Defying the Odds | How I Beat Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia Three Times

And statistically, the data doesn't lie. Like, Gabor Maté published a book where he said people pleasers are at a higher risk of cancer. Like, the data he pulled from, from the years of research that have been done, like, it doesn't lie. And it's like I was doing all, all of this, creating all this achievement to, to not only please my mother, like, but also not get picked on and not yelled at and not, you know, be told I was a piece of garbage, basically, that I wasn't smart enough, that I wasn't enough, that I wasn't a good person, that I wasn't all these things that I was being told all the time.

Hello and welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, a podcast to raise your awareness, decisions, and voice for alternative practices so you can take back control of your health. I'm Rita De Michele, Your host, a mindset and empowerment coach, and the founder of the Onus platform. Join me each week so you can create the health of your dreams. Welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, and in today's episode, we'll be talking about how somehow Casey found a deeper life purpose after cancer. Casey Kang Head. is a 3-time survivor of acute lymphoblastic leukemia and stroke. She had— she is now a cancer coach, a yoga instructor, a nutritionist, and a Reiki healer, and the author of Finding Your Way Back to Heart Center: Cancer Treatment Ended, Now What? Casey, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Oh, it's such a pleasure. And I think these sort of stories where we share what we've gone through, especially someone who's gone through such an aggressive cancer 3 times and has survived and then experienced a stroke— and I know that's no easy feat. My mother had a massive stroke. There's a lot to that. And, um, yeah, I would really love— I think it's so important that people actually hear these stories so they can garner some insights and help of what you did. So some, you know, words are powerful. People learn from other people's words. So I would really love it if we could actually start with how did this all start for you?

It actually— yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, it, it started about 10 years ago. On February 14th, 2014, I went for a follow-up appointment thinking like I was anemic or that I was about to get strep throat and I was nipping it in the bud, right? I was being proactive. Little did I know that the appointment that I had made during lunch to go back to work, I wouldn't be going back to work for a very long time.

Wow.

Yeah. So I went to an ENT, which is ear, nose, throat doctor, and for the follow-up, and he's going over all the things that are happening inside me and he goes, I think you should see an internist. And I'm like, okay. So we walk over to the internist, which is like a building away, and we walk in. My husband just happened— I think he knew something was inherently wrong and I didn't. Which is why he was there. And we went into the— we stepped into the office and the waiting room is full. And they were like, oh, here's your room right here. And we bypassed everyone. And that's when I knew, I'm like, uh-oh, this must be kind of serious. Like, we just skipped the line.

That's a big hint, isn't it?

Yeah. That's a huge hint.

You think, uh-oh. I've got the express lane. This can't be right.

Right. But I still, again, didn't think it was as severe as what it was. And the internist is going over everything. He goes, well, I need blood work to really confirm what's going on. He goes, the fastest way to get results are through the ER or I can order it and then I'll get them on Monday. And he was like, I looked at him. I go, well, what would you do? He goes, probably go to the ER. Not panicking, not anything, right? Like, just, this is what I would do.

Hmm.

So we went to the ER, and sure enough, like, a couple hours later, they were like, this is what we think is wrong with you. They can't confirm it until they have a bone marrow biopsy, but they're like, we're 99.9% sure this is what you have. gave us sheets of paper about acute lymphoblastic leukemia. And I was like, what? Like, I, I was in a little bit of denial. I'm not going to lie. Rightfully so. Like, I just— my brain couldn't grasp what was happening. I had 4 hemoglobins at the time, so they immediately started giving me blood infusions and I got transferred downtown. I was hospitalized for 30 days, technically 28 days, and I started chemo before we got results back from the bone marrow biopsy because they were that sure.

Wow. That's unusual. That doesn't normally happen.

No, that's how positive they were.

Geez.

And how aggressive. It was.

How aggressive. And whilst you were going through this, were you given a reason why you developed this cancer? Or, I mean, they gave you the prognosis or the, the diagnosis. They gave you the diagnosis, but there was— there any, you know, explanation of why? Why suddenly you were okay one day, or maybe it does build And then all of a sudden, so aggressive.

No, they really didn't say why. They just kept talking about, oh, the 18-month protocol of chemotherapy is going to cure, get you to cure, like 97% successful, blah, blah, blah. Like all these statistics. And then basically like what you're going to be doing for the next 18 months straight. And everything's very laid out. So it's more— we were more like concerned with what What is this going to take? Like, versus why did this happen? And it wasn't until later, in hindsight, I can see why it happened. Technically, I was diagnosed with a children's cancer, which is really rare to begin with, at 31. And even rarer to be diagnosed at that age. Like, I think there's like globally about 1,000 people a year.

