Emotional Eating Is Ruining Your Health—Here’s How to Stop

Do you emotionally eat when upset, stressed, or bored, and now have a narrative in your head that may be reinforcing guilt instead of pleasure? Saying to ourselves, I shouldn't eat this, just this once, I'll start again tomorrow, is more damaging than most of us are aware of. Our language around food can either support our success or sabotage us constantly. Today you'll learn how to break free from this cycle and take control of emotional Eating with Fiona Kane, a nutritional medicine practitioner and a mind-body eating coach. Hello and welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, a podcast to raise your awareness, decisions, and voice for alternative practices so you can take back control of your health. I'm Rita De Michele, your host, a mindset and empowerment coach and the founder of the Onus platform. Join me each week so you can create the health of your dreams. Welcome, Fiona.

Hi, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Oh, it's good to have you. And what a subject we're going to be talking about. You know, I was thinking about it when I was preparing for this episode that there is such a deeper reason Why the diet industry is filled with failed weight loss goals, because it never actually addresses the root problem, right? What you're going to be talking about. So let's start with what I think is one of the major root problems, is the emotions and why we emotionally eat.

Yes, well, if you think about it, it often begins even when we're much younger, when we're children. And my experience living in Australia anyway, I can't speak for everywhere, but my experience is when a small child gets upset, you know, crying a lot, a bit out of control or whatever, often what the parent does— well-meaning, well-meaning— but what the parent does is give them a chocolate or a lolly or an ice cream or something to calm them down and to stop them from crying. And so very, very quickly we learn that a really, really quick way of changing our behaviour or changing that feeling or numbing that feeling is with some sort of sugar or some sort of food. What we also learn is it's not okay to have really strong feelings and particularly not okay to have them in public. So we learned it's not okay to have the feeling and that food is a really fast way to make it go away or dampen it down or put it on hold or whatever it is that we're doing with that food. So in our society, we actually get very strong messages from a very young age that food can be the solution for these issues and that we're not allowed to have the feelings. And, uh, and it pretty much goes from there, but we have a society where Really, I would say that we're generally very uncomfortable with strong feelings in our society, and so that if you can just make them go away somehow, then, then you do. And food is a very relatively socially acceptable and obviously legal way of doing it.

Yeah, that's really good. Oh, I love that last point that you just said then, that it is actually a legal, a legal way of doing it.

Yeah, yeah, as opposed to drugs or drinking too much or all sorts of other things, addictions and things that people can have. Uh, well, food is legal and, you know, you can access it, socially acceptable. So it's kind of an easy way to, uh, to manage our emotions.

Yeah, it's all about, uh, numbing, isn't it? Numbing ourselves to whatever we're feeling or numbing ourselves to the world or to an experience that we've had. You know, maybe we've had a trauma, whatever it is, and instead of tackling that head-on and doing whatever you need to do, whether it's therapy or counseling or whatever, um, it becomes your crutch.

Yes. Yeah. And it's not only about numbing, although numbing is a very common one. What it also is is about pleasure, because you do get that dopamine hit when you, you know, bite into that chocolate or whatever the thing is that you're having. So you do get a pleasure response. And the other thing in our society is I commonly talk to particularly women. I talk to them about what their week looks like. They tell me about their week. There's not one thing they do in that week that is for them or that is for pleasure.

Yeah.

And so when they sit down at night and bite into that chocolate, that is the only thing they do that brings them pleasure. So sometimes it's about that as well. It is actually the only thing that someone does that is pleasurable. And, you know, the last thing I want to do as a practitioner is take that off them if it's the only thing they're doing that they actually get any joy or pleasure in.

Yeah, that's, that's a good point. Because it's also— would you say that for some people who don't feel that they're in control of their life, but they can control that, that that's an area that they can control by saying, I'm going to give myself that, I'm controlling this, I'm the master of this and I will allow myself to eat what I want.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And also, I, you know, in my experience, sometimes, you know, cause I, I, I've got experience with this myself personally, and sometimes I would go towards food and I still do sometimes, by the way, I'm not pretending, oh, I've got it all figured out and I'm perfect. And I don't know if it's just not true. We're human beings, we're imperfect beings, but sometimes I would go for food as a reward. So it's like, I've done this thing. Good on me. I'm going to get to have the food. Or it would be I'd failed at something or had a bad day. Oh, I'm gonna go for the food because I deserve it because I've had such a bad day. Or like all the emotions. So it's pretty much— I had— it was the answer to everything depending on good, bad, everything in between. It was just my answer to, to everything.

