My Live Chat with Melissa Vogel

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. Miss Melissa Vogel, welcome.

Thanks for having me on.

Absolutely. Thank you for coming. Who the hell are you and why are we talking to you? Tell us all about yourself. Well, I am Melissa Vogel.

I I am the CEO and owner of Busy Tube Bomb. Um, I'm also the owner of the program, um, Fit Mind Coaching. So I help people gap the space with their health, fitness, weight loss, all of that, and with their mindset at the same time. Um, I bring both worlds together, and like you and I have talked about before, if you don't tackle what's going on in your, in your environment, your relationships, your mind, your soul, your spirit along with your health and fitness journey, man, you will struggle and you will struggle hard. So that is what I specialize in. I'm also the host of the Bomb Life Podcast. So that is where we—

which is how we met. Yeah, you and I met on the Bomb Life Podcast, your extremely popular podcast. You had me on. Thank you again for having me on.

It was great. It blew up.

Yeah, it did. So we talked all about my perspective on the relationship game and everything else as a hetero dude that's been through, been there and done that and gone through the wringer and all that stuff. And you related to a lot of it, and you were nodding, going, yeah, I know some of this stuff. And, and you said, I'd like to chat again. So let's do it live for everyone to see here. Let me go to the comments. I mean, got the— I don't know if you can see on your side, you are able to see the comments.

Oh yes.

Well, there, so got a couple that are coming in from YouTube. We are simulcasting, I guess you could say, on two different Facebook accounts, two different YouTube accounts, as well as X or Twitter, however whatever it's called. Isn't technology amazing? And here on the screen, it consolidates all the comments on one screen here. So they will be coming in as we go live here to the whole world. We got, um, I love it, Kristoff, I guess is what this says. Just says Kristoff. And of course I'm here. Hi! Well, hello Kristoff! And Ninja Spam, a regular. Howdy Ninja Spam, how are you? I love the names. Um, Miss Melissa You are. Let's get into it, shall we? And you have said here that you're an open book. Let's talk about it. So let's—

I know, I, I— well, after we got done talking on the podcast, I was just like, oh my God, we have to keep this conversation going and help women understand men, but also men heal and everything that you do. And I'm like, there you go, there you go, it's gonna be perfect.

So we— let's talk about who my audience is. Maybe that will help paint a picture here and we can go from there. So, uh, a lot of guys who've, um been through the wringer of divorce, guys that are trying like heck to make their marriages work. That was— that's my material, so that's who I attract to me in the books I've written on the subject. By the way, let me bring this up before I forget. Hold on, gotta reach here. This is my latest book, for guys that don't know, Rebuild. This is the hardcover edition of Rebuild: The Complete Guide to Starting Over as a Man. So check that out. You can learn more, all my books, at help4men.com. So, but guys love to hear the perspective of women. Who've been there, done that. You yourself have been divorced.

17 years.

That 17 years ago, or the relationship was 17 years long?

Yeah, the marriage was 17 years long. I got married very young. I was gonna say right away.

Wow.

Yeah.

In hindsight, what would you have done differently?

Um, definitely wouldn't have gotten married so soon. Definitely would have waited. Dated more, talked, got to know what I needed. But then also, like, honestly, looking back, I needed to heal. I needed to learn and discover who I was first, because then I expected him to just read my mind and fulfill everything that I needed. And he didn't know what I needed, and I didn't know what he needed. I just, I wasn't together. I wasn't healed. I wasn't complete.

Do I hear a yippee-yap in the background?

Oh yeah, you like that?

I thought it might— I didn't know if it was outside because I'm— I have a window right here, so I'm like, am I— is the neighbor's dog going nuts? Because they have two little ones. No, that's your own little yip yapper.

Yeah, yeah.

What kind of doggy do you have?

Typical woman dog, a little Pomeranian.

That's what I was picturing, a little puppy.

Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna strangle them.

Do you walk around like a little pack on you with a little head sticking out?

I don't.

California thing, which is where you're at, right? You're in Cali?

Yeah, I'm in California.

All right, so let's start where you said you kind of started too young. That I hear that from a lot of guys. Um, a lot of guys, you know, early 20s and they started right away. And often, um, when I ask guys like, dude, what were you doing getting married so young? Because the same thing, they look back and go, man, I should have taken my time and you should have dated around and should have got myself settled first and become a more secure dude and who I was and everything else before jumping into a relationship. And I asked him, why did you? And they always say, it's just what you do, man.

You know, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Like, that's, that's what we think, like, the next step of life is like, oh, we meet and we gotta hurry up and do it.

I gotta hurry up and do it because, you know, from the, from the female perspective, I get it more simply because, you know, I, I often mention this, that I was watching, or I think I read, or I watched a video that a woman said there was— this was a young lady who was like, you know, I've done the math And my plan was to do my degree, get the job thing, date around, meet a dude, meet several dudes until I find a dude I want to commit myself to. And then we're going to date for a while. And then we're going to— then we're going to get engaged. And the engagement period may take a while. And then we'll eventually get married. And she goes, and I don't want to have kids right away. I want to see the world, travel together, experience life as this new couple together. And then we'll go through the process of having kids. And she's like, hold on. I've done the math and I can't, I can't wait that long. She's like, by the time I do all that, I'm like 40-something, and that my chances of having a kid safely and in a healthy way just go— so she's like, I better get started young, young. So there you go. I could see why our grandparents told us like, don't waste any time, what are you doing, sister, get to it, right? We guys don't have as much of a biological imperative, but we get the social pressure like Dude, you need to settle down, get your woman. It's just what you do. And, and away you go. And a lot of us that came from— I don't know how much you want to get into this— a lot of us that came from not so nice backgrounds, childhood and everything else, we got a lot of baggage to contend with. And we tend to match up with the wrong ladies that remind us a lot of mom and dad and all that other stuff that we never dealt with. And we don't realize it until we're in our 30s and 40s, and after divorce, after 2 or 3 kids, that we're like, crap, I'm just repeating this generational thing. Can you relate to that?

Oh well, and who teaches us that? You know what I mean? Like, no one is talking to these guys. Like, you're one of the first people that are having like a real conversation about it, being honest about it now. Like, I wish we could funnel you into the 20-year-olds, you know, late teens, 20-year-old guys, and hear these conversations now. I mean, it would save them so much pain and agony and like doing the work early. But yeah, like, no one talks about this. No one sat us down and was like hold on, let's make sure we're not repeating the cycles and you're not, you know, emotionally taking care of your wife in every step of the way, just like how you had to with your mom when you were a child.

There you go.

I just asked a guy that the other day. He was getting out of like a 6-year marriage— or not marriage, I'm just a relationship— and he's like 45, never, never married her. And he was like, I could just never make her happy. I could never make— and he can't— he like brought that up several times in one of our calls. And I'm like, at what stage, what age of life did you feel like it was your responsibility to emotionally care for someone else? And he just sat there.

It was like, that's been his whole— that's been the structure of the foundation of all of his interpersonal relationships. I need to make them, him or her, happy. And if they're not— I just released a video here, I think it was this morning I released it, and I can tell it's gonna, it's gonna get some traction because it's gonna hit with so many guys. That I admit that I am very hypersensitive to other people's emotions. So when I'm with a woman, for example, and I notice that her face is a little off, something's wrong, I immediately jump to, "What's wrong? Like, we have to fix this now. We have to get rid of this negative emotion. What is it? What did I do? Like, how can we get past this so I can feel better? Because when you feel bad, I feel bad, and that ain't good." And so many people label that as, "Yeah, you're a sweet guy. You're a nice guy. You're an empathetic dude. What's wrong with that?" Well, it can go south in a hurry because eventually, like, everybody's emotions affect you, and you can't— they can't have a bad day or your day's ruined and everything else. And then eventually the ladies in our lives say, I gotta know that I can be emotional around you, dude. I gotta know that I have a PMS-y day and you're not gonna like wig out on me and start like, we have to fix this and everything. It's okay if I'm bad, you don't have to be bad too, right? That's tough for a lot of us guys.

We talked about that on, um, our podcast together, and I got so many DMs. I think I had a small clip of it that really set it on fire, and we were talking about how, like, a man being like our foundation and solid and being able to carry us when we are up and down, because we are very up and down. Like, women are not in a steady state at all. And there's nothing sexier than a man just being able to be like, okay, I got you, I'm just gonna hold you in this space. Oh my God, did people respond to that, you know? And we even got some men that were like, no, that's not an excuse for her to be a bitch. And I'm like, oh dude, you're looking at that way wrong.

