Episode 465: Honest Love, Real Intimacy.

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No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza. Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am over the moon excited because I get to talk to the fantastic Shana James. Shana, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me here today.

Um, I have to tell everyone who you are. You knew I was gonna do this.

I know, because I did it too when I interviewed you.

So she just interviewed me and it was so much fun, and I'm so excited that I get to continue the conversation, and now it's my turn to interview her. And I met Shana. Did we, did we meet the day we were born?

I mean, probably not, but maybe we— because we're still trying to figure out if we were born in the same nursery or the same hospital.

If we were, then we're gonna figure that out when we're done with this. I'm gonna figure that out. So we were born— yes, we were born on the same day. Yep, same town. And I think we had birthday parties together, didn't we?

Did we? I don't know.

Yes. There's pictures of us having birthday parties together.

Sweet. Probably at school and things, right?

Like, no, like in my house. Really? I will find the pictures and show you.

We have to find that.

We, we, we were friends from the beginning. Oh, um, we went to high school together, and then Shayna left Buffalo. I did. Listen, I understand.

Yeah, I, I needed to work some things out. I needed to get away from family, whatever it was.

Well, we miss you in Buffalo, but I get to talk to her on Zoom, so it's awesome that I can see her face and talk to her. But let me tell you why I'm interviewing Shayna, because she is quite the expert. She is a love and relationship coach with 20 years of experience helping couples overcome disconnection and build lasting trust. She has a master's in psychology and expertise in communication and sensuality. She specializes in helping people find healthy relationships after 40. Shana authored Honest Sex, hosts the podcast Man Alive and Practicing Love. I was just interviewed for Practicing Love.

Yes, you were.

Go find her podcasts and delivered the TEDx talk What 1,000 Men's Tears Reveal about the crisis between men and women. Oh my God, Shayna, can we get deeper? Oh my gosh, we're gonna get deep with our conversation. But you know, I, I want to start with like, I really want to know what inspired you. Why did you start helping people over 40? Like, how did that happen?

I got older.

I love the honesty.

Well, right, the honest truth is, you know, as I was in my 20s, I was working with people who are young, and I actually in my 20s worked with people in their 40s, 50s as well. Um, but as I got older, I started to see how amazing of an opportunity it is as we are in midlife and beyond to have the best love and sex of our lives. I'm gonna cough.

Sorry, I love that. I love that.

Yeah, I do. So whether people are single or, you know, single and looking for someone or in a relationship, I believe that because we are getting to know ourselves, because we are a little bit more humble than we were, because we aren't riding the, the coattails of our hormonal cocktail, right, that's just like working perfectly and just sending out all the messages, you know, there are struggles and our bodies change and our hormones change and life, you know, smacks us on the head a bunch of different times. And so in that pain and struggle, we have the opportunity to love and be loved in ways that are profound. And rather than the midlife crisis or, you know, I got divorced, so I'm not saying people don't have to get divorced, but ideally I love to support people to, come back to each other and find love. Either if you're single, to find love that starts with the foundation of real healthy, you know, amazing love, profound love, or to come back to each other if you've drifted.

Are you seeing a, a pattern of different issues after 40?

Yes. Yeah, because we, especially as women, I don't know when you started going through perimenopause, or I think we talked about your symptoms are not nearly to the level that I've gone through, but I will say it has been a hellish time in many ways. Yeah. Like physically painful, emotionally painful. And, you know, I'm getting help and I'm, I'm getting, you know, help from doctors and things like that. But I would say my partner who— so I now have a partner. We've been together almost 3 years, and I apologize to him sometimes because it started basically a year after we got together. And I was like, usually you have more time with someone before you have to deal with this, but he's been a total godsend. Oh, um, and you know, he's gone through his own issues, and he's had heart issues. And so we've— we got close very fast because of the vulnerability of what we were going through. And so I see this with couples and people who are single at this age, that the more we're willing to show up with what's really going on instead of trying to pretend we've got it all together, the more intimacy and love get to happen.

So whatever you're comfortable disclosing. Yeah. So whether it's yourself or talking to another woman that you've heard is struggling, can you tell us some of the perimenopause symptoms because women will want to hear this.

