Episode 504: One-Stop College Counseling

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No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza!

Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone. This is Rebecca Greene for the Whiny Pluza Podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to the amazing Lori Kopp Winegarten. And Lori, I forgot to tell you, it's Winey Palooza. So Winegarten is actually easier for me than what I thought.

Perfect. Yep.

So Lori is, um, what does CEP stand for, Lori?

It's a Certified Educational Planner. And only about 2% of people in our industry have it. It's a board certification. Nobody wants to take the exam. So literally 2% worldwide of people in this business have their board certification.

Oh, see, she's amazing already. Lori is the president and chief educational consultant of One Stop College Counseling in Marl— I should have asked you how to pronounce that. She's in New Jersey. I can't say her town.

It's Marlboro, but I work with students throughout the whole country.

She's a certified educational planner with decades of experience, and she guides students and families through every step of the college admissions process. From finding the right academic and social fit to crafting standout applications. She serves as a commissioner for AICEP, the accrediting body, body for educational consultants, and is a professional member of multiple national organizations. So I told you she's super impressive. She's going to help us today. I'm really selfishly excited based on where I am in my life. And, um, I just want to start with like what inspired this career for you. This is a really cool career.

Well, first let me say thanks, Rebecca, for inviting me to the show. I'm very excited to be here. I love to talk about college, and I think your Winey Palooza is an amazing podcast.

Thank you.

Okay, so what inspired it? I was— I guess I was kind of a weirdo in high school because when I was in high school, that was not to date myself, but we didn't have the internet, there was no Google, nothing. And I was obsessed with colleges. So my parents had— I grew up in New Jersey. My parents had said to me, okay, you can go anywhere 4 hours north to 4 hours south of where we live. So basically it was like Boston to Washington, and, and that was fine with me. But yet I was reading every guidebook on colleges. I knew so many of the colleges in the U.S., even though I knew I wasn't going to be able to apply there. I was just obsessed with learning about colleges and how admissions work. So when I got into college, I attended the University of Pennsylvania. When I arrived, I immediately signed up to be a tour guide. I— there was something called admission sitting, which is no longer a term, but we— I would sit in the admission office and talk to prospective students and parents Amazing. Yeah. And I— and as soon as I graduated, I signed up to be an alumni interviewer. So I started to— I was so— anything with admissions interested me. It wasn't at the time, this wasn't really a career, and it wasn't something I would have even thought about. I was a marketing major and French, and I really went into business right after college. But on the side, I was still reading college books. So I was always interested. Once I had children, I took bunch of years off just to focus on raising them. I didn't want to work at all for the first few years. And then little by little, I started to think, what am I going to do? My, my old job in marketing was very time-intensive, travel-intensive. I wouldn't be able to take off to drive my kids to dance lessons or basketball lessons or anything. So I started thinking— I actually connected with both my business school and my undergraduate they had free career planning for life, which many colleges offer. I spoke to both of them, and one of them— they were asking me so many, they're like a huge variety of questions. And one of them said to me, my business school, um, career office said to me, you know, you have a passion for college admissions. You should take a month or two off. I mean, off of— I wasn't working, but like just set aside a month or two, go to the library, dig deep into this profession, and see if it's something you could do. And I was kind of aback. I'm like, really? Like, I just— I knew it was becoming more and more— it was emerging as a— yeah, but I didn't really see myself starting that business. And yet I kept thinking about it and thinking about it, and then I took the plunge and I opened. And honestly, there was so much demand for it at the time, and still not a lot of counselors, that within our first year we were already at capacity. We were just filled. Wow. So yeah, it's just— and I remember also, like, people were people were saying, oh, you're going into this, you should read this book or that book. Like, I've read it, I read it when it came out because I've had this long-standing interest in college admissions. So I was— my husband laughed, he said like, wow, you're going to make your hobby into a business. Uh, and that's what I did. And it's—

and that's the best, that's the best kind of career because it's taking our passions and making something out of them. I think it's what you did, it's exactly right, exactly what I did, exactly what I did. All I wanted to do was become a mom, that's all I wanted to do my whole life, and I love talking to moms. It's like the best thing. So yes, I did the same thing.

It's funny, and it works, you know. When you're doing what you like, it doesn't really feel like work.

No, not at all, not at all. I mean, this is like such— so enjoyable for me. Like, I can't believe I get to talk to you today.

No, it's really back at you.

Yeah, so, you know, it's very overwhelming. I mean, I have talked to so many parents about this and, you know, like where, where to start when you're feeling so anxious and overwhelmed. Can you get them started? Yeah.

