My Interview With Youtuber Schahrzad Morgan

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All right. Well, uh, thank you, DSO, for agreeing to be interviewed on my YouTube channel. I, I I watch your videos. I have read your book, The Dead Bedroom Fix. And as a woman, I was really interested in that book because when I was married, there were many times I didn't feel attracted to my husband and I couldn't figure out why. So as a woman reading that book, it was like really great to hear a man say, this is what a man should be like for a woman to be attracted to him. So I really appreciated —Well, thank you. —And now that I've been single so long, I also have noticed that there is this crisis in masculinity that people are talking about, where a lot of men feel like they're toxic just for existing, which is totally false. And a lot of us women, we crave, you know, the masculine energy. So I wanted to, you know, kind of hear, like, your take on it from working with men. And why people pleasing is a turnoff to women and just to encourage men to be masculine, that we want that. And for women also to hear like, oh, this is why we feel attracted or not attracted. And specifically what happened is I went on a date recently with someone and I had difficulty feeling attracted to him even though he was very good looking and he was so interesting and very good communicator. And after our first date, I thought, this is such a great prospect. But on our second date, I have to figure out if I can feel attracted to him. He took me out to a nice restaurant. And afterward, when he wanted— asked if he could kiss me, which, by the way, is not a turnoff, I didn't feel like it. And I was puzzling over why. And I noticed that he— I noticed that there was some people pleasing and disowning of his sexuality, that he admitted that he is like a people pleaser and that, um, he doesn't want to objectify women. So, um, it wasn't that he had to talk about sexual things, but I just didn't feel— I didn't feel— it's like very subconscious, you know, um, that he was looking for approval, just slightly, like smiling too much or smiling at the waitress and Like, if I can't feel your boundaries, how can I feel safe with you? If you're— the whole thing was very puzzling to me why I couldn't feel attracted to this really great looking guy.

Interesting. So in a nutshell, is it safe to say, not to put words in your mouth, that he was acting in a very not masculine way?

In, in some slight way, yeah. He wasn't super bad because if they're like people pleasers, I feel immediately to repulse. It was very subtle. Yes, he wasn't acting enough in a masculine way.

Yes. Do you believe that he is, uh, illustrative of a larger problem where men like him have, have been told you need to swing the pendulum way over this way to a people pleaser, dare we say feminine kind of energy? And therefore, and he's going to get what you've experienced. And he's going to have subsequent dates, and he's going to probably experience what he experienced with you through the majority of them, which is, this is— I don't know what it is about this, but this guy is just— and he's going to be one in the long line of these army of these nice guy types, as they call it. Dr. Robert Glover wrote about it in his book No More Mr. Nice Guy, which is basically a codependent type, very few boundaries. Um, he's going to be in this long army of this growing army of men who say 'Women all say they want fill in the blank, but as soon as I give it to them, nobody wants me. This is just— it's baffling to men.' And I think you would agree they got a point, don't they? Where society says, 'You need to cool it, buddy. You need to be a little nicer, you know, softer, more empathetic. You need to, you know, tone down Mr. Stoic Masculine Guy.' And even some even go as far as to say, the more you crank up the masculinity, which by the way is a very vague term, could mean a bazillion different things. The more you crank up the masculinity, it actually, it's frightening. And it's very off-putting. And we don't feel quote safe around you. So you need to chill out, mister, and go the other direction with this. And I think your buddy, though your buddy, that's probably a good term. Your ex-date there was the perfect illustration of somebody who took that to heart. And said, "You got it, society, watch this," and he's gonna get nothing out of it in the dating world.

Yes, I think there is a lot of messaging for men that their masculinity is dangerous or toxic from the Me Too movement, and men are really confused. But also, I do, you know, I talk to a lot of men, and I had a conversation with someone else who got out of a 20-year marriage where he was a people pleaser, And I said, let me guess, because I had talked to him about my Bumble date. I said, let me guess, was your wife really controlling? Because I was thinking, who would be attracted to a people pleaser? And he goes, oh yeah, so controlling. She was so controlling that I eventually had to end this relationship because I didn't want my kids to see this as how a man would be treated. So my theory is, and you would know better than me, is that these people pleaser types, you know, what kind of woman is going to be attracted? Is it people, a controlling woman? A domineering woman who, and that's different from submissive where, I don't know, like some power exchange where everybody's in their own power, but the people pleaser's gonna get the dominating, controlling woman who just beats him down. And part of it, even a normal woman like me might do it 'cause I was kind of annoyed with this guy. I found a little bit of anger in myself. Like, I wanna feel your boundaries. Where are they? I was a slight bit angry with him. He was not genuine, was he?

Because, uh, who is— who can be genuine and have so few boundaries like that where you feel that they are so pliable that you could, you could just with your words probably swing the, the— his, his, uh, his opinions on, you know, whatever topic. A lot of people who sit down with somebody who has no boundaries, um, you know, you sit down with a guy and he says, I, I like motorcycles. And the woman says, I actually think motorcycles are kind of stupid. And instead of saying, well, that's your opinion, I've been riding Harleys for 20 years, I think they're awesome— boundaries. He's got an opinion, respectful. The Mr. Boundaryless Nice Guy says, well, maybe you have a point. My mom does say, you know, that motorcycles are going to kill me one day. Maybe I should, you know, maybe one day I'll stop it. Maybe I'll go into something like, you know, bicycles instead. And the woman's like, uh, what the— that's all it took? And he just threw his hobby under the bus for me, just this woman he just met. And so yeah, he's literally adjusting himself and being, uh, insincere, no boundaries, just for a gal that he's known for a matter of hours. And that's— something's off there. And maybe your, your aversion, your, your, uh, what's the word, your repulsion— is that a word? You were repulsed by the guy. And maybe that's a very innate, natural reaction to something is wrong here. And something is off. And ironically, maybe something is dangerous about a fake person like this who has no boundary, who is putting on a show like this. If he was genuine, even if he was a little bit of an asshole but genuine about it, it would actually put me at ease. I would know who I'm dealing with here. This is uncertain. This isn't right. This is people pleasing. This is fake. This is— this is kind of scary and it's kind of yuck.

