10-Year Marriage Secrets for Couples

Yeah, you've got the job and you've got a career and you're making money and, and you've got two cars and a big house and, and all that stuff. But if you're, you know, going home, thinking, thinking dark thoughts, you know, and not talking about it, not, not sharing that with anybody and not finding balance or, or worth in your life, right, or not taking time to be with your children because other things seem more important, you know, those are things that I think are worth talking about.

I would describe it as an unconscious commitment to leave nothing unsaid that could get in the way of our connection and partnership. And greatest love story, like we're willing to risk it with this knowing on a level that is just so certain that whatever we're going through that's difficult or whatever we have to talk about that's difficult, if we'll just be brave enough to do that, we'll be closer and better for it. And it's almost as though we don't. We don't stop the conversation until we've gotten to a place that we're better. Want tips on how to have the most incredible relationship or marriage? Today's episode is designed just for you. Welcome to the Healing as Possible experience. I'm your host, Rebecca Silence. And on this show, our mission is to take you on, on a journey of hope and healing through all moments and seasons of life, not just the seemingly difficult or challenging ones. Even in the moments that things are going well, we can focus on being as healed as possible so we can experience even more joy, love, life and miracles. Today, I am so excited and honored to welcome my husband, Mark Daugherty to the show. We have not scripted this for you. I'm not quite sure where it's going to go, but I'm very excited. A great metaphor for the marriage that we have. We're not quite sure where it's going to ever go, but we're along for the ride and committed to the journey together. But we just celebrated our 10 year wedding anniversary and it's a big milestone and it's unbelievable to me how much has occurred over the course of our 10 years married. And we were talking on our anniversary about how so many of the moments and challenges that we faced could have really taken us out very easily and very quickly and yet we're still here. So we're just going to have an open and vulnerable conversation with you about our marriage and what we've learned and how we navigate it together. As a relationship expert, I wanted you to get an insider look into my own marriage, and hopefully what we share will help you with your own relationships or at least will ignite a spark that allows you to commit to a relationship of your dreams actually being possible for you. So with all that, welcome, Mark, to the show.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

This is so fun. Why do you think this show and episode that we're doing together is important? And why did you want to do this with me?

I. Well, I wanted to do it with you. One, to support the work you're doing, and two, because I knew that we'd have a good conversation. And whether one person watches this or no people watch this or however many you and I would get something out of it. Right. And I think our ability, our desire to continue to talk through the good stuff, the bad stuff, the planning, the boring, all of it. Right. Just to continue the process has been valuable. So, you know, why not do it on this format?

I love it, and I'm so grateful that you're willing to do the show and life with me. What is your perspective on 10 years of marriage? Let's just dive into the deep end.

Yeah. So 10 years of marriage feels like it's flown by. On one hand, I think a lot of people have this type of experience with time in general. Right. On one hand, it feels like, wow, where did 10 years go? On the other hand, when you really look at all the different things that have happened and other milestones that have taken place. Right. In our relationship, sometimes I look back in time and it's hard to see that time. Right. The past. Right. It's hard to think of who we were or what was going on five, you know, 10 years ago and how different we were in life was for us. You know, people who know us well know that we have been through some pretty high highs and low lows and. And, you know, it seems like, you know, kind of one. One thing or another has always been. Been confronting us. I mean, whether, you know, it was early days when I was opening my business back then, or, you know, fairly early in our marriage and relationship when that business went under and dragged me under financially with it, and I found myself bankrupt while your business was exploding and dealing with that, you know, learning how to exist in that dynamic where I was not the breadwinner for a period of time, you know, while I was certainly making some bread, still it was much smaller bread compared to your bread, which was interesting from a masculinity. What am I as a man if I don't make money? Blah Blah, blah. That kind of ego machismo stuff. Dealing with that and still trying to stay married while dealing with it.

Yeah.

To, you know, you're getting sick with. Well, before that, you getting. Getting pregnant. Which we weren't planning on, but as I like to say, we weren't planning on it, but we were not planning on it.

Right.

And you know, so, you know, bankruptcy, child cancer, chemo.

Right.

Like this roller coaster. And sometimes I look back on times, you know, those times, and think, wow, that was so long ago. And yet it really wasn't. Right. Seneca, our youngest is seven. That's not seven years isn't that long. And yet it is to manage home and relationship and careers as we've both done and all of that. So, you know, it's amazing to me how much we've crammed into 10 years and lived to tell the tale.

I couldn't agree more. What do you think your biggest lessons from all of that have been? That you want people to consider as just possibilities for them.