Yes. So Fiona, in your experience, how much do you think the diet industry plays into emotional eating, like as in, uh, you have to be this way, you have to look this way, eat this to be X, you know, um, all of those sort of things. And when someone doesn't achieve those goals, or they've tried several diets and they found that that hasn't worked for them, does that then create this cycle back into emotional eating? Because They feel guilty or they don't feel good enough or they haven't achieved.

Exactly it. So essentially it's a self-fulfilling kind of roundabout where they keep coming back to the same place. So what will happen is you'll go on the diet and you'll feel good about yourself initially if you're doing well. And then what will happen is you will, you know, in inverted commas, fail. Like you'll have a sense that you failed or you, you've stuffed up somehow, whatever it is. And then you'll feel a sense of shame because you'll think that— the weird thing is, as human beings, is we think that everybody else has got it figured out except for us, which is like, nobody's got it. Seriously, nobody's gonna figure it out. We just have better or worse at different times, but we think that everyone's got it figured out. So what we think is, okay, there's something wrong with me. And not only is it an internal thing, but it is also an external thing where we are told that it must mean we have no self-control or no self-discipline or blah, blah, blah. So we end up with this internal story about how we don't have what it takes and we're somehow flawed or wrong or bad and we're causing it ourselves. And essentially every time you go into this diet, you go into it with the baggage from before where you already know that you're a failure, you already know that you can't do it, you already know that you're somehow terribly flawed. And then over and over you get confirmation of what you know to be true. So you're just continuing getting this confirmation that you are a failure and that you are shameful and you have no self-control. And that's a story that we tell ourselves often. It's often the story we get from outside and from the diet industry. And it sort of just becomes self-fulfilling and it just builds. It's like a snowball. It gets bigger and bigger as it rolls down because we just keep— we continually get proof of what we believe to be true. Absolutely.

So that makes me think about when we compare ourselves. That's that same cycle, isn't it? The comparison that would make us feel like a failure and drive us— like, we can say, oh, my friend did the exact same diet and she's lost 15 kilos. I did it and I can't budge a kilo.

Yes.

You know, it's that comparison. Why aren't I able to do it? I'm not good enough. Or what's wrong with my body, etc.? Would actually— would that propel us into this same sort of shame, guilt, emotional eating cycle?

Yes, definitely. And, you know, and I know in my childhood, in my teen years, uh, everyone that you saw in magazines and on television and everywhere else, almost they were all perfect and super thin and all that sort of stuff. So you would get that image of that's You know, to be successful in life, that's what you had to look like. But absolutely. And we actually sort of, sometimes we egg each other on in friendship groups too. It's kind of a bit weird if you see a friendship group of women, particularly women, and it's been a group of women. We, when we meet together so commonly over here, or I've been in it myself, where everyone's in a different stage in the diet cycle, either they've given up the diet or they've successfully done the diet and they're feeling really good about themselves, or they're just about to start one. maybe they're doing one, but we're all at different stages of the I hate my body and I've got to fix it kind of place in diets. And that person sort of has done keto and that worked really, really well. And the other person's done something else and the other person's become a bit— I know, whatever they're doing, they're all doing something different. And, uh, and so we, we kind of propel it within our friendship groups as well because we're all somewhere on this— not all of us, but many of us are on this roundabout And so we— it sort of becomes almost a bonding thing in friendship groups.

Yeah, gee, that's a really good point, which sort of propels us into that body image also, as in the comparison, you know, what would— like you were saying, what we're meant to look like. My friend is thinner than me, that person in the magazine is thinner than me, I've got a really heavy build, you know, like we start. So how much does our perception of our body image plays into, uh, emotional eating?

