Living with Narcissistic Abuse: A Story of Survival, Recovery and Finding Inner Strength | Part 1
11 Dec 2024 · 70 min
In this episode of the Beyond Diagnosis podcast, host Rita De Michele interviews survivor and attorney Stephanie Ann about her two decades of experience with narcissistic and domestic abuse. Stephanie recounts her personal history—marrying two emotionally abusive husbands, raising six children, coping with a rare‑genetic‑disorder child, losing homes, and even temporary blindness—while describing the classic cycle of narcissistic abuse: idealization, devaluation, and discard. She explains key concepts such as the narcissist’s grandiose self‑image, lack of empathy, gaslighting, trauma bonding, intermittent reinforcement, and cognitive dissonance. Stephanie shares how she shifted from a victim narrative to a survivor mindset, using tools like Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFT), journaling, boundary work, and reframing self‑worth. The conversation also touches on why empathic, high‑achieving people often attract narcissists, the challenges of setting boundaries, the importance of recognizing patterns, and the ultimate lesson that love cannot change a narcissist; the most loving act is to let go. The episode ends with a powerful message encouraging listeners to do the inner work, renew their minds, and prioritize self‑care over societal expectations.
Chapters
So a narcissist is someone with a disordered personality. They have multiple layers of protective self that they have created over time to create this person, this persona of who they are.
Hmm.
And so when you first meet them in the beginning, this is why it is so difficult and so challenging to know if someone is a narcissist that you are going on a date with. Because they put on their best self.
Yeah.
And then they become whomever you want them to become.
Hello and welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, a podcast to raise your awareness, decisions, and voice for alternative practices so you can take back control of your health. I'm Rita De Michele, Your host, a mindset and empowerment coach, and the founder of the Onus platform. Join me each week so you can create the health of your dreams. In today's storytelling episode, you'll meet a woman who is now thriving after narcissistic abuse. Stephanie Ann shares her story of domestic violence and relationship trauma to breaking free and now living vibrantly. Stay with us to hear how she turned her past struggles into a life filled with joy and empowerment. Wow, welcome to the show, Stephanie.
Thank you so much for having me on your show today.
Oh, it's a pleasure. Wow, narcissistic abuse, domestic violence, ever since— well, it's always been a big issue, uh, if you read the reports on the news, etc. After COVID and during COVID it was soaring. I really hope that this story helps so many women who have found themselves in a position like yourself. And one of the biggest misconceptions around abuse is that people believe that you could have just walked away, or that there's a type who tends to attract these types of relationships. Yet you were an attorney, you were the recipient of the Governor's Award for Advocacy for Survivors. of domestic abuse and an international bestselling author. So if we were going to think of a type, you certainly don't tick that box. What happened? Tell us your story, please.
Yeah, well, you know, I found myself on the floor of my sister's bathroom, just tears streaming down my cheeks, crying out to God, like, Why me? What did I do wrong? Why me? I'm a good mother. I was a good wife. I'm a good person. I've done everything right. Why me? Yet in that moment, I could not see past the pain and suffering that had engulfed my life for almost 20 years. I, and, and then all this stuff that happened just in the past, you know, 5 years. Um, I was married to 2 psychologically and emotionally abusive men. I had a baby born with a very rare genetic disorder. I lost a house in a house fire. I lost a house in a hurricane. I had an ex-husband's ex-wife die of COVID and all of a sudden I had 6 little boys under the age of 14. And, you know, and it's like, wow, why me? Like, what, what'd I do wrong? Why do I keep attracting these men in my life? And, and in that moment as well, I'd lost my eyesight. And so I was blind. I was blind for about 2 months. And, and in that moment, I felt the divine was saying to me, Stephanie, you are not seeing your story through the right lens. You are not seeing. You have been blinded. You've been asleep.
Wow.
And for me, that shift came when I decided to let go of that victim story that I had held onto for so many years. And, you know, when you're stuck in this victim story and this victim mindset, you can't see the lessons. And when you can't see the lessons, you, you don't know how to break those patterns and to end these cycles in your life. And, and you just stay in this, this victim mode of why me? And, you know, for me, that, that shift came when I let go of the why me and I said, what is for me? What is the for me in all of this? How can I be the star of my story instead of this supporting actress? Because it's our story, right? It's our life. We should be the main person. We should be the star. Yet in my story, my 2 abusive ex-husbands were the stars of my story, and I was this background B character in my own story.
Wow, that is super powerful. Like, we've just started this story and I'm like, oh my God, that is so powerful already. What a message, or For our listeners and viewers to hear right at the beginning of your story about being victim, like the why me victim, you know, mentality, to this what is it for me, and to be the driver, like already to be sharing this message that you caught on and went, no, I'm the driver. Wow, I really want to hear more.
Yeah, so, you know, here, here I am Um, I'm a mom, I'm a wife. Um, I had just been through a very tragic discard, and I'll get to what all, all that means. But I was in that— I was in a marriage that I wanted to be in, yet I didn't want to be in. I— in the beginning, it was wonderful, it was perfect, it was everything I could have imagined. Yet when the mask came off and he presented his true self, it was like this. This isn't what I signed up for. But now we're already too deep. We're already too invested in this. And so, okay, well, let's just try to make it work. So let's let's go to to some of the beginning. So I met my my husband in 2019. And he was, he was wonderful. I had manifested him. And how many of us do that? We, we write out the list, right? I wrote out a list. I'd already been in a, in a toxic marriage and with my first husband for 11 years, and we were married for 14. But, you know, um, so I had already been in, in a bad marriage. And so I was ready. I thought I was healed. I was ready to, to find that soulmate that one person. I wanted something solid. And so I threw it out to the universe. I made the list: tall, dark, handsome. I mean, right? That's what we all put on our list. Divorced dad with only little boys. Yeah. And I was very specific, like a divorced dad with little boys the same age as my little boy. So I had 2 little boys at the time. And You know, a businessman. I was very specific and I put it out. And so a week later, I meet a man who checks everything off the list.
