Episode 290: Adolescent Mental Health: Expert Tips for Parents

No need to whine and schwiney palooza. Have some wine and join us on the Winey Palooza Podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the Winey Palooza Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I am so excited because I get to talk to Dr. Debra Offner today. Thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Thanks for having me.

I'm gonna tell you a little bit about this fantastic lady. She is a clinical psychologist with expertise in adolescent development, student mental health, and school life. She serves as consulting psychologist at Beacon Academy in Boston, a 14-month program between 8th and 9th grade that prepares students from communities with limited resources for entry into independent day and boarding high schools. She also provides ongoing professional consultation to several independent middle and secondary schools. Dr. Offner maintains an active clinical practice where she works with middle, high school, and college students and their families. And as I said to Dr. Offner before we started recording, uh, this bio is very short, doesn't do her justice. She has list of accolades that we could tell you about that I'm sure we will get to in the interview. But she has so much to share with us, so I'm excited to jump in and talk to her. So let's begin with— I would— I'd like to ask people, I like to start at the beginning and find out what inspired you to become a psychologist.

Yeah, that's a great question. So let's see. I always was the kind of friend in high school that people would confide in. You know, I was a good listener, generally gave pretty good advice based on very limited life experience. Yeah, you know, that's sort of what kids do. So I was always someone who liked to listen, like to get really close to other people. Went to college, started studying social sciences, thought about being a sociologist and a professor. Did end up becoming a professor at one point in psychology later, but ultimately felt that my way of helping the world and helping people was better, like, on a one-on-one basis rather than necessarily becoming a policymaker or lots of other roles that I thought would have made a great impact. But I didn't think it played to my strengths. And I also had an experience, personal experience, where I had a breakup with a lovely boyfriend in college, but it didn't end up working out and had a therapist who really helped me get through that. And the value of having someone, not just my mom or my friends, but someone else who knew what questions to ask or how to frame things, it was so helpful that it really kind of inspired me to take that next step to go to graduate school. And I've had a great time as a psychologist, and it's kind of everything I hoped it would be.

That's wonderful. And for you in particular, you gear more towards the adolescent age group. So how did that happen? How did you gear towards that age? Yeah, no, that's That's a great question.

So, um, I mean, part of it, I think, as I look back and I think about myself even now, like, that's definitely an age that kind of captures my identity, you know, that there's some part of me that's always going to be 16. Um, you know, I feel, you know, my inner teen is very much alive. Um, it happened somewhat. I mean, when I did my training, I did a bunch of different clinical placements in my PhD program and community mental health and college counseling. I worked with adults and kids. I did an inpatient rotation for a year where the unit was— it was very funny. It was ages 15 and up. So it was a strange— you have like a 15-year-old and like a 40-year-old. It was just a strange— but the other people on the unit, the other staff and even the other interns gravitated toward the adults because it was an adult unit. But the teenagers I thought were the most interesting and fun. And we'd have their families in and help work things out with them because often that was part of the problem. And I just loved it. And so I gravitated toward it. I also love education, and I've always worked in schools and colleges. And so my age group is really from about— I'd say age 11 or 12 is the youngest I go now, and then all the way up through college and graduate school. But it's just a great age and a great kind of set of institutions to work with as well.

Absolutely. And such a needed area. Like, that's such a— Such a hard age. I mean, I loved it, but it was a hard age to go through. I wouldn't want to go back.

Same. Exactly.

Exactly. And I'm, and I'm laughing listening to you because my husband teases me that I'm still 16. Uh-oh. So when you said, when you said that, I related to you.

Exactly.

Well, and as we're focusing on teens and mental health, you're good at recent breaking news and I am not. So any breaking news in regards to teens and mental health that you want to share with us?