It's huge. And we— and it's not just like, you know, it used to always be about being thin, and when I was younger it was Twiggy or whatever. And then, then we've kind of gone through the Kardashian phase or whatever, but there's just different phases where different things are in, in fashion, right? And how many women have, you know, huge bottom and, and, and huge boobs and like a tiny, tiny little waist that just isn't there. It's just, you know, how many women are born that way? And I would argue that maybe some of those women aren't born that way as well. But, you know, and also we've got filters now. I don't know if you've seen, like, a lot of young girls and things. When we grew up, we didn't really have cameras, or not much, because they were quite expensive and film was expensive. And, you know, you see photos weren't that common. But these kids grow up with these cameras that where they can take in photos and videos and whatever constantly. And so they grow up constantly looking at their face, looking at themselves, whereas we kind of didn't really have that, or you kind of had a mirror at home or something, but you weren't constantly looking at yourself. Well, they are. And so the other thing too is they're seeing that they use all these weird filters. And so now actually when they go to plastic surgeons and they want to get things done, they don't want to look like— we want to look like, I don't know, Elle Macpherson or whoever it was, the latest supermodel. Well, they want to look like some, um, some image that's like an AI-generated thing, or, or it's like a manga, manga comic kind of thing. But so it's sort of something that's kind of not human and not— doesn't even exist. So it was bad enough when we wanted to look like some woman who didn't really exist like that all of the time, or she was one of nature's rare beauties or something, and, you know, she was they, you know, play around with the photo and Photoshop and make her look better. But now actually we want to look like things that don't even exist. And because these girls look at themselves through filters all of the time, they've got a really— you know, if you're only looking at yourself through the filter that makes your skin good and all that kind of stuff, and then you turn around and see yourself in real life, it must be quite a shock that you don't look like what you want to look like or what you think you should look like.

Exactly. And for some women, not all, that's when they turn to food.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's just easy and it's there. And we have these strong emotions that we don't know what to do with, and food is the place we go to. And sometimes when we go to food, it's got nothing to do— like, it's not necessarily a direct link between body image and the food. There's a whole bunch of reasons why we will go to food. But ultimately, once we do go to food as the answer, if we're doing it on a regular basis, most of us, that will affect our health or it will affect our body or our body shape, and then that will contribute to then feeling bad about ourselves and the cycle continues.

Yes, because you can— I'm already getting a picture of, you know, like a distorted body image or the desire for a body image that's unattainable for that particular person's build or genetic makeup, and then they've tried X amount of diets and they haven't worked. So you can— I'm already getting a picture of this give up. What's the point? I may as well just eat, you know, just give myself what I want then.

Yes. Yeah. And that's exactly what happens. And so I understand where that comes from. Um, and then to add to that, and this is a whole, probably a whole other topic, but there's a lot of issues around in regards to weight and weight loss. There's a lot of things that affect weight. And we do know that now I should— we are changing genetically. So I think there are some bigger challenges around weight and weight loss and body size that we're having now that we didn't used to have. And I think that some of those relate to whether it could be xenoestrogens in the systems and, you know, polluted pollution and all sorts of other toxins and whatever it is that have now affected us genetically. And so I think that there's so much going on in regards to what can affect our weight and so many extra challenges. And it's always coming back down to, you know, no, you're a glutton. No, you're a sloth. That's the only reason you could be overweight. And there's just so much, so much more complicated than that. Yes, what we eat matters and, and taking responsibility and eating well and all of that. Of course it matters, but there's just lots of aspects and lots of health reasons why people might be having challenges with weight. And, but we always bring it back to, no, if you're overweight, you're a glutton or a sloth or both. And so that just, uh, you know, keeps us in the same place.

Yes, absolutely. It's that— it's a lot of shaming goes around it.

Yes.

Because people, you know, even though we have all that information around the what's in plastic and in our skincare and, you know, the chemicals in our household products affect our hormones and you know, putting on weight, you know, our liver function, all the rest of it. I think the general public still look at that as excuse-making, like what you were saying. It's not real. It's just because, you know, you have to eat less, move more, in and out. That's all it is.

Yes.

Yeah.

And like, I think that's part of it. And I'm not sort of denying science around these things, that there is a certain truth to that. But there's a lot of layers to this and there's a lot of Uh, there's a lot of layers in regards to actual health, and there's also then the added layers of the emotional stuff that comes along with this as well.

Absolutely. So speaking of the emotional stuff, let's get on to which— what is something you seem to really specialize in, and that's around the self-talk, the powerful language that we use around food. Can you speak into that a little bit?

Yes, yes. So there's so many layers of this. I mean, those women I told you who were having lunch together and talking about their diets, what's quite quite funny or quite tragic, whichever way you want to look at it, when they go to order their meals. They will say, well, I'm on a diet, so I'm going to have salad or whatever. Or, oh, I've been, I've been really good, so I'm going to have the ice cream. Or, I've been really bad, so I— so we actually use a lot of these good and bad language around food. And we, again, we use that in groups, particularly women. A guy will just go up and say, I want a steak sandwich, thanks. Yeah. Say, I'm going to have this, and she'll explain to her girlfriends why somehow needing, seeking that validation or approval from her girlfriends that it's okay to have the ice cream or it's okay to have the salad or whatever the choice is. But we do put a lot of, a lot of emotion and good and bad sort of language around behavioral language around food. And it's just so not healthy when we talk about it in terms of good and bad and wrong and right. And you know, that, that again, that adds to that, uh, that feelings of shame when we're supposedly getting it wrong. But it also puts us in a place where it's almost sort of childlike because, oh, I've been bad. How old are you, 5? But it does, it puts us in this child— and when we're in that childlike place, we're a bit more, um, in, in our mind, we're a bit more rebellious and a bit more, oh, not caring about the consequences. And a bit more to sort of— someone says, oh, you should eat healthy. We're, no, no, I'm going to You know, go away, I'm going to eat what I want.

