad. Like, she's like, oh, we got a flat. You know, on the way. There was no flat, you know.

No.

And yeah, anyway, so we waited for them. They were like, they were late or what, half an hour late or whatever. And it was good. And it was an amazing reception. Everyone was dancing. My 90-year-old grandmother was dancing to Johnny Cash. She was just hilarious. It was an awesome party. And about, about 2 weeks after they left, my mom like called me and she was pretty much sobbing. And she's like, Mike, I'm really, really sorry. You know, I said, and like, she basically admitted that she had lied. And I was like, you know, Mom, I understand too. Like, must have been stressful there. And she started getting help from that point on.

Good.

Okay. You know, and so that was like, okay, she is able to talk about anxiety, talk about mental health. '90s, in the '90s, even if you're a nurse, mental health was like not a thing people spoke about.

And the whole concept of self-care, totally foreign back then. Yeah, that's, that's a relatively new thing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And the, the gym wasn't the self-care thing for her. It was like, I was hoping—

that sounds almost obsessive. Um, body image issues bring, you know, come to mind. I talked to a lot of men whose wives have eating disorders, and sometimes that morphs itself into over-exercising and that kind of stuff. So that's where my brain went immediately when you talk about your mom and then this acute anxiety episode, grinding her teeth down. My goodness. Did you ever see such severe episodes in childhood, or was your wedding just the perfect mix of everything and just set off that bomb?

It was, yeah, it was the— we always knew, like, make, make sure mom is all good, you know, and walking on eggshells. And so there was always that. But, but no, no, no panic attacks or anything like that, or hospitalizations or anything like that. You know, maybe there was that we don't know about. But from my point of view, like, everything was pretty much hunky-dory. Just make sure, make sure that, you know, Mom doesn't get angry or anything like that. And so this, this was a thing that she couldn't control, her son marrying someone that she didn't know. And it was, um, it was like, okay, mental health is going to be a topic in our family from now on.

That's unusual. And that's unusual. Sorry, kudos to her for that and for your family, because usually it's, boy, a major split in the family. Because it could be argued that that was kind of her way of sabotaging the wedding in an indirect, arguably almost narcissistic way. It's about me, it's about me, it's about my disorder. On the biggest day of my son's life ever, and forever and ever, I'm going to make this about me and I'm going to miss it because of me and my issues and so forth. I can see, boy, did your wife take that well? Did she interpret it the way I'm interpreting it now? Is it like, you know, roll her eyes like, here we go, what a way to start the marriage?

I think she just felt bad for her. Yeah, I don't think she didn't take it personally. She just felt, she just felt, she just felt bad. Yeah. Yeah, my wife's, she's like, really able to see the point of view of somebody else. And so she didn't take it personally, like, as a personal attack, you know, it was like, that sucked. But it must have sucked for her.

Now, The other side of this is we know that such severe anxiety, it's not unusual to see it passed down to kids, grandkids, and so forth. Whether that's a genetic component or whether, you know, nature, nurture, I'm not sure. But it's that— do you see in yourself anxieties that you've inherited from dear mom?

Oh yeah. Um, I always have like this, uh, that's gonna be okay. That's going to be okay, you know, but I do have like attention deficit disorder. And so I take like medications for that. Otherwise, I'll just not just like forget anything, but less present, you know, getting things done, organizational skills. I'm dyslexic as well. And so that energy level goes down. But when I do take attention deficit medication, I feel like, like the part that of me that loves is smaller, and the part of me that is patient is smaller. And so I'm super performant, you know, like I can perform well, efficient, and get things done. But when my little boy asks, like, for the thousandth time, why? I don't get into his universe as much anymore. You know, I'm like, just— it's just because. It's just because, you know. And so I feel so, like, guilty and bad. And I got to find some tools to be like that sweet, super fun dad at the same time as like taking these meds because I don't want to like lash out at the kids. Like, I still want to be like the fun dad who now has boundaries, you know.

