Episode 344: The Art of Peaceful Co-parenting

No need to whine, it's whiny palooza. Have some wine and join us on the whiny palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene. Welcome to the whiny palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family. Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Whiny Blues A Podcast, and I am so excited today because I get to talk to the wonderful Kimberly Mansfield. Kimberly, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Entirely my pleasure. I was really excited. When I get really excited about podcasts and things like that, even clients, like, I don't sleep the night before.

I really don't.

So I get up and go, I'm tired, but I'm so excited. It was one of those.

Oh my God, I totally understand. And I was just telling Kimberly that her expertise couldn't be more perfect for the stressors that I've been hearing around me. And I want to tell you a little bit about Kimberly. She is a lawyer and Clarity Catalyst specializing in family law with a focus on divorce and custody. She serves as a personal presence and communication skills consultant— that was a mouthful— offering strategic insights and guidance and empowering clients through intentional living and effective communication. Her work is centered on helping individuals navigate legal challenges while fostering personal growth and improved communication skills. Well, as you know, I couldn't be more excited to learn from you. I think that this is going to be so tremendously helpful. And I really want to start with what inspired you to specialize in family law, particularly in divorce and custody matters.

Well, for starters, I started law school and said there's two things I know I will never be. Is, um, a defense attorney and a family law attorney. And I mean, and, and I was a— I'm a third year, third career, um, family law attorney. So I've done lots of other things. I, you know, I'm on the third iteration career-wise for myself. And, but, and I never say never. That's one thing I know in life, like, never say never. And I don't unless I'm really, really sure. And I was so sure And through the course of law school, I had some really crazy fortunate things happen. I clerked for the Chief Justice of the Oregon Supreme Court, and he was a big defense-minded, justice-minded, second chances kind of guy. And we co-founded a legal clinic during my last year of law school, and it is for people reentering from incarceration, and so that we can affect reduction of recidivism so people don't go out and reoffend. So we started that, and lots of the— and I— and we help on the civil side, so I'm not on the, um, criminal defense or prosecution, but on the civil side we had lots of family law stuff. Um, and you know, as soon as you attached humans to that equation, it, it all just landed on me. And I, I was the first to admit, like, I said, never, I'm eating that one. And then, um, my law school mentor through who was a couple years ahead of me and who was practicing family law and was a conferring attorney before I had my license for the clinic and that. And he showed up right after I actually did get my license, and he just appeared at a dinner we were having for the clinic, and he showed up with my business cards and a picture of my name on the door of the office of the firm. So I was like, well, apparently I'm a family law attorney.

Oh my goodness.

And I, you know, I still run the legal clinic. It's 11 years old, was in January, but I also— so that's a part of it. But in private practice, I'm in family law practice and I have— I was a litigator and a trial attorney until the last— well, until COVID. And then we were still doing trials and litigating. But I have since pivoted away from the active litigation side because this whole kind of the whole coaching and support side. So that is what I do now. I am a divorce custody attorney who does litigation support and coaching. And wow, there are a bunch of reasons for that. I don't know if this is the time to kind of chime in with those.

Absolutely.

So Here's a big thing that individuals going through this, um, don't know, and I don't expect them to know about the lawyers that they're going to be working with. Family law attorneys have abysmal, abysmal health and well-being statistics. I'm talking about mental health, uh, issues, substance and alcohol abuse issues. Suicide is a biggie. Um, all kinds of things that they don't know. So It's— we take this stuff on and in, and it's— yeah, it's off the charts. We are also the most— I've never added this in a talk before, but I will mention because sometimes it hits home— that we are the most— I don't even know how to put this— um, of all the attorneys out there, ours is the most dangerous. Let's say that. Oh, that— when you hear about, um, attorneys getting popped on courthouse steps. That's a reality. And we are the most— above and beyond, um, criminal defense attorneys, which would have been my guess to be the most. But my understanding is, um, uh, that it's us. Um, and my thing in having hundreds and hundreds of clients over the years now is there's too much angst on both sides of the table. And that I watch my colleagues be affected. I watch myself be affected, and we're trying so hard to do things that are really, you know, our passion project. For most attorneys, um, family law, you know, is usually has that real personal impetus to it. But it's how do we serve both sides? And I was like all about my clients. How do I serve both? And then it really hit home because several years ago I lost a very good friend who was a colleague, and, um, the practice, you know, ate her alive. And she was 43 years old.

