"The Healthy Version of THE TALK"

Okay, if you're a frequent listener of the Dad Starting Over podcast and you find yourself saying, "Yeah, that sounds like me," well, you don't need another podcast episode. What you need is support. The Help for Men Brotherhood is where men go when they're done pretending that they got it all handled. You know, your dead bedrooms, your divorce, your loneliness, your rebuilding life. We have private forums, frequent live Zoom meetings, one-on-one coaching, courses, all my books at no additional charge. And yes, we get together in person. Real men and real conversations. So stop doing this alone and join the Help for Men Brotherhood today at help4men.com/join. I look forward to seeing you in the next member meeting.

In my book, The Dead Bedroom Fix, I focused on a very familiar phenomenon known as the talk. The talk is basically, in terms of— put it in terms of the dead bedroom, it's a guy sitting the wife down saying, all right, basically, look, I want sex from you. I'm still physically aroused within the confines of this relationship. I don't care about the kids. I don't care about the job. I don't care about the fact that you're 20 pounds heavier. I don't care about the fact that I'm 20 pounds heavier. I still have sexual desire. So why the hell don't you? And it's not fair. And I just don't get it. And from a very, you know, manly cyborg, rational point of view, that kind of makes sense. It's like, hey, I'm able to string together whatever physical and mental puzzle pieces need to come together to form sexual desire. And I don't see that same effort, I guess, if we want to call it that, out of you. Which, it's funny, because when it comes to sexual desire, um, from our manly perspective, there really isn't that much effort, is there? It just kind of happens. We literally go, oh, holy shit, who is that woman over there? Oh man, the things I would do to her. What work you know, took place there? Absolutely none. You know, you're sitting on a park bench reading the newspaper and she walks by. That's it. There's no work. And so when we put it in terms of, hey wife, I don't understand why you don't put in the quote-unquote work to get to that headspace, it's not really necessarily fair. It's not realistic. But kind of going off on a tangent there. What we're focusing on here is, is there a healthy mentally healthy version of the talk that you can have with your wife? And my contention is yes, but it is not in terms of sex. I want it. How come we're not having it? Let's go, woman. Chop chop. Let's, you know, jump on board the sex train here. Let's go. You know, it's not, hey, we're married, we're supposed to be doing this. It's not, you know, it's really weird that we haven't had sex in 3 months. You should feel guilty about that. Give me sex now. The healthy version of the talk is basically, well, some things need to happen first. You need to— let's put it this way. Anytime you sit down with a wife and complain about something that is in direct relation to her behavior, the very first thing the wife is going to do is become defensive, and she's going to turn and point the finger right back at you. So let's say, for example, you're a guy and you went to your wife and said, um, I'm worried about you. You've gained a lot of weight ever since baby number 2. You look like you're 80, 90 pounds overweight. That's not healthy. You're acting depressed. I love you to pieces, but this can't continue on, etc., etc. Let's go to the gym. I'm here to help you however I can. She's going to look right down at that beer belly of yours and basically either overtly or in a very subtle way, say, "I'm sorry, who the hell are you to tell me to lose weight?" That's the very first reaction it's going to be. Now, if you're a, you know, a rippled Adonis who, you know, could be a male model if you wanted to tomorrow and so forth, your words carry a little bit more weight. So you see where I'm going with this. So if you're the type that's going to sit down with the wife and say, "Hey, some things need to change," she's going to point that finger right back at you and say, "Oh yeah, who the hell are you?" Or even worse, "Oh yeah, or what?" Which is another way of saying, "We both know you're not going to do anything, that there's no real incentive for me as your wife to make any changes. So, now what, dude? What are you gonna do?" And for a lot of men, the answer to that, "Well, now what are you gonna do?" is, "Well, I'm just gonna go to the other room and sulk for a while, and then we'll have this conversation here in another couple months." So, very ineffective. I think an effective version of the talk is something along these lines. And for guys that have had one-on-one chats with me, you've probably heard this. This is something I find myself saying a lot because I've talked to some guys over a period of months, if not a year or more. And one of the positives from having these talks with these guys is that I can see their, their growth and maturation within the relationship and within themselves. So here's a guy who was basically chasing his wife for years and suddenly had this epiphany after reading the book and chatting with me and said, "Why am I chasing? How about instead I just kind of work on myself and, you know, flip the script a little bit, and let's see if she can get off her butt and start doing some of the same thing. Let's see what happens." And for some of these guys, the "let's see what happens," nothing happens. And for some of these women who are battling depression, anxiety, and so forth, seeing this rapid change in their husband and his physique and his demeanor, and boy, he's really trying hard. It kind of sends them further down into a hole, these women. And some of the guys have heard things like, "I'm no good for you. I saw that woman looking at you the other day. I saw you looking at that woman the other day. If you were to leave me, I wouldn't blame you. I'm awful. I'm terrible. I'm no good for anybody. I hate me. I hate my life," etc., etc. You know, that's a very typical depressed talk, whether it's within the realm of, you know, a romantic relationship. Friends who are friends with depressed people hear much the same thing. Got people, employers who employ depressed people, hear much the same thing. I'm no good. I don't— I wouldn't blame you if you fired