But is there some kind of compromise in the medications? Is there some type of type B medication that's kind of a not as extreme? I don't know, I don't know that world of—

well, the, the— I, in fact, this is the type B medication, so it is less extreme, um, than the other stuff I was taking. The other— it's called Concerta, and it was just like the first time I took it, I, I said like, I can't believe this is legal. This is just— they're giving this to kids, you know? And I just couldn't— so I, I'm taking stuff that's a lot more weak. But at the same time, there is still— it's still a stimulant, you know, and so that molecule will just still— it still stimulates you and you still feel that, that rush or whatever. And working out really helps to balance that, to balance that, those, those negative side effects. And so when I come from the gym, my daughter's like, hey, Daddy, and and she wants to like play and stuff like that. I'm a lot more like, I want to get into it, like with her or with my son who, you know, who's crying and, and, you know, for something like really, really silly. I'll get down like on my knees and like look him in the eye and be like, hey, man, what's up? You know, like, you know, we can work through this, you know, and, and if I, if I don't get that Jim in, I feel like I'm just, uh, same here, a lot less patient.

It's funny, I can relate a great deal to this after I went on the testosterone regimen, which has been, shoot, almost 10 years ago now. But, um, I can distinctly remember way more patient, way more lovey-dovey, I would say, um, way more creative. That's the— that's another interesting side where I was big into photography, and I was the type of guy that would pull his car over to the side of the road because that tree and that hill over there in the distance would make a really pretty picture. Let me get on my camera and, you know, get the photo lens. That's just gone. I mean, it just like almost overnight, it's like tree shmea, and I haven't touched a camera in a long time. Just use my phone and that's about it. So it's kind of interesting. There's the mechanisms, and you take these medications, something's got to give. There's always a give and take with these things. I'm this way, thank goodness, but something else is suffering a little bit, and you got to kind of balance it out and figure out what's What's important to you? And to you, you've decided you can't really function all that well without, number one, exercise. And I think a lot of men— how old are you, by the way? I forgot to ask.

34.

Well, you're still young, but as you get in the 40-plus, boy, all those little 'I have to sleep so many hours,' 'I have to exercise so many,' 'I cannot eat,' those just become so much more important. Just— that's right, just for your sanity, just for your mental— for your mental health, your physical health, and everything else. And then some of us need a little extra something, Ritalin, Adderall, whatever it may be. Testosterone take you the other way, but there's always a give and take. There's a give and take, isn't there, even for going to the gym? It's less time with the kids, less time with the wife. There's always a sacrifice. So very interesting. So things have improved. How long the process has it been from reading the book to now?

5 months.

That's all?

Yeah.

Wow. You got in this good of a shape in 5 months?

Yeah, it's crazy.

That is great. Okay, so—

and like, the cool— oh, sorry, go ahead.

This is relatively new.

Yes.

This isn't like I can go to my wife and she just— go to your wife and she just finally remembers years ago when you started going through the change. And so she's got to still be in that little bit of anxiety around these changes mindset, I would think. I don't want to put words in her mouth, but if my husband suddenly loses so much weight and gets in such great shape and his mindset and his demeanor has changed in a short 5 months, does her brain immediately go to, uh-oh, something's up here?

Um, that's a good question. She's like a really smart— she's a really smart girl. She's a college prof. Okay. And like, you'll In terms of subcommunication, I'll say something. And then she says what I'm thinking. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, yeah, she'll answer the question of my subcommunication, basically.

Is she in psychology?

No, no, she's in literature.

She missed her calling, it sounds like. Sounds like she's— yeah, she's really adept at this seeing below the surface type of thing.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so this is why, a big reason why she would just get frustrated at all my little like fads, because she's like, you know, I could just see it coming before I know you, you know. But her reaction was the first time she really noticed my body changing was like, I really got to get to the gym, I guess.

There you go. Good, good, good.

And I'm like, damn straight, you got to get to the gym. And, and, and that kind of morphed in. And she's not somebody who, like, goes to the gym, but, you know, she's— she has to. She doesn't take enjoyment of working out. And so I'm in the process of finishing the home gym, like, with a squat rack and all that kind of stuff, because we used to work out together after we lost our girl. And that's what actually got us, like, really, really close and our intimacy levels were like going through the roof and I'm like, okay, I gotta finish this gym at home, you know, because what we were using was just, you know, makeshift whatever. But now with the squat rack, so I finished, I'm finishing the basement. And so she's like, can you finish the basement so we can, I could start working out, you know? And I'm like, I'm sure you, if you really wanted to, you could work out. But I'm finishing it and I will, we'll go from there. But I think with me, you know, she would like make a compliment and she doesn't hand out compliments like for nothing, you know, she would say like, geez, baby, you're looking really good. And Mr. Nice Guy, I'm like, oh, thank you, warmth. And, and, but she was— she's not somebody who shows affection a lot. Like, that's just how she grew up. Super close with her dad and her mom. They're still together since like 50 years. But like, not lovey-dovey people.

