She Used a Vibrator… and He Called It Cheating - A Live Chat With a Female Follower

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting. Welcome, Miss Victoria. I was going to say welcome to the show. I don't know if this is technically a show. I can't I guess it is a podcast, a YouTube channel. I guess it qualifies as a show, but welcome. Thank you for doing this.

Thank you.

So let's just get right into it, shall we? Why in the world are we chatting today? You reached out to me. What's going on?

Um, yeah, I reached out curious about sort of the male perspective, um, I guess on sex toys, to just get right into it. Um, I sort of got into a disagreement with my now ex, um, you know, about the use of, uh, sex toys, you know, especially— well, given that we had a, uh, we have a— we had, I guess, a good, uh, fulfilling sex life where we were pretty much doing that like once every day or every 2 days, um, you know, but he still got upset when he found a toy and was saying that any real man would be upset about this. And that it was the equivalent of cheating. And yeah, there was no room for really a discussion about it. He just sort of got really angry and that was that.

Okay, so you guys were having pretty frequent sex, right?

Oh yeah.

I mean, I've heard a lot of guys having difficulty with knowing that their wife uses such devices, let's say. But it always comes from the perspective of, but she doesn't want me. So I've had some guys that I talked to that are like, um, she doesn't want anything. She says she may be asexual. She says she has no desire for that. She never thinks about that. And yet I noticed that her sex toys in, in her nightstand seem to be moving. Like, these guys will get really sneaky about it, and they will, like, you know, they'll position the, the vibrator in a certain way, and then they'll check every day and be like, I'll be darned, she's been Obviously she's been, you know, using this thing and she's— wow, whatever. But that's not necessarily your case. Your case is, no, we've been frequently getting it on. It's just that you have, if I may be so bold as to say this, relatively high libido. And you're like, I still want to do other things in addition to what we're doing. And by the way, you have every right to do so. You're an autonomous human being. If you want to do that, God bless you, have at it. But he's like, no. So And he's like, this is tantamount to cheating. Okay, so where does that come from? Why would a man think this? He is in essence insecure about himself and your relationship. Would you agree?

Oh yeah. And I would like to add another detail if I can, which sort of adds another little layer. I wasn't even using it on my own to like just get off. I was using it to prepare myself for when he was ready to have sex. So basically, he at that time was coming to bed really late. I knew he was going to want to still have sex, so I kind of just, you know, got myself ready, I guess. Um, so yeah, it wasn't even to— it wasn't even just for myself. It was actually to try to enhance our, our sex life.

Revving the engine, so to speak. Yeah, priming the pump.

Exactly.

Insert analogy here. So, um, okay, so does that point to some kind of insufficiency in the bedroom activity? Meaning when you and he get it on, it wasn't quite enough, so you needed the extra help? Which, by the way, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that from your perspective. Maybe from his perspective, does he see that as you shining a light on something that is pretty obvious to you and he both, that there's a problem with the getting it on and you need some— he needs some extra help?

Well, I mean, I would have hoped it would have led to a discussion that could have talked about this, but, um, you know, the defensiveness kind of got in the way. And, you know, it takes two to tango, and, um, I, I myself, um, I'm not very vocal about my needs, you know. I'm always kind of over-functioning. I'm a people pleaser type of person. And so, you know, I, I don't think I've ever really been vocal. So in his mind, you know, and our sex life was great, it's just Well, maybe it wasn't though, you know. I never really got off, you know. I enjoyed the physical closeness and the action, and I do have high libido, but, um, you know, the foreplay was sort of non-existent, hence the vibrator. And, um, yeah, yeah, but I, I just— it's my bad too for not really communicating. However, whenever I did try to communicate, it sort of— I was met with that defensiveness. So it's like, why would I bring something up if I'm gonna be sort of, uh, you know, tossed. I don't know, not really, um, yeah, seen and heard.

I mean, that's really big of you to admit, like, I needed more, but in his defense, I never did specifically say, hey dude, this is what I need, um, this ain't cutting it 100%, hence why I'm using this. No, you just kind of— were you kind of sneaky about it? Were you kind of, you know, ashamed of doing it? You were hoping he didn't find out about what you were doing?

Uh, not necessarily. I mean, there were times where yes, because there were other times where, like, I remember one time I thought he would find it, like, hot if he walked in and I was, you know, doing that, and, and he was not. He did not. It didn't go well. Um, so, you know, from that point on, I think I sort of— but we bought that toy together, you know. It's not like it was a secret thing or like I showed up with some, like, massive black long crazy thing that was— you know what I mean? It was like one that he knew about.

Gas-powered thing.

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Um, So it's like, yeah, it's just, I guess there's just, um, some defensiveness on his end and then the, you know, my inability to sort of express my needs on my end.

