Interview with "Ray" - Reader and DSO Fraternity Member

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. Alright, what you're about to hear is my conversation with Ray. Ray is a DSO fraternity member, longtime listener, reader, all that fun stuff. And Ray posted on our Dad Starting Over fraternity group, private discussion group online, his story, and he shared some details of what he's going through with his wife. And it wasn't pretty. And so I said, I think your story is a perfect amalgamation of a lot of different stories that we hear, and I think it'd be really great for our listeners to hear in the Dad Starting Over world. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Ray. So Ray, tell us first how you found me in the DSO world.

Yeah, sure. So like many others, in the fraternity, I was scrolling through Facebook one night, laying in bed with my wife, wondering why, you know, I wasn't getting the action I wanted. And sure enough, floats by the ad for The Dead Bedroom Fix. Clicked on it and actually didn't get the physical book, got the Audible edition and spent the next day at work listening to it twice. Um, because it just resonated so much. So that's pretty much it, man.

And it's a relatively short book, right? I'd like to say that was by design, you know, because guys, I've learned over the years, have— the attention spans just aren't there. They're not going to read somebody pontificating for 500 pages about stuff. They just get to the damn point, dude. And that's what people told me is, I love the fact that you wrote this for men and you just got to the damn point. And I said, well, I didn't really That's just how I write, I guess. I don't like to go on and on about stuff, and the audio comes in like at 3 and a half hours or something like that. So yeah, you're right, a couple afternoons of driving, you know, to and from work, and you're good.

Absolutely.

Cover the thing. And, uh, very commonly I hear from guys saying listen to it a few times, and they keep coming back and saying had little aha moments in there. So, well, thank you for that. I appreciate it, buddy.

For sure.

And, um, how long ago was that?

That was 2 years ago. I want to say that was December of 2021. So I'm almost 2 full years.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Yeah.

And the reason I, I found you was because you joined our member group called the DSO Fraternity. And how long ago did you join that?

That was March of '21.

Okay. So you've been there for a while.

Yeah, yeah, I've been here for just a little bit. Yes, sir. Wow.

Very cool. Well, what do you think of the group so far?

Oh, you know, I love it. It's, it's a, it's a wealth of knowledge. And I mean, it's nice to have a group of guys that have, you know, similar experiences and such. I mean, we have a tendency when they're in the midst, you know, we're in the midst of our own storm, and it seems extremely isolating. Yeah, you know, we know that the rest of the world is going on, but it's like, you know, it's nice to have a place to go to chat with like-minded guys.

So yeah, I've often said in my little journey of the DSO stuff, that it was very early on when a therapist that I was talking to, a lady, said, you need to talk to this other guy who's going through a similar thing. And then when I talked to him, he opened my eyes to, do you realize that there's this internet community of like millions of guys all going through the same shit? They talk online in forums and this thing called Reddit, which I hadn't heard about. And there was another forum called Talk About Marriage and all this other stuff. So I got on there That kind of opened my eyes to, oh, holy shit, this is really pretty damn common. So it's funny how all of us men just right away go, oh, I'm so alone in this. And obviously nobody else is going through this. You'd be surprised. For any guys listening to this that are thinking that, even in your immediate social group, your friends, your family, the crap that you're going through, whether it's the infidelity thing or the dead bedroom thing, somebody's going through it. Trust me, it's— absolutely agree, it is way more common than you think. So welcome to the group. Even hell, I say welcome, you're a veteran of the group, you've been there for a while. And, um, so that's great. But I didn't just randomly pick you out of nowhere to chat with you. You posted something on the group. And for those that don't know, the, the DSO fraternity members group, we have an online discussion forum, groups that are private that are very, very active. And then we also have live Zoom meetings that we do 3 or 4 of those every single week, and we record them all and you can listen to them during your commutes. And we have a members-only podcast. You can read and listen to all my books, all kinds of cool benefits there. And coaching is heavily discounted for members. Well, Ray here posted, um, some stuff going on with his wife, and, uh, it got pretty popular. The one post I'm thinking of where you shared a conversation that you and the wife had, and, um, a lot of people replied, and a lot of people were kind of wide-eyed like, oh, holy shit, this isn't good. And you got all kinds of feedback. And feedback from me was, you know, your situation is kind of a perfect storm of several other situations that we've heard all mixed together.

Oh yeah.

And I say, this would be a good dude to talk to and let's do it for the podcast. So here we are. Now, here's the struggle with these chats. And this is what I say to all the guys, right, is that we got roughly an hour or so. And but we got a lot of ground to cover in an hour, as much as, as much as we can. So try to find the perfect place to start with, I guess, would be how did you and the wife meet?

So I'm a— first thing I realized, I'm a bag of clichés. There's not much originality here. I was actually married previously. My ex-wife, we were married for 8 years, and she cheated on me with an ex-boyfriend from high school and a guy that she worked with.

Oh boy.

Um, so we split up. She actually left Valentine's Day of 2013, and I fought for custody of my daughter, which I won, and didn't take the time to properly heal from that first marriage and met my current wife on a dating app. And we were dating the beginning of June that same year.

Um, so what's the time span there between divorce and new girlfriend?

4 months. Yeah, yeah, 4 months. And then we were married October of 2014, so again, didn't take any time at all.

So what was the time span between you just started dating to getting hitched? That was 10 months. Okay, yeah, relatively quick then, give or take.

Yeah.

So big question then is, what was the hurry? Were you, uh, looking back in hindsight being what it is, you can, you can see this more clearly now than you could back then. Were you just, were you just very emotional, very lonely at the time, just looking to stop the pain, so to speak, and nothing better than to do that with, and with another woman?

And you know, that's absolutely right. And you, you speak a lot about this where it's like, you know, the new woman has a tendency to, you know, validate the hell out of you and it feels good after feeling so low.

Oh sure.

So you tend to latch on to that. And she's a good woman. I mean, she's got her faults. Of course we all do. But in the immediate, that's what it was.

Yeah, sure.

Felt great.

Well, right away when somebody tells me first relationship went down the toilet spectacularly with the infidelity and stuff, and sounds like multiple, and you divorce, and it sounds like a child custody thing, which you won, which, by the way, points to me like, oh, shit, she must have had some stuff going on because that's highly unusual. And so she's, she's got her whole, she's got her whole host of problems over there, wife number one. So set her aside for now. Anytime I hear that though, I say, uh-oh, what's coming? What's coming around the bend with woman number two? Any similarities you see there between, again, hindsight being what it is, do you see similarities between wife one and wife two?

