Mrs. DSO and I Talk About Sex After the Baby

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. Everyone, DSO here for DadStartingOver.com, and with me today is the lovely and talented Mrs. Adioso.

Oh, I hear the magic unicorn sound.

Mrs. DSO is without headphones today because my headphones are broken, so she doesn't hear the noises I'm playing. Or do you?

Well, I heard some magic unicorn stuff.

Oh, that's it. I did play the magic unicorn. I need some fart noises on here or something.

You really don't.

Anyway, what are we talking about today, Mrs. Deason?

Sex after kids.

All right, just go right into it there.

Mm-hmm.

I was hoping to draw it out or something.

It's kind of late. We need to get this done.

Okay. It is like 10 o'clock our time on a Thursday evening. You got to be at work early in the morning. Mm-hmm. And, uh, all right, away we go. Sex after the baby, for those that don't know. It's not like everyone listens to us religiously. There are going to be new people hopefully with every episode, but we are relatively new parents to a 9-month-old baby girl who we call— her nickname is The Bean, B-E-A-N, The Bean. Um, so we've made no hesitation about sharing some aspects of our sex life in previous podcast episodes. Do a search for, uh, I can't remember the title of it. Mrs. DSO and I talk about our sex life, I think. So here's a little follow-up after that one happened pre-baby, right? I believe that episode we talked about that. So that was a good year plus more at least.

I think we had one post-baby where we briefly brushed on it, but we never really went into it.

But our big episode where we talked all about our sex life and all that other stuff was—

that was way before baby. Yeah.

So This is a good, all right, now that we've been married longer, number one, and number two, brought a new human into the world, here we are. Let's talk about what effect this has had, if any at all, on our sexy time. How to begin. How would you rate pre-baby versus post-baby sexy time between the two of us?

Definitely better. Excuse me, I'm sorry.

It's now better than when it was?

No, no, no, it used to be better.

Oh, okay. I was just gonna say.

So I think it was better in the sense that it was more frequent, for sure. It was more free because there wasn't any worry about kids waking up and stuff like that. So I think now it's a little bit more restrained, if that's the right word, and a little bit less frequent. But not— not when it happens, it's still amazing.

I see. Okay.

I don't know if that's how you feel about it.

I do. Um, I think what every man will say is that—

wait, wait, wait, you don't though. You called it mediocre a few weeks ago.

I didn't say it was mediocre. I was joking. I said you could have done better. Uh-huh. You kind of phoned it in that one night.

I see.

I was like, yeah, so, all right. Hey, I got my wish. You did turn it up a few notches afterwards. I was pumping my fist and saying, job well done, Mr. DSO. Anywho, so You know, we try to— or we often label men as pretty simplistic. Just give me a blowjob and a sandwich and I'm good to go. Hey, there's some truth to that. Let's, let's be honest here, right? But you know, in doing what I do and talking to so many men, you start to realize men, including myself, are a little bit more sensitive than what we like to think. We're some softies when it comes to this stuff. And sex is a big thing for us, not just because I get to release myself and have an orgasm and release that pent-up tension that's down there, if you know what I mean. That's a factor of it, but it's also a factor of validation. And we feel like more like men when our women really want us. And for men that have experienced what I and others have experienced, usually ironically post-divorce dating after being in a marriage, you know, for a while, a ho-hum marriage, and then you go in the dating world and then you're like, wow, women really like me. And when we have sex, it's like, holy crap, and they want more of me, and they like to be around me, et cetera. That's intoxicating. And don't misinterpret what I'm about to say as being a, oh, woe is me. It's just this is what it is, and it's perfectly healthy and natural for it to do so. That gets turned down quite a bit with the introduction of a new little human being in your life. Um, because you're no longer the, um, number one person in the eyes of your spouse. You always will come second to the little human. Um, that's kind of a heartbreaking thing for some men, but then we come to terms with it pretty quickly. That's all right. I used to be— I used to be the number one. I used to be the this and that. I used to be like this over the top. When, when you click with somebody and you're hypersexual with them, it's not just I love you and you're the best, but it's also they show it physically over and over and over again. I mean, we've— okay, let me just— I was just gonna say, we've done— let me just stop there. We're not gonna go into detail about everything we've done. I don't think that's the classiest thing in the world to do, nor is it anybody's business. But I will just say, we've done things that if I were to sit down and tell some, some friends over a beer or two, they would be— eyebrows would raise, be like, goddamn, dude, that's been us for a period of years. So when we— when you're at that high of a level of Intimacy, sexuality, when that gets knocked down even just a little bit, it's kind of like, man, but you quickly go, what am I complaining about? It's still good. And there's a good reason for it to be knocked down. Just the logistics of doing all that and the ways we did it just can't happen now. Not with an infant. Maybe next year this time. But do you know what I'm saying?

So I'm hearing a lot of mediocre. No, no.

What did I say? No, no, it's just that when you start from such a high—

no, I know what you mean.

Yeah, um, you know, let's have sex outdoors, let's do this in this public thing, let's do that, and you know, blah blah blah, to, um, it's 8:30 and I'm really, really tired. That's a dip. That's a, uh, to some men that are more needy than I am and more sensitive than I am They would be like— some men interpret that as, ah, here we go, it's over now. You know, the old bait and switch. You know, now that she's procreated with me, there's no need for all that, that show. Which the sentiment behind that is that that was a put-on, that that was an act by the woman, that she did that for a period of months or years simply to get me. And now that she's got me and the kid, Phew, she can just say, I don't have to do that shit anymore and pretend that I like that anymore. And I don't think that's the case with the majority of cases. I think it's just no kids, no strings, all everything that goes with kids equals— oh, speaking of, what a, uh, what, uh, timing here. The baby just started screaming in the background. I don't know if you guys can hear that on the mic. All right, we're back. Baby just yelled one time and we're done. So we're good. Maybe we're being a little loud in here. I don't know. There you go. It's a perfect illustration. So where was I? So, yeah, where was I? I've totally lost my train of thought.

I don't know why you were talking about— Oh, so, okay, sensitive to the change.

Yeah. So just the, the logistics of having a baby and everything and all that fun stuff just gets in the way of a lot of that. And so you don't get it. And so obviously, you know, if a woman notices her man's a little mopey Um, even for guys that aren't very needy like I am, it's just, just a kind of a comedown, a kind of a— you're coming off a high, right? You're coming back from the big Hawaiian vacation and you're back to your job. You don't hate your job, you don't hate your life, but it's just, it's an adjustment. Yeah, with the— but you always kind of hold out hope that we'll return back to Hawaii one day.

But it might be the same Hawaii.

It won't be gone forever, I think. Well, that's the question. Can we ever return back to the old us? 1000%. I think we in blips, not for extended periods of time.

Yeah, and you pointed out, you called it a little bit of a mourning experience, and I think that's it. It's, um, as we move on in our lives, there's a lot of things that we mourn. We're sad over not being in our 20s anymore, not partying like we used to, not having 20,000 heads turn in the cafeteria when we enter because we look so handsome.

First of all, that's a big cafeteria. Whatever.

And, um, I think there's just a lot of things that we have to say goodbye to as we get older and as we get more adult and we pile on more responsibilities. And this is like a big one, a big mourning process for both, like for you and for me. And, and I think you're talking about the male perspective, but we haven't even started— no, the female perspective on this. And, and so I think both partners are going through a major adjustment that affects the sex life, um, but also affects people emotionally. And you're not necessarily emotionally on the same page either, which can lead to an additional disconnect. So you feel a little bit left alone and left behind because you were my number one, and you know, I would give you head massages and spa days and foot massages, which by the way we've still done after baby. No, we're still doing that, but I'm just saying it's not as common. Like, you're not my very first thought, you know. Wait, I'm not done.

But not to interrupt your train of thought, I think the, the grand theme here is that all that stuff you just mentioned, which is awesome, almost came very effortlessly. Effortlessly.

I can't speak effortlessly.

Thank you. Um, but now it takes a little bit more work and, uh, overcoming a lot of that stress and stuff with baby. So it's tougher.

Yeah, it's tougher, but we still make the effort.

Yeah.

But I think, um, from your perspective, it's the, okay, I got knocked off my throne of being the number one in my wife's life to now being the number, number two if I'm lucky. And, uh, for the wife, it's a very different perspective because we're, we're very excited about having that little human being, but it also takes the last out of us in addition to the physical changes. So we are not even thinking of you in that way. We're just like counting on you to be—

we're the for sure thing.

Yeah. So we don't see you as, oh, you're my number two on the list of amazing things I have to spoil. You're really not even anywhere in that realm.

You're like, well, even in a better, in a better way of putting it is that I am your partner and it's you and me and, yeah, and team Mr. and Mrs. DSO. Let's help raise this kid. So there's, there's, when you're a team together, you're not like, oh, I better take care of this guy over here.