Yeah.

And so at home, she wouldn't come and like grab me by the butt or anything like that, or, or come and like feel my arms or whatever. But I can tell you one thing, when we go to the beach, she is on me like glue.

She sees the prize. She has to let all the other ladies know, um, don't, don't even think—

that's it.

Don't even think about it.

And so she would come up to me and hug me.

Yeah, yeah, very good. Well, that's awesome. Well, it sounds like all wine and roses, but it's only been 5 months, which means there's still some stuff you got to work on, right? So what—

like I said, the nice guy stuff, the anxieties.

So some of the deficiencies, what have you seen in during this process? Where have you had hiccups.

I remember after 2 months, the dead bedroom, me doing all the changes. I go home for lunch. Usually I wasn't going home for lunch. I'm like, gym, gym, gym, gym. One day I go home for lunch and she's like, come into the shower with me. And I was like, oh shit. Oh, shit, this shit works. And like, the baby was there too. Like, she had like mom mode, but she's like, you know, she, she had her mission. And I was like, are you sure? You know, because I'm good. And she's like, come into the shower. And because of that, and because it happened at lunch, after that, I was like, going home at lunch. I thought I was going to the gym at 4 o'clock. You know, instead of at 12. And then, and then I'm like, you know, I'd be— I would go into this, I'd be like, hey, why don't you join me in the shower? She's like, no, I'm good.

Yes.

And like getting rejected and all that. So it's like when she gave, you know, you know, an inch, I tried to take a mile.

And we've seen that a lot in the group. Where men will say, "Eureka!" And then they go online to Amazon and buy sex toys, and they try to take it up to level 97. They just skipped, you know, 2 through 96. So that's not— but what it does show is just how desperate, lacking in the physical department you were, and how much that has an impact on a guy. You know, a lot of women don't quite realize how much of a need that is, and how we kind of go off the rocker if we don't, you know, we go off the rails if we don't get it, so to speak. And then when we do, oh yeah, so it takes everything in our power to remain stoic. And that was great, babe. You know, the old archetype of James Bond. James Bond would give her a smooch and say, see you tonight, gotta go back to work, and he'll never mention what happened. He'll never said, "Man, I really had a great time in the shower." As soon as he starts going that direction, the women are like, "Oh God, here we go, needy little boy." And, um, you know, I, I've talked to some men who have been in very unexpected hypersexual situations with their wife, and they will anxiety themselves right out of it. They will question, "Are you sure? This is very unusual. Do you really want to do this?" We don't have to do this. Don't feel like you need to do this, sweetheart. And eventually the wife's like, you know, just forget it. It's like, then they come to me and say, yep, you just talked yourself right on out of a really good situation. And part of the attractive package is to act like a guy who acts like, yeah, no big deal. This is just a walk in the park for me. Could happen tomorrow with that gal and that gal. Sounds terrible to say. But that's under the surface is what the, the image that you're projecting. Like when you go to the beach, yep, take your shirt off, you're in a very indirect way saying, I could probably get any one of these chicks if I wanted to. And she knows that. No words exchanged, don't even have to look her direction, and she comes right over to you and puts the arm around her. Um, you just throw that all in the trash when you act a little too desperate. Do you, do you have still in your I don't know if psyche is the right word. In your being, is there still very much a woohoo sex vibe coming from you when you get it? When you get it, you're pumping your fist like, yeah, it's— I'm getting lucky. I'm getting, quote, lucky tonight.

