Dealing With Difficult Mothers - Healing From Shame and Guilt

That shame is not yours. It was never yours. It didn't start with you. It was handed to you, probably unintentionally and unconsciously. Okay, we're going.

Okay.

Three, two, one. We're going.

I believe that none of us are immune to having experienced shame. Now, how can I be saying this with a smile on my face? The good news is there's life, there's love, there's joy, there's fulfillment on the other side of shame. And today on the Healing Is Possible experience, we are taking on this topic of shame, specifically shame around our relationship and our experience with our own mothers. Let's all buckle up. This is going to be an amazing show. So grateful you're all here. Welcome to the Healing Is Possible Experience, where we take you on a journey of hope and healing back to a place of self love and self trust again every single week. I'm your host, Rebecca Silence, author, media personality and emotional healing healing coach. And if you're new to our YouTube channel or new to me, welcome. If you're here hungry and coming back for more, amazing. Thank you. I am so excited for all of us to, by the end of this episode, have a new relationship with shame and a new experience of what's possible on the other side of it. So I've brought in an authority and an expert expert on this topic. Her name is Karen Anderson. She's an author of, I Believe, four books now and only a few weeks ago, has now published this last book. Is it your fourth, Karen?

It's technically my sixth book.

Oh, my goodness. So she's six months in and this is called you Are not yout Mother. And we're just gonna take it on. Let's talk about shame. Let's talk about our moms, and let's not be afraid to go here because it's one of those perfect examples where the darkness is real, but so is the light. And if we don't turn on the light, we don't know what's in the dark. That we have the power and the control and the opportunity to move and work with and transform. So, without further ado, welcome, Karen, to the healing experience.

Thank you so much. And just listening to everything you just had to say, I was like, yes, thank you. Yes, yes.

Yeah. This. This is a conversation, I believe, that has been divinely orchestrated and that is so, so, so important. So, Karen, let's just dive in. My first question, always for my guests, is what does healing mean to you? And I want to hear your answer specifically in the context of the Shame conversation. What does healing mean to you?

So I think healing is when we're able to take something that is a source of pain or suffering and transform it into something that is a source now of wisdom, creativity, love. That's basically it.

Well, now I've got chills. And now I'm over here going, yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Because it is information. It is energy. And what I've written about in my book Coming Back to Life is that there's no trauma and there's no part of our lives that can't, on some level, be used to our advantage. And that's what I'm hearing you say.

And I love yes, and yes. And there is healing, which is such a loaded word.

Totally.

And I think, well, there. There's, I think, shame around our definition of healing and what it looks like. And if it's not now, oh, I'm perfect and I'm not suffering, and everything is beautiful and wonderful and nothing bad ever happens, then we're like, maybe I'm not healed, and maybe that means there's something really wrong with me.

This is an important distinction because we can understand what's possible. We can understand that there is light in the dark, that we can be light in the dark. And then we can do a lot of what I call, you know, using our awareness as ammunition against ourselves without meaning to that keeps us in that limited possibility and feeling frustrated, maybe even resentful, unfulfilled. So, yes, thank you for going here. So now let's speak to how insidious shame is. I mean, we know Renee Brown talks about this. We know that in 2023, this is a conversation that more and more and more people are willing to have and own. I have shame. I am not a stranger to shame. But I don't think we've done a good enough job as a society of once people identify their sh. Shame, what do they do with it? And then I think there is still education that would be very beneficial to especially all of us in the United States around. What? Wait, I think I know what shame is. But do I really? So can you break this down for us? I'm just gonna, like, get quiet, listen and. And let you go.

So I'm gonna. I'm gonna read from my book because there's a chapter entitled what exactly is shame?

Will you show us the COVID please, so that people you know, can find it? You are not your mother. Releasing Generational Trauma and Shame by Karen Anderson. So please, if you are called, check out this book.

So shame. This Is from my book. Shame is a painful, destructive, and nearly unbearable experience, one made up of thoughts, feelings, sensations, movements, postures, and internal voices and images that creates both a disconnection from yourself and a barrier between yourself and others. It comes from being made to believe and then internalizing the belief that there is something fundamentally wrong with you. This can come in the form of harsh criticism or judgment from a caregiver or another person who is important to you. It can also come from abuse. What's wrong with you, and you should be ashamed of yourself quickly becomes what's wrong with me? I'm bad. There's something wrong with me. It's not okay. I'm not okay the way I am. And the older that we become, the more sophisticated these thoughts become, they come to feel more factual, like we're just reporting the weather. I'm being ridiculous. How stupid of me. How silly am I? And that sounds so innocuous and maybe even humorous. But what ridiculous means is deserving or inviting derision, mockery, or absurdity. And these sentences in your brain are not facts at all. You simply live like they are.