I don't like this. And what's interesting, because he has done so much therapy and he's pretty self-aware, that he and I had a little bit of a conversation about it. And so I don't think that he knows. I don't, I don't think— well, what I told him when I didn't want to kiss him was, all I need is you to just turn up the volume on your masculinity or on your sexuality. Just own it. Just turn up the volume. I don't need— I'm not trying to change you. Because he was like, I, I, I'm not going to change. I think he got to this part in therapy where he wasn't going to change. So afterward, I texted him a few things. I texted I sent him the book No More Mr. Nice Guy and that he needs to own his sexual energy. And he got back to me and said he appreciated all my input. He looked at all these resources I sent him and that it seemed like I wanted him to change and something that he wasn't willing to accommodate. So I was proud of him for that. And I said, thank you for sharing your boundary. But I found it interesting that he didn't want to— I guess there are men who are like, I'm very comfortable the way I am. And I don't want to be more masculine. I don't want to own my sexuality. I don't want to— I don't want to change. I found that interesting.

Yeah, if he doesn't want to be hyper-masculine, alpha male, machine gun tattoo bodybuilder, screw 20 women in a week type of guy, then, you know, amen, whatever, dude, you know, whatever floats your boat, that's fine. But he has to recognize that some of his behaviors, what you call people pleasing, codependent, boundaryless, nice guy behavior, is going to get his ass into trouble, like a lot of trouble. And you pointed it out. He was, he was the one who said he used to be with Miss Controlling, is that right? Or was that another person?

He used to be angry with women and objectify women and watch a lot of porn when he was younger. So he had a lot of anger. And so he worked through that to the point he doesn't have anger. He actually likes women and respects women. But his respect has gone so far that he has disowned his sexuality and also not having had a male role model. I think growing up is also an issue for a lot of men, including him. That, but also that, yeah, like they're not comfortable with their strength, their aggression, their, their power. And he isn't the only one. Like, it's a thing going around in society. It's a thing.

It's a thing for sure. Um, I actually brought up on my screen over here, I was going to read it to you because this falls in line perfectly with what we're talking about. There is a gal that I, I follow on Twitter, and her name is— I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right— Ayela A-E-L-L-A. She is a sex worker and she is a blogger, writer, very active on social media, very intelligent, really good stuff. And I believe, if I remember from her stuff, she, uh, she admits to also being on the autism spectrum. So she has a very unique, very technical, analytical view of relationships and sexuality, and she posts her thoughts and she does a lot of surveys. Very cool stuff. And somebody put on Twitter that she's— this woman, another woman named Ashley, put, "Fact: women do not want to be, quote, 'eye candy' and have weird creeps, quote, slip them their number while trying to go out and grab food with friends." In other words, men stay away, I don't want to be hit on. And Ayela, to her credit, says, "I kind of suspect that women going, quote, 'Men, don't you dare fucking approach us, don't soil our presence by forcing us to tolerate your interest' end quote, is kind of a gigantic cultural shit test, as she puts it, to weed out the men passive enough to obey them. Oh, that's good. Only the dominant pass the test and thus get laid. And I replied to her and said, bingo. Um, this— it's kind of a conspiratorial— that's a very masculine point of view. That's a very analytical point of view. On the autism spectrum. I can see where this would go along with that, where she sits back and studies this and said, all these women say, don't you dare approach me. You know, men slunk their shoulders and walk away and say, fine, sorry, I, I don't want to offend, you know, the divine feminine here. And the ones that are left are like, hey, you're pretty, what's your name? Who is going to have luck and who's going to be seen as being genuine and who's going to be seen as being masculine, if you want to use that term, or unattractive? It's a guy who's not afraid. Because what's the worst case scenario? The woman says, buzz off, creep. He just goes, all right, nice seeing you, have— enjoy your lunch, and goes about his way. But the men that are scared to death and I, I would never— your friend there that you had dinner with, he's going to be the type that's probably, I would never approach a woman in that way. And, um, he was in fact on— did you say Bumble? Yes. And is Bumble not in fact— is their whole brand The women are the ones who are— correct me if I'm wrong— on Bumble, the women take the initiative, is that right? They're the ones that reach out and say, I'm interested, man, and then the connection can be made, not vice versa? Well, we have to match.

Once a match is made, the woman has to initiate the message. But as a woman, I have met some other masculine men on there. I like Bumble as a woman. I like Bumble because I don't get all these likes and I only have to look at each guy's face once and then I can swipe him away rather than on like on Match or something where I keep having to see these same faces over and over and over. So I like it. And it's not a hookup app like Tinder. The men are very respectful. So I like it. But yes, the woman has to initiate the conversation. But I've also met guys on there who cancel dates and didn't reply to me.

Yeah, but I, I would see where a man listening to you though would say there, there was a mixed message right there. Um, you had the date with this man who you met on Bumble, and he was unfortunately not as masculine and, um, I was inconfident and he had no boundaries and so forth. But yet you met him on an app that was tailored for, dare I say, men who were less extroverted. They're, they're less— they're more submissive. They're more, I'll sit back and wait, let's, let's let the lady take the initiative here. So I think your chances of finding a guy like that, without knowing the stats, without— with my inclination is that you will probably find more men like that versus men on Tinder and all the others that you said. So, but to your, your point, yeah, but there's so many assholes on Tinder and there's so many creeps and there's so many— it's just such a meat market. I don't like that. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. I'm on Bumble.

I'm gonna disagree with you because a lot of the guys on Tinder and the other sites are not masculine either because they have no direction, or they don't know— they don't have a professional demeanor, and they slide into, you know, they send likes and they're not intentional. And, um, so I don't I haven't found— I haven't experienced that the men on Bumble are like submissive. In fact, there was another guy I met on Bumble and I like the young ones. He was just a Marine in his 20s. And I always start out like, hey, let's call him Tommy. Hi, Tommy. It's a pleasure meeting you. You know, I say that and then he says, hi, darling. Now, I don't like guys to call me darling or babe or hun or whatever. I don't like that. So I said, Don't call him— I'm not your darling. That's very disrespectful. I was about to unmatch him when he writes me back and he goes, that's how I talk, I'm from North Carolina. And I like that. But he had a very good profile. He wasn't smiling in every photo, like he was very masculine. There are a lot of really masculine guys on there too. But the guy that I had gone out with, every one of his photos he was smiling, but not laughing because he was happy, but this you know, smile. So I'm gonna— I'm gonna defend Bumble. I'm not quite ready to throw Bumble under the bus, um, but I get very annoyed on other sites because I get so many likes that I don't want— I don't want to see all these likes. And in Bumble, they go into a separate place. And then also, I don't like, um, seeing the same faces over and over and over. And Tinder is just The men on Tinder are very rude. They just want to hook up.

