Episode 437: Living with a Narcissistic Partner

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No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza. Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Wine Inklusive podcast, and I am very excited today to connect with the fabulous Dr. Dr. Cynthia Edwards, Edwards-Hover. Thank you so much, Dr. Cynthia, for being here with us today.

Thank you for having me. Nice intro.

As I stumble. I am so excited to talk to her today. This is such— I was just telling her what a needed topic this is. And let me tell you a little bit about this fabulous lady before we start. Dr. Cynthia Edwards-Hover is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 25 years of experience dedicated to helping high-achieving women navigate midlife challenges, toxic relationships, and burnout. She specializes in guiding women out of narcissistic marriages, helping them set boundaries, heal, and regain confidence through a mix of therapy and coaching. She empowers clients to break free from emotional exhaustion and rediscover their strength. Dr. Cynthia's mission is to help women stop just surviving and start thriving. I read that and I said, let's do this. I can't believe how fantastic the timing is of this podcast. As I just told her, I had a wonderful lady approach me to do this and I already had this scheduled. So how exciting. And I really want to ask you, what inspired you to specialize in guiding women out of narcissistic marriages? How did you land there?

I landed there for a couple reasons. Um, most, most significantly, and I try to talk about this while still protecting my children, but, um, finding myself at the age of 51, after my mom had passed away during COVID and my stepdad was dying and my business was, you know, COVID, all of that. And I was in a marriage and I had been with someone for 31 years and we have 2 children and things were just falling apart. And, you know, it was hard to know. What was going on. There was some, um, substance abuse stuff going on as well. And after I made the very, very difficult decision to ask him to leave to protect my kids, I just started— as you know, as someone who is a psychologist, I haven't already been doing my own therapy weekly for years. And it was interesting because I found as I was going into therapy originally for talking about losing my mom suddenly I never talked about my mom. I was spending all of my sessions talking about my marriage. And, um, slowly over time just started to realize like, this is so painful and it's never gonna change. And once I made that difficult decision, I decided through my own healing, which was incredibly brutal and trying to get my hands on every single piece of information I could, I started putting the pieces together and I thought, oh my goodness, like, I feel like I am in this toxic relationship. I am so confused. There, you know, and it was putting the pieces and I thought, I cannot be the only one. And much like I've done with other things in my life, I specialized in eating disorders for years and years because I anorexia in high school. I ended up having 3 heart procedures done.

Oh my God.

I lost it at 21, and I decided to become a psychologist because I got through that. And so when I was out, you know, feeling all my feelings, going through all the pain, I just made a very conscious decision to say, no, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And I'm kind of spiritual, so I kind of felt like, okay, maybe this needed to happen, and I'm going to make something out of this tragic mess to help other women.

Oh my goodness. I mean, that's an amazing story. I don't think it gets any better than using your own story to help others. And I am sure that you're helping so many people. I had no idea what you had been through, and I'm super impressed with you. Thank you. That's a lot. That is a lot. It's been a lot.

It still is a lot because I think one of the things I've realized, and even my work now working with these women directly, is even when you make the decision to go, a lot of times it doesn't get better at first. It gets worse.

Oh.

And when someone does not any longer have that control over you, there's gonna be other things that are gonna happen to make your life miserable, even if they can't directly be in your space.

Oh, that's terrible. Well, and I think what you and I had briefly touched on is it's not easy to recognize. When it's so close to you. Can you kind of give a brief overview of what narcissism looks like in a marriage?

