Episode 429: Exploring Psychological Safety At Work and Beyond.

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No need to whine and sigh. The Winey Palooza! Have some wine and join us on the Winey Palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the Winey Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to the wonderful Dr. Ab— Dr. Abby— Dr. Let's start over. No, I'm kidding. Dr. Amber Tishner. I'm so worried about her last name that I'm mispronouncing her first name.

You got it. It's all good.

Dr. Amber. It's a beautiful name, and she is an organizational psychologist, founder of Dr. Ab— what is wrong with me? We're having so many technology issues before we started that it's got me, and it's busy, everybody.

I know.

Oh, doctor. Amber Tishner, PhD, and a psychological safety expert. She's an accredited facilitator for the Academy of Brain-Based Leadership implementing the psychological safety assessment. Dr. Amber is also the author of Behind Frenemy Lines: Rising Above Female Rivalry to Be Unstoppable Together, addressing female rivalry in the workplace and promoting collaboration over competition. So we got through that, and technology is going to be our friend today, and this is going to go well. And this topic— first of all, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate it. I personally want to know what sparked your interest in organizational psychology and specifically psychological safety. And in my defense, that's a lot of tongue twisters.

Oh, it is. There's— that's a whole— it's a lot. Um, psychology of the workforce just fascinated me. I was always interested in psychology, but then I realized— I was a consultant for years and I saw things going on and I'm like, this is needed. People need this as much as they do their own personal therapy. And then the sky's the limit about what you could do within that field. You know, you could be a consultant, you could be in HR. I mean, it's very diverse. Um, And so that's what piqued my interest. And then the whole female rivalry thing, I just stumbled on that one.

Well, yeah, unfortunately it's needed and we do know that it happens. But I also want to know what this psychological safety assessment is. Can you explain to us what that is? Because that's pretty fascinating.

It is. So it is, it's with the Academy of Brain-Based Leadership that I became certified. My interest was really piqued after studying it for the female rivalry topic. I realized from a working environment, if people don't feel psychologically safe in the environment they're in, that is when a lot of these female rivalry behaviors stem from. And so I wanted to know more about what that was. And so this assessment, it really just— it's about your brain because everybody's brain is wired differently and traits or habits or tics or whatever you do You may not have control over it at all. It's really about your brain and what you think. And so this assessment, it breaks it down into 5 core parts and you just are answering questions, but it's not a personality assessment. It's truly how your brain is wired, which is utterly fascinating. And so it hit me the nail on the head when I got my first assessment back and I'm like, whoa, whoa, that's me. Totally.

Like, Wow.

Yeah.

Can you give us an example of what it can tell you?

Well, for me, having autonomy is just a big deal for me. I cannot stand to be micromanaged and I like collaboration. And that was one of my highest marks on my personal assessment, and which is one of the reasons why I ventured out and started doing my own thing because I love collaboration. I love working on teams, but when somebody starts to micromanage me or change my work or what, you know. And I get it, if something could be better, I'm always open for, you know, that feedback. But the micromanaging, and so it— I just cringe when that happens. And so that was one of my biggest— having the autonomy and freedom to speak and, you know, not be squashed down.

That is interesting. That makes a lot of sense.

So for teams, if the whole team does it, then you know that Rebecca, it's not you, it's your brain. You know, if there's quirks that somebody like Amber, Rebecca might not be playing nicely in the sandbox, you understand how your brain is wired. And so that opens the door for, you know, working better with people that are probably dissimilar than you.

I mean, it sounds like every team could benefit from taking the assessment.

I think so, but I'm partial.

That is awesome. So for example, not to make this selfish, but like for my husband's team, him and his team, could they work with you to all of them take this assessment?

Absolutely.

Okay. Yeah, I love it.

And it's just eye-opening. It helps you, you know, you look at how much time you're at work and with these other people of different— your walls are down differently when with your family. So this helps you understand how to work better with people.