Uh, inability to cope with, uh, even minor difficulties in life is a big one.

Yeah, and as you have come to learn by being in the group, holy shit, is that common, right?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Stress is a big thing to some of these women, and it's, you know, yeah, it's crazy.

Uh, the inability to cope, something that you learn, something that, uh, you watch mom and dad do when you grow up. Um, you know, you got a good foundation at home and you watch mom and dad hash things out, and you know, somebody dies, somebody gets sick, you watch the mom and dad team up together and we'll tackle this thing together, let's keep cool heads. And the dad's Mr. Stoic Rock, and the mom stays as calm and keeps the family functioning. She's the logistical manager. You know, that's the ideal. But I'm gonna bet that your wife number 2, probably wife number 1 as well, didn't ever experience that ideal, did they?

Uh, no, no, neither one of them. Uh, first wife, her dad walked out. I don't think she ever met her dad. Well, actually, let me scratch that. We met her dad for the first time when she was 24. I was with her for that. And my current wife, uh, she met her dad one time, and she was actually raised by her great-grandparents, so didn't have a great relationship with her mother either.

Well, that's unfortunate. And, um, you know, the, the grand epiphany in all this, and it's something that I've come to realize over the years as well, is, is, um, it ain't her fault. It is what it is. Um, she got dealt a shitty hand, and, uh, but at the same time, it's not really your responsibility to be Mr. Fixer and Mr., you know, Knight in Shining Armor there to save the damsel in distress. But it seems like you're 2 for 2 here. Yeah, you're kind of fitting that role, and you have a tendency to find the ones that, uh, oh boy, do I have a smorgasbord of issues, and you just kind of you know, your head pokes up like a prairie dog saying, what's that, issues? Hey, I'm your man for you. And away you go, pretty quickly too, on top of that. So, sir, but now you're experiencing what a lot of guys experience in your shoes, which is, um, this stuff kind of snowballs over time, and sometimes it can get pretty scary, and sometimes it can get pretty damn nasty. And worst case is You know, uh, your life is in shambles because somebody, basically somebody being your spouse, didn't, uh, deal with some underlying issues that just snowball over the decades. And sometimes it just blows up in your face and you're less like, yeah, saw this coming. And I think you're seeing a little bit of that now. I say a little bit upon hearing your story. I think a lot of guys will say, dude, but, um, So where to start with the issues? When did you start noticing wife had issues with anxiety and possibly depression?

Sure. So, man, almost right out of the gate, she'd mentioned that some previous exes and this, that, and the other had done her wrong in regards to like other women, you know, showing other women, you know, affection and attention and She, uh, I mean, she was, she was open and honest. I mean, she told me, you know, I've got the extremely low self-esteem, I think very lowly of myself. Um, so she didn't try to hide that. Um, but it was, it was pretty early on in the relationship.

So she was, she did what a lot of women in, in her shoes do, which is, um, do you know what you're getting into, dude? Um, are you sure you're up for this task? Because it ain't gonna be easy. Sometimes they just bluntly say it like that. And, uh, but for a lot of guys that are, you know, there's a knight in shining armor, they say it's going to take a lot more than that to scare me away. I love you to death. I'm devoted to you. I'm here to do whatever it takes to make us work. Which in the early— in that honeymoon phase, in the early stage, you know, you pat yourself on the back and say, I'm a good dude, you know, I feel so amazing right now. But then over the years, those feelings just naturally kind of dissipate, and you're left though with the giant elephant in the room, which is, oh shit, she's got issues. And did those issues snowball over the years? They went from, I have very low self-esteem and I got problems, I have a history of bad history with men, etc. In, let me, 5 years— how long you guys been together?

Uh, we have been together, uh, 9 years now.

Okay, so let's say 5 years into it, you're seeing what exactly?

Uh, so we would see— I'd see, um, the depression really peek its head out. Um, that, that was the main thing. She'd have bouts of depression that would last weeks or even up into a month. And then, uh, she went to the doctor for that and was prescribed SSRIs. And she's horrible with medication compliance, so she'd take it 2 days and then miss a week. And then, you know, so of course it never worked, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, this all culminated in 2018 I knew she was feeling down and I got a phone call from her at work saying that she was having feelings like she wanted to hurt herself and she was going to the hospital to have herself admitted. So she did that and she was inpatient for 5 days, give or take.

Wow, that's pretty serious.

Yeah, absolutely. So every day she was down there, I mean, I was there every evening for visiting hours, just letting her know, you know, hey, I'm gonna, still be the— I'm the constant here. So I mean, um, they had given her— they told her when she, when she was released that she needed to make contact with a therapist. And we did— to her credit, she did look locally, um, but everything around here within the immediate 30 miles or so was more geared towards substance abuse, and she doesn't have a substance abuse issue. So she was— they were, they were kind of, you know, if you don't have a substance abuse problem, it's going to cost a lot of money to come see anybody. So that kind of just fell to the wayside.

I see. So, but looking back to— this was 2018, so 4 or 5 years ago now. Um, yeah. Do you kind of kick yourself of, I should have been more of a, you know, holding her feet to the fire, so to speak, and say, no, no, you're gonna go, we're, you know, I already made the appointment for you, it's next Wednesday, 8 AM, you're going, that kind of energy? Or was she— it was just too much, you just kind of gave up the fight?

And no, to be honest, I mean, I absolutely kick myself. I feel like had I done that, I mean, perhaps it could have avoided, you know, a lot of the issues that we're currently experiencing.

But at the same time, she's a big girl. Yeah, she take care of herself, right? Um, you know, that's, that, that's a difficult line, the balancing act of, um, I don't want to be this— I'm basically running this woman's life for her. She needs to step up to the plate and take care of herself at some point. But that initial phase, I think, yeah, you got to kind of do a lot of the hand-holding and go, I'm your partner here. My partner's in need and he or she's got some problems. I'm going to need to step up and make sure, you know, same thing if you found out they had some kind of disease or something and they're not making their appointments for their chemotherapy or whatever, you're like, no, we're going, come on, get up, let's go pick them up, throw them in the car and say, we're going. You're not— I'm not letting you give up that soon. So, um, So the problems continue to snowball. And where you— I'm jumping ahead, I know, way ahead in the timeline, but where, where I connected with you via that message you posted was you had a very, what we call like an acutely bad moment where she noticed that you— if I'm remembering right, correct me if I'm wrong— you were on the— you were on the TikTok app or website or whatever. And, uh, I've been on the app myself. I'm— look for Dad Starting Over on TikTok. I'm on there now quite a bit. And, um, it's funny, I get more views on that thing than anything else combined.

