Episode 497: The Gilded Butterfly Effect

No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza! Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene. Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to the lovely Heather Colley. Heather, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Thank you so much, Rebecca Greene, for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Heather is so talented. I've taken a trip into her book over the last couple days, and I just told her I couldn't put it down. I'm going to tell you a little bit about her and why we're talking today. Heather is the author of The Gilded Butterfly Effect, a darkly funny and deeply observant novel about the modern university experience and the messy pursuit of belonging. A PhD student in English literature at the University of Oxford, Heather brings both humor and insight to topics like Greek life, beauty standards, and the quiet loneliness of campus culture. Her award-winning short fiction has been recognized by the Oxford Review of Books, the Hopwood Awards, and the Desperate Literature Prize shortlist. Splitting her time between Oxford and New York, Heather writes about the absurdities and heartbreaks of young adulthood with both compassion and bite. I think that is a perfect introduction. And I think that, you know, I was so funny. I was like, where are you right now?

I had to know where she was.

Yeah, I tend to be back and forth. Yeah.

I was like, okay, is it London or is it— Where is she?

So we are not on the same time right now, so I really appreciate her doing this and taking time with us. And I loved her book. I just told her I couldn't put it down. I soaked it up in 2 days. And I want to start with what inspired you to write The Gilded Butterfly Effect, and where did the title come from?

Yeah, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. The title actually comes from Shakespeare's King Lear. So it's from a scene towards the end of the play where the full quote is something like, "We will all laugh at gilded butterflies." And I've always kind of loved that image. To me, it sort of represents this idea of like a beautiful creature being gilded in a veneer of sort of fakeness, sort of fake gold. Of course, uh, it can be interpreted in any number of ways, but that's always what the line has sort of meant to me. And I think that that's a good representation of the characters in the novel. Uh, it's set at an American university and it follows Stella and Penny who are unlikely friends, and they become entangled in one another's lives and in the Greek life system, so the fraternities and sororities on their campus. And sort of unravel as a result.

I mean, where did you get the— where did you get the story? Like, how did this unravel in your brain?

You know, uh, people have— yeah, people have asked that because it's, it's— it uses a sort of unhinged woman trope everywhere in fiction right now. Um, I've always— even from high school, I remember loving really disturbed fictional women.

Yeah.

Like, I remember reading The Awakening and thinking, I didn't know that you could write women that are unhinged, and I love that. Um, so I went to the University of Michigan, which is a large Greek life school, and, uh, I found the idea of the sorority house just really fascinating. I like claustrophobic settings because I think they make people act strangely and bring out people's worst interests in a lot of ways. And from there, um it sort of just spiraled into the story about these two girls.

I have to tell you, as a mom, I was like, oh my God, like I just kept going, oh my God, through the whole book.

I was like, I have to put this down for a minute.

Yeah, you and my mom both. Uh, I got the exact same reaction from her. I got some concerned texts like, oh, this was an autobiographical, and I was like, no, no, you seem pretty put together to me. Well, I, I do emphasize that, like, I really don't— I see these characters as extremes. They're very hyperbolic. They are sort of what happens under the very worst circumstances. Um, yeah, and I'm very lucky that I don't relate to them on a personal level.

I'm so glad.

Thank you.

When you read Heather's book, you'll understand why I said this. So there's a current interest in the sorority rush process on TikTok.

There's so many things going viral on TikTok, but why do you think the never-before-seen footage is so popular right now?

I think, yeah, I'm on Rush Talk as well. I've ended up there and it's really incredible how much interest there is in that process. Recruitment and sorority life behind the scenes. I think, um, it's a very— it's a niche thing. Not many people will be able to actually be in that sorority house, actually experiencing what it's like. And with anything that, um, is inaccessible, I think there's this grotesque fascination with it, even if you know that it's probably not as great as it might seem. We're just— we're interested in what we don't know.

Um, yeah.

And the glamour of it and the beauty of it, it's enticing if you haven't been involved in it yourself. And I think you look on the comments of these viral Rush Hour videos and people will be like, this is— I have no idea what this is about. I'm from Sweden, but it's so interesting. And I can understand that impulse. You're just fascinated by sort of things that you've never really gotten to experience.

