Episode 469: Anger in Relationships – How to Stay Connected When You’re Upset

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No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza. Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene. Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Love between humans is just not easy. And without great examples or education about emotions, communication, sex, and what keeps love alive, it's too easy to be disheartened, settle, or give up on what you want most. I believe you can have the love and intimacy you want, and having coached thousands of people on their love lives for over 20 years, I know what love can be for you. So I'm bringing you people who share vulnerably about their dating and relationship struggles and how they learn to create the most connected, fulfilling and exciting love and sex of their lives. So you can have it too. If you haven't yet taken the quiz to see what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life, go to shaynejamescoaching.com/quiz. You'll get a personalized report of your strengths and challenges in the 5 crucial areas that lead to your most fulfilling and exciting love and sex life. Go to shaynejamescoaching.com/quiz to find out. Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I am like a giggly kind of excited today to be here with my old friend. My— she's not old, we are not old. My friend from many, many years, actually from birth, Rebecca Greene. We were born on the same day, in the same town, in the same hospital, I think even, right?

I was going to ask you that. I should have found that out before we met today.

I can't remember if it was the same hospital, but we were born on the same day in the same town and grew up together. And it's so delightful to be with you. And every time I'm with you, I feel how big your love is. And I'm excited for you to talk about your relationship and how the consciousness of your love that I've gotten to witness, and also the struggles because Again, the, the point of this podcast for listeners, if you have not heard, is really to share where people struggle in love and how they're practicing. Because I don't believe, as much as I would love it to be that way, I don't believe we just overcome our struggles and then we're good and we, you know, relate in a way that's easy. I think we're consistently working with the struggles. So Rebecca has Whiny Palooza, which is a podcast, a blog. An online support group. I know you have your master's in social work. So, you know, again, so far I've been interviewing experts in the field of psychology and spirituality because I also wanna show that even those of us who've been practicing for a really long time are still practicing. So thank you so much for being here with us today.

Thank you for having me. You know how excited I am to be here and to talk to you. And I had to cut myself off cuz I kept talking to her. And I was like, wait, I'll save it. I just wanna talk to Shayna all day. That's fun.

I know, I love it. All right, so as we're diving in, can you first say a little bit about what is Winey Palooza for those who don't know it? 'Cause I think it's not exactly obvious.

Yes, it is. It's really like evolved over the years. Now I'm a social worker who did family therapy and marital therapy before I had children. And then when I started having kids, I really wanted to focus work at home and what could I do at home to build a social work career for myself that worked for our family. Yeah. So it started as a blog, which you can find at whiningpalooza.com. And I just was like venting my stress and using my degree and helping mothers.

Um, okay. So the whiny palooza piece is We get to vent, we get to whine, we get to just release and be on the— not be alone with all of this.

Well, so the title came because at the time that this evolved, my children were whining all the time and we always had a party to take them to. So my husband Seth was like, it's whiny palooza all the time. So that's where the name came from. So I really wanted— I felt alone at times and I wanted to really form a network of support for women to not feel that way. And I wish I had this for myself when my first child was born. Yep. So it went from a blog to a vlog to a podcast to books to a newsletter to an online support group.

Amazing.

So it just keeps evolving. It will continue to evolve and I absolutely love it. I call myself a new age social worker.

A new age social worker. I love this. It is a new age. We are wanting so much more from love and from parenting and all of our relationships. And I think we're capable of so much more. And we also weren't given the tools for the so much more we're wanting, but we're learning them. So it is, it's definitely a new age that doesn't, to me, we're building a map, but it, there hasn't been a map.

I know, it's just, you know, it, it's— we're ever evolving and we're changing with the times. And it's interesting how social work evolves and how our careers can be online.

Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. I love working with people online that we wouldn't be able to work with otherwise.

Oh my gosh, I'm talking to you and, and where— I'm in Buffalo, you know that, right? And I don't even know where you You're still there. So we're literally on two other sides of the country. I know, it's amazing.

Amazing.

It's awesome.

Okay, tell us about your relationship currently. I know, 'cause I grew up with your husband also, so I know you've been together for a long time, but tell us a little bit, you know, how did, how did that start or when did that start? And anything, anything you want us to know that's unique about your relationship?