Yeah, I mean, one thing, one thing that I often think about in relationship and partnership, whether it's a marriage, you know, or as lovers or even co workers that are great partners or employee kind of relationships, but partnership in general is that a great partnership should be a multiplying effect. In that, you know, as an individual, I'm operating from 0 to 10 on any given day, and some days I'm a 10, and some days I'm a 2, and some days I'm a 5. And you know, from an emotional standpoint and just an output standpoint, I've always kind of looked at it in that scale. But if a great partnership comes together, then it's both people's numbers that multiply. And so now the scale is 0 to 100. And so if I'm having a 5 day and you're having a 10 day, we're still operating at a pretty high level. Right. And, you know, recognizing that there are going to be times when your partner's operating suboptimally. Right. It just is, you know, not everybody can operate at a 10 consistently all the time. Things are going to knock you down a few pegs and to continue to be there. Right. And find a way to not only support them, but support yourself and take care of yourself so that you can continue to be that multiplying effect. Right. The great times obviously would seem like when both are at a 10. Right. But sometimes it's when your partner's at a 2 and you're at a 10 and you carry through to get to the other side that you learn the most or that, that you grow the most. And you know, the other big thing is, is communication. You and I have different communication styles. You want to work through issues like head on and immediately and, and I tend to be like, whoa, I need time, I need space. Right. And you want to stay in it until there's resolution and I want to walk away and come back. So, you know, just learning to accept each other's communication styles, giving each other space, if there's space needed, but also being willing to come back and finish conversations. I mean, I know a lot of men my age who, you know, I'm 43 now, I, I definitely am, you know, in that sort of middle aged category at this point in time of my life. It's an interesting time. Right. And you know, to be, I guess. And, and I know a lot of men that, you know, will confide that they don't tell their wife everything, that there are certain things they're holding back because they don't want her to be upset or no. Or whatever, you know, or, or they're in relationships that they're not happy, they're in love, but they're not happy. And you know, all of that's possible, I think.

And why do you think that's important for people to hear or know? What do you want them to take from that?

I don't know. Because why be miserable? You know, life is short, right? I mean, for a long time I've always held this belief, understanding, whatever you want to call it, just based on my own life experience, that I could step off the curb tomorrow, not see the bus coming, and that's that. Right. And as morbid as that sounds, I do try to get the most I can or keep myself in a high enough vibration state, what have you, to get the most I can out of life and to enjoy, you know, the benefits that I have that the universe has given me. Right. Which so much of it is revolves around, you know, you, our children, my oldest, Lucy, who's back in my life, you know, and just being available at 100%.

Right.

And so finding that balance of career, money, family, love, self care, all that stuff, I think is, is really critical. And you know, I think that for me, part of it is, you know, you know, when I was a kid, my father took his own life and I've. That's always interested me beyond, I mean, beyond the emotion of it. Right. It's always interested me that it seems like men hit 40s, 50s, excuse me 40s and 50s and offing themselves becomes a real possibility. Like, it becomes like, if you look at. Look at any, like, the famous sort of actors and people, right. Like the other night you were watching a movie or as I love to say, a program.

Yeah.

I just think it's funny. So, you know, you're watching a program with Robin Williams and. And about. Damn near made me cry, you know, because there's a. There's an example of a guy that everybody thought, oh, this is a great guy. He's happy, whatever. And then boom. And so, you know, it's that. It's that finding that balance, right, that I think is lacking, you know, and. Yeah, I just think that. I think that it's important for, you know, men as they. Especially as they get older, right. And, you know, everything is changing. And yeah, you've got the job and you've got a career and you're making money and. And you've got two cars and a big house and. And all that stuff. But if you're, you know, going home thinking. Thinking dark thoughts, you know, and not talking about it, not. Not sharing that with anybody and not finding balance or worth in your life, right. Or not taking time to be with your children because other things seem more important, you know, Those are things that I think are worth talking about.