So, you know, there's one check mark in his favor where we could go to him and say, you know, what you guys do in the bedroom ain't cutting it. And then he could follow back with, well, she needs to tell me exactly what it is she wants. But In your defense, Victoria, we're not asking for like something very specific that is so specific to Victoria that there's no way on earth he could know what to do. We're talking about something that's pretty vanilla, duh, you know, when it comes to the act, which is what? Foreplay. Who doesn't know about that at this point? I mean, even if you were a guy that, let's say, is like addicted to pornography or something, pornography shows a lot of foreplay. You know, from man to woman and woman to man. It's kind of, it's kind of baked into the whole routine thing. We all know about that at this point, you would think. But not him. Or does he know, but he just has no interest? Is he kind of a selfish lover?

Well, I think, you know, to your point about, um, it being included in porn, I mean, I would say that, um, for a woman, I don't really think— I mean, you know, if you're inserting something into a woman or whatever, or even going down on her, that's not really foreplay for a woman. Like, the foreplay would be more like the massage, or— and I know there are some videos like that too, but you know what I mean. I think in most sort of the generic ones, maybe there's like 2 seconds, you know. It just takes women a lot longer, I think, to get mentally in a place to really be able to relax and sort of, you know, enjoy the experience. And also, like, I I'm not saying I want that every time, you know what I mean? Like, we have things to do. Like, we only, you know, we have a— we had a young child, so like, it's not like we had 2 hours every day to whip out like the massage oil. But, um, that being said, uh, yeah, I don't know if he— I think he really thought he was doing a great job.

Yeah. Um, there's this thought, and I say it often, that foreplay actually begins first thing in the morning. Good morning, honey. And it's not always— and it's not always sexual in nature. It's roll over, give her a kiss, good morning beautiful, give her a cup of coffee, you know, what's your day looking like today, texting throughout the day, miss you baby, how's your day going. These are all things that just are— they're touches, you know. In like the, um, the business world, when we do marketing and advertising to people, those are all touches to people. Don't forget about me, don't forget about us, don't forget about the product that we offer, don't, don't forget about the service. Hey, we're thinking about you. Hey, we're, we're touching on a pain point here for you. And then finally they pull the trigger and they're like, okay, I'm ready to buy from you. It's It's kind of similar in the sex realm. I think about you. I care about you. How are you today? What's going on? Little pats on the butt, little smooch on the cheek. None of these are overt. Let's just get to it. And unfortunately, a lot of men— it's like from A to Z, we'll call that. A lot of men skip all the stuff between A and Z, and they just go from A, all right, I'm heading to work, to Z, okay, we're laying down in bed at night after a long day. Let's just get to it. It's like, eh, it doesn't quite cut it for a lot of women. But yeah, there's, there's a lot of buts here. But in the man's defense, at the early stage of the relationship, he really didn't have to do a whole lot, or he did it and he didn't even know he was doing it. That foreplay, romantic, whatever you want to call it stuff, connection stuff. In our mind, it was so simple back then, and then we want to keep up that simple act and it doesn't quite work when you guys been together for so long and you have kids and everything else. You have kids, right?

Yeah, one, one, uh, toddler. He's two.

You have a two-year-old? Okay, well, that complicates things, doesn't it? Hey, yeah, that's exhausting just saying that out loud. We have a two-year-old. Oh, oof. So, okay, so he's somewhat selfish, let's say, but in— you're saying like he may be genuinely ignorant of What It Takes, all that stuff that I just mentioned. He may not even be the type that has that, like, in his programming, his wiring. He ain't wired that way. He's not Mr. Romantic, loving, sweet, over-the-top, sexy type of guy. Am I— I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that a good summation?

Um, yeah, for sure. Um, and he said that before, you know, that I'm just not a romantic guy, I am what I am. He's quite rigid, kind of difficult. You know, obviously he has his qualities too, but I think the main thing is, which you said right in the beginning, is the insecurity aspect. And I mean, there's so much more to this. I mean, eventually, you know, this did lead to him going to like happy ending massage places due to this insecurity, supposedly.

Let me, let me back up. I didn't quite hear you there. I want to make sure everybody heard because I know this, the full story. You emailed it to me ahead of time. But say again, where did you say this led to? What exactly?

Well, according to him, um, his insecurity because I guess I wasn't doing what I needed to make him feel loved and valued was to, uh, go to happy ending massage parlors and have sex with— yeah, I know— with women there.

So, so he's telling you in his words, you didn't give me attention, validation. Maybe these aren't his words, I'm reading between the lines. You didn't give me the attention, the validation, the love and romance and all that other stuff that he needs. How ironic. So his resolution for that was to go to the most unromantic, un— it's mechanical. I mean, he in essence went for like like it's almost like a car pulling into a garage for an oil change. That's in essence what he did. Like, I have a need, I need to get this out, here you go. But this doesn't jive too well with the previous thing you told me, which is you guys get it on pretty frequently.

Well, that's the part that gets upsetting to me, is that there were definitely times where he came home and unknowingly I, I had sex with him, you know, either right after or maybe a day after he had been going to these places. So that, to me, I mean, it's very, um, it's bizarre. And, and it is bizarre. Yeah, it wasn't a need for him in that way. Maybe it was just the validation of the women. I don't know. I don't really know what he got out of that.