Did you know Seth in high school? Did you talk to him?

Okay.

Because I never said a word to him in high school. Do you know that? Like, I could have told you what his name was. He was in the grade below Shayna and I, and I always knew who he was, but I never spoke a word to him.

I did not.

So fast forward. Shayna may or may not know this story. I was sitting in Temple. Shayna knows where I attend. I have seen her there.

Yes.

And I was just kind of sad looking around at all the families. And I was like, you know, I want this. And why can't I have this? And then the next time I attended temple, Seth was sitting behind me. Do you know this story? No. So he followed me to the bathroom and gave me his card. And like, we like just reminded each other who each other was. And I don't know how many months later, my friend at work encouraged me to— she wanted me to call him, but I— because Seth was like, call me. And I'm a chicken and I didn't wanna call him, so I emailed him.

Perfect.

And he emailed me back and said, here's my number, call me tonight. And I'm like, Scott Greene, call me. So anyways, I was like, I am doing this, darn it. And I called him and that's where it started. And we talked every night and learned about each other. And being the social worker that I am, I really interviewed him.

Great.

And it's been 21 years since then. Wow.

Amazing.

And what can I tell you about us? I mean, I wrote— go ahead.

You go, you go.

I wrote a list. Um, I was in a bad relationship and I haven't talked to Shayna much about my relationship before Seth, but I was in a not good relationship and I wanted to start thinking about what didn't I like and what was I looking for. So I started writing down what was I looking for in a relationship, in a man, and really spelled it out specifically. When I met Seth and went over my list, Seth was everything and more. Aww. From the list. So I feel like I manifested him.

Amazing. Can you give us a couple examples? Because I know people write their lists in different ways, and I'm imagining yours wasn't like, 6-foot-tall, brown hair, buff, whatever. Like, I imagine yours went a lot deeper.

He is giving. He cares about my feelings. He cares about my religion because my previous relationship did not. Um, he— what else did I have on my list? He wants children. I put he lives in Buffalo because I didn't want to leave. I wanted to stay near my parents. He loves to have deep conversations.

You know, how could we be with someone who did not have deep conversations?

Right? He loves to spend time with me. He loves to compromise with me. Like, just like everything that I wasn't getting, I turned into what I wanted.

Beautiful. And what I've seen somewhat from a distance, and, you know, a couple times I've been with you two together, is how much he does honor you and he celebrates you. And I've seen online, you know, when you have a birthday or anniversary, he says the most loving, adoring things. And he really, he really seems to get who you are at the core and make that known to other people.

That's so sweet. I think that Seth and I were in bad relationships before each other. And I think that it— I'm so thankful. Oh my God, I'm so thankful because it makes me— we appreciate each other so much because we know what it's like not to have this.

Yeah. And even after 21 years?

Oh my gosh. I said to him yesterday, I said, do you know that I praise myself every day for picking you? Like every day I'm like, you did. I tell myself, you did such a good job, because I almost didn't. I almost got married, and it would have been bad. So 21 years later, I'm like, thank you, thank you for doing such a good job.

Amazing, amazing. Okay, let's talk a little bit about a struggle. Yeah, and maybe that ties in with the relationship you had before Seth. Yeah, what would you say one of your struggles is that you're now practicing with him.

Well, and you know this, you bring yourself with to every relationship, right? So no matter what your issue is, right, right, whatever your issues are in general, no matter how awesome your husband is, you still have stuff that you need to work on. And my youngest is 12 and she has said to me, and you're a therapist?

Why? What was one of the moments that she said, "Wow"?

Okay, so here's the theme. This is the theme, and it goes with every relationship. Children, husband, parents, friends. Okay. I have to work on, and I practice this every single day, sometimes successfully, sometimes not successfully, staying calm and not reacting. Okay. So I wanna be responsive. I wanna be calm and I don't wanna be reactive and angry. Yeah. So I will get so pissed.

Yeah.

Okay. And I will jump. I will jump.

I've never seen your fiery side.

Oh, I'm so fiery. Okay. So Lily is me. Um, a little spicier.