me, that kind of stuff. So with a lot of these guys, they're at this point in the relationship where they've built up a pretty good resume of I'm awesome husband material here. You know, he's really improved himself physically, which is the most basic of improvement. You know, fix up your body. So he's checked that off the list. As far as some of his provider traits are concerned, he's improved at the job. Because it's funny how when you kind of work on your physicality, that in turn works on your mentality, and you become a more confident person in yourself and in your work and in your relationship with others. And you tend to be more open. The neuroticism, you know, levels start going down, which means you're more open. And you're more communicative with people and you're more flirtatious with women. You're more confident around men, and that makes you a more all-around attractive person, attractive employee or boss, whatever it may be. So your professional life has gone up as well. You're— if you're following what I lay out in the book, you're also, you know, you're not discontinuing your flirtatious nature with your wife. You're letting her know, hey, I'm here. I think the world about you. I'm not going to push you into sex because obviously you don't want that. I'm not that needy. But I'm just here to show you that I still love you and still appreciate you. So, you're really checking a lot of boxes and you're sitting back and going, this ain't doing a damn thing as far as my wife's concerned. It's doing a lot for me. I've improved a great deal. I can look at myself in the mirror and say, not bad, dude. Keep going. You're on the right path. But I don't see that same reaction out of my wife. So, a lot of these men get to the point of, "I really want to sit down and talk to her about this." And I say, "Well, then why the hell don't you?" "Well, but that's the talk, and I don't want to have the talk. I don't want to come across as some needy little asshole." And I say, "That's not the talk. That's communication." And you know, a lot of these relationship experts are always pushing communication, communication, communication, and they're right. When it's done right and it comes from a place of strength, It's all about communication. So, a healthy version of the talk in these kind of cases. So, to recap, you've done all you can as far as you're concerned. You're checking a lot of boxes. You're an undeniably good husband candidate on paper. You know, I often tell guys, if I put 100 single women in a room, you know, these guys that have done all this work, and I I put all these women into a conference room and I walked you in into the front door and I said, all right ladies, listen up. This here is John Doe. Let me tell you all about him. And they're going to look at you and they're going to hear your resume. And then I'm going to say, all right ladies, who wants to go on a date with John Doe here? Probably 98 of the women would jump up and say, me, me, me, me, me. So that type of guy, what does he need to do and how does he need to do it and sit down with the wife? Well, it's going to go something like this, by my estimation. I think right up front you want to say, sweetheart, I love you and I want to be with you until the day I die. That's why I said I do to marry you. That's always been my mission. The problem is, is that I've done a lot of work on myself, and I know you've seen it because you've made comments on it. I can see by your behavior that some of this is kind of bothering you. You're worried about me going to the gym so often. You know, you're trying to— which, by the way, is completely natural and understandable how— why you would be nervous at that. I totally get it. And I— at some— at certain points, you seem to be almost an obstacle in the way of me getting better. You would try to get me to eat some birthday cake, and you said, hey, do you have to go to the gym again? And, you know, all that stuff. I get it. But I went anyway. I'm helping out more around the house. I realized I kind of dropped the ball when it came to that kind of stuff. So I, you know, I took inventory of myself. And I said, within this relationship, how am I kind of falling asleep? And I started working more on myself. I started helping out more around the house. You know, if you noticed, I'm not one to say, hey honey, look what I did. I just freaking did it. I realized I need to be an adult. So that's what I did. I stepped up to the plate, helping out with the kids. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think I've been a loving and attentive husband to you. And on top of that, I realized me pushing you and pressuring you for sex and everything was very insensitive of me. You weren't in the mood. That's, that's my problem. It's not necessarily your problem. You know, sometimes I'm not in the mood either. I get it. And if you're battling some anxieties, depression, and so forth, I get that as well. The last thing on your mind is let's have sex. So I backed off in that regard. Basically, sweetheart, what I'm saying is I've put a lot of work into this, and it kind of bothers me to sit back and watch a spouse who basically said, I see what you've done there, but I really don't care. And what you're telling me is that your anxieties, your worries, maybe even your depression, you know, fill in the blank, whatever the issue may be with your wife, kind of supersedes our relationship. Those things are more important. You are putting a lot of time and effort, you don't even know it, into that world, but not into us. And as far as I'm concerned, what that shows me is that that stuff's more important, and you're kind of taking me and us for granted. And that's no good. And before— and this is, guys, this is the important part of the conversation— and before you even go there, before you even say it, because I can see it coming, This is not about sex. In fact, right now, if you said, hey, let's go to the bedroom and have sex, I would say no. I would say we have a lot of work to do before we get to that point. Why? Because we are not in a healthy space right now. And just you laying there in the bed and saying, get, get to it, is just very unattractive to me. And frankly, that doesn't turn me on, and that's not what I want. I want to see the energy back from you that you used to have. I want to see that