Yeah, I mean, I think the primary message right now, you know, unfortunately, is that there's an adolescent mental health crisis. I think it's, it's nice because Vivek Murthy, the surgeon general, has really prioritized adolescent mental health as one of his public health kind of messages and priorities, which is really cool. That doesn't always happen. At the federal level. So I think we know there's an adolescent mental health crisis. It is definitely not just because of the COVID-19 pandemic or recent racial justice reckonings. It's partly that, but it's been building for over 10 years that the rates of anxiety, rates of depression, rates of suicidal intentions or behaviors have been rising for 10 years, spiked in the pandemic. And I think now we're waiting to see whether they might come down a little bit. But there's a lot of problems, really anxiety and depression being the main issues for kids. And there's many reasons for that. There's some implication of social media, social comparison, things like that. But that's not only what it is. One of the things I emphasize, and that is in the news to some extent, is the pressure on families trickles down. And so economic uncertainty, discrimination, all the things that parents are facing that affects their kids because of their moods, because of the stressors that they're bringing home with them. No matter what great parents there are, there are just these things. Kids are also more aware of problems. So whether it's climate issues, whether it's political issues, they're tapped in 24/7 to the news cycle. And that's upsetting, as you know. So there's a lot of reasons. But there is a crisis. It is well documented. And it's a real concern. And there's a shortage of providers, especially in certain areas. In more rural areas, there's a lot of underserved communities out there that don't have enough mental health access. And schools are notably— especially public, but also private schools— don't have enough counseling staff to meet the need. Yeah.

No way. Not at all. And when you're counseling in school, you're— I feel like you're not even getting to them. You're helping, but you're not getting to the meat of the issue because of time purposes.

Correct. You're putting out—

if I'm saying that correctly, you can only do so much in a school.

So you don't have that much time, right?

Right. And then everyone else is on a waiting list, you know, and they need counseling, and they're telling me that everyone has a long waiting list, so I feel terrible about that.

Right. It's a problem.

Yes, it really is a problem. Well, and we're talking about social media, and I think there's some red flags that parents need to know. I mean, can you kind of steer parents to knowing when there's red flags they should know about?

Yeah, I think, I mean, there's no opportunity at this point to have kids not be on social media. I mean, I don't believe that that's constructive or useful. That's part of their life. They have to learn how to manage it. I think social media can be a great connector. But, you know, as you well know, it can also be something that accelerates social comparison, which teenagers are already heightened aware of, you know, comparing themselves to others. That's what they all do anyway. And then when you look at people's curated profiles or people getting together and you didn't get invited to the party that's now being posted on Instagram, you know, etc., that stuff is hard. You want to hear how your kids are talking about it. You want to Encourage your kids to think critically about it, you know, so to say, like, well, you posted this, but it— and it looked this way, but what was really going on? Let's think about other people and whether what they're posting reflects their entire reality either. I don't have a problem with social media unless it is getting in the way of kids doing what they need to be doing to grow and to develop and to function. So it's going to take some time away from schoolwork because You know, that's— I used to talk on the phone, you know, when I was—

yes, yes.

There's going to be something. They're going to be scrolling. But as long as they're doing the things they need to be doing, whether it's getting to basketball practice or play rehearsal, getting their homework done, seeing friends, talking to friends, I don't have an issue with social media. It's about processing information and conversations as a family about the meaning of it because it's here to stay.

That was really good and really true. My daughter, my daughter is always like, well, it looks like I wasn't invited. It's okay. Oh my gosh, I, I have to tell you, I like that I didn't know all that stuff. I didn't know, I didn't get to see all the party pictures and all the— I mean, it's brutal. It is so hard for them. It makes me sad. And there's so much good, and there's also stuff like that.

It's really tough. And, and I think I've known some kids that have taken social media breaks, like self-imposed.

Yes.

And if a kid wants to do that, I always encourage it, and I think it can be helpful because some kids are more sensitive.

Yeah.

And so some kids, some kids can't. Yeah.

Well, so if you could talk to parents and educators and, and things that they could know more to help kids, what would you tell each of those groups?

Yeah, I mean, that is a lot of what I do.

I know.

And I, I, I love doing it because they're my partners in helping kids and they're the people that spend way more time with the children than I do. I get, you know, 45 minutes a week or something.

Yes.