Yeah, well, there is— in their defense, there is a line, like with anything else. So of course, if the woman's flying off the handle and calling you names, or God forbid putting a hand on you or something. Yes, there's a thing called boundaries, ladies and germs, where you go, yeah, we don't do that. I don't treat you that way, and I don't expect you to treat me that way either. That you're, you're being an asshole, so stop. Exactly. That's called being an adult. And that's the point where a lot of men don't get— a lot of men are like, yeah, right, like you can never say that to a woman. No, you can. It's called having a, you know, guy with boundaries. And by the way, ironically, that is also sexy. That is also attractive. A guy who won't put up with shit when it goes too far, but at the same time, a guy who says, I got you, sweetie. So it's a delicate balancing game, and that is where a lot of guys struggle, especially dudes who had a mom and dad who flew off the handle all the time and were yelling. And there was a lot of others— you don't know how to process all that and deal with all that. Yeah, hence why you probably should get on top of that before you say, hey, you want to be my wife and make a family? And— but yeah, how many of us do that, right?

Right? Ben had said there in the comments, but the women have to let us hold them. That is true. I agree. I very much agree with Ben. And you know, if I'm going to be open and honest, like, that was me. Um, I didn't know how to trust anyone to hold me, so— or, you know, I didn't like create space for me to do that. So even if he would, I would have pushed it away anyways because I didn't know how. I didn't, I didn't trust but there was also a lot of situations where he did things where I couldn't trust him. So I'm like, how do I let you be there for me, but then at the same time, like, how stable is that going to be, you know? So a lot of my healing journey after my divorce has been learning— which sounds ridiculous, but like— how to accept love, how to trust, how to not have one foot in and one foot out.

There you go. The— I think the psych term would be you may have some tendencies towards what we call like a fearful avoidant person. Yeah, I would love to open up to, but dude, I'm gonna get hurt, and so I'm just gonna hold back, and I'm not going to open myself up to you. Yeah, here's, here's the guy going, let me in, and you're like, gah, no, man, you got, you got to earn that. And a lot of guys are like, me having to constantly earn that from you is just exhausting, draining. Yeah, it's draining. What Ben's saying here, the woman have to let us in a little bit, and us, us anxious guys tend to match up with those avoidant avoidant women. Most of them are very dismissively avoidant. Like, even if we were, we can't earn the trust. It's just not there. They're just like, no, I don't do that kind of open, vulnerable stuff. That's just not me, and it's never going to be me. And it's heartbreaking for a lot of guys. So you have to realize who it is you're with, and it's— this stuff's tough.

I find it interesting that that match happens with women like that. I just, I don't know, it fascinates me every time you say something about that. I'm like, And that's true. I can look at a lot of relationships, even with like my brother and the partner that he picked. I'm like, she is completely avoidant. Like, that is—

so what do you think, looking at your brother, not to dissect his relationship too much, but where do you think that comes from?

Oh, he totally married my dad.

There you go.

100%. They are divorced now. That just actually got finalized. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and that was a 13-year marriage, but she constantly moved the goalpost. Like within 10 years of, of marriage, they had moved like 8 times and they had remodeled like 20 kitchens, you know. It was like, he's like, the goalpost is here and then it was here. And he's like, I couldn't— it was always moving. It was never good enough. And then when we would try and talk about it and be like, okay, well, what do you want? She wouldn't want to dive in. And then it was, it was interesting. And it was interesting to watch and be there for my brother as he was going through it, being someone that kind of just went through it But on the other end, you know, he was the man going through it, and I was the woman going through it. So yeah.

Do you want to bring the dog into the studio?

Seriously, can you hear? I turned, I turned the gain down all the way down on my mic.

No, you're good. It's, it is getting a little louder, but it's fine with me if it's cool with you. But if I literally, if you want to bring the dog in, feel free. You're not going to bother me.

I do.

OK, go ahead.

He's driving me nuts.

Go do your thing. Okay, now we'll play music, like hold music while she's gone to go get the dog. I don't know if you guys could hear that. I can. It's very— yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, we have Mr. Ryan Stone in, uh, on Facebook saying, men are raised to take care of women, of a woman, but women aren't necessarily raised on how to treat a man. I think it's a culturally kind of a thing. There are some cultures that it is Believe it or not, Ryan, there are some cultures where it's flipped, where there's very much like, we really don't care what the woman wants, it's all about the dude. And but we're seeing kind of a, a switch, aren't we, in our little modern-day world? Welcome back. Oh, I was expecting you to actually hold the doggy, and, and I had that whole vision in mind, you know, the whole— no? All right, just running around there. Oh, can't, can't hear you.

There we go. The neighbor dog got out, that was why.

Oh, the neighbor. Okay, okay.

Yeah, so he was in the yard and I'm like Why are you barking so much? That is why.

So there you go. All right, very cool. So, Mr., uh, we were saying here, I'm curious what your take is on this. Mr. Ryan from Facebook: men are raised to take care of a woman, but women aren't necessarily raised on how to treat a man. And I was saying, I pushed back a little bit on that to say, you know, there are some cultures that are very man-focused, like, woman, you will do this, must do this to keep man happy.

Oh yeah.

But in today's modern day and age, in our little world, probably in Ryan's world, we don't see that as much. What do you think?

Well, the, the whole masculine-feminine role— women don't know how to lean into their feminine. If you don't, you're not going to let a man lead in his masculine, and that is not taught. Um, and, and he is right to some extent. Um, but it also goes back to a lot of women can't trust the man to lead. Like, I had a really hard time falling into my feminine in my marriage. And again, it was because of so many, like, outbursts and not following through. And it was, it was a lot of that. And, and then he traveled a lot too. He was gone all the time, which means I was at home taking care of the kids, running the house, doing everything. Um, and I kind of, like, went into a survival mode. And then he would come back, and then that just disrupted everything. I'm like, no, I still got to stay in charge. I got to be in charge. Like, now you're just in my way. And that's hard to just relax, like, when the ups and downs of the travel and stuff. And there was a lot of lack of communication too. But, um, and now we run into this whole boss babe thing, you know, and women are, well, I gotta work and I gotta do this. And I had to be very careful because I found myself falling into that because I did— I had to find a home and I had to, you know, figure everything out on my own. And I'm like, I got everything, I don't need a man, I can I could do everything on my own. Like, what do I need? Well, talk about taking away my feminine.

Okay, so to use the terms, my— the feminine, the masculine— how would you as a woman define the feminine?

The feminine, I think, is allowing someone to lead, letting someone, um, not to go into sex or anything, but, you know, like, be dominant in that area too. And, um, I think a feminine role, um, sits back and listens and accepts the love and allows him to make decisions. I'm thinking of all the things that I didn't do. Like, I always had to make the decisions. I always had to be in charge. I had to decide everything. I had to be on top of everything. Um, And it's like they take that and go the exact opposite, that I would have been in my feminine. Um, and it's crazy too, I don't know if you know about like the right and the left side of the body, like our right is our masculine and our left is our feminine. All of my body pain, like I would have shoulder pain on my right, my hips, my back was always on my right. And I went to someone one time and he was like, do you ever feel like you're stuck a little bit in your masculine? And masculine, I'm like Oh my God, I probably am. I think you're— I think you're right.

And then what we often see in these circumstances is the woman, maybe they go to a therapist or something, and the therapist says, you gotta let the leash go a little bit here, sweetheart. You know, you're— you are controlling. The guy's right, you do manage everything. And dude, you're gonna have to be comfortable with stepping up a little bit more. You've been kind of— you've been kind of sitting back and going, you just take care of it, sweetheart, just one less thing for me to worry about. So when the roles were reversed Now we have to teach the woman what? Patience. Which is, this dude is not going to do things 100% the way you want it done. You're saying like, you plan the date night Friday instead of me planning it. You're gonna see the— you're gonna hear what he says about the restaurant and the movie after the restaurant or whatever, and you're going to be like, let it go. It's okay, you know, let him do his thing. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just because it's not the way you want doesn't mean it's not the right way. And so she has to be like, all right, I'll let it go. Okay, it's fine. There's There's an analogy in the business world. I read a book called, I think it's called Buy Back Your Time, which really stuck with me. And one of the things about an entrepreneur is you want to do everything. I bet you can relate to this. Like, I'll handle it, I'll handle it, I'll handle it. And eventually all these its that you have to do, it's too much. And you go, I have to let somebody else take care of this. And you're like, uh, I gotta let them do it. They're not gonna do it right. They're not gonna do they're not going to do it 100% the way I want it done. If I do it, I know it will get 100% of the way done. But if they do it— the point of the book was if they do it 80%, that's still better than you taking over 100%, getting stressed out and doing too much, and you're not as productive. Let them get 80% of the way there. It wipes it off your plate, and now you're— you can breathe more. You're able to do more stuff, probably stuff that brings in money and so forth. Same kind of thing with these controlling types, which in our world is usually the woman. Let them go. It's okay. He's gonna make mistakes. It's not gonna be the 100% the way. It may ding your respect a little bit, but still let him go. And what you'll eventually realize is, oh, I kind of like that he's taken over. I kind of like that I can put my feet up every now and then. Who knew that this partnership thing and how this works, right? Kind of funny how that works.