I love it. It's so needed. I'm really curious what the signs are that you see that there is not psychological safety at work.

When people can't be vulnerable to be themselves, that's a huge one. If you feel fear, if you feel you can't raise your voice or raise your hand and say, hey, I have this idea, or if you're going against the status quo, if you feel like you can't wear your hair a certain way or your true personality can't come through, you should feel the freedom to be who you are and feel safe to be who you are. And when you aren't, studies have shown people tend to withdraw, participation goes down, there might be more sick days. You just aren't having people that are fully there and present. And when you're at work, you want your people to be present and you want people to be comfortable to be present and be who they are. And so it comes down to trust and open communication and open, transparent communication. So So yeah, a lot of little factors, but it's just being comfortable to be who you are at work or at home, you know, no matter where you would want that feeling.

Absolutely. So as the leader of a team, how do you then foster this in your organization? Like, what can they do?

It begins with open, transparent communication, top to bottom, bottom to top. And it's practicing what you preach. You just can't talk about things. You have to put the action in. And it's is not a one and done. It is continuous work that you are constantly engaging in because change is continuous. Things happen continually, and it's just, it's not something that's a one-year type of thing. It is a part of who, what your culture is. So it's, you know, you're constantly working with each other. If, you know, let's say you implement a survey and people are, you know, giving their unabashed feedback. It's then following up and saying, OK, this is what's working. This isn't what's working. This is how we can, you know, we got it. We have to take what our employees are saying and implement that change. We want them to know we're listening. And so, and then it's, you know, it's taking feedback both ways and being open to it. It's not just because I'm leadership, this is how things are done. It's we are all in this together and we are working as a team. And of course you have leadership, but everybody has a voice.

I think that, you know, the leader has such a big impact, but I want to take us to the team itself with the coworkers.

Yeah.

So I think when coworkers are feeling the rivalry, yeah, what can they do to address it? How do they work on that?

Well, in my— so female rivalry, and again, I haven't studied male rivalry just to put that caveat out there, but I know it does exist. This. The thing with female rivalry, when it is occurring, it's often very hard to fix in the moment because it's not talked about. These are very intangible behaviors. And if it's happening from somebody that is in a leadership position over you, often there's fear with that because they have say to your pay or your career path trajectory. So you don't want to rock the boat because that could really impact your job, and it already is impacting your job if you're feeling squished down and, um, afraid. The thing with female rivalry, because it's so intangible, it's very hard to share what's going on with other people. It's a form of a bullying behavior, but it's very passive-aggressive. Often it wouldn't be done in front of the whole group. Often it's done behind closed doors or in subtle ways that other people don't experience it. So with female rivalry, it can be very tricky to talk about it while it's occurring. But that's why on a bigger level, you just have to talk about bullying behaviors and things that you would do if you start to feel things happening. Does that make sense?

It totally makes sense. I, I'm just wondering that if somebody is feeling the rivalry.

Yeah.

And, you know, I don't want to put you on the spot if there isn't an answer to it, but like, they probably don't want to first go to the boss and be like, this is what's right. They want to try to handle it themselves. Well, I just want to be able to maybe empower them to do something different.

I've had a lot of women say going to the boss first off can be very tricky if you don't have facts to back it up, because it becomes a she said, she said, because it's so intangible. So what I always tell anybody, if you feel this is occurring, Document, document, document, because over time you are going to see patterns develop that then you have proof of what's going on. So that is the number one key thing. The other one I always tell women, if you feel something that is starting to happen, trust your gut. Your gut knows what's going on. If something feels off, it probably is. So you can Maybe go take a little walk or go get coffee with this person outside of the working environment and say, hey, I've just noticed, you know, we're on the same team, we have the same end goal. I want to make sure our communication is the best that it can, you know, whatever your style is. But also be prepared that that may backfire. I did that when I first— when I had this issue and I said, I noticed our communication could be better, what can I do? And she said, but Amber, our communication is great. And I'm like, no, it's not.