Yeah, I do, too. And I'm really proud of the way that we do respect each other's differences when it comes to communication. But we're always willing to have the hard conversations once we're both in a place where we're available for it. And I think we've gotten much better over the years at being respectful of the timing being really a win win. And I think there's nothing off the table in our marriage, which I really appreciate. There's almost this. I would describe it as an unconscious commitment to leave nothing unsaid that could get in the way of our connection and partnership. And Greatest Love Story, like, we're willing to risk it with this knowing on a level that is just so certain that whatever we're going through that's difficult or whatever we have to talk about that's difficult, if we'll just be brave enough to do that, we'll be closer and better for it. And it's almost as though we don't. We don't stop the conversation until we've gotten to a place that we're better as a couple and as individuals. And I think for me, that has been such an extraordinary gift to know that not only do I have A partner who's fully committed and maybe isn't going to show up the way I want, communicate the way I want, like, on the time frame that I want or the way I would want. But in your own way, you show up and I'll. I'll never forget this story. So whether you know us or not, now, you've heard from Mark a lot of our early years in the marriage. I like to say we've had the advanced course, and it was a challenge for me, too. With your business going under, that was our first challenge. We're both entrepreneurs, and I think that's one of the coolest things, obviously, about what we've created, at least to me. Like, we respect each other's entrepreneurial spirit, and we are. Were available for the risks that each other take, and we're there for each other through the ups and the downs. But I'll never forget in a coaching session with my coach at the time, I was getting resentful about what's going on with the finances. And now. And we had three mortgages because the business was personally guaranteed. So when the business went under, now we have three mortgages. And I'm working so hard and paying all the bills. And I remember just bitching to my coach and recognizing in a flash, I'm going to work this hard because I want to, not because I have to. Like, this isn't a now I have to work harder than I want to work moment. This is a, you're doing what you want to do, so why are you going to go into drama? Like, this isn't what you'll be doing for the rest of your life. And I just remember how powerful that was. And I also just want to point out that I think that for you, I don't want to speak for you, but I think this is true. Was one of your biggest fears, like, what's going to happen in my marriage if I am temporarily belly up financially? And then for me, my biggest fear was to basically have no control over my health, my body. I wasn't sexy. I remember again crying to my coach on a coaching call, fast forward while I was sick that, like, I don't. I don't. I'm not sexy. I don't think he's ever going to want to have sex with me again. And my coach is saying, rebecca, your job is to stay alive, not to be sexy right now. Just stay alive. Your hair will come back. You'll come back. You know, And I think it's also so difficult in those hard moments to Remember that they're temporary. And I think one of the things that we've done really well is to know there will be a beginning and, and a middle and an end to each season that we're in, each chapter, each moment isn't going to last forever. And we just, again, I think somehow have found a way to know with certainty that there will be another side. And no matter what life throws at us or is happening in life, we'll get better as a result of it, because that's what we choose. Yeah, I think it's been incredible.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's a long game.

Yeah, you love to say.

I love to say that. Right.

Don't be near sighted, don't be near sighted.

It's a long game. And I guess part of, you know, part of why I love to say that is my own ego because I think I'm really good at playing the long game.

You are.

But, you know, I also think there's validity to that. Right. I mean, not only is it this idea that if you're measuring everything as a sprint, then the little things are going to totally derail any relationship. Right. You know, and when you're in a relationship, there's nowhere to run from your biggest fears when they crop up. You know, my M.O. prior to getting married to you was. Was in relationships always to just end them, you know, get out, run, all that kind of thing. And a lot of it I've realized over time was because I'd start to get too close, too emotionally tied in, too vulnerable, and then, you know, not want that, Right. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna leave you before you can hurt me. That kind of. That kind of pattern. And then here we were married, and these things just started. Started happening, right? And like, we talked about that sort of, okay, you're broke, everything's going under, you got the third mortgage because, you know, that was the only way to keep the bank from taking the house and all that kind of thing. And how do you deal with that? You know, it's not because it's not only how do you deal with that in the relationship, it's how you're dealing with as an individual. And what are you making these things mean about yourself? Right? What am I making it mean? That I failed? Right. What am I making that mean? As, you know, from a masculine point of view, you know? You know, is it that, you know, men make money and men support and men are the breadwinners and all these kinds of things that maybe have been developed in my psyche over time. And how is that impacting the way I come home when, you know, I mean, I remember going through a period when that was all going on where I was working for a buddy of mine and God bless him that he was willing to give me a job. But I was back in, back in the kitchen cooking because I needed money, I needed to do something, I needed to help contribute. And that was easy and quick. And thank God my buddy who owned a restaurant there was like, hey, no problem, dude, you know, I got you. And I had that. But, you know, I remember coming home from that, you know, resentful that I was back in that position and, and that you were just blowing up and busy and, and, you know, crazy schedule and crazy, you know, success, you know, and I wasn't experiencing that. So. But going through it together is really interesting, right? And then, you know, first child together, being, being born, finding out you're pregnant, right? And again, how do you, how do you show up when, when the chips are down? How do you show up when, you know, everything is great, the most wonderful things in the, in the world are, are happening, right? That's, you know, and then even during the boring times, right, Sometimes it's just nine to five working, taking kids to school, kind of boring, right? Like, you know, middle aged wife in suburbia, you know, and it's not that exciting. And how, how do you keep it exciting, right? So there's all these facets that I think, you know, you either get good at or things fall apart. But if things are falling apart and you want to fix them, you can, you know, you can always come back. I think, you know, there's always the ability to come back and correct course correct.