Yeah.

A little spicier. And I see myself so much and she's so sweet, but she's also spicy. And my spiciness, I think evolved over the years. I think I was too nice and overcompensated a little bit.

Yeah.

Because I was feeling taken advantage of in that relationship that I told you about. Yeah. So I was feeling so walked all over that I like built up this strength. You're not gonna mess with me.

Yes.

So that comes out in like a fight, or like I will say to Seth, oh, you don't scare me. Or I will say to him, you're not gonna win this argument. Like, that is not— I don't recommend either of those statements, okay? I'm just telling you things I do wrong.

I love— well, I love that you're, you know, you're being human with this because You know, again, what you're not saying is I overcame that and I never say these things. It's like, oh, I am practicing and I'm practicing. And I imagine there's some cleanup when those things happen and you acknowledge, right? Oh, that wasn't my best.

I got pissed about something the other day and I like, I got really angry. Seth saw me get angry. It wasn't about him. It was about someone else. And I took a breath and I started thinking it through and I'm like, well, maybe it wasn't their fault because maybe this happened or that happened. And Seth goes, holy crap, you recovered so much quicker than you normally recover. And I was like, there's some growth, right? Like I have to like look at those moments of growth. Yeah. But I still got pissed.

Okay.

And I still reacted, but I was like, right?

It's not that we don't have the feelings when we're being conscious about it. It's more that, okay, can we pause? Can we regulate ourselves? Can we maybe self-soothe, or like you did, get curious in the moment? Oh, maybe it's not exactly as it seems.

So I was listening to an expert on a podcast say that, uh, you just said get curious. What was I going to tell you that he said? I got distracted by your curious. Um, oh, he said your partner is never intentionally trying to hurt you. If you come from that frame of mind of you— I think that Seth is being a dick in the moment. Yep. And he will come back and say to me, I'm never trying to hurt you.

Right.

Like, that's never my goal. And I will like think that he purposely did something to piss me off. So if I can stop myself and think he never wants to hurt me, he didn't mean it.

No, I talk about it with clients as assuming the best about our partners and then getting curious, right? Instead of assuming the worst. Assuming the worst is you're trying to do this, you're making me look bad, or you're You're trying to get back at me. And you know, if we're really honest, there may be parts, young parts of ourselves that are, there's a way that we often try to make someone else hurt like we are hurting.

Yes.

But if we know that under that, deeper than that, we are loved by our partner, as long as, right, you're in a mostly healthy relationship, there is a part that doesn't wanna see you hurting, that isn't trying to, it's just right, maybe trying to get its own needs met. But how do we get curious and how do we see each other deeper than those reactions? I was just working with a couple on this yesterday. It's like, can you see underneath the part that's reacting that way and have compassion, which is not easy.

It's not easy. And I have explained to Seth, this is not on Seth. This is on me. But I have explained to him that when I get angry, if he comes back at me with anger, it like fuels my fire.

Yes.

But if he comes back at me with kindness or hurt, like if I see that I hurt him, it totally deflames me.

Yes.

But like if he gets hot too, then I escalate, which again is not his fault. This is on me to work on myself.

Yes.

But like my fire, like the angry responses is like an everyday practice for me.

Yeah. Yeah. And how beautiful that, right? It's not his responsibility. And yet I've been reading a lot about therapists who are now talking about the we, the us, right? We have a shared nervous system in addition to our separate nervous systems. And so yes, if we can relate to each other. By deescalating or having that compassion or curiosity as opposed to now I'm gonna build another wall and attack your wall and you're gonna attack my wall. It goes much better.

Mm-hmm. So much better. Yeah.

Yeah. So tell me how those conversations go. I think people would appreciate hearing that cuz it doesn't sound like you're demanding of him. You're recognizing you play a role in this too, but it sounds like you're asking if he'd be willing to try meeting you in that way? Okay.

When we're calm, we're gonna go back to in the moment too.

Yes.

But when we're calm, I will say to him, I take full responsibility for how angry I got. And I am continuing to work on that every single day. Every single day I wanna show up and be a better wife to you. I tell him that all the time. I always wanna grow and do better, and I want to give you some advice on how to handle me.