Um, I feel like I'm a man on him. Like, when I know it's Like, for example, a few other times before, it's like, okay, we need it. The baby is always there, like our third one. And so I would just like say, okay, Jess, date night, bringing the baby and the kids to your parents. We are coming home. And it was just being more assertive than anything, but Um, but that is your—

that is your—

there's definitely—

that's your code for we are going to have sex tonight, sweetheart. You're kind of taking charge and being assertive with that. Where it gets weird is if she sees that and says, just so you know, it's not happening tonight. I know you want to, I know no kids, yada yada, but I— my stomach feels— it's just, it's not happening. That's where a lot of guys are get on the groups and tap type away and say, guys, the everything, the wheels were in motion, the planets were aligned, everything was perfect. And she said no. When your reaction should have been, eh, eh, all right, cool. Wanna play board games, watch a movie, go out dancing. What do you wanna do? Which ironically increases your chances of getting lucky so much more than if you start pouting. And, and as you know, women can see that a mile away. They can smell that pouty neediness. Why? What's wrong? When she knows exactly what's wrong. What's wrong? Why are you acting that way? I'm not acting any way. Yes, you are. What is it? Nothing. And then he can't hold it anymore. It's just that, you know, no kids, and I just expected we would— Oh, here we go. So what I have found, it just takes time. And it just takes, you know, put a little rubber band on your wrist, and when you feel yourself getting needy, snap it, whatever that rubber band may be for you. You need something, you need something that says, stop it, stop it, stop it. Um, you have a built-in escape with the gym. I think that's perfect. I'm feeling those feelings, it's going to get a quick workout in. Didn't you work out this morning? Yeah, but I'm just going to do some cardio. Yeah, something like that. I'm going to shoot some baskets with the guys. I don't know, whatever it may be. Um, a lot of men do not have that, so they just bottle all that in. Has— it sounds like you have a very, for lack of a better term, rational relationship. Communicative, talking it through. She sees through your bullshit right away and goes right under the surface. So, which is wonderful. My wife and I are very similar. So that means, is she the type to say, I see what you're doing here, you're wanting sex, and that's cool? I see what you're doing here, you're wanting sex, that's not cool? Or is she kind of playing the coy?

She's like, I get it. We got it. We need to do it. Like, we're married. And it's not on a pity side. It's not like— it's not like she's doing— she's like, she's not looking at me saying, I just want to do this for him. She's more like, it's only normal. This is what normal—

the healthy thing to do is to do, you know, and to bond as a couple. And this is one way to do it. This is the major way to do it. So obviously we're going to do it. And in her mind, it's also churning, look at the guy, he's putting effort into himself, he's putting an effort into us, and so forth. And yeah, I'm a little turned on. I'm not all the way there, but I'm willing to give it a shot to see if I can get all the way there with And, and sorry, 3 months in, she, she like wrote me a message or whatever.

And she's like saying that like, she wants to be my lover. And I was like, oh shit, okay, that's, that's cool. But you know, getting out of mom mode, that is a serious— that's easy, very easy to say. But that has been the biggest obstacle as well. So there's that nice guy, nice guy rejected, is rejected because mom mode. And so what does nice guy do? He tries to find every resource in the world on how to get out of mom mode. And so podcasts and here, Jess, here's the get on the self-improvement train and here we can try this. And then she's just like, every time I was opening my mouth, it feels like in the past month, She's like, oh, how am I— how am I—

tell me how I'm deficient now as a wife. Go on. Just love hearing this. What, I need to go to the gym now 4 days a week instead of 2? Wonderful. I need— I need to have sex with you more.

Yeah, so that— I really got that vibe from her in the past few weeks, and it's just not cool. And there's that— excuse me— that neediness side of me that's like, I'm just gonna keep shoving this info down her throat. And so I'm like, okay, I'm backing off, concentrating just on myself now, and, and, uh, I'll do what I got to do to, to just work on me.

You tapped into, like, the rubber band where she said, is this yet again another one of your little fad things that you do that you get— is that, that's something from your past where you got really get into something and then drop it, get into something, drop it? And that's, which is part and parcel, as you know, with the ADD. It's very, very common. It's also extremely common, I have noticed, with guys that are pretty successful in life. Um, when they get into something, oh boy, do they get into something. And why is that so common with successful guys? Because those guys tend to put blinders on and then focus on the mission. And then if that mission is financially rewarding, oh boy, do they get rewarded because they just go, go, go, go, go.

Yeah.