Absolutely. I mean, I have to tell you, my son is in college, so, um, a lot of my friends have kids in college and I hear them talking about sororities and fraternities and I'm like, why does that excite you?

Yeah, like that your child wants to join them.

My son is like not interested and I'm like, oh, thank God.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's tough because I can really understand the impulse. The attraction, especially when you're that age, you know, and you're trying to find your place in the world. It's so easy to get wrapped up in it. But then see them on the news and you hear these horrible things, and maybe you'll read this book and think, oh my God, I hope that my child is not in that.

Exactly. You're like, okay, just get through college. And I always tell my son, stay alive, stay home.

Yep.

Yeah. So You know, I think that there is this, you know, I see this with him because he's a freshman and they just want to belong. I mean, can we talk about the pressure to belong and how you can just like lose yourself in trying to belong?

Yeah, it's a huge, if not, you know, one of the biggest things that people deal with when they go away to university. It's a huge change, um, for a lot of young people. It's the first time that they've experienced real freedom, which can be really overwhelming. And one of the things that the girl— that Stella, who's the sorority girl in the book— she likes being kind of a part of this pack that all are kind of just like her. She says like early in the book, "They all look like me, I look like them, we're all the same." And that's not really literal, but it's how she sees them as a group. Like as an entity. And she, I think, gets security from that kind of collective idea of this group. She doesn't have to focus so much on who she is, which would probably be really intimidating for her.

That's true.

I didn't think about it that way. I will tell you that I worked picture day at school yesterday and my daughter walked up with her friends and they were all wearing the same outfit. And I was like, Oh my God.

Yeah, I remember it though. I remember from middle school, everyone, we were all wearing the same tall Uggs. You know, it starts early.

Starts early. It was— she's in middle school. It starts early.

Yeah.

What do you hope that people learn from the topic of belonging from your book? Because it was such a huge part of it.

I hope that, uh, people get what I like to get from my fiction, which is just to feel less alone. I think if a book has helped you to feel like that because you relate to the characters and perhaps have never seen what you feel on the page before and think that you might be alone in it, and you see it in fiction and realize that you're not and that a lot of these feelings are universal, I think that can be, you know, I think that's the best thing that a book can do. Um, so I hope that, that people feel that way and feel just less alone, less, uh, and feel seen by, by the characters in the book.

Absolutely, I agree with that. Totally agree with that. I mean, so the interesting concept is that they're surrounded by friends and parties, okay, but they still feel unhappy, insecure, and alone. So can you explain that to all of us?

Yeah, that's the crux of Penny and Stella's relationship. When Penny gets to the university, she sees in Stella this person that she wants to be so badly. She thinks if she could just be like Stella, who to her is beautiful and well-liked, and she's always going to parties and she gets attention from boys— if Penny could be like that, she would be happy. Um, and of course you realize as the story goes on that, um, Stella is not happy, and she has all these things that Penny envies but really struggles, um, with, with her own issues and her own traumas. Uh, So it's kind of just about this veneer of belonging. Stella might, to Penny, be someone that belongs more than anyone. But really, she's very alone, just like Penny is.

It's so sad. They all have such insecurities.

And you just want everyone— you just want to wrap everyone up and for everyone to be OK. Yeah, I know.

Unfortunately, I do give my characters bleak lives a lot of the time.

It's more entertaining, right?

I really agree.

I was like, oh no, what's gonna happen next?

I know, I know. And you, you do feel awful doing it to these people, but I, I like, I like reading dark fiction, and I like— I think it does represent reality, so it's what I like to write as well.

So as you took them down this path, this bleak path, I'm just curious from a writing standpoint Like, where were you— where were you coming up with the ideas and deciding where to take it?

It gets increasingly absurd as it goes on. The drugs that they use are increasingly absurd. Uh, the conversations that they have with their psychiatrist get insane.

That's my favorite part.

Yeah, yeah, I loved writing those scenes.

Um, that was the best.