So Bumble gives you enough of an obstacle or a barrier there to make it a little bit more comfortable for you. But you pointed out, once those guys get past that barrier and you allow them into your sphere and you say, all right, dude, Tommy, let's see what you got. And you, I don't know if you're cognizant of that, what you just did there was you threw what men call a quote, shit test. Or a fitness test, if you want to call it, the man. Hey, dickhead, don't call me darling. And instead of him going, oh hey, sorry about that, my bad, what should I call you? Is it— instead he's like, that's what I do. And you went, test passed, hot damn, I like this guy. Yeah, I personally like that game, that give and take, and I think it's kind of funny and I laugh it off. And but there are a lot of men that are like Goddammit, that's— that is Exhibit A for just some of the games we have to deal with, the mixed messages we have to deal with. I'm trying to be, you know, uh, uh, respectful, and I've dropped my whole darling sweetie vernacular that I used to use for years because I'm trying to be softer and nicer. And, uh, here I am hearing a lady saying, no dummy, you weren't supposed to do that, you were supposed to go ahead and do it anyway and then show me that you're a real genuine man and that you're masculine. And I was supposed to say There you go. I like it. So it's very— it's wishy-washy. It's kind of— it's, it's very confusing. And, uh, when, when you combine that confusingness, which dare I say is just human nature— I'm not, by the way, badmouthing in any way. You've done a very feminine thing, and to me, a very attractive thing. The game— I like the, you know, the give and take, the push and pull. Um, but in today's day and age, if you layer on top of that shame. I'm supposed to be less masculine. I'm supposed to turn these knobs down. To hear the opposite message coming from a woman just sends men into chaos, and a lot of men just go, I'm out. And I see these men in my video comments and so forth, so many men just checking out of the game completely because of this— what they see is this mixed messaging.

And, uh, well, I really didn't like him calling me darling, but when he said he was from North Carolina, then it made sense, and I said lol, okay. But if he— I don't like guys just calling me hun or dear or babe or hey beautiful. It's a turnoff. That's how fuckboys talk. So he was able to do it because, you know, in his main pictures wearing a cowboy hat and he's in his truck, he looks very masculine. I'm like, oh, he's from North Carolina. That makes sense. But I think the— I was talking to my personal trainer about this. And he, he was telling me that when he tells— gives women a boundary, like they get more turned on. He's noticed that because he's also a former people pleaser. And so we talk about this stuff, and, you know, he had a recent experience where a woman said, oh, I want you to take me to this vacation. And he goes, I don't take women, you know, I'm, I'm not going to do that. And she got really more turned on. So, um, it's not confusing. You know what I always tell guys is that I think that men get turned on when they see their wife come out of the shower, but we get turned on by feeling your boundary. And even when I was married, I would notice, you know, like if I said to my husband, he would— he never went shopping with me, which is great. But one time I tested him like, hey, you want to go shopping with me? He's like, no, I don't go shopping. So to me as a woman, like, that's a turn-on. Every time— see, with this cowboy, I wasn't testing him. I really didn't like it. But sometimes I'm consciously testing. And the testing is to us Like it creates a security, like it's a turn-on. It's the same as your wife walking around in a little nightie or something. To us, it's a turn-on to know that you have a boundary. But my trainer was also saying that he doesn't trust women who are people pleasers. He doesn't trust them. So it could also be a trust thing. You know, if you don't have any boundaries, how can I trust you? Like, you could go off on me. You could not protect me. It's this instinctive thing that we have.

Yep. Ah, I agree. And, um, you just said a mouthful right there with the, if you don't have boundaries, how can I trust you? Um, and you know, let's kind of dig into that a little further. What does that mean? Um, if you don't have boundaries and you just let anything and everything in, so to speak, and there's no delineation between you and this other person, you're a people pleaser, whatever it takes to keep this person in my life or whatever. Let's say you enter into a relationship with that guy and you're together for years, can you trust him to enact boundaries that will keep your relationship safe? Is he going to be the kind of guy that's— some woman hits on him at the office. Is he going to be like, yeah, you know, sorry, sweetheart, but I'm there. I am using my language. Sorry, sweetheart. Sorry, darling, but I'm in a relationship. You know, buzz off. Mr. People Pleaser. And this is especially true, I've noticed, with the ladies. There is a personality trait called agreeableness, and women tend to be more agreeable than men. And an example that is very common is a woman is at the office, and here comes the office creep and gives her the massage on her shoulders and says, "How you doing, Mary?" And she goes, "Mm." Yeah. And instead of saying, uh, if you don't take your hands off of me right this second, you know, you're gonna pay for it, or would you like to be fired, or something, you know, really extreme that makes him go, oh shit, I better not do that. Instead she's like, I'm fine. And she's just like, I didn't like that. But she didn't say no and she didn't say buzz off. So in his dumb mind he's like, she like that. And he does it again and he does it again and he does it again. And then somehow it gets back to the Her husband, you know, she gets massages from Dave at work on a daily basis. I saw her, just want to let you know, are you cool with that? And he goes to her and says, what's the deal with the office massage thing with this asshole at work? And she's like, I didn't want to upset him. I didn't want to cause a scene. I didn't want to— major turnoff for husband. I got a wife who won't, you know, put up boundaries outside of our relationship. I don't think I can trust her. Perfect illustration of what you're talking about there, at least from a masculine point of view, because, you know, we want to, you know, keep our women to ourselves. We don't want to share them with every man out there. So I need to know that she's going to be like, no, buzz off, dude, I'm married. And if you do that again, you know, you're going to get fired. I'll go to HR. That's a woman with strong boundaries. And that's relatively rare from what a lot of guys in the dating and marriage world will tell you. We have to kind of— and we need to better instruct our daughters that it's okay to be a quote bitch sometimes. It's okay to put up those boundaries and, and be less agreeable. And it's a little bit of a struggle for you ladies as compared to our men. But, and so when we see that agreeableness in men, I think that's in part why that is so unattractive. It's kind of a feminine trait. But circling back to, we keep using the term masculine, and that is a pretty subjective term. And it could be argued it's kind of a culturally sensitive term. The guy in Italy, his version of masculine is different from the guy in Africa, is different from the guy Alaska, you know. So I guess let me ask you, what is your definition of masculine? Maybe that's too big of a question. I don't know if there's some bullet points you can say masculine to me means boom boom boom.