So I think what happens is uncertainty creates anxiety and this college process is filled with uncertainty. There's— everyone would like a formula like you do this, this, and this, and then you get into these colleges and there is no formula. There's no way to predict. And I think that fuels the stress and the anxiety. And what I try to do is focus on what we can control. Parts of this process are out of our control. For example, the colleges put out institutional priorities, not to the public. People always ask, "What are the priorities?" Like, that's not public information. But when they put out the priorities, occasionally I will hear some of them from colleges 'cause they're really a hot top priority and they're looking for certain students. But normally those priorities change every year. You can't control that. If they're looking for oboe players and you play the trombone, you're kind of out of luck for that particular college for that year. Yeah, so we don't focus on what we can't control. We focus on what we can control. So we can control the classes you take, for the most part, the grades you get, again, for the most part. You can't always help it if a teacher says like, I'm not giving anyone an A, but you— right, which happens. But we really try to focus on the parts, on the aspects of this that are in your control. What activities you do, what kind of opportunities you try to take advantage And I tell parents, try to stay off social media, like don't, because there's so much misinformation. I can't even tell you how many parents come to me and say, I heard this. I'm like, oh my goodness, that is not how college admissions works. So by focusing on what you can control and then also taking it one step at a time. So the entire process, looking at it from, I'll start with 8th graders, It's daunting. It's so much to learn. So what we try to do is just literally take it one step at a time. So we're not picking colleges in 9th grade that their student's going to apply to. It's silly. We don't have their grades. We don't have their test scores. We don't have their level of extracurricular activity involvement yet. So it's literally one step at a time. And that way we try to handle— make it more manageable and less stressful for families.

That's helpful. I, I do think we get overwhelmed if we think of too many steps at one time. So I like that. And I'll tell you, I have a freshman in college, I have a junior in high school, and I have an 8th grader. And the 8th grader gets asked so many questions because of her siblings, and she's like, people, I'm 13.

I know, it's, it's crazy. And what we sometimes find though, when, when— this is interesting— but we'll have, if we have a sophomore and a senior, we're already having our sophomores to look at colleges, not to— not their list, but just to get an idea. Do I like a big school? Do I like a small school? Do I like a rural school? Do I want a school with school spirit? We want them to get an idea. But often the 10th grader feels like, oh, it's my sibling's time, they're the senior, so they're going to the colleges and not paying a lot of attention. Oh, we're telling them, no, this is your time too, just because your sibling's ahead of you. So for an 8th grader, no, I'd say relax. Yes, let it go. Let your, your older siblings deal with college. But by the time they're— we're asking students to visit just 2 colleges in the spring of 9th just to start to get a feel of what they're aiming for and what they're looking for. So when they have an older sibling, sometimes that is an issue where they're just like pushing back and like, I'll just let them go through it. And then by the time they're a junior, they haven't seen enough colleges or they don't really know what they're looking for. So But an 8th grader, yes, that's too young, too young to be picking colleges.

Yes. Well, and thankfully Ella was paying attention on all of Max's tours. So she was, she was honed in on it. So she was on it. She was definitely on it. So I'm glad that she was so focused because I know a lot of kids, you know, and I'll ask you about this, a lot of parents, my kids are very into college. They want to research, they want to tour, they want to be on it. And then there's the parents who are talking to me whose kids are not interested. And they can't get them interested. Any advice to those parents?

So I don't deal with a lot of those. Most of my students are pretty motivated and focused on selective colleges. But I think that sometimes they're really feeling the pressure and often it is from the parents. So sometimes parents need to step back. Like we'll do things where we'll say to parents, not, not even freshman or sophomore year, but junior year, we'll say, you know what, let's limit conversations for college for your particular families to once a week. You could have your Sundays or your Saturdays or your Wednesday mornings, whatever time works for you, where you can ask a few college questions. Because to constantly— yes, mentioning college creates so much stress that sometimes the students are pushing back and saying like, I, I don't care, I'm not dealing with this now, I have too many other things. Kids are busy, teens are busier than ever, so they don't really want to feel that pressure. And parents often Sometimes there's pressure when they don't even realize they're putting pressure on their students because they're showing like, they'll say like, "Oh, did you hear our next door neighbor got into MIT? Wow, that's so impressive." Well, it is impressive and it's great for that student, but that puts pressure on your own child because you're showing them you value that. So you have to be really careful of the messages you're conveying. And we tell students, We want parent— we want them to celebrate every acceptance. So even— so a lot of students right now are getting some of the rolling admission decisions and they're, they're likely schools or their target schools. They're not the school, their top choice school for them. It doesn't matter. They need to celebrate every acceptance. It means that somebody read their application and valued their, their accomplishments, saw their potential. That is worthy of a celebration, even if it's not their top choice school. If it's on their list, it's a school they might end up with, celebrate it. So we really try to push that.

That's great. That's great advice. So I'm going to tell everybody not to do what my son did, and then I'm going to ask you what they should do. My son— I'm not letting my daughter do this— my son had, was zoned in on Cornell, like only, like that was his top school. That's the only school he wanted. We pushed him to pick other schools as second and third choices. But the stress waiting to hear from the one school was hor— it was a horrible process. So, so tell them, don't do it like that. I mean, I'm— I, I say prayers and thanks that it worked out, but let me tell you, it was a hor— it was hard. It was really hard. So tell them what to do better. That was not the right way. What is the better way?