Wow.
So, you know, when, when so many people say, well, didn't you know, Stephanie? No, because I had manifested him, right? I put it out there and I got exactly what I wanted. In hindsight now, I can say, yes, the universe gives us everything we want with all the unlearned, unhealed lessons.
Exactly.
It keeps that kid—
listen, it's giving you the lesson, you know, in whatever form.
Yes. And so when you think of, um, what a narcissist is, let me just go into some— a little bit of teaching mode here. But, um, a narcissist, if you remember from like Greek mythology, Narcissus was a man who fell in love with his reflection. He was so enamored with himself that he could not leave the pool. And so a narcissist is someone who has this grandiose sense of self-importance, this preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited wealth, unlimited success, unlimited beauty. They are the most special person in the world, and only you can understand them. No one else has been able to get them, but you can.
Yeah.
And they, uh, have this need for excessive admiration and adoration. They just— they want all your attention. They want all your time. They want all your energy. And sometimes you'll hear people say, well, they're energy vampires. Well, they are, because they will— you will feel guilty if you're not giving them everything they, they want. Like, you get sucked into this Story. And so, but they lack empathy. And so, you know, most people, we can empathize with someone, and empathy means that we can step into the shoes of the person and we can have compassion for that person in that situation. And a typical person can do that. Narcissists can't. Now, they can have this false empathy. They can be empathetic for a time or a moment to get what they need. But these are people who use people to get what they want, and they will use anyone to get whatever they want and whatever they need. They're arrogant. They are envious of everyone. They're so entitled.
Mm.
And, you know, you have to have these traits. And so sometimes I explain it as a cake. You have to have that all— a certain amount of ingredients make up a cake, right? And, you know, baking is an exact science. If I were to remove some of the ingredients from the cake, it would no longer be a cake. Similarly, with a narcissist, you have to have this combination of traits that make up a narcissist. If you were to remove some of the traits, they would no longer be a narcissist, right? So they must have the combination of traits. Otherwise, they're just a Clif Bar or, you know, a bran muffin or something else.
Granola.
They're not a cake. They're granola. They're not a cake. Take. And so, um, so that is a narcissist. They— but they— the, the myth is that they come across as very secure, um, very much that they have this healthy ego, but really they have the most fragile ego. They have the most fragile self-esteem. Anything that you could say to them that would cause a blow to their ego or their self-esteem, I mean, they are very fragile, broken people. So it is almost like they put on their, their best Sunday clothes and then they wait and they morph into that person that you are looking for, if that makes sense.
Absolutely.
So this is why it is— it's very, very difficult to know in the beginning of the relationship if you are dealing with a narcissist, because they mirror your values, they mirror your hobbies, they mirror All the wonderful things about you, they mirror that. And so when you hear them say, you are my soulmate, well, yes, how could they not be my soulmate? They're mirroring me. So in the beginning of my relationship with my first husband, it was exactly like that. He was wonderful. He was kind. Yeah, he was charming. And narcissists are charming. So, you know, red flag number 1, look out for the charm. And I tell people, you know, in law we have this legal phrase, caveat emptor, buyer beware. If it's too good to be true, it is probably too good to be true. And so that's the first phase of the cycle is the idealization. This is where they are charming. They are wonderful. They, um, yeah, they mirror you. And so for me, we, we met online and I thought I was playing it very safe. I'm like, okay, well, maybe if we meet online and we spend a couple months just talking and getting to know each other, I will be protected. Well, how do you know someone is a narcissist or a toxic person when you are just talking Online and you don't see them interact in everyday activity. They can be whomever they want to be online.
They usually have the words.
That's pretty scary.
Yeah, they're very— they're usually very good speakers, aren't they? Very eloquent. They know exactly what to say.
Oh yeah, they know what to say and they know how to make you feel comfortable, how to bring your walls down so that they can really get to know you. And they do. They, in the beginning, it is— they genuinely want to get to know you. They're great listeners because they are stockpiling all of that. They want to know your vulnerabilities. They want to know your insecurities. They want to know what happened in your other relationships. Well, why did they fail? Well, for me, my, my first husband, he was a cheater. So he cheated for, you know, 14 years.
Wow.
Whether it's emotional affairs or physical, I don't know the whole extent. But I do know that when I moved into a new relationship, I wanted to be really trusting. I wanted to be really open because I didn't want to be hypervigilant. I didn't want to be the person that's checking the phone all the time because I was that person in my first marriage. So I didn't want to be that person in my second marriage. And so I, I came with an open mind and a trusting heart.
Hmm.
And how many of us do that? And we believe we found our person and they're saying all the right words. It makes it really easy to fall in love with a person who is mirroring you because you are falling in love with yourself. But you don't know it.
That's powerful.
That's like, it's like a mind blow. And so everything is perfect in the beginning. It's the idolization phase. They're kind, they're wonderful. They're, they're, you know, loving everyone. And he even passed the brother-in-law test. So my brother-in-law is a former Marine. He is a police sergeant. And he passed the brother-in-law test. And so, you know, when I brought him home to meet everyone, everyone loved him. He was wonderful. And, and then so everything progresses quickly. We get married quickly. So we met, fell in love, got married within the same year. That's, that is a lot.