Well, let's see, a masculine guy, I can say, okay, I consider you a masculine guy, for example. Um, Joe Rogan, um, my ex-husband, my sons. So a masculine guy says no when he's a no. Um, he's not looking for approval, and he's got certain quality— I think that there are attributes that men have that they feel better if they're attuned with them, like, um, being, uh, they're interested, um, they're physically fit, they like pursuing a passion and a career, they're comfortable with themselves, they're able to attract women Um, they have a purpose, a mission. They're a little bit more physically aggressive. Their, their main priority is not a relationship. Their main priority is usually— I mean, they like their relationships, but what I see is they're mostly in pursuit of like their work, their passion. Um, uh, they're out in the world doing things. Their, um, hmm, let's see.

Well, let me stop you there. You've hit on several big bullet points that I would consider to be, from my world and my perspective, pretty stereotypical masculine stuff. Like, I'm listening to you nodding, going, yeah, that's, that's, you know, boilerplate masculine stuff. But I'll tell you what, what percentage of women do you think would agree with all your points right there? Especially your modern-day young gal.

Well, okay, so there's a problem in modern feminism. A lot of these women are very angry. I don't know why they're angry with men, and so they're telling the men to step down. Now, when I have talked to women who were sexually abused, they usually like a very docile man because that's how they feel safe. And, um, and they, uh, you know, and maybe they're angry at men And so, uh, an interesting thing is I came across a YouTube video where someone was saying that women who were sexually abused, they like, um, they like, um, like being in charge sexually, like just having these hookups, like, I'm gonna get back at you now, I'm in charge now, I'm in control. But it could extend to the whole relationship and the dynamics. They could be angry at men for whatever reason, and now they project it onto, you know, male society and all men, where I want to be in charge, I want to control you, men are so bad. There's a lot of anger behind that, just as there is with the incels. I first got interested in this and came across your book just by watching, I think, manosphere or incel videos and stuff, and they're very angry with women. You— and you can't— men can't get women if they're— if they hate them. See, the prisoners even get women because they like women. So the number one repellent to get a woman is you hate them. And a lot of feminists hate men, like Gloria Steinem. She hates men. You don't need men like a fish needs a bicycle. Well, a fish needs water, and women need men. Like, we need the masculine and the feminine. And I do, I do like the traditional role models, and I'll tell you why. Because how can we build attraction If I, if I don't need a man, and a man is just like a woman, and there are no genders, how can I build any attraction? Is when I was married, we had our very distinct roles. And I like that, you know, he did the house and the yard and the cars, and I did the house and the kids and the— I like that. But, you know, people might want different roles, that's fine. But if we How can we— Esther Perel talks about a bridge to cross and desire. And I think that being— and it seems to me that when men really allow themselves to be like little boys want to play in the mud and they want to play with guns and they want to challenge themselves and they want to do things that scared me as a mom, they want to do that stuff because that's just how they're built. And I am— I find that kind of cool. I— it makes me sad that women are telling men to not to be that, to make them into these docile creatures. And like this guy I went out with who subdued his masculinity and his sexuality, um, as being toxic. I probably went on this tangent. I don't even know what your question was, but I really— I think it was Um, something about—

what is masculinity in your mind? Yeah, yeah, we're trying to define that. You know, it's funny that going back to Mr. North Carolina, Mr. Darlan, uh, why he got away with the Darlan thing was not only him saying, you know, boundary, that's who I am, sorry, but it was the complete picture. He was— you said, well, when I take into account all of his other pictures and his profile and everything else he's right, he's a genuine guy, that's who he is. He's got all these masculine traits. I see he's a manly dude and he's projecting this image. I'll let it slide. And in fact, it's actually a plus. It's on the plus column that he has this boundary and he's, you know, doing this regardless. Cool. If he was this meek little man who didn't project all that, he was projecting this super sweet, over-the-top empathetic people pleaser guy, and he throws a darlin' in there, you'd be like, well, I gotta go. And so, so it's different. So again, that makes it a little bit more confusing for men. We're so analytical. You're familiar with the world of, you know, I honestly don't even know if it's around all that much anymore, pickup artists. Yeah. You know, Neil Strauss was a famous author who wrote a book called The Game, and he was this nerdy guy who infiltrated, and he was a nerdy guy and an author, a writer for Rolling Stone. Who basically got into the world of the pickup artistry and then wrote a book about it. And, um, when you read about it, you realize these are very dysfunctional, people-pleaser, codependent men who had zero luck with women. Surprise. And then they said, maybe there's an analytical way we can kind of break this game down and get laid more. And it worked. And, uh, but then in the end, they all realized, wow, we're still broken little codependent boys. And this didn't solve— this did not solve the main issue here. All it did was basically we were doing things to take advantage of the innate programming that all human beings have, and pushing this button and twisting this dial. And yay, I got in bed with more women than I've ever been with. But in the end, that's not really— it was good while it lasted, but in the end, it's not what I was going for. So that's kind of the— and why that appeals so much to men is because We like the whole break things down into digestible chunks, things we can understand. Programming— we're kind of, we're kind of on the spectrum that way, if you will. Um, you know, there's programming statements, which is if this, then this. That's what we, that's what we want. And so when we get such mixed messages of, um, I like masculine men, what does that mean? Well, this lady says these 3 things, this lady agrees, but she says also these 3 things, and this lady says you can throw all that away. They're They're brainwashed. There are women that will listen to what you say about the, uh, the traits that make a masculine man, and they will say that you have been brainwashed, that you have been— that you have been brainwashed by a more patriarchal system that has morphed and, and molded your brain so that what you like benefits me, the dude, and dudes like me.

So, okay, so what would those women say? What would What would be another woman's perspective of a masculine man?

Well, I think a lot of them would throw out the whole archetype of the masculine to begin with. They say, they would say it's like an archaic system of, you know, patriarchal, keep the woman down type of thing to say what is masculine, what's feminine. And not to get into a, you know, political rant, but we're very much in a, in this tumultuous landscape of what is gender and what is, and I think that all blends together. So to say men do this, women do that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. And like, oh no, we need to throw all that shit out and go back to the drawing board, clean slate. Nobody, you know, comes to the table with any kind of these traits or inclinations or whatever. Um, no, this is all programmed by, you know, society at large. So why don't we just reprogram ourselves and throw all that out and do a more holistic, you know, I don't know, peaceful way of approaching this relationship game. But invariably, when you look at it, it's far more, quote, feminine in nature, isn't it? That's what we're talking about. We're all swinging the pendulum over to a feminine—