Oh my goodness. Yes. I mean, he's was probably very qualified, but also there's some luck in getting in. And thank goodness it worked out, um, because it's— it can be devastating. So what we try to do is focus on the qualities that colleges offer that you're looking for. So if you like a school like Cornell, we get at what, what are the things that you like about it? Let's find other schools that also have those qualities. So we spend a lot of time building the list. We actually go through two list meetings like a preliminary list and then months later, a final list to make sure that everything aligns. Because kids, you know, they're kids. Their brains are not fully developed. You know, that whole prefrontal cortex, 25 years old is when their logic is developed. So we'll have situations where I'm looking through somebody's list and let's say they want to major in chemistry and all of a sudden I see on their list NYU Stern and I'm like, what? That's a business school. They're like, but it's very prestigious. Like, okay, so you'd get in, you'd be excited they picked you, and then you'd be studying business, not chemistry. We've seen it with Rutgers for the pharmacy program. I'll be— because Rutgers, you can apply to several programs, and I'll say, are you interested in pharmacy? Well, not really, but it's so prestigious. It's the most prestigious Rutgers school. Like, okay, it's 6 years. 6 years, you're coming out with a PharmD. It's a fabulous diploma, and you can work in the pharmacy industry. Are Is that what you want? So yeah, not, not the best way. You don't want to just pick on prestige. So we'll literally take a school like if somebody says they want Cornell, we'll find out what the qualities are and then we'll suggest other reach, target, and likely schools with those qualities so that if you don't get into your reach school or even if you get a deferral in the ED round and then you're still hopeful for the regular round, we want to make sure you have options. We actually tell our students to try to get all their applications applications in by December 1st, because what happens is, let's say they hear on December 12th that they did not get a Cornell or whatever their top choice was, they have 2 weeks left in a depressed, upset, low self-esteem mode to write all their other essays. We don't want that. So we want all the applications written beforehand, and then honestly, if somebody doesn't get into their ED, there's also that option of changing their regular decision school to an early decision 2. Cornell doesn't have that, but many schools offer early decision 2, and that's another good option. Colleges always let you change it because they love their ED applicants, because they're committed to them. But yeah, you want to make sure you don't just have one dream school. All the schools on your list should be— yeah, an answer like, if, if I didn't get this school, would I still go to this school? And I will tell you, after admission results come out, I get phone calls from all over the country from people I did not know, did not work with their student, and they'll say like, my son or daughter only was accepted to one school and it's not a school they like. What do we do? I'm like, why was it on their list if it's not a school they like? It might not be their first choice school, but every school on your list should be a school that you wouldn't be on the floor crying if you had to go there. So yeah, you're— I'm glad. I'm so glad it worked out for your son. Definitely risky. And there, there were probably 10 times as many kids as yourself, like, who didn't get their Cornell ED and then were crushed. We, we don't want crushed students. We want to turn this into more of— we want them to be able to celebrate where they get in. So all of those schools on the list should have something that excites them. And if it doesn't, keep looking. Find other schools that do excite you. So I know for, for example, like, um, my own two children who are in their 20s now really loved Lehigh University. It wasn't their first choice. It's a fantastic school. But both of them said, and separately, they're two years apart, they didn't, my daughter didn't really remember what my son had said. And I didn't even think she'd like Lehigh when I took her. I thought she'd prefer, we were looking at different categories at that level. And she said, no, mom, I really like the school. If I don't get into my top choice school, like that's a school for me. And of course for many of our students, Lehigh could be a top choice school, but my, my own two were just— had different schools in mind. But they both thought like, oh, I could really thrive at Lehigh. That would be a school where I know I'd be happy. It's balanced academically, socially, has the school spirit, not too large. Neither one wanted a large school. So you need to find those Lehighs, those schools. And, and I hate to kind of use Lehigh because it is a highly— it is a selective school, but I'm just giving it as an example of, you know, find schools that you might not be your first or second choice, but that you're going to thrive that and be happy at.

150%, yes. So as far as ED goes, um, so it's early decision for people who don't know, um, can you explain a little bit about what it is in case people don't know what it is? And do you recommend that everybody has one?

So it is— so you're asking somewhat of a controversial topic, but I'm going to give you my take on it, which is not everybody's take on it.

Okay. Okay.