Absolutely. I'm so glad you said that. And I think a big part of reinventing, which would be my way of saying the same thing, remembering that there are three sections of the relationship. There's each person as the individual, and then there's a third entity called the relationship. And one of the biggest things that I see with the couples that I work with is that there isn't an understanding that you can have independence. And the relationship, it feels very much a societal norm that you have to choose. You can be independent or you can have your relationship. And I think we've done a really great job of making sure that each of us take responsibility for our independent individual life, dreams, vision, experience, and we support each other's whether we agree or not. Because there have definitely been times where some of my choices you couldn't Quite see the vision yet. Same with you. And I couldn't quite understand the vision yet. But at the end of the day, we never have wanted each other to not be free or to feel free. So we've supported each other's independence and individuality and then together we co create the relationship. Which is where I think your point about, you know, the relationship creates a multiplying effect comes into play. But I think all three are important. And when we have neglected ourselves individually or neglected our attention to nurturing the relationship, that's when we've gotten in trouble and the course correction is essential if we're going to make it through.

Yeah, well, I think also just being honest about yourself personally, like you said, the three different parts, right? The, the two partners and the relationship as, as three individual entities. It's critical to continue as you grow in the relationship and personally to have a space where you can be open and honest about who you are, especially if you're becoming someone different or you're changing, which we all are going to. Right. You're not going to be 10 years. You know, I'm at 43, a different man than I was at 33. I just am. Right. I've had different life experiences. And it's the sum of these, these life experiences that, that makes us, you know, who we are as individuals. And so if, you know, we start out a relationship as an example and someone in the relationship is a nurse, that's their profession and they've been a nurse for 20 years. And then they get into this relationship and 10 years into the relationship they go, boy, I don't really want to be a nurse anymore. I want to be an author. Right. Or I want to be, you know, fill in the blank, a fire. Firefighter, Right, Whatever. If there's fear in their relationship that if they go to their partner and say, hey, guess what? I know I've been a nurse for 20 years and we're really stable and secure, but I'm thinking I want to quit that job and go write a book or go to firefighter school. If there's fear around that, right? If there's fear around changes in, in. And we're always going to have fear around changes in our bodies, changes in our Personas, changes in our, our drives. Right. Our natural drives and sex drives and urges and desires and all these things. But it's when we start hiding these things from the person that we're in partnership with that starts to create that, that rift. Yeah, right. And then we have to hide more and more and more from them. And that's, that's really. I think what. What I see most often in relationships is that there's just all this unspoken, unsaid, needs, desires, you know, what have you that create issue.

Yeah. And I do think that we continue to surprise each other. And I think when you think about change, it can be easy to default to. That's negative thing, or that's a scary thing, or that is a bad thing. And then, you know, we both say to each other all the time, like, you know, who you married, Even though we're doing something new or different or, you know, course correcting on our individual paths, it's like we started knowing who each other was, were going to be ever evolving and uber ambitious and the highest possible standards. So while there have been a lot of changes along the way, I think the way we foundationally started off the marriage was there was already an understanding that that would be the case, which allowed for different versions of ourselves to, you know, reintroduce. Let me reintroduce myself to you, my spouse, over and over again.

Yeah. Well, I think that part of it is that when you and I met early 30s, right. You know, and we had.

Oh, and we got together. Right. Because.

Well, when we got together. Yeah. Because when we met, it was. Was a few years prior to that. But when we got together, I think we were both in a position where we were just like done pretending for relationship, done adjusting or not being, you know, willing to be in relationship or want wanting relationships so desperately, you know, want that we were willing to pretend or subdue certain aspects of ourselves. Right. So when we first got together, it was kind of like, here's, here's me as an open book. Here's me as open book. Here's all the dirty laundry. Here's all the stuff. Right. Here's all the baggage I'm bringing along with me. You cool with that? Yes. You cool with that? Yes. Okay, great. Right. And. And, you know, the funny little story is when we went to lunch the one day, and you're like, well, I have this list that I worked on with my coach that is all the things I want in a partner. And, you know, you pull the list out, and I often joke that, you know, you pulled it out and held it up and it unfolded like 50 times, like in a cartoon, you know, just down the sidewalk it went, you know, Pages and Pages, 11. Eleven pages, you know, and. And I. But I similarly had been, you know, working with a. With a therapist because relationships were not working in my Life, right. And so I had sought some assistance with that and some guidance with that and insight. And one of the things that she had had me do was write down what, what was I looking for? Right. And so here we are at this point in time where we both met on, on very common ground of whether we're fully realized or not. We're both starting to look at relationship from point of view of, well, what is it that I'm looking for? Not how do I become what they want or what they're looking for, but what is it I'm looking for and where does, where does that meet?