And their choices— like, you're looking at the choices they make and you're like, you couldn't you just keep making the worst decisions that you could make. Um, and it's about the— it's about thinking, it's about creating characters that you know they'll do these sorts of things, will act in these ways. Um, and once you set them up into this sort of system, anything is possible. They can— it can get as absurd as you like. And I like writing absurdist things a lot of the time. I think this is rooted in reality. Some of my other stuff is more absurdist, but I like when characters act in extreme ways, um, and, uh, make very poor decisions all the time.

Yep, yep.

I mean, you're very good at it. Your imagination takes you in great directions.

And oh my god, her working the system with the psychiatrist, I was like, this is so entertaining.

Yeah. Yeah, um, she has a really incompetent psychiatrist, which is just the perfect storm because Stella is a master manipulator. So these two together is just a mess. Yeah, and I— those scenes are really fun. I think with a book like this you need a bit of relief from the, like, depression. So you get this kind of silly adult character that's also in her own way making everything worse, um, and I really like her. Julie?

Well, it's great because it's so intense that you need a little bit of laughter as you're reading it, and I'm like, oh my God, did she just pull that with her psychiatrist?

Yeah. And you know, I think, I think there are— I think this might happen. I don't know, this is all— it does come from my imagination, but I, I think that these things could be possible. It's rooted in, in reality in some ways.

I think you're right. I think you're right. That's the scary part.

Yeah, exactly.

So, I mean, the story was central around the female friendship. And, you know, I'm just curious what you're hoping that we learn about friendship on this journey.

Well, the friendship is very messy between Penny and Stella. And I think it's very true of female friendships in general, especially at that age, that they aren't just friendship. They're also hate and obsession. And envy and wishing destruction on this person and confusion, and also, you know, deep feelings of belonging, um, and real friendship. And all of that can happen within this one relationship for women, uh, and I think, um, complicated female friendships are really important to represent in that way. Very few of them are kind of one note, uh, so The way that this relationship moves around in the novel, um, I think is reflective of a lot of relationships that might happen when you're 20 and in college and don't really know who you are and you don't really know who you want to surround yourself with.

It's true, it's true. I think about myself in my 20s and it gets better from there.

Oh good, thank you. I'm 27 and that is good to hear.

The 20s were messy. I feel like the 20s were messy just trying to figure myself out.

Yeah, I, I see that a lot, you know, in— there's a lot of fiction actually coming out now about being a woman in your 20s, 30s, and I think it's so good because it's sort of— it's— it doesn't have to necessarily be these huge traumatic things, but it's just this ineffable feeling of being 20, 25 and not really knowing what's going on.

Yeah. And then each decade, it's like, I think you get more comfortable in your skin.

That's good, right?

Because I see, I see it in these characters how— and I remember how uncomfortable you are in your skin in your 20s, personally.

Yeah, yeah. And, and I hope for them that the next decades are better.

I hope so. Let's hope the 30s are better for them.

So you touch on so many important topics: body image, addiction, trauma, I mean, what made you decide to confront all of these issues?

I think if I was going to write a campus novel about young women, I do think that these issues are just completely inexplicable from campus life. Um, they're just a part of the fabric of it, and they're difficult issues certainly, but I think it's important that our fiction addresses them head-on. I appreciate fiction that looks at dark and difficult things in life and which communicates them clearly and doesn't necessarily shy away from them. So I tried to do that as well. And I think if you're gonna write an earnest and real depiction of a set of people in a place, you have to also look at the darkness of it too, and those things that we perhaps would rather not think about.

Yeah, I totally agree and appreciate you doing that. I mean, it was just So many important topics. I mean, I'm curious, what kind of conversations are you hoping to spark in people's homes about this book?

Well, I hope that people understand that this is something that we can talk about, first and foremost. Yes. Alone, that it's very common amongst young women, uh, that in a lot of ways these are thoughts and feelings that as women all of us will have at some point in our life, whether we're in a sorority whether we're 20 years old or not. Um, and that I hope that by seeing it represented in fiction, uh, we realize as women that this is normal and that it's okay, and that if we talk about it, it can be a lot easier. Um, and that, that's kind of the first step in confronting it, just feeling like you're not the only person in the world that's ever felt like this.

Yes, excellent point and great message.