Powerful. So what do you want people, such beautiful writing and such beautiful context to understand about shame.

So let me back up and just share the format of this book. The first section of the book I call a timeline of disconnection and recognition. What do I call it? A timeline of trauma, disconnection and shame. And I go through pretty much my. For earliest memories and all the way up through recently. And I share little snippets. And I'll. I'll share one. Okay? Just. I'll just share one. A short one. Let's see if I can find a short one. Okay. My mother and stepfather take me somewhere and we spend the night in a hotel. All I have is my winter nightgown, but it's hot, so they give me one of my stepfather's T shirts to sleep in. My mother wants to take a picture of me in the T shirt. I don't want her to. I hide in the bathroom, but I can't hold the door against them. I run to the bed and hide under the bed covers, but I'm not strong enough. And they tear them off as I run around the room trying to hide. They take pictures of me and they think it's funny what I don't. What. What I want doesn't matter. I'm powerless. I disappear. So there are these little sort of vignettes, Very sort of stark, very simple, very straight, you know, not a lot of flowery Writing, and they are moments of shame and disconnection in my life. This middle two parts of the book are discussing the context of how does this happen? How do we end up creating an identity, a shame based identity. And then how do we unshame that? How do we unshame our identity? And then the last section of the book are similar vignettes throughout my entire life of moments of connection, of being unshamed even when I was a child. I mean, again, it's not like my entire life has been all shame until recently. Right? I mean, it's, it's not. My life hasn't been this horrific, horrible time. Right. But how do you know? What does it look like to be unshamed at the end? So what was the question?

So the question was just simply, what do you want people to understand?

I want people to understand that shame is not yours. It was never yours. It didn't start with you, it was handed to you. Probably unintentionally and unconsciously. For many of us, especially women, it comes through our maternal lineage, but not always there's other people involved. Shame also happens because in moments like the one that I just read, there isn't a compassionate witness, there's a shaming witness. There's something wrong with me that I didn't want my picture taken. Right. I couldn't stand up for myself. We could even call that, even though, you know, I don't think my mother would think of that as abuse. And it's kind of hard for me to even like think of it as abusive. But the framework that I use for abuse is that it's made up of four things. One is a hurt, an assault, a neglect. Right. Something like that. There's a power differential, meaning parent, child, a physical power differential, a social power differential, which then leads to the third piece, which is that the person who's being hurt can't consent or can't not consent, which then also leads to not being able to stand up for oneself or to say no.

Can you talk about that more? Because I believe for sure in childhood, you know, my book was recently quoted in Newsweek and the quote they pulled out was, we don't stop. We don't lose our voices, we stop talking.

Yes.

And so I just want to be very careful and delicate with this and I want more context from you because I couldn't agree more with everything you're saying so far. And then I don't want adults to mistakenly believe that someone or something has the power to have them unable to say no.

Yes, I Agree. And when it's your mother or father or whoever, where there's this power differential, your nervous system, in all of its brilliance is going to do what it needs to do in order to keep you alive. And nervous systems don't have logic. They're just like, are we going to die or not? And if I need to not speak up for myself in order to stay alive, that's what we're going to do.

Right? Right. And I call that, like, our survival personality. Our, you know, our ego is trying to keep us alive. And I believe we age, regress, even as adults, in the moments when survival is very tempting or winning. Keep going. What else did you.

Well, so where shame enters the picture in a scenario like that is because I wasn't allowed to stand up for myself, and my mother didn't say, hey, wait a minute, let's stop. I'm going to have some compassion for this child who's obviously distressed. Right. The child then makes it mean that there's something wrong with them. There must be me who's got some problem here, that I'm not enjoying this. And we, in these moments, we make decisions. I'm powerless. My. My. My needs don't matter. My wants don't matter. I'm. And when I say I disappear. Right. I'm going to just shut down and not be here anymore while whatever's happening around me happens. That's how I stay alive. And the shame is what perpetuates, which is what makes us, even as adults then, not be able to stand up for ourselves because we're still believing I don't matter. What I want doesn't matter.