In the middle, right? It was date three, we did that. And you, I thought I kept trying to scare you away because I was like, there isn't a chance in hell he's going to be able to handle me. I was still operating from the belief and paradigm that I was too much and that I wasn't enough at the same time. So I have all this evidence and I had all this history and I thought for sure I was going to scare you off so many times with the list, with my, my story about my childhood and where I had come from and who I've been. I still had a lot of shame around, you know, ways that I had coped and choices that I had made very early in our relationship. I was still bulimic in the beginning of our relationship and not telling you that right away. I thought there were so many reasons why this wouldn't be able to last and it would only be a matter of time. It was great, but it would only be a matter of time until it wasn't. And you just kept proving to me, you're like, okay, there's your story. Well, here's mine. All right, there's your list. Here's mine. And I remember when I, when I made the decision I hadn't gone full time yet. I mean, this is, this is how just precious the beginning of our relationship was to me. I remember being at Vases in Central New York and telling me, you, I don't want to just, you know, work in schools and have a part time private practice. I'm going to go on the radio and I'm going to have a private pay, private practice here in Utica. And I remember you looked at me and I made up. He doesn't think I can do it. He thinks I'm crazy. And you know, I think you're. This is another difference between us. You're very like, in my opinion, left brain, analytical and I'm very Right. Brain, creative, dreamer. And, you know, looking back, I think you were just looking at, well, wait a minute. How. How exactly is this going to work? There's nothing like this in the community right now. So. And then my brain is like, see, I'm rejected again. I'm not supported again. Let me see what can happen. But, you know, I remember it was. It was right after that conversation that I recognized if I don't get my eating disorder under control, if I don't get my life together, where I'm living what I would need to be living being who I would need to be for people to actually follow me, if I'm going to be in integrity, I can't do this. So I remember having the conversation with you. I want to, you know, leave the safe job with a consistent paycheck and the benefits and start my own venture here. And you had just started your aquaponic farm. And then I'm realizing, oh, my God, I'm, like, secretly bulimic and he doesn't know. I just all at that same time, remember, like, being brave and just deciding that I would rather know that I put it out there and see how you handled it and give you that opportunity to be with me and my truth, and then me getting the opportunity to be with your truth in the face of my truth. And I feel like that's what we've been doing ever since. Like, I'm not gonna leave my truth unsaid in shame and secrecy. I'm gonna risk. Risk putting it out there and trust that you can handle it and our relationship can handle it, and I can handle your reaction.

Yeah. Well, I think it's an interesting story because part of what I tend to look at is if I'm in a sort of conversation or transaction in a partnership, and I'm triggered by the person's response, like, if I'm, you know, if I'm in a. In a business partnership even, right? Or anything, and I'm saying something that's somewhat benign, right? I'm. I'm not coming in the conversation saying, I'm leaving you. This is over. I'm saying, hey, I'm going to take a different tack with my career. I'm going to move into this other area. It's somewhat benign, right? It's not, I'm leaving you, this is over.

Right?

And so if I'm triggered by someone's response to that, where am I out of integrity? You know, am I fully in integrity with my decision with how, you know, and in partnership, I'm making A decision, right? I make a decision to, you know, last year I made a decision to quit my job and talk about safety and comfort and all of that. I left an executive position with a company that actually is why we moved to Colorado. But it was, it was, it was breaking my soul. It was, it was killing me. It was becoming very dark. And I told you that and you said, do whatever you need to do. Right. But I was in integrity with that decision.

Right.

I wasn't hiding, right. As a, like, I wasn't hiding that secretly I'd been up to some and scamming them or something. And that's why I was leaving, right? Because, you know, in my early 20s, when I was up to all manner of shenanigans, I would leave jobs because I was afraid they were going to fire me. Right. So I wasn't in integrity when I was making those decisions, you know. So, you know, in any of these relationships and partnerships, you know, if we're really that triggered by sort of a benign thing, you know, I, I tend to look at it and say, okay, well, where am I out of integrity? Usually I can find it, you know, and, and so I thought it was a great example of, of what you were saying, right, Because I remember that pretty clearly as well, you know, that I was just like, okay, yeah, great, you said you're going to do this and this is how you get paid and blah, blah, blah. Because setting up a business and the business, business development and, and the, the, the financials and things like that is how I think. Right. So that's, that's kind of, you know, one of the skill sets that I can bring to the table. And so that is immediately where I go in that, that type of conversation. I think one of the other interesting things I was, I was thinking about is, you know, when you introduced me to the Love Languages book. Yeah, the five Love languages. Yeah. What is it? So it's like saying nice things and buying nice stuff.

Words of affirmation, quality time, physical touch, gift giving and acts of service.

Yeah, yeah, something like that. But that, that reading that. I remember reading that and talking about that with you. And that was really eye opening for me, you know, because so much of conflict, especially like in early in our relationship, and by early, I mean, like right up until about a year ago, would, would come from like, you know, acts of service is mine. So I would like mow the lawn and not understand why you weren't more grateful.

Right.