Okay?

Yeah. So I will say, I wanna give you some tools for me, cuz sometimes he'll say, what do you want me to say?

It's great question.

I love, love when he asks that question. Give me the script, Rebecca Greene. What do you want?

Give me the key.

Yeah. Right? Like, tell me what you want. I'm like, I want you to recognize that every time I'm angry, I want you to remind yourself that I'm hurt.

Yes.

I'm hurt. I feel sad about something. And instead of crying, which he does so much better with, if I'm sad, he is all over that.

Yes.

If I'm angry, uh, anyways, we're working on it.

Well, so many people have a really hard time with anger because whether it's that we've experienced it in our families and we've been We've been cut down, we've been blamed, we've been attacked. It's like, it's a harder one for many people.

If he feels criticized, he gets defensive.

So, okay, say that again. That cut out.

If he gets criticized, if he feels criticized, he gets defensive. So those are our, that is our pattern is he feels criticized. And then he gets defensive and I, and I get angry that he got defensive.

Yes. And the fact that you follow this pattern is so powerful.

Yes.

That you're tracking it. 'Cause a lot of people just are like, oh, this thing's happening, but you've actually tracked the pattern.

Yes. Oh my gosh.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. So I'm like, if you realize where I'm coming from, a hurt place, You're not gonna get angry at me and I'm going to come down much quicker and we're gonna have a productive conversation. Yeah. And if you come back at me with anger, you see that I just end up getting angrier.

Yes.

And I'm like, I'm not put— and I tell him, I'm not putting this on you. This is my fault for getting angry. I always make that clear to him.

Yeah.

So I'm like, okay. And you know, I'm a freak, I'm a therapist. So I'm like, what are you gonna work on? What am I gonna work on? Like, let's identify this together.

Yes.

And we've had code words. We've had code words. Like we've said pickle to make each other— if I'm getting angry and he's getting defensive and the whole thing is starting, we're supposed to like throw that word out. We've done it a couple times.

Yep.

But I think it's just identifying it quick and starting over. Like even saying, ooh, I got mad. Let me start over.

Let me start over. Exactly. Well, and right, and I love that you're saying, hey, this is, this is my responsibility too. And okay, if you could help me with this one, right? Then there's a, how do you, what do you want in the moment when you feel upset or you feel criticized? How can I love you better in that moment?

Absolutely.

Yes.

And when he gets defensive, I have to identify that means he's feeling criticized and coming from a hurt place. Yes. So it goes both ways. So in the moment we have been successful. We've been not successful. We've been successful where I will say, I will, you know, be bratty and say, you're doing it. I'm angry and you're getting angry. And he's like, don't get angry.

That's not helpful.

Like he, he's been like, whoa, I'm being totally defensive. And I've been, whoa, I'm being way too reactive. So we have stopped in the moment. So it has—

Amazing.

It has stopped quicker many times. It has also played out and then we always go back and talk about it.

And part of what I love is that I think sometimes when I work with clients, I see that they're having an expectation of something always happens. And I'm like, okay, if we actually look at, you know, on a scale of, or, or let's say, you know, out of 10 times, if you used to explode 10 out of 10 times and now you're exploding 5 out of 10 times, that is progress. So we can't look at every situation.

Oh, I love that.

Right?

I love that. Yes. Oh my God. And he hates when I say always. Oh my God. If I could get rid of that word, you always do this. And he's like, I don't always do anything. He's like, do I really? If I always did that you wouldn't be here. That's one of his famous lines.

And I'm sure that you love hearing that in the moment, right? That probably soothes you or not. Not so much, right? Yeah. But it's a good reminder if you can be humble in that moment and then be like, okay, that's true. And I often say to couples like, all right, look at what's happening in the moment instead of all the times back then, because people can't hear that if we start lobbing all of that into the space at our partners, then we are more likely to get defensive.

Yeah. And it's like, let's be in the moment right now. What is upsetting us right now? Let's not talk about everything that's upset us for the last month.

Yes. Yeah. And I think it really, I see it's like this microcosm where as we go to heal that one moment, it often transcends and heals other moments. Whereas if we try to heal all of them, It gets stuck in a jumble.