Yes. Okay, can I give you my like funniest— I think it's the funniest analogy of what was happening for me. Um, I described to one of my girlfriends in a text— I, I can't— it was a little while ago, like maybe 6 months or almost a year ago, so I can't remember exactly how I said it, but I was like, I started taking estrogen and I started using estrogen cream and I was like, oh my God, you know, it used to feel like I internally, I started to feel like I was a desert. Like it was dry and painful to have sex and just horrible. And I was like, now that I'm taking estrogen, I feel a little bit more like a golf course. Like there's lots of green and it's a little more lush and sure there are some spots that I have to like be careful around, But it just, it just cracked me up because, you know, you have to laugh sometimes when things are painful. So, I mean, I was starting to feel anxious in ways that I hadn't. I was starting to feel— I described myself a couple summers ago, I felt kind of like a pancake, like I was just flat. I had no energy. And because I have a meditation practice, I could witness all of this and I wasn't going off the deep end. But it just, you know, it's not been comfortable in any way, shape, or form. And so to have a partner who I can say, hey, this is what's going on, or here's how you can love me today, or here are the positions we, you know, used to love and they're not working for me right now, so how do we do that? How do we find new ones together? And it's been really amazing to lovingly request of him Um, and then to have him lovingly, you know, be like, how can I, how can I love you better?

Oh, I love that. Yeah. So have you talked to women who are experiencing perimenopause symptoms?

Yeah.

And it's affecting their relationship?

Yes.

And you have helped— can you tell us how you have helped them? Just because I know people who have complained about this. Yes.

Well, I had a conversation with a woman recently, and when I said that I support women to have the best love and sex of their lives. And we've known each other for a little while. And she was like, is that really possible? Like after 40? She was like, are you serious? And I'm like, yes, I'm 100% serious. I said, because it might look different or feel different. It might not be the, like, you know, hot fiery, we're having sex every day or whatever, but the intimacy and the connection and the feeling loved and cherished and adored, and it can still be, you know, hot and exciting. So she, as we got into more of the dynamic of what was happening in her relationship, she was like, oh. I think I'm cutting his balls off a lot. Like, I'm— the way I'm talking to him is not very nice. And she was like, all right, you know, we came up with a practice for her to go back to her husband and just start saying whatever she was saying, but saying it in a way that created more connection as opposed to more distance. And she came back to me the next time we had coffee and she was like, it's really helping. It's changing things because nobody wants to— not that this is all about sex, of course, it's, you know, about love and connection and partnership, but sometimes sex is a concrete way to see the dynamics that are happening under the surface or less concretely. And so who wants to have sex with someone who you feel angry with or disappointed by or all of those things? And so the, the more you can consciously learn to talk about those things and work them through and be on the same team together, not only does the conflict decrease, but the love and the cherishing increases.

Sounds perfect. I mean, I just talked to someone who would tell you, like, I wish she could, like, conference in right now. Yeah, because she feels totally disconnected to her husband. Yeah, so to the women listening who are saying that, how can they start to feel more connected?

Yeah, one of the things I suggest, and we talked a little on your podcast about the what you would do in the moment versus when you're calm with Seth, right? There's like the outside the moment and then there's the inside the fiery moment, um, or the whatever moment, the upset moment. Um, one thing that I suggest is having a conversation where it's like, hey, I'm noticing this. I'm noticing we are more disconnected than we used to be. I'm noticing we are fighting more. I'm noticing I'm feeling sad that I want certain things to be happening between us and they're not. Um, and even before that, I guess if you're not feeling yet like you're ready to have that conversation or you don't know how to have that conversation, You can start journaling about it. What am I— what is missing here for me? What am I sad about? What am I longing for? Um, what am I attributing it to? Uh, and I highly recommend in my book Honest Sex, I have a lot of practices and journaling exercises and things to really get clear. What do you need and what do you want? And Oftentimes we, I think, were raised as women and men too, but in a different way, to not ask ourselves those questions.