So let me first backtrack and say what it is. Early decision is when you decide that a school is your first choice and that if they accept you, you will attend. You— your child, the teenager, signs a contract, which probably isn't totally binding because they're under 18. So then the parents also sign the contract, and then the high school counselor signs the contract, and they're saying— it says basically, if you accept me, I will attend, and I will also remove all my other applications. There is, there is a way out if financially you need more money than the college will give you, but it is not easy to get out that way for most colleges. You would have to really prove that you can't afford it because most of the— all of the colleges in the early decision round will meet the financial aid they would have given you if you hadn't committed to them. So, and in some cases they give you more, so it's It's not easy to get out. You don't want to use that as the strategy is of, I'll get in and then if I change my mind, I'll get out. That's not what you do. If you assign an ED contract, plan to go there if you get in. So in terms of should it be offered, that's the controversial part. There are a lot of counselors and admission offices that don't like ED. ED helps, and the— and the— if you read the newspaper, you'll hear them say ED is totally college-driven, focused. It helps them. The truth is that's not really true. It does help the student. It— by signing that contract and giving away your right to know where else you would have gotten in, if you are accepted to that ED school, you are typically tripling your chances of admission. It is a big advantage to the student. So when, when they push back, like the media pushes back and says it only helps the colleges, it's not really true. It does help the students get in. There are some disadvantages. Mainly, you don't get to hear where else you would have gotten in, and you don't get to compare financial aid awards if you're going for financial aid. Yeah, but many colleges will actually, and not all, but many will say if you tell them, I'm thinking of committing to your school, but I'm worried about finances, can you give me an idea of what I would get? Many colleges will do it. Some colleges will even do it for merit awards. They'll say, we're going to tell you right now, if you apply ED, you're going to get $30,000 a year in merit, and they stick to that. And sometimes they even increase it when you actually apply ED. So there, if you— so in terms of, do my students do it? Yes, almost every one of my students applies ED to increase their Some schools don't offer ED. So for example, if your first choice is Harvard or Stanford or, or Notre Dame or Caltech, they don't offer ED. They have a restricted early action. So then they— the student wouldn't do ED because there is no ED. They would do the restricted early action, which is— the rules are slightly different. But yes, my students want to get in. We want to let them have, you know, get get, get a successful response. So I do encourage ED unless there's an extenuating circumstance where they can't do it. So every year there may be one or two who just can't do that for whatever reason. It's not always financial. There's sometimes there are other reasons, but normally the vast majority of my students will do ED because they want to increase their chances of admission. Even, even tripling your chances if the admit rate is 15% 85% are still not getting the decision they want, but it's better than not— it's better than 95% not getting the decision, right? Right.

I mean, it's— it was easy for Max. Ella's having a much harder time. It's hard to pick your ED school, so that's a whole nother conversation.

Yes.

So you've got your grades, you've got your activities, you've got your ACT and SAT scores, you've got all your internships and work and I mean, what really matters? Does it all matter? I mean, what are your thoughts? I mean, there's just so much that goes into it.

I know. And again, that adds to the uncertainty, which creates the anxiety because people want a formula. What percent is this? What percent is that? Um, I will tell you that a very quoted percent, because you don't get a lot of percentages from admission officers, but they often will have said to me the teacher and counselor recommendation letters count for about 20%. So that is huge, absolutely a huge percent for that. But in terms of does it all count, yes and no. Most colleges these days are holistic, and they often tout— like, when you go visit, you will hear holistic. My son went to Princeton, and I will tell you, one of the questions on the application, there were these short answers, and it said, give us the first— at the time it said, give us the first word that pops into your head. and one of the questions is, "What is your favorite word?" and he just blurted out, "Holistic," and I cracked up because a year ago he wouldn't have even known that word, but all you hear from the colleges is, "We're holistic, we're holistic," and my husband was in the room. He said, "Don't use that." I said, "No, totally use that because it's going to make them laugh because they know that they don't stop talking about holistic." So, most colleges say they're holistic, meaning they take take everything into account, everything about you, your grades, your scores, what high school you go to, do you have— what, what are your big accomplishments? And then some schools, are you a legacy or not? Some schools, are you going to play sports for us or not? You know, there's a lot that goes into it. But in reality, I think the word holistic is, is a little bit misunderstood because the truth is you're at college to get an education. And the first thing they will look at is the academic profile, which would include the rigor of your courses, the grades you get, and your test scores if you're using test scores. That's a whole other conversation. But if you are not academically qualified, the holistic part kind of disappears. So for example, let's say you were applying to Cornell, since that was where your son went— is. And you, um, you had some amazing awards and extracurriculars, but you had straight Cs, or you had straight As but never took an honors, an AP class, an IB class if it's offered in your school. So, because I know someone's going to say, what, that's not offered in my school, does that— if it's not offered in your school, you don't need to worry about it. But if it's offered and you choose to get— take the easiest classes and get your straight As, Cornell is going to look at that transcript and say, sorry, like you might have some other amazing things and you might be the kindest person in the whole country, but you can't— you won't succeed here because our academics are too rigorous. So they're not going to look at you holistically. You're kind of out of the running. But if you are in the running because you have grades that show and courses that show you could succeed there, that's when the process becomes completely holistic. Long gone are the days of straight A's and perfect SAT or ACT scores means you're getting into Harvard. That long gone, decades gone. You need to show that you're going to contribute in other ways. So they look very carefully at what have you done in the past in your high school. You don't have to continue the same activity that you did in high school in college, but they're going to look for leadership, initiative, creativity, creativity accomplishments. They're going to see what, what did you do in the past that shows us you have the skills to come onto our college campus and succeed both academically and extracurricularly. So mostly it's holistic.