Oh, I love that. That's really good. Really good therapy right there.

Yeah.

We'll just call you next time we have a fight.

I do that. That's just part of what I do. Like, oh my gosh. Hey, we're in the middle of it. What do we do now?

Oh my gosh. You know, if we could just take a breath, like we've even been like, okay, we're gonna separate. I'll see you in like 10 minutes.

Yes. It's so good, right? I mean, the Gottmans talk about other people, other therapists talk about it as like that when we're in that primal brain or when we're in our more reptilian nervous system, nothing gets solved from that place. So taking a break is powerful.

And I have had to explain to him, cuz he's very intellectual, you know that.

I do know that.

I have had to explain to him that my thinking goes out the window when I'm upset. Like, he expects his smart wife to show up. Yeah. And I'm like, the smart wife leaves the building, so you have to wait for her to return.

She went on a little shopping trip or something.

And I'm like, she's gone.

Like, she's gone.

I will even— it's so interesting, I get emotionally flooded. Okay, like, it's that whole regulation thing.

Yes.

And my brain feels flooded where I can't think rationally, and I know that about myself. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm so emotional right now, Seth, that I can't respond to you. Like, I have nothing.

Mastery. It's mastery to be able to say that instead of act it out.

Oh, I'm trying. See, I'm practicing, everyone.

Yeah. How do you on your own— we've talked about some of the ways that together you do it, but how are you on your own cultivating the capacity to be able to breathe, be able to pause more.

I have gotten so much better with my self-talk, like awareness of what am I telling myself all day long.

Yeah.

So this is a practice that I do all day. It's not just with Seth, it's not just with my kids. It's, you know, like I'm doing my work, you know, like before you and I met, I'm getting my work done. What am I telling myself in the process? Am I beating myself up? Am I encouraging myself? How am I talking to myself? So as I've practiced that all day long, every single day, then it comes into my relationship with Seth. And when we're arguing, I know exactly what I'm telling myself in the moment.

And I'm like, because we're born on the same day that we're both practicers, right? It's like, we really do practice. And I think that can go unnoticed or People are like, do I really have to work on this all the time? And I wouldn't say has to be work all the time, but the more we can witness and be conscious of what we're doing and practice having healthy habits, the better it goes when we're in that fiery moment.

Well, I don't know about your self-talk, but I started to realize that I was giving such love and encouragement to all the people around me. And then I would get in my own head about myself and I was like, hey, do you see what's going on here? Like, why are you being mean to yourself? But you're not being mean to other people. Like, you don't deserve that. So that's where it began. I started to identify that I was not being nice to myself.

And would you say that in the moments you weren't being nice to yourself, you would be more likely to be reactive and fiery?

That is an excellent question. Yes, because it's has to do with self-esteem. Yes, 100%. Because the better you feel about yourself, the better your self-talk, the better your reactions, right?

Then you're not trying to prove like, no, I'm not a jerk. I'm not this, I'm not that. You actually already know it. So then there's no need to fight about it.

I don't have to say, I am a strong woman and you will not walk all over me, because I already know that. I don't need him to prove it through our conversation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you take that weight off of the conversation.

Yes. I never really put two and two together. You're making me think over here.

Good.

I don't think people real— well, they probably do realize, but It doesn't matter if you're an expert in anything, you still need experts to talk to about yourself.

Yep. Yep. And you still, it's still harder to see your own patterns than someone else's patterns.

That is true. Oh my gosh. It would be so cool to have you like watch an argument and give us feedback. That would be so fun.

I'm just for— I would love it. I would love it. From a place of my heart, like I'd love it.

Yes.

I just love supporting people to actually get to be loved and give more love through understanding themselves and understanding each other.

Yes. Yes. And the more we love ourselves, which I've learned, the more I can love him better.

Yes. Yes. Do you have any other practices that are more self-regulating, whether it's meditation or breathing or things like that you do?

That is what I need to do. I think that my, I think I have like hobbies that regulate me. Mm-hmm. So I'm a huge, I walk every single day. Nice. And I cannot believe the mental benefits from walking. Like I just feel like it clears my head and I think better.