then they're designing it. But the, the problem is, how can you have— how can you have sexual attraction? And you need that to be in a relationship. Yeah, right. You can't have— I— you, you can't have sexual attraction between two gender-neutral people. I mean, they could be friends And, you know, I always believe that we're spiritual beings. Okay, so we have to nurture our heart and our soul and our spiritual life. Okay. But we're also in physical form. You have to exercise and sleep and nutrition and sex. You know, that's— we have our animal nature, like our intuition, our emotions. I'm reading this really good book, The Language of Emotions. And that's one thing I'm really working on because my emotions tell me a lot of stuff instead of ignoring them and pushing them down. But I wanted to get back to what you were saying about genuine, because these people pleaser guys think they're being genuine. Like this guy I went out with, he, he actually doesn't feel his sexual energy. He actually thinks his masculinity is toxic. So he, in his mind, he's being genuine. That's what I think. I don't think that he's consciously faking things. And, you know, it's kind of interesting. Maybe I have— maybe we all have kind of like subdued, like, the shadow, right? Like the shadow work, like the parts of ourselves we've disowned. But when a man disowns his masculinity, or maybe women have disowned their femininity too— there's a lot of shaming around being a mom, or, you know, wanting to take care of your man. Like, there's shaming around that too.

So you can see that we're eschewing the whole male-female polarization, a lot, not all of us, but a lot of us are. And what are we seeing? The marriage rates? Meow. The birth rates? Meow. You know, it's going to end. And there's a part of me that says, good, because there's certain people are wired for this relationship game between man and woman. Marriage and long-term relationships, and a lot of people are not. And if, um, some of these things— society, culturally, whatever— keep people out of the game, well, is that kind of indicative of the fact that they shouldn't have been in the game to begin with? You know, this, this very monogamous man-woman together forever and ever game is not for everybody. And, um, I have always been of the opinion, especially after talking to men for so many years one-on-one, like Oh crap, we have so many people that have been in this game that should never have to begin with. And they're just causing so much chaos. And it's just a generational thing of chaos that is this such a bad thing to see the marriage rates plummeting and the baby rates plummeting. And but with that being said, sex is very important to your typical human male. And dare I say to the typical human female, we come at it from different angles. But in the end, we both, quote, need it. And when you look at the stats, when they, when they survey men and say, all right, who's having sex, that percentage of men who are having actual sexual relations with women is dwindling and dwindling and dwindling to a, to a scary degree. And why is that scary? You know, going back to what I said, maybe that's just the natural order of things. You know, maybe this is only the survival of the fittest, if you will. Um, well, but the problem is, is that going back to what you talked about with the incel, that, that movement of men, that's scary. And, um, when men— we have basically dangled in front of these men this carrot for their whole life that, you know what, the source of your happiness and your completion as a human being, as a male, is, is to find a woman make her yours, and you go through life forever and ever, make 2.5 kids and all this other stuff. And now we're saying to a large chunk of men, yeah, sorry, that's not for you. You can go over there now. And the response is what? Anger, violence. Yeah, they're angry, and it's, it's scary. And the most extreme end result is, you know, get a gun and go into some place and take out their rage on the world because the world is doesn't understand them. They don't, you know, we dangle that carrot and we pulled it away and said, not for you. And, um, they see that small percentage of men and women out there having the time of their life. And, you know, it, it's, it sounds, you know, like some quote-unquote red pill bullshit, but we have the stats to prove it, that a relatively small number of men are getting all the girls, so to speak.

And that is, yeah, that's, you know, I want to say a couple of Things about that, that, um, that Christine Embow wrote that article in the Washington Post, Men Are Lost, and Scott Galloway, who writes a lot about lost men. But I was, um, there's a— and then also I think Chris Williamson, he has a lot of good podcasts about, you know, what's going on with men, and he's very concerned also about the men crisis. But one of the statistics is one-third of men under 30 in the U.S. had no sex in the past year. And they're turning to porn. But the reason it's a problem is that, as Scott Galloway was saying, let's see, I took— what did I write down? Is that if you look at all the unstable violence societies, they have a disproportionate number of men with no economic opportunities or relationships. And so I think the economic decline has a lot to do with it, too. Yeah. The, the declining wages and the rising costs of housing. Um, so a lot of men are just living with their moms and they're checked out. And I mean, there's a lot there. I was gonna, um, yeah, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Oh, uh, well, before we run out of time, I also want to make sure I had time to ask you about like how men can change this people-pleasing thing or get women or be in their masculine power. Like, what is the path to change? But anything else you wanted to say before?

What is— okay, I like this. The, the direction you're going in. Okay, we've identified that there are some men that have a set of characteristics that are really keeping them out of the mating game. That's what we're talking about. Um, so what's the solution here? Um, I think keep it simple. Men like simple. And one of the most— one of the most simple things is, um, so tell me about your guy friends. And I'll tell you what, probably 75% of those men who kind of exhibit what you're friend did there in the— during those dates would probably say, I don't really have any guy friends. I just don't. I, you know, go to school, go to my job. I got this platonic girl or two or three that I hang out with, you know, crossing my fingers that that may result in some kind of romantic thing. That takes up a good amount of my time, you know, work and everything else. And it's just I haven't been able to shoehorn guy time in there, especially if they're a dude that's, uh, already in a relationship. That's very rare because throw kids and job and everything else into the mix and trying to shoehorn guy time in there is very, very difficult. Um, so we are seeing, by my estimation, how do you learn and how do you become comfortable in your masculinity and so forth is hanging around other men. I, more specifically, other like-minded men who I want to get better and I want to do better. Not a bunch of guys who sit in the basement, just play video games all the time. No offense to my video game dudes out there, but there's more to life than that. Um, shameless plug, I have a men's group called the DSO Fraternity. You can learn more if you're interested, DSOFraternity.com. And it's very much a bunch of guys who were former people pleasers who had failed relationships as a result. Maybe they're still in it and they haven't touched their wife in 5 years. That's relatively common, unfortunately. Maybe they got out of a divorce and they're trying to reinvent themselves, or maybe they've never been in a real serious relationship and boy, they would love to. But they just— just like your friend there, they're missing something. And they've been playing by this game plan all these years and it's just not working. And they have identified, you know, I really don't have any men in my life. And then when they join our group, they're like, that was it. That was what was missing. Hallelujah. You know, I'm not alone. I can't tell you how many men say that. I thought all this time that I was alone in my struggles, you know, being Mr. Nice Guy and getting nowhere, being Mr. Nice Guy and my wife won't touch me, won't look at me. And I thought I was— and you're like, no, dude, you're one of millions of men out there that are like this. And the key to getting better is being with men who have been there and done that and have come out on the other side, and you learn from them. Voilà, it's that simple.