I heard one time, I don't know if it was on a book or a podcast or something, and Um, someone had said, speaking to women, you know, and about your partner, and they had said, he is not a broken version of you. And that hit me so hard. I probably heard that like, it was a while ago, it was probably like 7 years ago or something. That hit me so hard and it made me realize and, and just be awake that just because, like what we're saying, just because he doesn't do it the way I do it and need it or like whatever, it doesn't mean it's wrong. You know, and that really made me give some grace to, um, the man I was dating after my marriage, um, that didn't end up working out, but it did help. I learned, I, I learned, um, but man, yeah, a lot of the time we think like, well, he's not doing it right, he's just an idiot, you know, the weaponized incompetence, he's doing it wrong on purpose just to get out of doing it.

And sometimes, yeah, let's admit some guys I'm sure do that, but a lot of the time it's a dude saying like, I'm doing it the way I want to do it the way I— just because that ain't the way you want to do it, sister, doesn't mean it's the wrong way. Ah, just put it down, let me do it, right? It doesn't go well. And then you have a woman like, my man does nothing, and he's like, well, if you just let me— I shouldn't have to let you. No, no. And around, around we go. Yep.

And it— women thrive on consistency too. Like, the more you can be consistent with something, whatever that is, the more our brain can sit and like trust that. And that was one thing that I, I remember so much is like so many things were just inconsistent. Mood, his response, um, like sex, um, taking the trash out. Like, do it like, okay, you said you're gonna do the dishes after every meal, I'm gonna cook the whole meal, you're gonna do it. And then like that consistency wasn't there and it made me just not trust him and then get frustrated and then be like, well, I'll just do it. Consistency is huge for women. It makes us feel very safe. Very safe. Yeah, yeah.

There's, there's something, um, we hear often in my world when you have a guy who's been overly anxious and he's just always on top of the wife and she feels the weight of a lot of his emotion on her shoulders and she eventually backs off. It's like, I can't deal with this dude, he's too much. And she backs off and she's very distant, which makes him more anxious and he more wanting to reach out. And eventually he's like, okay, I learned my lesson. I will back off and I will leave you be. And what does the woman say? Based in a roundabout, in her roundabout womanese language, it's something to the effect of, I need to sit back and watch to make sure this is for real, this change, because I don't quite trust you. I don't. I hear you, husband, but I gotta see it. And so what does that mean? Days and weeks and months of consistent, I'm not going to smother you, I'm not going to hound you, I'm not going to pester you, I'm not going to guilt you into sex. I'm not going to do all these other things. I'm going to back off and give you the space and do my own thing, and we'll have the date night on Friday, and I'll coordinate. And yeah, the wife's like, yeah, right, I'll sit back and watch this. And it takes a while to earn that trust. That's what we're talking about here. Um, let me see. How much— this is Ryan again on Facebook— how much focus went off of the marriage when kids came along? I guess he's asking you that. When women have kids, the maternal instinct kicks in and the marriage is set on the back burner. Happened in my marriage. And I gotta say, Ryan, that is the number one thing I hear from men when I ask the question, Melissa, to men: when did the wheels fall off the relationship? Men usually go, if I had to pinpoint one moment, it was probably when we had a baby. Everything changed at that point. So you got a guy from the guy's perspective, and women hear this and go, oh Christ, here we go, roll their eyes. So the guy's like, um, I had this woman, we were very connected romantically, emotionally, everything was great. Two peas in a pod, partners in crime, let's have a baby. Yes, I was there for her and I helped her through all this, that, and then we had a kid. And I understand, a lot of men say this, I understand that a lot of emotional and physical connection can't happen for a while after the birth of a child. It's very traumatic physically and emotionally, and there's lots of— and I'm there, I'm there to help with the diapers and the feeding in the middle of the night. I'm there, I'm there. And then 6 months goes by and a year goes by and he's like How about us? What happened to us? And the response from a lot of the women is shame, basically. How dare you try to bring that back in? I'm not— either I'm not ready yet, or the worst response is, that ain't us anymore. We've moved, we've moved on to a new chapter, and the new chapter is primarily that of parent.

Yeah.

So if there's time for us, which I don't know if there ever is going to be, if we're lucky maybe, then we'll deal with it then. But until then, we got this, this, this to do. We have dinner. I'm stressed the hell out. Maybe if you did more around the house, dude, to help, maybe I'd have more time. And they go through that. And I'm not kidding, 4 or 5 years can go by pretty fast, and next thing you know, they haven't touched each other for a long-ass time. And there you go.

And you have another kid in the picture, and then somehow you make another one.

Oh, the boy— the guy's another kid, or you have another kid?

Yeah, you end up having another baby somewhere in there. Like, yeah, like the one time you had sex once in a blue moon.

Sex that you have, which is timed with her fertility. I don't think that's a coincidence. A lot of women become kind of baby-making machines, and they're like, um, yes, it's a not very romantic thing that happens, or, or kind of culture or whatever in the relationship, and it drives men nuts. And the overwhelming sentiment from his social circle, society in general, is one of, dude, that's just, that's just the way it is, man.

And the healed me, the version of the woman that I am now, looks at that and goes, oh my God, it like upsets my stomach because that— it should not be that way. But we have to take this like even back further, and I want you to have the perspective too because this needs to be changed. Women think that we are complete, we are whole, our job is to take care of those kids and that baby. Like, I am a good person, I am a good woman, I am a good wife. If I am a good mom. That's the way it is for a lot of women. So when that baby comes, it's like, this is my only job now.

Absolutely. And that's— it's Mother Nature doing its job.

And it's like, yeah, yes, but— and no one's teaching us. My mom didn't tell me, or my grandma, or like anyone in my environment. All my friends were also people having babies at the same time too, doing the same thing, and we're all like high-fiving each other. But no one's talking about like, hey girl, put that baby down and like go have sex with your husband, go out on a date night. Like, if you lose that connection— because guess what? This is what I wish someone would have said to me. Guess what? That baby, you're gonna blink and it's gonna be grown. It's gonna be off at school.

Bingo.

And I think we talked about that too on, on the podcast, of like, that was the biggest moment. Like, when they were little, I was getting all of that love and I didn't need it from him. I got hugs and kisses and love, and my tank was full from the babies.

There you go.

And then when they get to a certain age, you know, and it's rough when they're little because you're nursing or they're no sleep and they're into everything, but when they get bigger and then they go off to school, that was a really big change for me because now they needed me, but they didn't need me in the same way. And that woke me up to, hey, we don't have this connection anymore. You're not filling my tank at all. And I realized how alone I was, even though I had these kids. I was in a marriage and I'm like, hey, I really need your attention. And that was really hard to get back because we weren't working on it all these years.

A lot of resentment built up from him towards you and vice versa. And yeah, it can be— here's how I kind of explain it, and but it sounds very nihilistic, but it's realistic, which is Guys, if you look at this from a strictly like biological scientific point of view, that's kind of how it's supposed to work. It's supposed to be, we get— we're so hyper in love, let's have— let's do lots of sex and make a baby. Whew, job done. And male, you can run off and go do it with somebody else. And wife, concentrate on this new little one, concentrate on making sure they survive and everything. And dude, you help out with the survival of the kid, but you're supposed to proliferate the species, go elsewhere. And the guy has a wandering eye and he looks elsewhere, and the wife just kind of forgets about that. Side of it until she's ready to make another one, and then reignited and so forth. But we, as a strictly monogamous couple, kind of fight against that, go, no, we gotta, we gotta stay to work, work to stay together. What I've seen that has helped a great deal is a cultural influence of the family and so forth. If you come from a family where it's culturally known, hey, give us the baby, give it to Grandma, Grandpa, Aunt So-and-so, whatever, and you two go, go go away together for the weekend, go on a date. It's important you guys stay together and work together. That helps tremendously. If not, the natural tendency is to do what I described, which is drift apart slowly but surely, and it sucks.

Yeah.