I don't know, it's a popular format, man.

I would say so. Well, apparently TikTok knows what I like because if I had to remove the app because it's, it's frankly addictive, right? 30 minutes goes by in like 2 seconds.

It definitely does.

And TikTok says, oh, I see that you're a dude that likes females, here you go. And it's just jiggly girl in bikini after jiggly girl in bikini. I'm just like, wow, holy shit. And then, um, and guitars, you know, guitars and women, guitars and women, and sports. That's what mine is. And so, um, yours probably much the same. You see a couple of jiggly women in bikinis and you click the old like on there saying, huh, you know, you're hot, click.

And I remember doing that, you know, because I mean, to be fair, like most of my, uh TikTok stream is, is Jim stuff because, you know, I've, I started reading that bedroom. Yeah, that was the big thing that I ran with was, was Jim. And a lot of the stuff I look at is that. And then like these few errant videos floated around. I don't even remember clicking like on these things.

Well, but, but somehow your spouse got a hold of your TikTok. I don't know if she went snooping on your phone or if you share an account or how that worked.

Uh, she, uh So she, she snooped and it was under the premise of, oh, well, your birthday's coming up. So I was looking to see if you would show interest in anything that I might be able to get you. And I found these. Okay.

So in other words, her low self-esteem kicked in. This is probably not the first time she snooped on your phone. No, no. She's like, I know he's doing something. I just know it. And she looked and looked and looked. And the worst that she could find was you clicked on the little heart on a couple of jiggly bikini girl videos.

Yes.

And, uh, that sent her over the top, over the edge, and, um, to the point where she was messaging you with suicidal things. Yeah.

And to be fair, this is, uh, so that happened at the very beginning of August, and she let this simmer. I mean, it was, it was an initial blow up, but kind of just humming underneath the surface. And then that, at the end of August, when that big blow up happened And so the question then is, what is it about her that may affect—

for example, and I know this is not fair to compare, but it's just for illustrative purposes. My wife and I walking through the mall, my wife will literally elbow me and say, check it out, and some woman that looks like a porno star walks in front of us, and I go, damn, and we go about our way. Like, that's the extreme example of a woman who's so secure in herself that no Not only does she not mind her husband looking at women, she will point them out to him.

Sure.

And then I think the more common one is the man, you know, he can't help it. The woman walks in front, super, super hot. We all have that vision in our mind of what that means. And she walks in front and his eyes just naturally follow. And then he catches himself and he goes, you know, look away, dummy, don't be a creep. And he— and it lasts for all of maybe 2 seconds. He goes, what the—

whoa.

And then he looks away, but the wife catches him. And the wife says, what you looking at there? You know, kind of tease him. He's like, nothing. Uh-huh, I bet it was nothing. You want to go, uh, ask her out for coffee? Oh, shut up. You know, and then they, they laugh about it and then they're done. But your wife is on the opposite extreme, which is, I noticed you looked at a couple of strangers on the internet and liked their video. Now I want to die. Right. So the question is, whoa, where did that come from? But sure, so, but to paint the full picture here, she has a history of depression. She's told you this right off the bat. She has a history of men who have done her wrong in the past. On top of that, she had a hysterectomy, right?

Yes, sir, she did.

Partial? Full?

Uh, full hysterectomy.

Oh wow. Okay, so as you know, or may not know, um, something like a hysterectomy does a real number on your, uh, your hormones.

Yeah, and luckily they were able to leave her ovaries, so she wasn't knocked into early menopause or anything like that. Um, but we were told that, you know, of course, you know, you take endometrial stuff out, I mean, it tends to fluctuate some things for a while.

Yeah, well, when I say complete hysterectomy, usually that means ovaries and, um, all the other stuff.

Oh, understood.

Yeah, yeah, so they did a partial. Yeah, yeah, so they left in the ovaries. So yeah, the thinking is that, yeah, it'll still be pumping out the necessary, you know, estrogen, progesterone, whatever. I'm not a scientist. I'm not— I don't know what's going on there exactly or what's responsible for what, but she shouldn't be as bad off as if she had— did have her ovaries removed. But still, number one, she went through the trauma of a surgery. Some people just coming out of tonsillectomy will be kind of depressed, um, but she had a surgery which will alter her her hormonal makeup slightly, not as much as the full, but yes, it will slightly. It will alter her sense of self, of who she is as a woman. Who am I? I'm— this is— I'm putting words in her mouth, but in general, the theme for a lot of women is, I don't even know what my identity is anymore now that I'm no longer a childbearing woman. Sure. I'm a barren woman, what good am I to the world? My identity has been a baby maker, mom, etc. My— now on top of that, um, I'm probably gonna end up looking like shit. My husband won't like me anymore. On top of that, I have years and years of depression. On top of that— so she has this perfect storm of shit all hitting her once, and then she— and her head's just spiraling out of control.

She's—

and I know my husband's cheating on me. I just know it. Grabs the phone, looking, looking, nothing, nothing, nothing. Aha, TikTok, there it is. I want to die. So right at this point, are you basically kind of like, I don't know if I can do this anymore, this is kind of the last straw of crazy? I say crazy, I'm using air quotes here. Crazy, that's not a nice thing to say, but you know what I mean. And, uh, or are you like, all right, let's get to the bottom of this and fix this issue? Or where are you right now mentally?

Yeah, so I mean, that, that thought has floated through, uh, through my mind quite a few times. Um, I mean, obviously, being completely honest, I mean, there are some things that are, that are kind of holding me here besides just her. Um, one being like my, my biological daughter. She, uh, you know, she has no relationship with her mother, and this is who she's known pretty much since she was 3. Um, so this has been the biggest mom figure in her life. So, you know, of course that plays a factor because it's like, well, you know, I leave her, well, I'm kind of ripping another maternal figure away from her. Um, you know, that, that's there. Um, but there's also the part of me, it's like, you know, I, you know, of course, like you said, the knight in shining armor, I mean, that, that is still a part of me. And, you know, I wish I could flip that switch and turn that off, but I still want to help, you know. And it's like, I still want to, you know, I, I do feel partially responsible for where she's at. Um, I understand I don't take blame for all of her issues, you know, but how do you take, uh, how do you take partial responsibility for this?

Walk me through that.