Well, I can tell you, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm certainly not a therapist, but it takes somebody to sit down with him and just go Let's talk about it, dude. What's going on with you? I have spoken to some of these men who do this, and I can just tell you, you know, at the risk of painting with a broad brush here, your husband's got problems. Um, you're never going to be enough for him. Sorry, Victoria. Um, nobody will ever be enough for him unless he sits down with somebody and says, I got a problem. And it's ruining my relationships with people. I got a good woman here, Victoria. She's trying like hell to stay connected to me. We're very physical, probably more than 99% of couples, especially 99% of couples that have a 2-year-old in the house. For goodness' sake, Victoria, give yourself a break, right? There's a lot of men that are— want to give you a big hug, and I don't mean that in a creepy way. I mean, I mean, good for you. I mean that like a good, good for you way, like We would love to have a Victoria at home. You went above and beyond is what I'm trying to say. So here you got this guy that you're above and beyond with, and even when you do things such as trying to rev the engine with the vibrator thing, he's like, me no like that. You're like, well, I'm just trying to, you know, okay. And then he probably wants it frequently, and you're like, okay, we'll do it frequently. Cool. And then even with all that, he's going outside of the relationship And here's a good question for you, just curious, because either way it's bad, but if you found out that he was with a woman on the side, like in a genuine second relationship, a full-on affair versus what he did with these women for hire by the hour, by the whatever, probably not even that, would one hurt worse than the other?

Funny you should ask, Ralph, because, um, that was also something he was doing. I know, it just gets worse and worse. I know, I know, it's just pathetic. I feel pathetic about it. Yeah, it's just— yeah, he did have an emotional affair. He claims it was just emotional affair, but I found like condoms and his stuff, which I know the massage lady provided. Yes, and he still talks to that woman.

So Um, he's still what again?

Um, he still talks to her, like he never—

Oh, so that hasn't ended? That relationship has not ended?

Well, he claims they were just friends and this and that, and the condoms were his friend's condoms. And I'm like, bro, and I'm like, that's not even a good lie. Like, at least have some respect to give me a better lie than that.

Okay, so Victoria, I'm gonna make— I'm gonna get this really simple. We can put on the— we can put husband almost on the shelf and just say he is what he is. That's, that's him. Call him Bob. That's Bob. I hope that's not his real name. That would be a weird coincidence. Okay, Bob is Bob. Bob's got problems. Bob in his current state of development is not cut out for a long-term monogamous relationship. He's just got too much shit going on up here. Exhibit A, B, C. I mean, he's just got— and you're only probably seeing the tip of the iceberg. This probably isn't Bob's first rodeo as far as stepping outside a relationship. Has Bob been in marriages and other long-term relationships before you?

Not really.

Um, you know, we actually aren't married. I know, like, we have a kid, so that's arguably more of a long— okay, thank God that we're not, you know. We're, um, and actually, you know, I mean, that's— gosh. Um, but I'm not sure because prior to me, I mean, I really think he didn't have much actually experience. He— oh my gosh, the more I talk about this, he was in jail for a while. Um, you know, had some substance issues that he has since overcome, so kudos to him for that one.

Um, so he's an addict before, but he's sober now?

Not fully, but he's not using his drug of choice, so he's functional. He just drinks once in a while.

Functional alcoholic, we'll call him.

Sure.

Okay.

I know this, but this all points to why, why did I— I stayed with him, you know, after all this. So that, you know, all I can do is like, what the heck's wrong with me for like allowing this and for thinking I don't deserve better? Or I don't know what it is.

That's where I was going with all this, was we can kind of put him up on the shelf and just say he is what he is. Ain't no changing him. Um, he has shown you, Victoria, over how many years now together?

4 and a half.

4 and a half. Still relatively new relationship, but you have a 2-year-old. So 2 years into it, um, he had a kiddo, let's say. Um, That's who he is. Do you hold out hope that he's gonna turn things around and change?

Um, sure. I mean, when I met him, he was sort of like this upstanding Christian man. He was in recovery. I was the shit show mess. We actually— yeah, the way that we met was that— yeah, well, I had issues of my own with drinking, and so when we met, he sort of like was this like sort of safe place, and I, you know, he was helping me out. And, um, really the things started to go bad when I started to do better, really. Um, so I know there's like some control issues, and, and, you know, there's, there's— frankly, it's abusive. I've realized now. I mean, I was— he knew I was in no like mental place to really sort of agree to the thing, like to commit and things like that, and Yeah, I don't know, it's just, uh, that still gets held over my head, you know, this— my behavior 4 years ago, um, still gets used as like, well, you, you hurt me first type of thing. And mind you, I never cheated, um, you know, he said I cheated on him. He's been telling all his friends that I cheated on him first and stuff, which is bullshit. But, uh, yeah, it's just— it's— he's just a sick person, and, and I am too though, because otherwise any normal healthy person would have ran for the hills.