And thankfully, I'm blessed to say that the culture of my wife's— my second wife, wife number 2, Natalie's family— is one of, you guys gotta stay to work together. Like, give us the kid, go beat it. You know, and what are you guys doing Friday? It's, it's just a given. Like, what are you two doing as a couple Friday? Where are you guys going? What time? When do I need to be here to watch the baby? That's just kind of what our family says. Didn't have that in marriage number one. Marriage number one was the culture is one of family, family, family, family. What about— not slap that down— family, fam— oh, okay, the messages. That's it. It's primarily family. And in how my marriage number one ended irony of all ironies is what I hear quite often, which is the romantic, erotic, sexual, whatever you want to call it, side of the relationship, which is kaput, gone. But, and I— did I desire that? Oh, hell yeah. Did I whine about it? Oh, hell yeah. But it was shot down, shot down, shot down. And then what happened? The old wifey said, I found somebody else. I'm like— and guys, this was like— I don't want to pretend this was yesterday. It's like 14 years ago, so it's been a while. Process. I've dealt with it, right? God bless her. Hope she's happy and everything. She's doing well and all that good stuff. But at the time, it was such a mind-blowing, like, what the hell thing. Um, again, uh, boundaries— you tell me if I'm crossing lines here, you don't want to talk about it, whatever. But was there, in marriage number one, was there any infidelity involved or anything like that?

No, no, no. I mean, he, he traveled a lot, but I knew he would never have an affair. Um, just not how he, he's wired. Um, and then me on my end, um, I definitely started talking to someone else after we were separated though. We were, we were done and separated, and it was crazy. I found myself talking with someone that just gave me all of the attention that I wasn't getting before. Um, and I, I took my vows very serious. I would never like have cheated. But man, the moment we were separated and I could talk to someone and we weren't the feelings that you got back.

The— you're alive all over again. And you can't just— you can't beat it. There's no competition for that.

And at that moment, there was no going back to the marriage.

There you go.

That—

if you do that while you're married, not separated, not divorced, you can see what a powerful force that is.

Yep, yep. But there— yeah, once I was like, this is what it's— it was like, you know, needing glasses and then putting glasses on for the first time. And someone was giving me attention in that way and talking to me and cared about how I felt and didn't even ask me about my kids, you know, like that wasn't part of conversation. I like had put glasses on, I could see clearly, and that's how it— that's how it felt to me. And it was very eye-opening, you know. And of course then he wanted to, to try and work on things, and I was gone. I was gone like mentally and emotionally from that marriage way before we physically separated.

That's what most women say, uh, most women in affairs. In fact, I did a, um, a poll of my audience. This was several years back, I think some 300,000 people I polled, and I put all the data together. I think I was using SurveyMonkey or one of those that does all the tabulation for you and everything else. And it was, have you cheated? Are you a man or woman, number one? And number two, have you cheated? And then the third question was, if yes, why? And it was something like 33% of the men said yes. No, no, excuse me, 36% of my male audience said yes, I did. And 33% of the women said yes, I did. And the number one answer given by men was, um, there was a lack of sex in the marriage, and so that opened me up to temptation. I had the opportunity, kaboom. The number two answer, and it was so common, was, I don't know, man, I was just stupid. I had one too many drinks. I was at a bar somewhere, blah blah, one and done, never happened again, never even contacted the woman again, admitted it to my wife right away, or I decided never to talk about it ever again. I put it out of my mind, very much able to compartmentalize and say oops and moved on, right? The women, on the other hand, it was— I had moved on from my husband years before. I disconnected from him. I, I hated his guts. He was a horrible person. He was a terrible husband. I was emotionally disconnected, so I really didn't see it that big of a deal to open myself up to somebody new because I'd already in my mind dumped him a while back. And so, and this was paragraphs and paragraphs of stories from the women of, this is what happened, this is what led up to it, this is why I don't like him anymore. And this is what justified in their mind the disconnection and moving on to another guy. I thought, what an interesting way of looking at it, which kind of points to— a lot of the guys come to me and say, caught my wife sneaking around, it ain't the first time, what do you think the chances are of us getting back together? And I usually say Not good, dude.

No.

Yeah, she moved on a while back, dude. She's gone. Let her go.

Yeah, I would say 5 years for me. Like, if I think about it, I was probably out of— on my way out, you know, if I'm really honest, probably 5 years. It was— I, I had kind of like checked out, and I'm like, now I'm— I just need to get these kids old enough, and I love them, I'm here, but No, it's done.

And now, in hindsight, a couple questions come up to mind. Yeah, you, you're separated, you're forming a connection to somebody else, and this brings up all kinds of feelings in you. Completely normal. Welcome to being a human being. In hindsight though, did you have that same kind of initial experience with ex-husband, the honeymoon phase?

Sure. Oh yeah, in the beginning. Um, looking back, there were red flags, like, to his personality, and that, like, he was never going to change, but I had the, you know, like, I'm gonna change you, um, mindset. But there definitely was the honeymoon phase in the beginning, and, um, the excitement, and he— I felt like he filled my cup. Um, but it did die pretty quick, and the red flags came out pretty quick. And then I just remember thinking, like, Well, I'm not going to start over. And it went back to the whole female timeline, you know, like, if I do this then, and I do this then, and then like that. Well, that doesn't work. And not the reasons to stay, you know.

But it's very pragmatic of you though, which is the opposite of romantic when it comes to the relationship thing, which, um, unfortunately for a lot of guys when they go to the— maybe they, they're their wife is nice enough to go to therapy. A lot of guys, a lot of wives that we talk to aren't. They're just like, I'm not, no, I don't want to open up to somebody. So they go, and a lot of this kind of stuff comes out, which is very hurtful to Mr. Romantic to hear. Like, for the past 5 years, I've been really disconnected from you. Well, then why didn't you tell me some 5 years ago? Because I don't want to lose my family, and I knew you'd freak out, and I knew you'd maybe want to leave, and all this other stuff. And our kid was 5, the other one was 8, and we're in the middle— we just got this new house. And the women are very pragmatic and kind of cold about it. Like, this is a business arrangement, this is a family thing, and the romance has gone a long time ago. That's really heartbreaking, but that's realistic for a lot of families out there. And in fact, one of the negatives that women hear from— oh, some men that I talk to, they'll paint their wife in really not glowing terms at all, like she's a monster. And I'm just like, so why are you with her? You don't like her. What are you doing with this woman? And a lot of men come back with, I, I don't like my— in a roundabout way, I don't like myself that much. I'm pretty sure if I dumped her, I wouldn't be able to find anybody else. How sad is that? Yeah, the only reason you're with this woman is because, yeah, I know she's a monster, but I suck. What am I gonna do? It's not a good— kind of pragmatic in their own way. They're looking at it like, I need a life partner, I need to go, I got the kids, I got this, and I'll probably be alone. Oh well, just suck it up. Not good.

No. And that kind of mindset too, like, I immediately go like to the mindset. I'm like, the way you think, like, just imagine like what you're going to attract into your life. And not even necessarily talking about a partner, but just having that attitude about yourself. Like, that is like, as a coach, the coach coming out me, that would be like one of the first things that I would want to dive into someone is like, why do you feel that way? Why do you think that way? Like, how do we change that? Because that's what you're going to just keep getting.

Yep.

You know, but my guess too would be that that woman probably beat him down in so many ways that contributed to him feeling that way about himself, you know, which is like so sad.

But usually, usually with hindsight you realize he was a broken little boy to begin with, which, which is why he got with a woman like that, which is why he put up with years and years of the bullshit. And that's where he's at now. And you're right that, that basically what we're talking about is insecurity. And the insecurity permeates everything in his life. With some, with some thought, he goes, yeah, that explains my job situation, why my friends always take advantage of me. I'm always the guy to go, I'm jump in my car and go help my friend, but nobody comes to jump to help me, right? And I keep getting passed over for the promotion while dipshit here next to me got the big raise and I didn't. And I was just like, oh well. And why? Because what am I going to do, go get another job? I probably won't be able to find another job. It's a scarcity mindset that just permeates everything in his life. It sucks.

Yeah. And then add it if you're taking that man and you have a woman that cheated on him, you know, that's even, even worse. Yeah. And that's why I think it's just, it's so important to like get that message across of it doesn't matter how old you are. I don't care if someone's listening that's 30, 40, 50, like it doesn't even matter. You can change that. You can go from that man that you're talking about to someone who is confident, rebuilds his life, finds the partner that he wants and dreams. But it, it does take work. It takes a lot of work. And if you get out of a relationship and you don't work on yourself and you just jump right into another one— and I had to warn my brother of this, um, I'm like, you're just gonna attract the exact same woman, you know? And And it's hard. I know it's really hard for guys to get that help and do that therapy after, but I'm like, if you want to change the cycle and get what you deserve, man, you, you need to help. You need to like read your book, you need to learn how to like access these tools and truly make a change. And I know that's hard at first.