Um, but not necessarily the best thing for relationships when you put blinders. Kids? What kids? Wife? What wife? Friends? What friends? Not so good. Um, so she has a point with, is this yet again another one of your things? Have you ever had a thing like this last this long? An interest, a hobby?

Well, I took up hunting, and so that, that's something that I took up in the last 4 years. So I'm still like hard into that. And so, but all the other stuff, like, you know, really into CrossFit, and then really into this, and then, you know, just immersing myself and with as much knowledge as I can. And so, yeah, is it just countless things, you know? And, and so she's like, okay, here we go, here we go. But this, this, you know, the whole Dead Bedroom, the DSO world, this is pretty much the longest I've gone in terms of anything.

So I think part of that is probably the group, getting involved and talking to the guys on a regular basis. If you were on your own, It's very easy to be like, oh, look at that shiny object over there. Oh, that's the next thing I'm interested in. And then a year goes by and you're like, crap, I just gained 20 pounds. Where'd that come from? When you got guys in these groups— totally, as you've seen— are active 24/7. And then on top of that, we have the meetings where we meet 3 or 4 days a week live on Zoom and all talk to each other. So there's a lot of accountability. There's a lot of people saying, you effed up, dude, or hey, keep going. And in your case, holy crap, dude, your level of fitness is next level. I wish I was you. That's gotta just light a fire under your butt. You're like, well, now I have 1,000 guys I have to keep impressing. They're— if they're gonna— they're not gonna see me get fat. I gotta—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Best buddies out there that I can't let down. That's huge. Um, so I'm just curious, is your wife one to have passions as well? Or she way more even keel than you?

Way more even keeled.

And you know what I hear again and again and again? It's that, you know, the yin and yang, the polar opposites attract. And the thing I hear a lot is my wife's the more grounded— she, you know, for a lot of men, they kind of look at it at a different angle and say, I kind of wish my wife had more passions and more oomph and more go about something. She's just more of— she has the kids, she goes to work, she likes to cook, and that's about it.

Yep.

And, and every time I really get into something, she just kind of rolls her eyes like, here's the next thing that he gets into. And it just kind of dings her respect for me a little bit until— and boy, she'll test the shit out of you to make sure that it's something for real and that it's going to stick and that it's not going to hurt her and the kids and the family.

That's exactly right. That's that trust level.

Safe. That trust level. If it's— I'm really getting into gambling. Oh shit, here we go, we're gonna lose the house. Or like, uh, Scott, like one of the guys in our group, uh, one of the coaches, that he was big into race car driving for a while.

Exactly right.

One wrong turn, you're done for.

Yeah. And, and his wife said would get pissed off because people would be like, whoa, what do you do since he's into this? And she's like, Nothing.

She's like, I'm Mrs. Provider. I'm working in the clinic, making a lot of money, paying the bills. That's what I'm doing while he's Mr. Racecar Driver. Woohoo.

Yeah.

So yeah, I can, I can see their point of view, the women, for sure. But if they have a guy that they're confident in and they trust and they realize he's campaigned and sold his idea or whatever it is enough to where she feels, all right, cool, let's just let him do his thing. And then supports him, that's where he really elevates. Because, you know, you talked about when she says, "You're really looking good today," and you're like, "I'm Mr. Nice Guy and I feel so woo-hoo." That's not a Mr. Nice Guy thing. I think it's a human being thing. It's just that it's so damn rare for us guys. Women hear it all day, every day. "That blouse is so cute." "Your hair looks so good today." "You're the best mom in the world." All she has to do is go Facebook, click, click, and 500 likes and everything. And Ah, we don't have that. So when we get little nuggets of it, of course you're going to feel good. Even the most alpha male tough guy in the world, when he walks by and the woman says, you look really handsome today, he's walking with a lot more pep in his step that day. I don't think there's anything needy or unusual about that in any way, shape, or form. And I wish women— more women realize just what a simple job it is to be a good wife. Yeah, just dabble those little things in there and we will will murder for you. If you got a good man, he will do anything and everything to keep you around and keep you happy, for sure. So, for sure. So you have some nice guy stuff, some neediness stuff still creeping in there. It's still relatively early. 5 months is nothing. I mean, for guys listening to this or watching this video, 5 months— no, we've got guys on there been at this for years and they're still working at it, and their patience levels are running thin. And, um, I, you know, I'm with you on the patience thing. I don't know if I— here's a good question for you. You're doing this 5 months into it and you are still where you were 5 months ago as far as relationship with your wife is concerned. What do you do? 1 year later, there's no changes and you are objectively the better looking, the better acting, the more loving, the more attentive, the more this, the more that. More independent. As far as you're concerned, you're just checking all the boxes. And wife says, hey, I'm kind of more concerned with kids and job. Pat you on the head and say good job. But as far as intimacy and closeness is concerned, it's not going to improve any. Have you thought about that?