It's so hard to put it in a category because when you look at it, you know, and first, when I say narcissism, I mean the, you know, the personality style, not actually diagnosing someone with narcissistic personality disorder. And Dr. Ramani has done a great job of educating people on what narcissism is. I always encourage people to check out her work. It's fabulous. And one of the things is narcissism as a personality style. We, we're usually familiar with that grandiose type of narcissism where it's like, hey, they walk into a room and it's, look at me and I'm great and all those things. But we also know there's other types too. So there is the vulnerable type, there is the communal type, there is the malignant type. So we have all these other subtypes and the vulnerable ones And sometimes I call it the eclectic narcissist because sometimes people have little pieces of each. So maybe out in the community, they're the father of the year and everyone thinks, oh my God, they're a great coach, they're a great guy, they help out with everything. But behind closed doors, the energy in the home is so toxic. You feel like you're walking on eggshells all the time. There's this anger that can exude from the person and you would literally start to feel like you're going crazy because when you're out in public, everyone thinks, you know, this person is great. And that's usually where women struggle the most, is because they believe— and oftentimes will happen— if I come forward and say this, no one's going to believe me. And what I've experienced and what I've seen my clients experience is people don't, you know, people lose friendships. People come up and say, I don't believe you, I think you're, you know, over-exaggerating, there's no way this person could be that, and, you know, why are you saying these horrible, awful things? Why are you tearing your family apart? So you already feel questioning, you're depleted, but then you're also getting it from other people. And sometimes you lose in-laws, family, you know, like you're kind of rebuilding from the ground up because what they put on outside isn't necessarily what you're seeing inside the home.

Oh, that, that makes a lot of sense. And you, and you briefly touched on the exhaustion and the burnout that women feel in these marriages. Can you, can you talk about how feels and why that is.

You know, and exhaustion is like the best word I usually come up with, but it just feels mentally exhausting because, you know, you are often being gaslit. You're being lied to. You're being told things that you're certain are true. So mentally you're kind of unraveling a little bit and thinking, you know, and it could be silly things. It could be like, well, I'm sure I left the dog collar there, but it's not there, and then you come back and it is, you know, like really simple things to bigger things, like, you never told me that was going on with the kids, or I never said that, when you're clear that you did. So mentally you're just always in your head wondering what's true, what's not true. And then because of that constant stress that women are under, physically, the things that start to develop, you know, I had during this whole process was diagnosed with Lyme disease and also breast cancer. And breast cancer doesn't even run in my family. So that, you know, I was having these illnesses in my 40s. I was like, why is it now? I look back and I know a lot of it was, you know, not completely, but a lot of it was due to stress. And the women I work with have chronic illnesses. They You know, they're just physically and mentally always being beaten down. And then they're also not taken care of by the person who's supposed to take care of you, your partner, because they actually get annoyed with you when you're sick. That's like a— oh gosh. Like, you know, I just— I have a woman and, you know, I don't want to give away information, but it's like, aren't you recovered yet from that surgery? Like, why? Why is this still— you know, it's like an annoyance. So you're not getting any support. You're trying to still parent your kids, and you're also watching your kids be affected by this dynamic in the home, which I think for moms is so mentally hurtful, you know, and is usually the ultimate thing that I see women leave is because they start to see either my children are starting to treat me the same way as that person, or I don't want my kids to think this is what a relationship is. And also, for my case, I really got to a point where I knew if I didn't leave, I'd probably end up dead. Like, it was, it was that level of burnout where it was like, I can't keep up doing this anymore. My kids aren't ever going to get to see their mom, you know? So, yeah.

Well, and you said so much, and one of the things that hits me is what we're willing to do for our kids. It would be nice to see women be willing to do it for themselves first. But a lot of times it takes us wanting to do something for our kids.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yes, 100%.

Well, and I know that you talk about— you highlight some hidden red flags that tell us that we're silently being— we're silent— we're silently being exhausted, as I think how you describe it. Can you talk about those red flags?