Oh yeah, that's— there are two things that piss people off a lot that I bring up. One is maybe you should quit drinking for a little while because it's causing a lot of chaos in your life. There's a lot of culture around drinking. There's a lot of people that are like, you don't understand, I have to have alcohol in my life, it's part of who I am, it's part of whatever. People really get pissed about that. And thing 2 is, hey dude, maybe you should ease up on the women for a while and just focus on yourself. You just went through a horrible divorce and everything else. Men and women both are like, who are you to tell me to do that? Who are you to rob me of my happiness? I have been without sex for so many months or years, I deserve it.

Yeah, I'm gonna be happy.

And it's like Have at it, dude, but I'll see you in 6 months when all this blows up in your face and you have chaos all over again. Yeah, probably. I'm not bullshitting you, 90% of the dudes that I work with don't listen to my advice and jump right into another relationship because it makes them feel really, really good. And to your point, they've been without for a long time, they've been treated like shit for a long time, and here comes a cute little thing at the office going, I like your shirt, and he's done. That's it, it's over. And he's moving her in with her kids 3 months later, and you're like, dude, what are you doing? You don't understand, she's perfect, she's this and that. Well, sure, she's got this red flag, that red flag, and this other red flag, but she makes me feel amazing. Yeah. And my sense of security is so in the toilet that I'll take whatever I can get. Yeah, it's horrible. I don't know if any of you guys can relate to any of that. Um, Ryan asking, do you think that's why a higher divorce rate in second marriages? You know, I don't know necessarily the stats behind that, um, or What you're pointing to, Ryan, is why I think it's a higher rate. I think in, in general, if there is in fact a higher rate of divorce within second marriages, it's because you're more comfortable doing so and you've been there, done that before, and you realize, I can overcome this, it's not that big a deal. And you're more sensitive maybe to bad things. So when you see that bad thing, you're like, I'm out, I'm out, done this before, I'll be fine.

I think he meant like a higher divorce rate because they rush into a second relationship.

Oh, I got you, got you. It could very well be. Yeah.

That's when that had popped up too. But yeah, I think on average, um, most people remarry within 5 years.

Men quicker than women. Yes, more so and quicker.

Yeah, my ex already— yeah, he's already married. He got married maybe not even 2 years after we were divorced. I don't even think it was that long. And, um, it's funny because my girls are old enough now where they like come back and spill the beans and tell me everything. And I'm like, I don't need to know all of that. I don't need to know any of that.

And, uh, did he have another kid with the new wife?

No, no. Um, and, uh, it's just interesting because I'm like, yeah, he didn't change. Like, the same problems. I'm like, I can relate to what you're saying too.

It's familiar. Yeah. Ninja Spam asks, was accountability hard for you? I presume he's talking to you. And what recommendations would you give for people who who are struggling with partners who refuse to be accountable. This is something we hear all the time in my world, is that my wife will not say I'm sorry, my wife will not say you're right, dude. You're— she just— she'll go to the grave saying nope, you're wrong, I'm right. Then no accountability.

Yeah. Oh, accountability for me was hard because I'm the one that ended the relationship. I'm the one that was like, I'm done, we're over. Like, I'm, I'm the one that did that. And it was in the beginning because I was in such a— I wasn't healed. I wasn't doing the work. As soon as we separated, I went to therapy and I was like, I, I need help. We need to figure this out on my own. We were trying to do couples before, but it was so much like, I emotionally carried this relationship. You weren't filling my cup. I gave and gave and gave, and I took care of the kids so you could advance your career. And it was just like I was giving all the reasons why it wasn't my fault. And after I did work on myself that's when I started to realize, like, no bitch, you played just as big a role in the falling of this marriage as him. And, and I, I did. It's true, you know. I didn't give attention and love when needed, and I focused on too many other things. I didn't make him a priority. I didn't communicate, you know. Um, it really bothered me when he would travel and like we just wouldn't talk. And I, I want to talk all the time. I want to be like I just— this just happened.

I—

this is just— I just did this, the kids just did that, and he like didn't have the time. And so then eventually it was like he would travel and we just wouldn't talk. And I never said that. I never said, you know, that really bothers me that we don't talk every night. And I was like, well, he doesn't want to talk to me, so then I don't want to talk to him. Terrible attitude.

Yeah, terrible. And you know, a lot of guys can relate to that. It bothers me that my wife doesn't like to text back and forth, and bother— but it's been kind of hammered into us And there's some validity to this, which is, yes, some of your behavior is kind of needy and it's very un— it's very unattractive, and you need to cool it with that dude. There's like, again, with this delicate balancing act of, wifey, here's what I need as a dude and as your partner in crime here. This is, this is what I'm cool with. I like the text messages when you're gone on your trip or you're at work or whatever. Would it kill you? Are you cool with maybe like at lunchtime shooting a text? That's not needy. It's a guy going, this is kind of what I like, and that's what I need. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. But the problem is, Melissa, what if she goes, no dude, what? No, that's weird. Well, then you know you're kind of mismatched, and you're like, oh. And you know you got a woman who's not on the same wavelength as you. Yes, the woman that you have 2 or 3 kids with already. Oh, in the house. And then you're like, oh, I don't want to— they don't want to tiptoe towards that because it's very uncomfortable to face like We're just mismatched in that way, and she's not like that. And maybe this is something I should have uncovered 10 years ago. Oops.

I know, I know.

So you avoid it, and you're just like, oh well, not a big deal. And you stack up like 50, 100, 500 oh well, not a big deals year after year after year, and kaboom, it just implodes.

Yep.

There you go.

Yep. Yeah, and someone who doesn't— I mean, that just says a lot about the person. If they don't take any accountability. Like, that's one thing that they, they teach about. I don't know who they is and who's teaching this, but when you enter the dating world, um, after divorce and you're an adult and it looks nothing like it did when you were 18, you know, you're like, what is— what are all these apps? What is happening right now? One of the biggest red flags, um, that they tell women when you go out and you talk with a man on a date or whatever is What accountability does he take for his divorce or previous relationship ending? And that's one of the questions you're supposed to ask a man, like, you know, what happened? And like, well, what role did you feel like you— not a, you know, questionnaire, like drilling them, but just being like, yeah, just trying to engage for do they take accountability?

Do they see their role in the downfall? Same thing with dudes. Dudes hear the same thing. So if you got a woman that's like, I've been with 5 boyfriends, husbands, whatever, and it was abuse, and he's an asshole, narcissist, abuse Guess who's going to be the next on that list? It's going to be you, because somebody didn't go, yeah, I gotta— number one, my picker's off. I keep picking all these guys, so I'm trying to do better at that. And here's what I did wrong in the relationship. If you hear that language, that's awesome. That's like a green flag. But that's pretty rare, Melissa. We don't hear that very often.

Yeah, no, men or women, I'm sure. Yeah, that's, that's a big one, accountability. But it says a lot if someone can't step back and say It does. You know what, this, this was, this was my role.

Yeah, guys, if you could do me a favor, guys and gals, whoever's watching, if you could pause for a moment and click on like, that always helps out these. Hit the little thumb up wherever you're at, YouTube, Facebook, that tells all these different channels that this is something that other people should see. Thank you so much. Or give it a share, give me a like wherever you're watching this for the account, for the stream itself, helps out a great deal. And then we got Ben here, who is a doctor, by the way, Dr. Ben, who is a member of the Brotherhood. Hello, Dr. Ben. He says As you have always said, when you start getting what you have been missing for so long, it is very powerful. Yeah, so when you get that attention and that positive whatever— Melissa, this is something I hear all the time— a guy is, uh, out of shape, low self-esteem, no self-worth, with a woman that treats him like crap. Years and years go by, and then finally he loses weight, and then finally he goes to the gym, and he's feeling far more confident about himself. 'But I still want to work on this marriage, darn it, and I'm putting in the work.' I'm like, 'You got to be patient, dude.' 'Oh, I'm patient. I've been at this for 10 years. I can wait another 5 years of going to therapy and the work and be patient with her as she tries to feel safe with me' and all other mumbo jumbo. And then, 'Hey, you're cute, what's your name?' Some girl at the gym, whatever it is. Doesn't even have to be that, like, overt. It could just be like, 'Hi.' do you come here often? And he's like, oh, attention from a woman, she's cute, she's at the gym, she's, she's health-focused like I am. Those guys are done, they check out like that. They finally get a little crumb of attention and they feel those little feel-good chemicals, and they haven't felt that in a long time, if ever, with this woman. And they're just, they're done, which is where the old boundaries come in. Way easier said than done. Do you see in your world, the fitness world, How often do you see the old infidelity? How often do you see relationships break up, not necessarily as a result of somebody getting better, but that's a piece of the puzzle? How often do you see that?