So, you know, and this is what is so, um, mystifying to so many people probably listening, listening to this. But let me just say this, and I'm— and this is not meant to belittle your experience in any way, but I'm just saying this to the guys out there listening. Guys, this should be, you know, um, evidence for you're not alone in your struggle. Uh, Victoria, I hear some semblance of this almost on a daily basis from men out there, such as, you know, I caught my wife in her fifth affair, and she's doing this, and she's doing that, and she drinks too much, and she's you know, telling everyone around the town that I'm horrible to her and blah blah blah. And everyone says the same thing to these men, which is, what in the world are you still doing with this woman? And they will say usually something along the lines of, I made vows, I married the woman, better for worse, even though the worst has apparently been, you know, for some of these guys, like decades. And then, um, I have— I got kids, I can't leave the kids. And then, but really what it boils down to when you really talk to these guys, it's probably the same thing that, you know, if you were really sit down, really think this through and maybe talk people like myself or others like licensed therapists that can really help you through this, I think you'll probably come to the same conclusion, which is, um, you just don't want to be alone. Um, you don't, you don't want to lose maybe You want to hold on to this dream of a wholesome family unit, probably something that you've always wanted. Am I right?

Um, I was never like a little— yeah, I mean, sure. I mean, once I had my kid, I wanted that, of course, but I was never like the little girl who dreamed of getting married and who dreamt of like a big white picket, you know, house with a picket fence. Like, um, you know, uh, but however, I do think I think you're correct. There's that fear of being alone for sure. Um, and then there's also just like deeply rooted insecurity that's probably stems from childhood stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. That's it. It all boils down to that, doesn't it? We're all just broken little kids trying to find our way. And some of us make a mistake and another mistake and another mistake and another. And that's what you're, you're just compounding the mistakes here. But you have the wherewithal and the brains to go, timeout, enough, you know, enough with the mistakes, enough with the— I recognize that I got a problem. You got a problem here. You got with the wrong guy under very dysfunctional circumstances. You were at the time a functioning alcoholic. Functioning, you know.

Oh, I was not— yeah, I was not functional.

I was a non-functional Okay, so you were in bad shape, addict. Really, you were a shit show. Not, not the best foundation for a relationship, period.

No.

And ask anybody who deals people with addictions and so forth, the type of person you meet while you are in that state is usually not the best mate in the world, are they? And even though he had this veneer, meaning this, this fake coverage of, I'm a good Christian and I'm in recovery, and I'm gonna— and even though you're like, that's exactly what I need in my life, and this is the stable force that I need, you recognize after a couple years, probably, maybe even sooner, like, oh shit, probably not the best decision in the world. Oops. Of course you're not going to find Mr. Right when you're in that state. Yeah, but the good news, Victoria, we're not talking How old of a gal are you? You're still young.

I'm 30.

Still young. I mean, can you imagine me having this conversation with a dude who's like 68 years old and he's like, I just keep making problem after problem after problem and I have nothing left? And you're talking to this guy and you got— yeah, you may have a good 15, 20 years left of life. How many of that is good left? Not many, you know, good healthy years. And oof, that's tough. You're 30.

Well, better late than never, you know, to the, to the 68-year-old.

It's late, that's the point. It's not better late, it's better you're still— you could be my daughter, you got your world ahead of you. I mean, you made a big oopsie and you need to recognize— you recognize your big oopsie and move on from Bob and just say, Bob, we both know this was a giant shit show. Um, this— the, the vibrator thing and the— this thing and that— it's— that's just little details. It's, it's a piece of a jigsaw puzzle that has like 1,000 pieces, and you're harping on this one little piece going, he's upset about the vibrator thing. And then as we talk, whopping 20 minutes into our conversation, the puzzle pieces just keep adding and adding and adding. Okay, we got cut off there for a bit, had a little malfunctions. I hope this works okay. But anyway, what I was saying is there's a big jigsaw puzzle of issues here, and the vibrator thing was like just a small one little of a thousand pieces. And but the big picture is, is that this whole relationship was born out of— in a real unhealthy way. The foundation wasn't very strong, was it?

Definitely not.

So what do we do going forward?

Well, all I can do is focus on my end, right? So I mean, I'm already, you know, I've reached— I'm already— I already have my own place now, actually, that he doesn't know about.

Um, oh wow, so you're moving on?

Yes, yes. Um, the reason I sort of reached out was because like a lot of what's happened has left me questioning my own version of like what I thought was reality kind of thing.

Oh wow.

So like I know I asked about the vibrator, but I was curious to know, you know, in those circumstances, would any real man consider that cheating, and would they consider that to be, you know, this horrible thing, or was that just him, a him problem? You know, because I'm trying to sort of recalibrate myself, I guess, and my beliefs, because at this point I don't trust myself, like my gut. I don't trust, uh, I just don't know anymore. But I, I thought, who better to ask than, you know, you and your, your group of men.