Mm-hmm.
But when you feel like you've met your soulmate, it doesn't, it doesn't matter, right? We're older, we're mature consenting adults. And so you, you don't really think about that. Well, we get married in December 2019. What happens in 2020? The world shuts down. And this is when his mask came off. So again, narcissists, they can hold on to this persona until they get you hooked, whether that is moving in. Getting you pregnant, having something that's a big commitment, getting married. They will be that fake person until they get you hooked and committed. And so we get married, and we had only been married for like three months. The world shuts down. He takes his mask off one day. He's just he's a completely different person. And this is what we call the devaluation phase. This is where the criticism starts to happen. This is where the gaslighting begins and the subtle coercion takes place. This is when you hear people say, well, they had a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde personality. Now I'm walking on eggshells because who am I waking up to? Am I waking up to the man I fell in love with? Or am I waking up to this really mean, angry person that I don't know? And so to define a few words, gaslighting. Gaslighting is a word that is thrown around a lot right now, but what does it really mean? So gaslighting is when you manipulate another person into doubting their perceptions, experiences, or understanding of events. It's a form of emotional abuse. In fact, it is a highly calculated form of manipulation and it destabilizes you over time. It's coercive control, but it must be by someone you are in a trusting relationship with. So an intimate partner, like I could not gaslight you because we are not, we are not intimate partners and we're not in a trusting relationship. Now, if I was speaking to you as an attorney and you were my client, I could gaslight you because you are trusting me. We have a trusting relationship.
Hmm. Good.
Does that make sense? So gaslighting, it has to be in a trusting relationship because they are taking that trust and they are using it and abusing it.
Right. Because it is thrown around a lot. So it's good for people to really have that clarity around it so they truly know what it is. Yes.
And so gaslighting helps the abuser avoid any blame or responsibility for their actions and their behavior. So if they can twist your words, if they can play on your insecurities and attack your self-esteem and make you Doubt what just happened, then they don't have to apologize. They don't have to take any responsibility, and they slowly over time start to tell you you are the crazy one, and you start to feel like the crazy one. That is why over a long period of time, gaslighting is extremely harmful. You get a lot of self-doubt. You begin to think, am I the crazy one? Am I the narcissist? Do I— am I bipolar?
Yes.
Because it's just their behaviors and their actions are just chaotic and you can't make sense of them and they're constantly twisting your words. And so some common gaslighting phrases are, you're always making stuff up. You're so sensitive. You take everything so personally, or I'm just speaking my truth. It's not my fault if you can't handle the truth. I'm just speaking my truth. And so, you know, it just keeps the victim dependent on them for reality. Because again, like narcissistic abuse, it's domestic violence. It is power and control. Right. So if they can gaslight you, they can control you. If they can condition you to live from a place of constantly reacting to their behavior, they have controlled your emotions. And so I always bring up the reaction versus response as well, because some of us were like, well, I mean, what's really the difference? You're reacting or responding. So here's the difference. This is just a little side story. So I— this came to me just a couple of weeks ago. I had 2 little poodles who died. They both died at the same time and they were buried in my mom's backyard.
Was that poodle?
2 poodles. 2 little dogs.
The audio wasn't great at that point. So poodles, 2. Okay.
Oh, okay. Yeah. So, you know, there we— me and my kids, we made this little grave and we put it in. In the backyard of my in-laws' house. And I was thinking the other day, I'm like, what if they died or sold the house? Would I ever be able to go back to the grave and, and, you know, just see my, my dogs? And so I was thinking, what if, say you're at your house and someone comes to the door, they're knocking on the door. Oh my gosh. I grew up in this house. My childhood puppy is buried in your backyard. Can I go see him? Do you, do you care if I go back in your backyard? And you know, you being the empathetic person you are, you're like, oh my God, yeah, I am so sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah, come, come anytime. Come see your dogs. Come in. And so then you give me this permission to go to your yard. But you've just reacted, right? You've reacted out of kindness, out of empathy, out of like, oh my gosh, I would want that too. And so now I go to your house and I'm bringing candles. I'm sitting out there now. I'm bringing my friends and we're having a party and I'm just going every day to your house to see my dogs that are buried in your backyard. But you never set up any boundaries. You never— you just said I could come. So here I am coming. And now you are over there like kind of fussing, fuming or whatever because you just— you reacted and your first reaction was, yeah, come over. Well, what if that same person were to come to your house and instead of reacting, now you respond and you say, okay, well, do you want to come once a year? How often are you thinking of coming? What are you planning on doing? Is it like for 10 minutes, for 5 minutes? But when you respond, you can set up boundaries. When you respond, you can be thoughtful about what's going to happen.
That's so good.
And so do you see the difference between a reaction and a response? So when you are with a narcissist, you are conditioned to react. And when you react, we are all over the place. Now we react to everything they do. And then when our reactions— we can even attach trauma to that. And that's You know, a trauma reaction.
Yeah.
And so you see the difference? We stop responding. We live from a place of reaction. We're being gaslit. We're being manipulated. We're slowly being coerced. And our world is slowly changing, and we don't really realize it because it is so subtle.
Mm. It's that, that going at you, that little bit every single day, just chipping away at your self-esteem, at your, your knowing of who you are as a person. That it's not like— there's that saying, when an elephant steps on your, on your foot, you go, wow, that hurt, and it was a one-time thing. But when the most annoying—
Yes.