Sure. So in, in my mind, like, at least where we're at currently, uh, the hysterectomy came at the tail end of a miscarriage that we had, and she was, you know, really, really excited for this baby. Um, and they, they noticed some, some abnormal stuff after, after she miscarried and said, hey, you got to have a hysterectomy. Well, then she went through this whole, you know, as expected, I understand it, like, you know, well, now we're never going to be able to have a baby together. Um, so that, that's taken away from her, and I feel like that weighed on her tremendously. And then it was kind of like, yeah, it was for her— she, as far as the other women goes, she, she's told me herself, like, I I know men look at other women. It's, it's natural to look around. Her thing was that when I clicked like on these photos, that that was taking it a step too far and almost like soliciting attention. I wanted to say, you know, I appreciate it, you know, because this woman, this, this chick on TikTok has 400,000 people that's like this video, and you think that I'm gonna stand out like, oh man, hey, yeah, I don't look that damn good.

Um, actually, where I thought you were going to go with that was her saying that you are announcing to the world I like these other women, right? That maybe others can go in and see what you like, and that will kind of be shameful to her. Like, your husband goes on TikTok to like other women, and that just, you know, makes her head hang like, I'm worthless. And yeah, you didn't mention before the miscarriage. Oh my gosh, that's another huge—

yeah, yeah, 2022 has been a hell of a year, I would say.

Jesus. All right, so, and you— so you have no biological children between the two of you?

No, we don't. She has a daughter that lives with us, uh, and then I have a daughter.

How old is her daughter?

Uh, her daughter is 10 and mine is 12.

Oh wow, okay, so similar ages. And how is her daughter doing?

Oh good, uh, overall her— so her biological father passed away 2 years ago.

Jesus.

Uh, yeah, so I've kind of, you know, I've been— I've spent more time with her than her biological dad did anyway, but I've kind of—

it's cemented my role as dad to her, so Is there a concern of yours that your daughter— you mentioned that your now wife, let's call her Jane— that Jane is her now, her kind of first, her quasi-mother figure since her other one is gone out of the picture? Um, how— what kind of a mother figure has she been?

Uh, as you would expect.

I mean, she's a good model for you Here's how not to act. Now let's not, you know, let's not throw under the bus completely. Obviously she's got problems, but I'm sure there's something positive that she brings to the table here, right?

No, absolutely. I mean, she is, she is caring, she's generous, she's there for the kids. And anytime my daughter needs her, she's there. You know, I need to talk about something that I don't feel comfortable talking to Dad about, boom, she's right there. Um, like I said, overall she's, she's a very good woman, you know. But like you, I'm sure you see all the time, she is a broken woman.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, it's just how much effort do you put in trying to fix?

Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. And the analogy that I often use, and, uh, I gotta— for those that don't know, I got another book coming out here soon called Divorce Panic. And in the book I talk about, uh, actually rather— I'm sorry, get my books mixed up. I had another one that I wrote for teenagers called Real Talk, and I talked to those boys about, um you're gonna run into some girls in your life that are pretty, quote, broken, and it's not necessarily your job to fix them. You can love them and you can respect them as human beings and you can wish them all the best, but you don't have to take on the task of being Mr. Fixer-Upper. And the analogy I use is, I used to walk by, when I used to work for a big company, I'd go outside to eat lunch. They had the food carts outside the company headquarters there.

Right.

And there was a crazy homeless guy that would always be standing outside the door. So you'd have to walk by him every day. You're like, oh, here we go. And he would just yell out complete nonsense all the time. And sometimes it was hilarious. Most the time it was pretty sad because this is a grown dude and this used to be somebody's baby. This is my son, somebody's brother. So, you know, who knows, somebody's father possibly. And he's obviously mentally ill and life is just shit all over this guy. A lot of what he's experiencing is not his fault. Some of it is, I'm sure. Probably an addict in some way. And we're seeing this now. And I, in a roundabout way, want to show the guy love as a human being and respect, and I feel sorry for him, and I'm an empathetic, sweet kind of guy, so I'll stare at the man from a distance and be like, I wonder what his story is, you know? What got him here? And did he ever used to be normal? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So then do I go up to the guy and say, look, dude, I feel for you, man. Here's the keys to my house. Um, let me get you a taxi. You can go over there, you can get you a shower, get some of my clothes, put them on, get you some food. I'm gonna go talk— I'm gonna go talk to my boss about getting you a job. Like, hell no.

Yeah, there's very clear limits, you know?

Yeah, because we all know where that would lead. Your house would be completely ransacked, um, and, uh, your boss would look at you like you're crazy. Like, you want to hire a homeless dude for a job here? What the fuck? No. And so there's a limit. There's a— there's a— there's some space between I'm empathetic towards their plight, I feel for them, I love them as a human being, but there's a limit to my help. I have boundaries between me and this kind of stuff. I keep that— I keep that stuff at arm's length. Well, a lot of guys hearing your story, not to pick on you, are gonna— are gonna listen to this and go, dude, dude. And then about— and then if you gave us the timeline and you're like, and then in year 2, we'd be like, Dude, dude. Yeah, some guys are what I call these hyper-abundance dudes where they'll be like— and usually they're post-divorce guys that have been really shit on by life and they're just like, I'm not putting up with any bullshit anymore. My last one cheated, yada yada yada. As soon as I see a little red flag, I'm out of there. And they go to dinner with some woman and they're talking and they're enjoying her company, and then she says something maybe about politics or whatever, something that insults him or makes him go, yeah, I'm out of here. And he literally stands up and shakes her hand and goes, hey, it was a pleasure, but this ain't gonna work, I'm out of here. And she's like, what an asshole, what the hell? And if you ask that dude, he's like, I don't— man, I maybe got 30, 40 good years left on this planet if I'm lucky. I ain't gonna waste one minute of my time with a person like that. You know, hyperabundance guy. He just sees like, there's a million women out there, why would I waste another minute with this woman? Sometimes they take it too far. Maybe there's something we can learn from these guys. Well, those guys here in your story, they're the ones going, dude, come on. Dude, come on.

And to their credit, you know, if you're listening, I wish I could be more like you. You know, it's like, that's something I need to work with.

Perfect segue. Yeah, perfect segue into my next question, which is, where does this come from, dude? Where does this knight in shining armor, I can put up with this, it's my job to put up with this, I feel like I'm a better person by, quote, putting up with this. While dude B over here goes, hell no, depression, da da da da da. You had a string of men, you're gonna— some even say, as bad as this is, and I don't necessarily agree with this, they will say, oh look, she has a kid from another man, I'm out.

Right.

