Beyond Medication | Navigating Diabetes with Practical and Spiritual Guidance

A lot of stuff in the brain, because what they've actually discovered— there are lots of studies out now where they're saying that Alzheimer's disease and dementia might be labeled as a different form of diabetes because it's actually the result of years of prolonged problems with blood sugar management, and it's affecting the brain.

Hello and welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, a podcast to raise your awareness, decisions, and voice for alternative practices so you can take back control of your health. I'm Rita De Michele, your host, a mindset and empowerment coach, and the founder of the Onus platform. Join me each week so you can create the health of your dreams. On today's show, I'll be talking about type 1 and type 2 diabetes with Daphne Wiswell, who has 20-plus years of experience as an integrative nutrition coach working with women whose lives have been impacted by a diagnosis and to help power them to reclaim their health with both practical strategies and spiritual truths. Welcome, Daphne.

Thank you so much for having me today, Rita.

Oh, you're so welcome. This is really important. Diabetes is like soaring, isn't it? So many people are getting a diagnosis of diabetes or prediabetes compared to our parents or their parents. Like, it's just growing exponentially. So I'm so happy to be diving into this topic today with you. So let's start by tell us the difference between— so our listeners really get a clear message of what's the difference between type 1 And type 2 diabetes?

Yeah, that's such a good question, and I'm so happy to bring awareness to the distinctions because a lot of people just think diabetes and it's just one kind and we can treat it one way, and that's not true. So type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease. It's actually, um, something that happens when your immune system looks at your pancreas, which is the organ that secretes insulin, and it says, oh, this is a foreign object, I'm going to attack this thing. And so it attacks the pancreas until the pancreas no longer produces insulin-producing cells. And so there's— there are lots of functions of the pancreas, right? So there are still a lot of functions that work in type 1 diabetes, but producing insulin is not one of them. And for anyone listening who doesn't know, insulin is a hormone that we absolutely have to have to stay alive. So when someone is diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, it doesn't mean like, oh well, they can change their diet or they can exercise more or whatever and they should be okay. No, that person is going to need to inject insulin for the rest of their lives. Now, a type 2 diagnosis is characterized by insulin resistance, which means that your pancreas is still producing insulin, but for so many different reasons, your cells aren't taking the insulin in, and so your blood sugar just continues to get higher and higher and higher until you get this type 2 diagnosis. And with type 2, I don't think there's a good thing about any diagnosis, but I would like to say that the good thing about type 2 is that in a lot of cases, it can be reversed and it can be controlled with diet and with exercise and with good sleep hygiene and with all, you know, stress reduction practices and all kinds of things. And so whereas a type 1 diagnosis is, hey, you're going to need this insulin for the rest of your life, with a type 2 diagnosis, that isn't always the case.

Well, that's a great distinction. A lot of— I'm sure a lot of people didn't realize, like I didn't realize, that type 1— most people are born with type 1. Is that correct?

It's, it's not. Um, type 1 can be diagnosed at any age. So type 1 diabetes used to actually be called— there were a couple of different names— insulin-dependent diabetes or Um, now I can't even remember what it used to be called. My youngest son, uh, juvenile diabetes. Juvenile diabetes.

Mm-hmm.

Because they thought that only kids got diagnosed. And so then there were adults who had this, um, autoimmune condition, but be— but they were being treated for type 2 when they actually had type 1, and they weren't seeing any improvement in their symptoms or the way they were feeling. Well, it's because they weren't being treated properly. Um, and so type 1 can happen at any age, and, and you know, with autoimmune disease, there are so many things that science knows about the cause, but there are so many things that they don't know about the cause. So, um, you know, I, I know people who have had infants as young as 7 months old who are exclusively breastfed that were diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. So it's not related to diet or any kind of anything that people might think it would be if a 7-month-old who's only been breastfed is getting the diagnosis, you know. But, um, you know, people in their 40s, 50s, 60s can also get diagnosed because there's so many things that can trigger our immune systems.

That's fantastic because I think there's a lot of conflicting information out there because a lot of people have actually told me that type 1, you're born with type 1 diabetes and you basically through diet and lifestyle, you kind of create type 2. So I'm really happy for that clarification. I'm sure our listeners are too because I certainly didn't realize.

Yeah.