That's very big of you. That's huge. And, um, you're right, your, your picker is off, so to speak. And then, um, all the details of what leads you to pick certain men and relationships and Bob and And you're right to question yourself, like, what, um, I don't know what to think anymore. Like, is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? What he, what he said, is that good, bad, indifferent? Is he right in his judgment of me? And all that. And he's wildly insecure. Bob has problems. And you need to keep telling yourself that. And don't judge other men and their actions based upon what somebody like Bob did. I say the same thing to men all the time. Uh, what he said was very insecure, and in a secure man, walking in on wife doing that would probably be yahoo. Um, okay, I'm saying that though from the perspective of a man who would kill to have a woman do such a thing and be open to activity, healthy activity between the two of them, which is what you guys did frequently. The two as a combination is what every man wants. You know, we do this this frequently, yet she still does that. Wow, cool, I'm lucky. But if that in turn is a result of she's just not quite satisfied, oh well, then what do I got to do to improve? Um, that's all that is healthy and secure on a man's part. Now, is that rare? I, you know, these, this this day and age, we got a lot of insecure people, men and women alike. Yeah, I know plenty of men who are caught— for example, they're out on a, on a date with he and the wife, and some over-the-top, holy crap, gorgeous woman walks next to them, and his eye just naturally catches, you know, sees the woman, you know, as if he's like, oh wow, and he catches himself and looks away. But that brief second that he looked at the hot woman His wife is like, what's wrong with you, you pervert? I can't believe you looked at her. I'm leaving. Our date is over.

I mean, beauty is beauty.

Exactly. Because everyone in the place looked at this over-the-top, you know, hot woman. She's just welcome to being an attractive woman. And, uh, but, but very insecure women are like, that means you don't love me. That means you don't care for me anymore. That means you're a terrible— same kind of thing what you're seeing here. You're doing that. And then some men are very insecure to the point where the wife finally builds up the courage to say, what we're doing in the bedroom ain't cutting it. This is what I want instead. Oh, you're a horrible woman. You're terrible. You're this bad name, that bad. You know where I'm going with this. And you must be, you must be doing other men. You may— it's so wildly insecure men. And a lot of women know that, or they sense that in their husband over the years of being with them. And they're like, I He is not the type of dude that I can bring this type of information to. He's got real problems, Ralph. I can't just go to him.

That's sad. That's sad because that breaks down, breaks down communication on both sides. I mean, yeah, I know, like, what is it, like 50% of people or something are supposedly securely attached? But I'm like, where are they? Where?

I don't see them.

Here's the thing, you don't find them as a raging alcoholic running up and looking for a mate. Anyway, you go through your therapy, you go in recovery, you become sober, you get a, you know, get your feet under you, you build your career, you build a good network of people. If you're a religious person, you do the church thing. If you're not a religious person, you do the community thing, and you build your, your friends, and you surround yourself with secure individuals. And then lo and behold, that translates also into your romantic network of people. You know, somebody's like, you should meet my friend so-and-so, he'd be great for you. And you meet them and you're like, wow, he's completely normal. There's nothing wrong with him. Now, with that being said, you're going to have some difficulty. Anybody who has any kind of like overt negative thing in their past— like, I got some guy that's like, let's say there's a dude that's, um, been with— who's been married 3 times before. Even though all three ended, quote, not his fault, like all three cheated on him or something like that. That's a lot of baggage. And let's say he goes to therapy and he works on himself and he gets all better and everything else, and then he finally is a more secure individual and he goes out and meets very secure women. Some of them are going to be turned off by the fact that this dude was married three times before, they all cheated on him. That shows like, um, something's not quite right here. And some of them have every right to say Not for me, sorry. So you, Victoria, gonna get all better. You're gonna do the work. You're gonna work with therapists and everything else to figure out what's going on here. And you're gonna be all better, and you're gonna run into very secure individuals who are gonna say, oh, you're an alcoholic, even though in recovery, and even though sober for so many years. Oof, I don't know. Oh, you have a child.

Yep.

And you got this child from this guy who was this narcissistic a-hole, which by the way, I'm calling that out. He has some narcissistic tendencies about himself. And, um, oof, I don't know. I don't know if I want to deal with that. And they have every right to say that. So you got some— you got some, you know, obstacles in the way of finding Mr. Right. What if, um, what if you go the next 40, 50 years and you don't find Mr. Right?

Well, it is what it is, you know. I mean, I'm sure— I don't— I'm not on the quest to find Mr. Right, to be honest. Um, I, I'm someone that likes people I, you know, for the man that was married 3 times, I think what matters is like the learning process, right? I think for me the biggest thing I've realized is that closed-mindedness is— I can't do a closed-minded person. I think that I need somebody that's, you know, I don't know, like the whole Big Five personality stuff. Like, it's funny because my ex had done that and he's high on neuroticism, low on agreeableness, you know, things like that, and low on openness to experience. And I'm like the opposite. I'm like high agreeableness, high open-mindedness, and high openness to experience. So it's like an open-minded person that you can actually like discuss these things with, you know, isn't just going to sort of pigeonhole you and judge you on your past and stuff, I think. And for all I've worked, you know, honestly, I'm glad— I hate to say this, but I've— I mean, it sounds weird, but my struggles with drinking have really opened my eyes to like a whole world of people that I otherwise would have judged and, and thought were just the hobos under the bridge with the bag and they're losers. But like, honestly, having, you know, I've met some of the best people in the recovery sphere, and so it's really opened my eyes. And so it's like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have any regrets about that. And if people want to, you know, not be with me for that, then power to them, you know. They— you're right, they have that right. And, um, I'm not gonna like pretend that I'm not, you know, that I haven't been through stuff because, um, I—

it—

that's something I'm proud of at this point, to be honest. I mean, not so much the— this recent stuff with my ex. I mean, that— I feel pretty shitty about that still, but, you know.