Very true. Very true. And, you know, we just talked on Shayna's episode about how Seth and I are not perfect. Okay. So when I give Seth praise right now, I'm going to tell you, Seth and I are not perfect. Seth is not the average man, which I've told you, and wants to have the deep conversations. Yeah. However, I'm finding that women go to their husband and say the things, and their husband maybe isn't comfortable having the conversation.

Yes.

So can we help them?

Yes. Oh my gosh, I love this. I was talking to one of my couple clients and the woman, she was so cute. She was like, I'm, I'm a, I'm a butterfly. Like I'm delicate, you know? And I was like, yes. Right. I was talking to him and I'm like, okay, when you said it that way, could you see how she wilted? Could you see how, right, her feelings got hurt or whatever? And then I said to her, I'm like, can I say something honest? And she said, yeah. And I'm like, sometimes you're a butterfly with fangs. And we all just started laughing because she was like, you're right, you're right. Like sometimes, you know, she, as delicate as she feels, she can get loud and attack him. And so, um, The, the thing I tend to lean into that I think is really powerful is vulnerability. And I know it's a scary thing to do, to go— when we go with more vulnerability than criticism, we have to open our hearts. And it's scary because we could hear a no, or we could hear someone not care about us, right? Or we could be— we can be afraid that we're going to be too much or not enough or all those things, we're not gonna be lovable anymore. But what I do find is that when we can lean into, okay, I've been with this partner for whether it's a year, a couple years, decades, we, we're here together for some reason, right? We, we have enough shared history that there is love, even if it feels much more faded or much harder to find it, can we lean in and take a step toward trusting that this person, you know, actually, if I give this person a chance, they're going to be more likely to come toward me. So I often say it as, and maybe we've talked about this before on one of your past podcasts, that the opposite, like if you think of a coin, the opposite side of a coin from a complaint is a desire. And most often, or often, we as women can be like, I don't like this. In my marriage, I was like, I don't like that we're not having the spiritual sex I wanna have, or I don't feel seen. I don't feel listened to in certain ways. But when I realized that I could actually come with desire, here's what I would love it to look like. Here's what I, here's how I want to be touched here. You know, would you be willing? And it doesn't happen right away always. And, and if it didn't happen right away, I would bounce back into, okay, well now I have an excuse to complain or now have an excuse to criticize. I'm now seeing in my current partnership that there just really isn't a need to complain or criticize. I'm not saying we can't do that with our girlfriends. And, you know, if we have a context where we are used to having conscious conversations with our partner, we can work those in. But usually, if we're not feeling connected, then we've got to start bringing a level of consciousness and vulnerability to be able to ask for what we want and, um, and appreciate what is happening also, right? Like, oh, I appreciate that you do spend time with our kids, or that you do take care of this part of our relationship, and I am wanting more. And it feels scary to say that, but these are the things that my heart is actually longing for. I see a lot of women who, um, have partners who are doing that very masculine thing they were taught to do, which is provide, and then the women don't feel their hearts are being met.

And that's, that's Spot on. That's perfection right there, what you said. And I think that we don't realize as women, and I can speak for myself too, that when we come at them, we're pushing them away and they're running away, right? Versus coming softer and more vulnerable, like you said. And we don't realize we're coming at them. Yes.

Yes. And I don't want to make it more work for women, because what I will say is it actually, eventually, it's going to feel better to you also, because you get to stay connected to your own self and your own truth and your own heart versus getting into that state, you know, of anger and frustration or collapse and just, you know, going in, um, being alone, but that inner turmoil that we all know is like, well, it's like we're throwing up inside of ourselves, right? When it's so horrible and we're beating ourselves up and, and all of that. And instead, to be able to have a conversation where we walk away and we're like, I actually feel more loved, or I actually feel more understood.

Oh, that's our goal. That's what we want. Dana's gonna help us get it.

Yes, I love helping that happen.

Well, and I told you before we started that I get a lot of women telling me that they don't even want to have sex.

Yeah, of course.

And, and we have this, we have this conversation all the time, and they're like, you know, and it's, it's not— I shouldn't say it's just the, the women. Like, it's very awesome. It's awesome when both partners want the same thing at the same time, the same amount of times. And it's not right. And it's— what I have seen and talked to is most couples, it's one or the other. One is asking, one is saying no. So how can we help them even want to? Because that's a very common problem.