So you check that box and said, no, that doesn't bother me, I got my own kid, what the hell. All right, and then she said, all right, but here's the deal, dude, every man in my history of men has been been abusive and terrible. Oh, that, that points to something, doesn't it? That's fine, I'll check that out. That's fine, cool. And by the way, I have a history of severe anxieties, my possible depression, my self-image is in the toilet. Other guys are like, run, run, run, but you're like, hell no, check, check, I'm good, I'm good. What is it about you, and have you had that introspection over the years to understand where this comes from?

Uh, so I mean, as far as being able to concretely identify where it come from, I mean, it's, it's hard to pinpoint. Um, my parents stayed together, you know, the entirety. I mean, both of them have passed, but they, uh, I mean, they remained married throughout. I mean, they never divorced or anything. I mean, their relationship wasn't perfect, they did have a lot of issues, um, but they, uh, they stuck through it. And I guess maybe as that example, I mean, I could see, well, hey, if my parents could put up with, you know, all the they had going on, maybe I can do the same.

Do you want to, do you want to share what some of that crap was that they went through?

I mean, it was nothing to like, you know, like make an example of, just— and I don't want to use the term like normal arguments, uh, because some of it really wasn't, um, but there was, there was no infidelity. They didn't— there was nothing like that. They just— their communication styles sucked when it came to each other. So it was either they weren't talking or they were, you know, arguing. My dad was an old school kind of guy, man of few words.

Yeah.

Would always stay busy. Mom was the main one, like, you know, doting on us kids, running us around, everything. He really wasn't as involved.

Yeah.

In us as kids.

So your relationship with dad was not the closest, not the most emotional. If you had a problem, you didn't go to dad with it.

Not normally. Yeah, not until my mom passed. When, when my mom passed away, he, he really stepped up then, and I was an adult by that point. Um, but, you know, he 180 then, but, you know, he only lived for 3 or 4 years after she passed anyway, so it was, you know, short-lived.

So it may be as simple as father figure, pretty absent in your life, right? Yeah, he was there and he was the foundational thing, and you, you know, you, unlike a lot of guys in your situation, you could point to him and say, Dad's right there. A lot of guys can't do that, but Dad wasn't necessarily there, there. Um, he wasn't coaching all your teams. He wasn't there to put the arm around you going, what's wrong, kiddo? Talk to me. You know, that kind of stuff. It just wasn't— that's not him. He didn't have those tools in his toolbox.

No, certainly not.

Um, so that poor mom, she had to fill both shoes, sets of shoes, so to speak, put on both hats. And, um, do you think she stepped up to that role and played that role well? Or in hindsight, do you look back and go, she didn't have the tools either, but she made do with what she had. And, uh, that may help explain some of your tendencies.

Yeah. And, you know, honestly, I think a lot of what it is, she was, she was always there. She was the constant. But, you know, as a kid, I did notice that, you know, when, when they would have their, their issues, you know, and I would see her down, it was like I would kind of come to her aid.

Yeah, there you go.

It's okay.

There you go. Yeah. You You became kind of a quasi-husband. Yeah, you were her little man. Right. And her little man comes to the rescue. There, there, mommy. And while that in the moment sounds like, oh, a lot of women hear that, go, oh, that's cute, little man coming to mommy. No, it's not a good thing.

Right.

It should be the opposite. And I think right there you just pinpoint a big piece of the puzzle. It was imprinted in you at a young age. I'm not a psychologist or a mental health professional in any way, but I've done enough of these to know like, Holy shit, is your situation common where you're the little man, you're the savior, you're there, there, Mommy, it's okay, everything will be fine. And, um, that imprinted in you that that's what you do with women.

Yeah.

And, um, you, uh, the old damsel in distress. Well, that feels familiar, that feels comfortable, I like it, reminds me of Mommy. You don't overtly say that, but subconsciously it's kind of what's going on. And that's who you're attracted to, and that's who's attracted to you. Because they need that energy. Because your wife, not to pick on the poor woman because she's got issues, she's a human being, don't we all? But she has her own flavor of issues, and her own flavor of issue is she puts her energy out there in the world, so to speak, to the dating world, let's say. And a lot of guys that— the guys that grew up with the strong father figure, the mother figure, the, you know, the good role model, the uncles, the brothers, everybody to help them along the way, they don't give your wife the time of day. And that sounds horrible to say, but they're the ones that go, depression? Nope. You already have a kid? You have a history of horrible abusive men in your past? I'm out of here. Now some people hear me say that, especially a lot of women will go, what a dick thing to say. But it's true. And whether that's right or wrong is not the point. That's just the, that's the trend where these kind of men just, that's why a lot of these women are like, I just can't find a good guy to save my life. It's like, yeah, you got a lot of strikes against you. And a lot of guys have lived and learned, and they're like, yeah, I'm not going down that road, right? I saw how it ended up for my buddy or my friend or my brother, or I experienced it already. The wife number one— no, I don't think so. So you've identified it, you know what it is, you know what's going on, you know where you're kind of at fault here by virtue of your— I think a psychologist type would listen to this and say some codependent tendencies, Mr. Fixer tendencies. Um, Dr. Robert Glover wrote a whole book about it called No More Mr. Nice Guy.

Yes, sir.

Which was about that as well. Yeah, which was— I'm sure you can read that and you're probably going, yep, yep, yep, yep, that's me, that's me, that's me. So basically, and he'll tell you this, his book is basically, um, codependency, uh, in the frame of a masculine frame that we can understand as men, right? And how that translates to very real day-to-day experiences, and it's so common he wrote a damn book and he sold millions of those things, right? And, um, so there you are. Well, it's one thing to recognize and say, all right, I got this issue. I, I kind of sort of know where it's coming from. I see what kind of mess it's gotten me into, not once but twice. So now that you know, what the hell do you do? That's the big thing, because it's one thing to know all— you know, how many guys do we know in the group and so forth who read libraries of books and watch hours of YouTube videos and pay me to talk to me and listen to my podcast and lots of other podcasts, but they don't pull the trigger and do something. Do you see some of that in yourself, that you know what you need to do, whatever that may be, but you're not doing it? Or are you doing it and you got a plan to carry this out?

Dude, it's funny that you mentioned that, man, because it's like, I know exactly like what I need to do and, uh, You know, that's what I struggle with because there, there are hesitancies. Like, I mean, honestly, I could benefit from, from therapy. I mean, oh, absolutely, I'll admit that 100%. Um, you know, we mentioned, you know, her dealing with low self-esteem. Well, it's not, you know, it's something I've struggled with too. Um, not to the degree that she does, um, but it's, it's definitely there. And I think that that kind of like leads to, well, I'll stay with her and deal with all of her stuff because, you know Maybe I'm not good enough for, uh, for something better.