Yeah.

And to survive it. of acute lymphoblastic leukemia in my age range of a young adult.

And that's considered a child disease, a child cancer?

Technically, it's categorized as a childhood cancer.

So normally you develop it in childhood, not necessarily in your 30s. Is that what you're saying?

Right. Yes. So it was extremely rare.

For this to happen. So something obviously went amiss. Well, why do you— can I ask, why do you think— why do you think if, if you look back, um, say on your life or what you had been doing or experiences, stress, anything like that, why do you think maybe you got this disease and didn't get a different disease?

In total honesty, it was a matter of which one. And when, not versus like if it was just a matter of time and which one. And I truly believe it's as a result and a byproduct of— I had a very traumatic childhood. Um, after my parents divorced, I, uh, lived with my mother and my stepdad full-time. Well, not full-time, they shared custody, but there I was, there at their primary residence most of the time. And my stepdad's extremely abusive physically, mentally, and emotionally. And I lived like that for 10 years, which led to decisions in my 20s to exacerbate what was already going on, right? Like, I didn't stop the stress cycle. I just kept living in it and adding more to my plate.

Right.

And at some point, like, like anything, it's gonna break. The system breaks. And so I truly believe it was a byproduct of me living under 2 straight decades of stress and nothing but it. And, you know, I can't turn back time. I don't— I wouldn't change any of the decisions I made during my 20s, but it did exacerbate, I think, what I was already feeling. Um, to a certain degree, uh, I, I lived like a lot of people, checking boxes but not really knowing why or, or who for what. Not really for me, but well, you're supposed to do this and this and this. And I said okay, ah, and kept going.

So do you feel because you were— I have, I've actually just been listening to a lot of podcasts around people pleasing and the stress that comes from people pleasing. And I definitely had an element of— and I'm happy to say had an element of people pleasing. And they say the incredible stress that comes from that. And when you say tick the boxes, check the boxes, you don't even know why. Do you feel that that may be, um, for a word, like a knee-jerk reaction to the stress? And if I did everything right and I ticked all the boxes, well then I'd be safe at home when you're, when you're saying you were living with an abusive stepfather? Do you think there's a—

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I agree. Um, and statistically, the data doesn't lie. Like, um, Gabor Maté published a book where he said people pleasers are at a higher risk of cancer. Like, the data he pulled from, from the years of research that have been done, like, it doesn't lie. And it's like I was doing all, all of this, creating all this achievement to, to not only please my mother, like, but also not get picked on and not yelled at and not, you know, be told I was a piece of garbage, basically, that I wasn't smart enough, that I wasn't enough, that I wasn't a good person, that I wasn't all these things that I was being told all the time.

Yeah, it's, it's a really hard thing to process, and I hope we're not going too deep here, you know, for you, that we're like, yeah, we're okay.

I mean, I, I, it makes me emotional because now that I know what I know, it just, it hurts even more that a, an adult human could do that to a child.

Absolutely. It's— it is frightening the amount of adults that do do it to children. It is horrific, you know, what happens. And I guess when we come out, like you've come out of it the other end, you are, I guess, a lot more resilient, a lot more knowledgeable, a lot more aware, you know, that you'll never repeat those patterns. And I guess that kind of brings me to my next sort of question to find out, you know, especially for the viewers who are listening to this, like, why? You know, I was going to ask you, why then? Why then? What was happening in your life and what were the messages that you were receiving that weren't being heard? Like, with these—

Honestly, Please. No, that is a, that is a great question. I think it was the first time in my life that I had all the boxes checked. I had a house. I had the husband. I had the job, the career. I had friends. I had, you know, what would seem on the outside a great life, but I was white-knuckling that life and It was the first time that I actually stopped and breathed and was like, I think I'm okay. And like, my— I think my nervous system was just like, well, we can finally deal with the one thing you haven't been dealing with. Yeah, that you need to deal with.

Can you speak a little bit more into that, if you feel safe enough to do? Do you— could you speak a little bit more into, into that?