Yeah, holistic is perfect. That's the perfect word. But I think that, you know, what I've been telling children— I am not an admissions counselor. I will tell you, I, I, I will get behind that I helped my son, but that does not give me any credit, people. I do, I do tell people people like to showcase themselves. Like, what makes you— what's your character? What makes you unique? You talk about showcasing your character. Can, can we talk about what that, what that is and what that looks like?

Yes. So character has become an important part of the matrix in many admission offices right now. It's been that way. I started hearing it probably, I'd say, maybe 8 years ago, where it started to actually make it into the grading system of many of these colleges, and they shared their which, I mean, it's unbelievable. You actually see it now. The last year or two, the words kind of switched. It's still character, but I'm hearing more about likability. And I'm hearing— so colleges, like, there are 3 or 4 main things when they're talking. When I'm talking to them, they're saying, well, first we're making sure that they academically can succeed, because like I said, very important. You don't want to admit someone who can't do the work because then they'll fail, and that's not what you— you don't know— that doesn't serve anybody well, the college or the student. Then they'll look at activity-wise is this student going to make an impact on our campus? Are they going to be in their room studying all day? Are they going to be outside doing other things? But then the third one, depending on the college, is— right now I'm hearing a lot of, do we like this student? Is this student likable? In other words, will people want to be their roommate? Will people want to have dinner with them? Will they say things in class that are acceptable? Because there's there's a lot of dissension right now among students, sometimes on college campuses. So likability can be measured in many ways. There are— colleges have actually been surveyed to figure out how they're measuring this. So sometimes it's in an interview. Sometimes— not all colleges do interviews, though. Sometimes it's in the teacher recs or the counselor recs. They will talk about how the student is so liked because they're always there to help a student who's struggling or a student with a disability or, you know, whatever it might be. Sometimes it's coming across in the essays. The student's writing an essay about something that they did and they're getting like ability points, character building points. Nobody wants to admit students that aren't— that don't have good character. Who would want that? But it's— and they've never wanted that, but it's just becoming more of a factor in admissions. And I will give an example, a real-life example. Of course, I won't name our student, but we had a student who had— this year— who had a great essay, and then somebody got a hold of the essay, probably the parents, but somebody got a hold of it, and that student sent us back another version. And this is a very likable student who we feel like the student's character is— there's nothing wrong with it. It's actually a really good person. But in the essay, the student now became arrogant, basically bragged through the whole essay. And I actually told the student, if I were in admissions, I would never admit you based on this essay. You— I don't want to go into the specifics, but he— the student— I didn't want to say the gender, but the student basically was coming across as, I'm the best, everybody knows it, and you should know it too.

Oh no.

Yeah, it was really—

it was—

I don't know what, what they were thinking when they wrote this essay. But anyway, they reverted back to, to an essay that, no, that showed who they really were. But I think what happens is sometimes students are trying so hard to impress that they think that they're supposed to brag. And one of the problems may be that many high schools hand out what they call a brag sheet, where they're trying to get to know what should we write about you in the recommendation letter. Students see the word brag and think, let me brag. Remember to say I'm the best, highest GPA in the class. Like, no, you don't want to brag on the brag sheet. So character is important. Likeability is a factor that is being measured. You want to be your authentic self, but honestly, most students are likable. You want to show that. So, so don't be arrogant. Don't brag. And one way, one thing that we saw in many essays this year was we're seeing students keep mentioning I this, you know, I, the letter I, instead of we. Colleges want to know you can collaborate, you could work with other people. So we is always more a better way to address what you've done. If you have a major accomplishment, it will go on your honors list. But talk about we, how you work together as a team. They don't just want I, I, I, I.

Wow, wow, that's such good advice. I'm just thinking, you know, I'm gonna make my daughter listen to this podcast. So, so Ella just wrote about, um, being the student director and how being part of the team and, and having that accomplishment as a team was just such an incredible experience for her. So that is such good advice. I'm taking that to heart because like she just saw it with the play and being a team. So I love that so much. I mean, tell us parents, what, what, what are our common mistakes? What are us parents doing wrong?