Yeah. Well, first I will say it's you know, in addition to our bodies and our hormones changing, if you're our age, um, if you, if you have been feeling disappointed, misunderstood, you know, unheard, you're not going to want to have sex. Like, our bodies don't open in that situation. And so that's where, even though my book is called Honest Sex, right? Most of it is about communication. The whole first third is about how do we be honest with each other in a way that is— I call it mature honesty because it's not saying, you know, I think you're being an asshole. It's saying, oh, what you just said hurt my feelings. Or, hey, I noticed that, you know, you've been going out a lot and I'm feeling a little bit left out of your life. And I'm wondering how we can have more time together. Or a woman who I'm working with in a couple was like, I just, I want some of that time where we used to have where we put our phones away and we just actually pay attention to each other. You know, so as you can start, first of all, imagining and not thinking it's too much to ask for, you know, start imagining if you could have it be any way. What would be happening? How would you feel more loved and more cared for? And then you could come to a partner and have a conversation and say, hey, I've been thinking about this. I've been thinking how, what would have me feel more loved? And I wanna hear from you also. How would you feel more loved? And maybe you give them that prompt and you say, will you spend a couple days thinking about this? And we could talk about it next week. Cuz you don't wanna put someone on the spot, right? Sometimes. I always say the first part of a conversation should be, when would be a good time to have a conversation? Is this a good time or do you want to schedule a time? Because I know if someone comes to me in the middle of a workday or something and they're like, let's talk about this now. I'm like, whoa, I'm not there. And I think— I'm busy. Yeah. And I think men often have that too. So, right. Find a good time to have the conversation and start to dream together. I think that's part of what we lose. As we get older, stop dreaming and we start just fucking taking care of shit because of the to-do list.

Throw the freaking to-do list. Like I said to Seth last night, yeah, I said I have a million things to do and I don't care, I'm not doing any of them right now. I love it.

Yeah, like how do you give yourself permission to have some pleasure back in your life and to let things drag on a little longer if that's what needs to happen? And There's a chapter in the book where I say, I think it's something like a section that's like, it's not about the garbage, the money, or the, you know, it's not, it's not about those surface things that we think it's about. So if you're feeling upset that the garbage isn't being taken out, it's usually, I don't feel supported or I don't feel connected or right. I'm doing this. And I'm not feeling heard. Like, there are things that I do and I feel great about doing them because my partner's doing something else, or because I know he is so caring and loving that he's creating something that's going to help me feel loved. So I don't care if I take out the garbage, right?

I love the way you explained that because people don't realize it's not about the garbage. Not, not about the garbage.

Not about the garbage.

So you work with so many people. I mean, what would you say the biggest communication issues are that we can fix?

I think the biggest communication issues are— one of them I would say is explaining, like we hurt someone's feelings, or somebody says, my feelings are hurt, or I say, my feelings are hurt, and the other person is like, well, I didn't mean it that way, or, you know, yeah, but I do this for you, so therefore we could let this one slide. Or I think we tend to miss each other, and we tend to forget that we are these tender humans, men and women both, which is why, right, my TEDx talk, What 1,000 Men's Tears Reveal About the Crisis Between Men and Women, I mean, I've dated— I realize this is not something to be proud of, but I'm gonna be proud of it. Maybe it's not something to be proud of. I've dated in every decade of my life because I got divorced. So I dated in my teens and in my 20s and in my 30s and 40s. Um, and so I've gotten to be with many men, and there are men who've told me, like, I've never cried with a woman before. There are men who've told me, the only— I've cried with women, but they've all left me because of it. And then I've worked with thousands of men who, you know, vulnerably open up and often cry with me. And I just— it's so beautiful to see that whatever men are showing on the surface, there is a vulnerable, tender one underneath the surface. And usually women are like, I want I want that one. I wanna know him. I wanna, I want him to open up to me. Though I will say oftentimes when men open up, it can be scary cuz we're not taught how to navigate that. Or we're like, oh shit, now is he gonna be sobbing on the floor forever? So I just, I wanna put a plug in that the way I see it, the more a man can open up and share his heart with you, the stronger he gets. And it can become unbalanced, right? It can become like, oh, now he's just always crying with me. But really, like, how, how likely is that? How often does that happen? It's just, it's so rare. It's more our fear. So more common is that he's gonna zip it back up and, you know, you're not gonna see it again for 6 months or a year. But as we start to make it safer, like, hey, I care about you and I want to know what's really going on. And, you know, if something hurts your feelings, tell me. Um, the more we get to be close.