Oh goodness.

So I jumped on with the Bar Association and helped close down her practice over the next 2 years. And it wasn't until— sorry, I keep losing a bud here— um, it wasn't until the end of that 2 years that I realized, um, once we signed, it was done, and the court said it's closed, it's done, and all— I had taken care of all our clients, um, that I hadn't grieved in that time. And it landed like a brick. And the realization, like, wait, none of this had to happen. It just doesn't have to be like this. Um, I touched and looked at her signature on papers every single day, and I all— I had to just do the work. And it took, you know, 2 years later, an accumulation of things, and I That moved the needle for me. It's like, it doesn't have to be like this. So, but how do I keep helping clients and help my colleagues and myself? And I think that if you can perspective shift, expectation manage, shift the perspective on the client side, you help both. You can serve both sides. And that those things are really available. And yet attorneys— it's not the attorney's job to do that, really. I mean, expectation management, things like that, but they are supposed to be the procedural prowess, right?

Yeah.

And I think the real clincher is exactly what you started with, is this is so many people affected. I mean, I'm not advocating for anyone to get divorced or to separate from, you know, her. That is not it. But Statistically, it is more likely than not because it's more than halfway, and that, that is a sea change opportunity, right? There's so many people. If we can shift the perspective on the process and how you can go through it and what you can get out of it, that's just ripe for a sea change of how this is. And we can flip the script, but people don't know this.

Mm-hmm.

And they don't know where to start. No. And they don't know how to go about it. What I hear from clients they do know is overwhelm, confusion, frustration, don't know what I don't know, helpless, hopeless, heartbroken. Uh, that's what I hear from clients. It's like, it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't. And, and honestly, in shifting the perspective, you have a much higher likelihood of not leaving your utmost case on the table. Um, because if you are not looking into the circuitry and the chemistry and shifting these things, you know, in the growth perspective, you are leaving your utmost case on the table. I'm not saying you'll win or lose or whatever. What I'm saying is your absolute utmost case is more than the case. It's your life. And where kiddos are involved, it's your parenting. So it's also your input and, you know, influence on another generation. And it's doable. There is not one person who is powerless to move the needle in these situations. Move the needle. It might be a micro move, but never ever are individuals powerless. And when people hear that, one, I don't know if it's dismay or the sky opens, but they're, they kind of look like, um, how the heck What does that mean? But it's true. And it really takes individuals who at the, one of the toughest junctures in their life are willing to say, you know, maybe open one eye to where are my blind spots? Because blind spots are opportunities. Where are the red flags? And I try not to call them red flags, but there are some really big red flags that come out because you know what? They're opportunities. That's the opportunity. And there will never ever be a bigger or better opportunity to impact your kids. And there will never ever be a better or bigger opportunity to impact your kids. So the reason being that you are disengaging from the other half of them, because kids don't articulate it, but They're, you know, the psychology is they think they're both. So if you're disintegrating, and what that means is things are integrated, disintegrating. How does that happen? I'm sure you are well aware, and, but I think I find that a lot of people aren't, that it is not divorce itself that negatively impacts kiddos. It's how it's gone about. And that's a big onus to put on the parents. But you know what? They're the grownups. Um, and so if they want it to be the utmost, I never say the best because best is so subjective, but the utmost, they gotta dig in. Um, and people like, how I layer this on top of everything I'm already doing? It's like, well, no, I think there's ways to integrate it in what you are already doing so that you can actually go about this in a less overwhelmed, less stressed, less hopeless, less helpless, less, you know, fearful way.

Yeah. So, I mean, I took notes on so many questions. You just said such a huge, wonderful mouthful. And I love the tea.

It's the caffeine.

A lot of caffeine. So bear with us. But I love that your friend inspired this shift. I mean, what a tribute to her that this is what you're doing now. And, you know, I think that I see parents in such a bad emotional state that intellectually, you know, that you have to take care of your kids. But I think that's so hard when you emotionally are not in a good place to think about what's best for your kids. Right. So if we want to give parents advice on steps that they can be taking in their divorce to make it easier on their kids, can you give them some advice?