It, it happens quite a bit. Um, and I see too, I, I see it happening before it happens. I always try to warn when I see the signs. I'm like, girl, be careful. Um, and not necessarily with my clients, but just I don't know, sometimes with the clients. But when a woman— if we flip it— when a woman is like trying to get in shape and a man isn't on, you know, he's like, you do you, but I'm still gonna have my beer and my pizza, um, and she's trying and she's changing and she— those chemicals are going and those endorphins and her hormones are starting to balance out and he's not doing anything and she's not getting that attention from him anymore. Um, because you'd think that that would like help and improve, but he almost— I see this a lot, that they get jealous and like, who you getting?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, that insecurity.

You're sitting there watching. We have friends that do the same thing, you know. You're trying to get in shape and the friend's like, let's go out for pizza. And you're like, dude, I told you I'm trying to lose weight here. And he's like, yeah, you big pussy, come on, let's go eat. And you're like, dude, same thing with the, with the spouse.

I tell Yeah, I tell the people like, you need to be careful because you're going— if you don't have that connection with him in that way, you're going to seek out that connection with someone else. Like, you're human, it's going to happen, you know. You're not getting your cup filled by him. And be aware of this. How can you guys get back on the same page? Like, oh, that would never happen, that never happened. Then I see it happen.

Yeah, we see it all the time. So, and it's not just like what's going on within your head. You're surrounding yourself with a new culture of people. You're, you're fist bumping people in the gym. You're all there with this mission of getting in shape, and you're all talking about your macros, and you're all talking about your supplements and your hormonal this and that, and you're all in that world now, which is a real winner mentality, self-improvement mentality. And then you go home to dude who could very well be the sweetest guy in the world. He could be awesome. He could be. But He's just not part of that world, and he's just like, I'm happy being 120 pounds overweight, and I'm happy just, you know, whatever. And he's not part of that, and he's not as attractive at a very admittedly kind of shallow level, but that's something, that's a component of it.

Yeah, being on that same level with her fitness journey, like, and it doesn't have to be like completely insane. If someone is like into marathons or whatever, and you're like, you just lift, like, that's okay. But as long as you're both like we go to the gym, we kind of eat like the same, like we're on the same like path and, um, live this life together. You might be a little bit more, whatever, but as long as you're on that together, that's really helpful. I see a lot of imbalance.

Um, let's put this out there. This is horrible to say, it's very shallow and it's somewhat subjective, but this is a phrase that I've used often. Because I've seen it for a decade plus. Couples where there is an objective, um, attraction mismatch, it is not sustainable. It's just, it's just the way it is. There's just too much influence one way or the other. There's too much of a mismatch. The attention this one's getting versus this one, the new culture that this one is in versus that, whatever it is, it's just, it's not sustainable. And so we have a lot of insecure men that are like my wife has lost 50 pounds and now she has a new Instagram account and she has a sponsor for spandex and she— I'm starting to feel a little insecure about this. I'm over there going, you should. It's— you guys are going like this. She's going down a different road. Jump to attention and join her or have your own little mission or something, or resign yourself to the fact that bye wife as she runs off to the distance, so to speak.

I love that you're saying that because it It's so true. Yeah, I, I have so many—

awful to say, shallow, whatever you want to put. I don't care, it's true.

Oh, hey, you know, I mean, we're here to speak truth and help people, right? And I can't tell you how many women passed on our episode together, um, to their significant other. Yes. Or like, I had a lot of people be like, hey, I sent this to my girlfriend and she needs to send that to her husband, and it got passed on by like other people. Because that was one of my big questions for you, was this whole topic, like, what do you think? And I just think we need to be brutally honest about it, you know. And I had, I had a client almost a year now, and she, um, we actually met like at a retreat, and we came back and she's like, I, I want to change. And we got going, and, you know, she was feeling good and losing weight and like loving herself, you know, in a way, and rediscovering who she was outside of being a mom and a partner. And the husband was like, yeah, yeah. And then when she didn't— I don't know, he wanted to keep participating in like, you know, drinking or partying and other things. And she's like, I don't do that anymore, you know, like, no. And like, they started going on different paths.

Exactly.

It caused a big riff in their marriage. And I eventually got a phone call from him and he was like, you're ruining my marriage, that kind of thing. Uh, at first it was just more like kind of like challenging, like, you know, I just don't really know what's going on and she's not my wife anymore, like she's just not the same. And I'm like, yeah, she's pretty fucking amazing, isn't she? And he like— I don't think he was expecting me to say that. I think he was expecting me to be like, oh yeah, well, I'm sorry, oh, you know, or no, or, you know. And, and I was like, yeah, she's, she's pretty cool, she's doing really cool things. And That got to him. Then I got a call the following week and he's like, I need to start. I need to start. So over the last 6 months he's been getting caught up, but that really impacted him. He's like, I turned into this whiny little bitch. And he's like, I was complaining that she was gone. I was complaining about the food, um, just like everything. And he sabotaged her birthday.

Oh, we see that all the time where the wife sabotaged Mr. He's on testosterone now, he's working out now, and she's just like, I baked your favorite cake. And he's like, I told you I don't want cake. And she's like, but you've never turned down chocolate cake before. But, and he's like, I think this woman sabotaged me. And you're like, yeah, that's exactly what she's doing. She feels very insecure about your changes and she's trying to pull you back to her little world. Sad, but that happens. In my book, The Dead Bedroom Fix, my best-selling book, I have a chapter all about getting in shape. And this is what so many people push back on of that's shallow, it's nonsense, it's horseshit. Who cares about that kind of stuff? Why would a lot of people be so resistant to that? I think there is, let's be honest, a real cultural message. And sorry, Melissa, I think a lot of you ladies are pushing it more so than the men, which is that kind of stuff doesn't matter. The visual stuff does not matter. Women don't care about that stuff, dude. You could be 400 pounds, who gives a shit? We don't care. We're women. We're, we're, um, we're more holistically altruistic, altruistically softer in that way. You guys are the ones that like the big boobs and the butts and the We don't— yeah, we don't care about that kind of stuff. And so we take that to heart and go, cool, to the buffet I go. You know, who— she doesn't care about that, then I don't care about that. Because a lot of what I do is gauged around what women like and don't like. And then to hear this opposite, they're just like— and I've had— and I, I think I told you this in the podcast, I can't remember— that I had a man who I believe was a Harvard professor— not to call him out— message me very early on when I wrote the book saying, um, I threw down basically your book in disgust over the whole getting in shape thing. This— he called it misogynistic. He called it very lowbrow, very stupid, Neanderthal kind of, you know, guys lift weights, get in shape, it's important that you have confidence and look good. God forbid. He was like, here we go, this is such shallow nonsense. I can't believe you're pushing this out to your audience. I hope you fail miserably. It, it hurt his feelings. He didn't like to see that kind of thing. And I don't know whatever happened to that guy, but I have a feeling things didn't go too well for him and the wifey. And you're, you're pointing out exactly why.

I, I have so much to say. And I'm going to be honest and I'm just like, if women are listening to this, like I'm going to hurt feelings for them, but I think it's mostly guys. The women that are saying that, like it doesn't matter. They're probably overweight and out of shape. Okay, and when— if, if we said it mattered and he has to start getting in shape, we're going, well, shit, then I need to start getting into shape, and I don't want to do that. Like, you know, he should love me for how I am and no matter what I weigh. And, you know, the women that are in shape, or at least working out and taking care of themselves— like, it doesn't even matter what you, like, physically look like, because if you keep going, you are going to get a body that you're proud of. That's what consistency does. Um, but they, they're not saying it doesn't matter because they realize how much it does matter. And yeah, if he starts getting in shape and that part does matter, that means I have to start getting in shape. That means I got to put in more work, but I love Netflix every night. I don't want to go to the gym then.

That's tough.

I love my wine weekends with my ladies, and that means I can't drink as much alcohol. I'm not going to give that up. So yes, honey, you be fat and I'm gonna be fat with you.

And then, but the irony of all ironies is that woman could very well one day wake up, and it's usually kind of her little social circle that wakes her up to it. A lady at the office says, you want to join me in exercise class? No thank you. And then Susan joins Mary at the exercise class and she's like, now I feel left out, my work buddies are going, so okay, I'll go. And kaboom, and she's on her journey and away she goes. And the husband's like, I thought this kind of shit didn't matter. We could flip the genders. I'm sure it happens all the time. And then Ben says, Ralph, you have said this over and over. Yes, I have. Um, I would exercise every day, says Kerr244, until I noticed her scrolling, watching Netflix for 5 hours a day. Nothing is more unmotivating than a lazy spouse. Well, I would push back on that, Mr. Kerr, to say you kind of should do your stuff regardless of what the old spousey there does. I mean, do you gauge your job performance on what she does or doesn't do. And you're kind of your own little autonomous human being. You shouldn't let others dictate that kind of healthy behavior. It's easy for me to say, I know, but that's— I think any therapist would tell you the same thing. And I'm not a therapist, just a dude who's done this quite a bit. Uh, John asked a question on Facebook. By the way, I want to be cognizant of your time. Are you good on time? You're good?