Yeah, so, um, I just created— and you can go to my website and get it, it's a free guide— because I really wanted women to start being able to recognize what those red flags are. Because a lot of times, you know, it's not, it's not really like people come and say for therapy or coaching. A lot of times they'll be looking for things like anxiety, depression, stress. And I wanted women to start to realize, like, maybe a lot of these things I'm feeling are related to my relationship, which a completely scary thing for women to look at. It's like they want to look at— it's got to be my job, it's got to be that, you know, it's like that's the last thing. So I tried to make this digestible because once you, once you see these red flags, you can't go back and unsee them. So that's, that's what I always tell people. Like, once you see it, it's hard to unsee it. So one of the ones is feeling like you're walking on eggshells, you're being lied to. You start to recognize, wait a minute, that is a lie. You start documenting conversations. So a lot of times women will say, oh yeah, I've been writing things down for years, or I started to audio record. So I didn't because I knew I was saying things that weren't true. When they twist information and you're saying, no, that's not what I said. You also start to feel like a single mom. Inside your relationship. So you start thinking things like, my God, I'm doing everything anyway. Wouldn't it be easier with this person not being around?

Yeah.

And your kids start picking up on the tension in the home. You become an emotional dumping ground. So no matter how, how many times you try to change or have a conversation, somehow it's always your fault. You know, it always comes back to you. They never take responsibility for anything that's happened. Um, you may see your kids start to mirror some of these behaviors, which can often be really painful. So the way your partner's talking to you, might see your kids start to talk to you that same way. Um, if you're having tons of health issues, chronic stress, you're getting sick all the time, you know, illnesses that appear out of nowhere and you're like, how is this happening? And you start to hide the truth from your family and friends. I think that's when, you know, you stop sharing information with them, especially a close friend, because you know somewhere deep inside they're probably going to say, this isn't right, you need to get out. And that can feel so incredibly scary, or you're dismissed by those people and you just stop sharing. You just think it's better to just not even have this conversation.

Oh, that's a lot. That's a lot. And I think that a lot of women are probably thinking, I'm just stressed, I'm just stressed. And there's the general stress and there's the relationship stress. And I think that it's hard for them to distinguish what is actually stressing me out. I mean, is there a way to help them with that?

Yeah. So what I often tell women is there's little signs like you feel like you're doing really great at work and you're scared to come home. You don't want to go home at the end of the day, right? Or you're finding that when you are home, you feel out of place in your home. You aren't looking forward to, you know, a vacation, or you don't really— or like you might hear other people saying, hey, let's— I'm going out on a date night. And you're like, oh gosh, I don't want to go on a date. Or you don't look forward to any extra time with the person, you know. So it really— when you start looking at breaking down the stress, trying to figure out where is it my job, you know, and sometimes it can be both. Yeah, really looking at, you know, because your home should be the place where you want to come home to and regroup and, and feel yourself and you can let it all down. That is not usually the case when people are dealing with these types of relationships.

That makes so much sense. And I remember a woman telling me that she used to dread when her husband pulled up to the house or they come home.

Yes. If you— yes.

Yes.

And I was like, oh my God, that's terrible.

Yes. Yes. I should have mentioned that because that is also very common, you know, where it's like, oh my God, it's going to be this time where they're in every— and it's not just you. It could be your kids too. Kind of like everyone starts to get on edge knowing that that's going to happen. And you start to notice the environment in your home changes when that person is coming home or they walk in the door, you know. So looking at how are your kid— because we don't want to put it on our kids, but our kids, these are— they're like little, you know, they pick up on this energy more so than anyone. And so noticing what happens and how the dynamic shifts.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. I know that boundaries are really important with a narcissistic partner. So how can they set back? What would the boundaries look like? How do you even do that?