Every single client that has ever walked in, even when I was litigating or otherwise, not one first meeting did I not say, if there is a time in your life that you need it, um, that it, it would behoove you to get counseling, it's now. So if you're not already in counseling, get in counseling. And now— and that was, um, I've been practicing 10 years— and now the statement would be get a counselor or coach. Because really, us divorce custody coaches, like, it wasn't a thing then. That wasn't an option for me to send people to. We could have found them. And I am not advocating for or against the counseling. If there are mental health issues involved or real, you know, stress, then I think that is absolutely— they're different things. But there's a lot of people that fall in between. And that is what I realized. There's a lot of people like, I'm not, you know, I don't really need. And it's like, yeah, I kind of agree with you, but you need somewhere to go. And that was where there is to go. And now there are plenty, there are me's out there, right? And to go look and have chats with individuals. Most of us will do like free chats, 30-minute chats. Let's get on the phone. Let's find out where your opportunities are because I guarantee you're not going to see them all right now.

I love that you're calling it opportunity. That's a great perspective shift right there.

It's a word that people aren't thinking when they're in the trenches. No way. They're, they're thinking, um, well, here you fill in the blank. It is a custody blank. What do they call it?

What do you hear?

That's the word. And that's the first word that's going to go out the door. It is the first word that's going to go out the door. Because if you say, I'm in a battle, what is your body? What does your system do? It gears up for battle. If you say, I'm navigating a transition, your body might not know what to do, but it doesn't gear up for battle. Words are things. And we can change the shape and the circuitry and the grooves in our head by changing the words we use. And opportunity is huge.

Yes.

And yes, it's a nonlinear approach to having a better outcome in your case, but it works because outcome in your case isn't only what's going to be written on that judgment in the end. It's going to be so much bigger than that.

Absolutely.

Um, so yeah, I find that that word is a gold mine. So I would say, you know, the counseling or coaching, whichever It is get some insights, get some perspective because your perspective is one perspective, but you're in a bubble and you're probably got blinders on to a certain extent and getting some outside insights. Yeah, in a confidential, protected scenario where you can take them or leave them. I mean, I tell people that it's like, I'll give you my impressions, I'll give you my insights, I'll give you the opportunities. What you do with them. Is your deal. I can't make you do them, do them. I can't make you open your brain in this way. I know it will benefit you if you do. So you, you got to bring something to the table. I think that's a biggie. I think that making Mr. Google your best friend and finding out everything you can about the verbiage and the language and, and all of that stuff. And I think it's important that people understand you need to be very jurisdiction-specific when you're searching. You don't get to pull this great law from Tennessee and wave it around and go, look, they say you got it. It's like, well, not here in Oregon.

They don't.

Not here in Buffalo, New York. They don't. Family law is what we call statutory. So it changes by state. Statute is, you know, state law. So I think that's a biggie because I see people getting really confused and getting themselves frustrated in ways they don't have to get frustrated. Um, and, and that's a big one. Stop saying my or mine in relation to the kid. Those words, I'm gonna rip them right outta your vocabulary because one, in your mind, again, you're eliminating the other half of this child. Two, judges know that is a red flag to judges when they come in. I don't want my child, blah, blah, blah, and my, my, and it's like, you didn't hatch this thing on your own. So it is our, it is always our.

Okay.