Yeah, no, I'm good. Just going to the gym after.

I need to do the same. Uh, John from Facebook asks, why— what did each of you believe about marriage before you were married, and what turned out to be wrong? Well, that's a good question.

That's a really good question.

I will start in very broad terms. Um, I was very naive about, uh, the security of it, meaning once you say I do you can just let it go and relax and do whatever, say whatever. How— that's not true, because I was a very anxious person and I was very guarded in what I said or did. But regardless of how guarded I was, regardless of how anxious, whatever I was, um, I always had this blanket of security of this will— I know what's coming tomorrow, I know what's coming next week and next year. I can relax in that way, which is good. That's called security. That's awesome. But it can also lead you to some not-so-nice behaviors and lead you to behaviors where you don't work on it, you don't you don't care, you don't whatever. That was very much the theme to me in a relationship. And I quickly learned, like, eh, not so fast, buddy. Just because your mom and dad never divorced or whatever and all this other stuff doesn't mean that that's, that's the case for everybody. What do you think?

Right. Um, I had that same, like, false sense of security too in several areas. Like, I just thought, you got married and he's not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere. Like, we can just be whatever and whoever because we're married. We took vows, so we can do whatever we want. You can't— divorce is not an option. Like, you know, which means you just, you can kind of do whatever you want because you have to love me. Like, we're married.

That's perfect. You have to love me.

You have to love me.

He or she doesn't. No.

Um, and the other thing I used to think about marriage too was like love was enough. And, and, you know, society and movies and all of that does not help. And how girls are taught to just be a princess and the prince is going to come save you and he's going to love you and then just happily ever after. And I just always thought love was enough. And I know now, oh, love is not enough. There has to be connection and work. And you have to choose, just like fitness, like, right? Like, if you are on your grind and you're doing this, like, you have to wake up every day and choose I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm not gonna sit here and down donuts. Like, I have to choose this journey I'm on. You have to choose to be in that marriage every day. How can I give? How can I fill his cup? How can I communicate what, what needs to happen? Like, you've— it is an active choice. And if it's not, that's when you start to veer off, you know. If it's not an active choice to be a fit person or be on your grind and, and do all these things. Like, oh well, then here comes the exception, you know. Well sure, let's just do like burgers and fries tonight. Let's drink. Like, oh, this one time's not gonna matter. And the same thing happens with the marriage, you know. And yep, that person's not looking that bad. Well, maybe, you know, a text isn't gonna hurt anything. Or they're just my, you know, what do they call it, my work husband. They're just my work husband.

You're tiptoeing towards the line there. Yeah, and it's so easy to cross. That's probably something that I also learned, just how important those boundaries are and just how freaking easy they are to cross. Just like that. This is a part of me as I bump the microphone. So many people are under the impression of, I, I'm not wired that way, I don't, I don't do that kind of thing, whatever that thing may be. Um, talking to somebody else, fooling around with somebody else, drinking, drug, whatever it is. You don't really know until you're put in those positions. And when you're put in those positions, that's where the old proverbial boundaries come into play more than ever. So when you're that dude who hasn't— maybe your wife had a baby 8 months ago, when the, in the romance and connection is down, and you're like, I'm gonna take a day for myself, damn it. And wife says, go have fun. You're like, yay! And I'm out in the club with the friends, and here comes a little 28-year-old that your wife cannot compete with. Who looks like a million bucks or whatever, and she's dancing and grinding on you, and that's where you go, guys, I'll see you later, it's been fun, you know. But a lot of guys go, let me just exchange numbers with her, and I feel good because of it.

And it feels so good.

If that sounds strangely specific, I've heard that story many times. And that's— you're a human being, you got to know what your boundaries are. And you tiptoe close to that line over and over again, you're bound to cross it. Uh, to choose is to lead, says Christopher. Well, that's a very deep saying. I like it. Um, what does choosing your partner look like now versus then, says John.

Very good question.

That's a good one. I'll let you take that one. So how do you approach the—

let me—

hey, let me be blunt. How has your luck in the finding a dude department been since the divorce?

It has been very interesting. Oh, do I have stories.

Do tell.

Oh yeah, I— well, of course, right after my marriage, I, um, I don't know, maybe, maybe 9 months after the— like, it was a divorce, I started dating someone, and that relationship lasted over 3 years.

Oh wow.

And, uh, 2— about 2 and a half, not quite 3. And, um, we ended up living together. He moved in. Um, and what's crazy about that situation and why and how it ended was Um, I was working, I was building my life and my business because I was put into a position of like, you have to, like, now you— now it is a must. Um, and I was doing great and I ended up buying my own home and, you know, really rebuilding my life. And he kind of was— he didn't have to pay rent, like, he didn't, he didn't have to do certain things.

He heard his dad— did you get with a loser?

I did, 1,000%. But he loved me.

Oh, I was gonna— but I was gonna ask, like, what other boxes did he check? Was he the bad boy, or was he the really sweet guy? Was he the super romantic? Like, he must have— super sweet.

Yeah, super sweet. Loved me, gave me all the attention. Like, it, it was great. And all the things that my husband didn't do.

There you go.

But he didn't provide, and he, he always let me. And I felt bad, like, I paid all the bills, you know, and he worked and he would contribute some time, but it wasn't like half. And then I built this resentment of just like, okay, I'm doing like all of this. I realize you hurt your back. I realize you had to have a surgery. I realized like all this stuff happened. But then I was like, you lost respect for him. And I got very much stuck in my masculine. I couldn't relax. I couldn't come out of that, um, because I couldn't depend on him.

Yeah.

And, and that was— that, that was rough.

Um, yeah, we hear version of that from guys all the time. I had super hot, awesome sex with this woman, and one thing led to another. Now I'm in a serious relationship with her, and then I realized she's kind of an idiot. Then I realized— then I realized that she's kind of a loser, and all she does is sit around and spend money and scroll her phone. But boy, she's hot, and that hot gets you pretty far as a woman, as you know. So a lot of men put up with a lot of horseshit as long as you're hot and giving them physical whatever. And then, yeah, but the honeymoon phase, the honeymoon phase passes, and eventually he's like, I just don't like this person, what was I thinking? And yeah, we've all been there some way, one way or another.

Yeah, we weren't, we weren't equal, and at all. And then, um, I dated, I went out on dates, but I took a really long time before I even got on an app or said yes to a date. Um, and then my next relationship— maybe, maybe we could do a whole other live on that one because, um, that turned out horrible. I ended up with someone that was a complete narcissist. And I know that word and that term is thrown around so loosely now, um, but I thought he was the exact opposite of him. So I went from here to—

you're You're swinging the pendulum back and forth, aren't you?

Trying to figure that out. And, uh, I— and he led in the beginning, and like everything that the other one didn't do, like, he did. And then about 6 months in, I started to see like the temper and the anger and like the gaslighting, and I'm like, this doesn't feel good. And then he started, you know, really yelling. And that story has a crazy ending, like you wouldn't even believe if I told you.

Um, this bouncing back and forth thing I hear all the time from both sides. I, I knew you would. There was a woman in my life who did the same thing where she would bounce from bad boy to sweet guy, about bad boy to sweet guy, and she unfortunately married them all. Um, so she had like a string of like 4 or 5 marriages with this. So not good. But I— something we hear from guys a lot is, especially guys that have a lot of experience with women, so you have a guy who's like a former Playboy player type guy who's with a lot of different gals in the past, but they're all, quote, crazy. None of them are wife material. So he's like, to hell with that crazy world of clubs and easy sex and everything. I'm gonna swing the pendulum all the way over here to, frankly, Miss Boring. Like, she's not the sexiest, most party gal in the world, but she's got a good head on her shoulders. She's a sweet person. She's smart. We match intellectually. Finally somebody I can bring home to Mom. And then a year or two later, and kids or whatever, and he's like, she's boring as hell. She's boring in the sack. She doesn't have a sexy bone in her body. And I knew this from day one, but she— I swung the pendulum and she checked some other boxes, which was she was not crazy, she was not this and that, and she didn't make my life hell. But right, but the honeymoon phase kind of masks a lot of stuff. You get, you get enough sex done in that early part for a guy that it's good, this is great. And then, oh crap, now that we're— real life is settled in, she's not like that at all. She's—

well, just like you said before, like, that level of attraction has to match, otherwise it won't work in that energy level.