It's so interesting because I don't know if you can relate to this, but I tear up all the time. Like, I'm an emotional person and we're Cancers. Yes. Like, I will tear up. Like, I teared up reading my friend's post this morning because I was so happy for her. I mean, I just tear up all the time, but like, we don't expect our men to do that. Right. It's okay for us.

Yeah.

But they don't, they're not expected to do that.

No.

And it's interesting.

It's sad to me in a way. I mean, I, I, besides the relationship coaching, I'm on a couple boards and, you know, organizations trying to really create a culture change where men get to be held in their vulnerability and they don't have to be so alone and isolated because when you look at the state of the world and the things that are happening, when I attempt to look through a lens of compassion, most of the men who are harming other people, some of it is mental illness, some of it, you know, there are many things happening, but a lot of it is fatherless boys. A lot of it is, um, you know, men who have been rejected. And I'm not blaming us for that, but it's like there's so much pain under the surface. And for those, I, you know, I see myself as an ally, and there are other women who are like, I would not touch that with a 1,000-foot pole. And that's okay, you don't have to. But if there's a man in your life who you love, then you get to get a little bit closer and a little bit more intimate and make more space for him to feel safe to open up. And if you feel like, well, he's not doing that for me, then that's a conversation to have, right? How can we both support each other to feel more understood?

I'll tell you what I'm hearing in my head right now.

Yes, tell me.

Okay, so I wanna talk about moms and then I wanna go to dating cuz you mentioned dating.

Okay.

So moms have long lists every day. You're a mom, you know.

Oh God.

Like it's like chaos. Endless to-do list. You know, you're working, you have a kid, it's just a lot. And sometimes what I have heard, as you're talking about, you know, like, let the man have their feelings, blah blah blah—

it's not blah blah blah, but she's like, come on, move on, get over it, right?

Like, the women are like, I have enough to do. Like, it's more on their to-do list, so they're feeling like they're feeling disconnected because of the chaos and the to-do list.

Yeah.

So how do we help moms manage the chaos and still feel happily happy in their relationship?

Brilliant question. Well, I do think that taking time away, you know, finding moments, finding time, ideally when the two parents are not tired, um, is important.

And yes.

And consciously, right? Not just like, hey, we're gonna have a date night where we go to the movies, you know, let off some steam and do something that's fun too. But also even just to add one question in there, like, um, you know, how did you feel loved by me this week? Or how would you like to feel more loved by me next week? Or write something. I mean, my partner and I do check-ins sometimes weekly, sometimes monthly, just to just to make sure that all this stuff isn't getting shoved under the rug. And as a mom, you might hear it as, oh shit, another thing to do. But again, you know, you can do this one question at a time or right before you go to bed. Like, here's what I appreciate about you, or here's what, you know, will you tell me what you appreciate about me? Or you can do these in little chunks. So I don't want to sound like I'm adding more to do, but I just went out last night and had dinner with some women and I came back feeling So lit up and so much lighter than I had been. Right? So taking some time for yourself. I have one mom I'm working with who, as her husband is starting to go through some transitions and he's been taking some more time away for, um, you know, to, to be in a men's circle. She was like, oh, I'm getting resentful. And we really got to the fact that she's like, because she's not centering herself in her own life. She's like, oh, well, maybe I want to take a martial art, or maybe I want to do a thing. And for us as women, oftentimes it's like, but I don't want to leave the kids, or I don't— our kids are okay, especially with the moms I know who come to you. We are such amazing moms. And do you know the good enough mothering theory? I can't remember which psychologist, Margaret Mayer maybe?