There's the, there's the crux of it all right there, isn't it? Yeah.

And that is a, uh, you know, pardon my language, but that's a son of a bitch to deal with.

Oh sure, absolutely, absolutely. But that's, that's, that's the crux of it all, that, uh, toxic scarcity, as I like to call it.

Yes, exactly.

It's the same thing that keeps people in shitty jobs. Uh, hanging out with loser friends. It's like, uh, I can't tell you how many dudes I've talked to have tried to sell me on the fact that you don't understand, I live in the middle of nowhere America, um, I can't find better friends, better women, a better job, blah blah. I'm like, uh, pick up, get in a plane, and go elsewhere, dude. This is a big world. You've limited yourself to this little 20-mile radius in middle of nowhere Indiana. Give me a freaking break. You got the whole world, you got this abundance of opportunity, and they don't see it that way. No, no, I'm in this little bubble of scarcity, right? And, uh, you again, you recognize it yourself. Yeah, you got this scarcity mindset. So what are some steps to overcome this? Well, let me stop there maybe, because you just said, I know what I need to do. What is that exactly?

I mean, step one would be getting myself into some therapy as well to help address those issues. I would Um, and I think the way that it looks right now, at least for our family unit, man, we're all going to be in therapy because it's like she obviously needs it, I obviously need it. It's like, you know, my daughter could benefit from it from our previous relationship and how that ended.

Is that a source of shame for you to say that out loud? Like, man, my whole family needs therapy?

No, I mean, no, because I mean, I think it's, it's pretty common. And oh yeah, I think it's even more common than people realize. Oh yeah, you know, so I don't feel any shame in regard to that. Um, I think it'd be more just logistically working it out because it's like we could all benefit from individual therapy.

Yeah.

And hell, her and I could definitely use some couples therapy to brush up on our communication skills.

Um, and you know who, you know who would be in charge of organizing all of that and making sure everybody goes to their appointments? That'd be you.

That should— it should definitely be me.

That's a, that's a bit of a— that's a lot of weight on your shoulders, Mr. Fixer Guy.

Exactly. And it, it's, it's paradoxical because like she needs somebody to, to, you know, hey, did you take your medicine tonight? Just take your medicines. You pick up your prescription. But she hates the idea of being controlled, or what she perceives as being controlled. So you'll get snide comments like, yeah, I took my medicine, Dad.

Yeah, I got you. Yeah, very, very, very common, right?

Right.

So Your step one is we all need to get some help with this because we all got issues. But I will tell you, and you just identified it yourself, what are the chances of your wife saying, go fuck yourself, I don't need any help, I'm not doing that, I've already got my meds, I've already got this, I know what I need to do, you're the one with the problem, mister, go take care of yourself? Does that sound pretty realistic coming out of her mouth?

Uh, to be honest, I would say at least in regards to the therapy, no. She's open to the idea. Um, surprisingly, so after this big blowup that we had, yeah, uh, she— I want to say it was like the next day she started taking her medication.

Good.

And thankfully she's been on it for almost a month now, and the change, DSO, has been night and day.

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. That's, that's some pretty potent stuff.

Fantastic. And she made— so she just recently started a new, a new job, um, so we're expecting to get new insurance where I guess it'll cover some behavioral health type stuff. So she made mention that once the insurance kicks in at the beginning of November, she's going to start looking at therapists, and I plan on being extremely involved in that.

Yeah, I was going to say, it's— I haven't heard the magic phrase of she's got an appointment next week, or she's hurt. That's where I say, aha, now you're on to something, you know, high five, girlfriend. But, um, it is very, very, very, very common to hear, I know I need some help, I'll do it. And then next thing you know, 6 months goes by and you're like, did she ever— shit, she never did anything about that. Because it's just so easy just to brush under the rug and just forget about it. You're right, you need to be Mr. Diligent. So we've identified— here's just more weight on your shoulders, isn't it?

Isn't it? Yeah, it is.

Take your meds, sweetheart. Um, did you call about the— all right, I will call the therapist for you. I know you don't like that. I know you don't like being controlled, but This is very important. Yeah. All right. So everybody's got a point where they go, all right, enough's enough of this shit.

Sure.

Um, a lot of men I talk to who put up with a lot, I say, have you even identified any kind of boundary here where you say I'm out? Or, um, something, some flavor of I'm out, whatever that may be for them. And most guys say, if I ever catch her in bed with another guy Sure. Or maybe she was a past addict. If I ever catch her using drugs or alcohol again, or maybe for you it might be— not to put words in your mouth— it may be if she stops taking her meds again, I've told her I'm out. Have you told her that?

I have not told her that specifically. That's the— so as far as establishing a boundary, I have not done that yet, but that is the one that will be kind of thrown out there, um, because she has a tendency when life gets— when life gets hard, you know, as it has a tendency to do sometimes, she'll say, well, the medicine's not working. Yeah, so I'm just gonna stop taking it.

Yeah, dude, she doesn't realize—

so yeah, and she doesn't realize like the, uh, like the night and day change that, that myself and even the kids have noticed, um, to where, you know, she's, she's fine, she's conversating, laughing, enjoying, you know, interacting with the family, as opposed to being upstairs in bed crying, you you know, I don't want to be here anymore. And if it came down to it where she's like, this isn't working, I'm just going to stop taking my medicine, I would unequivocally have to tell her, like, look, I will not go back to where you were. Yeah, a little over a month ago. I just— I can't go to work wondering if you're going to kill yourself while I'm gone and the kids are going to find you.

Yeah, that's, uh, you know, a lot of burden on you though.

Yeah, and it sucks to say that, but it's like, you know, You know, I can't— you know, there comes a point where it's like I've got to stop thinking about her and start thinking about me.

Yeah, exactly.

And I'm more cognizant of the, uh, the effect this situation has on my mental health now because I'm— dude, I'm not a depressed person, you know. Usually, I mean, shit happens, you know, and I get that, but the everyday nonsense of life doesn't get me down, you know. I mean So to be depressed is kind of a, uh, it's, it's, it's a strange subject to me because I've never been there myself, but I don't want to get there either.

Yeah, you keep at this and you will be.

Absolutely.