And the most aggravating thing is when the mosquito keeps buzzing around your ear. And it's there all the time and it just keeps buzzing and buzzing. And that is when it drives you nuts, you know. So it's not the one-time reaction, it's the constant chipping away that is so destructive. Wow.
They say death by a thousand cuts. And, and when you're in the middle of it, you, you know, you, you get a cut and you're like, oh, that's painful. It isn't until you walk away you can actually see that you've been slowly bleeding out this time for the thousands of cuts all over your body. But it's not until you walk away because you've been conditioned and, and become blind to all of it. And this, this isn't even all of it. So on top of all of this, remember, they can't be mean all the time because no one would stay if they were mean all the time. So they have to be good also. And so this is what we call intermittent reinforcement. So it's bad, but then it's good. So they devalue and then they love bomb. Then they devalue and they love bomb. And so it becomes very confusing because you're trying in your mind, you're trying to make sense of all of this, right? It's like, okay, I'm waking up today. My husband was wonderful all week. He was great. And now all of a sudden he's, uh, giving me the cold shoulder. He is off pouting somewhere. He's doing something or he's gone. And you're like, I don't even know what I did. I don't even know what happened. And so you're constantly in this like hypervigilant, anxiety-driven state because you have no idea what's going on because they are controlling the narrative. So they know when they go off and out, they know you are going to feel bad about yourself for that weekend because you're going to be wondering, what did I do wrong? Why are they doing that? How can I fix this? What, what needs to happen? And so we start internalizing all of their behavior We take it personally. We internalize it. We try to make sense of it because that's what what we do. That's what empathetic people do. That's what normal, typical people do. We're trying to make sense of all of this, but they are just causing all this chaos and drama, and we have no idea. And so then we start. Okay, well, who do I need to become to get that person back that I fell in love with? Do I need to lose weight? Do I need to make dinner better? Like, what do I need to do? Who do I need to become now to get that person back? And so you see in the beginning, in the idealization stage, they became who we wanted them to be. And now we are trying on everything to become whomever, which one is going to be the one that was going to get the person back that we fell in love with. Who do I need to become? What personality? How do I need to change myself? But, but it doesn't matter what we do, because that first person was never there. That was an illusion. And so when you have all of this, I call it conscious chaos and confusion, this fog.
Absolutely.
This, they're good, they're bad, that creates a trauma bond. And a trauma bond is— it's very similar to Stockholm syndrome. So many people, you know, we, we know about Stockholm syndrome because it's when on the news when you see those big sensational kidnapping cases and it's like, okay, well, the, the victim has fallen in love and in fact she's pregnant and, you know, whatever. Um, that's Stockholm syndrome. So it's very similar to a trauma bond. So now you have, you have this trauma bond And it's very similar to an addiction, like a drug addiction, because, and I used to say that to my husband, God, I feel like I'm so addicted to you and I don't know why. Well, it's the intentional intermittent reinforcement. We're addicted to the good times. We stick around because we know it's going to be good again. And we stick around because we're waiting, like, I know if I can just play this out a little longer, I will find the right combination of person that I need to be, and I will get that person that in the beginning that I fell in love with. It's similar to, to someone who's been using a drug. You know, they get that first high, they get all this dopamine, all these endorphins, all this, you know, oxytocin, you know, whatever, all the chemicals, the feel-good attachment chemicals. But every time they use, they never get that first high.
Hmm.
But they keep using, believing in their mind that they will eventually get the first— that first high again, maybe if they get the right combination again. But that, that will never happen. Similarly, within a trauma-bonded relationship, we're trying to do everything to get the person back that we fell in love with, but that person will never return because that person was an illusion. Was never real, and so, and you have that trauma bond, and so people remain stuck in these relationships. They're very hard to get out of once you get stuck in that that cycle, and so it and it was the same with me. Like I knew his behavior was wrong. I knew I didn't want to be in this marriage. But I loved him, or you know the idea of in my head that I created of who he was. I loved that version of him, and then I just tried to be everything I could be to get that person back. But he never came back because he wasn't there. And so, you know what it's called cognitive dissonance is this fog. And that's another word you might hear people say. It's when you hold 2 conflicting beliefs at the same time. And so the conflicting beliefs are, this is a wonderful, wonderful man that I'm in love with. I have children with him. I want a future with him. And then you have the other conflicting belief over here. He is mean. He is evil. He's manipulating. He's controlling. He's an alcoholic. He's all these things. And so it's like, what do you do when you have these 2 competing conflicts in your mind? Well, the dominant, the dominant thought is going to win. So whatever that dominant thought is in that moment. And this is again why people stay, because in a moment he can be that wonderful, loving husband that you fell in love with. And then in another moment, The dominant thought is he is this mean, evil person.
And was that confusing for you? So that was your experience, obviously, that you were in that and you had that confusion. You were still wanting to go back to that charming, you know, charismatic person that you first met. Wow.
Yes, it is. It is so confusing. And unless you've really been in these situations, It's it's challenging to to explain it to other people, but I can tell you that if any of the listeners are in this and you resonate with this story of wow oh my gosh yes my husband even in my head I'm like God I love him I hate him he's wonderful he's horrible and it's you are probably in one of these types of relationships and I will tell you it will not get better in fact. They get worse.
Mm-hmm.