You know, and you would like, say nice things to me and not understand Why I didn't respond to that, that, right? But for me, words of affirmation is, is bullshit, right? And we've talked about this. Like I don't care about people saying nice things to me. Now where that gets me in trouble is, is that I don't say nice things to people, right? Which isn't good, you know, and, and so relationships suffer. If I don't remember, you know, or if I think nice things in my head, they don't come out of my mouth because they feel, for whatever reason, inauthentic to me. And so instead, you know, I'll do something, right? I'll cook a dinner or I'll take them, so whatever, right? By, you know, do these things. And so it was really interesting to learn that and learn that about each other, right? So that, that we can, we, we can better communicate and, and express love and gratitude in, in the ways that are going to actually land and mean something to the other person. You know, like, honestly, you hiring that crew to do our lawn was like the nicest thing anyone's done for me any really long time. Like, it's one of the best gifts I've gotten in a long time. I love it, right? That's, to me, that's like an active service gift giving, right? Ambo, you know, to real. It's a real win.

Win. Yeah. He came home the other week and I had hired a crew so he didn't have to do the lot anymore. But I think what's really important about this conversation is my number one love language is your bottom, and your number one love language is my bottom. Like, I can't even remember acts of service because to me that one gets weird based on my history, you know, and I obviously know and respect that words don't mean that much to you, but they do mean a lot to me. So I think that we've done a really good job of not only understanding what each other's love languages are, but also getting to the place where we're authentically wanting to pay attention to that. And I think this is a good segue into a big thing that I wanted to talk about with you, which was just this idea that you can have a different experience of the family you create, of the marriage you create than what you saw growing up. And one of the number one things that I see when I'm working with couples is they've become their parents and. Or they're re experiencing life with their spouse through the eyes and filters of their inner wounded child. Instead of creating something Different. And I couldn't be more proud of what we've built. I wake up every day, every day, and I go to bed every night saying, thank you, God. I remember in my first marriage, I've been married before and it was very toxic, very violent. I was a part of that. And I remember lying in bed at night fantasizing about exactly what we have now back then, like, why can't it be, you know, loving and kind and hot and sexy and fun and together and making each other better. And I think, you know, we've just done a really good job, Mark, of creating something that is ours. And I'm so proud of that.

Yeah, you know, I think a big part of that is we all experience something, well experienced points in our, in our childhood where we make up stories about what those things mean, right. And you know, I mentioned earlier my father's suicide when I was, was three years old when I started to come of age of reason and understand what that meant and things like that, that, you know, I made it mean that people don't really love you even if they say they do and everyone leaves. Right. And so that drove my behavior, but I wasn't conscious of it. I wasn't consciously like, I'm blowing up this relationship right now because I have this belief based on this experience from when I was three, you know, I wasn't putting that stuff together. It was only through getting to different points as I was becoming an adult where, you know, shit just wasn't working and not being, you know, wanting to accept that things weren't working and so seeking out, you know, help to fix those things that weren't working and you know, doing work, you know, what we would call, you know, personal growth work or this type of thing. But, but doing that work to start to really look at childhood and what happened and what I made that mean and what narratives were driving me as an adult. And then it was later on, it was after you and I got together that I met Heather, Heather Steele, you know, who's a wonderful coach here in Denver. And we of course were living on the east coast, but started to do some work with Heather, you know, including, you know, retreats and whatnot and you know, started to learn from Heather, I think was the first person who really talked to me about this idea that when you're having a reaction, so you're a 30 year old, 35 year old man having this reaction to a situation with your partner, your wife, you know, you're really not a 35 year old man, you're really having the reaction as an 8 year old child or whenever you're going back in your timeline as she teaches it to, and reacting. And one of the other things I learned in another realm, not working with Heather or traditional personal growth work, was an idea that I believe to be true, which is there's only two types of fear. Fear of not getting what you want or losing what you have. And you know, when I look at that, a lot of it, if I'm in that fear of not getting what I want, it is a childhood based, you know, fear, right? Actually both, I guess really are childhood based fears. But you know, everyone regardless grows up with some type of situations that they make up stories about in order to deal with and, and then those can, can not always, but can run the show. Anya, when you get older and, and people have different levels of it, right? I mean some people have horrific, horrific childhoods, you know, whereas I was, I was lucky to have a mother who, you know, did the best she could with what she had and, and you know, took over as, you know, both parents, if you will, when my, my father passed away. And then I had a whole slew of, of women in my life who played different roles, parental roles over the years that were hugely influential in, in me and, and who I became. But nonetheless there were still things that I made shit up about, you know, and so I, I think that if, if we're not willing to do some work around that, right, try to heal that, you know, I think it's kind of woo, woo foo foo, but heal the inner child. You know, when I hear crap like that come out of my mouth, you know, I kind of go, yeah, I don't like to talk like that. But you know, it is, it is true to some extent, you know, that if we don't do that, then when we get into it in our partnership and I've, I've seen this with you and I, I've seen this in the boardroom, you know, where, you know, you've got 40 and a 50 year old man, you know, going at it in the boardroom and they're really children, right? Right. They're really yelling at each other on the playground over the ball, right? And that's what's happening. And how do we get out of that and move beyond that? I think is, is, you know, what your work and Heather's work and so many, you know, there's other great coaches certainly that I've met along the way and people therapists as well that are helping to Move beyond that.