So can we speak a little bit to What is pre? There's a lot of talk about pre being pre-diabetic. What is pre-diabetes, and what exactly does that mean and look like for people?

Okay, so oh, I actually hate the term pre-diabetes, but I'm glad it's there, I guess. But um, but the reason I hate it is because most people don't even get that phraseology from a physician until they're like this close to having the type two diagnosis. I mean. I know probably not everyone's watching us on YouTube, but I'm like, my fingers are so close together. Like, they're so close to having a type 2 diagnosis. They're like, oh, you're pre-diabetic. And by the time you get to that point, you have already been experiencing all kinds of symptoms with your blood sugar and insulin fluctuations and all of that, that it's going to take you a while to get to before you were pre-diabetic. So pre-diabetes means that your A1C is going to be high. So A1C is a blood test that you can have done that is like a picture of the average of your glucose readings over the last 90 days. And so you go in, you get this one blood test, and they're like, oh, over the last 90 days your average glucose has been above this level, so we're going to say that you are really close to having diabetes. Um, but, but that doesn't happen for until you have been experiencing those fluctuations for years. People can go 10, 15, 20 years with blood sugar problems and not be classified as pre-diabetic and not know that that's what they need to fix, which is a real problem because there's not a lot of education out there to help people understand what they need to do to avoid the diagnosis in the future.

That's great. You know, before we dive into that, before we dive into things like, um, nutrition, diet, lifestyle, those sort of factors, can you tell us You know, what are some of the warning signs people need to know about or look out for around type 1 diabetes?

Oh, okay. So type 1 usually comes on rather quickly. It's not something that you're going to watch for for years because type 1 will kill you if you don't get a diagnosis very fast. So with type 1, you're looking for increased thirst, increased urination, flu-like symptoms a lot of times. So, for example, my son was diagnosed when he was 2 years old.

Oh, wow.

And yeah, that was 18 years ago. He's 20 now. But when he was diagnosed at 2 years old, he had lost 5 pounds in the course of 10 days. And he was urinating a lot, like soaking through diapers after he had almost been completely potty trained. And just water— if we couldn't refill his cup of water quickly enough. He was just drinking, drinking, drinking constantly. Um, extremely lethargic. Um, not making a— you know, 2-year-olds a lot of times don't make a lot of sense when they talk, right? But you know, you know, if you're— um, you know, they're kind of like, what do you mean? How did you know? But, but you know if your 2-year-old is acting like your 2-year-old, right? But, um, people will get lethargic. They might slur their words. They, um, might want to sleep a lot, or, um, their, their appetite might change. They might want to eat all the time, or they might not want to eat at all. There can be nausea. So So there, there are a lot of different symptoms to look for, but basically what I like to tell people is if you go to the doctor because you're experiencing flu-like symptoms and something in your gut is just like, you know, they test you, oh, you don't have the flu, just go home, sleep it off. Do not go home and sleep it off. Demand a blood sugar check because anyone can get diagnosed with type 1 at any time. And we see too many people in our community die because they were not given a simple blood sugar test. It is infuriating. It's very simple. It's very cheap for anyone to get the supplies to check themselves. So there's no reason not to request that.

Can you inform our listeners and and the people watching? This is where I think we can get unstuck. So we go to the doctor and we say, "Oh, I'm having these symptoms. I think I've got high sugar because they've Googled. They recognize some of the symptoms, and they say, 'I would like a blood test.'" This is where they get stuck. What do they say? What do they ask? Because a lot of times people do a fasting, a fasting blood sugar, but you want more information than that to be able to see whether the diabetes is coming on. Is— don't— what, what do they ask for specifically?

Okay, I would ask for, um, an A1C test to be done.

Is that—

No, A1C is the average of your glucose over 90 days. So you want to get an A1C. You can also ask for an insulin test because then you can see if your insulin levels are higher than they need to be. Because if your insulin levels are higher than they need to be, that means for whatever reason your cells aren't taking the insulin in, so your body's working harder to produce more. That's, that's a, a trigger sign, you know, warning sign of something not being right. Um, and then if If a family member has type one diabetes or has dealt with any kind of diabetes, and you're not sure what type it was because you were you feel like maybe you were misinformed or whatever, then another test that you can ask for to distinguish between the two types is a C peptide.

Oh, okay. What's C peptide?

I know I had a feeling you were going to ask me that. I think it's I think it's an antibody test, but I'm not sure about that.