Yes, I often say, you know, the boundaries usually don't exist for the narcissist. It's, you know, they're there to break. But it's important, you know, if you feel safe. So I always tell women, you know, there can be a very real safety issue, and sometimes it's not safe to set a boundary. So you have to really know, is it safe? Because we always want to put safety first, but you really want to not be wordy and specifically keep saying what you're asking for. Like, I don't like when you use that tone with me. Now, what usually happens is they're going to try and put all these other things in there, so you kind of lose track of what were we even just fighting about. And I always say, don't, you know, don't defend, you know, don't go deep. You know, make sure that you don't overtalk, overexplain. So trying to just stick to your point. A boundary can be for yourself of saying, I need to walk away right now and calm down to get yourself back together. But A lot of times narcissists don't like that. They will follow you to the other room. You could say, hey, when I'm getting ready in the morning, please do not come in and do that to me before I have to go to work. And you bet they're gonna come up and do that to you before you're getting ready to go to work. Mm-hmm. And so setting a boundary with them can feel so difficult. And once you are out, if you decide you can get out and you do leave, I highly recommend using a parenting app to do all the communication. Because that is something that can be admissible in court, and you have it as a record, and you just say what you need, and they have to say it back. They might try and get you to engage in that, but you just keep sticking to the facts and really trying to stick to facts without the emotion, which is so hard because we're human beings.

Oh my goodness, my brain is spinning with questions as you're talking. So I think that there's two things. There's the, there's the women. Well, and I shouldn't say women. I mean, I'm assuming it goes both ways, right? There's the people who are in, still in the relationship, and there's the people who are dealing with being out of the relationship. So if you're still in the relationship, is it possible to make things better? I don't know.

No, no. So, um, and I do have quite a few women I work with who have to stay because they don't have the financial means to leave, they don't have the support, um, or they don't want to leave their, you know, because it always usually comes down to, I don't want my, my husband alone with my kids, you know. So the shared custody, these people are great in court, and if they have money, forget about it, they will hire the best legal people, and they enjoy court. They enjoy fighting. It's a way for them to have power and control. And so if it's difficult, bring it on. You know, you may be like, no, I don't want to go through any of that. They do. So if you're there, you know, there's something that we talk about called radical acceptance, and you, you have to believe deep in your soul that this is a pattern. So I always say, if it happens once, it's a mistake. If it happens twice, it's a coincidence. When it happens 3 times, it's a pattern. And if you see a pattern in your relationship, you have to go inward and say, I know this is never going to change. Because once you start to accept that, it's not pretty and it's very, very sad, but it's— you can then realize, I'm not going to waste any more of my precious energy trying to change this person. And This is, I think, a really important topic to bring up is be very careful if they want to go to couples therapy because a lot of couples therapists are not understanding narcissism. These people go to couples and they are so smooth and so good. And I often tell therapists, when I had therapists working under me, I would say if one person is there crying and emotionally dysregulated and the other one's like, like, but I just love her and I want to make it work. There's something going on that's deeper, right? And I will honestly tell you, in my own relationship, met with 3 different couples therapists over the years. No one believed me. He always got the shiny, you know, thing. He actually started working with one of them one-on-one after I refused to go back. So it's really— and it can make you feel even more crazy, like, oh my, even the therapist doesn't believe me. So You have to believe yourself. This is real. Go to therapy. Work with someone who gets it. You know, I believe— ask the therapist, do you understand this? Like, I need someone that is going to believe me. I can't be gaslit, you know, because medical professionals can gaslight too. So we have to be very, very careful who we choose to work with. And you want to feel supported.

I mean, that is So many good points that so many women are going to benefit from because as I told you before we started, I just can't believe the smoothness, the charmingness. It's very easy for people not to see it because of the different way that they present.

Yes, yes, yes. And, and they do. They tend to present well. They have lots of friends and they also tend to be the type of person who You know, every— they can go and do things for everyone else. But at home, you might be like, listen, my whole house is falling apart here. When are you going to fix that? But they're not getting any of that outward, oh, look at him. When they're doing things at home, they're going and fixing everyone else's stuff. And because of that, other people like that, right? Like people like when people help them. So no one's going to be like, oh, don't, don't bother. So it's, it's kind of this perpetual thing where it is a really hard thing that people can See?

Well, and then some women have gotten out of these relationships and their partner is still— it's still toxic. They're still abusing them. It's still hard. So how can they set the boundaries that way when they're not together anymore?