That must be such a relief for these guys because they're probably thinking, what's wrong with me, you know? And then to realize that it's a common thing must be such a weak.

Yes. Um, when we're talking about psychological terms, we're talking about guys that are very anxious. They have a lot of anxiety. When you look at attachment theory, they're very anxiously attached guys. And to your point that you made earlier, opposites attract. They tend to be attracted to, and they attract, um, very Type A controlling women. And some of those women go to the far extreme and are very narcissistic in nature and take advantage of their codependent ways. And, um, yeah, to get stuck in that little machine, it's very debilitating, very unhealthy. And, um, what they often will do, men that have that anxious temperament, will go and read a lot of books on relationships to try and fix their problems. They'll watch a lot of YouTube videos, podcasts, and so forth, and they just take in this avalanche of information and they don't really do anything with it. It. And their, their avoidant partner really doesn't want to hear it either. They're kind of sick of hearing about how the relationship's broken and all that stuff. They're just like, you know, get away from me, I don't want to hear this, stop with the podcast and stop with the— I want to go to counseling and just leave me alone. So for them, for guys like them, the missing ingredient is other men in their life. And that is something that I think our past generations were way better at identifying And we had all those fraternal organizations as a result. Pardon me, like your Shriners and your Masons and all these other, you know, the Elks Lodge and all these other lodges. It's basically, we need to get the hell away from the wife and the kids and everything and just get together and bullshit and chat. But it went beyond that. They were, you know, like these Mason groups and stuff, of which I'm not a part of, and I really don't know much about them. I know they're kind of creepy to some people with some of their ritualistic stuff and everything. But what they're good at is it's not just get together and have beers. They have a very much a network, and they all look out for each other outside of their little beer drinking. Um, they're all there to help, help out, and they're all brothers, as they call each other. And I think that is huge, and that is missing for a lot of guys.

Is it also like guys going golfing together or going, uh, Would that be something similar? Yeah, why not? But like having guys to hang out with?

I think, yeah, but as long as it goes beyond the superficial, you know, I could have golf with some guys and all we talk about is football. That's, that's good. But, but wouldn't it be nice to golf with a guy and be like, how's the marriage going? You know, how are you and the wife? How's the kiddo? How was the, you know, your, your kiddo went through the problem at school? What's going on there? Those kind of deeper conversations, if you will. Um, that's a little tougher for some men to get past that. It's funny, it's tougher for men to get past that kind of that superficial small talk, you know, me and Bob, we just, you know, have beers and talk about sports and that's it. But once that— once they get over that hump, and usually it's something kind of dramatic happens, and maybe one of them gets a little emotional, I'm like, hey buddy, what's going on? Once they get past that hump, that relationship with that dude is way beyond any other kind of platonic relationship he's had with any other women or anything. It's something about that masculine connection that really takes it to the next level. And then how—

okay, so that gives the men a lot of support. How do they actually start changing their behavior with the women? Because it's kind of like this hypnotic way we have of behaving. Is it like waking up to it is the first step and then they consciously change? Like, I think once they want to change, they can change.

Yeah, I think just being around men, watching other men, listening to other men, eventually it all kind of seeps in and becomes part of your being, your psyche. And, um, yeah, and I think, I think a big part of a lot of men's issues is anxiety and, uh, self-loathing. And, you know, if you can do things that make you a less anxious person— for some men, it is as simple as move your body more, go to the gym, push heavy things. And, you know, or for some men it's run long distances or whatever, exhaust your body, get that energy out. And they're like, oh, because as you know, as a fitness person, we were engineered for that. And when we don't do that, the brain and body go gaga. And that's what a lot of men are experiencing. So for some men it's that simple. I lost 30 pounds and went to the gym, I feel great. And me and my buddies go work out and, you know, go do these Ironman triathlons or whatever it is. And that, that was the key for me. Boom. Smooth sailing since then. Relationships, job, everything improved. While for others, it may be a little bit more intense, and they have to deal with family issues and past childhood issues that they have with all this self-shame. Um, this shame stuff is a big thing for men, and it doesn't help that a lot of the quote-unquote help out there for men, it's very shame-based. You know, you need to Stop being so sexual and aggressive and this and that, Mr. Man, and you need to soften up a bit. That's a shameful kind of thing. Oh, I'm inherently a stupid bull in a china shop. I need to cool it or else I'm just going to break everything.

That's not a good message for men to hear. Yeah, the sexual thing is hard because I do not like it when men approach me just trying to get, get my body, right? So they have to, uh, I think they have to approach women as a whole being and just be a sexual person, but be a whole man. If all they're trying to get is a lay, that is a turnoff. And so that's, that's important.

What is doubly confusing, and I agree with you there, what, what makes that doubly confusing is we have a lot of guys who have been people pleaser, Mr. Nice Guy, and then they get nowhere. And some of them get downright angry about it. And they swing the pendulum over to asshole territory. Territory, and they do become very hyper-aggressive sexual to the point of being like, dude, but I'll tell you what, if you ask them, how's the sex now versus Mr. Nice Guy time? For a lot of men, that's basically all they care about at that point. You know, they've been so sex-starved and so attention-starved that anything is better than nothing. And they'll say, well, you know, for the last 6 months of me being Mr. Asshole, I've had 100 times more sex than when I was Mr. Nice nice guy. So that is, that is very difficult to tell those men, turn it down, buddy, you know, because he in his very, you know, caveman way says it's working.

Okay, well, I'm gonna say a couple things about that. One is, uh, a healthy man is going to get tired of that. He's going to get bored of that eventually, you know, after eventually a year or two. That's the key. Yes. Yeah, because, uh, I have, I have a friend who's kind of going through that phase and And the other thing is the kind of women he gets. The kind of women that men get when they do that are very broken women.

That is the most— that is the most—

like the crazy type. And I don't know, I hear guys talk about women who are crazy in bed. I have no idea what that means, but they're the typical woman. The typical woman isn't going to be down DTF with some random guy who's an asshole those are going to be very broken women. And so broken people attract broken people. But let me, let me stop you there.