You probably have a— you know, I think parents love their children, and I think parents are trying to do what's best for their children. But again, sometimes the anxiety takes over and they're putting they're not even realizing the pressure they're putting on the student to, to get in. We have parents— so I will tell you, my very first year in this business, we were a little different than many of the counselors in that we invite parents into the meetings, almost all meetings. We want parents there to hear the advice that we're giving. I want parents to know what I'm advising so that they can help reinforce it. But there are a few meetings we don't invite parents to, for and I'm going to tell you one of them is the essay meeting. My first year in the— in this, you know, with One Stop, um, most things ran beautifully. But in the essay meeting, we had the parents in there and they were kind of taking over the meeting, saying like, oh, I think they should write about this. And I'd be thinking, oh, that's not a good topic, or this, you know. They don't really understand how the essay works. And students themselves were telling me that year My parents should not be in this meeting. They are ruining the meeting. I'm not getting a word in. They're picking topics I don't want to write about. And from that day on, we do not have parents in that meeting. We do let them see the essay if, if everyone agrees they can see the essay, which most, most students have no problem with it. Occasionally there's a sensitive topic and they ask their parents not to look at the essay, but normally parents are looking at the essay. When they start rewriting the essay, that's when I I'm done. Like, I have a rule. This is— I am working with the student. I am allowing— I am sharing, not even allowing, I'm sharing my comments with you. I want you to be able to provide some advice, but not rewriting. It sounds like a 40 or 50-year-old adult, some of these essays. Colleges will mark, like, they will mark, looks like a parent wrote it. Even in letters to them, like, if a student visits a college and then emails the admission officer to say, I just want you to know I had a great visit. I have a follow-up question about the math department or something. Um, sometimes those letters are written by parents and the students send them to me and I'll be like, who wrote this letter? It sounds like a lawyer wrote this letter. It sounds like, like it's unbelievable. And we'll send it back and it, it was the parent who wrote the letter, or who the student wrote the letter, the parent rewrote it. So So, as a parent, you definitely want to make sure you're not overstepping. You want to encourage your student. You don't want to take over the process. Plus, when you get to college, I'm sure you saw with your son, you don't really know what's going on, right? Like, you don't know if he's sleeping when you want him to sleep, he's eating well, if he's going to every class. Kids need to learn to take charge of their life. And to be proactive. And high school is the perfect time. So there's always room for parents, but there's not— parents shouldn't be running the process. And it's something that I email to parents often. Like, like, they'll say, like, I want to tell you how my student's interview went. I'm like, well, were you in the interview? Well, no. But I'm like, can you have your teen tell me how the interview went? So I would say The main thing is, yeah, we're a lot.

I know we're a lot. I try, I tone myself down. I'm like, I'm like, no, no, no, this is good. This is good. You do not touch this. This is good. Don't fix it.

Yeah, I, you know, so don't write their essays. Don't rewrite their essays. Try not to listen to too other many other people who are, you know, in the know. You, you have a counselor for a reason, and if you're not hiring a private counselor, that's fine. Use your high school counselor. But somebody who's in the know. Don't, don't go on social media and listen to all— I can't, right? One time somebody said to me, oh, join— I don't remember which Facebook group it was— you'll see all these parents giving advice. So I went on, this was several years ago, and I was horrified. Like, the amount of misinformation was astounding. And I said to my friend, I cannot be on this page, it's like I'll have a panic attack. I know, right? It's really crazy. And they'll say such definitive statements like, if you do this, your child will never get in.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

It's true.

It is. So I, I feel, let your child lead the process. If you go on a tour, ask your child first, what did you think of the college? What did you like? What didn't you like? Then absolutely give your opinion, not in such a strong way that it overrides everything your teen just said, but just say like, oh, the one thing I was concerned about is, did you notice this. Or the one thing I really loved is, did you notice, did you notice how many kids were walking in groups on the sidewalk and not walking alone looking stressed? Or how many kids were wearing the college name? Like, like with your son, are kids wearing, you know, Cornell sweatshirts? They're happy, they're proud to be at the school. When you see none of that, when you don't see kids in groups speaking and talking and no school spirit with the t-shirts or sweatshirts, you start to wonder, like, are kids happy here? So you can definitely add your insights. Everything counts, and people see different things. Teens definitely look at a college differently than parents, but let your teen first express what they thought of the college, then add your points. And don't make it so definitive, like, well, I don't like this college because blah blah blah blah, because sometimes you're, you're now crossing out a college that your child might actually thrive at.

You're full of so much good advice. Can I be selfish for a minute and talk about the adjustment? I want to be selfish and— okay, you can say I don't want to talk about this topic. Okay, he's off to college, he's a freshman. I mean, what an adjustment for like the whole entire family.