And let's just go, let's say you're, you know, working back and forth with the other parent on things and everything. What do you think stands a chance at going over better? Me saying, look, I don't want my daughter going to the, like, a PG movie. She's 10 years old. I think this, or saying, I'm not really comfortable with our daughter. Like seeing a movie that's, you know, beyond her recommended age. Which one? Which one stands a better chance? There aren't any guarantees. We can't control— we don't pull the strings on everyone else, right? We will— that will always be outside our purview. But which one is less likely to ignite the system? Get the I's and the me's and the mine's out of it. Make it about the kids. Because also what that suggests to judges and what they hear is Oh, this is about the adults. The words I'm hearing are about the adults. This is acrimony between the adults. Um, so those are bigger biggies. Lose the F-word. Fair. Fair doesn't belong anywhere in any of this. There's not one single state that says we're going to find a fair, you know, allocation of this, division of that, assignment of custody, parenting time, whatever. Not one time. And people like, but it is fair. It's not fair. It's like, yeah, the sooner you lose that word, the better you're going to feel because that is not— and judges are only too happy to rip that word out of your vocabulary. And that's not where you want it to happen. And I've listened to it happen, not my clients, because they don't get to say that in court, but other clients on the other side. And I just go, oh, you know, I feel for them too, because I know what the judge is thinking, like you're— that they haven't done their homework. That their perspective is very personal. Um, and, and by that I mean adult-centered. This is personal. All of this is personal. Um, I think get some insights that, that the court matters and much of this is procedural, not personal. That it's not you. You're not being targeted. You're not being put through the wringer. Um, I do not subscribe to people who say that the family court system's corrupt. It's like, well, okay, I don't think it's corrupt. There's no incentive to be gained in the corruption. I think it might be inept, and I think that there are human consequences to that. Um, but if you talk to judges— I mean, I would never want to be a judge, and I mean that never. I mean that never. Um, because you're in an impossible situation, and they'll say that. Yeah, look, y'all, you're the parents. Get in it. You know, they provide mediation, is usually mandated where there are kiddos involved, and get in there. You're the family. Do your work, because I'm the judge. I have a thimble full of information, and I don't want to decide this for you. I will, it's my job, but I really don't wanna. I mean, and that people too often go in wanting the court to make character calls. 'Well, I'm a better person, they're a worse person.' I'm not saying they say that. I'm saying that's what comes out in what they put forward. And it's like, that's not what the court's looking at. Court's looking at the best interest of the child, children. You have to know that that is a massive range, okay? Massive. Um, so they don't expect parents to parent alike. They don't expect parents to get along. They don't— they— I mean, people are you know, transitioning apart, usually for very good reasons. And so they don't expect any of those things. And that it's a— people are always like, yeah, but this, that, why do they get any time, whatever? Well, here's the answer. Because there's this pesky little thing called the Constitution, as in the US Constitution, that entitles parents to make decisions for their children, have a part in their life. So you really— it's going to be disparate between households, between individuals, between styles, between, you know, all kinds of things. And that's, that is a quick reality to grasp. And the more disparate, the harder that is, right? I, I mean, it never feels good and I'm not saying it should, but some expectation management on what the judges have to accord. And I'm not gonna, to, we don't have nearly enough time to go into really significant instances of domestic violence. And, you know, abuse and all that. Like, clearly there are carve-outs and exceptions on things, but they have to be pretty darn extreme because there is this overwhelming right. And beyond that, the longitudinal research shows that it's better for the child to have contact with both parents, even if it's in a— in a safety-focused, um, situation. Meaning, for you know, mid to older age kiddos, maybe that's the— you just see them in public, you know, go meet places in the public setting, or otherwise it might be supervised for younger kiddos who can't articulate for themselves and that sort of thing. You know, like, we can make all sorts of safety considerations. We know, um, it's even better where— I mean, where there wasn't— and I'm just going to make a caveat that there wasn't, um, massive direct abuse on the individual child, but even judges will make orders that say, look, there needs to be some visits when individuals might be imprisoned, a parent in prison. Kids need that to know where both sides of them came from. Sometimes we even winnow it down to maybe it's phone calls, maybe it's only letters. Some contact we know— longitudinal study means they've studied kids over, you know, numerous years out into adulthood and looked at the impact that it has on them and has on the relationships with their parents and then their personal relationships. Because there's not a single parent, as you and I both know, that's going to say my child's not a sponge. It's all kids are.

They—

it's, it's just by virtue of being the product of two humans and being, you know, in growth mode, it— they're sponges. Oh, I don't talk around my kids. I go in the other room. Um, when I'm on the phone, I— all this, it's like, oh my good grief gracious. No, they're still sucking it up.

They hear everything.

And they— and that if you're carrying that stress and tension around, they're sucking that up.

I know. They feel it.