Yeah. So like, you know, I had a very lucrative financially corporate job, but at the same time I had a 2-hour daily commute in the car through traffic, rush hour, worked, you know, 40, 50-hour weeks at least, you know, said yes to everything at work, any, anything outside. So although, yes, I was successful on paper, it was It was not what I thought was successful, but I kept doing it because I didn't know any better. And it was a lesson that I think is why my cancer kept coming back until I stopped repeating the pattern. Right? Like I was in treatment, still went back to work, 2 hours commuting, 8-hour-plus days going through treatment, still working. And then feeling so much guilt when I had to leave. to go to appointments. It was tearing my soul apart. And I think that's why it kept coming back, because it was like, you're not going to learn this until you learn this.

Well, that's it, isn't it? I mean, diseases keep presenting themselves, and our body keeps presenting these, these, um, symptoms to wake us up so we don't keep going down the same path. And yes, you developed cancer, which is a very high-end lesson, but so you don't keep going, you know. So it's fantastic that you actually eventually learned the lesson.

So I am very grateful, Rita.

I'm sure, I'm absolutely sure you did. For, for people who maybe are listening that do have cancer, um, Can you explain, like, in hindsight, what were some of the symptoms that felt confusing at the time that now make so much sense? What are some of the things that you were feeling? And just like you were saying, you were people pleasing, you were working, you felt, um, you know, almost shame to leave your work to put you first, to prioritize your health and what you were going through. And so you may not have recognized all those very, very early symptoms, those really early symptoms that you know something's happening, but you think, oh, it could be something else. You brush them off. Can you speak a little bit more to that of now you know what they were and they make so much sense, but in the beginning they didn't? What were they?

Yeah, I think the ones you mentioned were clearly present and evident. I think there was a lot of internal— I can't even describe this. The only way I can is like internal agitation always. Like, like the best example I can give is like the simplest thing of like I wanted to go work out on the weekend because it was like, you know, I had more time, I could actually do it. And the minute my husband would be like, no, let's go to brunch, I'd be like, okay. But internally, I was like frustrated and fuming. Like, I never get to do what I want to do, right? Like, I can't explain it other than like these, this internal, like, you just feel agitated inside and you don't know why. And you're just like, okay, well, I'm going to do this. It'll be fine. You're going to have fun. And I'm not saying it wasn't fun, but like, it wasn't truly what I wanted to do. And I think that was one that really still is hard to name and hard to understand, even for myself, of like, that's a weird way to show up where you're just internally agitated all the time. Like, you're saying yes to all these things, but there's such a big piece of you that wants to say no.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And that caused that, that tension, the tension of not being true and authentic to yourself and to your own voice and to your own needs. And the, the, the power of saying no, you know, for, for people, for people pleasers, that power of saying no isn't an easy place to arrive at. I know for myself it wasn't. And when you actually start putting in those boundaries, I suppose it's You had— you lacked boundaries and everyone else was more important than you.

Yes, because that's how I was— what I was taught. I'm not important, but everyone else is, right? And I didn't have boundaries, and I didn't know you could say no to work things. Like, legitimately, I did not know.

Well, you know, until you actually— and unless you do actually have those boundaries and you didn't experience the type of trauma that you did, um, it would come natural to other people. Like, I know so many, so many friends and so many family members, etc., it just comes natural to go, no, I'm not going to do that, or no, that doesn't feel good, no, that doesn't sit right with me. I was like you. I couldn't say those words. Mine was always, whatever you want, or, if that's right for you, or not engaging in conflict, not wanting to offend, not speaking up for yourself. Were they all the things that you were experiencing? Were you still experiencing that whilst you were going through treatment, or did you have more of an aha moment? When you got sick? No.

You know, while I was in the midst of the majority of my treatments, I—

I—

you— there's this weird thing that happens to a lot of women. I'm not— I'm not an anomaly, but you want to be the good patient. You want to be the best patient, quote unquote. And I say that because you want to follow and do everything they say to a T because you're so afraid that if you don't, you're not going to survive. And so it's kind of the same, but it's not because you think your life literally depends on it. And so psychologically, it's a little different because of the trauma, but it's still basically the same thing.

Yeah.

And so I didn't feel like I had autonomy over my body or my time, my persons, my, my, my things. Um, and so it just, I think, kept exacerbating what I was feeling on the inside. I just didn't have the language or the understanding of like, how do I stop it and what am I supposed to do with it?

Really going through that sort of treatment is the ultimate of what you had been experiencing, if I can say. where you had to totally relinquish control and hand that control over to someone else who was saving your life.