So, so going on from what you were saying, doing that with our friends, almost asking for permission to have that ice cream, or that I want to have that dessert but no one else is having it, is creating that narrative in our head. I mean, even I have gone at certain times Oh, I'm going to have this dessert. I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't, but I'm just going to. I just want it today. It's all that I shouldn't, I couldn't, why am I— it's all of that that creates this compounding, this emotional eating, is it?

Yes, yes it is, because it's, it's what it is doing is it's just constantly using these really strong emotive words as well. That sort of puts us in our place. And when we use a lot of emotional language around food, that is a real problem because it does, it just keeps coming back to the same thing. So, and I look, I use this language myself sometimes. I'll hear myself saying it and I'll think, oh goodness, you teach this, Fiona, what are you doing? I use it as well. But when we use this language, what we do is we just stay in this place of shame and blame and judgment and all of that sort of And we, we've got to see what— when we choose food, we just need, we need to take ownership. So what I say to people is, if you go out and you want to have the ice cream, go and have the ice cream and enjoy it. If you actually allow yourself just to choose it and just to have it and not to ask for any forgiveness or explain or any of that kind of stuff, generally speaking, we are fine. But when we do all the shame, blame, and judgment around it, that's actually what causes us to have more of the emotional dysregulation, which causes us to want more of that kind of food. So it's actually the way we talk about it and the way we talk— the way we treat ourselves around it is what causes the dysregulation in our emotion and what causes the behavior in the first place. So I just take ownership. If you really want to have ice cream, have ice cream. And enjoy it. But it's because we put so much shame around it and so much language around it, that's actually what causes a problem in the first place.

Yeah, gee, that's a good point. That really is. And Fiona, so we've identified that the self-talk and the type of languaging that we use, which is, you know, what you've mentioned around shame and guilt and shouldn'ts and all of that sort of Uh, language. What is some of the positive language that people can adopt to start reframing what they're saying to themselves?

Yeah, so I would say a few things. So one is, instead of saying I'm on a diet, I always encourage my clients to say I'm on a food adventure.

Oh, I like that.

So essentially it's a food adventure to find out what nourishes me. So I'm making a choice to nourish myself and I'm choosing this food because it nourishes me. And so I talk a lot about nourishment with my clients and a lot of the time with, with food too, it's actually just a very scientific thing. So it's kind of, I want to have this meal because I know that when I eat this food that I feel really balanced for the rest of the afternoon and I feel really good. As opposed to I should have this food because it's good for me and it's healthy and I'm supposed to. So when we kind of connect the food to how we feel and our performance, and it's a very scientific— I'm going to have this salad with some chicken because I know that that will make me feel good and energetic throughout the afternoon. That's just— there's no emotion attached to that, and that's a good thing that there's no emotion attached to that. But the other thing that we do is we often label ourselves. So we say, I'm an emotional eater. Or I'm a food addict, or I, I'm a binge eater, or we just name ourselves something. And so the other thing in regards to language is to actually separate yourself from your behavior. So you can say, sometimes I emotionally eat, or sometimes I binge eat, or sometimes I feel like I'm addicted to whatever it is. But it's one thing to say that it's an action that you do sometimes. It's another thing to say that you are the thing, because when you say you are the thing, like if I am an emotional eater, there's nothing I can do about that because it's who I am. And it's not who I am, it's actually just a behavior. And so why can't I change a behavior? I can. So I need to— we need to be aware of how we label what we do around food Because we label it in such a way that we fence ourselves in and to keep repeating the behavior.

Wow, wow, that is so true. So when you say about taking ownership, it is taking ownership of the behavior, not taking ownership of making I'm an emotional eater your identity.

Yeah, well, it's not about fixing you because you're so flawed and so bad. It's actually just about saying, okay, I emotionally eat sometimes. All right, what is emotional eating? Well, it's data. It's information. It's information that you're getting to tell you that something's not quite right. Now, if you're doing it occasionally, it's fine. But if you're doing it all of the time and it's affecting your health, then it's information that something's not quite right. So now I have this data, now I have this information, I can start to look at what's going on.