And would you also say because we're stuck at an age and a moment in time that we haven't broken through yet.

Right. So being able. So what I want people to know about shame is that it's the shame that wasn't yours. It was handed to you unintentionally, unconsciously, that. That we then took on and became our own voice so that we can't even make the distinction. Right. That's what keeps us stuck. And of course it does. Right. I have so much part of this whole unshaming journey has been to. To become that compassionate witness for myself. Right.

Yeah. I want to get some more of that in a minute, but I want to go back to what you're saying about, you know, what I would describe as, like, the generational trauma that we inherit. Right. Inherited. It's learned, and it's easier. John Bradshaw writes about this in the book the, to not see our parents as dysfunctional, incapable. We wouldn't be able to survive that. So instead it's very common, I think, and I'd love to know your thoughts about this, especially if you're that generational healer in the family. I've been, you know, helping people heal now since 2002. And I am mostly in our healing as possible community, drawing in that generational healer, that one that saw life could be different. Different. Why isn't it? And I think so often shame creeps in in addition to everything you're saying because we think, well, something must be wrong with me if I see things could be different and no one else seems to get it. It's just like another layer, right, of something must be wrong with me. But what if nothing is wrong with you and you're just coping and managing and surviving to fit in with your family system and then as an adult, if you're still doing that, I think the good news here is there's a better way and it doesn't have to be like this. And then the next thing I'm going to talk about is identity. But what, what else do you want to say about this piece with the generational trauma?

I mean, I, you know, I did some work, I remember. So I have, I have probably more than three, but I have three shame based beliefs that I actually, this is part one of my practices. I actually have this little shame box.

Oh my goodness.

And I keep it on my desk and inside, inside are three little pieces of paper. And one of those pieces of paper says I'm a pathetic loser. And I did some work around this because I knew that that sentence that my brain was offering me and which would have me shrink and hide and feel a lot of shame was holding me back. And it was, it was so fascinating. I was, as I said, I was doing some work with a mentor around this. And she asked me, she's like, well, do you think your mother or grandmother ever felt like a pathetic loser? And I'm like, no. Like, my experience of them is not that. Do they have, did they have other shame? Probably, but not that. Like, especially not my mom. Like I could not imagine my mother ever. But I actually let that thought I would like that. I let that question sort of sink in. And over the course of a day I was realizing that yes, there probably I could actually remember. Not that I remember the time, but I remember the story that I heard about my mom flunking out of her freshman year of college and what happened around that. And as A result, she left school, met my father, got married, had me, and then got divorced. But she might not have used the language pathetic loser. But I think in that moment she felt that way. And I could also, based on stories that I've heard, imagine my grandmother and I was. I was sitting right here at this desk and I remember like pounding the desk and being like, oh my God, it didn't start with me. Pathetic loser is not mine.

Oh, so good, Karen. Yeah.

And you want to hear a really weird thing? Is that later that night I go to bed. I'm laying in bed and I start to feel very sick. And I got up and I was sick and I'm laying there on the bathroom floor and I'm like, I have this image in my mind of seeing. And that's where the idea for the box came of like women, women handing the box to each other, like in infinity, right? And like, each woman, like, you know, she tucks it in the. The shame based message and then takes it out and hands it to the next woman, you know, her daughter or whoever. And it. The on the outside, the boxes look different, but what's inside is the same message, right? Or the same pain. So like, as I said, I couldn't initially picture my mom thinking that, but actually it was true that she probably did feel that way and she handed it right on to me. And what was fascinating about that experience in the bathroom is that shortly afterwards I felt much better. It wasn't like I had a stomach bug or, you know, food poisoning. It was like I was literally purging that shit out. I don't know if I'm not supposed.