Right, right. So that was like 100%.

That was like a higher order of what the pattern that had been playing out. If, if you don't mind, if it's okay, can you speak, uh, a little for our listeners? Um, can you speak a little to the type of treatment and what you went through to be in remission. Yeah.

So I did—

And a stroke as well. What happened there? What happened?

So 4 months into my treatment, one of the drugs called PEG-asparaginase, which is specifically given to ALL patients, I didn't know this at the time. I didn't find this out until about a year ago when I read the full breakdown of my treatment plan. I had cancer in my brain and they never said anything, or if they said it, I don't recall it at all. And I asked my husband about it and he goes, no, I don't remember that. I would remember something like that. So I think they just didn't say it out loud, but it's written on my report as like Little— like, I forget what the language is, but it says like in the brain. And I was like, what? So what it is, is they give you intrathecal chemo. And so they take out fluid in between your spine and then put the chemotherapy in your spine to go directly to your brain. And 4 months into treatment, after one of those treatments, I had a CF leak, which is where the fluid is imbalanced and you basically It's like an extreme version of vertigo. So I couldn't lift my head up. I kept wanting to throw up or fall over. Well, that combination, and then I wasn't drinking or eating for a couple of days straight, basically exacerbated everything into a stroke.

On top of everything.

Yeah. And so I lost function in my left side. I had to relearn how to walk, talk, eat, And all still going through treatment because I wasn't in remission. Yeah. Talk about a humbling experience. I've never experienced something like that. And I knew at some point, like, we all get to that point where we need help, but I definitely didn't think it was going to be at 31. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And so you went for 3 rounds. So you, you had treatment for the leukemia, and in that first round of treatment, you end up having the stroke.

Yeah.

So then you would have stayed in hospital longer for the rehabilitation, I assume?

Yes, I went back into the hospital for 3 weeks, um, and, and that was just initially to address the stroke and get function back so I can go back home. So I still went to outpatient rehab for 8 weeks, 5 days a week, 3 hours every single day, and still went and got chemo in the meantime. And then I thought it was a really bright idea to go back to work while I was still not in treatment, not in remission, still undergoing treatment. Because I wanted to be the good— I don't know, the good employee that didn't miss anything, right? Like, I hadn't missed a day of work in 10 years. Like, now I was missing months.

Yeah.

And that guilt and that pressure and that, that feeling like a burden to everyone really was taking mentally a toll. And so I went back to work and then I finished my treatment protocol. 7 weeks later, I relapsed the first time. My body was no longer responding to chemotherapy. We tried an immunotherapy that basically sent me into cytokine release storm. It's where your body attacks itself from the inside out, tries to kill you. I know, right? It's like ridiculous at this point. So they were like, okay, we have a clinical trial going on. that you can go on, and that's it. And I'm like, how do we get here so fast, right? How do we get to a clinical trial all of a sudden?

Yeah.

And they're like, well, your body's not responding to chemotherapy, and this is the only next course of action available. And we're like, okay. So I do all the testing that is involved in a clinical trial, and they test you for everything. So it takes forever because they need baselines for it. And a week before I was supposed to go on it, the trial got shut down.

Oh my God.

I was like, of course. You give me hope and then you take it away. So then my husband and I at the time looked at the team and we're like, what are our options? They're like, well, we don't really have anything yet. We're like, okay. They're like, there is another clinical trial at a neighboring hospital, but they're like, the trial is full. There's a waitlist. Even if we get you on the waitlist, it doesn't guarantee you qualify for the trial. And I was like, well, how long is that going to take? Because I don't— it doesn't sound like I have a lot of time. So they're like, well, we'll put you on the list. We'll get you on the list and we'll, we'll, you know, we'll figure it out. And I was like, it's not a great plan, but what are you— what do you— what options do you have? And I'm like, maybe we need to start searching like globally and all these things. And the Leukemia and Lymphoma Doctors Conference had just ended, and one of my doctors at the hospital that I went to came back and was like, do you want to try this? Gave my husband and I 2 pieces of research, 2 pages of research, 114 participants. 11 people had what I— the disease that I had specifically. The outcomes were not great. And this immunotherapy was not for my cancer. It was specifically for a different cancer. And they're like, do you want to try it? I was like, it doesn't sound like I have another option. I'm like, you know, so my husband and I debate and I look over at him and I go, after like a couple of days, I go, you know, even if this doesn't help me, it might actually Really help someone else.