Yes. And this is one that is so hard because on one hand, and there's things that can happen that are really deep. Trauma bonding or codependent. I mean, I'm not a big fan of codependency, but I know it's real. It's looking, you know, like, especially if you've been with this person for a long time, like, there's that part of you that's like, oh, I don't really want to let this person go, but I know I am. Very easy to get sucked back into dialogue and conversation and somehow a belief if I just say it the right way, they're gonna get it. You know, they don't. And it's so hard. So I often say, again, use that parenting app. Keep your— and, and honestly, what I see work best, and it's something I've had to do for myself, which definitely is not in the best interest of my kids, but I have no choice because mentally I know I cannot be around him. So there is no co-parenting. I, I refer to it as parallel parenting. So it is— we do not, you know, he like— I, there's very firm boundaries in place. You like, I sit here at a sporting event, you can go over there, we communicate through an app, you are not to come to the door, you know, like there's very clear things. And if you don't feel safe, you really need to do that. Or if you're not mentally strong enough, or you have a trauma response when you're around them, because a lot of these women have post-traumatic stress after leaving. It's, it's like as soon as you're in contact, you can be flooded with all those feelings. So The less contact, the more you can keep it away, the better. And, and that's just to protect you while you're going through your own healing, because you can't let— you can't give them anything because they will jump on it.

Well, and you mentioned court, and I think that a lot of these people are in court fighting against each other, and as you said, they enjoy the process, which really sad and crazy. So how can they cope with the whole court process?

Oh, the court. The court, it is, you know, and it's interesting because I would never, you know, now I'm on the other side of things. I did child custody evals early in my career, stopped because of the contentious nature, and no one be— it was awful. And being in court is awful, and it is not set up to pick this up, you know. And we— I know there's women out there working with the court systems, which is fantastic, trying to get them to understand this. Um, but I think the best thing is to, if you have the financial means, to make sure that you hire a good attorney that understands narcissism, that's really— if you can afford it, to go to a women's resource center where at least the women and the attorneys there will understand more about the dynamics of this. Um, but I have seen so many women just lose custody of their kids when their partner is the one that is the narcissist, and it is heartbreaking. And then there is parental alienation where they turn that child against their parent, and you might not get that relationship back, or it might not happen until they're an adult and they might be able to see it more clearly.

Which would make sense why women stay in these relationships so that none of that, that part happens.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And you know, I, I, I, and I don't fault them for that. You know, it's, it's, I always say these relationships are a lose-lose. So no matter what decision you make, whether you stay or you go, there's still heartbreak, there's still loss, and it's never, it's never gonna be your nice simple divorce where two people come together and say, Hey, we're not working. Let's do what's best for the kids and figure out a schedule and all. No, no, no, no. You will be keeping track of things, dates, times, everything. And you have to, you have to become like a reporter and keep track of everything, watching how your kids respond when they come back home. You know, all of it.

Oh my goodness. It's such a load. It's such a load. And you mentioned grief, and I know that there's a lot of unaddressed grief when you're getting over these relationships, and it prevents you from moving forward. So how can they address their grief so that they can move forward better?