Not the answer I wanted.

But I realized hindsight is such a blessing. I realized after, I'm like, she just didn't like confrontation. And it's because I brought it up. It caught her off guard. Humor is a good— if somebody is doing something and if this is around, you know, you could do it one-on-one or even if there are other people around, say, you know, Now, Rebecca, that hurt my feelings. I know you did not mean to do that because that's not like you, you know, but it's like a subtle call out, you know, like, I see you and I'm not going to let you do this to me. If you do talk to leadership, maybe tell them how you feel, or if you are afraid of this other person, then ask HR, say, you know, when we have our one-on-ones, I want a representative from HR to be there. So because the But I know undoubtedly the nasty behavior won't come out if there's somebody else right there with you.

That's really good advice. And I love that you brought up HR because people forget that they have resources to use.

Yes, yes, yes. But don't record. Don't record. I have had one woman, she recorded, and in her state it was illegal to record a meeting even though it was very telling, the behavior. But she got fired and it wasn't, you know, it's heartbreaking, but you can't, you want to record, but that's why if you document or So over time, this documentation will help, you know, to show a story.

Such good advice.

Yeah.

So let's take us to your book.

Okay.

Tell us what inspired the book and tell us all about the book.

Well, the book, the book was my COVID baby. For that, I wrote my PhD dissertation on this topic. So for organizational psychology, I had to write a topic about an issue I saw in the working environment, and I knew I wanted it to be about women. I wasn't exactly sure what that would be. And then I was consulting at a well-known organization and I saw this female rivalry thing happening and I'm like, oh my Lord, like this is the elephant in the boardroom. And it is not just the two women that it's occurring with. The whole office could feel, our whole group could feel, we were all walking on eggshells because you didn't know what the one was going to do. And ultimately, good women were walking because of horrid behavior that was occurring. And then the bad behavior, in an essence, was being rewarded because nothing was being done to them. So that was my— I did my dissertation and I collected all this information. It was only about women at work, and I was dumbfounded. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like watching a train wreck go on, you know, like, and these poor women and how it impacted them. It, it, it wasn't just a one and done. Like, it truly— I, I couldn't diagnose them, but I truly think some of these women had PTSD from some of these behaviors. So fast forward. I've got my dissertation and I had moved, had a baby. I'm working as a consultant and this behavior happened to me and I didn't realize it was happening. I thought I knew everything because I had interviewed these women. And so I call it the best worst thing. And my mom, I was driving to work one day and she said, I hate to see how you doubt yourself all because of this woman. And I went, oh, I had one of those. I was a cartoon character, I would have had one of those red light, you know, the big light bulbs above my head. And I went, oh my God, this is— I'm in it! This is what's occurring, and I've studied it, and I didn't know it, and I'm in the middle of it. And I knew that even from talking to these women. And I went in and I quit. And that's when I went in and quit. And I thought, if I know this much about this topic and I didn't see it happening when I was in the middle of it and I had the Sunday blues and I dreaded going to work and it affected everything, what's it doing to women who don't have my knowledge?

Oh my goodness.

And so then, you know, fast forward a couple years, COVID hit, and I had to let it sit on my end, you know, kind of let my experience gel. But that's when I thought, I really want to write a book pulling from my research. But in that interim, I still been collecting stories. And it just wasn't from stories from women in a working environment, it was from women in families and friendships, in churches, in PTA, you know, all these different areas where women congregate together. And I thought, this just doesn't happen to women at work, this happens to women. And, and it's so sad because it doesn't have to be that way. So that is how my book came about, and COVID just kind of helped me push it Well, I mean, I'm so glad that you wrote it because unfortunately it's common.

And I'm wondering if you have thoughts on why it is so common.