What an amazing thought to have whilst you're going through that.

Yeah, because I was like, if I'm gonna die, I'm not like that. I, I would hope a lot because I was— all I was thinking was, I— if I die, it's not going to be for nothing.

That's powerful.

It's going to at least help somebody else.

So you went You did the trial?

Yeah. So, no, I didn't do the trial. So this experimental immunotherapy, they sent me home from the hospital, wrote a letter of compassion to the FDA and the drug manufacturer just to get access to it. And we waited. So 2 months later, they finally said, yes, you can have the drug. And I went through 4 rounds of it. It got me into remission to go to a stem cell transplant. My brother is my donor. I did a stem cell transplant. And then when I thought I was getting better and I was like, oh, I'm just building back stamina and strength and all these things. Meanwhile, they put you through more chemo and 10 rounds of total body radiation for me for my stem cell transplant. So you're like completely depleted of everything. I'm trying to physically recover and 6 months later They're like, your cancer's back. And I was like, what?

That is just unbelievable.

They caught it so early. I was not feeling anything, although I wasn't feeling good.

When you say caught it early, was that the third time you're saying that they caught it? Yeah, the third time. So it had just started coming back.

Yep.

And is that because you went in for like a routine test, like the aftertest?

Yeah. So at that point, because of the stem cell transplant and everything that I had undergone, they were— I was going back to the hospital still once a week for an appointment with my oncology team. So they were— I was getting bloodwork every week, and if I needed platelets and blood, they'd give me those too. So I was going back routinely and it was at one of the routine bloodwork appointments that they were like, it's back. And I— my immediate reaction was like, I looked at my husband, I go, I can't, I can't do this. I don't have it in me anymore. I am not— I go, I'm done. I, I was not prepared. And I don't know how long I cried. My face was down. And he goes, whatever you decide is what we're going to do. And I just was like, I can't. I don't— I'm not physically, mentally— I'm not— this is not where my head was at, right? My head was already focused on getting my life back.

Mm.

And I was like, I can't keep fighting this disease for the rest of my life. I'm like, this isn't a life. And the first thought that popped back into my head as I'm like thinking this in my head is, your dad would be so disappointed in you. Oh, I know. And I was like, oh, of course he comes in, because my dad, like, he showed up every single day, even if it were 5 minutes, to make sure I was okay. Every single day.

Beautiful.

And I was like, oh, of course you're gonna make— you're gonna make me do this again. Now, like, not, not like make me, but like That's who comes into my head. And, and I begrudgingly, I remember even begrudgingly thinking like, fine. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I was like, fine. And that's when I made my deal with the universe. I was like, I'm gonna do this one more time. That's it. We are done. So either you're gonna kill me or you're gonna let me live, but I am not doing this forever. And I go, and this isn't for me. I don't care anymore. I've made my peace. Go, this is for everyone that got me here. Everyone that was here every step of the way. And I picked my head back up. I looked at my husband and I go, okay, I got one more. That's it. We're done. He goes, okay.

The strength. I'm lost for words. I'll be honest. The emotion is Beautiful. The strength is amazing to be able to keep going. And if it's not too hard for you, that's something I was going to ask, is in those moments in hospital, how you— how you must have connected mind to heart. How did you find the strength to keep going and to keep making these decisions? It must have been— can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, a lot of people just give up. They give up on themselves. But I mean, understandable, you'd be exhausted after 3 times. That would be in— you know, I can't even imagine what that would be like to go through. You know, you're incredible. Prior to your 3rd time You've done your first round, then it comes back and you're back in hospital and you're doing your second round. Where did that strength come from in you? From being a people pleaser to now, you know, like a superwoman almost. Where did you find that strength to encourage some of the listeners who just want— who give up. I've spoken to some people that think I just wouldn't do it.

First and foremost, I want to say you have no idea what lengths you will go to when your back's up against a wall.

Yeah, yeah.

You have no idea what you can do when you feel like you have no other option. And this is something that I tapped into, I think, I learned even from when I was in high school and I couldn't control this person telling me I'm a horrible person and I'm all these things that I know I'm not. That was anger, but this was different. Like, each time I think there was, there was like this, this deep level of like What can you do is what I kept asking myself. Because you don't know. You don't know the outcome, right? Like, but what can you do? I focused on, on getting up, showering, all the little daily things that like might sound kind of boring, but they kept me grounded and tied to this earth and not going in a million directions one way or the other. And it was always like, what can you do? Well, when I had my stroke, I was like, okay, to get out of the hospital, you need to learn how to tie your shoe because that means you can bend down. That means you can balance. That means you could put on a sock. It means you could put on a shoe. Like, just learn how to tie your shoe. That means your digits are working, right? Like, so I focused on so much of what I could do.