Mm-hmm.

So is it because I have no joy in my life? Is it because I'm trying to numb a situation? What's going on? But I can explore that a little bit now and know that, okay, that was the information for me, you know, a sign or symptom as it were, to let me know that something's not quite right. And it's not an indication that I'm flawed and terrible and bad. It's just an indication that I'm actually doing a behavior that's not helping me, and I wonder why.

It's exploring those emotions, isn't it?

It's becoming curious rather than just being judgmental. Be curious.

That is, you know, I just did a podcast before this one which was, you know, very much about language as well, and she stressed curiosity as well. And I'm finding that across the board curiosity keeps coming up as a major player. So it's about replacing judgment with curiosity.

Yes, exactly. Because if we go straight to judgment, then we're labeling ourselves and we're abusing ourselves and all the rest of it. But if we kind of curiously just say, okay, I've noticed that this week I have been doing a lot of emotional eating, I wonder what that's trying to tell me. Exploring that, and it tells me I'm overworked, or, you know, I'm exhausted, or I'm not being heard, or I'm just feeling really sad because of whatever the thing is, right? But it's just sort of being curious about what's going on. So instead of turning the behavior into who you are, labeling it and hating on yourself, how about just notice that it's a behavior and that it's a sign, it's a signal, and Be curious.

Yes, it really helps to, uh, reframe and drop that good-bad, like this is good food, this is bad food, and I'm not allowed to go near the bad, what's considered bad food. Whereas a lot of messaging now on, you know, we see on social media where we get a lot of our information from, is that what we considered bad, some people say isn't bad. You know, like you've got how many diets of ketos with all the fat? Well, before, in like in the '70s, '80s, etc., fat was like demonized.

Yes.

Yeah, but I'm not sure that people's emotions or their narrative in their head has— who grew up then has changed. They still view it as good and bad.

Oh, every single TV show, movie, whatever, almost I don't know how many times I can tell you that I've seen them, they have bacon and eggs and they talk about their arteries. And it's not true, but I see that in every single— still, so it's still the thing that everyone says. But look, again, we've got lots of stories around food. And that's why I go back to the, is it nourishing me? Because ultimately, is it nourishing you? Right? So there's different diets that work for different people. And different diets work for us at different times in our lives. So there's not one perfect diet. So when you— when the question is, is it nourishing me? It just lets all of that stuff go, right? So are you well when you eat that way? Do you feel well? What are your blood tests like when you go to your doctor? Is it working for you? So if it's working for you, it's nourishing you, well then that's the right diet for you. But that That sort of allows you to let go of all the, you know, is it evil, bad, whatever. And, you know, sometimes, you know, the ice cream, the way I put it, the way I talk to my clients about it, it is nourishing. It's nourishing the soul maybe a little bit more than the body. And so sometimes we just look at balancing out those— what's nourishing my body and maybe what's nourishing my soul— to get the balance right. And that looks different for different people.

Absolutely. I once had a very wise mentor many years ago, and he would say it's the 80/20 principle. Like, don't look for perfection because the perfection is going to set you up for failure. That failure is going to drive you to emotionally eat. So 80% of the time you're doing and eating what feels right for you. And 20% of the time is your go out or your you know you may just want that chocolate, you know have it. But there's no guilt where the 80/20 sits.

Yes, exactly. And that's why you do it intentionally. If you do it intentionally, it doesn't have all the emotion around it. It's just I want to have the thing and I'm going to have the thing and I'm going to really enjoy it. And then the rest of the time you make better choices for yourself. But when you do it, I don't feel cool. couldn't or shouldn't or got all that language. It doesn't help. And, you know, your friend is right about the perfectionism. So perfectionism is one of the things that drives this stuff as well, because what we think we're doing is we think, oh, I'm going to do this perfectly. And of course we don't because we're not perfect and we mess it up and then we hate on ourselves. And what we do is we use perfectionism as kind of useful because perfectionism is actually a get out of jail free card. Because it gives you the opportunity to know that you can quit before you even start, because you know you can't do it perfectly anyway.

Mm-hmm.