The grief is, you know, it's not something that just goes away, and it will hit you. And this is complex grief, and I often refer to it as disenfranchised grief. Because you are falling apart and no one's bringing you a casserole. No one's giving you condolences on Facebook, right? Because you're usually not talking about it. You're scared to talk about it. So it can be going through it alone. And there's a lot of things out there that are like focused on, you know, quick fixes and all this. And one thing I know for sure is that you have to go through the grief to get to the other side. You have to be compassionate with yourself. You got to give yourself the space to grieve. Um, when women are thinking about leaving, I always try to work with them on being able to save extra money if they can, to give themselves a little leeway to not have to work as much when they're going through their grief. Because, you know, you're going through grief while you're managing your children's grief and trying to explain all of it to them, which then can again trigger your grief. And grief isn't linear. So, you know, you could be thinking, okay, I'm strong today and I'm doing great. And then the next day you see something, you hear something, and you're in tears all over again. And it's okay. Like, you know, it's just remembering that there is, on the other side, going to be relief, but it's not going to happen quickly and it takes time. And, and I wish someone had told me more that, you know. So I really want women to be patient and kind with themselves because they're, you know, especially high-achieving women. It's like, we're like, come on, give me this and let me fix it. And this is not that. It's like, oh God, am I gonna just lay in bed today? And, you know, am I gonna sleep again for 12 hours? Yeah, you might. You might. And you might need to go in the bathroom and cry for a half hour before you get your kids' dinner, and that's okay.

It sounds like compassion is one of the best words we can have for ourselves in this situation.

Yes.

Yes.

And our kids, you know, I think, you know, I get, I get flack for this sometimes, but I think don't try to overprotect your kids either, because that's where a narcissist can get in and, and do their thing. So I think kids seeing and being honest with them and not gaslighting them like they've already probably experienced in the home of saying, Mommy's very sad. And, and, you know, Mommy and Daddy were together for a really long time and I'm trying to get better and stronger, but it's going to take a long time. And then you're giving them that permission to say, yeah, this is going to suck for a while. So you're kind of modeling for them healthy grief. That it is awful, that mom is sad. She's not walking around like, "Yeah, I'm free," you know, whatever picture might be trying to get painted of you. Your kids can see that reality, and that's such an important thing to give them. And it will benefit your relationship with your children as you're going through that. Too many women try to say, "Oh no, your dad's a good guy. It's okay. We're going to figure it out," you know. And you don't have to say daddy's a horrible, awful person, but you definitely want to say, Yeah, things are really difficult right now.

And yeah, and I would imagine it would be hard for some of these kids to be with the narcissist seeing how their mother or other parent is feeling.

Yes. And one of the things I, you know, when, when someone will say, well, I'm not doing anything, I'm not being abusive, I'm not emotionally abusive, I think it's very important to remember that if you are treating your children's mother in unkind way, that is emotionally abusive. So once that— you don't do that to a kid, your children's mother. So just that alone is enough. And, and kids can see it, you know, and, and they will struggle. And I think getting your kids in therapy is so important too. I mean, you know, all of us have been in therapy. We still are. And we're, you know, we talk about it. And, you know, my kids probably gets sick of hearing me say, like, are you okay?

Like, do you want to tell mom?

You know, like, you can tell me anything, you know, but it's so important. And, you know, to add some light to it now that it's, you know, and it's interesting how time plays a role. It hasn't even been that, you know, a year and a half now. If some days it feels longer, some days it feels like it was yesterday. But one thing is that keeps me going is I see this new bond developing with my children. And if I think of what would have happened if I stayed, that wouldn't be what I would be seeing right now. And especially at a certain age, you know, like my boys are 11 and 13 and this all started, you know, when they were like 9 and 11 and, you know, in, in just crucial ages for development and becoming a teenager in those crazy years. Like it's important to look at the timing of all this too. And I tell women that like sometimes when they're really young, it's not the best time because there's too much manipulation that can go on when you're not there, versus a child a little older, then you can start having different types of conversations.

Absolutely. I— the, the older the better.

Yeah, it is. It actually is. And a lot of women, you know, stick it out until that is the case.

I know. Oh gosh, unfortunately, I know. And I think that the heartbreaker would be if you see your kids acting like the narcissist or getting in a relationship with someone who's treating them the way that your spouse treated you. So how do we break the generational patterns?