To swear here, but, oh, no, no, you're absolutely fine. It's so powerful to realize, oh, this isn't mine. Even when I was sick with cancer. For those of you that are meeting me for the first time, when I was pregnant with my second child, I was diagnosed with cancer, seven months pregnant. It turned out to be stage three aggressive melanoma. It was already in my lymph nodes. And at the time of my diagnosis, there wasn't very much treatment. And so the odds weren't good. They told me I had a 5% chance to live. That was all. And I remember being in bed, Karen, because I couldn't walk, I couldn't move. Chemo ended up killing all the nerves down my right leg. I had drop foot. Then they're telling me, even if you do live, you'll never walk. Just so you know, all these things. And I'll never forget laying in bed. And the physical pain, the emotional pain, the mental pain, the spiritual pain, it was holding me hostage and suffocating me almost literally to death. But I remember this flash, this lucid flash of clarity that said, you are healing your relationship with your body and your self worth and your commitment to light in a way that no woman in your family has ever been able to do. This is not just your work. This is for you and all of the women in your family. This is you having the ability to step into a new possibility, a new healing and a new relationship with your body, your mind, your spirit, your emotions that is going to heal the generations before you and after you. And it was like God was talking directly to me. And I've had so many moments like that. So thank you for so beautifully and vulnerably sharing that story. And the shame box. I've never heard of this before because I always think of it as, you know, it's an energy, it's a belief, it's an identity, it's a way of coping that we saw modeled that the only reason we keep modeling what keeps us in survival is because we want to survive. But what we don't understand. I just said this to a client last week. If you can survive survival, you can survive alignment. But we don't know that.

Right.

We might get it intellectually, conceptually, but I think it literally will feel like we're dying when we begin to unravel and shed survival to make room for the truth of who we are that we decide to be. Any thoughts on this?

Yeah, 100%. 100%. I, I don't, I don't have any thoughts right now.

Yeah, well, I'm just so excited to now take the conversation into identity because you and I were talking about this actually before we started recording. Right. How important it is, especially as women. But, but for all human beings. I don't care who you are. We get to take control over what we identify as, what we identify as part of us. I think one of the things that kept me alive in the face of this cancer diagnosis was I never identified as sick or dying. I was told I was sick and dying. I knew physically I was very, very, very, very sick, but I didn't identify as that. I didn't make that mind like an appendage. So let's talk about how people end up identifying with shame and how to know if that' going on so that you can reinvent and like you said earlier, unshame yourself.

So, yeah. How is identity formed? Right. I. I Kind of spoke to that when I read that little, not, not the snippet about the wearing the T shirt, but the snippet about like, what is shame? It. I see it as it is the water we're swimming in until we are recognized. Like, oh, wait a minute, I'm in water. Like, I, I, there's an analogy like that there are two fish swimming in the water and some other fish comes along or somebody comes along and says, hey, how's the water? And they're like, what do you mean? Right? We, like, we don't, we don't know that we're in it.

Yeah.

Right. Until, I don't know, something happens and wakes us up or however, whatever analogy you want to use there. But so, you know, I mentioned my shame box and my shame based identity. You know, I said I'm a pathetic loser. The other one is simply I'm bad. And the other one is I'm a selfish, spoiled brat. And I think what's interesting is in our, in our field of personal development and all of that, that we think we need to get rid of that, that we will only be okay when our brains no longer think those painful thoughts about us. And so far I have not been able to completely 100% have that happen. But you spoke to something in the introduction which is the idea that we can change our relationship to it.

Right.

So people would say, like, why would you sit, why would you have a box with that painful, horrible, those messages right there where you can see them? And the reason is because it's no longer in here. I can see it outside of me and I relate to it differently. It doesn't have the same hold on me that it did now that. Are there times. Yep. Like fairly recently where all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, I'm feeling shame. I'm experiencing shame. I, you know, I'm, I feel myself crumpling and wanting to hide. And that's just an invitation to be like, oh, wait a minute, what have I missed? What's, what's happening that I, that I missed? And there's a quote in the book from Stephen King from his novel that's entitled, titled Fairy Tale. Okay. And it is this like laughter and inspiration. Shame doesn't knock. Right. It's like sometimes we will just find ourselves there. And it's at that moment, it's not to say, oh, I guess I'm a failure. I get. Yep. This just proves it's to be like, of course, of course my brain did that. Hand over heart yes. Who am I actually? Right. Am I a pathetic loser? Absolutely not. But of course my brain is going to think that in perhaps this triggering situation. Right.

I love this. And, you know, it is about getting this truth that is more than a belief. And I believe we prove every belief we have. Right. But when it comes to. I believe it so much that now I identify as it. Like, I wouldn't even know who I was without it. Like, I wouldn't know I was swimming in the water because I don't even know who I am without the water. That's how I'm hearing your metaphor here. Right. So when it gets to the point where you realize I don't have to perpetuate the cycle or just do better with these dynamics than my ancestors did, I can actually be the one that says, no more. And if I can survive this, I can survive life on the other side of it, even if I have no evidence yet. Right? It's about getting these truths that are yours, but they're also not yours. They're inherited. You can drop it like it's hot. Everybody can start playing some Snoop Dogg. Let's drop it like it's. Because seriously, it doesn't have to belong to us anymore or be something we're so comfortable. Comfortable with.