Mm-hmm.

So I do that every single day and I read every single day. And it's just like, those are my two favorite coping skills and it makes me present better to my family.

Yeah. I love that, you know, that, that you have a sense of these aren't just hobbies and things I enjoy, but they also help me relate better.

100%. We have to have time for ourselves. I have realized I did not know that. 18 years ago when I had Max. If I had known that, I would've been a better mom for him.

And we gotta have compassion for ourselves. I mean, I get up usually an hour and a half before I wake Ari up. Yeah. So that I can do a little bit of yoga, a little bit of meditation, and a little bit of listening to something. It's like 15 minutes each.

Wow.

Wow. Or, you know, something in that range because I feel so ungrounded and so unbalanced. And Ari's nervous system is very different from mine. She is incredibly grounded. Incredibly fiery, and I get thrown off a lot. So if I don't continually regulate myself, then I have a really hard time. And then I come to my partner and I'm like, oh, I'm exhausted, I can't even talk to you.

It's hard. Parenting is a whole— I mean, we're talking about marriage. Seth is easy compared to my youngest child. Yes, she is my greatest teacher in life. I am becoming a better person because of her.

Same. Oh, 100%, right?

And my—

and Ari's 13, so they're both almost about the same age. Yeah. And sounds like they're both giving us a run for our money.

Oh my gosh, the age, it's really— I think it's the hardest age. I'm gonna tell you from— I'm hoping I'm right. I swear.

You have an 18-year-old.

Yes, I have a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old, and I did not like the age that, that—

no, that gives me hope because I'm like, are we gonna make it?

So what grade?

7th.

Okay, so Lily and Ari finished the same grade. 7th grade was the hardest with math.

Brutal.

Hardest grade. Yes. So maybe next year will be easier for us.

Let's hope.

So anyone listening, 7th grade is rough.

It's funny, I've been talking to a lot of adults because when people say, you know, how's Ari doing? I'm like, oh, brutal. 7th grade is brutal. And people are like, oh my God, 7th grade was the worst for me. You know, there is something about— and I feel like as Parents, I think we often relive the dynamics we had, plus we're feeling our own children and trying to navigate their dysregulation. And so, yeah, it is, it is a challenge. And, and as I learn with her to be more patient, to not react, all those things, I get to bring them into my romantic partnership too.

100%. Yep. Yep. We're living it together, Shayna. Yes.

Wow. Okay. So as you are committed to growing, which is so beautiful, again, I don't know that a lot of people think of it that way. So if you're listening and you haven't thought about who you want to be or how you want to grow or what your commitment is to yourself or your partner, that's a really good one to start to journal about or meditate on or think about? What else would you say? What other, what other wisdom do you have for people who struggle in the same way you do, or perhaps their partner struggles and they can get a sense of it?

You know, I think there are two words that are new for me.

Okay. Yeah.

But understand that I'm re— I, I grew up being really hard on myself and having like intrinsic motivation.

Okay.

So it wasn't my parents telling me to get good grades. You know, I'm just saying grades because I'm talking about that with my kids. It was me being brutally hard on myself with my grades.

Okay.

So that went into adulthood. So what I learned is there's very little compassion and grace for myself. And if I would screw up, I would beat myself up. If Seth would screw up, I would beat him up. Met with words or meant like not physically. I'm not talking about anything physical.

Yes.

But I wasn't having compassion for myself. And then it was stemming to not having compassion for him.

Yes.

So expecting perfection from myself, expecting perfection from Seth. And Seth would come back at me and say, you know, I'm not perfect. And I would, and it would really wake me up though, because that word perfect has really helped me learn where I'm at with myself. And I'm like, oh wow, you are being so hard on yourself. And then you're doing it to him too. And how is that fair to either of you?

No, right?

So the words compassion and grace and understanding.

Tell me more about grace.

Oh, like, it's okay, give yourself— okay, so there was something that happened with my daughter Ella, and somebody really took something away from her that she probably should have had, and they didn't have all the information. I'm being very vague because I just want Yeah. Everyone to understand that I decided not to be angry in that moment. I was giving these people grace because they didn't know what they were doing.