Oh yes. And I I think it's so good that we're actually talking about this conversation now because, you know, when people look at like, well, how did I find myself in this? I always say, you know, we seek out what's comfortable, and our childhoods may not have been healthy, but it's comfortable, so it's familiar. So you might have been attracted to someone that kind of did the same thing in your own childhood. And I tell, you know, the moms I work with The fact that you make the decision to leave is already breaking that pattern. You're teaching your kids being treated this way is not okay. And they, as your kids, are going to be way less likely to pick a partner where they think that's okay. I worry sometimes about the women who can't leave. Yeah, they— the child thinks, oh, well, that's how a relationship works. So even if there's little moments where you can start teaching your kid, like, like, you know, not covering for the person. So not saying like, oh, Daddy had a bad day and, you know, he, you know, was being mean. It's like, you know, when Daddy gets like that, that's not okay. You know, so you're— you can talk to your kid and let them know, I see it, I don't think it's okay. And as they get older, maybe you can explain why, you know, you are staying, but you want to keep pointing it out. And I think a great thing to do is if you see someone else that's in your community and you say, oh gosh, that person over there is very manipulative and this is why. Kids are smart. They'll start putting that together in their own lives. So if you have other people in your life that your kid comes in contact with, point out, you know, that, or if a child they're friends with is doing something that's manipulative, you can say to them later, you know, I noticed when that kid did that too, that was really manipulative. And they might be like, what's that? And then you have the opportunity to explain what that means. So I think it's always teaching our kids when it's not healthy because that's when they're gonna know this isn't okay.

Well, and the flip side of that is what you said not to do, where, where they might think that they're being protective and doing a good job when it really could end up harming them.

Yes. Yes. And if you see those behaviors in your own kid, yeah, it's very important to say, we don't do that. That's not nice. Or we don't lie. I, you know, like, and that's a big thing that my kids hear me, you know, do not lie to me. That is not okay. I do not like it. You can tell me anything that's really hard. Don't lie. You know, so it's very concrete. Not allowed, you know. And because when you are in a relationship where you've been lied to or gaslit, you want your kids to know that behavior is unacceptable. And it's, it's just as bad as, you know, you hitting someone. So we start to realize those mental things are just as bad as any other child behavior.

Oh, well, and on top of everything else, women are dealing with perimenopause, menopause, relationship stress. I mean, how can they cope with all these things happening at the same time? And on top of that, there might be work stress, too.

Yes. Yes. You know, and in my case, you know, oh my God, it's like, it's so crazy. But like my my ex was managing my psychology practice and I lost money and he was in my business. And this isn't uncommon either because they'll come up with these great ideas of like, hey, why don't you let me help you? You know, and you think, oh my God. So yeah, there's so many stresses and then you're working and usually women are the ones, you know, like they're doing their careers, they're doing all this stuff at home, they're parenting their kids. I joke You know, my girlfriend who's in her 50s as well, like, texted me the other day and she said, I think I'm having menopause. And I laughed and I said, I wouldn't even know if I'm going through menopause because I am so crazed all the time with my life that I don't even know what's menopause or what isn't. So, you know, I think you really do need to take a step back and go, okay, I am at that age. I, I stopped getting my period this long ago. This could be a hot flash. This could be why I'm not sleeping. I might be a little bit more emotional. And just giving yourself the grace of, you know, and especially women who are hardworking, they just push through and they think, oh, you know, I'm not going to deal with it. It's not even only recently until we started talking about menopause. So I think you have to even give yourself more compassion to say, Yeah, like maybe I just can't make this decision today because, you know, my— I have brain fog and I'm not functioning. And, and not beat yourself up. You know, I always say try to talk to yourself like you would talk to your best friend or your kid and not, you know, if you just wasted the whole day doing something where you're like, I don't even know what I did today, just be nice to yourself. Like, okay, Okay.

Yes, I know. I, I started noticing how nice I was to everybody but myself, and I was like, hey, hey, why don't you deserve that?

Yes, yes. And I think that's like, so, you know, women, we do this all the time. We're so wired to be compassionate to other people but not to ourselves.