Right?

And we're comfortable in our survival. And that is nothing to be more ashamed about. It's just something to be aware of so that as adults, we can, you know, pull out our inner Pretty Woman. I say who I say when, I say how much I buy into this bullshit. I get to decide if it's true for me or bullshit now. And what I'm loving so much, Karen, about what you're modeling today is so much compassion. Like, none of it's wrong. It's innocent. You're so neutrally and as an observer of yourself and where you've come from and what's possible for your future, talking us through what to do with this information, which has so many. Either go into what you were talking about earlier with the nervous system, that fight. I'm going to fight it. It I'm gonna freeze or I'm gonna try to run away. And all of that just gives it more power.

Yeah. Here's a quick story. I bought a rice cooker a few months ago, and I was making rice with it, and the, like, little timer thing went off, saying it was done. And I opened it up, and it was still full of water. So I'm like, all right. And I closed it back up and I cooked it some more. And I put it on the table and I said to my husband, this rice might be overcook. Was. And I told him what happened and he said, maybe you could have just emptied, you know, drained it. And very, very quickly, my system perceived. He thinks I'm stupid and I am. I started to snap at him and I didn't even get the whole. I don't even know what I said, but I didn't even get it all out of my mouth because I was like, oh. Like, oh, I'm sorry. I was thinking that you thought I was stupid and it was having like going into fight. Right? Yeah. And being. And to me, that is way more. I don't want to. Is it a victory or a win or whatever you want to call it?

Yes.

Very satisfying to, To. To catch myself in it rather than like, oh, no, I'm above ever getting angry. Like, no, I still do.

Right.

And we want to be able to have our survival responses because we still need them. Right.

So it's so powerful, Karen, because again, it's not about getting to the place where I never have this human moment where fear took over and my nervous system went into survival. It's just about. That doesn't have to be the rule. It can start to be the. Except that doesn't have to be the rule we live by. So keep going. This is so good.

Well, just.

And.

And that we can then have fun with it.

Right. I love that we're laughing about this. Right?

Yes.

Okay. I don't want to not talk about. Why are you so specifically bringing mom into this shame based conversation? And what, what do people need to know about that? Because I feel like you're alluding to, you know, essentially how we parent ourselves and nurture ourselves is so directly cor. Correlated to how we were nurtured. Right. And parents specifically by mom. Right. So I don't want to assume that's where you go with this. But what. What is the big piece of why to go here specifically with mom?

So my previous books and a lot of my work, the work that I do with my clients. So I, I wrote a book that came out and actually the precursor book, I wrote a book that came out in 2015 and it was called the Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother. That book then got picked up. I rewrote it, revised it, expanded it, and it became a book entitled Difficult Mothers, Adult Daughters A Guide for Separation, Liberation and Inspiration. And so I have a mom and had a very difficult relationship with her. She also had a very Difficult relationship with her mom. And I guess it was about 20 years ago that it started to become obvious to me that there was something wrong in that. And you know, did all the therapy, did all the alternative things that you can do, right? Because what I didn't realize that was underlying it all was shame that like there must be something wrong with me that I don't get along with my mom. And so it has just been like my evolution, I guess. And so because, because my, because I'm known for mother daughter stuff, I also have a book that's called the difficult Mother daughter Relationship Journal, which has lots of like, prompts for mothers and daughters who want to work through this kind of thing. But I also see it as. So there's the micro of, you know, one adult daughter and her mother who maybe butt heads or have a dissatisfying relationship, but then also the macro of like, why? Because there are a lot of troubled mother daughter relationships. There's a lot of estrangement between mothers and daughters. I was estranged from my mom for four years. And like, why this doesn't happen in a vacuum. This doesn't, you know, it's like, oh, you know, narcissistic mothers and entitled daughters and like, you know, all of this like finger pointing and pathologizing, right. Of, of this relationship. And it led me to realizing, and I mean, I'm not the first person to talk about this, but it led me to realize that the context is a culture that doesn't value women equally. Misogyny, patriarchy, white supremacy, even, that the parenting advice of the day, back in like the early 20th century, 20, you know, the early 1900s through like the 50s and 60s was informed, not all, but a lot was informed by Nazi ism. And as the generation you spoke to this earlier of like, like what is, what is happening generationally? Or like why are some of us waking up? Right? And it is a generational thing. It's that back then feelings didn't matter. Feelings are stupid, feelings are weak. Your feelings don't matter. Like all of that kind of stuff and, and are being cut off from the wisdom of our bodies. That's primal. That's ick. That's gross. That's not okay, right? Like it's all about the intellect and that has hurt humans. And so that's where we look at what's being handed down, right? Because a woman needs to be connected to resources. Because I mean, obviously you and I know different, right? That we can make it on our own and all of that, but that's relatively brand new in the history of humanity. But women have needed to stay close to resources. And so we put up with shit that's not ours. We give away our power in order to stay close to what we, you know.