We spoke about it, and I was— and I said, because you said, like it said in the book, yeah, you said in the book, this is what's going to happen. She's going to say What if I don't do this? What if I don't want to go to the gym? Or what if I just don't want to, like, be close to you anymore? And I said, and it was really, really hard. And I said, because she's my, you know, she's just like, she's your soulmate. Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't see anything that I ever had to say because they I know it's not going to get there because I just know it, but I still needed to say it. And I was like, I want to share my life with somebody who wants to have fun and who finds me fun. And we do adventures and it's a good example for our kids.

Bingo.

And, uh, if, and, and, you know, That's the example that I want to lead. I want to have fun with my spouse. I don't want to have to be working.

Perfect.

All that. And then that's it.

Yeah, that's the healthy version of the talk, isn't it? That's another one. That's another way.

And it happened naturally. It wasn't like, hey babe, I need to talk to you.

It wasn't malicious. It wasn't, I'm gonna be mean, listen here, woman. No, it was just like, I gotta be honest with you, I love you to death, but I don't know. If you're telling me that this ain't gonna happen, I don't know. I hate to say it, but you put a stake in the ground. So test passed, right? That's the ultimate test. The ultimate test.

And that, that was actually— sorry to interrupt again, but that was the, the next day she said like, I'm in, I want to be your lover.

There you go.

Yeah.

And the irony of all ironies is if she had said, oh yeah, or what? Which is basically what she did. Oh yeah, or what? And you had said, I'll— I had— I made vows. I'll love you no matter what. I'm here to stick with you no matter what. I love you to the end of time. Even if you became 1,000 pounds, I'm still here, sweetheart. She would say yay and give you a hug, and then the next day she'd be like, and then her chances of running off and finding Mr. Right just went up exponentially because everything in her hindbrain would say, I don't know about this guy. So you passed the test big time. Hey, you want to jump on the awesome Michael train? Now's the time. And she jumped on. So awesome. So any guys listening?

It was cool.

Yeah.

And it felt good because with the whole nice guy stuff and the competency test or shit test or whatever, I felt like it was like her saying, please go against me on this.

Yes, isn't that funny? And that it totally goes against the way we, we think of things in our rational, quote, male brain. Um, it's something that I preach to a lot of men, and it's very disturbing to some men, and it really sets a lot of men off, is sometimes you have to put, uh, boundaries in place for the woman in terms of Hey, I'm going out with the girls tonight for the third night in a row. What do you think about that? In essence, what she's saying is, I'm kind of tiptoeing towards not so good behavior. Can you please just kind of slap me on the wrist and tell me bad girl? Yeah, a lot of men are like, I'm not gonna tell her that. She's an adult. Yeah, have fun, enjoy yourself. Who am I to stop you from having fun? I'll have fun with my friends too down the line at some point. And then how does she internalize that? He doesn't care.

Yeah.

And that's huge. He's just going to let me— I tried to— I put up the red flags and said, dude, I'm about to do something I'm not so sure about. Let me in a roundabout way ask you for permission, see what you think about it. And you have every right to say 3 nights in a row is a little much, to be honest with you. I think maybe you should stay home with your husband and kids, and maybe we should— maybe you and I should go out instead. She'll pout, and the next day, you're right, let's go out. You saw, you saw a version of that, which is that, hey, tell me to jump on board or you're going to leave. Please just tell me that so I can respect you. And you're like, here you go. And she's like, yes, I got a real man. Awesome. Good.

That's right, that's right. And, um, it's, it's, uh, like, you know, Psych 101, uh, if my man can't stand up to me Then what kind of man is he going to stand up to?