These are the these are the ones that they can ask for to get a very comprehensive overview of what's happening in their body as. as opposed to, uh, your sugar. You know, here, here in Australia, I don't know how it is, we go, uh, 5 or 5.5. Yeah, it's good. Anything under 5 is fantastic as long as it's not too low, but 5 or 5.5 is really good. And anything starts getting over that, you have to start being really careful. So—

Right. Yeah. And I'd have to, I'd have to do the conversion because in America for blood sugar, you're looking at 80 to 120, 70 to 120, 80 to 120.

Is normal.

Yes.

And that's what I'm— that's what I'm trying— the point I'm trying to make is you don't want just that metric. You want that deeper, comprehensive overview so you know exactly what you're dealing with and hopefully not progress to type 1. So leads me to my next question, which is around type 2 diabetes. What are some of the symptoms that show up for people if we're talking— now we're talking diabetes, so we're talking lifestyle, we're talking everyday sort of thing. What are some of those Symptoms that show up for people long before they actually get diabetes, type 2 diabetes?

Okay, so some of the really common symptoms are brain fog, extreme fatigue, um, a change in libido. There's so many things that are attributed to like hormones, right? Um, you might also just have extreme feelings of hunger, like you just can't go more than 2 hours without eating, and then you eat and then you're hungry again, and then you eat and then you're hungry again. Um, weight gain, like unexplained weight gain. Even for people who eat healthy foods and are exercising, there can be weight gain. And so that can be incredibly frustrating. Um, and I'm trying to think of what else. Did I say brain fog already? I'm, I'm not having brain fog. I'm just— I want to make sure I get— it's an important one. Um, memory problem. You know, I, I think I'm repeating myself, but yeah, a lot of stuff in the brain. Because what they've actually discovered, there are lots of studies out now where they're saying that Alzheimer's disease and dementia might be labeled as a different form of diabetes because it's actually the result of years of prolonged problems with blood sugar management and it's affecting the brain.

Is that because the sugar isn't getting into the brain? Because the brain needs sugar, needs the glucose, I believe. Is that because it's not getting into the brain? Because when—

I don't—

because you're not—

I don't know. I've read the studies, but, but I think it has to do with your I, I don't know. I can't answer that question. I don't know the, the science behind all of it. I just know that, um, if you're— if your body isn't metabolizing things properly and it's not getting the nutrients that it needs and it's not, you know, things aren't breaking down the way that they're supposed to, and it's just not good. It's just not good for your brain.

Absolutely. What are some of the lesser— what are some of the lesser-known symptoms that people might be experiencing that they're not attributing to Their sugar level?

I think some of the ones that I just said because, well, I actually, myself and several clients that I've worked with, have all been through this process of going to the doctor and having these symptoms and, well, let's check your thyroid, and, okay, your thyroid's okay, and, okay, well, you know, you're just getting older and maybe you're going through menopause, and blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever. And I'm like, no. You know, the only reason I wised up and thought, I'm going to check my blood sugar myself and I'm going to check it every day and I'm going to keep a log and I'm going to look for patterns, and It's because I knew how to do that with my son. But what if I'm just, you know, Mary on the street who doesn't know all those things, and my doctor tells me that, and I go home and I'm like, well, I guess this is just my 40s. I guess I'll just keep forgetting things, and I guess I'll just not want to have anything to do with my husband, and I guess I'll just, you know, keep getting fatter and fatter and work out harder and still doesn't do any good and be frustrated with my life. You know, like, what's going on? I didn't know this is what getting older was going to be like. But then when I— and the hormonal things too, like things with my cycles, like it was just bizarre. And I never got a prediabetes diagnosis. My A1C was always beautiful. My blood sugars at the doctor's office when I went and had them tested, oh yeah, everything's fine. But when I started checking them myself every morning, every meal, every night, I could see there were wild swings. I was getting way too low. I was going way too high. And so I was able to start recognizing patterns and make some changes to shift that. And so I'm, I'm probably not answering your question, but I think that the— those things that I just said were some of the lesser-known signs. The more frequent signs are the ones that we said for type 1: frequent urination, you know, the flu-like symptoms, the increased thirst, all that kind of thing. That's like—

Yeah.