You absolutely need a roadmap and to stick to it. Yeah, you're in this, um, it's a delicate game you're playing, which is, I know the game plan to get us on a better road here, but God damn, that game plan includes a lot of work on my part. I gotta play the part of the CEO here and manage all this shit. And, uh, you're only one man and you're a human being. You got your job to worry about. You're trying to— you mentioned something about working out, so it sounds like you're in a self-improvement kick.

Yes, sir.

Um, I will tell you a phenomenon that I've seen more than enough times, and you'll probably nod hearing this. I'm trying to envision in your mind— I got one hand going up and the other one going down. Which is the more your sense of self-worth goes up, and that can include your physical sense of worth. Look at me, I'm looking pretty good. You know, I lost 20 pounds the other day. The other day, a lady at work squeezed my arm and said, look at you, mister, you're looking good. And I'm like, well, all right, that inflated my ego and I feel good about myself. And then maybe you got a raise at work and you're like, well, hot damn, look at me looking better. I got money at work. My friends are asking me for advice. I just feel on top of the world, right? And then you come home to, Miss, I haven't taken my pills today.

Yeah.

And then you come home to, I noticed, um, the other day you had what looked like lipstick on your shirt. And you're like, it's not lipstick, dummy, it's paint, right? And you know, just— and it just piles up. Old you, old you, when the scales were down and your sense of self wasn't so great, the— your patience on the other side of the scale was way high. Yes, dear, whatever you say, dear, that's fine, dear. Okay, dear, here's your pill, dear, blah, blah, blah. The more your sense of self-worth goes— and I've seen this so many times— that patience just goes down and down and down. And you're gonna come home one day after feeling on top of the world, and she's gonna have one of her bad spells, and you're gonna be like Fuck it, I'm out. I don't know, I can't, I can't deal with this. This is nuts. What am I doing here?

Yeah. And I think if nothing else, this, this whole situation is kind of, uh, it's kind of lit a fire under my ass, so to speak, as far as looking more into what divorce would look like. And that's, that's not my end goal here, obviously. I mean, you know, I would love to see her at her best because when we're good, man, we're great. Just like, I mean, you hear all the time.

Sure, sure.

Um, but when we're bad, we're real bad. And yeah, this whole thing is kind of said like, okay, well, she's, she's thrown the word divorce out there to me, you know, hell man, at least a handful of times. And oh, I'm sure.

Yeah, you mentioned that the one at your post to us, you talked about, she said she, she threw that out a lot.

Yeah, absolutely. And so for me, it's like, you know what, this is the, uh, this is me saying I am going to, uh, figure out what that exit, you know, what that definitely looks like, what my rights are.

And, uh, good for you. Why not be prepared? So if shit hits the fan, you don't go, oh shit, what now? You say, well, I know what's coming. I need to go to the attorney and say it happened, dude. And he'll say— you'll say, you got it. And, you know, um, flipping the switch and the, the plan is in place. Here's, here's the, here's the agreement already written up. And, uh, here's your kid-wise, here's where you stand, and blah blah blah and all that stuff. So let's, let's go down that unfortunate— let's hope we don't walk down this road path mentally and say, um, that you guys do in fact split. Um, she is in a bad spell, she stopped taking her meds, whatever it may be, whatever— excuse me— whatever flavor of, uh, awfulness finally pushes you over the edge and you say, the hell with this, and you're out.

Yes.

What is life— let's start with her— what does life look like for her in your estimation at that point?

Um, I mean, so we're in kind of an odd situation. I mean, our house is completely paid off.

Um, that's awesome. Unusual.

Yeah, it's, uh, it's nice.

Um, so she'd get a— she'd get a hunk of money in the form of the equity of the home is what you're saying, or something?

Yeah, sure. And she's under the impression that if we got divorced, she wants the house outright. I'm kind of like— there's— I— she asked me my thoughts on— I just kept—

hold on, hold on, let me stop you there. Yeah, her talk of divorce wasn't just throwing out, maybe we should divorce, or maybe this— but she's actually talked about the logistics of splitting assets.

Yeah, she actually, uh, threw— uh, this was in the middle of a big argument we had, uh, probably 6 months ago. Um, started out innocuously enough and then snowballed into a bigger argument. And she said, well, you know, maybe I need to start planning for what happens if we don't work out.

It's not like she beat you to the punch then, right?

Yeah, for sure.

It's like, huh, that sounds familiar. So would it surprise you that she probably already talked to somebody, like an attorney?

That— I mean, it would surprise me. I mean, of course, every guy you talk to is like, oh, I can't picture her doing that. So nothing would surprise me, you know. Um, do I think that she has?

No.

Um, but I mean, she very well could have. I just don't see anybody saying, yeah, you're gonna get the house outright, you know, and all the equity involved.

Okay, well, so back to the original question, what does life look like for her? You went down the road of, well, logistically, financially, she'll get some money coming to her, blah blah. Okay, let's say all that's ironed out, the divorce is— the gavel, the, you know, the judge hit the gavel, the divorce is over, she gets what she gets, you get what you get, and now she's on her own and she's a single— she's a single mother. What does life look like for her going forward?

I think it would honestly— I think she'd be okay. I mean, she makes decent money. Whether or not she'd stay on her medicine on her own accord, I couldn't say. She has— we— neither one of us has a ton of family support just because, you know, a lot of our families passed away, unfortunately. But she has more than I do. I think that she'd be okay. The location where we're currently living I'm about 40 miles or so from my nearest actual relative. Um, I think she'd be okay.

Um, and her daughter, you're basically dad.

Yes.

Um, is there a part of you that wonders if she goes off the deep end, you're gonna end up with that girl just like you did the first time around?

Yeah, and that very well could be. Um, I can't say for certain because, I mean, I don't know how that necessarily works with step-parents and such, but I mean, I would That's not unheard of, dude.

Not unheard of, right? That— where it usually gets difficult is, you mentioned she has her family. Where it gets difficult sometimes is if grandma, grandpa, whoever is over on her side of the family, they raise their hand and say, we are actually next of kin, we should get the kid, not her ex-husband who has no blood related. So then you have that whole little battle there, and you know, where's the kid go and everything. I've seen this before, so that's why I'm speaking from experience. Um, but, uh, no, probably life would not be very good for her, to be quite honest with you. And, um, based upon past experience and based upon the wisdom of what I've seen this happen so many times, you may or may not be surprised at how quickly she runs into the arms of another guy.

That very well— I mean, I could picture that.

And it will either be another one of you, or it will be super abusive, awful, terrible dude who cheats on her and drugs and everything else and beats her and everything. It seems like there's no in-between there. It's either super knight in shining armor, don't worry, I'll take care of everything, or the complete opposite, which seems to be your experience. So, but these women don't stay single long, that's for sure.