Because again, a narcissist is there to use you to get what they need from you. So whatever that is, if you are going to make them look better, if you're going to make them feel better about yourself, and you do because you're pouring all this love and attention and all this stuff, and it is exhausting and draining and a burden. These relationships are burdensome. And so there's only 2 ways out. You are going to get discarded, and that's exactly what it sounds like. What do we discard? We discard trash, we discard garbage, we discard things that we have used up and no longer has a value to us. So when a narcissist has used you up and you no longer have value to them, they discard you. And that pretty much means they throw you away. They walk away. They walk away and move on to the next relationship. That very moment, that day. There could be a woman picking them up right now. And I know I'm saying the narcissist is the man just because that's my experience, but that women are narcissists as well. It goes both ways. Just flip the script. You start to understand because there's freedom in understanding. And when you start to understand that no, you are not crazy, no, you are not making things up, No, it is time to stop with all the lies and the deceptions and the stories that you've been hearing and all the gaslighting. When you start to realize what had actually happened to you, when you understand the cycle of abuse, when you understand the trauma bond, when you understand the cognitive dissonance and the gaslighting, then it starts to make sense and you can start having compassion For yourself. You can forgive yourself. You can, you can let the negativity go and you can find value and worth and love within yourself and you can leave. And it takes a lot of courage. It's very, very hard to leave these relationships. Very hard. Because even though we know how bad they are, there's still that glimmer of hope that No, they will change. But they won't. And that's what I always tell people. I'm like, you know, you can't love them enough to change them. The only thing you are doing, you are slowly destroying yourself and hurting yourself. The only thing you can do, and honestly the most loving thing you can do for this person that, that we love, is to let them go. And so, and to find the strength and the courage and, and leave before you're discarded.
Wow.
So it's, um, you know, it, it is hard because we, we love these people, or we think we love them. We love this idea, this version that we've created in our mind of who they are. And so we have to let that go also, and just work on ourselves and focus on ourselves. Because again, a lot of the people who are in these relationships, we're caring, we're giving, we're loving. And we have just given everything to a person who doesn't respect you, doesn't love you. Doesn't care about you. They create the illusion of all that, but you've been trauma bonded. You, um, have been brainwashed. And this is what I also tell people as well. When you leave these relationships, it's not like, uh, leaving a healthy relationship. You have been brainwashed. You have been conditioned. And so you have to look at it as if this person has left an occult.
Wow.
They're drug addicts. You have to look at it like, like they're addicts. Like, how do we, how do we help an addict recover? That is how you help a trauma-bonded person recover. It's similar to that because we are addicted to— I don't want to say to the, the chaos, where it's not the chaos. It is. I, I truly believe the addiction is, is the person. Like we're addicted to that person because we truly believe they will change. Just give me a couple more months. Give me a couple more years. I'll crack the code and then they will change. I'll get that right code that I you know when that the lights come on in your car. And it's like, so you have to go to a mechanic and they have to put that code in. So sometimes I, I think like that, like if we just have the right code, the right sequence of numbers, we can— we'll get that person back. But yeah, the person's an illusion. It's not true. Nothing's real.
So can I ask—
Yeah, you have to let them go.
Definitely. And in the beginning when I said there was that myth that a certain type attracts these type of relationships, well, after listening to what you've said so far, I want to ask, for the narcissist, is there— let's say we're talking about men in this instance because I'm interviewing you as a woman— do they Attract, or are they attracted to a tip— a type of woman that seems more empathetic, like more of an empath? Because an empath will always try to keep the peace and, and feel someone else's emotions and take on other people's, uh, responsibility that doesn't belong to them until they've set up those boundaries. Do you think a narcissist can target an empath, can see them and go, yeah, Exactly my type.
You know, I, I don't know all of that. I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
Just out of your experience.
But I, you know, I've read.
Yeah.
So, you know, from my experience, I would say definitely a more empathetic person, a person who is more caring, more understanding, more forgiving.
Yes.
Because I can forgive all these little things because I see your potential. And a lot of the time, and I've said this many times, like, I fell in love with his potential. I can see potential and greatness and goodness in people. And, you know, when you're in a healthy relationship, you both partners see that potential and both partners grow together and help you fulfill your potential.
Hmm.
But within these narcissistic relationships, it's— they don't want to fulfill their potential because they're— this is what all they want. And so I think when you are more caring, more motherly, because again, you know, they want to be fawned all over, they want to be taken care of, they want all your attention. Um, and so I, I, I would say yes, but I'd like, you know, from a, from a personal point of view. Yeah, yeah, just, just my own personal experience. But I also believe too, like, you know, my second husband, he, um, I didn't know this until later on, but he, you know, would— he was a victim. Always the victim in everything, and so you know he made out his ex-wife to be this like horrible person who was using him, and he had this big sob story, and he had all these legal troubles. And so you know he would use me to intimidate her. And so here I am. I I don't know all the details, but I'm believing him and trusting him when he's saying certain things, and. He has these legal issues, and this is stuff that I can, I can work with to write these letters. But I didn't know that I was— he was using me to traumatize her.
Hmm.