And it's not their choice. I don't know if you've read— this is one of my favorite studies, and it really blows my clients' minds. And it often is sort of that crack in the veneer when they're like, oh, really? Okay. And they actually start listening to new shifted perspectives and insights. So they did a study, I wanna say Stanford, I could be totally off on the coast of the university and that, but they, uh, where they studied the sweat, the, um, and everything. So what they did is they had individuals who just went out and like sweated for exercise and they collected their sweatshirts. Um, and then some who were in stress environments, so stressful relationship, exams, I think they used it in exams and things like that. And so they gathered up all of their, you know, their sweatshirts. So they have all this stinky stuff, right? And then they took individuals, and of course they're monitoring their blood contemporaneously with doing these. And when they sniff the sweatshirts and watching the biomarkers, the stress biomarkers go up in the individuals who were in stress sweat sweatshirts versus the ones that were in some other activity, you know, and they used athletics because obviously sweat a lot, but that's usually more of a flow activity, a stress of its own. But eustress, or good stress as we'd call it. So if you think that by virtue of not speaking, articulating these things around your kids, that they are not getting this and it's not affecting their little systems, that's just patently false. It's hard. It's hard to grasp that because I'm not saying don't feel, don't have emotions. You're going to have them. That's totally natural, totally expected, totally normal. It's about not being a puppet to them. And about if there is one time in your life that you take yourself to task to learn healthy self-regulation, this is it. Not only does it improve your health, it improves your kids' health. It teaches them, you know, I mean, you are modeling throughout this their relationships for the future and that it's okay if you need to disentangle those relationships at a time. For good reason and how to do it healthily. You're the model. You're their number one model. So never, ever, ever is there a bigger, more important opportunity to bring in this side of things. And I mean, I think it's new. I think it hasn't been talked about out there. I'm not expecting people to, to know things they don't know. Um, but I think again, there is opportunity for sea change if we change the language. Around this. And parents are busy. It just is. It is. That's a given. They're gonna be busy and they're gonna be weighed down and they're going to be fearful and unnerved and sad and all sorts of things. And I never, ever, ever mean to diminish any of those, but I am in the point of, okay, what do we do? What can we do? And sometimes those are micro adjustments because that's what we can do in the moment. But just like, uh, investments or whatever, we hear this, like the aggregation of marginal gains, those marginal gains start to open up to a different way of doing things, and then you can build on them. And then in our brain, you can keep that battle word if you want, but I promise you that if you keep the battle word, you're gonna have a battle and you're gonna be in a panel and my clients that wouldn't relinquish it. Like, every once in a while— I'm not sure what sort of, um, it's not amusement, but every once in a while I'll pop into the electronic court record and check on clients, um, and go, oh, I knew it. And they've been in even after we disengaged. Often I fired them, um, oh boy, because they won't get out of this entrenchment and they are, they are putting themselves into future litigation. And I can see it coming down the pike and I'm like, I can't take your money to keep going down this path. Um, I am the steward of my client's finances, and I take that really seriously. And then I'll look, and here it is, 2 years later, and they are just frequent flyers in the court. And all I can think of is, oh, this 3-year-old, this 3-year-old that's getting this, um, from both sides. So I never want to diminish that, but I do want to get into, okay, yes, these are the things that exist, what can we do? What can we do to make micro upgrades along the way? And maybe one of the coolest testimonials— well, two of them that I'll share that come to mind are I had a, a guy client. I, I talk to women and men. Um, I don't even know where that division is. Um, and I've had, you know, male and female clients along, so dads and moms both. It really depends on the individual client. I have a pretty high criteria. If they don't kind of fit this sort of from the outset, it's probably not a good fit, and I'll give them other recommendations. But, um, a client, and he was going into a hearing, and it'd been kind of a protracted thing. They go, look, here's what you haven't, you know, we haven't tried. And we had like a 90-minute conversation the day before a hearing, and because he, you know, had waited till the last minute to reach back out, and we had really intense— and he was taking notes on all of this, and he was going in and what to say and what not to say and all of this, because not only does it affect the transition, transaction in court, it affects your own chemistry and all of this. And then I saw him 2 days later and he ran across the street and he's like, oh my gosh, and all this. He's like, this is like the coolest. I was like, really? Court went well? He goes, well, yeah, yeah, court went well. And it's never been like that. We've been to court a million times and it was definitely different than it's ever been in good ways. He goes, but here's the thing, I went into work yesterday and apparently I was using some of this stuff at work and everything went better. He goes, to the point that people said, what's up with you? And he's like, but it just worked. And I was like, yeah, yeah, these are life skills. This isn't just for the duration and you walk away from them and put them down. To get this input is an investment, like, for now and forever. And I think the other coolest to me that landed because of, like you said, what inspired me to get into it, my, my friends. And it's like that I want to— my theory is that if I can reach the clients, it will go out that next wave to the attorneys, right? It'll be harder to monitor that. It'll be harder to hear about. But straight off the gate, out of the gate, I had— actually, she was in New York and a client, and I did a group of 6 women. They were in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, and she was an attorney. And she was 3 years into her divorce custody, so it had been protracted. And, um, and she had an attorney, of course, um, and she had been working with me, but she hadn't told her family law attorney this. But I got this email one day a few weeks in, and she said, my attorney turned to me today in a meeting and said, like, I don't know what's different, but something's different. So whatever you're doing, keep doing it. It's like, I knew it. Oh, I knew that we could push that out, that next layer, that we can actually benefit this whole thing. I, I don't mean this in the wrong way, and I never want to push this on parents when they're stressed, and, and I never want to add to the angst. But to lower the angst on both sides, I'll tell you what, you want to be a better— you want a better attorney if you have an attorney? And not everyone does, but if you want a better attorney, be their best client. People like what? I don't have that kind of money. It's like oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, save their cognitive load when they go to open an email from you. You will have a better attorney. You will have— I mean, I have clients who I will open their email, dive right in, be able to pop back a response at that. And I have other clients who they pop in my inbox and I have to schedule a time on my calendar to sit down because I know that I'm gonna have to parse through this like long arm's length run-on thing and try and find the questions and all of that. So let— where do we hear cha-ching? Well, both, probably a lot louder on the second. And I try to tell them that. I tell them over and over, like, you, you are costing yourself a fortune by doing that. So here's a biggie I should have put right up front when you said, what are the tips? Ditch the emotional narrative. You got to lose the emotional narrative. You got to cut it out and stick to facts and observations as you experience them. Oh, boy. Is that the emotional narrative? And people like, but I want you to know, if you would listen to me and I go, look, we've been around this block 3 times and now I'm charging you for the 3rd time and I'm not comfortable with that. I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable. And they're like, but you're not, you don't get it. It's like, yeah, I do. We actually go into this because we know how important this is to people. It's as if, if they could make me understand how important it is to them, somehow it will change what I have to, you know, my input on the topic. I'm like, oh no, no, no.