So, you know, what I talk to parents about is a lot of taking care of themselves. And I don't mean, you know, spending a lot of money to go to a spa, though if you can do that, I'm all for it. I'm talking about sort of finding ways to manage your own stress, your own family of origin issues, your own trauma, whatever it is that you have going on. A big favor you can do to your kids is get help for it, whether that's through a partner, a friend, a therapist, a support group, so that you don't transmit as much of your stress or if you have trauma, your trauma to your kids, because kids pick up on everything. And even if they seem like they're not paying attention, they are. Kids talk to me more about their parents in therapy and their concerns about their parents than I think their parents would ever expect.

Oh, yeah. That's, that's actually surprising.

Right. Well, this is what I mean, right? They do, whether it's apparent substance use, whether it's the parent's marital relationship, whether it's the parent's own childhood trauma history. Now, it can be useful for a kid to know your history because it explains a lot. It humanizes you. It can be helpful. But kids can also feel burdened. And kids also are very sensitive to their parents. Taking stress out on them. And, you know, we all do it. You can't prevent it entirely. But if you manage your own moods and your own stress level, your kids will feel better because it's not then trickling down to them. So that's one thing. And I also encourage parents, if they're not so in touch with their inner teen, because most parents aren't, you know, they're an investment banker, they're a lawyer, they're a gastroenterologist, they're not thinking about the way that I am all the time, to just remember you know, what you were like, even if that's a little bit painful or uncomfortable or cringy, to sort of empathize with your kids and kind of what it's like to be that age and the insecurity and the uncertainty and, you know, the biological changes and all of that, just to try to get in touch with that, the empathy for what it's like for them to go through this. And then to remind yourself, if you've turned out okay, that you turned out okay, and that not all crises will end well, but most kids go through some real bumps and can also turn out okay. And talk to other parents, you know, or to a therapist, an expert, so that you get perspective. Because the other thing kids are really sensitive to is that if they're worried about something and then their parents get more worried about it, um, that stresses them out.

So, oh my God, this is what I got like yesterday. This is why I don't tell you.

Correct. So that's exactly, exactly right. Right, right. And so, you know, if you start catastrophizing more than your kid was about their situation, they won't tell you. And that's the other thing. You don't want your kids to regret telling you things. Keep the lines of communication open. Try not to judge even if you don't like what you're hearing. I mean, within reason, obviously, you know, if something's dangerous, it's not okay to just sit there, but try to hold back, you know, and let your kids explore their own and form their own opinions and, and use their experience to inform their choices.

I've learned so much about this from doing so many things wrong. We all, we all, we all learn. We all learn as we're, as we're parenting. And I am an emotional person and I'm telling, telling the listeners this because I'm sure there's so many who relate to this. That when my teenagers talk to me and I have to know that I have to stay calm and I can maybe freak out later to my husband in private and tell him my feelings, but they don't need my feelings at that time.

That's exactly right. And that's, that's, it's, it's easier said than done.

Oh, even the whole, when you're talking about parents taking care of themselves because our stress affects our kids so much, that's not easy. And I am And I have 3 sensitive kids and I see that they feed off of my stress. So you hit the nail on the head that it's hard, but us managing our feelings is so huge.

Right. It's huge. Yeah. It helps. It's also great modeling.

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, I think there's a fine line that you could probably help us with where we want them to see that we feel all the feelings. Yes, but we don't, but we don't want to stress them out.

Exactly. You don't want to burden them with unnecessary concern about your well-being, you know. So it's not that you can't share even really terrible things that might have happened, you know, in your childhood or whatever, um, or if you're having a tough time at work, you know, um, but you want to do it in a way that's measured and not needy, and you want to do it in a way that's It's about sharing with them. It's not you trying to get your needs met.

Oh, that was great. Yes, I love that. That's perfect. You just summed it up perfectly. So you really help children growing and becoming more independent people. Yes. And as they're doing that, what can we do as parents to kind of foster that and move that along?