Also, so yeah, it is, it's, you can't do it perfectly. So you already got the get out of jail free card. So, you know, before you even start the diet that you're going to quit it, you know. But the other thing too is, but it's also another reason to hate on yourself because you did it wrong somehow. And you're human. It's not going to be perfect. So when I talk to my clients about going into, you know, new lifestyle, dietary habits, whatever it is, I always just talk about, you know, you're not on track, you're not off track. It's only ever about your next choice because we get caught up on, you know, either I'm on or I'm off, or it's good or it's bad, or it's right or it's wrong. And it's, oh, you know, it's just food. And food nourishes us. And if we get the right balance for us, that's great.

Mm-hmm.

Not on or off track. It's only ever about your next choice. Because if it's only about the next choice, we can let go of whatever happened before today, or whatever even just happened 5 minutes ago. Move on. And it's only about your next choice. And if we do that, it makes it simple. But if we say, I've gone off track. Well, somehow that feels huge, and somehow getting back on track feels like it's really hard because I've got to do something really hard and difficult to get back on track. No, you don't. It's just about your next choice.

Yes, then I love that— the next choice. It just takes all the emotion out of it.

Yes.

And just makes it a lot more logical.

Yes.

Like you've clicked in. It's like you've, you've clicked in a bit of sanity around it.

Yes.

You know, because it, it can feel very out of control. Emotional eating can feel very out of control. And what I like about what you said about being intentional, because you, you can go, I'm just going to have this one biscuit. And then all of a sudden you find that you've finished the whole packet and you think, how did that happen? You know, you're almost like you're asleep. You know when people just do things on autopilot?

Yes.

But bringing yourself back, maybe like you were saying, to become more intentional about it. You say, this is what I'm allowing myself and I am going to have 1 or 2 biscuits and that is it.

Yes, it's intentional and, and it's conscious eating. So when you're— what you were talking about before, when you have the whole packet, that's unconscious eating.

Yes.

And that will happen a lot when we deprive ourselves. So if we feel deprived, we want to have stuff. So we— it— the idea is to not feel deprived. And you don't feel deprived if you consciously choose something and you choose what it is. So it might be different for different people. Some people might find it hard to only eat 2 biscuits. That just might be just— they just feel like they just can't do that. And some people can, some people can't. So there might be some other food that you could choose that still feels rewarding to you, but you're able to, to have a smaller amount and you can manage that. We're all a bit different with how we react to different foods or how we feel about different foods. When you do it consciously, you, you're present. You know what you're doing. And generally speaking, when we eat consciously, we don't overdo it because we notice how we're feeling. But when we're eating unconsciously or subconsciously, you know, you're sitting in front of the television or sitting in the car or whatever it is, that's when we don't notice. You can eat a whole lot without realizing because you're just not connecting with your body and you're not noticing. So once we choose to do it consciously— and so the reason they do it unconsciously as well is because they feel shame around it. So instead of just owning it and saying, I really want to have the ice cream, I'm going to have it, they, they feel shame around it. So we just pretend we're not doing it, and then we do twice as much, 10 times as much, whatever it is, because we're not present.

Yeah, that room— that is such a good point because it actually brings me— the thing I thought about with that is, and I don't mean this derogatory whatsoever, it's almost kind of childlike, isn't it? When your partner— say for example, you've asked for a support buddy and maybe you've asked your partner to be your support buddy because you want to be on this particular eating program. And then you go in for the ice cream and your partner says, should you be eating that? Do you find with your clients that some of them will regress and go, you know what? I'm gonna eat it because you've brought it up, and I'm— it's almost like payback to them for saying it, but you're actually doing it to yourself. Do you find that's a pattern?

Yeah, and that's that childlike mode that I was talking about, and that's going to come up. It might be the language that your partner uses, might have nothing to do with your partner. It could be the way that you've been talking to yourself around food. It could be just because you feel extremely deprived And you feel like you've been good all of this time. I've been good. I've been good.

I've been good.

Now I deserve it. That's why I'd like to take all of that language out, because if you just say what I do to my with my clients, I just say okay. So what we do is Friday night is ice cream night or chocolate night or whatever it is, and I choose the one I'm going to have. I have that. I eat that. I enjoy that, and you do it consciously. But when you've been in that language and in that mode of where you feel depressed. deprived or— and using the good and bad language, again, that's child stuff, right? So once we start using that sort of behavioral language, it puts us into that place of being a child. And once we put ourselves into that place, whether we have used the language or someone else does, we act like a child. And so, I know I'm going to eat it all, or don't tell me what I can eat, whatever, you know. So it does— all of that language, whether it be from other people or ourselves or internal language we're using, We use all the language that actually puts in that rebellious childlike mode, and then then it's on. Then we want to eat it all.

Absolutely, it is. It's human behavior, isn't it?