I think a lot of people aren't going to feel alone when they read your book.

I mean, let's talk about the mom— listen, the mom who is reading the book, you know, example me, and they have a daughter who's really struggling, you know, confidence, social pressure. What would you want to say to the mom so that she could be helpful?

Well, I think I would say first of all what I said to my mom, which is like, calm down, it's very exaggerated, it's okay, it's fiction, you know, it's supposed to be slightly dramatized. Um, but I would also say, you know, remember that you probably felt like that too. Once you've moved on from it, it can seem really, really dark. Um, if you're in a clear-headed place, these women seem absolutely out of their minds. But in a lot of ways, we've all gone through it. Maybe not to this degree, but it's something that we've all experienced as women. Um, and I think I would say, you know, if you are going through any of these issues, that, that you can talk to me as your mother, and that I get it, and that I won't freak out about the book, about its contents, but that really you're open to talking about these things if they do come up.

Well, and I think that you, you pointed out something so important is that if we freak out, we're chasing our kids away.

So I think—

exactly, exactly. And that's why we don't, you know, no one wants to be like Stella or Penny and say, Mom, like, look at all these issues I'm having. And these girls don't because they don't feel that they can. Um, and it's a very natural reaction. You read this book, I'm sure, as a mother, and you think, oh my God, is this happening?

Really?

Um, because I bet you it is happening. I hate to say this, but like, as much as this came from fiction, I think, you know, maybe it's not fiction to somebody.

Exactly. And it's fictional, but it's very truthful at the same time. It, it could likely happen. It could be happening, probably is. Uh, and so tempering the freakout that you might be feeling inside, and I think just not judging, listening, and the same sort of thing, making people feel less alone if they might be experiencing these kinds of things.

Okay, let's shift to the college-age girls who are having some of these struggles, and like, anything that you can relate to that helped you to give them some advice to get to a better place.

Well, finding the right people. The book is, is in a lot of ways about what happens when you're not with the right people.

I like that. Yeah.

And, and I think that's a, that's a mistake that everyone will make, um, but very much I think in college when there's a real compulsion to make friends really quickly and to stick with those friends and to have this social life that you've always dreamed of in college. But, you know, I didn't meet my sort of favorite group of friends until like my junior year of college.

Oh no.

Well, no, that, that— sorry, sorry to anyone.

That's okay, you can be honest, you can be honest. I need to hear this.

This group, the group of friends that I kind of felt really like me, and I think that also has to do with the fact that I was just older and probably knew who I was as well when I was a junior. I was a freshman. Um, it takes time, and, uh, it's also about just keeping a sense of yourself. These girls get lost in it all very quickly, and it's really easy to do that. But if you can keep a sense of yourself through it all, I think that that can help you to stay grounded.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's such a sense of, you know, now I'm on all these um, college groups on online, you know, Dorm Moms and like all these groups. And the common theme, which is also in your book, is loneliness.

Yeah.

And I have to tell you, I cry at some of the posts that these moms are making because their daughters— I mean, there's definitely a lot more posts. I think girls just talk more. Yeah, you know, but just a lot of kids feeling lonely in college. I think it's such a common theme.

Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a transition that I think is somewhat understated. I think for a lot of people, an expectation— you finish high school, you go to college. But that is a huge, huge transition for a lot of people. I grew up in New York and I went to Michigan, University of Michigan, and I was the first person in my school to ever go to Michigan. I like don't even think I'd ever been in the Midwest. And you just kind of find yourself in this totally new community at a huge school, and you're also 18, which makes you susceptible to all kinds of issues. Um, and, and it seems like everyone's joining these sororities and these fraternities, and everyone's finding their friends, and that could be really isolating.

Yes, absolutely. Um, and some of the kids even started school early Oh right, before school started, like programs, and already made their friends. It's so interesting what I've learned.

Yeah, and then you, you get there and of course you think, oh my God, everyone, everyone's— how is everyone friends? And that can be just so debilitating.

Yes, yes. I think that you have to find some of the right people is what one of your messages is, right?

Yeah. And the, the right people are probably not dealing you drugs out of their bathroom.

Yeah, stay away from those people. Oh my gosh.