And so I think he, he chose me for, for some of that. I was a strong person. I was a lawyer, you know, all these things. And so, okay, well, now he can hide behind me, and I'm going to do his dirty work. for him. And, and he, he was a, um, he's more of a malignant narcissist. So narcissists, there's a spectrum of them, all different types and sizes and whatevers, but the malignant kind of borderlines on the sociopath side. Like, he was a self-proclaimed asshole. He hated everyone and everyone hated him. And so he would go and burn all these bridges, and then he'd have me go and rebuild all these bridges. And so it was like constantly like, okay, well, now you've been kicked out of the doctor's office. Like, our kids' doctors won't talk to you because of your bad behavior. And I was actually talking to another attorney who was married to a malignant narcissist, and he told me the same thing. We're sitting here sharing stories. I'm like, did you have to do like legal damage control all the time? And he's like, yeah, all The time, and so it's almost like they know what they are. They know what they're doing. I mean, firstly, let's just throw get that out there because so many people are oh they don't know they're not self aware. They know exactly what they're doing. I mean, look at the gas the definition of gaslighting. It's intentional. They know what they are doing. They are very smart, clever people. They're not. Crazy. They know exactly what they are doing. And so, you know, I'm talking to this other attorney who was married to a malignant narcissist also, and we both came to the conclusion that especially the malignant type, they are intentionally destroying all these relationships because now, look, I don't have to deal with the teachers anymore. So it wasn't my fault they kicked me out. And so who has to go deal with them? I do. Well, now he can't go to doctor's offices anymore. He can't take the kids to the doctors anymore. So who has to do it?
I do.
Well, now he got kicked out of this place and these people won't talk to him either. So now who has to go deal with them?
I do.
Because we still have to have a life and we have kids and we have things, but now he can't deal with anyone. So he can just be at home doing whatever he wants. That is what they want. And now I'm doing everything. And he would just, you know, again, the gaslighting. Well, they— I didn't do anything. I didn't yell. I wasn't being hostile.
Hmm.
This— I just said this and they took it that way, and now they kicked me out. It's not my fault. You know, I mean, he's gaslighting them. Just like I like to say crazy, like he's just effing crazy, but he's not. It's calculated. It's like a calculated out of all.
I was gonna say it's like this calculated emotional hurricane that comes through your life, messes it up, and then spins back out. It's incredible.
No, it is exactly what it is. Like, you know, they, they take everything and they just destroy everything because they, they create this world of trauma, drama, and chaos. Like, they just— and, and then they start conditioning us. And so I, you know, do you know that— I don't know if you ever took a psychology class, but like every first-year college psychology class, we all learn about Pavlov's dogs, right? Like, he's conditioned these dogs. And so every time a bell rings now, the dogs just, they just react. It's just an automatic reaction. And so it's very similar in, in these relationships. It's like he would just open his mouth and I would just react to whatever. And you just live in this place of reaction. And so he's creating all this chaos. And we're just over here blown up like a firecracker, reacting and reacting and reacting. And we just live in this chaotic hurricane. It is chaotic. And then you're like, how do I get out of this hurricane? But I love him. So now what? Do I just stay in this hurricane of chaos, waiting for him to change and changing myself and Becoming everything that I never wanted to become, or you you hide your true authentic self, which is kind of what I did, which is why I'm not that in the EFT, which has has saved me. But like I just stopped showing him my true personality. So you know, like he would he would say something that he would get a reaction. I would react, but I wouldn't give him my, my honest opinion on things anymore, if that makes sense.
So you start hiding yourself, who you are.
You hide yourself on the inside, but on the outside, you're trying to become all these, these things, trying to figure out how to get that, that idealization phase back, you know, the good times.
Yeah. So Stephanie, what, what are some of the things that you could actually share with our listeners and, and viewers who are listening to your story and know that they are in the relationship, a relationship like you experienced, or a few light bulbs are starting to flash on and they're starting to tick a few boxes saying, oh, is that why I'm experiencing this? Is that why I'm feeling this? Is that why I'm reacting? You know, they're just starting to go, oh, wait a minute, I see myself in your story. What are some of the things that you did to start helping yourself move out of this? Like, whilst you were in it, did you start setting up boundaries? How did you start protecting yourself?
Yeah, so, you know, in, in 2020, I actually— his behavior just kept getting worse And worse and worse. And it was so confusing because here we have the world that is crazy and shut down and confusing. And then in my own personal home life was starting to get crazy and confusing. And I really didn't know what was, what was truly his behavior or what was 2020, because he could blame it all on 2020. Or at least in my head, I could, I would justify it. Mm-hmm. Like that. Okay, well, he's acting all weird and and strange because the world is all weird and strange, and everyone is weird and strange right now. And so, you know, I started to justify his behavior, and a lot of us do that. We justify their behavior, and I think that's one of a really good sign if you are in a toxic relationship. If you are justifying someone's behavior, you are probably in. a, a not so good relationship because we shouldn't have to justify other people's behavior. In fact, we shouldn't even take responsibility for their behavior at all.
Hmm.