Yeah, I mean, it really depends on the kid. You know, some kids are sort of, you know, revving for independence often well before they're able to manage it effectively. Other kids have to be kind of, you know, pushed a little bit out of the nest. So you want to sort of— I mean, this is true always— know your child. And if you have several kids, know the differences between them. And, you know, what's— you always want kids to be kind of at the edge of their comfort zone, kind of reaching up a little bit so that it's not, you know, so intense that they're gonna like come crashing down, but so that they're pushing themselves a little bit. And so some kids, you know, may need encouragement to practice driving to get their license. Other kids may need to be like, whoa, like, you don't, you know, you're not ready to take the driver's test because you've only driven once and you turned 16 yesterday. In Massachusetts, that's the age. But, you know, I was like, Knowing your kid and knowing how to balance them out. Independence is a good thing, and kids come to it at very different ages. Some are independent at 9, and some are not really independent at 23.

Mm-hmm. That's true.

We all know kids who fit into all of those. And they mostly come, you know, 90% of them, 85, 90% of them come to it by, you know, 25 or 30.

Mm-hmm. We can hope. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. But, but the other thing I'll say in terms of the sort of current news in psychology is that adolescence is extended. So there's this new area that, you know, you may have heard of called emerging adulthood. So rather than young adulthood, which is just sort of mini versions of regular adults, you know, people up to the age of 25, maybe even 28, are now considered emerging adults. You know, so they're interesting. Yeah. I mean, that term's been around for a while in psychology. I'm not sure how much it's made it into the popular press, but there's an idea that adolescence continues well into your 20s when it, you know, before that wasn't the case.

Yeah. People definitely don't know that. I think, I think, I think that what I hear from parents is I'm always blown away by their expectations of their young adults. And emerging into the real world and trying to make money and be independent. And that is a lot to learn at a young age.

It is. It is. And some kids learn it young because they have to, you know, their family can't support them or they have to help support their family. Other kids have a trust fund and don't necessarily need to learn it. But most parents in that situation, I think, want their kids, you know, to learn it for the sake of learning it, even if it doesn't material matter. So it's tough. Yeah. And some kids really, um, you know, stumble.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and I think that parents would say, um, do they— I'm, I'm just telling you the questions that I've heard. Do they let them fall on their own or do they step in? I think that's a hard thing to balance.

I think it's a very hard thing to balance. Yup. And I mean, you know, without knowing the particular situation, it's kind of hard to say, but I think there is, to a certain extent, you do have to let your kids kind of handle things or try to handle things on their own. I think some parents swoop in way too quickly and are sort of negotiating with the math teacher to get their kid an A instead of an A-. It's like, You know, some parents are way over the top in terms of trying to micromanage and protect from any disappointment. And then other parents are checked out and their kid goes to college and stops going to class. They don't know because the school is not allowed to contact them and they find out at the end of the semester, you know. So, I mean, I've seen all— I've seen the whole range, but it's very situation-specific and very kid-specific.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Can we talk about the adolescent phase of thinking that they know everything?

Yes.

And, and the funny thing is, is I remember that phase. I remember going from thinking I knew everything and my parents were, you know, not stupid, but you know what I mean?

Stupid.

Yeah. To going to, oh, I gotta ask my parents that question. You know, you like come back around.

So, Absolutely.

How do we get through this phase of our teenagers thinking they know everything?

Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of biting your tongue, um, and kind of letting them play around with it. I, I think, I mean, I think there is a generational trend, um, and maybe this is just because I'm now in the older generation, so maybe this happens every cycle, but I think there is with Gen Z in particular with regard to political issues and such, a real sense that they know everything and they definitely don't. But it's very sort of black and white, cut and dried, hard and fast, you know, what their views are. And I think it's problematic, you know, and I think, I think when it's in the workplace, because I've seen some of that, it's really problematic. You know, sort of walking around in your 20s thinking that your boss who's 50 knows less than you do, which could happen but isn't likely, you know.

Right.