Yeah, you, you basically, you went, in my eyes, you went from my baby, my, my man that I love spoiling, that I love pedestaling, that I just love treating like a king went to equal partner now, and I rely on you to help me and to be there, and I don't even need to tell you what you need to do. You just need to be there and do it. And I think that's a huge change that we don't even share with you, that that changed. And, and so the perspectives are very different in, in how the roles changed in the relationship once the baby's there. But there's so much to talk about here, I don't even know where to start.

I know. I think if we had a good start here or not, I think we're kind of waffling a little bit.

A little bit. But I think the, um, I think we're having— we're making a really big effort at not letting things slide because it's so easy to just go 5, 6 days without sex for the woman. I don't think it's easy for you because it's probably the longer it goes, the more you think about it and the more it becomes a physical need, not just an emotional and physical need. Um, but for us, it's like the last thing on the list right now. We were so— I'm— I mean, I can just speak for myself, but you're so tired. You have a human physically attached to you a lot of the hours of the day. Your, your body is— you're like, you have this parasite. First it was a parasite inside you, and now it's a parasite outside you that, you know, sucks on your boobs, that wants to be held, that scratches you, that claws in your hair. There's just a little human monkey that is always on you, and it makes your body feel very used. And then at the end of the day, you're tired. Your body has gone through major hormonal changes. You don't really recognize it. You don't feel like it's the most attractive body. And then there's this man that clearly has a need and wants to feel connected and wants to be close to you, and all you want is to not be touched because you were just touched all day long. So I think that's a big issue that a lot of women deal with. But then you also know, well, I am a wife and I love my husband and I need the connection, and, and you want to connect. It's just so hard on a physical level to connect at this point because you really, really just don't feel comfortable or sexual in any way.

Well, let's be honest, we're fighting Mother Nature here. And kind of, I don't know if anthropomorphizing is the right word, but trying to interject some human emotion to where maybe it doesn't belong, but trying to understand what's going on physiologically to each person. It's the woman's body is telling her, you procreated, sweetheart, you know, take care of this little infant, devote all resources and all energy and all bodily functions to keeping this little human alive until it is weaned. Whatever that means for the human race. I don't know what the proper year is when you can say, now I don't need to have this thing attached to me for so long. So you got that you're working against. Um, and for the man, as horrible as it sounds, it's kind of everything in your body is saying, all right, I knock this one up. I, uh, yeah, wouldn't look— kind of looking around going, where's the next one? But as a society over generations, we've done a pretty good job of tamping down, if that's the proper term, the man's urge of, you don't do that. You need to stick around and kind of help out with the kiddo, change some diapers and help feed them and play with them and go earn a living to keep a roof over the head and everything else. So you don't do that. Maybe we haven't done as good of a job societal-wise to tell the women, hey, You need to kind of— we know everything in your body is screaming not to, but don't forget the dude over there. Um, I don't know, maybe that's just based upon my, my audience, that what I hear. But, uh, from a lot of men, and I've said this before countless times, when I ask men, all right dude, your marriage is shitty, right? Yep. Well, can you tell me when you think the wheels started to fall off the relationship? And the absolute positive number one thing I hear from guys is usually they don't they're not able to immediately tell me like it was a Tuesday, February 27th, but they'll just think a little bit and they'll go, probably around the— yeah, I'd say around the time our first kid was born. And then when the second kid was born, oh shit, it just went in the shitter after that. If left to our own devices, if we just kind of throw up our hands and say, human nature, do what you will, you're asking for a whole heap of trouble and you're asking for a disconnection between the two of you. And it can be argued that's a very natural thing. If left to our own devices, yeah, you go wander off and get you a new one, and you, wife, just sit there and, uh, do what you're supposed to do. Take care of that little one. Forget all your needs and everything else. Just— it's the little one. That's it.

Yeah, but it takes two people to raise this little one. And I think that's what I— what I think is the most crucial part, is that you made this baby together. This baby came out of your love for each other. In your union, and you need to raise the baby with the love that you have for each other and out of a union that you two form. So you need to make sure that union stays intact and that you guys stay the team that you were before. And in order to stay that team, you have to keep your connection and your intimacy going. So even though physically and emotionally I'm exhausted and I'm not feeling sexual, and I really— like, sex is probably the last thing on my list of things I want do at the end of the day, I do really, really want to connect with you, and I really want to make this marriage work and last and be better and stronger, because we want— I want our kids, or kid, to grow up in this loving environment that we're building. And I love our relationship. So even though physically I'm not really necessarily wanting to have sex, emotionally I really— or rationally, maybe even just rationally, I want to have this work out.

What we're talking about is a thing which is, uh, for listeners of this, and there's listeners of a podcast which we're becoming more, um, associated with, the Dr. Psych Mom podcast. And she's a psychologist that has the female point of view, and she will often say that within the confines of a monogamous relationship, obviously the sexual energy in a woman naturally tends to go down, and it becomes what we call responsive in nature. But, and I have some thoughts on that. I agree with— isn't all sexual energy responsive in a way? You know, we all respond to something like, oh, who's that guy over there? That's a response. And let me talk to him, I like him. That's a response. And I like the way he looks, that's a response. And getting to know him better, and suddenly I want him. It just seems like that, that spontaneous— if I don't drag this man or woman into this next room and do them right now, I'm going to lose my mind. Um, happens outside of that secure monogamous parental type of thing way more than it does within. And it could be argued as to why that is, but it just is. And everyone— not everyone, but most psychologists and therapists have noticed this. So what they've said is, well, women, when they're in this safe, secure thing, especially when kids are involved, they tend to have what we call a responsive libido, which means It basically goes like this. Um, I recognize I love my husband. I recognize that I do have attraction to him still. Um, I am willing to get going. And oh, you know what? Once I get going, I actually like this. This is why— this is why we do this. Oh yeah, great. I'm glad we got going. Good. And then you could forget about it for a couple days, and then here comes the husband grabbing your butt and doing things. Well, I love him. Okay, let's go. You know what? I'm glad I did this. This is why I did this. Great. It's wonderful. We men cannot really relate to that too well, and some of us may even take offense to that because we're thinking you should be like, husband, me want now. Let me jump on him right this second. If I don't, then I'm about to lose my mind. And some men will even point to, if you are more of a, quote, alpha male type, then you are more apt to get that kind of reaction out of her. They may have a point to some degree. In fact, I espouse some of that in my book, The Dead Bedroom Fix. I think the book goes a little bit deeper than that of trying to give some fake bravado and machismo and stuff. It's more of being a more interconnected couple as opposed to putting on a front. But I think what a lot of men that I talk to find out, myself included, and you've read my stuff or listened to my stuff, Um, where we have been in a long-term relationship and then our partner finds a new person and it re-energizes them. This is specifically the woman that we're talking about, and we're like, wow, who the hell is this person? She wasn't like this for the last 15, 20 years of relationship, and suddenly she finds a new dude and she's taking off like a rocket. Um, does that point to he has a list of characteristics that I don't have? Possibly, but I'll tell you what's probably 90% of the case is that he's just new. And that's kind of a disturbing thing for a lot of people to hear. Wow, it takes somebody new to light that fire and get the, that explosion that every man wants of sexual desire. Yeah, it does. So how can you mimic that within the confines of a marriage once you have a kid? There are ways, and one of the big ways is stay connected and go out on dates for one. Which we've done a good job of.

We started that pretty much when the baby was just 4 weeks old.

But let's also say this, um, we make enough money to where we are able to hire someone to come to our home and say, um, can you watch this kiddo for a couple hours? We are going to go out to eat, which we just did tonight, which was why we're starting this podcast so late at night. Excuse me, because we, uh, went out to dinner.. And we had, um, a lady that, that watches the kid all the time come and, and watch her while she was sleeping, make sure everything's okay. There are plenty of people, and I would even say the majority of people would listen to us and how often we go out and do our thing and probably go, oh wow, you guys go out quite a bit. It's true. And kind of sad, isn't it? Because we look at that and go, that just seems normal.

I know, I know people that haven't been on a single date night since the kids came.

For months and years.

Yeah, but then I just made a friend who does the same thing. She has a 10-month-old, and she and her husband have been going on dates every week, two dates. One is a coffee date and one is an actual evening date. And she says that's the only way that they can emotionally and physically connect because they're away from the baby, they're away from the in-laws that come and come by the house all the time, and they really need that space with each other. And I think it's great that they recognized that early enough before they got into trouble with each other.

And so, but here's the problem. There's a lot of guys listening to this saying, that sounds wonderful, good for you two, but I've tried, man. I've been telling this wife of mine since that baby came out, we should go out, and she's like, no, I can't leave this kid with anybody. The only person we have to watch the kid is my Aunt So-and-So, and she's crazy, and I can't leave with her. Or your mom— and very often a lot of, a lot of wives say, your mom and dad, husband, I can't trust with them, they're nuts. And They don't follow the same kind of rules I do, and they don't respect my wishes as the parent, and I can't leave with them, and my mom and dad are out of the picture. And so they're left just guys going, so does that mean we're done as a couple? Yeah, basically.