I think that is the most often said thing by women is, oh sure, you're getting some now, mister, but look who you're getting with. The men in that, you know, with Mr. Sex, love-starved man for like a big chunk of his life, does not care. So I always suggest to women, just save your breath. He's, he's, he's feeling like a He's feeling like a king right now. You know, who cares if the woman showed up at his door crying at 2 AM screaming because she's nuts or whatever? He's just— notch on the bedpost, you know? He's just like, look at me. That is a stage that the man whore stage— excuse my language, but, um, yeah, kind of what those men have to kind of go through to kind of prove their virility and their status as a man. Like, I can do it. So to tell that man, yeah, but he's just like I don't care. At least I'm getting some. I never did before. This is why I'm on this planet. I'm here to procreate and go out and do my business. But you're right, once they been there, done that, they're like, there's more to life than this, isn't there? And, uh, yeah, maybe I want to go back to the drawing board here. And then the pendulum was over here, and then it slowly comes back. Unfortunately for some men, they slam it all the way over here again, and they're waffling back and forth. Like everything else in life, the, the solution is the gray area in the middle there.

Yeah, um, I think that the pickup artist guy, and also Tucker, Tucker Max, he wrote this book. I happen to have it here, wrote this book called Mate. Tucker Max.

I know of Tucker Max, but I don't know of that book.

Yeah. Um, well, he was a, he was a big player. He wrote a book. And, uh, uh, well, now he's married with kids. And also the guy, the pickup guy, they both went into the center. They're like, that was no good. I'm tired of that. You know, that's not fulfilling. And now they're in relationships. I think they kind of went towards the middle. But I wanted to say one more thing is that— oh gosh, what was I going to say? Oh, you were saying earlier that women are going after the top 20% of men. That's only online, I believe. This is my opinion on this, because people who are online— when men are online, they have to realize that the best We evolved in tribes. We evolved to connect and, uh, in social face-to-face interactions. So I see men all the time, short, fat men who have women, and beautiful women. But that's the way to meet women. But if you go online, you basically have to be a model because now we as women are looking at a catalog. And now if you offer me a catalog, I want the prettiest. Thing. So, you know, like some 5'8" Indian guy is not going to get a woman on Bumble or Tinder or anywhere else. Yeah, but I have seen many 5'8", 5'7" Indian guys that are married, uh, that have women. Oh, another guy I really like is Healthy Gamer GG. He's a Harvard-trained psychiatrist who has specialized in helping men especially, like the gamers. He's super good, and, um, he's a short Indian guy. He has a beautiful wife, a couple kids, but I bet he would get nothing if he were on a dating app. So that's why men— that's why I don't really like those stats specifically telling men that you can't get anyone unless you're in the top 20%, uh, because that, you know, like, I met my husband in college, ex-husband, you know. The way that we kind of bond is seeing someone over time. How I see you at work, how I see you school, you know, I was introduced by a mutual friend at a wedding or at a party, or I keep seeing you at the coffee shop, and we kind of build that connection, that interest, and more like in a face-to-face kind of a way. So that's why I think we really need to have like more places where people can connect socially. The online thing, I just got on Bumble out of desperation because I start— I go all these places and no one ever talks to me. So that's—

yeah, I mean, we could go on and on about the online dating world and how that is. You know, I think, I think years from now, if we're not there already, we will look back on that and say, oh boy, was that a bad mistake. That just boiled down a very complex human ritual into a very, like you say, a catalog visual thing of nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. That's, you know, and What we know just based on the stats is that women do the nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, maybe, while men do the yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, that's not healthy. And you're right, to the— your point with, with your 5'8" Indian friends and so forth is that what are they pointing out? Well, some of your more incel-y types will, uh, look, look at that and say, well, he has status, probably. He's probably a high earner. He's probably, you know, he's upper echelon of whatever profession he's in, and that, that's what got him over the edge. Um, what— which I will say, that could very well be it. That we all know the gross-looking billionaire who's surrounded by the, you know, the Playboy Playmate-looking girls. That certainly exists, but that's a relatively very small percentage of men. But more often than not, what is it? Is personality, charm. Like, that's, that's, you know, maybe your looks get you in the door, but you can be a dumb mimbo, you know, the You can look like a male model, but if you don't have it between the ears, it ain't gonna last very long. And you have to be a good conversationalist, charming individual, unfortunately. Well, how do you get there? Experience. Go out and talk to a lot of people. Well, how do you do that? Go out in the real world and just start meeting people. Yeah, but nobody does that anymore. Everybody's online and sitting at home doing this. Well, shit, that's kind of a catch-22. And I think what we're going to see is, um, and I was talking to Dr. Robert Glover about this. I said, I think we're going to see a trend of people, um, saying, I don't really like the online thing all that much anymore. I think we're going to see a return of a lot of more traditional type of, you know, courtship, or whatever you want to call it, dating. And, um, I think that'll probably be at first led by a lot of your more socially conservative types, your churchgoers and so forth. I think they'll probably lead that more of— you're going to see a lot of people marrying within their own community and blending together. And, you know, the Baptists and the Catholics and the Jews and then getting all together. And because it's— they realize that this, this whole online world doesn't really mesh well with our, our values. And, uh, maybe we will all learn from them. I don't know. It's just a theory of mine that we will see us going in the opposite direction. Or is the cat out of the bag and it's too late? We can't go back now. And, uh, because you ladies clean up on the online world. I mean, you have your pick of the litter.

No, not really, because I get all these guys sending me likes, but they live so far away and I'm not interested in them. I would, you know what I think we need? We need more social spaces where people can meet face to face, and I think that's a part that the city could take. You know, they could have a Singles Day at the park, or to build community, because people are afraid to talk to each other, you know, or like the gym could have like a singles night, or, uh, I was doing pickleball, trying out pickleball, and they were going to have a singles day, but then they never did it. Uh, there need to be more organizations that kind of foster like singles days where people can meet face to face, because relationships are built face to face. They're not built by being on our phones anyway. So I hope that what you say will— a lot of people are disenchanted with the online dating. Yes. Yeah.

If in fact we are seeing such a small percentage of people getting together and forming relationships and having sex, and like 80% of us are left out of that game, yeah, something has to give. Somebody has to come up with an alternative. We're just, by our human nature, we like to pair bond with other humans. Now whether that remains long, long term is another story, but we'd like to form, become boyfriend, girlfriend. If we don't, if the big bulk of us are left out of that game, We're gonna find an alternative solution somehow.