There are. Yes, I do. First off, every situation is different. It's not a black and white behavior. It's all shades of gray. One of my favorite quotes is women who like themselves like other women. That is— so that's the crux of this behavior. If you don't like yourself, it's going to be very hard to like other women. A lot of these behaviors stem from you just don't like yourself. You don't feel good about the skin that you're in, or you're jealous, or the need for control or the need for power. Maybe it's how you were raised. Maybe you were raised in an environment where you were never good enough, or your mom was always comparing you, or whomever raised you was comparing you to other women. Or friends or whatever. Maybe you were raised in an environment where you're always being torn down. Maybe you just didn't have any positive female figures. Reasons why this occurs, but not liking yourself is one of the biggest.

That is so smart and explains all of it.

Yes. And it's because there are women— look at the women that you know that are comfortable in their own skin. They are moving and shaking and rocking it, and they have got friends, and they're bringing their friends, and they're lifting them up, and they want to see the best for everybody and they're not worried about themselves and they have your back when you're not there.

So can you tell us what it looks like, what the behavior looks like, what the rivalry looks like, some examples?

It's very, as I mentioned, it's very intangible. So often when it first starts, it will be like, hmm, well, why would Rebecca do that to me? No, she didn't do that. I imagined it. So that's when the self-doubt comes in, because it can be kind of shocking because you really don't— why would somebody do something to you? So over time, it will be these types of repetitive behaviors. It'll be a lot of gaslighting, and you'll doubt yourself. And, you know, I say your world turns gray when you really are in it. Because it's a slow squash down of your self-esteem. It's the gaslighting behaviors, especially at work. I mean, it can be in any situation, but at work it can be very hard to know who to trust or what the outlets are. It does not just stay at work if it— or any place that it's occurring. So I remember when I was going through it, I just— I'd bring it home with me, but I wasn't even— again, having studied this, I couldn't name what was going on. I just knew I was miserable and I was unhappy. And I remember my I snapped at my sister-in-law, and I— she's one of my best friends, and she's like, Amber, what? That is not like— are you okay? What's going on? And then later we talked about it, and she said, I knew that wasn't you. That wasn't how you act or talk or treat me. And it just— it affects everything you do. There can be fear associated with it. There is a lot of shame associated with it, even though people don't talk about it. And again, a lot of this is talked about after the fact because when you're in it, it's very stressful. A lot of times women have unexplained health issues, especially if it's been ongoing for a long time. Like, gosh, physical health ailments, psychological, social, social. Women tell me they don't have female friends, they don't trust women anymore, they will never work on an all-female team again, they will never work for another woman again. And I'm like, it's just tragic because we make up half the population. Like, you can't just alienate yourself, you know, from— but because of something so harmful that has happened to them, they just don't trust. And especially too, you look at women that this was a close friend and something happened. I, I understand why.

It makes me so sad to hear all these stories.

Oh, the stories are crazy. But the one thing I always tell women, it's so hard, especially when you're in it and you're on the end of receiving this ugly behavior. It's like, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them. And you cannot— the only thing you can control is yourself and how you respond to it. You cannot control their behavior, even though it feels quite the contrary when you are on the receiving end of it.

Well, and you're absolutely right. We're not all perfect. Okay. Well, I like to think that I am super nice to everyone.

Yes.

But I'm going to tell you, I know that I'm not perfect. So can you give us advice to pay attention so that we don't engage in any of these behaviors?

100%. And that is a question I get asked a lot. And it's a good one because no one likes to think they're a mean girl or a bully. And I tell my daughter, you are not going to be everybody's BFF. But you can always be kind. You can always be kind to everybody. So check yourself. Like one of the things, like, so I call that the inner she bully, like that voice in your head. That's the mean girl. Like check that because that goes back to the women who like themselves. Is that voice loud and proud? If so, rein her in because that is going to impact how you, not only with yourself, but how you're interacting with other people. Am I exuding behaviors, whether unbeknownst to me or not, that might be off-putting to somebody else? Am I interacting with people that I may not know their background? So an example is one woman told me— I've had a few women kind of tell this similar story— like somebody might be very shy, but she might come across as being prickly, or, you know, but that's just— she's shy. So look at that. Is it a cultural difference? Some cultures are very— when they get animated and start talking, they're angry or loud. If they're speaking another language, that's how it appears to us, but they're not. That's just their mannerisms. Like, think about how somebody is culturally raised different than you. So it's being aware of cultural boundaries and what that looks like. And you know what, if you have been mean, own it and apologize. You know, like if you— I'm sorry, Rebecca, if I came across in that way, I did not mean to. I was in my own head that day. I was busy. It was nothing to do with you. But yes, everybody has had— I don't know anybody that hasn't, to put it that way. That's just life. No one is perfect, as you said.