Any—

I mean, I know you went through it. Any advice on—

yeah, it It's so— what we do with our students, we have a meeting right before they leave about how to manage the process. And one of the things we do say is, please keep in touch with your parents because you are off to this new adventure as a student and you are busy. And you're not just in classes, you're meeting with professors, you're going, you're joining clubs, you're having long dinners with your friends, and you, you're in your whole new world. Your parents are left home thinking of you in their old world and wondering, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are your classes okay? Are they too hard? Are they too easy? Um, are you happy? Are you healthy? And they have no— very limited contact sometimes. So what we do is we say, figure out a communication system with your parents to make sure that they're kept in the loop. You don't need to call them every day, and maybe don't say— like, the worst thing you could do is say, I'll call you at Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays at 5 o'clock because you know all of a sudden someone's gonna drag you out to, you know, an event and you won't be there at 5 and your parents waiting by the phone going, what happened to my kid? Oh my God, I can't even tell you how many times parents call the campus police and the campus police are like rolling their eyes. They find the student and they're like, call your mommy, and the student's usually at a party or they've told me that in front of all their friends. Yeah, they never end up like the police at some of the schools have said they never end up getting the call from the same parent twice because the kid is so mortified that they were like, call home in front of all their friends. They make sure that they're in communication. With my own son, we had— he was truly busy, and I was used to him, if I texted him, texting me back within minutes, not when he went to school. So we had us— and then he'd sometimes forget. He'd think and do his, I'll call her tonight, and then forget. So we had a signal like, are— I don't know, I'm not saying this is the best one, but I would just say, are you alive? And he knew if he saw that, he needed to just say yes, but I'm in class, or I'm— so I didn't use it often, but if I really couldn't reach him, he knew, like, uh-oh, my mom's getting worried. No, but in terms of— yeah, I mean, you have to, because parents are— kids don't realize the parents are sitting home going, why haven't I heard from them? Why haven't I heard from them? And I didn't— a lot of parents track, I know, on the phone. I didn't track my son, so I couldn't say, like, oh, 'Oh, I see he's in class.' So that's, you know, they definitely need to have some kind of signal. Even when I was in college, my college roommate, her parents had her call twice a week at a certain time, and inevitably she was busy at that time. They would go crazy thinking something happened to her because she was normally very reliable, but sometimes you forget because you're right, because you're busy. Or something ran over an extra half hour and you don't call. So that's one thing, they need to set that up with you in advance. But in terms of adjusting, I think sometimes students don't realize that they have a lot of support. A school like Cornell, it's a fabulous school, but it's the largest Ivy League. It's a large school, not as large as University of Michigan, but it's much larger than your typical private college or university. So the support is there, but you need to be proactive and reach out for it. So we tell students, do not be ashamed or afraid to get peer tutoring or see your professor. Do not be afraid to go to counseling. The amount of students using the free counseling— only time in your life that you get free counseling— the amount of students is very high, the percentage-wise. But not everybody knows it because people don't say like, oh, I'm going to a counseling appointment to talk about my roommate issues. So people aren't aware of how many students are using that. Use it. It's free and it can be helpful because they hear every single problem that occurs. They've heard it all. They can help. So I think as your student, you want to tell a student, be proactive. If you're struggling, get help. Talk to your advisor. Every college assigns a student at least one advisor. The students who know how to make things happen and to get the help they need adjust more quickly. If there's a roommate problem, and there often are, talk it out. If it doesn't work, go to the RA. If the RA isn't helpful, some are great, some are not so great, they're there for the free dorm, go above them. But work out your problems, don't sit with them and suffer because that's when things start to spiral and all of a sudden you're not doing well academically, you're not happy at the school. One thing happens in many schools with fraternity and sorority rush. They don't get what they want. They feel it's a personal judgment, which in some ways it was. It just might not be a strong— it might not be the right personal judgment, but people are saying like, oh, I don't like you, I'm not going to have you. It's crushing for students. Um, a lot of students have problems with that. Work it out. Go talk to people about it. Um, maybe your friends will help, but maybe your friends are too close to the situation, so go seek the help of the advisors. There's a lot of research that having a mentor in college helps you in every way. So even if your mentor is just someone— like, we had a student— I'm going to go back to NYU Stern for a minute. It's a very competitive environment. Not everybody thrives in that environment. I had a student freshman year, we had two students there in Stern last December. I write to all my college freshmen in December and say, how are you doing? Any surprises. One of them said, it's exactly like you said, Lori, the academics are good, we're in a great city, but it's very, very competitive. Kids are cutthroat. The other student said, basically, it is what you said, Lori, but what I've done is I made friends with a bunch of the seniors who don't feel they're in competition with me as a freshman, and they are helping me so much. And he was telling me, like, they're helping him with internships, with his resume, everything. Everything. So he— wow— figured out a way to get help from someone who wasn't a peer and competing with him. And then of course I told the other student, you know, you might want to reach out to some of the upperclassmen. They're not going to see you as a threat if you're feeling it's too competitive. So those are the things.

Yeah, so much good advice. You have so much good advice. I feel like I've asked you so many things. Do you feel like there's anything Is there anything important that I didn't tell you that I didn't ask you?