And so I actually, um, separated from him, filed for divorce and, and stuff. And I should have stuck with my, my intuition there. But, you know, they say you leave And then you, the love bombing. They, his mother kept calling me, Stephanie, he's changed. He loves you so much. He'll do whatever it takes to get this marriage back. It's 2020. So, you know, sort of feeding into that, you know, that validation that I'm seeking as I'm blaming everything on 2020. And so I did. I said, well, you have to go to the abuser recovery class or you have to do AA or whatever. I set up these boundaries and then I brought him back and he was great for, again, I got That person I fell in love with back for three months, and then the mask came off and it was just even worse. And so, you know, it was during that time that we were separated that I learned about EFT. So EFT for the listeners, it's emotional freedom techniques. It is a tapping healing modality that really helps you to process your emotions. It helps you. To, um, yeah, understand the emotions, talk through the emotions. So for instance, if it's anxiety, you know, well, that's all this anxiety I'm feeling in my body. I'm feeling it in my, in my chest. I, I feel it feels heavy and, and stuff. And so you really sit with it and then you release it. And then I do another round of tapping into the person you want to become. So I'm strong and capable I'm you know whatever. But so when I found EFT, I just spent hours and hours and hours. And honestly, I really feel like it was a God-given tool at that time, and it has really helped me because every time there would be moments of like this chaos and all this gaslighting stuff, I would go somewhere and try to you know whether it's just in the bathroom because that's the only place I could go to be alone or. in my car, um, and I would just tap and work through and process, you know, these things. But I, you know, I, I still didn't know what really— what narcissistic abuse was. And here I have 2 ex-husbands, they're both calling each other narcissists. Oh, you're still married to that narcissist? Or you're not? You know, so again, they are aware. These are— they are not dumb people. They are very, very intelligent to some degree. Um, they know what they're doing. They're playing the game. And so, um, I did that. And then, you know, going back to when I'm on the floor at my sister's house, like, you know, so many people would ask me, well, Stephanie, what are the lessons? Well, when you're stuck in this victim story of everything happening to you, you, you can't see the lessons because you did nothing wrong. So if you did nothing wrong, there's no lesson to be learned. And so when I let go of that victim story and said, okay, let's just, let's just pretend. And sometimes we have to pretend. Let's just pretend that my 2 ex-husbands aren't monsters trying to destroy my life. Okay, I don't really believe that, but we're pretending. So I got a journal and I sat down and said, okay, what if they were teachers here to teach me powerful life lessons? What would those be? And what would that look like? So I went through my first marriage. Okay, um, husband number one, if you are here to teach me a life lesson, what would that be? Okay, boundaries. So for 14 years, I was the boundaries police for him, which means I was patrolling his boundaries. He didn't have boundaries. He was cheating. So I would confront the other women, you know, he's married. Why are you chatting to him? Why are you sending him photos? And so I can say Thank you, husband number 1, for telling— for showing me that I am not responsible for other people's boundaries. I am not the boundaries police. That is not my job to be the boundaries police, and it is not my job to be someone else's boundaries. I am only responsible for my boundaries, and I must have boundaries.
Hmm.
Okay, so going into marriage number 2, I thought I went in with boundaries. Instead, I carried a toddler fence. Do you know what I'm talking about? Those little fences that you can—
Put a toddler in.
Create all— you put a toddler in or a dog and, you know, you create this little boundary. But if they're heavy enough or strong enough, they can push it over, right? And so I go into my second marriage and I bring in my toddler fence, my boundaries. I set it up. He goes up to my boundary and he knocks it over. And I say, oh, okay, the boundary must be over here then. So I pick up my toddler fence and I move it over here. Okay, here's my boundary. And then he would go and he would push up against my boundary, knock over that toddler fence, and I would pick it up again and put it somewhere else. That's not a boundary. You might as well not have any boundaries. A toddler fence is not boundaries. Boundary is something that is securely planted. And when someone pushes up against it, it does not knock over. It doesn't fall over.
Hmm.
So I can say, thank you, husband number 2. I really need to have boundaries and a toddler fence is not a boundary. So I went through both of my marriages and filled up an entire journal And I, and again, I had to pretend that they were teachers here sent to teach me life lessons. And what would they be? Husband number 1, uh, I'm worthy of so much more. Why do we put up with so much?
Wow.
Yeah. I'm worthy of so much more. And I like to say worthy because worthy As opposed to deserving. A lot of people say, well, you deserve so much more. No, worthiness is innate. I am worthy because of who I am.
Beautiful.
Deserving means that we did something to get something in return. So I did this to you, so therefore I deserve that. No, worthiness is innate. It is because I am. I am worthy of so much more. And so you have to find the lessons. And when you really, really take the time to do the hard work, then you can see the patterns. And when you can see the patterns, you can say, okay, I Either want that or I don't want that. And then you break those patterns, so you stop calling in or being attracted to these types of people. So I can say with confidence, I am not afraid to date another person. Will I date another narcissist? No, I, I can see very clearly now. I am completely out of the fog because, you know, between my 2 marriages, I didn't do the hard work. And so many people, you know, we always hear that, well, time will heal. Well, time heals if— when you leave a healthy relationship. Time does not heal when you leave a toxic relationship. It doesn't heal. You have to do the work, and I did not do the work. I just did the time. Okay, it's been 2 years, I could date now.
Um, that's— wow, that's, that's a powerful message. That is such a powerful message because I really dislike that saying now that you—
when—
it's funny you brought that one up because I so dislike that saying, time heals all. No, it doesn't. We heal us. Time doesn't. Time just makes it continue further into the future. What you need is what you've been doing. Wow. I love that. Yeah.
And so, I mean, I correct people all the time with that as well because it's like, no, you will be in the same place. And unfortunately, and Sadly, I've talked to so many men and women who are still waiting for time to heal. It's been 5 years. Why, why am I like still thinking about this person? Why can't I get over this person? Why can't I— Like, because time does not heal. You have to go in and do the mindset work. You need to rewire the electrical wiring station because you have been brainwashed and now you're just sitting here in, in reliving that moment, moment by moment and, and day by day, you're still stuck in the past. You are still stuck to all those trauma wounds. You are still attached to this person.
Hmm.
You have to do the work. And doing the work is, is the mindset stuff. It is getting that toxic person out of your mind. and renewing your mind. You know, I don't always quote Bible quotes and stuff, and I get— I don't even know what scripture it is, but it's like, be renewed in the mind.
Mm.
You must renew your mind because you have spent so many years in negativity and toxicity and brainwashing and conditioning. You need to get all that out. And so I always tell people too, I'm like, you've got to do like a negative mind dump. You've got Get that person out of your mind. Yes, get it all out and then fill your mind up with peace, harmony, love, joy, happiness, all the fruits of the Spirit, all the good stuff that you want. Fill your mind up with that and think on those things, because when you're with these toxic people, it's just negativity, negativity, negativity all day long.