But as far as a parent point of view with a kid, you know, my daughter's in college and she definitely knows everything. Very, very knowledgeable. And, you know, you sort of have to just, I mean, kind of roll your eyes and have a sense of humor. I mean, I think in general with kids, it's really important to have a sense of humor. And again, to remember that you come back around eventually, you know, as you said you did. And I know that's the same for me and a lot of people where, you know, they need to— they're experimenting with their sense of competence and their sense of efficacy. And I think there's something to be said for going through a phase where you do feel overconfident as a way of growing and building your own sense of who you are in the world separate from your parents. I mean, I think it's a if you think about it, it's really scary to separate from your parents, especially if you've had a good relationship, although frankly, even if you haven't. Um, and what's more comforting than thinking you know everything? You know, it's sort of a way to, I think, assuage the anxiety because there is a lot of anxiety about being separate and going out into the world. So if you think about it as a developmental task, that's kind of on target, I think it doesn't feel as personal. And again, talk to other parents, because when I talk to other parents, they're in the same boat and it makes me feel so much better.

Oh, that is so true on so many levels. And, you know, you saying that every child is different, you know, my son is driving now and I've had people be like, well, don't scare him. And I'm like, no, he needs to be scared.

But he's the kind of kid that—

yes, yes. And, you know, my daughter who is younger, it finds driving to be scary. So I wouldn't scare her, but he needs to be scared.

Right, exactly. No, you're always trying to balance, you know, to get to some equilibrium with their personality, their risk-reward system, you know, all the things that go on for each kid. Yeah, exactly.

Yes. Now you work so much in the educational field.

Yeah.

And I think that one of the most effective things we as parents can do is work effectively with teachers. Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering what your advice is to teachers and parents to work more effectively together. Yeah.

So I think that I also talk about empathy a lot for each other. Um, so I think what I noticed, because I work so much with teachers and parents, is that teachers don't really know what parents think and feel on the whole, and parents definitely don't know what teachers think and feel, you know, unless they overlap in their roles. And even then it's complicated. So, yeah, I think the thing for teachers to know about parents is that parents are very anxious. I think today's parents are more anxious than ever, you know, any generation before. But it's very scary to be a parent. It's very scary to take an infant home from the hospital when you don't have any experience taking care of infants. Um, it's very scary to have your kid have a medical crisis or find out that they're dyslexic, or you think they don't have any friends. Like, as a parent, everything that happens to your kid affects you profoundly. You feel totally responsible, um, and you're really worried that something's going to go wrong and you're not going to do a good job. And even if you act like a jerk In fact, sometimes it's the parents who act the most jerky that are actually the most insecure and nervous. So that when you sit down to meet with a parent about their child, you want to keep in mind how vulnerable that parent is. And one of the things I always say is that when I first worked at a high school, I was a consultant and I had a lot of discretionary time. Like, I could see parents at my private practice office whose kids went to the school. I could sit down with them for an hour, you know, and the school would pay me and talk to them. And what I found with the most difficult parents— those were usually the ones I invited to my office— was that there was generally some history of trauma or loss that affected their ability to trust the school and to have faith in other adults, and that that's why they were acting like a-holes to my colleagues. And usually once I went back and told my colleagues, look, these parents have been through XY, you know, their child almost died, or, you know, they're from a really low-income background. They're intimidated by this fancy school, whatever it was. When I could build teacher empathy for the parents, things went better. So that's one thing. As far as parents, what I want to tell them about teachers, the first fact is the teachers work 80 hours a week. Oh, boy! And they don't get the summer off. Spending the summer doing professional development, preparing their classes for the fall, going to the doctor because they don't have time to go during the year, spending a little bit of time with their families, that teachers are working like crazy to serve their children. There might be a couple of exceptions of teachers who don't do a great job. Of course there are. But by and large, they're killing themselves to serve your kids. You don't see it if you've never taught. You don't know what goes into preparing, you know, our lesson. It's, you know, 8 hours to prepare it, right, to do it really well. I mean, you know, so I think to just respect that these people are working much harder than you realize and to just have, you know, American culture does not respect or value teachers. I mean, in so many ways. And, and we don't pay them properly. We don't accord them the kind of respect that some other cultures do. And parents can really jump on that bandwagon. Oh, and the other thing is, a lot of parents, because they've raised kids and gone to school themselves, think that they know what the best math curriculum is or how an essay should be constructed. But You know, they don't. I mean, any more than a teacher knows how to give your kid a filling if they're not a dentist, right? Right. And so it's an area of expertise. The other thing I say too is that teachers know hundreds of 6th graders. You only know your own. And so take the wisdom that they have to offer. You know, they can compare your kid to other kids and give you information that you wouldn't know. Finally, they see a different kid than you do. So listen to their observations and what they say and take them seriously because kids are different in different contexts. We all are. So I think just to honor the wisdom of most teachers that I know.