Right. And I don't want to ever contribute to these behaviors, you know? So I'm listening to you and I'm doing a self-check, like, don't do any of this stuff.

Well, and, you know, sometimes if you aren't sure, one of my other favorite little sayings is practice the pause before you respond or engage. Or do just— even if it's taking a deep breath and like, okay, is that how she means to come across? Or how maybe she thinks I'm coming across that way. And sometimes just taking a deep breath helps. And you know what, if it's a text, if it's an email, if somebody left you a voicemail, you don't have to respond right away. You can step back. I sometimes— I'm like, oh, I'll get heated quickly and think, okay, I can type this up, but I'm not going to send it. Because you know what? Give it 5 hours. Let me sit on it for 24 hours. I will have a much different mindset, you know. So practicing the pause can really help to not engage. But on the vice— the other end, if somebody is treating you negatively it helps you not to engage back with them and stoop to their level too.

I definitely got upset with someone the other day and my husband said, think about the intention. And that was so helpful because like it wasn't a mean girl behavior. And I was like, okay, so this is good. I got to pause. I got to pause and think.

Practice the pause. Yes. It's, and it's, you know what? It's not always easy to do.

No, not at all. But what can men do to help in this situation?

So some of my best groups I've talked to have been men, and it's been— and I was shocked after, you know, it took a few. I'm like, oh wow, they're just really in because I think they are maybe a little dumbfounded that that occurs unless, you know, like they've been raised. I have had several men say, I was raised in a family of women, so I see this, I understand it.

Yes.

You know, if you have a male leader that is leading an all-female team and he's never been exposed, it's like, whoa, what is going on? The deer in the headlights. I think it's just being aware that these behaviors can exist and they are disruptive. So when I did my research, there were no theories of female rivalry. I had to go back to theories of aggression. And so Children are born with the same levels of aggression, and so little girls develop emotional intelligence earlier than little boys do, and that's when these kind of passive-aggressive and, you know, responding with words versus the physical responses begin to occur. Women will hold grudges, or women— it might be something that you and I are dealing with, but then it's suddenly, well, you drive an awful car and your son isn't doing good in math. Like, he'll bring all things in where men— it typically— again, I'm totally just lumping categories— when men— let's say you have Bob and Greg in a boardroom and they're all cranky and yelling at each other. An hour later, they could be on the golf course having a beer, having a great old time, and it's left behind. So it's just different ways of how you dive into, you know, these types of behaviors. So for men, sometimes they just— their brains don't think that way. And so it's the realization that this can happen, being a supportive ally, letting women know that you have their backs, but then also talking about these behaviors and having things out in the open so everybody is aware that, okay, if this is happening, this is how we deal with this. Maybe implement bystander training if, you know, for behaviors, or have it part of bullying training, you know, with your yearly or bi-yearly trainings through HR. But just the awareness that it can happen. And then also the no strikes, like we're not going to tolerate mean behaviors in this atmosphere, and you might have one strike, but if it continues, you're out of here.

Yeah, I love all of that. And I think to motivate people, I would love to hear what you see the benefits in the workplace of having psychological safety.