No, but I like that already.

Basically, like, if we are attuned to our children like 35% of the time that they're, they're, they're going to be amazing, or they're, they're going to feel loved by us. And I think we put pressure on ourselves, like, we have to be here 100% of the time. And, and I will say, as a mom who's divorced, I had to let go from a younger age than I think a lot of moms do. And what I saw was I would be really scared, like, oh my God, are they going to be okay? And, you know, is Is the dad gonna show up in a way that's gonna be attuned and all of these things? And as I let go, I saw that the relationship that they started forming was better than if I had my muddy fingers in, right? Like trying to be there all the time.

That's good advice. So you're speaking to my heart because, you know, you would think after 18 years I would be better at this, but So I have plans tonight with friends.

Awesome.

I have an 18-year-old, 16-year-old, and 12-year-old. The 12-year-old went to school and was out all night last night, so I didn't see her. I literally saw her for a little while last night. So I'm feeling guilt. Like, I'm sitting here talking to you feeling the guilt because I didn't see her yesterday. And I'm like, and here I am. I'm not gonna see her today because she's gonna come home and then I'm gonna leave. But It's okay, she'll be fine, she'll be fine.

And you can even have a conversation. I mean, you— I know you know this, I'm not— we all, we all know this, but we can have conversations too of like, oh my gosh, I love you, I'm so excited to spend time with you this weekend. I know it's a couple days in a row, and you know, just know that I'm excited, or know that I love you, or whatever it may be. When we, when we set the context for the people we love, it makes it a lot easier versus like I'm just gone and I haven't addressed it. If we address it, then they get to feel cared for.

I love that it's okay if she goes out and she's out for hours, but if I go out tonight, she's going to be like, where are you going? Girl, you were out all last night. I don't want to hear it.

Oh my God.

I want to back up to dating because you said something important. You said you've dated in every decade. Okay, so what that means to me, yes, is that you have some really good dating advice for people. So give it to us.

Okay, well, I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I am focusing on one area of my work, you know, helping women over 40 find love, especially as moms, especially who, you know, after divorce and all the things, and Um, I've had really great dating experiences and great online experiences, and I say that not to brag or be arrogant, but because I, I have been really looking at like, why, why is it that way when so many women have such negative experiences? And I think it's because I have an incredibly high bar and I have incredibly high compassion. So Um, as I was dating as a single mom running my own business, I was like, I am not gonna go meet with people unless I'm having a conversation that inspires me, you know, on an app. If there's someone who I'm like, ooh, you are a great human, you know, I don't know if we will be partners or if I'll be attracted to you, but you're someone I respect and admire, like then I will go out with you or then I'll have a phone call with you. I also did a bunch of short dates. Like short coffee dates, or this one guy was running late and he was like, I'm only going to be able to meet, you know, between your time and my time for like 15 minutes. Should we still do it? And I was like, sure, let's sit in front of each other for 15 minutes and then we'll get to see. Yes. You know what it feels like to be together. Um, you know, my mom and my mom always told me to at least give a guy a second chance or a second date. And I'm not, I don't have any rules, so I'm not going to say But I will say, my current partner, I, I knew he was an amazing man, but I wasn't sure I was attracted to him for like 5 or 6 dates.

What?

But what I was doing was I was like, okay, Shayna, I've picked based on attraction and chemistry and all those things in my life. I'm putting on my big girl panties and I am going to go at this from a different angle. I'm gonna see like Who would make an amazing partner? And then can we together, because I believe that this is really possible and, and I've done it and I teach it like to cultivate the chemistry or chemistry often shows up when we feel loved and cherished and, you know, someone has our back. So I, yeah, I, I am starting to call these men the Clark Kents, the ones who they don't show up with this like bold, confident bravado. They're a little quieter. They're a little held back. They're actually trying to take care of us because they don't want to blow us out. They don't want to be disrespectful. And so they hold back. And I think there's a whole, like, a whole strata of men that get missed because they don't come with that forward. So I was actually just writing an article recently around the different kinds of potential. Like, there's, you know, everyone says like, don't date for potential. And I was like, yeah, but I did date for potential, so what's the difference? And it's like, don't date for potential if a man is distrustful or out of integrity, or, you know, he's just like those kinds of things. If you're not feeling understood or treated well, but maybe do date for potential if you're seeing this man has an amazing heart and he is a good father, or he, you know, he really gets women. He seems to adore women, but okay, maybe he's not, you know, as stepping into his balls as much as he could, right? But like, we can actually really inspire them to grow and to become more of themselves. And not in a way that we have to do work, but in a way that's fun, where they get to invite more of us You know, we get to be our full selves, they get to be our full selves. So I don't know if that, that makes sense.