Sure.

But okay, jumping on the other side of the fence, you're newly divorced and you're single. What does life look like for you?

I think in the initial would be kind of difficult, especially with today's housing market. Um, I'd have to obviously find a new place to live. I'd want to keep my daughter in the same school district to, you know, minimize the disruption in her life. Um, I would want to do what I can to maintain contact with my stepdaughter because, I mean, she's a big part of my life also. Um, aside from that, man, I would, you know, just put my nose to the grindstone, man. Keep, keep working on me. I would absolutely take a timeout from any relationship whatsoever.

Good, good.

Yeah, dude, I know you hear that a lot and you see it's done less than people say it's going to.

Well, you know what makes it even harder is I talked about, you know, I talk about the scales and your sense of self-worth. Um, your pool of women candidates goes up quite a bit, right? And the quality of said candidates goes up quite a bit to where like you're even shocking yourself where The cute girl from The Office? Really? She just said she wants to text me? All right, cool. I'm a single dude, why not? And then away you go. Or, you know, a little internet thingy here and there, whatever it may be. It's surprisingly simple. So it's a real test of your strength to say, keep the women at arm's length. And some guys are even blunt enough to tell these women, I'm out of divorce, I'm broken, run for your life, woman. You know, kind of in a joking way. I ain't ready for dating, save yourself. See you later, bye kind of thing. Talk to me in a year from now. But, um, we're— we've almost— we're almost to an hour already, but, um, these go by pretty fast.

Yeah, definitely.

So if you were looking for, hey, what do you think I should do now? I think the therapy thing is a no-brainer, dude.

Yes, sir.

Go talk to somebody, and you'll find that, um, your situation is so damn common that they can probably just take out a manual of like, okay, Ray, let's say, oh look, here's your picture right here. You're the poster child for this. They look up in the dictionary for the codependent Mr. Fixer dude and there you are. You'll be like, wow, so you know this situation? Yeah, we know this situation. We've seen it a million times and here's what you need to work on. Those are the kind of—

Yeah, you're not special.

Yeah, these are the kind of conversations you need to have. In your area, how far is Maryland from you?

Oh, not, not too terribly far, about 45 minutes, give or take.

Okay. You know, uh, Dr. Psych Mom, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. She helps out with this kind of stuff. So you may want to look her up, and I know she has a network of therapists that she works with in your area, and look one of those up and see how they can help you out. And Dr. Psych Mom, if you're listening to this, got one for you here. I want to talk to Ray— not his real name, but she's probably listening to this saying, oh yeah, I know what's going on here, and definitely can help. Um, and, uh, you know, and talking to the guys who've been there, done that helps immensely because, as you know, you're not alone. Other guys said, yeah, been there, done that, here's what happened. Um, I feel your pain, brother. This is what I went through and this is how I overcame it and so forth. And oh, that's huge. And talking to guys like me is huge, whether it's me or one of the other guys on the team. Just, just helps tremendously because, uh, absolutely, you, um You're in for some shit, mister. This ain't gonna be easy. Whichever direction it goes, it ain't gonna be easy.

Yeah, for sure.

Such is life.

Um, but you know, at the end of the day, man, it's not gonna— not gonna kill me. It's not gonna, you know, whatever. It's like, I, you know, I know what steps I need to take and I know the work I need to put in, and I'm not scared of hard work regardless.

So, and your boundary of if this happens, then this is the consequence— you got to stick to that. You got to stick to that shit. And don't surprise her with it either. Let her know. Let her know now. And you can use me if you want as an excuse and say, um, you can say something like, I spoke to a counselor or coach, whatever you want to call me, and, uh, we were talking about stuff and I told him my fear of you going off your meds and what that meant for us, right? And he suggested that I should bring that up to you and not keep you in the dark about what my thoughts are. So here's my thoughts. If in fact you do go off your meds, I'm out of here, right? And I know that sounds cold, and I know it sounds mean, but that's for the best for me and you, frankly, um, because you are a night and day different human being when you're on this stuff. And I love you to death, and I want to be with you till the day I die, but this Jekyll and Hyde routine's got to stop.

Sure.

Because this is going to end up killing me, and it's going to end up killing you, and it's going to be bad for the kids. We got to raise these kids because you You both have generational issues of shit that's gone on, and you need to stop it like now.

Yes, sir.

And, um, your kids are seeing an up-close, front-row view of how mom and dads interact and what is good and not good, and they are taking it all in, and they are taking notes, and they are recording it for later on in life.

Definitely.

And now it's time to go, well, here's the second act, kids. Watch this, right? This is how a real man does this. This is how we handle this.

Sure.

And, uh, make an adventure out of it, you know. This is like, uh, Ray 2.0 here, right?

Absolutely.

And, uh, let's see what we can do. Have fun with it.

Yeah, definitely.

But realize, yeah, life's going to kick you in the balls here a few times, but that's fine. Keep on kicking. What else you got, life, right? That's the attitude. So, um, and you're an extremely nice, sweet, super intelligent guy. You got it all going on. I mean Dude, the world's your oyster. You just got to wake the fuck up and realize it.

Yes, sir. And I sincerely appreciate that.

No problem. My pleasure. And thank you for doing this, man. I know you got to run. Thank you. I appreciate this a whole bunch. I hope the people listen to this, get something out of it. And if, if any of this sounds familiar to you, check out the Dad Starting Over coaching. If you're not in therapy already, please do so with a licensed therapist, doctor, psych mom, or whoever may be out there to help you out. Uh, we also have a deal with BetterHelp for you guys that are out in the middle of nowhere and you cannot find a therapist in your area. Something I hear quite often— all the therapists are booked up for the next 2 years, there's only 2 in your little town, whatever. Go to betterhelp.com/dso and you can get 10% off your first month of therapy through BetterHelp. They match you up with a therapist that's near you, knows your situation, can help you out, and you can talk to them on the phone, via text whatever it may be. There's all kinds of different avenues to talk to these people on your time via email, whatever it may be. So it's been a tremendous help to a lot of guys in the Dad Starting Over world. And guys, to check out the DSO fraternity, join a group of dudes. I think Ray can attest it's worth the $14.99 a month.

Absolutely is, man. Don't second-guess it another minute. Get on it.

Thank you, brother. All right, sir, I wish the best. Stay in touch and, uh, look forward to chatting with you in the group.

Yes, sir. Diazo, thank you so much, man.

All right, you have a good one.

You too, sir.