Right. And I think you can't skip the part where you're confronted with the past in a moment if you're going to create something new. And it's not a dig on our parents in a negative way when I'm suggesting you can create whatever the hell you want with your spouse, with your partner, with the family you're creating. It doesn't have to be the passed on repeat. It's not that your parents did anything wrong. It's just you can lead in designing whatever you want. But the patterns repeat, the lessons repeat, the wounds get reactivated over and over and over again until, and unless you move through them. And, and yes, big shout out to Heather Steele, who teaches, and so do I, that relationships are really where you get to meet yourself. I've had clients over and over again that want a divorce just so they can be independent and find who they are again. And that doesn't need to happen. You can find yourself again even in the relationship. I've had clients that are recognizing they've become their mother or their father or they don't realize that. They just know they're unhappy. And we get to see what we wouldn't be able to see on our own because of the relationship. It's not just all about, you know, the love languages and orgasms. It's about getting to see where your past still isn't healed, where your inner child is still desperately longing for needs to be met that weren't as a kid, whether your parents meant to or not. I mean, it isn't about, you know, blaming our parents. It's about becoming the adult that decides to create what they want. And then we get to transform and reinvent as many times as we want to. And I think, I think we're doing a really good job of that. And I think, you know, we shouldn't end the episode without mentioning how many times both of us have threatened divorce on each other.

Yeah, I mean, I think in the early days, I don't know. I don't. I don't think that that's happened in recent memory, honestly. I think we definitely got beyond that. It was, you know, somewhat childish reactions to things. Right. But yeah, we both had said it at various times in heated arguments, disagreements, what have you, you know, particularly in times where I think we would find ourselves disconnected and in being disconnected, then, then something happens. Right. You're disconnected. Your. Your ships are sailing in different directions. Right. Because of other things in the, in the, in the world, in your world that are taking priority. You're now making that effort to remain connected. At least this has been my experience, you know, with us. And then something happens, right. Then you stub your toe, right. Or the bill doesn't get paid or whatever, the little stupid thing happens and it turns into a blow up. Right. It's you know, World War Three. And in that moment I could see where, you know. Yeah. You know, sometimes after like a day or two, three days of warring. Yeah. We would make threats. I think one of the greatest things, you know, we've done the last couple of years is to have a, you know, date night every week. And, and that's something that has been great just to take that time. I mean, sometimes it's, you know, more elaborate than others, sometimes very casual that we do do something, go grab a bite or whatever. But it just gives us time to slow down and just be one on one and talk and get caught up and, and stay connected, you know, and that's, that's really been key in, you know, dealing with the stubbed toes and the stuff that life continues to throw at us. Because that's the thing, right. No matter how friggin healed you, you get, right. And anyone gets. No matter how perfectly you do things, no, no matter how great a parent you are or, or you know, how much money you make or any of this shit still happens. Like life will still happen.

And keep growing and evolving.

Yeah, yeah. And you keep growing and evolving. But you know, if you don't remain connected in partnership, then as you grow and evolve, you're going to grow and evolve away from the partnership.

Right?

Right. So yeah, you can grow and evolve and become that better person, but you're going to do it without your partner if you're not connected. Right. Similarly, as shit. Like I always say, shit's gonna happen when, when it does, if you don't remain connected, you know, you're gonna find yourself at a. At odds with that partner and struggling to, struggling to see your way through the problem.

Right. And I think it's not just about connection to your partner. It's also about connection to yourself and your individual dreams. Disconnection can happen around your own vision for your life as well. And then it's easy to get res or blame your partner and it's really you. I mean, over and over again I coach people that lost themselves in their marriages and it's not their spouse's fault. And then the good news is you can't always come back together. I think us having our weekly dates and our kind of Sunday check Ins are critical and we do it, we do it separately. So Sundays we look at the week ahead. What are the logistics, what are the bases that need to be covered and just how are we doing? Like, how happy are we? How connected are we? Anything that we need to fine tune, tweak every single week, we have that conversation on Sunday, typically, and then we have a separate date night. And I think those two things and sex, those three things are really, really important and keep us very close. And I agree. I mean, it's been years since either one of us have threatened divorce, but it was an option for a while to kind of threaten. And the, I think the bigger commitment has always been to each other. And so I also want to talk about that, like the, the little agreements. This is something else Heather taught me with, particularly with you or taught me was, you know, he's, she said to me one day, he's always keeping the bigger agreements. So if he's home late and he didn't call you, but he's bringing home dinner, like, who cares? Like, the bigger agreement has always been, I think, the priority. But it's easy to get lost in the, as you would say, minutia and not remember that, oh, we are on the same page. We are independently thriving and supporting each other in that. And then together we get to grow, reinvent, grow, reinvent, grow, reinvent. And we both want that. So just hopefully, you know, if you're watching, you're taking something from this conversation that you can begin to apply to your own life or at the very least, you can see that you can create your own kind of tried and true recipe for your dream come true love story, story. And I am so grateful that I am living my dream come true love story every day. And it only gets better. And I'm so thankful for that. And I'm so thankful for what we've created. I'm so grateful Lucy's in our life now. Do you want to share anything about that? You mentioned Lucy earlier.