Okay.

So it's played out more and more in different facets of my life. And I'm seeing it, that word creep in. Yeah. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to be mad because he's doing the best he can in that moment. Give him some grace and understanding that he's trying.

Yep.

Like, where's the love? Like, why, why are you expecting perfection out of both of, both of you in the moment? Like, you're both human beings.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so brilliant because I think we do have these high expectations, whether it's because we were loved that way when we were young or because we want, we wanted to be loved that way and we weren't. And so there's this, this hole or the sense of, you know, needing that kind of perfect love, the perfect mothering or fathering or whatever that may be, and to really get to be human with each other and have grace is huge.

Well, and you said something that I am trying to teach so many women, and that is that what I have learned is if I can love myself and parent myself and give myself what I need, then I'm not looking for it from him. Like, why should he have to fill all the stuff? Like, why is that on him. Like, we— if we do it for ourselves, it feels incredible.

Yes.

And I'm not—

and then not to say that we have to be an island or we don't need anything from them, but it's— it takes the edge off, or that, that part where we get demanding or disgusted by them, or— because we do have some of that, at least internally.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Like expecting him to like praise everything I do. Like, why? Hello?

It's a fun fantasy though. And if you can bring consciousness to that, you could say like, oh my gosh, would you praise me for a minute? Or, you know, would you— will you today— will you just praise everything I do? Versus expecting it and then getting pissed off when it doesn't happen. Oh my gosh.

I mean, I will notice that he will say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for this wonderful dinner. And I'm like, oh wow, that feels like incredible, right? And I'm like, oh, like, I really do love when I feel the love and appreciation. But I can also tell myself, like, you just made a really good dinner for your family.

Good job.

Yeah, kick ass.

You did an amazing job. Yes, I love that. Really? Well, thank you so much for being willing to be the wise woman you are and also vulnerable and humble and honest because we all do it. And I think, you know, this podcast for me was born out of the sense that I had said to myself after I got divorced, I'm not gonna actually be in a, you know, a relationship until I'm, until I won't lose myself. And then I was like, ha, that's funny. As I went along, I was like, I can't practice not losing myself if I'm just keeping myself alone, so therefore I actually have to practice this.

Oh, I love that. I have to practice. We have to practice every day.

Yeah, yeah, we do, we do. And it doesn't have to feel like a chore.

No, no, no, it's natural. Like, I feel like it's just— it becomes a habit, it becomes just a part of your day.

Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Anything else you want to say and then tell us where people can find Winey Palooza?

I just love talking to you. I think we need to do this more often. I told Shayna our next meetup is just coffee.

Coffee talk, just the two of us.

Although if we recorded that, people would love that.

Just think about it.

Um, where can you find me? In all the places. WineyPaloozaMom. On Instagram, Whiny Palooza on Facebook, TikTok, WhinyPaloozaMom. WhinyPalooza.com is the easiest way to find all the stuff. And I have books on Amazon.

Amazing. Do they have different topics, each of those?

Um, so I brought this upstairs so I wouldn't forget. This is the second one, Whiny Palooza Gets Less Whiny, for anyone who actually watches this. This is like all different topics, and the first one is just Whiny Palooza. Again, all different parenting and marriage topics.

Amazing. Thank you.

Yeah, well, thank you for having me.

So good to have you, and definitely check out her blogs and podcasts and all of it. And you know, even if you're a man listening to this, you can get a lot out of understanding, listening to podcasts to hear, or reading the books to hear. This is how women are thinking. This is how I can have more compassion and more grace because I do understand some of those deeper struggles. So thank you so much for what you're doing. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad you joined us for today's episode of Practicing Love. I hope you enjoyed our conversation and gained insight into yourself and your current and past relationships and inspiration for what's possible. If you like what you heard, I'd be so grateful for you to subscribe and write a quick review to help people find us. If you'd like more support in your love life, be sure to get your free copy of my bestselling book, Honest Sex, at shaynejamescoaching.com/free. That's shaynejamescoaching.com/free. And we'll see you next time.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode while you are there.

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