Well, there's also special needs kids and kids that are maybe more difficult. They might have been preemies, etc. So there's, there's a lot of special circumstances where that becomes even harder. Or when you have 3 kids, you know, not— it's not that easy to find a babysitter for 3 kids. They all have different needs and different stages, and some of them might be texting you during date night. So it gets, it gets harder and harder the more kids you have. And then add to that a societal message that the women receive that is all about, well, you just made a human and you're the woman that has to work full-time and tend to these kids, and you don't have to be back in your perfect body. Don't— you don't have to worry about working out and looking good, and you just do what you're doing right now. That's enough. And it I think that's a good message in the sense that we don't need to put more pressure on women in terms of, hey, you're not doing enough, you need to be perfect in all ways. But unfortunately, the message often turns into, yes, you go, girl, you gained 60 pounds and now you're, you know, you're okay with that and you're not trying to better yourself because it's okay. You just made a human and you're tending to that human. And that's, that's all you need to do right now. I think that's— yes, it's a good message, but you still have to work on yourself and you— and it becomes harder.

You know, you're tapping into a subject that we've been hitting on in the DSO fraternity group. By the way, go to dadstartingover.com/join and to see about joining the group. But we have some private discussion groups where we talk, and I've recorded some, done some articles and podcasts on the subject of— and this is a common scenario, and you and I talked about this earlier, um, not necessarily a guy who's read my stuff, but just a guy who's going on some kind of really big self-improvement kick. Will lose weight, feel better, make more money, and he's really— he's Mr. Winner Dude, right? And he comes home to a wife who's just very much just not jumping on board at all. And the overall sentiment from her and many women like her is like, you know what, F you very much, Mr. Perfect Man. Look at you losing weight and doing— yeah, good for you, but you don't understand. It's different for me. Number one, it's tougher for me to get in shape. I'm a woman. And number two, kids. Hello. While you're off running around doing your gym and everything else, I'm stuck with the snot noses, and, uh, etc., etc., yada yada yada. Life is tough. I'm a woman. You don't get it. Go fuck yourself. And, um, my contention is I get their point. I can emphasize— empathize somewhat. But, um, sorry ladies, that's some loser mentality right there as far as I'm concerned. Um, it's really freaking easy to slip into the woe is me Um, this shit takes work. And if you're telling the dude sitting across from you, I don't really see the value of putting in the work to match your level of effort or to even come close to it— which, by the way, I will say this, ladies, if you're in that scenario, you don't have to match your husband 100%. You know, he loses 50 pounds, he looks great. If— this will surprise women— if you just lost 5 pounds, if you just improved your attitude. Even if you just said, that's my husband there, look at him looking good, mister. If you took on that attitude, oh, that's just like the, the heavens open up and the sun shines down and you become an awesome woman. Versus, who do you think you are? It's not so easy. That's very loser mentality type stuff.

It's just very negative.

Very negative. It just— for a man to hear that from his woman is heartbreaking because Every man just wants to come home and a woman to go, "There's my man. How was your day, handsome? Boy, you're looking good. You're losing so much weight. I'm so proud of you. You want me to make your chicken that you like? And hey, I threw out all the snacks because I know you're watching your weight. And by the way, can I come to the gym with you next week? I want to see what you do. I don't want all those pretty girls going after my handsome man." What I just said there, some of you are like, "Yeah, right." That's healthy behavior. You know, if I got a friend who comes to me and says, I just— my business just made a bazillion dollars and things are going well, I'll be like, I am so proud of you, dude. That's awesome. You're amazing. What can I learn from you so I can get a, you know, a glimpse of what you're doing and take you to coffee? A loser friend is like, yeah, right, we all know you cheated your way to the top. It's just because of your dad, who he is, and yada yada. That's the That's the same energy that men are getting a lot from their women, and it gets in the way of a lot of stuff. So you chicks got to cut that out.

Yeah, but the problem is that us chicks now have a giant echo chamber, also known as the social media.

Exactly.

Of, of people congregating online that are all in the same negative mindset and just reinforce each other by saying, you girl, you don't have to do anything for him, and you just take care of yourself, and you go if you don't want to If you want to eat that chocolate ice cream bucket and drink your wine, you go for it. You deserve it. You worked hard. You made a human. Even I have heard that so many times in conversations with my friends after baby, whenever it comes up that, oh man, I still have to lose those extra 10 pounds. People always tell me, oh, you need to cut that out. You just made a human. And I'm like, okay, yes, I did, but it's not like I made a, you know, a 500-pound human. I made a little 12-pound human or 14-pound human.

And well, not at the time of birth, 14, 7 pounds.

Oh yeah, that's true. She's 17 pounds. For those that are thinking she was 7 pounds, so yeah, that's not that much human.

It's the fact that you're European and you're mixing up the kilograms and the pounds thing and all that stuff, so that's why you're confused. Yeah, I don't want people to think she doesn't know much.

What, she, she put a 14-pound baby on the— no, I mean she wasn't that much human to make. So I don't know, I feel like that argument only goes—

it is very far. There is nobody in their right mind is discounting the, uh, the, the severity of the toughness, the impact— that's the word I'm looking for— the impact on a human body of a woman that makes a baby and the aftermath. Holy shit, all of us are like, Jesus, I wouldn't want to do that. That's what all of us men say. And you would be surprised to hear the conversations of My wife says she just hates her little belly. She hates her scar. She hates this. And I tell her again and again, sweetheart, you, you, um, gave birth to our freaking child. You held the thing for so many years. You went through all this trouble. You had a cesarean. I love you to death. This shit doesn't bother me at all. And the women are just, yeah, but I hate it. Here's another thing that gets in the way. And I got on you about this the other day. I don't know if you know, if you remember. About you have to stop this negative self-talk. I'm so fat. The pants don't fit me right. This belly is a lot bigger than what it used to be. I'm just not the same. I would wear— maybe the old me would wear that, but the new me, forget it. There's that negative kind of loser talk, and it gets you nowhere.

No, but I think what it also is, is the mourning that we were brought— bringing up earlier. Is just like you guys are mourning a part of, of our life that has passed. For sure, it's the same with us. We realize, oof, now yes, we made this human, that's amazing, but we'll never have that 20-year-old body back. We'll never have those firm boobs.

There you go again, you're doing it right now.

But that's it, like, it just— it's a mourning period. It's, it's the— not the denial phase, it's just the realization, oh, this is what's happening.

But this is the equivalent of— and I gave this, uh, I wrote about this— let's say there's a guy that's It's like, just got laid off. Like, uh, you're— you are gainfully employed and suddenly this DSO thing goes away and everything else, and I'm just sitting at home going, fuck, I gotta figure out how to make some money. And you're— you're like, I still love you, you'll figure it out, I believe in you. Yeah, all right. And then you come home and I'm sitting on the couch and you're like, how'd the job search thing going? You— I sent a couple emails, you know, nothing much today. I just got so busy with the other stuff. And, oh, okay. And then the next day, um, same thing, but then I add to it, I saw Bob the other day in his new Jeep. Must be nice. If I had a job, I'd get me that nice Jeep. And you'd be like, you'll, you'll get that Jeep one day. Yeah, thanks. And the next day I'm like, uh, look at this guy on TV with his fancy clothes and his this and that. Must be nice to have a job. I keep that shit up for a few days, a few weeks, eventually they're going to be like, or you could just shut the fuck up and go get a job. Jesus, you would go from supportive to, all right, that's enough with the complaining about something that I see is obviously bothering you. I told you it didn't bother me to begin with, but now that you've harped on about it, guess what? Now it bothers me. Now I think less of you as my man. Now you're an unemployed loser. You went from guy I believe in to unemployed loser real quick. Why? You campaigned to become the loser in my mind. That's kind of what happens with these men in these situations is they love their women. They're willing to let a lot of shit slide with the fact that, number one, us men tend to— when all the situations and all the planets align, we tend to really worship our women and let a lot of shit go. Um, that is until you convince us otherwise. And a good way of doing that is Aren't I fat? Aren't I fat? How about fat? How fat I am? Look how fat I am. I'm fat and fat and fat. And eventually we look over at you and go, you know, you could lose 20 pounds. I mean, you do look a little less than what you used to be. And then that energy we put out, you pick up on that real quick. Like, wow, he doesn't even grab my butt anymore like he used to. He doesn't even look— he didn't even— yeah, you did that. Congratulations, woman. How awesome would it be if you just accepted yourself? And I know it's tough. And still we're sexy and still we're, hey, look at me in this cute little outfit, huh? What do you think about that? Oh my God, we would just drool. Even if you just spit out a kid months ago.