And I actually had a client once, it was her very first session with me, and we were talking on the phone and she kind of started slurring her words and she was describing her symptoms and I was like, Have you had your blood sugar tested? Have you ever had your blood sugar tested? And she was like, no. And I said, you need to go to the urgent care right now. And she went, and her sugars— I don't know what this would be in Australian terms, but they were 4 times what they needed to be. In other words, they were high. And she got her type 2 diagnosis that day, the day of our very first health coaching session. And she had been to the doctor for symptoms for several years trying to figure out what was going on.

And their testing just wasn't showing those huge fluctuations. That she was going through. So what—

Well, when you look at an average, think about it from a math standpoint. When you look at an average and you've got 50s, 60s, 50s, 60s, then you have 180, 170, 180, 50, and you average all that out, it probably comes out to around 115, 120. Oh, that's normal. But if you look at it every meal, every— you know, you're taking more information in when you're not looking at an average. It makes a huge difference because you're getting more important information that way.

So I, I— what I'm, what I'm gathering from what you're saying is it's more the, the roller coaster of the sugar level. It's more those huge— it's like a huge goes up, the huge dip down. The— yes, that causes that continuous up and down over years can contribute, is what I'm gathering from what you're saying.

Exactly right. Because it's a— it's your, it's your pancreas trying to keep up with how much insulin your body needs. It's your liver spitting out extra glucose in the times where your sugar's low. And then it's your body trying to metabolize and keep all that, you know, it tries to stay in a state of homeostasis. Your body wants to heal itself and be well, so it's always trying to stay regulated. And so it does that by, you know, counteracting. But then all that counteracting, it ends up kind of like imploding, you know, like, okay, here we go, we're done with all that now. Type 2.

We're gonna give you something to wake you up.

Yeah, right.

So what do you do that's different to other practitioners? What's your approach that's different to other practitioners?

I think what makes my approach different is how much I rely on God, um, because I don't know all the answers. And so I'm a Christian and I, I pray and I listen, and it was, it was what I needed in my own journey. I've been, um, healed from rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto's disease, vertigo, um, just all kinds of different things in my body that weren't right. And I used a lot of practical strategies, but also I just, I, I prayed. And so that's what I do with my clients when they come to me. I'm— if, and if they're not comfortable with prayer in the session, then I'm praying for them before the session because God will give me questions to ask them. And when I get those questions to ask them, lights start coming on and, you know, things start popping up. And, oh no, I haven't asked my doctor about that. Or what, you know, sometimes it's really practical things like, have you talked to your doctor about whether or not you think you're getting enough selenium in your diet? You know, well, what's selenium? No, my doctor's never mentioned that.

Okay.

talk to your doctor about that. That might be something you need to look into.

But I haven't—

I don't know. There's no way I could know everything about everyone's history, but God knows. And so I just depend on him for a lot of the things that I do with my clients to bring them real breakthroughs.

That wasn't the answer I was thinking you were going to give. It's, it's definitely an interesting one. So other people would say that's like— you say God, others would say intuition. So you're tapping into like A higher— your, your own intuition or something higher. So is that what guides you? And do you use your background as a nutritionist to help them?

Oh yeah. So I— yes, I, I also have a certification in integrative nutrition. I have lots of training and lots of years of practice with my own kids and with clients and with family and, um, all different kinds of ways that I've helped people. But it's But yes, I, I do have a certification and lots of training and education in nutrition and lifestyle practices. You know, we focus on things like sleep and rest. Stress reduction is a huge one. A lot of people who are dealing with chronic or autoimmune disease don't— they're just in this— people are in a hurry all the time. They're in a rush.

Yeah.

And they don't see the value in, in taking care of themselves or in, you know, cooking whole foods or, or they don't know how. I think that there are a lot of people who just don't know how to do simple things like roast a chicken breast, you know. And so, um, I help clients practically also, of course.

Great. Can you, um, give our listeners a few suggestions about lifestyle changes that they can make to decrease their risk of developing type 2 diabetes specifically? Because, you know, that's the one that most people can avoid or manage. with lifestyle and nutrition? Can you give us some suggestions?