Well, think about your best group of girlfriends. You know, like, and you know that, like, I have a great group of girlfriends that I'm, I'm originally from the West Coast. I now live on the East Coast. We have a girls trip coming up in April. We get together and it's like no time has gone by. I've known them since I was 18. We've seen the good, bad, the ugly, the crazy. When you think of that feeling when you are with a group of people that know you, have your back no matter time or distance or where you are. It's kind of replicating that feeling into the working environment, if that makes sense. Knowing that it's not just a job you're going to— look at how much we work in our lives— it's going to a place where, yes, you are working, you're all working for the common goal, but you have each other's backs. You know that they trust you, you trust them. If you are out or if you have a family emergency, you know they are picking up for you, you know, and helping you along and vice versa.

Yeah, I mean, we spend so much time at work, so you want to feel safe.

You want to feel safe. And then when you have that feeling and you feel safe, you want to do more for others. You just— and so that means the productivity levels go up. Yeah, and you will have less turnover and you'll have people that, you know, that's what you when people are leaving, you're losing time, talent, and money. Good women are walking out the door. But when you feel safe in an environment, you want to stay because you know that the environment you're in, whether it's the company or organization as a whole or your team, they care about you more than just a number. You are a valuable person on their team who knows you, knows you have kids, knows the ins and outs, and it's personal. And so when it becomes personal, people give more in return.

Absolutely. And you touched on emotional resilience. And before I let you go, I think that emotional resilience for people transfers to having a really good work environment without the rivalry, with, you know, high production. So how can someone listening improve their emotional resilience?

Well, I think that's something that we are always working on. Because every day is different and life hits you curveballs. So it's not something that's always at a perfect high. I just think it's every day you, you can reset your path. So I looked at COVID and I remember thinking, okay, every day I go to bed at night, I wake up the next morning and it's a new start. Like it is a new day to have a new mindset. So I think for me, mindset is everything. It's the mindset. Of I have— I can make the best of this situation. And so it's maybe journaling, it's practicing, you know, getting up in the morning a few minutes before everybody and taking time to have, you know, breathing or meditation or whatever that works for you. But that helps to regulate my emotions because I know most of your— a lot of your listeners have children. Like, if my kids sense that I'm in a bad cranky mood and we're getting in the car and going to school, that sets the tone for that whole morning. And so it's like, and it's the same thing when you go to work. So it's, you know, I try to look for the positive, and not everything is always going to be positive, but I try to look to like, okay, this is a really sucky time, but how can this make me stronger? And how is this going to make me better?

That's good advice. Well, this is such a good topic. I knew it would be. And I just, I want to ask ask you, like, this might be a very hard question, but what are you hoping people take away from this conversation?

I think the first and foremost is if you are a recipient of an ugly rivalrous behavior, no, it's not you. I mean, again, you can do your reality check and see if I played a little part, but chances are you are at the wrong place at the wrong time and you cannot control somebody else's behavior. I have 3 things, actually. The second one, I want women to know they are not alone. This behavior is often not talked about. And I remember my first talk I ever gave, a woman came up to me afterward and said, thank you, I thought I was the only one. And no, you are not the only one. It's just not talked about. And I want it to be talked about more. And 3 is You know what, there are women out there that have your back and support you. So if you feel that you don't have that, sure, it's not always easy, but it's— I liken it to dating. How did you find your significant other? You didn't just suddenly end up with that person. It takes work. You go through a lot of frogs, whatever it may be. But get your date on. Go find networking groups, find social groups, find things. Sure, The first one may not be a fit. The third one may not be a fit. But if you are diligent about being persistent, you give it time and you are going to find like-minded people that you want to hang out with and vice versa. And you will find women that you have this tribe or circle or whatever you call it.

Such good advice. You are full of such good advice. And I, and I appreciate— I told her that I was going to take 30 to 45 minutes and I Just keep talking to her. So thank you enough. I just love this conversation and I love that we're bringing this conversation to life because you said it, it's not talked about.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you for bringing it to your audience. And yes, please know you're not alone. It's out there. We need to bring it out in the open and make it go away.

Thank you for your expertise. This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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