Yeah, I mean, I did mention Lucy. So Lucy is my oldest child who I gave up for adoption when I was, was 22 years old. I was in a relationship and neither of us were capable of successfully parenting and I'll leave it at that. But made that decision, very difficult decision that dealt with over many, many years and then had the opportunity to register for online services that reconnect adoptive or adopted children with the birth parents or provide that platform when the child turns 18. And you know, the interesting thing about it is, and this is something that Rebecca was aware of that this person existed and that the situation had happened and that I was still working through it. Rebecca was aware of that on day one, I think, really of our relationship, because I had already been working on. On my emotions and my. My feelings and my beingness around that for, you know, around Lucy and the adoption stuff for years before Rebecca and I got together. And then. So it was very front and center. And I was always very clear that, like, hey, if this person ever. If I get the opportunity to meet this person again and have them in my life, that's something I want. And so I think it was really important whether, you know, whether Lucy was ever going to come back or not. That because it was such a huge piece of me, the story, the reality of that, of that situation was such a huge piece, it was really critical for me to. To be just forthright, like I said, from day one, which I was. And then even with Madison, my stepdaughter, right away we explained to Maddie that, hey, I had a child and maybe one day we'll get to meet them. We don't know. But Maddie always knew, right? Seneca, our youngest, when she started to come to an age where you could have a conversation like that with the child on their level, we would start to have those conversations. And then in April 2020, right as the pandemic was becoming a real shit show, I was home one night, everybody was in bed already. I was up late, as I can be sometimes, and I decided to check my Gmail for no apparent reason. And there was an email in there through one of these services that I had signed up for. And now over the last couple of years, I've had the opportunity to get to know Lucy, my oldest child, bring them into our lives. Rebecca and Maddie and Seneca have just been totally open and. And, you know, it's not without turbulence, right? Figuring out how do we integrate these worlds, you know, But I think that the biggest thing has been that just my wife and my other two children were completely aware this wasn't a hidden, right, a hidden portion of my life. You know, I was very open, not only about the fact that this. This other child existed, but my desire that they be back in my life. And then, you know, the universe saw fit to make that happen when it did. And, you know, super grateful and it's pretty. It's pretty amazing to have them then back and they're visiting us a couple of weeks ago, and we rented a big old family truckster and drove all around Colorado and had all the kids and everybody and the whole fam. Family. It was. It was amazing. It's amazing. And it's amazing to be supported, right? It's amazing to be supported by you in all the crazy stuff I get up to, you know? So, yeah, it's awesome.

I'm so grateful and thank you for having this conversation. What final thoughts do you have for anyone watching?

You know, I'm not sure I'll, you know, just that I think that if we're willing to do the work on ourselves, it makes the work of the relationship a lot easier. And again, whether that's marriage, dating, or work relationships or any type of relationship, it starts with the work on ourselves and then becomes the work of the relationship. And it, you know, you can really have something even if you don't have an example from growing up. And I think that's part of the problem, too, is a lot of an example of what healthy relationships look like, per se, or healthy masculinity or healthy femininity or what have you. Even if you don't have those examples, you can. You can still find a way to create it for yourself.

Absolutely. And I just want everyone to know that healing is possible when it comes to any and every relationship, if you're willing to 100% commit to being your best. And that's always enough. And I appreciate all of you for watching. Mark, I love you so much. You are my biggest dream come true and this family and our kids. I'm so proud of what we built, and I can't wait to see where we continue to go together. Thank you for being here. Do me a favor. For your homework assignment, please write out what it is that you want most for yourself when it comes to relationships, and then be brave enough to share that with your partner or your coach, therapist, mentor, if I can help. If you want to work with me for two days to reinvent, to get more profoundly connected than you can even imagine, reach right out. But write out what you want. It's the beginning of creating it. Thanks again, everyone. Healing is possible, and not just in general. For you, for me, and for all of us. See you soon.