It is. And if you recognize you're doing that, then you I would encourage you to be curious about your language and curious about the language that people around you are using about food, because you'll probably find they're using a lot of that. judgment and emotive language around food.

How important is stress and stress management for emotional eating?

Well, it's hugely important because it's, it's usually why we're doing the eating the food in the first place, right? So what I encourage my clients to do is to create what I call an emotional eating toolbox. And essentially that is, first of all, it's Recognising what, what's going on for you. Like, is it stress? What are you trying to do? You're trying to numb, you're trying to feel better. What is it that you're trying to achieve with the food? What does the food do for you? And once you've identified that, are there other ways of doing that that don't relate to food? So can you watch, you know, you can watch a funny cat video and get, you know, get an oxytocin boost and that makes you feel good, right?

Yes.

Or you can go for a walk. Or you can maybe make a pot of herbal tea and just be very ritualistic around it, put it in a nice pot, nice cup, that sort of thing. Or you might play word games, or you might ring a friend, or like there's a whole bunch of things that you could do. Put on your favourite music, dance around the house, whatever it is. But what are the things that you can do that make you feel the same, or that distract you, or that help you feel calmer, or whatever you're trying to achieve? And so I literally get them to write down a list, all of the things that they could do. And then what you do is you start trying to do those things instead of the food every time. And it takes time. You need to be very patient with yourself. But if you get to a point where maybe you're using your emotional eating toolbox 8 or 9 times out of 10, and then those 1 or 2 times you're doing the ice cream or whatever it is, Well, that's reduced your risk factors around the behavior, hasn't it? And it's reduced the behavior. So you're not perfect, and that's okay. You don't need to be. No point trying to, trying to be because you're not going to be. But you have now reduced your challenges around it by reducing it by 80%. So, you know, I create your emotional eating toolbox. What is it? Why are you going for the food? What are you achieving from it? What else do you have in your life, or can you bring into your life, that can help you feel the same way?

That's great. And I'd like to ask, when it comes to like the underlying causes, we all know now about the gut-brain connection. So how important is a healthy gut microbiome as a driver for our emotions of whether we eat or we don't eat?

Yes, it's very important. And what we have seen in studies is what they do is that mouse studies, if they've found that, you know, depending on what sort of microbiome, what sort of bacteria that they have in their gut, They may be craving food more than if they don't have that bacteria or have different bacteria. But what we also see is that in individuals— if that's why it's worth actually— I'm glad you brought this up. When you're looking at emotional eating, sometimes we are looking at emotions, but sometimes we don't realise it's maybe not caused by an emotional thing, it's caused by a physical thing. So maybe you do have that imbalance of gut bacteria, you've got some sort of bacterial infection, And when we have the wrong gut bacteria, it actually craves sugar because it needs it to reproduce.

Mm-hmm.

And so what happens is you are craving lots and lots of sugar because that bacteria wants to reproduce. And what happens is the more bacteria you make, the more you crave sugar, then you make more and, and so on and so forth. So there could be a physical reason why you're actually going for the sugar. And what happens though, as well, is that the, your gut health does affect your emotions and also the ability to make different enzymes and things like neurotransmitters. So serotonin and melatonin and oxytocin, they're the different neurotransmitters that we have in our brain that help us feel balanced or stable or happy. Well, they're actually made from protein, so you actually need to eat protein foods, but you also need to have the right gut bacteria because the gut bacteria is involved in their formation. But also involved in their ability to absorb the nutrition so that you can make those neurotransmitters. So there can be very physical reasons why you are going for this food and you're feeling emotional and you think it's only or all about the emotions when a lot of it can actually relate to your gut health. So it's vitally important that you address that as well, or if you're doing these other things, they're not working, then you know the missing link might be your gut.

Yeah, that— to know, I think for someone who— and I'll start with, actually, you said the absorption, because if you're not absorbing the nutrients or even breaking them down, well then your body doesn't not always think that you're still hungry, you're starving, because it's registered food but it's not getting the right nutrients it needs to— for building blocks, for survival, etc. And then that propels you to want to eat more because your body's thinking, I didn't get what I need.

Yes. Yes. In fact, the body looks for protein because it needs it for survival. And if it's not getting the protein, so maybe you're not eating it or you're not absorbing it, then yes, it will actually keep you eating until you get the protein. And so that's why one of the reasons why we tell people to have protein with their food, for many reasons, it's used for a million things and it helps balance your blood sugar levels. But also, yes, you will keep looking for it until you get protein. The other issue too is that what happens is if you're really, really stressed, you often will not be absorbing your nutrition because when we get stressed, we go into this fight or flight mode. When we're in that mode, we actually don't make our digestive enzymes and can't just digest the food properly. So being— feeling stressed will also affect the absorption of your nutrients.