Um, I guess the only other thing I'd add is there have been a lot of changes in admissions. So like sometimes parents will say like, oh, we didn't go to school in this country. We're so behind in learning, you know, how to navigate this. And I'll say, no, you don't understand. Even the parents who went to school here in the US are having trouble navigating because it's a different landscape. It changes rapidly. Sometimes I feel like it's changing daily. It's, it's really— I'll get emails from colleges daily and they're like, oh, we're doing this now, we're doing this now. Like, it's very hard to keep up. But I just, I think one of the changes that I, I have to mention is demonstrated interest. There are so many colleges that are tracking your interest because as students apply to more and more colleges, colleges are having a difficult time figuring out if they'll attend or not if admitted. And that number, their yield, of, of all the kids they accept, what percent attend, that's called their yield. It's so important to them. So there are a couple— some colleges truly don't track interest. So if you visit 5 times, they may question, why'd you visit us 5 times? But it won't help you get in. Don't visit any college 5 times, it's too much. Um, no, because you— we have parents who are like, how often Yeah, twice if it's your top choice and you're going back to consider ED, go twice. You don't need to do— you know, once is more than sufficient normally. Um, so these colleges want to know if you're interested. So the colleges that don't track it, don't track it. There's still— if you get to know their admission officer through a college visit where you met them or when they came to your high school, they're still— that's not demonstrated interest per the the typical definition, but they'll still fight harder for you if they know who you are and they like you and think you'd be an asset to the community. Even if they don't track interest, they will fight harder for you in committee. But many colleges, about 75%, track interest, and many of them use it in admissions. I would say since COVID ended, more are using demonstrated interest. They want to know, if we admit you, will you attend? So you want to still be authentic, and you don't want to tell a college that dislike, like, I want to come here. That's silly. But you need to make connections with the schools that interest you, especially if they're using interest in their process. So if they offer an interview, take it unless there's a, you know, unless there's a reason that you shouldn't interview, which is rare. If they— even if they downplay, like, oh, you don't need to interview, they sometimes downplay it because they don't have enough spots for everybody. If it's offered, take it. If you have the chance to visit the campus, visit the campus. Don't just do the obligatory tour and information session. Talk to students in the student union. Sit in on a class. Not only is it demonstrating interest, but it's things you could write about in your essay when they ask, why do you want to go here? You can say, well, this really excited me when I learned about this through my tour guide Cindy, or when I sat in on this class with this professor and then spoke to him afterward, I learned X, and that interests me because of why. So you want to get specific because they are tracking it. They want to know. And I will say, like, when I said that schools are saying they have 3 main things— will you survive academically, extracurricularly, are you likable— the 4th one I'm hearing a lot is, will we yield them? Will we get them if we accept them? They hire outside companies to run numbers on this to figure out what is the percent chance chance that you will attend if we admit you, and it's often factored into admissions. And I know I'm not going to go on and on and on, but I know stories of where it really made a difference. So demonstrated interest in one is one of those changes that really can make a difference. And then I will just— one other very quick change that I— all of our students, I'm giving this advice to everyone. I am not affiliated with this company, so it's not like I'm— I have an incentive to say this, but many students now are using Glimpse. I think it's $22, so it's a very nominal fee to record a little 60 to 90-second version of something you'd want all your colleges to know, and it gets embedded into their platform, that slate that they read on. So sometimes coming to life for an admission officer— they don't all look at it, but many do— is really helpful. So I am telling all of our students to make a glimpse video. Many of them have showed me theirs. They're delightful. I mean, it's really nice to see the student's personality. It could be about anything. It doesn't need to be like something very serious. And what I like about it is it's recorded through their platform, so there's no way to pay someone money to put special effects and create a Steven Spielberg style video. It's just you talking or you showing them something about yourself. It could be because the landscape is changing. You want to get your face in front of admissions for many of these schools.

Well, I mean, you are amazing. I can't believe how much I've learned. Um, how do, how do we get people to work with you? Where do they go to sign up and find you?

So if they go to my website, we have a form there where they can fill it out. It's, it's, um, one-stopadmissions.com. Cc for collegecounseling.com. You could also just Google my name and you'll see my website. We, we offer a free Tips for Teens newsletter. We cover one topic every month. It's one page, so it's not like I'm bombarding people with too much mail, email. And we definitely suggest signing up for it because you will learn something. In terms of students, at this point we're taking 9th graders. We're filled for other classes, but we're accepting 9th graders, and we're in the mid-January, we will be opening up to 8th graders. But I would definitely sign up for Tips for Teens because parents tell us that they really learn something from it. Again, it's just one topic each month and we'll go into detail about that particular topic and it's related to college admissions. Wow.

Well, um, these students are so lucky to have you. These families are very lucky to be working with you and I can't thank you enough for your time and your expertise. Expertise today.

Thanks, Rebecca. This was so much fun. I love to speak about college admissions. I also love to meet people who are moms and love mom things because, yes, I'm there with you. So thank you so much.

This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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