It's the whole bottom line is the, yes, you are allowed to mourn. Yes, you're allowed to go through your postpartum emotional phases and all the adjustments, emotional, that it takes to have this human in your life. And it is a tough time. It's, you know, you're realizing there's all these new roles that are coming, and I'm going back to work, and there's a lot of pressures, and it's just unexpected to be this bad, yada yada yada. And there's an adjustment phase, but the bottom line of that adjustment phase is, yes, I made a human and we have a baby now, and this is amazing, and our relationship is on a new level, and we should be excited and happy about it, and we should move on and make the absolute best out of it because we want our kid to be raised by two happy people and not two miserable people. And even if, even if that's just your, the thing that gets you going as a woman, but I think the point is you have to give yourself some time to just adjust. And yes, you can let yourself go for a few months or weeks to just get, find your way in this new role. But at the end of it, you have to come out saying, hey, yes, we're doing the best we can and we're really trying and we're really happy about what we're doing. And then I think a lot of people get stuck in that postpartum rut of, I'm fat now, I'm a parent, I'm no longer sexy, I'm done with this, fuck it. And, uh, you know, it's easy to do that.

And it's ironic, um, I hear a lot of women say, uh, you know, hey, Dr. Psych Mom, if you're listening to this, I heard this on your, on your show the other day, that a lot of women say, you know, it really doesn't matter to a lot of women how in shape their husband is in the sexual desire department. A lot of women, the husband comes home after this newfound energy and he's lost the 50 pounds and she's like, eh, whatever. I tell you what, what a lot of men have found is if I don't keep my foot on the gas and do that kind of stuff, I don't get much of any kind of rise out of her. What we've noticed is that you women very much mimic and shape yourself and change your behaviors and stuff if your relationship is healthy, I should say, to kind of match that of the husband. As sexist as it sounds, it seems to go in that direction more than the opposite direction. I've, you know, my wife just started a CrossFit class. She's looking pretty good. Dude, you look like shit. Do you think maybe you should jump on board and join her? I don't have any time for that horseshit. I work too much. Okay. Versus, my husband's joining the CrossFit class. Do you think I can join you next week? That seems— that goes more often in that direction. So to all the men hearing from their wives, it's silly that you're exercising, it's silly that you're improving, that you're dressing so nice, you don't need to do that, you know that stuff doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever, you know that, right? That's not going to get you any luckier. My advice to men is just to smile and say, all right, I hear you, and keep doing what you're doing.

For sure, because you're— first of all, you're not doing it for them anyway, you're doing it for yourself. Yeah, exactly. And if anything, their talk is just the anxiety in them talking.

Bingo.

Saying, oh my gosh, he's going to look better than me, he's going to get all those gym chicks, he's going to leave me, so I have to talk him down.

And frankly, that little bit of healthy anxiety is a big-time ingredient towards seeing a little glimpse of some of that spontaneous desire again. How many of you guys have told me stories of I started on this program after reading the book The Dead Bedroom Fix. Let me say that title again for those that haven't heard: The Dead Bedroom Fix. Find it on Amazon or any of the other retailers or on my website at dadstartingover.com. And they will say, I've done this process, and I've done a lot of the shallow work of improving myself physically and more confident, and yeah, and helping more in the house with things, but not trying, always looking for mommy's approval, and, you know, being a sweet guy and a loving guy. And I was at a Christmas party the other day, and I don't know what it is about company Christmas parties, but I hear this story all the time. I was at a company Christmas party with my newfound body and my new look and my new outfit, and here comes the office slut. There's always one of those. And boy, she comes up to me and she didn't leave my side the whole night. And the wife just sat back and watched and was like, who's your new friend there? That's Karen. She's Yeah, she seems to like you an awful lot. Yeah, I guess so. And what happens when they get home, Mrs. DSO? What do you think happens to the husband and wife when they get home?

I mean, I could make noises.

The wife jumps his bones. The old spontaneous desire comes out of nowhere, and the man just sits back and smiles and goes, wow, that's hilarious. All it took was the office slut to, uh, you know, I show obvious interest in me from all these men in the office, and, uh, my wife saw that and she's instantly turned on, and we haven't had sex like that in years. And that is a good example of good spontaneous desire. Now, it's also responsive if we want to be technical about it. It's responding to, oh, my man's a valued thing that other people potentially want, even this little slutty thing. That's obviously sexual in nature. I better reclaim my man. I don't think that's verbally what she's— or, you know, overtly what she said to herself consciously, but in her little brain, somewhere in the hindbrain, that's what was happening. So that's one of the tricks of the trade. And many men will report the same thing. I was at this party and I saw my wife was looking pretty damn good, wearing a little thing, and she walked across the floor and I saw 8 men turn their head and looked at her. Said, damn right, that's my wife, and gave her a big old kiss and a smack on the butt, and they went to town when they got home. That's a healthy, normal, natural thing. Um, nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, I think what those scenarios show is also that the partners both still have a huge amount of respect for each other and embrace each other as people. And I think a lot of relationships aren't in that place at all, even before they have kids. And there's lots of little dynamics that are toxic that are hidden under the surface, but things just kind of work out because life isn't that stressful. But once the kid comes and the hormones come and, um, all that, then the toxic issues get completely unroofed and come to the surface. And that's when the women all of a sudden go, I don't really care about you anymore.

It's, um, uh, not to pick on the kid thing specifically, but it's more broadly any stressor. There you go. Any major life stressor.

Can be a job loss.

Or as I call it, a holy shit moment. One of you gets cancer. The most awful, you hate to say this being a father, new father and father of 3 other kids, is one of the most awful things I hear is every now and then the death of a child. And what happens after the death of a child? More often than not, the family dissolves. The two parents split up. Well, why? I can't think of anything more stressful than that. Um, that's a very tough thing, and it breaks the bond between two people. Um, is the birth of a child the equivalent of that? No, but Jesus, it's a stressor. There's no doubt about it. And if left to your devices, if you give up and just lay back and just go, all right, life, do what you will, um I say 9 times out of 10 it's going to go south. That's why I tell guys, hey, if your number one goal in life— and be honest, some of you guys out there listening to this, you are in fact wired to be Mr. Playboy. And you know, you're, you're like, hey, I— the fact that I may have 12 girlfriends between now and the day I die sounds fine with me. I can travel the world, do what I want, make what money I want. I don't want to be encumbered by a spouse and a kid. You're more likely to have a more active sex life than a guy who's like, no, I want to go through life with one person. It's just the way it is. If your number one goal is to be Mr. Playboy guy, probably shouldn't get married and you probably shouldn't have kids. You can probably get away with the marriage thing, maybe, but marriage usually somehow results in procreating and having kids.

No matter, by the way, no matter how many 28-year-olds tell you, oh, I don't want kids, Just give it 7 years and they'll be like, oh man, I really want a baby. I've heard that so many times.

I'm thinking of just 2 right off the top of my head that that happened to. Yeah, I met this gal, she's awesome. And well, she's pretty young. She— nope, she's— she says kids aren't for her. Oh really? That's interesting. Number 1, that's usually kind of a red flag of, uh-oh, something's up there. Um, but, uh, yeah, both instances I'm thinking of top of my head, years later. Wow, little kid, huh? What happened there? Yeah, we decided to go ahead and do that. Um, so yeah, and I often tell men that are in these dead bedroom situations for lengthy periods of time, and it's like, hey, if you want to fix this real quick, dump the wife, go get your girlfriend, it'll be awesome right off the bat. But, uh, invariably what happens with these men is, shit, maybe I should have worked it out with the wife, because now that this new relationship that I'm in is kind of fizzled, and then the second, third kind of fizzled too. I realize there's more to life than just this banging slutty things. There's, you know, I kind of miss my partner and my family connection. Maybe I should have, maybe I should have worked harder or differently to maybe kind of reignite that and get some of my needs met otherwise. Because let's not, um, it's not pussyfoot around here. This is a, uh, I could probably could have used a better term there. Um, this, this, uh, need, this visceral need that we have as men for sex and for that validation. I can't— I cannot emphasize that enough. I have seen very, very good-hearted, sweet guys be rattled by a wife who puts out once, twice a week, and they have sex regularly, but man, he just misses that oomph, that something that he used to have when they first started going out, that that super validation of this woman was absolutely gaga, head over heels for me, and it was just magical. He experiences that, and it is so intoxicating. I don't know if you women can appreciate that. And for that to suddenly go and knock down— maybe even if it's knocked down 25%, this guy's like— I'm like, how are things going? Well, we went from once a month to 6 times a month, dude. 600% increase. Awesome, right? Yeah, but something's still missing. I hear that a lot. Um, and you know, these women, they're trying and they're putting in the effort and they're, they're buying the little sexy outfit, they're doing it, but they're trying to juggle that along with the kids, along with this and that. And the guy's just like, I don't know. There's always that. And what I've seen with these men is that the more they turn up the dial on that, oh, kind of the shallow-y stuff If he looks like a male model, he's getting a lot of attention. And the more attention that male model gets, the more apt he's going to be to say, "Twice a week? Really?" The more he looks like your typical Eugene— that's our generic term for your dorky kind of dude— the more he's gonna be like, "Two times a week? Yay!" So that's the struggle with women. And that spells out exactly why You get a little nervous when your 50-pound overweight guy starts hitting the gym. Like, oh no, it's his, uh, and you just hinted at this earlier, his options just went way up. He may not be so happy with a frumpy little thing that says twice a week. He's gonna want it more than that. He's gonna, oh boy. I don't know, it's a tough thing, and I think some of you guys listening to this probably nodding your head, you know, you can relate to this. It's a tough spot for guys to be in, that balancing act of I want to be a good sweet guy and an awesome dad too. I have very visceral needs that are screaming at me 24/7.

