Living with Narcissistic Abuse: A Story of Survival, Recovery and Finding Inner Strength | Part 2

I got out of jail and hired a very good— he was a federal prosecutor and did domestic violence cases, and he was, he was incredible. Um, hired him right away. And then that evening, I got a phone call from my sister and she said, uh, it was about 10 o'clock at night and she said, Stephanie, Baron has drowned. Oh my God. And he's at the hospital. I don't know if he's dead or alive.

Hello and welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, a podcast to raise your awareness, decisions, and voice for alternative practices so you can take back control of your health. I'm Rita De Michele, your host, a mindset and empowerment coach, and the founder of the Onus Join me each week so you can create the health of your dreams. We're back with part 2 of this special conversation with Stephanie Ann. In the first episode, we discussed her experience with narcissistic relationships and domestic violence, including how to recognize those warning signs. Today, we'll be talking about how she safely left those situations and And is now thriving. If you connect with this topic, I strongly recommend listening to last week's episode. Welcome back, Stephanie.

Oh, thank you so much for having me back on your show.

Oh, I'm really excited. Well, excited— it is such an important topic. It's one that I think so many women, and there are men, but mainly women really need to hear if they're in this situation. That's why we've done a part 2, because the first one was all about how to recognize it, you know, the control, all of the— all that sort of thing. But the leaving is the hard part, you know. They create so much, you know, control and fear. And especially like yourself, you know, I believe it was, it was some years, and you had a young family. That's the scariest part to think about, before you were actually able to leave. Can you start us off there? What did you do?

Yeah, and so in your introduction you said, uh, and you left safely. Uh, no, no, it doesn't always happen that way, unfortunately. And, and here I am with with my background and my knowledge, and I still did everything wrong. Because sometimes when you're in like the, the heat of the moment, you just— you're reacting. And when you've been in these relationships for a really long time, you start to live from a place of reaction. You're not thoughtfully responding. You're not really even thinking. You're kind of— many times just going off of adrenaline and reactions and seeing where that takes you.

Mm-hmm.

And so for my story, I, you know, I tell people, I'm like, you know, it's a, it's a cautionary tale of, of what not to do. And again, here I am, this is what I do, and I did everything wrong. Um, so, you know, statistically they say that when someone is trying to leave an abusive relationship, And that's when it can escalate into violence because that's when the control— when, when your partner can't control you any longer, they start to, to flip out and freak out. And then you're reacting to that and it can, it can be pretty traumatic. And so when I left, I— it started. So the discard, we, in the first episode, we talked about the stages, the cycle of narcissistic abuse, where the first stage is the idolization phase, then the devaluation, and then the discard. And so the discard is exactly what it sounds like. What do we, what do we discard? We discard things that we've used up that no longer serve a purpose in our life. And if you don't leave, you will eventually get discarded. And so it is much better to leave on your own terms and, and not to have the discard. I think for myself, with my second marriage, it was more of a simultaneous, he's discarding me and I'm leaving at the same time, um, kind of what happened. And so leading up to that, he went on this narcissistic rage. And he's always had little tiny rages. Um, then maybe that would last for a weekend, like 3 days tops, and then he would calm down, cool off. I would apologize for, you know, his rage because that's what we do.

That's what we do.

Sorry. And but this time it wasn't stopping and it was becoming increasingly, uh, more violent and scary. And I, I'd never had experienced this with myself personally, the rage. And I've heard people say, oh, when they go into this narcissistic rage, it looks like the Incredible Hulk. And I witnessed that, like he turned into this monster that I've never seen before and punching walls, slamming doors. Uh, lots of passive aggressive, just talk. Um, and he started tormenting and provoking, you know, so he would, like, I would try to go to sleep at night and he would shine his flash, not his flashlight, the light on his cell phone in my face and calling me all these names and trying to get a reaction. And in my mind, I'm sitting there just praying like, oh my God, just go away, go to sleep. Like, just calm down, but you can't, you can't react. And at this point when it's really scary, you don't want to react, but you also, you also can't call the cops either. You can't tell some of your friends because it's, you know, we start to internalize all of this, this chaos. And, and we're there and it's like, okay, I need to go. And this was like the first time that I really said, I need to go. I had— we had 6 little boys. Um, their mother had died, if, if you heard that part of the story. And so, you know, I'm, I'm their only mother figure. And at the time, I think they were 14, 13, 10, you know, just little boys. And then we had our baby. Um, and so the provoking and the tormenting and name-calling and all this passive-aggressive stuff, and it wasn't stopping. So I finally, um, I, I went over to a friend's house and just said, hey, look, we're not the perfect looking couple. Here's what's going on in our life. Here's the things that are happening right now. And I'm really actually really terrified. And if I I need a place to go. Can I come to your house? I had no idea.