Exactly, exactly. Little old me. Yeah. As Esther Perel said, and how I put in the book in the latest edition, um, women's biggest fear is that they mistakenly hooked up, partnered with a guy who really under the surface is just a scared little boy. That's their biggest fear. And to make sure that that's not the case, they will do those little tests again. And again, when you least expect it, unfortunately, also when you're at your weakest. That's the shitty part of it. But they recognize he's down for the count. Let me do one more kick to the ribs and see how he takes it. Um, yeah, a lot of men do not take that well. This relationship game is not easy, and, um, not all of us at any point in our life are cut out for it. It takes some skills, and, and you're learning and 5 months. You see this improvement in 5 months, can you imagine this time next year?

Wow, it's gonna be fun, especially with the baby being older.

Yes, so that stress will be alleviated a little bit, turn down the stress knob a little bit. That's gonna be awesome. That's gonna be—

yeah.

What will your wife think of this talk? I assume you will show this to her or let her listen to it.

Um, yeah, uh, she asked me, she's like, so where, where can I listen to this? Yeah, I think she's gonna— I think it's just as black and white as it is. She's— she'll just be like, yeah, that's, that's what it is. But there's, you know, you know, privacy stuff and all that kind of stuff. So I wouldn't be sharing it on my wall or anything, or like on my personal Facebook page or anything like that. But But she sees the changes that are going in my life, and, and, and so she supports it because it's building our family up, you know. And, and one thing that I was talking to Austin, one of the coaches, and he said, like, if there is tension about being in this group, you can always just say, how the changes that I've made, are they going to help our marriage or not going to help our marriage in the long run? And it's always, well, it's going to help our marriage. Okay, well, let me do it. Let me, like, you know, not let me do it. Well, I'm going to do this. And are you on board?. And it's just as easy as that. And so, you know, my wife might take it personally, this video. I could see her taking it personally and then it would be like a cool-off, you know, day or two and saying like, okay, I know there's like a lot of guys out there who are in the same position and, you know, she can see through bullshit. And so she can see like the other the other points of view, you know, and so, and because there are people in marriage situations that I'm friends with that I say like, man, how do you get it to that place, you know, and the whole COVID situation we saw here in Quebec, separation after separation, and that was another big thing too. Of me getting on this dead bedroom fix thing too. It's like, okay, in my mind it's like the intimacy goes, then your roommates, then you're not living together anymore. And like, that's just how it, how it goes for me. So I saw us like not being as intimate because the baby was there and the cesarean section. And I'm like, okay, I'm doing everything I can so we can be more, have more intimacy. And that turned into, I'm doing everything I can to make me the best guy that I can be, a husband, a father, or just my own self. And so when I, when I saw the people like getting divorced and close friends of mine, my wife saw that, like that anxiety in me. And so she saw the the reasons for all these changes as well. Because we would always see it like we kind of make a joke out of it is like, oh, so-and-so got divorced, we're gonna start seeing him in the gym. And then before you know it, he's looking buff, and he's looking good. And so I said, honey, I'm getting taken care of this before anything bad happens. And so she's, she's on board with it. And, and, you know, being in the frat, sharing, uh, your— not like just your successes, but like your hard stuff that you're going through. Um, it's like a church group, you know. I actually, I sometimes feel like you'd be more honest with people in the frat because there's a lot less judge— you know, judgmental. Uh, um, and I wish it wasn't like that, but, um, but that, that kind of building up and You could look through pretty much any post and it's like, okay, this is what you got to do not to change your wife. It's like, this is what you got to do to change yourself. And that's cool. And that's what I love about the frat. It's— you're not— you can't control anyone else. You know, it's really what can you do to yourself? And these are the actions that you got to take. And if nothing changes, well, then there you go.

I think that's the perfect ending.

Yeah.

Michael, thank you so much, brother. I appreciate it. And anything you want to promote while we're on here?

Nothing. Do you just—

nothing?

Just the DSO universe.

It's an awesome DSO fraternity.

Yeah, it's— I love it.

Yeah, got it. Thank you so much, guys. Check it out, dsofraternity.com. And before I forget, are you going to join us in Texas?

I don't think— no, no, we cannot, but I would love to.

Yeah, well, maybe on the next one. There'll be more after this one for sure. All right, brother, you have a good one.

Take care.