Hmm.

And I, and I didn't focus on what was not in my control.

That's amazing.

And I just doubled down on like, okay, I can't control if it comes back or not, but I can control if I'm physically, mentally, and emotionally strong enough to keep fighting. Because that third time when they told me and I wanted to give up, I was like, I'm not going to put myself in that position ever again, to mentally want to give up or physically not feel like I can do this.

Mm.

So that was like, from that point on, I was like, I— you are going to get your body strong. Your mind's going to be in a different place. And emotionally, you're going to take care of everything because we are not doing this again. And I made that promise to myself. I made promises to myself along the way that when you get done, these are the things you're going to do. And I've kept those promises.

That's fantastic. I love the way they were, they were future-focused. So being always—

Yeah.

Being future-focused means that you had a plan. It means you were going to keep working towards something. They weren't in the present. They weren't like, oh, I can't, I'm not, I'm here now. I love the way everything was. I am— that is, you're saying I'm surviving this. And I'm gonna move forward and I'm gonna back myself. I love your story so much because it's about— I talk about on this podcast, on my website, everything like that is about people backing themselves. You have to have that internal courage to back yourself when something like this happens, because if you don't, who's going to, right? If you're not going to look after yourself and stand up for yourself Just like the people pleaser didn't. Well, then who is going to do it for you?

Right.

Yeah. And like, that's what I love about you, is that you've done it. You backed yourself, and look where you are. One of the things that I find really kind of frustrating about the healthcare system— and I, I don't blame the healthcare system here Because it's it's it's a broader system here. It's a broader problem. It's not doctor focused. I know when I've had things happen to me, I've asked specialists. And this is what I'm curious about knowing with you. You have your treatment. Like you went in for cancer. You had your treatment. You went into remission. Third time. So third time you're now here. But what I find difficult is the ending of the treatment to then starting your new life, or the ending of the treatment to then knowing what to do, that your body's different. Like, I had half a thyroid removed. My body's never been the same. And when I asked the specialist, oh, what about if I have symptoms? He goes, you don't speak to me about that. And so it's this part of being left on your own, it's being left not knowing what to do. When you finish your treatment, was there anything for you, or were you left just to navigate that void between, okay, treatment's finished, we've saved your life, and now off you go? How did you know?

Yeah.

How did you navigate that space?

So once I got back into remission after the immunotherapy, I thought we were going to do another stem cell transplant, right? Like, I thought that was the goal. And they were like, no, we're just going to wait. And I'm like, okay, I don't like this plan. This isn't a great plan. And just wait and see if it comes back. Like, this is not— are you just waiting for me to die again? Like, what's happening?

Yeah.

You know? And then about 6 months into waiting, I finally worked up the courage and was like, do you think I can go live life again? And they— my medical team, they're great. They looked at me and they're like, yeah, why not? And I was like, I don't know, because you guys, like, haven't really given me clear direction on if it's coming back or not or any insight into that. And they're like, yeah, because we don't know. And I was like, okay, great. So how do I do that? Like, how do I, how do I get my life back? And they're like, we don't know. And I was like, they literally said we don't know. And I was like, that's not helpful. And that's, you know, I was already in therapy at that time, but like, that exacerbated how I felt on the inside was like disappointment from our, our system failing us.

Mm-hmm.

And that, that internal anger that I felt. I was— it pissed me off, quite frankly. Sorry, I don't, I don't know if I can swear or not. No, that's fine. But it, it did, right? Like, that same fuel got lit in me again that was there in high school, and I was like, this is wrong. This is so wrong. And so as a byproduct of what I did for myself, like, I had to figure out what to do, right? Like, I was in therapy. It wasn't enough. I knew how to physically recover, and it still wasn't enough. I was like, okay, well, what else? Like, I just kept searching for answers to fix myself. And then the more I shared with— about it openly and publicly, about not only what I was doing but the struggle of figuring it out, the more I was like, oh, I'm not alone. Because I thought I was the only one that felt that way, like the disappointment between being done with treatment and then Figure it out. I thought everyone else was getting this level of care. I wasn't somehow. I don't know why I thought that, and I, I, I, I was wrong. It's everyone, and it's globally. It's not just, uh, where you're at or where I'm at. It's everywhere. The system is letting us down.