Also, one more thing about cleaning up online. Yeah, they wanna fuck us. That's what they want. They swipe on every woman. That's a woman. There's a woman. I'm gonna swipe. But then a lot of them don't wanna meet because I had two Bumble dates that one guy actually accepted his date. As soon as I accepted his date, and he was a guy that had seen me out at a restaurant with some friends a few weeks before, like he remembered seeing me, which was odd, but I accepted his date and then he immediately unmatched me. And then this other guy just kind of, um, didn't confirm the plans or something. Like, I have, I have a lot of that too, where they will schedule a date and then cancel because they're afraid to meet, or maybe they don't really feel it. Whereas you meet someone online, in person, you can say, oh, I really want to see this person again. Whereas online, it could be like, oh, maybe that's too far away and I'm not really feeling it. And that's where it goes to discipline and intention. Anyone can get on these apps. They're not screened. And a lot of people don't have that intention, that discipline to keep their word and to pursue. Like, when I go on there and I want to go on a date, I'm going to show up. But some people might not really want to show up. So It's hard to really gauge people's interests and intentions in these kind of like very fake. But I've been single for 10 years and I get on a dating app like a couple of days every 6 or 8 months. Then I get— but I don't know what to do. I don't know where because I go everywhere. I don't meet people. Hmm. So this is kind of like a personal, personal thing for me also, like this whole discussion around men and masculinity. Sure. And, you know, men don't want to come up and talk to me. And when I do go out, men are not out alone. They're out with their wives. Like if I go to the opera or the theater or to dinner, or they're at the gym, I guess, just working out. I don't know. It's just kind of hard to meet people anymore. Um, if I'm not like in going to church or Siegman in a work setting. So I guess I can just say that I too have this issue. You know, men are saying they can't get women, but I can't get men either. I mean, yeah, they want to fuck me, but that's not what I want.

Well, there you go.

I want to like good masculine men.

Again, it's gonna fall on deaf ears if you go to a man and say, we don't have luck either. And he'll say, really? You don't have, you know, 20 men ready and willing to jump into bed with you? And you say, well, yeah, I have that, but I don't have— that's— we see that as you win, you won the race. You know, if you have 20 men this week who are like, yeah, I'll jump in bed with you, well, then you win. Now, to your point, you're like, that's— no, no, no, no, I'm looking for genuine connection here. I'm not looking for, you know, I'm not, I'm not a prostitute here. I'm looking for a genuine connection. The men say, oh, well, yeah, that's different. We—

but we look at— oh yeah, okay. The only way that women can benefit from our sexuality then is if they pay us. And I do have a Just For Fans and all of that, which I don't put that all on my YouTube. That's a separate thing. But, but what we— but what we— but what I want is like a masculine man who's interested in me. And so a man just interested in a woman for sex is like me just interested in a man for what he can buy for me. Yeah, exactly. And I think men can relate to that.

They don't want that either. Or do they? Some men do. Some men are perfectly fine saying, if I have a pretty woman by my side and she spends the evening with me just because I drive a Ferrari, that's cool. Some men are, you know, as shallow as that. They're at that stage in life where they've tried the relationship thing before, didn't work, and they're cool with being the sugar daddy.

You know that? Yeah, but most women do not want— like, I have tried hooking up. Like, I tried it last, like, a year ago. I was just really great guy. But anyway, I, to me, it's, it's traumatizing, traumatizing when I just have sex with a guy, and then he just kind of like disappears. Because that's all he wanted. So to me, that feels traumatizing. And I tried to figure out like, what's wrong with me? How can I be okay with this? But I realized that's my body telling me like, I don't like this. Now, if a guy's paying me, and I've been an escort in the past, if he's paying me, I don't care. But otherwise, I do feel like I'm being used. And so I like to make a lot of videos on my channel too about our differences, and I try to explain to men how I feel as a woman, and I try to understand how men feel also. And that's just one of our differences that men just have to try to understand instead of being like, oh, women have it so good. Well, try to ask why that's not what we want, and then we as women have to understand why You know, it is something that you, you may want.

Yeah, it's a— this relationship game ain't easy, that's for sure. No. And we're not, and we're not making it any easier on ourselves by putting up all these walls and these boundaries. And which is ironically all under the guise of convenience with an app on our phone, which just, as we've learned, just puts up more barriers between genuine connection, the apps and so forth. Whittle it down to, you have pretty face, you have pretty body, I'm willing to do dirty things with you, click. And that's, for some, great. If you're at that stage in life, more power to you. But, uh, most people with a bit of maturity don't— are looking for something a little bit beyond that.

Yes. Um, so where can people, um, let's, uh, yes, I know you have to go, so where can people find you?

Um, DadStartingOver.com is the website. Do a search for Dad Starting Over and you'll see me in all the social media channels. My two biggest are Facebook. I'm very active on Facebook, and TikTok has taken off. So I do a lot of little videos on a daily basis, one or two videos every single day about these kind of topics that we're talking about here. And I've been at this for years and years. I have a— I've been doing articles for years. The videos have taken over. Those get way more traffic than any, any article I've ever written. And, um, a podcast— I've had my wife on the podcast, that's a big interest to people. Um, most people find me via a book that you mentioned early on called The Dead Bedroom Fix. That's the— that was a big seller, and most people find me via that book, which addresses the number one pain point for men, which is I'm married and I'm not getting any. And, uh, on top of all that, my biggest, proudest thing that I've created is the private group for men called the D Fraternity, and you can join that. And we have live meetings for men via Zoom. We record all of them. You can listen to the archive of the meetings. We have a very busy, active, uh, private online forum that men from all over the world get on and talk about all these different issues that we're talking about. And we have a member-only podcast, member-only articles, and we get together in person. And we've had several annual meetups in the US and in Australia, and coming up here soon June in Amsterdam for our guys in Europe. So very cool.

Wow. And so for men to join that online group, they go to your website, dadstartingover.com?

Yep. And I also have the domain of dsofraternity.com, and that will get you to the same place. You can, uh, you go dadstartingover.com/join and you can join the group, or dsofraternity gets you to the same place. And we do monthly— you can do month to month to see how you like it, and most guys do like an annual, and we even have a lifetime option for guys if they want to join, pay a few extra bucks and get the lifetime option.

And then you also do coaching with men.

The coaching, yes, we do that for the general public, but most of our clients are in the DSO fraternity. The fraternity members get pretty sizable discount on the coaching, and the coaching is myself and 9 other gentlemen. And all of us—

oh wow, you've got a huge business there.

Yeah, all of us have, uh, different life experiences. You know, we have a military guy, we have a guy who's lost like 200 pounds. We have a guy who's been, you know, divorced and cheated on. I got myself. And you can, uh, you know, purchase time to chat with any of us. And that's been wildly successful. Yeah. Okay, great.

Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

I appreciate it. Good chatting with you again.

Good chatting with you.