Absolutely. It's soul-destroying. It's absolutely soul-destroying. You come out of, I guess, a relationship like that not knowing who you are anymore or what you want in life. And I guess you were able to do it through Emotional Freedom Technique, but for some people who have been so traumatized that they can't, I mean, obviously going to a qualified therapist or mindset coach would be beneficial for them to at least start to get back that self-worth. And what you're saying, it's the self-worth part that is totally destroyed that you have to then get back to, to believe you, you're worth the best in life. And I think—
Absolutely.
From— if I can say 2 things that I'm really going— if we can recap back to your story throughout, there's 2 things that have really stood out for me here is having boundaries. It is so easy throughout life, situations happen to us where we've let our boundaries down, we've let them down, or we haven't really had strong ones to begin with. And narcissistic abuse can happen because of a lack of boundaries. And we're not responsible for them, and we're not responsible for their actions, we're not responsible for their emotions, but we are responsible for ours. And I love that.
Yes.
You have been so responsible and awake. Like, you, you had the strength to realize, even though you were going through all that abuse and manipulation, You still had this inner core strength to go, you know what? This isn't me. I'm not the crazy one that he's you know he's making out to be, and I'm going to save myself for myself and for my kids. I mean, that takes incredible courage. Your story is amazing, Stephanie, and I'm so glad that you've come onto my platform and shared it with so many people who need. to hear this because a lot of people are in abusive relationships and narcissistic relationships. So my question to you to wrap it all up is, what message do you have for our listeners today?
You know, the, the biggest one, and if it was something that I had heard I don't think I would have gone back to my second husband was that we cannot change them. We cannot love them enough. We cannot change ourselves enough to get them to change. The most loving thing we can do for ourselves and for them is to let them go. That's really hard. to hear, especially when you invested years and years and years. It's like that, that rate of return, right? That investment on return.
Yes.
I want that return back.
The ROI.
Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. The ROI. We want that back. It's like, well, I've invested 10 years of my life into this person. I have two children with this person. But sometimes we have to count our losses and say, what is the most loving thing for everyone in this relationship? And the most loving thing for everyone is to let them go and to work on yourself. It's best for the children. It's best for you, and it.
Wow, powerful. Such a solid message. I think it is so true. You have to learn to let go. There's so many things in our lives that we need to learn to let go of. And I think sometimes letting go is one of the hardest things for people to do. You know, that takes a lot of courage to go, you know what, it hasn't worked. And I think it's also getting rid of the ego. The ego that says, "No, I have to make this work. I have to. What would people think? I have to do it for myself." No, you actually don't. You don't have to worry about what other people think. You know what they think?
Yes. Oh my gosh!
Is there? Yes.
And to just to yes, please. Yeah. And to just touch on that that you you brought that up. I when you have a high achieving person. You don't want to feel like a failure. It's like I already felt like a failure in my first marriage, and here I am feeling like a failure for the second time around. I'm feeling like a failure, like I can't— I can be successful in all the other areas of my life, but I can't freaking find success in marriage. And so you feel like a failure. You feel like you're disappointing your family and your friends. You're letting everyone down, at least, you know, in your head. Because for me, it's like my parents are still married. My first husband's parents, they were still married. I mean, they're going on like 55 years of being married. And so it's like, well, you work at it, you work at it, you try to make the relationship work. And but in the end, you're either going to disappoint everyone or you're going to disappoint yourself. And I will tell you, because I have disappointed myself enough, don't disappoint yourself.
That—
because it's all in our— it's all in our head, all in our mind.
Absolutely.
And I'm tired of disappointing myself. And, and so instead of disappointing everyone else, And why do we care? They're not the ones living our life. They're not the ones that are in our marriage and that know all the crap that we're going through and the things we're putting up with. They don't know.
Mm-hmm.
Because again, we hide it because it's embarrassing. It's why people don't talk about this stuff enough for the judgment. But so here I am, I would rather disappoint myself and, and remain in this disappointing marriage than let down everyone else so that everyone else could see that I'm a failure.
Um, that is, that is, that is so powerful because how many times do we sacrifice ourselves to make sure that in society we look like we've got it all together and that this isn't happening to me, that this only happens to other people? It has to stop. And I do feel that it is a subject that needs to be talked about more, and that if a woman is going through it— I agree. She needs to be able to talk to her girlfriends or to her parents or to a counselor openly and get the help they need and get the support, the emotional support, because this happens way too often, especially for women. I'm not discounting that it doesn't happen for men, it does. But I think if you look at the scales, women win there, you know. So, Stephanie, it has been amazing having you on the show to share this story. And I really hope our listeners, anybody who is in this situation or feel that they most probably are and just woken up to it, That you have this episode on replay and just keep listening to it and realize that Stephanie has come out from being abused emotionally to now thriving because she took responsibility for herself, took action. So admirable. Thank you, Stephanie, for sharing your story with us today. Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me on your show. It really is an honor, and it is my hope that people don't make all the mistakes that I made.
Well, I think you've taught people a lot today, and I really hope that they do take your messages because it's been powerful. Thank you so much. It's been an honor having you and sharing your story.
Thank you.
Thank you. I would love to know What was the biggest insight or aha moment you got from this interview so you can now speak up, take action, and make informed decisions for your health? And if you like this episode, get instant access to your free ebook, Alternative Wisdom: Taking Back Control of Your Health, at life-onus.com.