Right. And survival is so glorified. Right. And so as you were talking, what I was really feeling into was on the other side of shame is alignment. Shame keeps us out of alignment with the truth of who we are. And the truth of who we are is not who we became to survive in an effort to please, in an effort to avoid conflict, in an effort to stay loved. Shame is just what we've known and learned. And anything learned can be unlearned. But what would you say to people about the reactions from the people around them as they step out of shame and survival and into alignment?

Well, so you asked me, like, why mothers, Right? Why? Why?

Yeah.

So, yeah, as I in my life started to step out of shame and into alignment, my mother was like, oh, hell no, that's not what she said. But, like, that was the energy. Yeah, her actions said that. And it was not pretty. And I kind of had to decide. That's why I, you know, this was at the end of 2010, I estranged myself from her because at that point, I didn't know what else to do. I just was like, yeah, nobody is going to treat me this way anymore. This, like, you know, I've learned a lot since then, obviously, but, like, that was a. That was that a moment for me of, do I stay attached to this person unhealthily or do I break it off and live the life that I want to live?

And then what has happened since, like, has your mother come around? And there's been a reinvention.

I talk a lot about that in this book. So at the end of 2010, I cut ties with her. And a year or two later, I became my grandmother's legal guardian, my mom's mom, and again, lots of history there. As a result of that, I was required by law to be in touch with my grandmother's heirs because I was also her trustee. She was a very wealthy woman. And so I was legally required to send monthly reports to my mom and her siblings, my aunt, my uncle. And so then, okay, now legally, I'm in contact with her, but that was it. And I don't know, it was maybe a couple years after that that she sent me a letter in the mail and she said, what are you going to do to rectify this situation? And basically, you know, we went back and forth, we Started emailing each other and she, she kind of wanted to rehash the past and there were like all these things that she wanted me to be ashamed of. And I was kind of like, yeah, no, nope, not doing that. And it was around that time, like around 2012, 13, that I learned about coaching. I started, you know, taking courses and getting certifications and, you know, learning about all this stuff. And in my naivete at the time, I was trying to coach her, which was not a good idea. But it was after her mother died in 2015 that we kind of had this uneasy truce for a while. And I went to, I live in Connecticut, she lives in Maine. That's about a five hour drive for people who don't know. But I went to see her for the first time in, in all that time that, you know, we hadn't been seeing each other or talking much. And it was a very interesting visit. And I, But I also had boundaries, right? This was the first time that I was really establishing, okay, this is okay. And that's not okay. She wanted me to stay at her house and I said, no, I'm going to stay in a hotel. Oh, well, don't be that stupid. I'm like, that's my preference, right? So I was maintaining boundaries. And after that visit, I came back home and I remember, I don't know, a few emails later, I said something like, hey, do you want to get together again? And she said, no, I don't see the point. You make me uncomfortable. And again, it's been this sort of like, okay. And I remember in that moment, speaking of survival energy, right? I remember my initial reaction when she said that was I felt like a baby who had just been rejected by her mom. And then kind of came like, the snotty teenager was like, you. Then I didn't say any of that because then very quickly I came around to, okay, let me know if you change your mind. Speaking of identity, right? Who did I want to be when I responded to her? I didn't want to be this naughty teenager. I wanted to be a grown ass woman. So I was like, all right, let me know if you change your mind. And so we've been, we've been dancing a dance, right? We, we danced a dance at a certain tempo with a certain music for most of our lives, right? And I just decided that I'm changing that. The way we dance together. And we've been figuring it out ever since. It's not pretty always, but this is.