Yes, I think that everyone should, um, enjoy some form of movement every day. So one thing that I like to tell my clients is, what did you love to do when you were a little kid? Did you love to ride your bike? Did you love to go swimming? Did you love to jump rope? Like, tap into that inner child part of you so that exercise and movement isn't a chore or something that you're dreading or whatever. Like, make it fun, something that you look forward to, because moving your body is really good for your blood sugar. Um, also, uh, reducing stress. And so stress comes in all different shapes and sizes, right? We all have stressful things happening in our lives, but really evaluate, like, what is it that you love about your life and what is it that you don't love about your life? And is there anything in the don't love column that you can delegate to someone else, that you can hire someone else to do, that, um, you can enlist help from your family members to do? Or, or what are those things that you just really don't love? Some of them we can't get rid of, you know. But are there toxic relationships? Oh, it's a big one. Are there toxic relationships, and why are you holding on to them? What, what is it that's making you do that, you know? So evaluate those kinds of things, um, to see how you can get your stress reduced. And then sleep is so important because sleep is when our body heals itself. And so do not skimp on sleep. And, um, a lot of times people who have blood sugar or hormonal things have a difficult time sleeping, because especially women in my age category, there's like hot flashes and all kinds of things. A lot of times that is related to blood sugar. Once I got my blood sugar under control, all of the hot flashes I was having completely went away. I don't know if it'll be like that forever. I'm 45. Maybe they'll come back, maybe they won't. But I know that sleep is really important. And so to get good sleep, you want to, you know, think about how much caffeine you're having and what time of day you're having it.

Mm-hmm.

Are you drinking alcohol? Because alcohol in the evening might feel very relaxing, but it's actually interfering with your sleep quality. And so look at those kinds of things because that can really help you increase how well you feel.

Do those kind of strategies work with type 1? I know they must probably work really well with type 2. Would they work with— for someone who's got type 1?

I mean, they would probably help them maintain A level of, um, you know, more evenness, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Because people with type 1, when you have type 1, you're basically trying to guess how to be an organ all the time. You know, like, you're— how much insulin do you need right now while we're sitting here talking? You don't know. I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

How much insulin do you need when you're— how much insulin do you need when you're taking a nap? How much insulin do you need when you're about to take a bite of a cracker? How much insulin do you need when you're nervous about a work presentation or a conversation you're about to have? Or how much insulin do you need when you're excited about a game that's coming up? We don't know the answer to these questions. We only have really educated guesses based on people's age, weight, and other factors. And so the interventions that we use for type 2 might work for people with type 1, but the most important thing for people with type 1 is to monitor what they're eating, how many carbs they're taking in, and making sure that they're dosing enough insulin to cover those carbohydrates because it's the only way to keep it That's great.

What sort of, what sort of transformation can someone, a client, expect working with you?

Well, it depends on their level of commitment.

It's always a big one, isn't it? I mean, the taking the action is the big one.

I, I'm saying that with total honesty because I have some people who have you know, incredible experiences and breakthroughs. And then there are others that we don't see much change. And I'm not saying that the people who don't see much change weren't committed, but, you know, you do— you have to be committed. And so I've worked with people who have, for example, one of my favorite clients and stories to share is a guy with type 2. He was, I think, 60 years old at the time we worked together, and he needed a knee replacement. He was in terrible pain with his knees. But because of his blood sugars being out of control at a very alarming rate, his physician said, you are not a candidate for this procedure until you get that under control. And so he came to me. We worked together for 3 months. And I mean, again, I don't know how to convert this into Australian numbers. So here his A1C was 12.5, which it needs to be less than 7 for the surgery. And in 3 months, We got it less than 7, and he was able to have his surgery. And it was phenomenal because men especially are hard to work with sometimes because they're so set in their ways. And I'm, I'm not all men, I'm sure, but like a lot that I've tried to help, it's like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm like, okay, well, I can't help you. But, um, people— I think people can expect a breakthrough at the level of their commitment.

And some of the things, just to recap in a couple of words, what are some of the things you did with him? Would it have been, uh, mindset or stress reduction? What are just a couple of things in points that you did with him so someone knows that if they come to you, this is what they can expect to do and this— that's the result they can expect to get?