There is such a void between the two where people are left confused.

Yeah.

That is a really— that's the really hard space. That— and it's, and it's a big, it's a big void that I just don't think's been addressed. And that will lead me to ask you, is that why you started? Is that why you developed the business that you're in? Is that why you became a yoga teacher or Reiki, to start was it first to heal yourself, and then you actually recognized where people were struggling after, you know, having— well, you deal with people with cancer, so after the treatment, and then they're going, well, I'm not the same. And maybe some people can't do the same things, or they don't know emotionally how to move forward, you know, because it's quite traumatic. It's a— I think people underestimate that when you go through a major, um, health concern, how traumatic that actually is and the effect. And, and, you know, again, trauma equals stress. You don't want to be repeating the same patterns, but unless you have the tools and maybe the roadmap of how to move forward, it's easy to be stuck.

Yeah. And selfishly, yes, I did do a lot of these to help myself, right? Like, especially the ones in the beginning. Now I'm like, oh, this would be really helpful to know for myself, yes, but more so for like my clients. I just, I'm a lifelong learner, so I'll never stop picking up certificates and education in some form or fashion. But yeah, I selfishly was trying to fix myself and heal myself and figure out the missing pieces of how to, how to navigate life again.

Hmm.

And as a byproduct, I, I— the more I was talking about it openly, more women were like, how did you do it? But how did you do it? What did you do? Like, they wanted more specificity. And I was like, oh, like, I can maybe actually help people. And so I started with just like, okay, this is how you can physically recover. Because in my mind, that to me was by far the easiest thing to do.

Yes.

And then the emotional part. But so I started just doing the physical recovery. And then I realized I was running into roadblocks, right? Where people were just logically going, yes, I know I need to do all these things. And I could do those. But then they would start breaking down, right? Like something would get in their way and they would stop, or they wouldn't want to do it to begin with. Like they had no motivation, even though we have all the motivation in the world. And that's when I was like, it's the mental and emotional components that I need to keep adding to it. And so I, I feel like after that first, like, initial, like, 6 months I figured out like it's a whole body approach and it's got to be. We're a whole person. Like, we're not just the food we eat, we're not just the exercise we do. We are— it's— we are a mind, a body, and a soul.

Absolutely, absolutely. And obviously, as I was doing a bit of research around your experience, I noticed you talk a little bit about it's not so much the trauma that's the issue of it is, is you wrote how we internalize that trauma. That's what I find sort of fascinating. I think that's what people need to hear. Can you speak a little bit to that?

Yeah, so like it's with any trauma, big T trauma, little t trauma, right? It's how we internalize it. And the best example that I can give to that is like, uh, especially when it comes to like little t trauma Like, little t traumas, like, you know, the boy down the street makes fun of you and says you have a big forehead. But from that moment on, you always have bangs because you internalize that conversation to go, I have a big forehead. I got to cover it up because my forehead's so big. I don't want anyone to see it because it's that big, right? Like, it's little, little tiny things that add up to big, big, big belief systems in ourselves, right? And it's how we internalize that experience. My coping mechanisms weren't— they got me through treatment. They were definitely not working afterward.

Yeah.

So all those coping mechanisms that I learned, though, helped me keep my head down and focused on getting better. But they didn't help me when I was better.

Absolutely, absolutely. And obviously what happened to you and the trauma of having this cancer, that catapulted you into your own personal growth and developing— I believe you've got a course that you've developed that helps women. Is it women-specific?

I, um, it's— it can be for men, but I find I work with only women 99.9% of the time. I'll get a man every now and again, but it's really about women are more keen to open up and talk about the mental and emotional effects versus men are a little bit more shut down when it comes to that, which is unfortunate because I think they probably need it more than we do.

Yes.

Just a little bit. Just a little bit.

They're the worst. Not meaning to generalize, But they are the worst when it comes to going to the doctor, to having anything. I mean, my husband had a terrible health scare at the beginning of last year, and it took me a week just to get him to the doctor because I'm okay. No, it was every reason under the sun. So we digress on that. But can you speak a little into what is this program and You know, if, if someone wants to, uh, come in and speak to you about the program, what, what does it do for them?