Yes. So we've talked about— just continuing on this point, we've spoken about how microbiome can affect how we feel, think, and then be a driver to overeating. Can how we think and our emotions affect our microbiome and perpetuate this cycle?

That's a good question. I suspect it could, and I don't know if it's because directly your thought changes your microbiome or if it's because your thought changes your behavior and then you're eating a certain way and that changes your microbiome. I'm not quite sure. I think that a lot of these things, a lot of this mind-body stuff kind of does work back and forward both ways.

Yes.

Because we even see the same thing with, you know, doing power poses and things like that, that our posture, that when you're in a sort of a poor posture, um, that affects how you feel about yourself. Uh, but when you feel bad about yourself, you often will sit in a poor posture, you know. So it's the same thing. So I suspect it's a similar thing, that your behavior will change if you're being really, really negative, and that will also change what you eat. So yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, well, you know, from what we've spoken about is, you know, we emotionally eat for several reasons. You know, whether it's for pleasure, you know, or there's shame around it, or there's trauma. Um, we have a certain language that we're in that mode. We have a certain language that then makes us feel guilty, or we compare, or we sabotage ourselves. There's been so many things, and now we're speaking about the physiology, the physiology that may do that, and being stress. So I guess trying to do many sort of things like yoga or meditation to reduce our stress and being more mindful and intentional about what we're doing. So what— to finish off today, what are some of the tools that you would recommend that someone could start doing today after listening to this to help reduce their desire to emotionally eat?

Yeah, so there's a couple of things. So the first thing would be before meals, I would encourage you to do a breathing exercise where you breathe in for 4 seconds and out for 7 seconds, and you do that for 1 minute. So that's 6 breaths, in for 4, out for 7, because what that will do is take your body from being in fight or flight and put it in rest and digest. Which is where you need to be to feel calm, but also where you need to be to be able to digest your food.

Mm.

The other thing I would recommend is ensuring that you have protein with every meal, whatever protein you choose, but whether it be vegetarian or whether it be a meat protein, but to have protein with every meal. Because when you have protein with your meals, balances your blood sugar levels, but it's also what your body uses to make a whole bunch of neurotransmitters in your brain that will help you manage And I guess protein also helps you to feel fuller so you don't go into that deprivation mode.

You don't—

Yes, exactly. So if you're dealing with the physical needs of the body— so that's the thing, it's like if we deal with the physical needs, if we rule out the physical issue, then there'll be less of an issue because you're not going to be feeling hungry because you actually are hungry because you're not eating well or you're not eating enough or absorbing your food. So if we kind of rule out the physical needs and make sure we look after ourselves physically, that will reduce how much we would be getting that, those blood sugar drops and then craving food because we've got low blood sugar.

Yes. Look, this really sounds like, you know, it's not a one-time thing. It's a lifestyle change, isn't it?

Yes. Yes, it is.

Yeah. It's not the next fad diet. That's not going to do it for you.

No, no. And it's just getting a feel and over time, that's what I said, a food adventure. Getting a feel for what foods really nourish you, what foods give you energy, make you feel well. Protein would have to be part of it, but different amounts, different ones for different people. That's fine. Eating plenty of colored vegetables, et cetera, because they are what also will feed your microbiome so that you have a nice diverse microbiome. And when you're eating in this way, you'll be really balanced and feeling really good. And it'll really reduce a lot of this emotional Part of the emotional aspect, or at least rule out the physicals looked after. Now what's left over is just looking at the emotional stuff. What's going on there?

Yes. And I think one of the biggest key takeaways is if you want the biscuit, if you want the ice cream, have it. Just drop the guilt.

Yes. Be intentional.

Choose it.

Yeah, choose it. And don't ask for permission. Don't ask for forgiveness. Choose it and enjoy it and then move on.

That, um, that's a key right at the end there. Fiona, thank you for coming on to the show. And for the audience, if you've liked what you've heard about Fiona's emotional eating strategies, please do book in. All the show— all her details will be in the show notes. Fiona, thank you so much for coming on.

My pleasure.

I would love to know what was the biggest insight or aha moment you got from this interview so you can now speak up, take action, and make informed decisions for your health. And if you like this episode, get instant access to your free ebook, Alternative Wisdom: Taking Back Control of Your Health, at life-onus.com.