Yeah, if it comforts you at all, you're in a good club because I've always said, and I say this to men, that, you know, I've had men that I consider like mentors and guys that I look up to in life and guys that are really been there and done that and really succeeded in life, and the great men as we call them, all the great men that I've known in my life have some pretty big shit in their past that makes you go, oh wow, you know. You talk to these guys and they're like, yeah, I was— went through this horrible thing, and you know, people die and job loss, and they were poor as can be and all kinds of stuff. And, um, yeah, you're just like, oh wow. And but they all had in common is that they persevered and worked through it, and now they're doing better and they're helping others. And you're just like, yeah, you just see this again and again and again. Like, oh wow, all these great people have overcome a great deal, and some of them have— not like it's in the past and they dealt with it and it's done. No, it's like something they perpetually deal with. Like, just the other day I spoke to somebody who's like, yeah, I have bipolar disorder and I'm medicated for bipolar. Oh wow, would have never guessed. Oh yeah, it's something I've struggled with, a therapy and a medication to get just right and so forth. But they've persevered as in spite of all of this. So you're in good company. Just— you want to join their club of those people that say, got issues, got to work on it. Let's get past it. Let's get through this. And invariably, they're the people that make the best human beings. Just like you say, you meet all these people are like, wow, I never realized that there's some really good people that have been through all this, that have been through the— some of the most famous people in the world have substance abuse problems. And multiple divorces in their background and everything else. But eventually they get older and wiser and they, they learn. That's all we can do, learn from all this nonsense.

And the part that's important, I think, is like to be able to see your part in things. And what I, what I really like about your podcast episodes is that you sort of challenge men when they kind of come in with this like victim sort of mindset to sort of look at like, okay, yes, but like also on your end, you You know, I think that's a really important skill to have. That's a big part of recovery is accepting your role in things. So I think that, you know, and that helps with relationships a lot too. But when you have someone that refuses to sort of see their role in things and just sort of points the finger, it just, you can't, it's like a stalemate after that, you know. And then, yeah, it's just, it's so not helpful.

Yeah, taking zero accountability is not a good way to move forward in life at all. You'll always find other people go, it's them. It's them. It's them. And let's be honest though, sometimes we are completely, you know, a victim in circumstance. That, that does happen. You know, if the airplane fell from the sky and landed on my head, it's like, who am I to blame? I should have been sitting here at this point. No, it's, you know, these horrible things happen to somebody. But that's not the— that's not what I hear from people. What I hear from people is just, I made this horrible mistake of entering into a relationship with somebody I shouldn't have. I saw all these red flags leading up to it, but I said, ah, to hell with it. I don't think of my think much of myself. Let me persevere and stick out this relationship because I'm never going to find another one like this one. And it just— they just keep stacking and adding to the problem, adding to the problem. And I say, at what point are you going to stop and go, what are you doing, dude? And you're saying all the right things here, Victoria. It's one thing to say, but it's another thing to do. And it sounds like you're, you're, you're doing well as far as I can tell. You know all the vernacular, you know what, you know all the little things about the psychology things and the relationship things. You've done your reading and you're listening and you're watching YouTube. Like a lot of guys that I talk to. And, um, but it's another thing to put it into practice. And I love what I hear about the 'I've already found another place.' Good for you. Yeah, that's a huge step.

But, uh, yeah, and I filed for custody, things like that. However, oh, you know, like immediately after the— immediately after the— I found out about the affairs and stuff, I guess I kind of had a period of like hysterical sort of bonding or whatever it's called.

Very common.

You're right, I do do a lot of reading about this. It's one thing I feel like I could control is like the knowledge I gained on this. But, uh, You're right, the practical, the practical steps is another issue. But, um, I found myself going back to him, like, like trying to like, like prove— like I wanted him to look at me and say, I was so wrong, you're better than any of these people, you know, I messed up and I never should have. But I'm not going to get that, you know what I mean? I'm just not. And so, but it's very frustrating to watch. And I'm sure some of the men that you'd work with can maybe attest to this, that you feel really stupid when you feel like you're watching yourself repeat a pattern that you know is unhealthy. You've done the work to know that you shouldn't be doing this. However, you're still doing it and it's like, why am I— like, come on, what am I doing? But I don't know if maybe that's just part of the healing process too, is just you got to go through that part.

Yeah.

Did you see some of this from mom and dad?

Um, my mom is very similar to Bob. Um, my dad was like similar to me, people pleaser, denial. Yeah. Uh, once I had my issues with drinking, he got into Al-Anon and that's when he realized my mom also has a drinking problem. So he sort of decided to stop enabling her, and once he stopped drinking with her, she, you know, was like done with him. But he ended up actually divorcing her, um, and now he's actually doing really well and happy, and he's grown into his own. I'm so proud of my dad. Um, so even, you know, for the later age people, you can, you know, he found another relationship that he's happy. Like, you can still have good years, you know what I mean? My dad is like the happiest I've ever seen him, and he's 62, you know.