light, that spark in your eye. If you're telling me, wife, that you just don't have the energy anymore to get up and improve, you can't get off the couch, you can't do this, well, maybe then we need to look at getting you some help. And I'm here to help you however I can. But the point of this talk is we're not going to ignore the giant elephant in the room anymore. We're not going to just have this little chat. I go in the next room, I go to the garage, and then we just pretend this chat never happened and I go pick up the kids from school and we have dinner and just ignore this. No, we're gonna have a plan and we're gonna have a plan right now, like this very second. And before you ask, oh yeah, or what, I'm sorry to say this, this isn't a relationship that I can continue on in. I know that sounds horrible and no, I do not want to divorce. That is the absolute positive last thing on the planet Earth that I want. But as far as I'm concerned, you are leaving me no choice if you continue on the way you've been doing for months, years, whatever it may be in your case. So what do you say, wife? Do you want to get the ball rolling and let's start over? Let's put in the work. Yes or no? So that's— I think you lay it all out right there. Look what I've done. I'm concerned. I love you. This isn't about sex. That's stupid. This is about us as a relationship. Because basically, guys, for you guys that have put in this tremendous amount of work on yourself, this relationship dynamic that you have with your wife, where she is this mopey, depressed, I don't want to put any work into this relationship, I don't have the time, energy, etc., etc. Whatever it may be, whatever your flavor of this problem may be, it's not sustainable. It cannot maintain. You may not realize it, and you may laugh at this idea, but dudes, I'm telling you, I've heard it a million times. You're primed for an affair if you are, in fact, on paper, that much of a catch where you've checked all these boxes. You know, I talked about the analogy of walking into the room and 98 out of 100 women would say, "I'll take him, I'll take him." That is not an exaggeration. There are some desperate women out there. And as soon as they see a guy that checks those boxes, that is very, very rare in a man. The pool of men candidates out there is pretty shitty right now. And if you're telling me that you're checking all these boxes, I'm sorry, you're the cream of the crop. You've risen to the top. And women are very attuned to these things, and that little bimbo at the office is going to start making eyes at you, and she's going to ask you for your number if she doesn't have it already because of work. She's going to start sending you random text messages, and she's going to validate the hell out of you, and it's going to make you feel like a million bucks. And while you're sitting here telling me that you have good boundaries and you have good— you're a man of faith and you're not the type to screw around on your wife, um, I'm telling you, you're a human being. And if you're going without intimacy, you know, that's, you know, that's emotional intimacy, it's physical intimacy. If you're going without for a long time, nature has put some programming in you that says you need to go get that elsewhere. And you will be fighting it, and you will be fighting it, and you will be fighting it. And that's not a very difficult fight for a guy who's not a very high-value guy. If you're, you know, 400 pounds and you look like shit and you're unemployed, nature kind of takes care of the putting up the boundaries for you. If you're a high-value dude and you got a lot going on, oof, that's tough. And you're gonna have a lot of tests and it's gonna eventually wear you down and you're gonna be in a position where those boundaries just aren't gonna be there. You're off in a business meeting or business trip somewhere and you got a few cocktails in you in a bar with a beautiful woman sitting next to you, and next thing you know, you're exchanging numbers, and the next thing you know, you're having a little text, flirty text messages back and forth a couple times a week, and then that becomes every day, and then it becomes, hey, when are you coming back to Denver for this trip? And then it becomes you guys meet up in the bar, and the rest is history. Holy shit, do I hear this a lot. You know, as much as we want to talk about women and cheating and how it's a surprisingly frequent thing. I'm still not sure if, if the rate of men having affairs is still not way above that of women. There are quite a bit of men I've talked to who are in dire straits with their relationship. And at the end of the conversation that we have, he says, I have a confession to make. I've cheated on my wife 11 times.

I—

and by the way, that 11 times I just threw out there, that was literally one guy I talked to a couple years ago. When I very first started all of this. He saved that for the end of the conversation.

Men cheat.

It's not that we're necessarily wired to cheat and betray our spouse, but I would say we are wired to be very sexual creatures that are always seeking out that validation and affirmation. And what better form of validation and affirmation than to have somebody open themselves up physically and emotionally to you in the form of a sexual relationship? So that's my long-winded way of saying you guys got to get to the bottom of this. Do it in a healthy way and do it in a strong way. Notice that that little speech I gave, that was very much came from a place of leadership, of strength, of the boss. The boss sitting down with the employee. Hey, I don't think this is going to continue on anymore unless you pick up some sales. I'm sorry, you know, I like you as a friend and you're great to have around the office, but that only goes so far, dude. We need some sales. We need some money coming in the door. And if I don't see that from you, then we got to do something else. So that's it, basically, guys. That's, um, that's a healthy version of the talk. That's the mindset you need to be in. But take, again, take a very good, honest, open inventory of yourself. Are you to the place where you are able to have that conversation? Can you look at yourself in the mirror and say, I have done all I can here. I don't know what else the hell to do. It's on her now. You know, it takes two to tango.