So without giving too much away, how did you choose the open-ended ending of your book?

I love open-ended endings. Again, in the fiction that I read, um, I, I just really like endings that are not prescriptive. That gives you enough information for you to, based on who you are and based on how you've interpreted the book, to come up with your own conclusion about what it all meant, about what might happen next. Um, I think that that's one of the most fun parts about reading is things that can be interpreted in different ways. So that was definitely something I wanted to do with my ending. I had the ending like first. I, I wrote very, very early and knew it was all going to work towards what it was. Um, and I think some of the best fiction lets people use their own imagination to fill in the ending.

Well, and as we're talking, I have to go back and read the ending again because I feel like I have to study it a little bit. Like, I was kind of like, oh wait, I need to go back and do that again.

Yeah, there's— I have written it in such a way that it's available to many interpretations, and I don't necessarily subscribe to any of those, but I have set it up so that it can be what you make of it.

I think that's very cool. Um, so as you talk about sorority life in the book, were you part of a sorority? Am I allowed to ask that question?

I, I was. I was in Delta Gamma for a year or two in college. Um, which is why I— again, when my aunts text me like, oh my God, I'd be like, no, no, trust me. Like, my sorority was like known for their GPA, you know what I mean? So it wasn't like this. Um, but I, I did think— I, I'm always thinking about fiction and trying to get ideas. So when I was in the sorority house, I was just like, this is perfect, this is a recipe for disaster in fiction.

Love that. So, um, a true author writing as she's living in a sorority house.

So tell us, like, the benefit— tell us, like, the good stuff. Can you tell us some of the benefits?

Yeah, that's part of what I hope that I do with the book is I, I don't think that sororities are inherently bad or problematic. I, I actually think that women-centric organizations can be really important and helpful for young women. And what I try to say is that it's really in their relationships with the fraternities where all of the issues emerge. And the benefits are very real. You get to school, maybe you don't know anyone, and you now have 50 people that you are a lot of ways forced to make friends with, so you're bound to like some of them. Yeah. And, um, you get a social calendar, you get to go out and have fun and party, which is what a lot of kids, you know, they want to do in college, and that's fair. Um, and you get structure and a sense of belonging, which can really help in a lot of ways, help young women. Um, and so I think there's— yeah, I, I wouldn't want to dissuade anyone, but rather just show what might happen at the extremes.

Yeah. Yeah, it was fun. I mean, you definitely took us on a crazy ride. So, so what's next?

Uh, I have a short story collection coming out in February 2026, which is sort of similar tone, no sorority girls, but Stella does appear again. She tells a story in the next collection.

Awesome.

But you don't have to have read the book in order to, to get the story. Um, so that's got also a lot of unhinged women and ambiguous things if you're into that kind of thing.

I love it. Oh my gosh, you're so creative.

Thank you.

So what didn't I ask you? Anything that you think is important to talk about?

Uh, I, I don't know. I think I, I really just loved your question about the ending, and I think the book is really open to any sort of interpretation. And, um, I'm the sort of writer that really likes for people to interpret it. Like, my dad has a different interpretation to the book than I do, and I just think that's so fun. So I would encourage you know, freedom of thinking about the ending and your own interpretation.

Well, and I want everyone to read the book, but I'm going to tell you now, it's a lot of moms listening, and I want to tell you not to freak out.

This is not hap— this is probably not what your child is doing.

Yeah, to all the moms out there, my mom is among you. Uh, she also freaked out when she read this. It is probably not true. It's very exaggerated, um, and it is fiction.

I know, awesome fiction.

So tell everybody where to find you, where to find the book.

Yeah, you can buy the book wherever books are sold. It's on Amazon, Barnes Noble. Um, you can also get the ebook for your Kindle and the audiobook. And I'm also on social media where I talk about the book and also kind of literature in general. So that's @heathercauleyauthor on Instagram, and that's also my website, which is just heathercauleyauthor.com.

Well, I just want to thank you for not only spending time with us, but also for sharing your— all of your stories with us, because you are very talented.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that, and I appreciate you embracing the chaos of the book. Love it.

I loved it. This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Whiny Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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