That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I don't know, but I definitely saw that, that same sort of, um, unhappy, rigid person that will never— you'll never be good enough. And then the sort of catering to that person's needs, foregoing your own, that whole dynamic.

I'm repeating it. It's just—

so the quick answer is, when I say, did you see this with mom and dad? It's, oh yeah. And I'm repeating, and I'm repeating all the same thing all over again.

So just not the cheating part.

It's, um, as far as you know.

You never know.

But, uh, so there wasn't cheating with mom and dad is what you're saying, as far as you know?

And yeah, no, I know way too much about my mom. She used to like dump all her stuff on me. Um, okay. You know, she's not a sexual person. My dad's not exactly the most manly, testosterone-fueled person.

He's sort of more And, uh, you know, dump— the mom dumping everything on you and oversharing with you, as you know from all your reading and stuff, is not a good thing. Um, basically treating you like one of her girlfriends or parentifying you, or whatever you want to call it, it's not good. Um, but the point is that you saying, oh yeah, I had all this dysfunction from mom and dad and I'm recreating a lot of those patterns— you recognize that. Now this is the point where you say, enough's enough, we're not doing this anymore. And your little one is a boy or a girl?

A boy.

So son, you're about to get— you're 2 years old, so we got him early. You're gonna watch the rest of your life, you're gonna have a front row seat for how a good healthy mom behaves and how a good healthy mom forms relationships with other people and how I overcome things and how I deal with things. And he's going to be a really good husband to somebody down the line.

Maybe. I truly hope so. That's my, that's my goal.

I don't, I don't want him—

I mean, I know what he's seeing right now, he's going to replicate. So, you know, I don't want, I don't want him to end up in the same situation because he witnessed it growing up, you know.

Does, um, does Bob— we'll keep calling him that— does he still want to stay in the kid's life?

I assume he says that he does, and he gets really upset if he can't like see his son. However, whenever he's never watched him for like any time alone. He only wants to see his son if I'm there to basically do the caretaking. And he uses him as a pawn, kind of like, oh well, I'm gonna take our son right now. And you know what I mean? It's just not— I don't think he's quite ready to be a father really. But I would never withhold my kid. I don't like when women do that, the withholding of the children from the father. I don't think that's right. However, um, if you're not a fit parent, then, you know, of course you have to protect your child.

I was, I was going to say, I would be very surprised if he told me otherwise. It seems to go along with that territory. It's very uber selfish with this, you know, his behavior and the, the affair and the massage parlors and the, the way he treated you and everything else. It kind of all goes along with not the best father in the world, not the most loving, attentive And, you know, I'd be very surprised if he would have said, oh no, he's really great and he takes care of the kiddo, he does a lot of things for around the house. And usually it doesn't— the two things don't blend well together. So it wouldn't surprise me if you had told me the guy said, I don't, you know, I'm good with every other weekend kind of thing. That's something.

I mean, that would be fine.

That's, that's what I requested, you know, for. And, and that would be more than what he's doing now. I think that he would see his son more often.

You know, yeah, if he's got that, uh, other gal in the wings that he's having the relationship with, the affair, um, his attention and time and energy is probably more directed towards that, and the kid will kind of get in the way of that. Be honest with you, that's what we see with a lot of women that we— that are having affairs with their husbands. The husbands end up with the kiddos like 80% of the time, and he's like, what the hell? It's like, yeah, because all our energy is over here right now.

So Good for those men.

Good for those men.

Yeah, you may end up with that kiddo 100% of the time. I don't know. We'll see.

That wouldn't make a difference.

That's what's been happening anyways, so, you know.

So here's the thing that a lot of guys in your situation come to me— again, I don't want to make it about the men. I don't want to be one of those guys. Yeah, men go through this too.

This is help for men. It's a human experience.

Well, it's a human experience, and I'm doing this to show people this isn't a gender thing. This is a human experience thing of people that got some shit in their background and how that affects their lives moving forward. And now we all realize that and we go, enough of this crap, let's turn this around. You're a perfect example of that. So what you run the risk of is just overwhelming yourself with just so much at once. And if you're taking in all this information, you're watching my stuff, you're YouTubing this and you're reading that, and yadda yadda yadda, and you settle down one thing at a time. And the one thing at a time is let's get the new place Let's get moved in. Let's make sure your kiddo's okay. That's okay, cool. Let's take care of financial situation. Who pays what, where, how is he going to get involved? How much? If, if he's not father but he's on the birth certificate, right? And he's, as far as the law is concerned, he's obligated to pay something. Who's— how do we take care of that? Attorneys, get all that straightened out. Um, take care of yourself. I don't know if he has a violent streak in him. If that's something to worry about. If, you know, I'm just thinking one of these days you're going to be over there moving stuff out and he's going to explode on you and whack you upside the head or something like that. Just be careful. I don't know if you need to have other people around you just in case.

Yeah, um, that's already kind of happened.