I'm always so curious to hear what they're going to say about my child. What is my child like at school? Let's go find out. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And it's really interesting.

It is. It's so interesting. Yes. And I always try to tell them that I want to hear— how do I want to say this? I don't want teachers to feel like they can't tell parents maybe something that their child needs to work on, right? Like, we want to be open. For me, I would like parents to be open to the feedback to the teachers, and I want the teachers to feel comfortable so that we can work together and be helpful to them, you know.

Right. Be a team. And yes, just have precious information about your kid that you would never know.

Yes, yes. We're not, we're not there for the whole day. Yeah, we're not there at all.

You don't know what they're like in a social group. You don't know how they do math. Like, you know, these are all things that teachers are like such a treasure trove of information. Some of it's unwelcome or upsetting, but It's, you know, teachers flag stuff that parents would never know about, good and bad, you know.

Yes, yes. Oh, when the teachers tell me that my son is funny in school, I'm like, yes, he's talking.

Yes, because he's quieter at home. Exactly.

He's like, you know, he's quiet, so I like to hear that he's joking around. Exactly.

No, that's great. It's so reassuring.

Yes. Yeah, right. Yes. Oh my gosh, you have So much good advice to give us. I, I, this is, was really helpful for me too. I really loved this.

Oh, good. Good.

So what else do you want to share that I didn't think to ask you?

Oh, um, well, I would say, I mean, as a child psychologist, I would just sort of put in a plug for therapy that, you know, if your kid is having trouble, um, even if it's relatively minor in the greater scheme of things, like reach out for professional help. You can talk to a child psychologist for a consult even without bringing your kid. You know, if you just want advice, you can run something by them or the pediatrician.

Oh, that's, that's good to know.

Tap into resources at school if your school has them. I mean, if you know that there's one guidance counselor for 500 kids, that might not be your go-to. But if you're lucky enough that your kid's school has someone who's really available and other parents say they're useful, you can run stuff by them again without ever referring your kid. Um, and a lot of kids today will ask to see a therapist. And I think some cultures don't think about mental health the same way that sort of, you know, current kind of mainstream American culture does. Even if you're from a culture that doesn't think about that stuff, your kids, if they're being educated in the US, are probably more comfortable with therapy from TikTok or TV shows or things like that. You know, reach out for help because, um, there's people that are trained and, you know, that really live to do this stuff and can make a big difference in a relatively short period of time because kids are developing and moving forward anyway. And so if you as a therapist hop on that train and kind of help them find their way, you know, it's, it's worth, you know, seeking out mental health support.

Totally agree. And I also don't like The pressure. I don't want to be the only adult in their lives, you know? I like— like, right. I like collecting wonderful adults, right? To have in their life.

It's not competition. You know, they're always going to love you best. But it's great for them to have someone else they can talk to. And to that point, I would actually say, even if it's not a therapist, if there's a teacher or a coach, know that your kid has some other adult, especially in their teenage years, that they're talking to, because that's invaluable.

Totally agree. Well, tell everyone where they can go find you.

Oh yeah. So my website, um, is the best place to find me, which is, um, deborahoffnerphd.com. Um, I also have a profile on Psychology Today if you just put my name in. Um, and I live about 8 miles outside of Boston. Um, I do work with kids and families remotely, and with schools I do a lot of professional development also remotely, or I travel. Um, and yeah, um, feel free to look me up.

Well, you are a wealth of knowledge, as I knew you would be. When I was reading all about you, I was like, I cannot wait to talk to this lady.

Thank you so much. This is fun.

Oh my gosh. Well, I had such a good time. Thank you so much.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

This is Rebecca Greene reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

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