So, but how do you— with that honeymoon phase masking so much, how do you find out who's underneath all those feel-good chemicals? And from my answer to that is time, you know, really get to know them and date them for a while and see how they deal with life and everything else. But that goes against the female imperative: I don't have time, I gotta make babies here. I know, when you're in that phase, not necessarily if they already had kids in divorce phase.

So it's tough.

I always say a year, like a good year through every holiday, birthday, uh, before 36 months before marriage or moving in together or marriage or that next real step of whatever it may be. Yeah, yeah, past the dating phase, give it a good 3 years is what I say. But a lot of people are like, that's quite a lot. Yeah, I know, but a lot happens in 3 36 months goes by like nothing. But then again, we have the whole, yeah, but if— what if I'm on, you know, month number 27 and I realize that he or she is a dipshit and I leave him? Now I've just wasted 27 months with this person. I got to start all over. And yeah, welcome to real life. I don't know what to tell you.

That's true.

And it's not necessarily a waste. I'm sure you had awesome time during that. It's just because it ended horribly or whatever doesn't mean all that was for, for nothing, right? Such as what you learned.

You—

there you go.

I wouldn't know what I know now had I hadn't gone through those things. Like, I learned so much by failed relationships or even just crappy dates, you know, or good dates. Like, that's how you learn. That's how I'm gonna find my ultimate happiness, you know, is because I've learned through all of that.

Question: do you see yourself in one long-term relationship? Are you hoping to find Mr. Right?

Um, I am dating someone right now. Um, and so far it's like I'm not way over here and I'm not way over here and I'm somewhere in the middle and it's really, really good.

Yeah. How long has it been?

Um, about 6, 7 months.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, I think we're in 7 months now. Um, and it's, it's nice because he is masculine and I am learning to fall into my feminine. Someone had asked like, what does choosing your partner look like now versus then? And I can see now what it looks like to choose that relationship and to choose that person. And every day, you know, you have to work on that communication and communicate with each other. I know a lot of people that, like you said before, guys don't want to like talk every day or like say that I need that, you know. And, and he will tell me that, so I listen. And if he doesn't, I ask what he needs, you know. Um, what can I do better? I ask a lot of questions now, and it just— it, it does look very different. Um, and being single for so long now too, you know, I have a lot of guys come to me in the gym. I have a lot of people like say stupid stuff to me, and before I would entertain them. I would, oh, okay, you know, like have conversation. Now it's like I know where my boundaries are because I know how I feel about this person, and I know where my boundaries are, and I'm like, in relationship, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, I dismiss it. And I didn't realize how important that was, as stupid as that sounds. Yeah, um, what, I'm just being nice, I'm just being friendly, I talk to everyone.

Boundaries are tougher for women, I think. I'll just put that out there. I don't, you know, may disagree, but what I've seen is a lot of women are, I don't want to be a bitch, I don't want to be seen as this antisocial, I don't want to, so I will invite a lot more in. I think men tend to have an easier time just ignoring when something doesn't quite bother them. Plus, we don't have as many opportunities as the average gal does as far as people coming up to us trying to hit on us and everything else. The women deal with that a lot more than the average guy does. But, um, you know, the example I often give is the woman in the office who the office jerk comes up and gives her a massage on her shoulders, and she wants to say, buzz off, you're going to get fired, leave me alone. But instead, she just deals with it and just like and she didn't like it. So that's his signal that keep doing that, and he does it again and again and again. And then somebody tells the husband, like, did you know your wife gets massages at the office from Joe? And he's like, what the hell, why wouldn't you tell Joe to stop that? You must like it. And then all hell breaks loose. And kind of some version of that is kind of a common scenario where if you just learn some old boundaries and say, please don't do that, and you'd save yourself a whole bunch of drama. And that's what you're doing with, I got a dude, kind of committed to this dude, please get away from me.

It's so hard for us though. And I, I am like strong, confident woman, hear me roar. But I had a massage therapist, oh, um, that hit on you inappropriately, pushed the limit, um, where the sheet went, and I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm exposed right now, and I couldn't say anything.

That's almost That, that's almost get the police involved kind of thing.

How crazy is that? And, um, I'm like, and then it went into my head like, well, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm like, you know, maybe this is part of the profession.

This is what everybody does. Maybe, maybe I need to loosen up.

Maybe, yeah, it can't be happening to me. Yeah. And, um, and then by the end I, I'm like, I'm done, you know, like, I think my kids are texting.

Here we go.

And I was like, that feels better.

Goodbye.

Yeah, all good. And I just, I couldn't believe that even happened to me. Like, so what you're saying, it's, yeah, it is, it's very freeze.

You'll totally fight or freeze.

It's, and I'm a fighter.

Like, when I'm in a situation, fighters, you don't know until you get in those kind of situations. What? Yeah, I, I have a similar situation, massage and all. I had a little Asian woman jump up on the table and was just pulling like my leg back and the whole nine yards. And it was— I, I wasn't enjoying it. I'm like, this is a little too intimate. I mean, the woman was basically fake humping me right there on the table. And you laugh, but after the fact, I'm just kind of wide-eyed. And the wife's like, how was it? I'm like, well, I think I was molested. I don't know what just happened there, but that was, that was really out there. I wasn't about to go, hey sweetie, can you not jump up?

And, you know, I know What's wrong with us?

But, you know, in that kind of scenario, is it arguably tougher for the dude? Because there's almost like a, what kind of weirdo are you to not like this? And, you know, argument can be made either way. Yeah. So it's interesting when you're putting those positions, what you do and, and don't do, and how that can lead to some not so good stuff. Like, what if that massage therapist later goes obviously you liked it, here's my number. Or he, he has your number already in the system and he's texting you later that night and your dude's like, what is Joe the massage guy doing texting you? I, I don't know, I didn't ask for this, but he's saying like your butt looks really nice today. What the hell's that all about? That can lead to some not so good things.

It can, yes it can. Again, boundaries are very important.

Boundaries are very important. Good stuff. Well, I do need to skedaddle here soon, but guys, this has been awesome. Thank you. And Miss Melissa, This is awesome. We should do this again.

We should. This is great.

This is great stuff. Yeah, guys, any— anything else before we take— we do have some more questions here, but you know, I don't want to go on and on. He's talking about what recommendations you have for the apps and all this other stuff. There are so many. I mean, there's so many to choose from. Uh, recommendations: just be yourself. That sounds corny, doesn't it? But like, don't fake it and pretend you're a bazillionaire and you have abs when you don't.

With apps. Yeah, well, you're on the right track with apps. And as soon as you start talking to someone, FaceTime them immediately.

Oh, like, so, oh, so you know what they really look like.

Don't waste it.

There's too many filters, too many fake side weird angles, like catfishing and all the other stuff. All of it.

Get, get on FaceTime right away and then get on a— go on the date in person first.

One of the most common things we see is guys in that market is women lying about their age. Yes, that's, that's a more sensitive thing for ladies than it is for men. So, you don't look 37 there, Candace. Yeah, I'm 43. There you go. And the other thing is like, and I have 3 kids. Didn't mention the kids before. Everyone tries to make themselves— it seems like it's a natural tendency to make yourself the most youthful.

Yeah.

And available and less tied down. Both men and women do this, and it's like, just put it out there.

What do you guys do? Yeah, they're gonna meet you and see you in person eventually, and then I get really uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Yes.

All right, well, I'm gonna call it quits. And guys, I'm gonna put up here in the banner— hold on a second— if you are a dude and you would like to join my men's group, and we talk about this kind of stuff all day, every day. We have live meetings, live Zoom meetings, so we can talk face to face, so to speak. We have a discussion forum, we got courses, we got one-on-one chats, we get together in person in conferences in the US as well as Australia. You get all my books all kinds of cool stuff. And if you like audio content, I think we officially now have over 1,500 hours of audio content for our members to listen to in the, in the form of meeting recordings and my books and all kinds of cool stuff. So check it out. The Brotherhood is what we call it. help4men.com/join. Sorry ladies, it's for men only. Check it out. And Dr. Ben, he's a member, he says thank you. Well, thank you, Dr. Ben, for your awesome questions today. And thank you Ryan, Chris, Chris again, John. Good stuff, guys. Thank you all so very much. And Miss Melissa, the lovely and talented Miss Melissa, thank you so very much. And where can guys and gals learn more about what it is that you do?

Yeah, follow me on Instagram. I'm on there all the time, @itsmelissavogelfitness, um, and then also my website, itsmelissavogelfitness.com.

And the podcast, Bomb Life Podcast, which is where we met. Check it out. Yes, Miss Melissa, thank you so much once again for having me on. And guys, thank you so very much. We'll catch you on the next one. Toodaloo!