So powerful and important because the way you're Describing boundaries. People need to understand or they don't need to, but. But at least consider boundaries aren't a wall. Boundaries aren't. You have to be this for me to be okay. Boundaries are me respecting myself, loving myself, honoring myself, taking care of myself, liking who I am, regardless of how you show up, regardless of what you do or not or say or not.

And one of the main things that I see, again, generationally, and if we were to put a, excuse me, like, specific generational thing on it, right, My mom is silent generation. I'm 60, so I'm like a little bit old to be Gen X, but I'm like, I'm not really a boomer either. I'm in that, like, little sort of in between. But. Right. Like our mothers didn't get to say what you just said about boundaries. Like, they didn't get to. And so they're kind of like, well, that's not fair.

No. Well, and I want to just say this too, because in the private practice, 15 plus years with families, individuals, couples, I'll see it where it skips. It skips the generation. So here's what I mean. If I've got, you know, a grandmother who was the persecutor when shame would strike, when survival would strike, whatever that looks like, then my mom likely is the victim. And then I want to be the persecutor because I don't want to be like, mom, my mom was the victim because she didn't want to be like the persecutor. You know, and this happens and happens and happens until. Until somebody in the family goes, how about I just decide who the hell I am, who the fuck I am?

Victim consciousness. Yes.

Right. Because there's so much more to life than survival. And that's what I think both of our work is about. But we don't know how to do better than picking the fight flight freeze that we think is the best. The victim, persecutor, rescuer, that we think is the best. And then we're not going to be, you know, the one that we think is the most harmful, but it's all just perpetuating powerlessness, which all perpetuates shame. So guess what? On the other side of all of that is alignment. And yes, see your mothers, your grandmothers, your, you know, fathers, grandfathers, as innocent and just doing the best they could with the generational healing. I've got to share this real quick. You know, with my mom, it was a journey. There were never years where we were completely estranged, but there were two years where I had surrogate mothers as I was doing personal growth work because I just didn't know how to receive nurture and. And I wasn't going to get it the way I wanted it from my particular mother. And that didn't mean she didn't love me. It just, I think, is liberating to recognize, wait a minute. People are doing the best they can with the tools they have and us needing to change them for us to be okay. Talk about seek and do not find. So later, my mom ends up coming to one of these seminars that I was, you know, at the time I was running the back end of the was. I was working for another coach. I was filling these seminars. I'm basically kind of second in command. My mother comes and you could have knocked me over with a feather, Karen. I don't talk about this very much, but she. My mom got up in front of 100 people and said, be better than me, Rebecca. I want you to be better than me. I want you to grow. I want you to be all of who you are. And I knew in that moment what a rare gift that was. But I want all of the women, everyone watching, whoever you are, to be able to give that gift to yourself. It's okay to break the cycle. It's okay to be all of who you are. It's okay to be better than what you saw. It's not you trying to be arrogant, selfish. Better than just be the best you can be with this one precious life and be brave enough to break the cycle. And in my experience with my family, that's been the only thing that gave me any shot in hell at a reinvented closer relationship. And it's been turbulent, you know, and it's been worth it to never again be willing to lose me or betray me or dumb myself down in the name of love, because that's the opposite of love. So I've got to be that mom, that parent I needed. I've got to be so clear about the identity that I chose. That's powerful. And I don't think we wake up one day and know who we are. I think we get to be adults, decide who are we going to be now? And we always have that right. And I'm just so grateful, Karen, for your work, for your story, and for your vulnerable leadership here on this topic that I just don't think is talked about nearly enough.

I know it always surprises me because I'm so immersed in it. I'm like, oh, everybody's talking about it. And like, oh, no, they're not.

Not the way we're in the unpacking it today and not the way. I haven't read your book yet, but I will. But it sounds like not the way you're writing about either. So. You know shame, it can be a stepping stone into you taking your life back. Shame can be something that in your family system stops with you. And if you want support in breaking up with shame, the way you've experienced and the way you've inherited it, read Karen's book and then go to rebeccasilens.com where I have the free trigger trauma release method. I can walk you through specifically breaking through shame with the trigger trauma release method. Just go to rebeccasilence.com and it's completely free. With that being said, Karen, final thoughts.