Um, that's what I was concerned with. That kind of goes with the territory. So yeah, Victoria, take care of yourself. Be careful.

Yeah, I will. Now it'll just be Thank you for saying what you did about one thing at a time, because I, I have felt extremely overwhelmed lately.

Um, everybody does, because you're, you're in a, you're in a state of turmoil and chaos, and I got to do this, I gotta do that, I get to do daycare, and I gotta take care of the kid, I gotta work full-time, get the money, the place, you know, come up with the money for this, for that, um, trying to appease him.

And then his family's contacting me, and thankfully his family's like very much been very supportive to me, but still Oh, good, good. And then also getting his suicide threats that he texts me sometimes about. Yeah, it's just a lot.

It's, uh, yeah, we don't, we don't, we don't communicate with him, um, unless it has something to do with some legal issue, kid issues, something like that. Then we don't. And he's going to send you paragraphs of, you know, these long scrolling texts.

You just—

oh my gosh, yes, you bet. You obviously know where you're—

yeah, you've been through that all It's all par for the course, and you just let it go in one ear, out the other. You know, it, it sounds weird, but it's almost kind of a blessing that he has the other gal in the picture, um, because that will take some of that energy. Um, I often talk to men that are like, yeah, she's with this other guy, and I'm like, oh shoot, good. It's like, why? Because if not, um, you get the full wrath of all of their anger and frustration and everything because they don't have the other person. Like, you better hope that they don't break up. Because if and when they break up, he and the other gal, then all hell's gonna break loose. Be careful. So that's kind of—

I don't know, I don't know if he's really with her. I mean, to be honest, I don't— I know he was at one point, but it sounds he's been doubling down on his efforts to try to like prove to me that he can change while really not changing. So yeah, yeah, but that's true.

I kind of wish that he had somebody.

I wish he had somebody, you know, at this point.

Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but anyway, take care of yourself. Be careful with the little one especially. I just worry about the little one. Worry about you. Um, you know, if there are moments where I have to go to the house and he's going to be there and I need to get some stuff out or whatever it may be, we need to sign some documents together, I don't know, whatever it may be, something that puts you two together in close proximity, do you have somebody else that you can say, hey, come along with me, just as kind of my quasi bodyguard kind of thing?

Yeah, I do, I do. And that's definitely important. Um, I've learned from experience.

Um, and he's not going to take it well. He's going to be very insecure about the— why is this person here? Do you not trust me? What's good? Just exactly in one ear out the other. No, this person's just here with me. I feel more comfortable that they're here. Let's go ahead and sign the documents. Let's go ahead and move my stuff out. Can we talk? No, we cannot. Can I walk you to your car? No, you cannot. You know, you're gonna have to— oh, it's boundary flexing time, Victoria. I mean, this is the—

I'm so bad at boundaries. I mean, this is like my, my weakness is the boundaries. So, you know, it'll be good practice for me.

Everybody I talk to— that's tough if you've never done that kind of stuff before. It's like, you know, like working out in the gym. You've never bench pressed before and you try it for the first time, it— you look like an awkward monkey under, you know, on the bench press, like, what? I don't know what to do. The The bar's wobbling all over the place, you drop it on your head, and then eventually after a while you get better at it. And it's the same thing with these boundary things. The first time you tell somebody no, your heart's pounding out of your chest, your blood pressure goes up 20 points, and you're just, you know, feel very weird about it. You're like, he's very mad at me. But then you, with time, you get better at it. And yeah, next thing you know, you're bench pressing 315 pounds like it's nothing. Same thing with the boundary. Next thing you know, you're telling people nope. Moving on. And you're just a— you're a well-oiled nope machine. Just remember, no is a complete sentence, and there's nothing wrong with saying that.

I hope I get to that point.

I truly do.

You will. There's no hope. You know, there's, there's some language you need to work on. Man, I hope— who are you talking to? God? The universe? You're talking to yourself.

Yeah, but this is true.

You're in control here.

Yeah, it's like, uh, I had this friend and whenever I'd say like, oh, I'll try to do that, and they'd be like, don't try, just do it. I'm like, oh, okay.

Yeah, just do it. Easier for us to say though, isn't it? Yeah, we're not, we're not in your position. We're not Victoria having to deal with all this nonsense. It's easy for us, which is why you're talking to us. You're getting that outside perspective. Somebody with the completely outside of your situation saying, "Mm, don't do that." That's valuable. Okay, well, Victoria's audio got cut out. She's on her phone, so the connection kept— was a little wonky there. But, you know, I did this to show you guys that this is evidence that this whole situation— a lot of you guys are probably watching this saying, "This sounds very familiar." You know, all these details are very similar to a lot of the details I hear from guys in similar situations with abusive relationships and It's not good. And, um, you know, I hope that you guys see that this is not a gendered thing. This is a, um, this is a human thing. Well, very similar. We can stop with the man versus woman and that we're all so unique in our struggles. And no, it's, uh, all very similar. And, uh, I hope that, uh, Victoria got something out of this. Hope you guys enjoyed, and, uh, we will see on the next one.