I know. We're rewiring. We're all rewiring. We all deserve it. We, we, you know, I love that you say that you take women from surviving to thriving. I love that line. I think it's so important because I know so many women are just trying to get through the day, and that makes me so sad when they tell me that. So what does it look like when they're thriving?

Hmm. Yeah, that's been, you know, I think it's the little things. I think the— wow, I laughed today, or I didn't feel stressed today, or you know what, I'm leaving my dishes in the sink and going for a walk. It's like being in touch with your intuition. It's feeling at peace, you know. So it's not— it's being authentic. I think it's really being authentic with yourself, getting to know yourself, because because women— and when I say thriving, I think part of thriving is sometimes these women don't even know who they are. You know, you might not even know after long enough, like, what temperature do I like my house? Do I like that paint color that's on the wall? What do I like to do in my free time? Because you might have been just so gaslit or manipulated about everything. So to me, thriving is honoring who you truly are, finding that out for the first time, and giving yourself some space to start doing those things without feeling guilty and knowing that now you have the chance to recreate your own life and that person can't take that from you, that you are in charge of your life. And as much as you've been beaten down, you know, knowing that at some point you have the power somewhere inside to live your best life. And even if you're starting, I have women who start over. They amaze me. I have women in their 70s, like, finally leaving these relationships, and I'm like, good for you. It's not too late. And then after a year, I do see them start to thrive. I mean, I have this one woman who's in her 70s now who wants to start her own podcast. I'm like, do it.

I love that.

Is finding who— what makes you happy, you know, outside of your kids. And please don't rush into another relationship. That's not thriving. It's, it's being with yourself. You know, you can do that eventually, but you want time to heal. So, and it's taking care of your physical health, your mental health, your spiritual health, all of those things that maybe have been taken from you for a very long time.

So to the woman listening who is either still in the relationship or still dealing with the person out of the relationship, can you leave her with some last words of advice? Hope.

That would be, you know, hope, hope, and find a community to connect with other women who get this so you don't feel alone. Because I think you can feel hope if you understand it, if you educate yourself and you find other women who, who are saying, oh my God, this happened to me too. I get this. You know, that is— or one friend that you feel you can really confide in who says, you know what, I believe you. Like, that is the most important thing for healing because a lot of women, if they don't have that, that, they will self-destruct. And it's so sad, but, you know, you can— and, and it does get easier. You know, it's like when someone passes away and people say it will get better over time. Eventually you just have it. That's what is usually what happens. And I think you will find a strength inside you that maybe you've never seen before. And, you know, I always I always say, like, you know, the world needs that light from women, you know, that your kids need to see that, you know, think of your kids and that they're going to get to see the true you. And that might pull you through on a really hard day.

I mean, I think women are so incredible. I can't believe what women go through, how strong they are. Resilient.

Yes. And at least nowadays we have the opportunity as women to talk about this. This, whereas, you know, I was raised by my great-grandma, and I'm sure she dealt with a lot of some of, you know, this stuff that we're— no one had a voice, you know. And so I think the more women start using their voices and continue to, that's a great thing.

I agree. Well, and I know that there's women who are going to want to find you. Can you tell them where to find you?

Yes. So I am not a big social media person, but I'm trying. But the best way to find me is, um, you— I am on all the socials. It @Dr. Cynthia Hover. And my website is the best place to find me at www.drcynthiahover.com. And you can get the free guide. You can find my podcast is going to be up there, blogs. I'm starting to do all the stuff and I do try to create as many free things as I can for women to help them through this.

Well, I love what you're doing. I love the people that you're helping. I love that you're sharing your story. I mean, I'm so inspired by you. And I can't thank you enough for your time and your expertise today.

Thank you for having me on. It's been, it's been good. It's hard to talk about, but it's been good. It is.

It's such a hard topic and such a needed topic.

Yes. Yes. Which is why I'm, you know, putting myself out there because it has to be talked about.

I agree. This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

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