Can you tell us the difference between emotional stuff and facts? Can you show us an example?

Um, well, here's a bunch of words that I think illustrate that, that I also on my you're going to lose these words list. Let's just use— this is a huge run right now— um, is, um, narcissist. Um, you know, he, she is a total narcissist, blah blah, and all this. It's like, that tells me nothing. First of all, don't ever utter that word in court unless you are a clinician and that is a clinical term that deserves a diagnosis. What you want to do is offer up the things so that if you said— and I say, because why— and you make a list of things, the whys, let the, let the judge pull, make the conclusion. Okay, you got to stay out of clinical terms, you know, Their anxiety and depression is off the charts.

Mm.

Are they diagnosed? Maybe they are. I'm not saying that that decides cases. Okay. First of all, I don't wanna put that out there, but maybe they are, but often they're not. You know, more often these clinical terms get thrown around and they become buzzwords. I mean, narcissism right now is such a buzzword and so few people, uh, even understand the clinical depth. I get it. Narcissistic traits, narcissistic this, we try to tap dance around it. Yeah. It is more meaningful to get to the actual what happened and bullet things, bullet them out, whether it's to your attorney, to opposing counsel if you don't have an attorney, to the opposing person for that matter, certainly to court or to a judge. Bullet things. I tell clients, look, I don't even use complete punctuation and I cut words out all over. You know why? Which one are going to stick? Which one does the judge have to work harder, or the opposing counsel or the opposing party for that matter have to work harder to read. The ones that, you know, are riddled, long-going, all this, I don't. I use bullets all the time. You know how I know judges love it? Because they cut and paste my stuff and put it in the judgment or in their opinion.

That's— no, that's really good advice because I will tell you, I don't know a lot of what you're teaching me, and I think that you sound What I keep thinking is you sound so rational, and if we could make people more rational, we would have less conflict. But that's not an easy task.

No. Well, and, you know, the whole point is what most of the people I talk to would say, well, I am rational, but the other, you know, whatever. And it's like, okay, let's just say nobody is rational or irrational. That gets in, you know, too close to the, you know, she's crazy, you know, thing for, for me. But, but it, it, that there can be a levelness to it. And that is where your brain, you know, can be creative and think outside the box and can see more facets to everything that's going on. And the more of those you can pull in, the more informed of decisions you're going to be making, the more, you know, it's It's— these are not— they don't come naturally because of our, you know, because we were cave people and we had to run from saber-toothed tigers. I get why we react defensively and all this. I get all the chemistry, but it's not helping us here. And no matter how much you think your ex is a saber-toothed tiger, they're not. And that, that's not going to get you even any traction, even if they are. So, okay, it's just not going to get you traction.