Now I'm kind of depressed.

That's the reality.

Well, but I mean, what is the positive side here? Because you make it sound terrible. Like, you basically make it sound like, um, from your perspective I'm hearing Yeah, I mean, we're trying really well. Like, we would make the most out of it. We are having sex, and it's as much as we can do, but it's never going to be as good as it was. So I'm basically so sad.

That's what a lot of men feel.

But that's terrible.

I think they eventually— there's like a maturation process. And I can think of a few guys in our group that are going through this who are all probably very good moral men, and none of them would step out on the relationship. But they're in this period of almost like a little bit of mourning of, um, I don't know, there's no real resolution here. No, no one has come up with a for sure succinct good solution for all of this.

This is polygamy is the solution.

This, well, no, this is a, uh, a problem that's been since the beginning of time.

Well, because You know what I'm hearing, and I'm doing this on purpose now, I'm giving you the female perspective of this. So the female, as I mentioned, just gets this message of, you just made a human, you had your insides turned out by birthing this human, you're not recognizing your body when you look in the mirror, your whole body is aching. Because trust me, when, when those hormones after delivery go down, you just get arthritis, you sore boobs, you get mastitis, you just— your body is not the same. You feel like a 100-year-old. It's some days you're constantly tired. As I said, your baby constantly wants to touch you and you are giving your— I'm going to argue and I'm going to say I am giving more than 100% of being the best wife I can be, the best mom I can be, the best surgeon I can be right now. And I am not like— my, my cup is empty. There isn't any additional energy left. I'm going to the gym twice a week. I'm working as hard as I can at everything. And then I get the feedback back from you like, yeah, it's mediocre. And so that's the message I get where you're saying, yeah, you know, this is not going to cut it for me, I'm sad, I'm mourning. And I'm like, but dude, this is all I can give you. And so I know, how do we reconcile that disconnect? Because that— this is basically the source of bitterness and growing apart, when really what should be happening is you're acknowledging what both of you are trying to do is, yes, we're both giving our best, and you should acknowledge that and unite over that instead of getting better.

Exactly right. Just as we men have to come to terms with what you are going through, it helps that you kind of understand what we are going through. And we could both very easily throw our hands up and say, "Eh, fuck it. It is what it is. Nothing I can do," right? There are a big group of men that hear just the concept of responsive desire, that hear that and say, "Why in the Sam fuck would any man ever get married?" That's a good question anyway. That is a legitimate, like I say, sexuality and getting your rocks off and getting your needs met that way is of that much importance to you, then yeah, don't do it, dude. But some of us have kind of matured beyond that and said the idea of having a family and going through life with a partner is a big thing. So to hear you, or for you to hear a man say there's a period of mourning after this where I miss this a great deal, and we're kind of struggling with this Oh man, I want to get back to the old her and I never will get back to the old her. Fuck, that sucks.

But here's the news, she wants to get back to the old her too. So I think there is a common ground that both of you could find.

Bingo, thank you. That's where I was going with this. Where do you— where's the middle ground? The middle ground is you miss the old you and me, yes, me too. What can we do to kind of get that back? We can't get it back 24/7. Nope, that's impossible.

But we find a new us.

I like that.

Like, I mean, I think we're making a really good effort at finding a new version of us in this new dynamic. We, as I said, we go out for date nights, we're still doing sexy things. We're— yes, it's not as common, and yes, it's not as ravenous and wild as it used to be, and maybe it will be again, hopefully. You're like, maybe? You're damn right, damn right, it will be for sure. It will be. But I think there's, there's so much more. We're parents now, and there's so much excitement and joy over that, and so many funny little moments and new memories we're making. And I think, as you said, if you want to just be a playboy and get your jollies out of awesome wild sexual encounters, that's great. But there's so much more depth to what we're experiencing.

Well, there's the— we're going back to the old tenets of there's the domestic side I would put baby in the domestic world, and then there's the erotic side, and the two don't really mix.

I mean, they can, but you think it's—

one resulted in the other. Okay, let's qualify that. This woman over here, I'm going to come across sound like a prude here, but she'll hold a baby in her hands and say the most filthy things. I'm like, sweetheart, seriously, child, infant. She's like, she doesn't understand anything. I'm like, she's going to remember. This is going to come up later in life. She's going to be a 21-year-old. Anyway, I could go on and on about such, such instances. But in my mind, yeah, the two don't mix. And I think most would agree, um, you have to find ways to push one aside and make room for the other. You can't be in the erotic headspace 24/7. So a lot of men, I think, can relate to this. And let me share a little bit of personal information here, um, that we have a movie theater in our home that the previous owners put together, that they had installed. So we watch, uh, you know, the basketball and all that stuff on there. I mean, the kids down there— well, the wife and I, you know, I have this fear that the kids are going to discover this podcast at some point, and this will be very strange. Probably a lot of this stuff would be very strange already that we've talked about, but this will be extra strange for them.

Well, you can give a trigger warning to switch off right here if you're listening.

If you're one of my children listening to this, turn it off right now. The movie theater, my— Nusas DSO and I, my wife and I are not opposed to watching pornography together. Well, it didn't take long for us to go, this new house that we're in that we purchased some 4 or 5 years ago, whatever it was now, the movie theater, porn. Hello. So this is a thing. And we don't do it all the time, but it's a special occasion thing for us. Things happen in the movie theater. The kids are gone. We got this giant screen. It's like 120-inch. I don't know what it is. It's a huge thing. And we're watching porn on the thing.

And it's fun. And may I say that I've suggested that too? It's not all coming from you.

Oh no, I wouldn't insinuate such a thing. Let's be honest. You're quite the horn dog. I'm not going to lie.

Yeah.

Don't give me that look.

I'm not.

You are. Anyway, so That, and it always results in— that's a pretty erotic thing, right? Watching porn on a giant screen TV.

It's not erotic, that's just pure filth.

I'm sorry, kids in the house. And it results in lots of fun between the two of us. That is about as high as I can get. We've done a lot of things like the strip clubs and everything else, but that's a pretty over-the-top high thing for us. Um, to come down from that high as a man is tough. I'm ready to do that again the next day and the next day and the next day and the next day. Seriously, I could do that. If you sat down and said, let's do that for the next 30 days in a row, I'd be like, let me check the calendar. Let me see how I can get the kids out of the house. That's how intoxicating that is. It's heroin for us. We're wired for that. Um, so it's, it's tough to— all right, easy, Dio. So, you know, all right, don't, don't push it too much. Don't, you know, be cool, be, you know, be the Hey, mister. Yeah, it was awesome last night, wasn't it? Dirty girl. Well, I just want to say, let's do it again tomorrow. No, easy, easy. It's all right. Don't be too spazzy about this.

Um, that is the kid in the candy store.

Yes, that's a microcosm of us and sexuality. Once we get a taste of it, we want more, and we want more, and we want more. And some men who are your addictive personality types, they don't stop. That's why I'll often get men who— men, you know, I'm going to come across some kind of typical men's rights activist type guy or whatever. That's the wrong term, but you know what I mean. Um, society has done a pretty damn good job for a lot of us men— not all of us, but for a lot of us men— to shame our sexuality. Um, we're predatory in nature. You need to watch what you say around girls. Sexual harassment is an everyday household term. We all know what that means. Why?

Because it's been shoved down our throats because the few bad ones in the big batch have ruined it for everybody else.

Yeah. And so anything that approaches that gets, you know, we get a smack on the hand. Bad boy, don't do that. Um, so I have men that I talk to who feel genuinely bad about— there's this girl at work. I'm like, uh-oh, no, no, I've never done anything with her. No, no, no. Have you talked to the girl at work?

No.

So you're just looking at her from afar? Yes. What's the problem? I feel bad that I look at her and go, damn, she's hot.

I do that. See, that's the difference though. I don't get a girl and I'm like, oh man, of course she has a good body.

I don't want to tell my husband about this. All right, again, you're a horn dog. So we'll talk about that later. But anywho, these guys will feel genuinely upset, almost like they've they have committed adultery in their mind. I don't know if you're— if you're—

no, I can relate to that. I understand what that—

I don't know if you're aware that there was a, uh, one of our U.S. presidents years ago, Jimmy Carter. You know Jimmy Carter?

Of course.

He famously said one day in an interview that he has lusted after women in his mind or something like that. He felt bad about it, if I remember right. I was a little kid at the time.

But, um, that's way better than what other presidents have said.