Well, it's interesting because as I hear about dating issues, okay, what I'm hearing— when I— well, what I'm hearing from you, what I want— if you're— I mean, whether you're single or not single, I think what you're saying is to be open-minded. Yeah, right. And I think that the issues stem when they're closed off, closed-minded, Um, some, some people's standards— like, we can have amazing partners, but your standards are getting in the way of that.

Yeah. Or we think, like, especially now, I'm like, I would like a half-caf, half-sugar, half-ice, half-this latte. And so then it's like, if someone doesn't show up the way we want it right away, we think, oh, that's not gonna work. And again, I, I also want to say that I, I'm starting to call it sacred discernment because I think that we do have to discern, right? You know, we, we can have this intuition in the moment, oh, this person's not going to be a right fit for me, or there's— we don't have anything in common, or there's nothing here. But I guess I'm just inviting women to give it a little more depth as you're discerning. Right, from that place of how could this go or what might this become. And if it's really a no, it's a no. Honor that, right? Don't, don't, um, mistrust yourself. But I do think we're trained to pick for confidence and bravado. Like I would say, like, we're trained to pick for Superman and the Clark Kents get lost.

Well, So when I met Seth, he said, are you done with your asshole stage? I'm gonna ask you that before we start dating.

That's a great question.

I love that question. I was done.

But we, right, we can associate asshole with confidence, or there's this way that we think, oh, it's okay that he's being a jerk because he's strong and that's kind of sexy. And I I, I think I retrained my brain a little bit to really start to associate kind and generous and caring and supportive with sexy. And I do think my partner has gotten sexier and sexier, like, over time. I mean, it's, it's amazing to see.

It sounds like maturity. Yes, that's what it's, it's like, it sounds like a maturing brain.

Yeah, that's where I was like, okay, I want to date in a mature way. I don't want to date from my 20s. I want to date from my 40-year-old brain.

So I, I went off to this single land, but I want you to give the woman advice listening who is single and doesn't want to date but wants a relationship. Can you give her like some encouragement?

Yes. And I also want to say that being single is okay. There's nothing wrong. I think if I hadn't met my current partner and he wasn't so amazing, because neither one of us expected. We just thought we were gonna date a little bit, and then we, you know, found each other. But I would be so happy to be single right now. So I just want to say, if, if you are happily single, there's nothing wrong. If you're unhappily single, I want to say that I think there are way more men— I meet amazing men all the time, and I know that women don't, so I'm not trying to make you wrong. But I will say, I'm actually starting to, to come up with a project where I want to gather the most conscious loving men in the world. Cause I'm like, I, having coached men, I have these people who have networks of men and I'm like, I want to gather all of the amazing ones and start highlighting them and put them out there so that women can see them and maybe even find them. Um, so if you haven't met them, just know that I am, I am a full believer that they're out there through experience, not just fantasy. And I met my partner online. And it was kind of a sorting through, right? Like, yes, there are lots of men out there who I didn't feel respected by or didn't feel comfortable with, um, but it only takes one, you know. And so yeah, what— okay, what can I say? Who, you know, you want a relationship but you don't want to date. I guess the other thing I would say is figure out what makes it draining for you and then do what will make it more fun.

That's great advice.

Is it more fun to go out with friends? Is it more fun to tell everybody you know, here's what I'm looking for, and here are the, you know, the qualities I'm looking for, and if you know anyone like this, um, you know, send them my way? Like, what would make it feel easier, more delightful to you, even knowing that it isn't always easy?