So let's say that the parents You know, this is so common. They just can't stand each other and they have kids together and they have to communicate. So advice to the mom listening right now who can't stand her ex and his new wife and has to deal with them and has to co-parent with them. Can you give her some advice?

First of all, I feel you. It's hard. And it is not for the faint-hearted, but you are a parent. So my opinion is, um, your kids deserve for you to take yourself to task. I had a client, great client, um, and she, in going through this, and she, they had been in a protracted, had a parenting coordinator for like 7 years. They were on opposite coasts, like it, and the kiddos with were with her out here and She was really about, how do I not contribute to this? I, I don't mean to contribute, but I think I probably am because I don't know otherwise. How do I contribute less? And she was very— she was, I mean, really ahead of the curve even then. But she was wise enough to say, how do I not contribute? And so we took even some of her emails, and so she would pitch me emails. These are some of the most brilliant examples I've I've ever lifetime worked our way through where she would send me emails over simple things like exchanging kiddos or when, you know, scheduling vacations or that sort of thing. And I said, okay, send me your emails before you send them and let's work through them because then you're going— they're going to be kind of a template and you will be able to apply them onto the next one sending. So they were full of— and she was pretty— and she knew to be pretty brief, but they were full of The kids can't do this because, uh, we, who are her new husband, have, um, plans, and I can bring them the whatever. And I— there were lots of I's and we's, meaning her and her husband. Uh, and so what we did was we cleaned them up, and I went through and took out every I and every we and put in, um, when— like, look at the upside, not the can't be available. The cam these days, um, can bring them to your place, happy to drop them off, whatever. And she sent this. It just changed the angle. That's all it did. We just changed the language. The content was exactly the same. She lost nothing in this. And of course, the next day she's like, sends me the email back from Dad in North Carolina, and she's just scratching it. She goes, I have never— this is unprecedented, the response I got. The, the lack of snapback vitriol. Like, he— like, they don't need to know why they're, they're reacting differently, but the fact is that is the, the potential. Can't guarantee it. Not everyone reacts the same. Certainly sometimes people, it takes longer because there's trust issues, so it takes kind of getting consistent in that rewording. Before they sort of, you know, let their guard down enough to participate on a different level. But hers was straight off. She's like, never happened. I've never received this. And, and his email was only like 2 lines, 3 lines. It was that profound. So that's what's out there. That's the potential. And the fact is, I do not— the blame, shame, finger-pointing, done, out, gone. We won't spend money on it. It doesn't matter, quite frankly, um, what the other side's doing. It is never an excuse for poor behavior on my client's side. It's like the— again, opportunity. If you're feeling sucked into the second they're like, well, I— well, they— and it's like, you know, stay in your lane and get in the driver's seat and kick your, you know, emotions in the back seat. You get to have them, you get to keep them, but we're going to use them, uh, as a basis for better approaches and better putting things out. And it's— I would say more often than not, when people get in this consistently, there is a shift on the other side, even if they don't— the other side doesn't necessarily know it. There are shifts. You can't change one part of any equation without changing the whole. Right? Yeah, we're all animals. You have to recognize there's an animal on both sides of the desk with attorneys or, or opposing counsel. There's an animal on the other end of the phone. We are animal circuitry and chemistry, and if you're not taking that into account in your approach, you are leaving your utmost on the table.

Such good advice. Wow, I, I am amazed with what you do. God bless you.

Well, thank you.

So to the mom listening who is just feeling very overwhelmed, maybe doesn't know where to begin, just thinks the whole thing is just so much, I mean, can you, can you give her some advice on, on how to feel less overwhelmed?

Action. Take action. And that might mean Googling a bunch of stuff and learning, um, a bunch of the verbiage that goes along with these things in your, in your jurisdiction. Again, we don't even call things all the same things, okay? And yeah, Oregon, we call it spousal support. We don't use the word alimony. Some states still use alimony. In Oregon, we don't. I think this is a brilliant shift. We do not call parenting time visitation. You don't visit with a parent. The child doesn't visit with a parent. You don't visit with your child. You have parenting time, and the child has parenting time with that parent. It's the child's parenting time with that parent. It is not the parent's ownership of the child for that period. So we— there are different things in different states, but again, just switching that word switches how it's processed in our brains.

Yeah.