Yeah. So, um, so there's a speech that I often give to men who are very, uh, guilty about their feelings of lusting after other women, etc. And I'll tell them, I said, dude, you know, pornography is readily available and free, and I could watch porn from now until the day I die and watch a unique porn clip, video clip, from now until the day and never run out of it. And they keep making it new ones day after day. Even with that being the case, porn is still a multi-million dollar industry. So people are still— even with it so readily available and free, men— 98% of the porn is consumed by men— men are still buying it. They're still finding, well, I better, you know, pay this some woman on the internet to join her special fan club so I can get special clips. Men are horn dogs. We have this all-consuming libido and sexual energy. The marketplace has responded to this and has done so since the beginning of time. Uh, prostitution is the world's oldest profession for a reason, because all of these men want more than what they're getting either on their own or at home. And so again, the market has said, well, we see that there's a demand here. Are you willing to spend this much for it? And men for generations after generation have said, yep, we sure are. And some men even go as far as to risk their families, risk their livelihood. And society's done a pretty good job of shaming men for this, um, or belittling them at least. If you are a man and you're caught with a prostitute out somewhere, they— when I was a kid, uh, New York City was famous for, you know, busting men that are getting hookers on the street. And they didn't stop there. They would show their faces on television as they were getting carted off into handcuffs, publicly shaming the man. How dare you do this? So the message from society was clear, which is, uh, that's no bueno. But I tell men it's perfectly healthy and natural. It's just how you direct that energy. Just to look at the chick in the cafeteria on a daily basis at work and just going, damn, she's hot. So the F what? To go as far as to fantasize about the woman. So the eff what? Take that energy home to the wife. Now, if the wife is resistant and said, I want nothing to do with you, that's a whole other ball of wax. Um, very often I'll hear from men that say, I was caught in an affair. Well, what precipitated the affair? Oh, about 2 years of no action from my wife. And did your wife empathize with you in this situation at all? No, in fact, she took me for everything I own. So, well, to those guys I also say, well, I can understand, and I think any rational person can understand where you're coming from. Ideally though, you should have divorced before doing that, before running off and get your jollies. But I get it. So where I'm going with all that is that, uh, we all know this, how important all this is to all of us men, the sex thing.

Um, no, no, it's not just important, it's so physically important for you guys. It's not, it's not like, oh, I chose to make this important in my life. It's a physical need that very much defines everything you do.

It's up there with water and everything else.

Kind of, yeah. And I think that society, as you said, has done a good job at downplaying it to a degree where we think, oh, this is kind of cute, that's all you guys think about. And we don't understand how much of a necessity that is, that aspect of your life. And women definitely do not get it.

There is, you know, we know the rare few older couples that have been together for decades and they're still kind of sexy and fun with each other. And you will hear from the women a lot of— they've kind of resigned themselves to the man is sexy and horny all the time. Teehee, it's a fun part of what we do. And but I recognize that's the way he is. Why do you think I got these new boobs, you know, for him. He loves them. And your more closed-minded women will listen to them and be like, uh, you went under surgery for your husband? You did that for your husband? You wear those kind of clothes for your husband? You wear— I would never do that. You alluded to this in previous podcasts where some women were like, oral sex? I would never do that. Very closed-minded, very anti-sexual, very I'm doing this to please him. Why the hell would I do that?

Yeah, but I think that, that goes back to the respect for one another and the, the kindness that you show one another when you really truly love each other. You— what you want to do in a relationship is you want to make the other person happy, and you want to make sure the other person feels accepted and safe in the relationship. And if a big aspect of the other person's happiness and well-being is sex then I think it's part of what you do as a loving partner is to say, yes, if you— that's what you love, then I'm gonna love it too. I'm not, not going to shame you or belittle you for it. That's just who you are and that's what you want to do. And just like I like my, I don't know, my artsy stuff, and I like going to independent foreign movies, and you go with me.

And yeah, but what it sounds like though, I may not like it. A lot of people would hear that and interpret that as she's really not into it at all and she could take it or leave In fact, you prefer not to have it at all. But the fact that you want it, all right, I guess I'll do it.

Yeah, but you know, it's the same thing. I make you go watch French movies and you're like, ugh, I guess I'll do it for you. But you don't know, you might like the French movies. I think that as much as women have to accept that men are extremely sexual, I think men have to accept that women not necessarily always are. We are often in the beginning, But then hormonal changes happen, life changes happen, and then, as you said, the, just the habit of being with a, with a man for longer periods of time, um, happens. And a lot of women lose a part of their libido or lose a part of their wild child when it comes to sex. And I think both sides have to accept that there are just differences in how we are in our sexuality. And, and rather than upset, being sad about it and hurt by it and making it about you. You should just accept, well, she's just not that into it anymore, but she loves me and I'm still always into it all the time and I love her. Um, and you have to focus on this love part, not so much on the boo-boo. I want her to be hot for me 24/7 like she used to be. Why can't she be like that, man? And stop feed. What does that do? It's a narcissistic—

the danger of what you're getting into though is the, the higher— I'm trying to think of the best way to put this— your dreamboat man that every woman wants. Picture him in your mind, list off the qualities. Women, by the way, those qualities would be— you would have, you know, if I polled 100 women, the qualities would have to be more in common than they are different. Different. There's almost like a universal— we all know what that high-quality dude is in our mind. It's subjective in nature, but okay. The more the guy inches closer to that and checks more boxes, the more apt that man is going to be to not settle for a woman who tells him, I know it's important to you, so that's why I do it. Oof, that makes a man go Ouch. I was actually kind of hoping you wanted to do it because you wanted to do it. I was actually kind of hoping you were into that because you felt the same kind of urges and overwhelming desire that I feel, at least to some degree. To hear, it's important to you, that's why I do it, I love you. You, to your woman, like, well, that sounds great. To us, it's like, well, it's certainly not the old her anymore, is it? And that's kind of heartbreaking.

I don't know. Well, again, that— this is your perspective, because from the woman's perspective, it's not at all. Because we're saying we do all this because we are happy in this relationship. If, if I really didn't care, I'd be like, go fuck it, do whatever you want, go masturbate, I don't have sex with you. So I think the, um, the fact that the woman says, yes, I may not be into it at all right now because I just had a human baby being expelled from my body, and that being is sucking on my nipples a lot, and I don't want you to touch those, but I still will do it because I love you and I understand that this is a need in our relationship, so I'm doing it. And then while we're doing it, I'm actually enjoying this. Um, what is wrong with that? But I understand where you're coming from.

That second part is where you redeemed yourself, because the last thing the man wants to do is be like, isn't this great?

Well, you don't want to just be a—

and look at You look down at a wife who's staring at the wall, just going like, I got laundry to do and, uh, the cat boxes need to be cleaned. Man's like, you all right down there? And she's like, no, no, it's good, it's fine, just do your thing. The higher— yeah, the higher value your man is, the more apt he's going to be like, this is just not good, I feel— no, I feel really weird about this. The lower value man will be like, okay, great, stare at the wall all you want, flam flam flam.

No, no, you have to make an actual effort. You can't just say, I'm gonna check this box. I'm gonna lay here and spread my legs. No, that's not how that works. No, no, it's like make an actual effort to have fun while you're having sex. Like, this is not about— and because that's horrible. You're not having sex with your man for your man. That's like the most anti-woman thing ever.

Builds that resentment because the woman's like, can't he see?

And then she eventually feels like she's being raped because that's what it's actually going to go down to. Yes.

No, this is about Well, and no man wants to do that. But, you know, women with your language of, um, I do it because I know he wants to, you're inching towards that. You're turned around and you're starting to walk towards that line. And the— you're— again, the more high-value man is going to be like, sweetheart, I don't want to just because you think you have to. I want because you want to. And if you don't want to, that's cool.

I'm going to get it elsewhere.

That— I was just going to say, that's cool. But that cool relatively quickly turns into Sally at work sure wants to, and that chick that I used to know 18 years ago sure wanted to. I wonder what she's up to. And it goes— the brain goes elsewhere, and you're thinking, I'm willing to work, I'm willing to do this, I'm willing to do that. Is that urge and that desire that much important to you? It is. Um, and again, don't, don't narrow this down to or simplify this in terms of he just wants to orgasm, or he just wants to bang somebody, that validation— again, there's nothing more appealing to a man than, I drive this woman crazy. Nothing. We're wired for that. That's what we're made for. When we see that, there's no going back. You cannot go back. And in fact, I told you that when we were talking about having a child. Just so you know, I can't go back to that old bullshit the way the old marriage was, where it's just we live day to day. I can't. I just can't do it. I've seen the light, you know. I can't go back there. So for a person like me and guys like me to get a glimpse of that old, even if it's a minute grain of sand piece of that other life, it just triggers memories. It just makes us go, fuck, what did I do? Just makes us say, Jesus. What have I done? That was stupid. Everybody was right. Dude, why get married? Dude, another kid? What are you doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so it's tough. It's a tough little balancing game. And, uh, I'm not going to be one of those guys that'd be like, you better do it or else. If I ever get the sense from you like you really just flat out do not want to and you just would rather have a root canal than do that, I think I would tell you if I'd rather have a root canal. But if you are in the position where it's, I love this guy so much, he's so good, look at what all he does for me and for us, and he sacrifices so much, and he's such a good person, and da da da da, but I genuinely flat out do not want to do this for whatever reason, physiologically, mentally, whatever, my body and brain are right now screaming, this is the last thing you want to do right now. It's almost like I don't know, picture the worst possible horrible thing imaginable. I would much rather do that than this for whatever reason, hormonally, whatever. If we get a glimpse of that, uh-oh, a healthy man would be like, uh-oh, this is no bueno. And I would be in that camp and I'd be like, you better figure this shit out fast or else it's been nice knowing you. That— I think that's— women innately know that, and that's kind of scary. I think the biggest fear for a lot of women that I've heard is, uh, once I pump out a kid, this guy's not going to want me anymore. Biggest fear for a man is once she pumps out a kid, she's not going to want me anymore.