That's great advice. Now, before I let you go, yes, to all of the people listening who are not feeling fulfilled in their relationship, whether it's disconnected, lack of intimacy, whatever the issue, can you leave them with some words of advice to move to a better direction? Yeah.

Um, The— what I'm seeing with men as I'm coaching men who are older is that, you know, some of those, some of those veils or the masks or the facades, there's more, there's more emotionality that starts to come through, or there's more of a willingness to like see that they don't know how long they have, that, you know, none of us really know how long we have. I mean, I have people dying around me who are our age and suddenly facing cancer. And so, I mean, it's just, it's so sad. So I am seeing men getting more willing to be vulnerable. And yeah, and, and knowing that the more clear you are about what you want and how you want it to go, And that can start by backing into it with, what am I hating? And what am I settling for? And what are my complaints? But the more you then move it into, here's what I want, here's what my heart is longing for, the more likely you are to have it. And divorce is hard, having been through it. You know, there are parts that I'm so grateful for and parts that I'm still exhausted by 12 years later. And so, you know, it's worth it to find your desires and find your truth and what you need and ask for it instead of having to break everything apart. And that said, if that's something you need to do, I 100% support you and I can, I can help you walk through that too. Um, but just know beneath all of our defenses and anger and upset and the kind of stoicism that men have, Everybody is vulnerable and everybody's tender. And when we recognize— we talked about this, I think, on me interviewing you— when we recognize that and we start to speak to the person underneath all of our frustrations and irritations and the one who isn't letting us in, we start to see changes and we start to see more intimacy happening.

I mean, you are full of so much good advice. Tell everyone where they can get more advice from you and tell everyone about how they can connect with you for coaching.

Yeah, so I've got a couple different guides that I think would be useful that we can put in the show notes. Um, one is for women who want to find love outside of bars and off of the apps and how to attract emotionally available men. I've got a couple of those. Um, I also, for women, have a guide, and whether you're going through perimenopause or menopause or not, I created a guide for that phase where you can, um, have some guidance around talking about it. And so again, whether you are— whether you know that, oh, this is part of my struggle or not, it's really just anything that you're struggling with inside of yourself that you want to have a conversation about and you're not sure how to go about it. That would be useful.

Awesome.

Um, yeah, and I'm trying to think the best way. I mean, you can go to my website, shaynajamescoaching.com. You can get a free copy of my book if you go to shaynajamescoaching.com/free. I also have a quiz of what's keeping you from having the best love and sex of your life, and that's shaynajamescoaching.com/quiz. So there's many different ways And if you want to bypass all of that and email me, you can email me at shayna@shaynajamescoaching.com.

And where do you take clients from? Can anyone anywhere connect with you?

Yeah, like around the world. I've worked with people around the world.

Amazing.

Yeah, Zoom is an amazing— it's just—

oh my gosh, I feel like I'm sitting with you. I mean, I wish we were in the same room, but this is second best. Yeah, yeah.

So if you're struggling, if you're feeling like, you know, love isn't what I thought it was going to be, or the spark is fading, or you're single and you don't want to be any of those, or if you're really— you know, some— there are some women out there who are like, it's good. I actually talked to a woman recently, she's like, we have a great— you know, we have a great partnership, like it is, we're great friends, but I don't know where the intimacy is, or I just, I want it to be more than this, and I don't even know why. I just, I do. I have that feeling, right? Even if you don't know exactly what it is, we can talk about it.

Well, I can't thank you enough. I took up a ton of your time today.

I'm so happy.

Really appreciate you.

Thank you. I appreciate you so much, and I love, I love moms and being moms and not being a mom alone and Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's, it's hard. It is so hard and so beautiful at the same time. And they are our biggest teachers, our children. And then sometimes it's like, oh, I have to be in a relationship too.

It is so funny. It's like the most exhausting thing in the world, but we wouldn't want it any other way.

I mean, I'm like, I might want it another way. Not that I wouldn't want my kid Just, just maybe a little easier. A little easier. Yeah, I could, I could do that.

Oh my gosh. Well, let's let Shana get on with her day. This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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