Never saying, well, I let the child go do whatever. It's like, um, you know, those are those things again. Sounds like ownership. Anything that smells of ownership and here and taking action. Get on the phone, get on an email list, get a meeting, get a 30-minute consult. First of all, I'm going to invite everybody. I do— get on my website, it's skilledclarity.com, and if you're in Oregon, there's a, a tab, and if you're anywhere outside of Oregon, there's a tab. Pick your tab and let's get on a 30-minute call, because again, I will— if you're willing to have a chat and you want to find out where a few blind spots opportunities might lie or where, you know, what some just insights are, taking that action and getting a little really safe, confidential feedback can, I mean, be the massive stepping stone. I mean, we all need support going through these. You, you're gonna have friends and family, you know, and everybody, and people are gonna chime in. And I say be really not wary of, but I think that, um, the allies that jump on are like, yeah, they're so awful. Yeah, I would do this. Oh, you need to whatever. Or my divorce or custody went like, or whatever. Like, you really need to, to probably dial down the volume on those a little bit because no two cases are alike, identical, different dynamics, different humans, different needs, different judges, different jurisdictions, different courtrooms. Like, all of that you know, um, means they're not identical. And what the law was, you know, I got divorced 10 years ago and blah blah. It's like, well, the law might have changed. So I've had that happen. It's like, yeah, the judges don't— like, we've shifted those things. We've shifted how they start determining, you know, what the baseline determination for parenting time is before they might start making findings and adjusting away. Okay, the default sort of things. May have changed. I mean, there's lots of things that may have been allowed before. So I think taking action, and I think getting some input. Again, there's, there's many mes out there now. There didn't used to be. But I think also calling— if you're, you know, it's worth bouncing off of a family law attorney as well. And that may not help you on the how do I just go through this better, meaning co-parenting afterwards and that, or how do I— but if you need the legal advice to get some legal footing or understanding, then we're dime a dozen. Get consults. Um, and in Oregon I do both because I can— I'm licensed in Oregon, so I can practice, you know, law in Oregon. So I, I'm dual purpose there. Um, the things outside of Oregon, and now that I, I've had clients across the country and in the middle, so I know that it still works is I just shift up a little, like, look into a law that's similar to this in your state, or you need to be asking these questions about how things work in your state, or that— I don't tell them how it works in their state because I can't advise directly on their law, but I can bring up enough things, and I've had enough clients to know that they can still put it to work. And then all of the perspective and insights and, um, processing and shifting still, still come in and still hold water.

So, so, go ahead. So what I want to, so what I want to tell you is that as somebody who is not going through a divorce and hopefully will never go through a divorce, you helped me. I mean, you helped everything you said. I mean, I think I can really work on my language, and I think that we can take what you said to life skills in general and not just with divorce. So I wanted to tell you that.

Well, and, um, on that note, if, if you go to the website, you'll see that, I mean, I do both. So the Skilled Clarity is, yeah, and that might be people who are continuing after that, or I have various clients that are not, did not come through the divorce custody pipeline, but where it is just a personal, um, I don't know, it's usually people who want to fine-tune life and how they show up for it, who want a little less angst in their life too. And sometimes it's individuals who don't really wanna turn their life on their head and make these mass changes. How do I make big changes and all? It's like, how do I just upgrade my life in the moment? How do I not leave my utmost on the table every day? And it's like, oh, I've, you know, plenty to work with there. Plenty.

I mean, just changing, just changing a few words can change so much.

Absolutely.

I mean, you showed me that today. I mean, I, I can't thank you enough. This was so good, so helpful. I, I guarantee you that putting this out there will help people.

Awesome. I think that's great. And I know I just, um, if there's two takeaways, just remember everyone that no one— everyone acknowledges this is one of the most emotionally wretching you know, not wretched, but ratcheting, gut-wrenching situations you're going to deal with in life. It's on that list of top 5 things that we fear and that you are never, ever, ever powerless to move the needle, even if it's a tiny bit, and that it will spill out into the rest of your life. And just know that coaches can come alongside while you have an attorney. Or if you, if you're going at pro se, meaning self-represented, then, you know, coaches can be a big support there as well. But I think it's important to get that outlet and that sounding board because the court is not your, um, is not where you want to throw all that emotional narrative. Mm-hmm. And your emotions are costing you a fortune.

Mm-hmm.

In economic, in economic costs and in non-economic costs. And there's another way to do it.

Excellent takeaways, excellent summarization, and I can't thank you enough for your time and your expertise today. You—

my pleasure. Awesome.

This is, this is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Whiny Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, Please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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