And that's, that's my point. My point is we're getting a lot into the negatives here. We're talking about, oh man, you know, she doesn't want me, and 'Oh, I'm so fat now that I had a kid.' Like, we're talking about all this negative stuff that comes with having a child and how both sides get bitter and grow apart over that because you just go in their corner and sulk. You need to focus on what, what connects us at this point. What's connecting us is that we're both sad in some ways. It's just easier for the woman to distract herself because she has this little baby that's dependent on her. The baby's kind of cute, she gets attention for it. So it's easier for us to just ignore our bodies and, and just ignore how we feel about our marriage and just focus completely on the baby. But you guys don't have that. You, you can dive into your work, and a lot of guys do that when the baby's there, but all that that leads to is growing further apart.

Let me, let me play devil's advocate or, or defend the male perspective on this. Your fear, wife, is that you will— your body and everything will change to to the point where I, man, no longer want you. That's your fear, right? Yes.

I actually don't fear that.

No, most women would say that's a big fear, that he's— I'm just going to be this gross blob of a woman and he's just gonna go, I don't want to be with this person anymore, and he's going to run off with some floozy or whatever.

Well, I don't fear that because it's in my control what my body does, and I can go to the gym and work out and be sexy.

I was gonna say, for most men I talk to who are the exception in a lot of ways. But for most men I talk to, they will say, dude, I have campaigned to convince this woman otherwise. Campaign. I have told her, you look so good, you look so sexy, can you hear some lingerie I bought you? And why? Because I think you're awesome. Remember, you used to wear this stuff. And she's like, fuck no, I'm— that is not me anymore. And he's like, goddamn it. So in one fell swoop Her fear, which he tries to mitigate and alleviate by virtue of his actions— nope, can't overcome it. But in doing so, his fear is quickly, uh, what's the term, self-fulfilling prophecy. His fear is fulfilled. It's acknowledged. His fear is, um, yeah, wow, my fear was right all along. So Right back to woman with your self-negative talk. I can't do this and that. You're— I don't real— I don't think women realize just how impactful that is and what a self-fulfilling prophecy that is and how a lot of men go, here we go, fuck, nice, one of the myriad of men that got caught in that trap. God damn it. Um, when so easily and so quickly both sides could just take a little bitty actions that make you go, nope, That's not us.

That's not the road we're going down on. Yeah, I think— and the biggest point is that very early on, before any of that new baby stuff settles into a new habit, a new dynamic, you have to very early on bring the, the fun back. You, you have that baby, you recover from whatever birth experience you had to go through, like in our case where I had a week of preeclampsia to deal with, another hospitalization, and C-section to recover from. So you get through all of that, but then as soon as you can, as soon as you feel like going out, you go out. You remind each other that you're— and you could dress up. You don't just go out to the McDonald's around the corner in your drive-through in your jammies. No, you, you actually try to make an effort and go out. And I remember the first date that we had when we went to the beer garden in our town. I put on a dress and I looked in the mirror and I was like, oh, holy crap. This is not fitting, and oh my gosh, I don't feel good. But as soon as I walked out there with you and I walked around, I felt so wanted, and I felt loved, and I felt excited, and I felt happy that I somehow still fit in the dress 4 weeks after giving birth. And you said that I looked good, and it just brought all the magic back for the couple hours that we were out. And I think that's the— that's a big part, is that you have to bring that back before you can settle too much into the new parenting dynamic and remind each other very early on that, no, we are still the couple here that made this human, and we are always going to be that couple no matter what happens. And you have to focus on all the positive things right away. You immediately have to focus on, okay, we're going to get back to healthy eating, we're going to get back to good healthy habits. Me time is a thing that the dad gets his me time. The woman should take her me time. Both of them should do stuff that's just for them, to make them feel like a man and feel like a woman. And then you focus on doing sexy things. And yes, if it is scheduled, I don't think that's bad in the beginning. At least it brings it back into your sex. Not even just sex, just like schedule your you time, time to be sexy or talk about it. Or yeah, exactly. I think it's important and it I don't know. Yes, you might feel that that's not spontaneous and that's not wild and it's not how it used to be, but that's the only way you can even get in that mindset of being still a couple. And then eventually, I think the spontaneous stuff comes back on its own.

You know, um, I agree with all that 1,000%, but there's some people listening to that that just go, holy shit, that sounds like a lot of work.

Well, it is.

That sounds exhausting.

It is. And if you have 2 or 3 kids or 4 and no money for babysitters and nannies, it's even more exhausting.

Much like every other aspects of life, whether it's, I don't know, wealth, fitness, whatever it may be, all those things take work, and not everybody's cut out for it. Mm, keep coming back to this little philosophy of mine of, if you guys are hearing this and saying, that ain't me, is that a bad thing? No, that ain't you. Maybe it's not you right now in your life. Maybe you're a 25-year-old listening to this going, fuck that nonsense, I'm not doing that, I'm banging whores left and right, I'm still 25. Good, keep at it, dude. Maybe when you're 35 your tone will change and then you're ready to, quote, settle down and do the work necessary to keep a one-on-one relationship going. But this is the kind of shit, and this is what it takes. Anybody telling you otherwise is blowing smoke up your ass.

This is serious adult stuff.

This is serious adult stuff. It ain't all rainbows and sunshine. It takes effort. It is rainbows and sunshine, but the fruit of your efforts is the rainbows and sunshine. But there's a little bit of going against the grain sometimes, fighting those natural instincts of, yeah, fuck it, and saying no, this is worth it. And what keeps that "this is worth it" going is seeing the actions of the other person. It sounds kind of silly and simplistic, but I see how hard you work. And, you know, I'm thinking of— I was telling somebody else this story the other day on a one-on-one chat that years ago when we were in Maine and you were on call and I flew to see you in Maine, and I get there and you're like, "I have to go to the hospital. It'll be a while." And I was like, well, I don't have any work to do right at this moment. I'm just going to sit and relax. What, watch some Netflix for the next few hours, or what can I do here? And I just sat there, and then I looked at, um, you had a giant pile of clothes that you had just washed that were sitting there. And I remember asking you before, what's with the pile of clothes? And you said, I need to iron all those. And I was like, uh, all right. And then I just sat and looked at that pile of clothes. And I said, what kind of a dickhead would I be to sit here and just stare at this pile of clothes that she needs to do while she's off working hard and I'm sitting there Netflixing the night away? Wouldn't it be nice? Because I know she would probably do the same thing. There's key. I know she would probably do the same thing, and I've seen that same level of effort from her over the years. Oh, iron the clothes? What the fuck? It's not that hard. Ironing clothes. It's not a difficult job.

Oh my God, it's annoying.

So I spent the next hour or two just sitting there. You had like a pile of whites and just iron, iron, iron, fold, iron, iron while I'm watching my Netflix. You know, get to one. It's not the manliest thing in the world to do. It's not the most rewarding thing to do, but it's one of those little things that you just do because I'm— it's almost keeping up with the Joneses here.

Did I come home and put out at least?

I believe you did. It was early on, so obviously, yeah. I could sneeze and you'd put out. But, um, so yeah, you and you were super— oh my gosh, did you just fold all the shirts? Yep. And ironed? Oh my God, thank you so much. Yeah, why? What kind of dickhead would I be to not do that? Of course I did that based on everything else you've done. And that's just the tone we set early on. This is what you do. Keeping up with the Joneses. You work hard, I work hard.

But, but see, part of me could have said I want you to iron the clothes because you want to iron the clothes. I didn't want you to iron the clothes just for me because you know you knew I wanted you to do that.

Well, that's a different thing. No, I don't have a visceral urge to iron clothes. I don't wake up with a laundry erection every morning. That'd be weird if I did. Not that there's anything wrong. If any of you are aroused by apparel, please come here and help. That's fine, you do what you do, but whatever floats your boat. But no, that's not an apples-to-apples comparison whatsoever. I see you thought you were clever there, but that's completely off base.

Damn it.

Now we're hoping that you have the visceral, oh my God, I gotta have this woman just like us. The tit for tat, the quid pro quo thing applies to a lot in life. And yeah, it does apply a little bit to the the making effort towards staying connected, that's for sure.