So it's a 13-week survivorship program. We address the mind, the body, and the emotional, um, and mental effects that this has on you in your life. Um, it— they can expect to learn how to process their emotions. They will find a new path forward. They will learn how to build back their confidence up, not only in themselves but their bodies. We do a lot of work that's around— because there's so much disassociation from your body— about learning how to be with your body again and how to love it. Because women have a really— I wouldn't say it's an unhealthy relationship with their body to begin with, and cancer can exacerbate a lot of that.

Mm-hmm.

And so there's that. We definitely— we address the fear and the anxiety. Like, how do you— what are natural holistic things that you can do every single day that will help that fear and that anxiety start to go away? You know, um, and there's also nutrition, and there's always all— there's practical things inside of there as well. How do you plan for a future? You know, what is, what is it that you even want to do? There's a whole module on purpose and, and meaning for you, you know, and figuring out what it is you want to do.

Um, that— it sounds brilliant, and it sounds very comprehensive and holistic, and it also Seems like you're— you've tapped into what we just spoke about previously, about that void between leaving hospital or the operation or whatever it is that you've had, and then moving forward and you're feeling confused. Like, yeah, where do I go? What do I do? Or how do I feel about myself again? How do I recognize myself? Like, sometimes I'm you can come out feeling a bit fractured towards your own body, or angry at yourself that this has happened, you know, to— some people go, this, you know, I allowed this to happen to me, etc., right?

Yeah.

So this, this program sounds like it definitely helps people emotionally, physically, on all levels, which is Beautiful. To end, I would like to— if you could possibly tell our listeners, what were some of the most helpful things that you did, or what people did for you post your cancer treatment? And maybe we'll see—

Afterward?

Yeah. What are some of the things that you personally did that you found the most helpful? In the immediate?

I would say, um, do not get stuck. And what do I mean by that? Like, we have the ability to go, well, I'm done, I need to just rest and, you know, let life happen for a while, and then I'll, I'll pick myself back up. That when you, when you let yourself Down, like, you know, talk about a hill on the way down from the hill. You can get stuck in that chasm, and it's hard to start walking back up the next hill, right? The hill is life, right? Well, we have to get back into it. And it's about forging a new path. And I think taking action before you quote unquote think you're ready is when you need to take action, because if you wait too long, you're not going to And you're just gonna get stuck. You know, I've worked with women who are 15 years out from surviving, and they're like, I wish I had this 15 years ago. Um, yeah, because mentally and emotionally they were stuck in that chasm.

So they were stuck in the past. They were still stuck post-treatment and they hadn't moved forward, right?

But they were white-knuckling through life because they were like, well, I've got kids and I've got things and I've got all these things. It's like, no, do you realize what you just went through is one of the most traumatic events you can go through in your life? Why are you just brushing it off like nothing happened?

And so you help— so you help the women acknowledge and give respect to the process that they've been through and allowing them to— because it wasn't that One of the situations for you in the beginning, you were given— the signs were there, but you weren't aware or awake enough to realize. And so you can come out and you've been given this huge life lesson, and then we go back into our old patterns, right?

Right.

And that's what— right, I'm assuming that your course helps people reset that.

Exactly. Like, you know, we have the ability to learn the lesson or not. And it's, it's, you know, there's a beautiful quote, uh, what we don't repair, we repeat.

I love that. That is—

It's not mine. I wish I came up with it. It's brilliant.

It's one of those Donna—

I know.

Casey, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show. Honestly, I feel so honored that you felt safe enough to share your story. It was— it has— it's emotionally, it's really moved me a lot. I've been very moved by your story, by your strength, and by all your wisdom that you've been able to share on this session to help other people going through what you've gone through. It doesn't have to be Exactly. Your cancer, it doesn't have to be cancer, it can be anything. But take, take the wisdom and the strength that you've developed and, you know, move forward with your life. And hopefully— I encourage everyone to check the show notes because to be able to get in contact with Casey, everything will be there. And if anyone's gone through a similar journey, please book in. Do yourself the favor. We need to move forward. We need to change. You know, things change when we change. It has been such a pleasure. Thank you, Casey. Thank you so much.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. I would love to know what was the biggest insight or aha moment You got from this interview, so you can now speak up, take action, and make informed decisions for your health. And if you like this episode, get instant access to your free ebook, Alternative Wisdom: Taking Back Control of Your Health, at life-onus.com.