Most of his changes were related to nutrition and movement. Movement was a difficult one because he was in so much pain with his knees. Oh yeah, some creative ways for him to do that. Um, and then nutrition. And so when I work with clients, I never have them come to me and I'm like, okay, let me Usually they'll come and I'll say, let's have a little— I'll give them like a journal and I just want you to for one week to just fill this out. What are you eating? What are you drinking? This is not for judgment. This is for me to have the information that I need to help you make some shifts. And so then they come back and most people, I'll say, need to change just about everything. But we can't change everything in a day. That's too overwhelming. And so we look at one thing at a time. And so, for example, he really liked eating cereal at bedtime, which is really not great for your blood sugar. So, and cereal's not great for your blood sugar at any time ever. And so we worked on what are some things that you can do to, you know, help your sweet tooth and you still feel satisfied, but you're not spiking up your sugar right before you go to bed. Or could you have it at a different time of day so that then you can move your body afterwards, which helps bring your sugar back down if it goes up? So things like that. We're going to take little baby steps. So that you're not overwhelmed, because if you're overwhelmed, you're never gonna follow through. And they're gonna be practical things, and I'm always gonna walk clients through with very strategic steps. I want you to do this, I want you to do this, I want you to do this, and then I want you to check in with me if you're feeling a blockage, a barrier, an obstacle, so that we can work through that before we meet again. And so there's constant communication and very strategical steps for them to take.

I love that. I love that because it's, it's this type of education that helps people because he had sugar problems but wasn't connecting the dots that eating cereal at night is causing a huge problem. I mean, eating carbs at night, for, for most people, maybe not everyone, but for most people isn't a good idea, you know, right before you go to bed. So I love it that we can, through this information, through this education, we can help the listeners who have diabetes or prediabetes or whatever understand that— they may not know that what they're eating at that time of day is having a profound impact on their, on their health. I love that.

Yeah, because I, I never tell anyone like, oh, you can never have this again or whatever. Like, what can we pair it with? Some foods that you want to eat that you don't want to get rid of, fine, but this is what you can pair it with so that when you're eating it, you're slowing down the reaction of the glucose in your body. And it just It's a beautiful thing. We're going to time it. We're going to pair it. We're going to move. We're going to learn some things, and you're going to watch those numbers change. And it's very empowering. I want my clients to feel very empowered, and that's why I love educating people because there's such a there's such a lack of education in the type two community. You know, people go to the doctor and they're given prescriptions, and they're set. They're told they're going to be on this for the rest of their lives, and they might meet with a nutritionist one time, and sometimes those nutritionists give them terrible advice like. start using Splenda or Sweet'N Low, and they're full of things that— those things over time when they're consumed are going to create insulin resistance. Well, this person's already dealing with insulin resistance. Why would you tell them to consume that? So, I can get on a whole— I'll just stop right there. But I love educating people.

I could give you an— we don't have the time, but I could give you an amazing case study about my husband and that artificial sugar and what it did to him. Just horrendous. You know, that is, that is one of the biggest lies out there. And people are so confused. You see them walking around with all the diet— we say soft drink, you say soda— all those drinks in diet form, thinking they're doing their health something, they're having— they're better for their health.

It's terrible.

That's, that is another, that's another episode.

We could do one for sure.

We could do one on that.

So, oh yeah.

Daphne, what message would you like to leave our listeners with today?

Gosh, I think that I would just like to tell anyone listening who maybe had some fear rise up while we were talking or describing different symptoms because they've been experiencing things like that, like, there's no reason to be afraid because there's so much hope for your future. And if your family has it and you're like, oh no, it's just a matter of time before I get it, I want you to know that's a lie. You don't have to get something just because your parents or your grandparents had it, there are things that you can do to educate yourself so that you don't have to live that way. And, um, yeah, just, just be hopeful for your future and, and learn everything that you can learn. And, you know, you're going to do better tomorrow than you did today because you're going to keep learning and growing.

I love that message. That is— I love a message of hope. And I hope all our listeners and our viewers listen to that And realize that when you advocate for yourself, look after your health, engage with someone like you, get the information, get the education, and take the action, you can have such a better outcome and experience. Daphne, thank you so much. It's been great having you on the show. I've loved everything that you've shared.

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

And for our listeners and viewers, all of Daphne's Uh, contact information and how you can get in contact with her and learn more about her would be in the show notes. So please have a look, and thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you, Rita.

Thanks. I would love to know what was the biggest insight or aha moment you got from this interview so you can now speak up, take action, and make informed decisions for your health. And if you like this episode, get instant access to your free ebook, Alternative Wisdom: Taking Back Control of Your Health, at life-onus.com.