Yes, and it's— it has to go both ways. That's another big key is, um, you did that because you knew I would do the same. Um, but if one person always keeps giving in the hope that maybe the other person will appreciate it and pay them back, that— that's not how that works. It has to be kind of a natural back and forth. There's always going to be that element there of But one gives more for a while.

Well, no, but I was going to say that nothing people do is 100% altruistic. Mother Teresa did what she did because she thought she would get into heaven. She thought that she would go and Jesus would say, good job, Teresa, that was pretty awesome what you did with all those orphans and everything else. If she had a vision one night and Jesus said to her, by the way, the orphan thing, I don't really give a fuck, she'd be like, well, orphans, time to hit the streets. That's simplistic and maybe a little offensive to some, but that's human nature. We do things that are nice and good for others because why? There's some endgame at play here. We all function better as a society. My spouse will be happy. Whatever it may be, we all do it for a reason. I think a lot of you people are falling asleep at the wheel, particularly you women. I'm gonna pick on you women. You don't really appreciate very much what your guy does for you, and you see a lot of what he does is a pain in the ass and not worthy of you putting in any effort. And then you fall into the victim trap and you get on the social media and you have 1,000 people saying, you go girl for drinking 2 bottles of wine.

And the mother martyrdom.

The mother martyrdom is a huge thing.

My gosh. I remember being freshly out of the birthing experience and just so tired and that's all you do. You know, you have the sleeping infant on you and you're You can't really sleep because you're holding the baby, and but you're tired, so you can't think straight. So you just go on social media and scroll and scroll and scroll, and before you know it, you're reading all these affirmative messages of, ah, being the mom is the hardest job in the world, there's nothing more difficult. And, and yes, it's true, it's difficult, but oh man, there are way harder jobs out there. It's not that— and you love this little being, so it's— and you chose to do all this. So they get off that martyrdom train.

And the comedian Bill Burr had a bit about women. Oprah one time said the hardest job in the world is being a stay-at-home mother. And he was like, really? Seriously? He said, you know, I've, I've done roofing work in the middle of August as a redhead. That was way tougher. He goes, than changing the DVDs in the DVD player for your kids and making the macaroni and cheese.

And yeah, and as a matter of fact, people and I mentioned this to you, people right now keep telling me, oh my God, this is the hardest time that you've ever have to go through in your life, and you'll— it'll be so much better. And I look at them like, what are you talking about? This is not the hardest time. Fellowship was the hardest time in my life. So I think it's all relative. To some people, parenting may be the toughest that they'll ever experience, and parenting is difficult, somewhat mentally exhausting. Yes.

And there is an annoying monotony to it, and there's Boring, yes, but there's a lot of time, there's a lot of rewarding stuff to it, but there's elements of just this, this, you know, lying with your kid while they're playing with blocks on the floor and stuff. You're like, I love it, I love this child, I would murder for this child, this thing is the best thing on the planet Earth. But no, this is not the most stimulating thing on the planet, and I can't imagine doing this 8 hours a day every day. Jesus, that would drive me nuts. So in terms of that, that's quote hard to put up with, and it's mentally exhausting. And we know a lot of women that go into a, uh, who am I, what am I, what's, what's my role in this world, this is who I— this is who all I am, I'm just little Billy's mom from now on, I'm not me, who am I, I've lost my sense of identity. So there's that rolled into all of that as well.

Yes, but that's the thing, every job is hard, and the mother job is not standing out as being harder than than anything else. It's just hard. And but there's just this whole culture around martyrdom in, in motherhood that really bothers me because it just reaffirms all these negative— this negative self-talk that women have of, yeah, I'm, I'm like this, but this— I'm sacrificing so much, so it's okay to be a little obese and it's okay to be drinking wine every night. No, it's not necessarily okay. And No, you should try to work on doing better and being happier. It's not so much try to work on being skinny, try to work on skipping the alcohol. It's, it's the whole point of try to work on being a happy human outside of your motherhood experience, because you're more than just a mom. You, you're, but you're a wife, you're a woman.

But corresponding to that is that if you want— we have determined scientifically, if you want to be a happy human, it's You have to take care of yourself physically. Sleep right, correct, right?

Yes.

So it's all kind of hand in hand with that. They go exercise, move your body and everything.

Yeah, but a lot of women interpret that as, oh my god, another thing I have to do. But the endgame is, no, you're— this is for you. You don't have to do this for anybody but you. But it's just really hard.

And I will— I can't emphasize enough, ladies, no one is asking you to be perfect. You know, I saw the meme on the internet of of one side was a woman crying, staring at a picture of a bikini model, saying, this is not fair, this is an unhealthy stereotype, and this is thrust upon women, and this is why we all hate ourselves, and blah blah blah. And then on the other side was a man staring at a bodybuilder saying, damn, I need to go to the gym. See the difference?

Yeah.

One is, that motivates me to get myself better, I see my faults. And the other one's like, I can't believe you've exposed my faults. How dare you? Yeah, one's a loser mentality, one's a winner mentality. We could say it's men. It's not a man-woman thing. It's a loser-winner thing. And you women need to wake the fuck up and cut it out with a lot of this loser stuff. All right, we've gone from sex after baby to shitting all over women. But it's all connected, right?

No, well, then I'm here and I'm hearing all this and I'm trying to defend us. But, and I'm coming, you know, I'm sitting on a high horse being able to afford a personal trainer and doing things that other people maybe may not be able to do. And I have the educational background to understand that eating healthy and all that is really important. A lot of people didn't grow up culturally in eating healthy environments and in environments where fast food was not normalized. So it's maybe not very compassionate on my end at all times. But I think there is too much in this culture of, yes, all of your negative talk, that's the right thing to do. There has to be more shaking the women and saying, girl, you need to stop bitching about it and just get better. And if you need to get a coach to get better, then just get a coach. But, but stop whining about it. Stop being a martyr. Stop saying, hey, I have 20 kids to drive around all day long. This is not all that defines you, and you still chose it. You didn't have to have all those kids. So I think there is, there is a very big important part that we keep ignoring about our marriage that is having sex and being intimate and making an effort to be sexy and stay— have fun in the relationship. It's about having fun with each other. And I think that's just really, really forgotten and put aside. And I think it's important that we try to stay sexy after the baby. And a part of that, for me, a big part of that is to get back into my body. Like, I'm very excited about losing weight, eating healthy, being active, and losing that weight and getting into a shape that I like. It's not the shape I had before the baby, but I like the new shape, and I like finding new outfits and being sexy and flaunting it and showing people, hey, look how I look after baby, and, um, seeing your response to it and all that. I think that's all exciting. That's how I look at it. I try to look at it as a positive thing. It's a new me.

It's so easy to slip into the other. That goes for everything. Yeah, I'm a new business owner. I could easily slip into, Jesus, what the hell are you doing, dude? Just go get a job. You're gonna fail. 80% of these things fail. Jesus Christ. Oh, that could easily slip into that. And then next thing you know, this thing fails, and it's self-fulfilling prophecy. You women doing this, it's just— can't very quickly become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The next thing you know, you are in fact 250 pounds, and yeah, your husband does in fact want nothing to do with you anymore, and in fact he is banging the secretary. Well, what do you expect? Kind of thing.

It's kind of like a choose your ending story.

Choose your adventure.

Yes, exactly.

Well, we've gone— like I said, it's getting late. We've been at this for quite a while. This is a long one.

Oh, is it 11:45?

Yep, we've been at this for a while.

Holy crap.

We did have to take a cut there. I don't know if you're going to know told us listeners we had to take a cut there for a screaming child. How apropos. Um, so how to end this? Sex.

Let's have sex.

What?

Let's have sex.

Now?

Well, I mean, we have 15 minutes to midnight.

Not appropriate on microphone. Well, folks, that's my cue. I'm no dummy. Um, dadstartingover.com, please check it out. Oh, and also, I mentioned Dr. Psych Mom earlier. Um, she and I are going to a Q&A for 90 minutes on May 19th, if I remember right, which is a Thursday from 6:30 to 8:30— or 6:30 to 8:00 PM Eastern Time, May 19th. Go to the website at dadstartingover.com, scroll down, you'll see a link to that Zoom event you can sign up for and register. There's also a link to the DSO fraternity, our members-only group. Live member meetings, discussion groups, members-only podcasts, member articles, discounts on coaching, access to the DSO books, and access to our live in-person meetings which we have coming up in Austin, Austin, Texas. BroFest. You can join that too online. You can join us online via Zoom and catch all the action live streaming and access the recordings. We have presentations going on live in person there. Dr. Robert Glover from No More Mr. Nice Guy will be there. G.S. Youngblood, uh, Christy Vaccaro from Fit LV will be there to talk about fitness. All the DSO team, DSO fraternity members. It's going to be awesome. Awesome. So join us, dadstartingover.com. All right guys, thanks for listening. Have a good one.