You have brought up the idea of identity. And I call it, some people call it self concept. I think I call it that in the book. I also call it it intentional identity work. And what I want to say about it is because I think I used to feel this way when I first heard about the concept. It was like, oh, I'm supposed to change who I am. And what I have found is that it's not about changing who we are, it's about stripping away the stories. But then also, so as I said, I have the shame box, right? So, so what are other thoughts that I have about myself that are not shame based that I've had for a long time, but which I don't practice thinking? And maybe there are some thoughts that will be new to me but that I can connect to a story or an experience that I had that makes it easy again. It's like, oh, I think I'm supposed to change who I am and that's going to be like, like hard. And it's going to require like, you know, it's mysterious. Right. And the process that I outline in my book is about identifying times in your life. So, right. I, in the beginning of the book, I identified the times in my life that I had taken on shameful beliefs about myself. Now the job is, the work is what were times in my life that I felt like in the flow and so happy to be alive? When were moments that I was moved to tears in the best possible way? What are moments in my life that I was really proud of myself for standing up for someone else maybe or like had this sense of justice and like fierce like protection or fierce love, right where I felt moved to act. And I think most of us, I would hope most of us have memories like that. And we can then use those memories as a resource because they are. They can't be taken away from us. They're ours. And we can use those moments to ask ourselves what was alive in me that had me be that way? What was I thinking about myself? What was. What did I feel? What were the sensations? What was happening around me? Right. I mean, we're talking sensory, right? Who else is here? Did the room have a smell to it? Was it brightly shining or was it dark, like. And that memory then becomes the resource that is multisensory. It has emotions associated with it, it has posture associated with. Has movement associated with it. And that's how you tap in.

Well, and Karen, it has authenticity and alignment. Yes. Infused into it. Right. Because what I'm hearing you really talk about is, you know, when we're in any type of stress, distress, survival, that isn't authentically who we are, and that's us out of alignment. And we've all had moments. We weren't born misaligned. We've all had moments where we were fully aligned, fully authentic, fully experiencing us as the truth of who we are. And find those moments so that more and more and more, that can be the default, that can be the rule. That can be the majority of your life. And if you can't find any of those moments because you're just so in it or because it's just so far from, you know, any thing you can put your finger on, you can also just journal about, well, what's ideally what I wish would be happening. What's my fantasy?

Well, and there's. There's another section in the book where I talk about if. You know just that, like, if it's hard for you, find other resources. Now there are videos that I've seen that have moved me to tears. I collect those videos. There are certain types of music. There's. There's a video of Rupert Paul out there talking about being some. I can't even remember what he was saying, but when I watch those videos, I feel how I want to feel.

Yes, Karen, So, yes.

Yes, that's what it's about. And like this. I'll just show you. This is. This is my identity right here. This is my intentional identity. It's not, you know, it's just a sheet of paper with words on it. Right. But one of my favorites, and I'm not a super religious person, but there's a woman who. I don't know if she was a nun or something. Her name was Macrina Whitaker, and she said and I quote this in my book. Dear God, show me the truth about myself no matter how beautiful it is. I read that and I oh that's so gorgeous.

Read it one more time.

Dear God, show me the truth about myself no matter how beautiful it is.

Oh, what a beautiful, beautiful high note for us to end on. And we are, whatever your beliefs are, spiritually divine children of this universe of God and we are born worthy and we learn that's not true and we can get back to that universal truth. And shame doesn't have to be part of our day to day and it doesn't need to be an ingredient in our relationships ever again. And none of us are immune to it. So our greatest wish for you at the end of this episode here is that you have a new relationship with shame and possibilities around. You know where to go from here with your shame story. And let's get more honest about our shame stories so that we can transmute it. Let's get more honest about we're not alone. And the more we hide in our shame, bury our shame, the more it festers and become toxic and continues to spread through our families, not just our bodies. So Karen, I can't thank you enough for being here. What's your website? Where do people people buy your book?

You can get the book on Amazon and like other, you know, bookshop.com or is it bookshop.org I don't know. And my website is kcl anderson.com and I have podcast called the Dear Adult Daughter Podcast and I have my newsletter that I send out my call them my love notes. I it's also my blog I'm on TikTok Places.

You are not your mother and you are not your shame. Karen, thank you for joining us today on the Healing is possible experience. And thank you all for staying with us through this very very powerful and important conversation. If you haven't already, please hit subscribe on the Rebecca Silence YouTube channel. Click that bell so that you can be notified right away for all of our latest and greatest content. Share this episode with someone that you know would be touched and moved by it. Healing isn't perf promised, but it is possible and it is possible for you. Love you. Thanks again Karen for a gorgeous conversation and for the beautiful work you do in the world. We'll see everyone soon.