Were you believed straight away? Did they believe you? Because that's one of the issues.

My friend? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, we were kind of new in the neighborhood. We just moved to Florida and no one really knew us. Um, and I really didn't have a whole lot of friends because we, we just moved there.

Yeah.

Um, And so, yeah, of course they believed me. And, um, then I, my, my big concern was, was for the boys, for his boys, because I can't just leave and take his kids with me. You know? And so I was like, okay, well, and I talked about this, like adopting them and stuff, but, you know, I, I was like, okay, how can we all get out safely? I mean, there's 6 kids here and a dog. And so I'm, I'm trying to, to put together a plan, but at the same time, I'm also like, I'm not in the best state of mind as well because I'm on having this adrenaline rush reaction from his, uh, rage that he's not coming down from. And so I, um, I called his grandma. I was really close with his grandma, loved his grandma, and it was the one person that he really respected.

Mm-hmm.

And listen to. And I told her what was going on and she's like, okay, let's, let's try to come up with a plan to get you and the boys out of there. Um, but then she's like, can you, can you get him to calm down? I'm like, this is like nothing I've ever seen. He's not calming down from this. In fact, it's just getting more intense. And so, um, the next day. I think I even called him a narcissist. I'm like, you're a narcissist. And I'm like, okay, let's do some reverse psychology. So, you know, I'm like throwing everything back at him. And I never did that before. And I don't recommend that because it's just like throwing fuel onto the fire. So, uh, you know, that's first one big mistake. Don't ever call them a narcissist. That is just going to create More rage. Um, and don't throw more fuel on the fire by getting in a fight with them and, and interacting like that. Um, and so then I, I took the boys out, out to dinner, and this was the first time my, my fifth— he was 15 at the time. That's right. He was my stepson. I took him out to dinner. And, um, the first thing he said when he got in the car is, why do you let my dad treat you like that? Oh, oh, I'm like, kids are so receptive. I'm like, I'm not letting him. I'm trying to protect you guys. I'm trying to formulate a plan. I'm trying to get out of here and I can't leave you guys. But then he went and he started telling me all these stories about the abuse between his, uh, mom and his dad and how bad it was. And, and how, you know, I mean, it's pretty much messed, messed their lives up as well, just being in the middle of all that, that trauma and all that chaos. And, uh, yeah. And so we— I told him, I'm like, look, I'm, I'm leaving. I'm coming up with a plan, but I'm out of here. I want to take you guys with me. Um, And so that, that didn't work because one of the kids told their dad my plan. And that's the thing. I mean, you can't get— you can't get angry with kids because kids are going to tell— kids want that loving connection and they will do whatever they can. And they are always loyal to the biological parent, even though they know.

Yes.

Because they have to protect themselves and keep the peace and look after themselves. And so it somehow got out that, you know, I was going to leave and do all this stuff. It pissed him off even more, more rage. And, um, finally it just— he just, he wouldn't stop. And so I rolled over, got on top of him. And punched him and said, leave me the fuck alone. I'm done. We're leaving. This is where I'm taking my baby. We're going. And that is when he proceeded to just kick the shit out of me.

Wow.

And I couldn't leave the room. He destroyed my phone. He, I really thought he was going to kill me. And, and he is almost 6'4. He was a very big guy. And, you know, I was probably, I'm like 5'9 and probably 130, 125 pounds at that time. And so he, he wouldn't get off of me. And I literally thought he was going to kill me. And I started screaming for my, the oldest son to come. And he woke up, he came into the room and that's when everything stopped. And I left and, um, went and got my baby, put him in the car. I went to get the other boys. They were sound asleep. They didn't hear anything or experience, you know, they weren't there for anything. And I was just like, okay, what, what do I do? Do I, do I get the boys and put them in the car? Where am I going to go? I don't know anyone except for, you know, my one friend. But, um, you know, it was just everything was just a fog and happening so fast. And when I went, after I put the baby and my dog in the car and I went to get the other boys, I turned around and he had taken the baby out of the car seat and brought the baby back in the house. And then he wouldn't give me the baby. And that just, you know, that any mother, it's like, oh my gosh, just give me my baby and I will go. I will go. I will be gone. You can keep— you can keep the house. You can do whatever you want. Just give me the baby and I'm going to take my kids and go. And so I'm sitting here like pleading and begging him to give me the baby and he won't. And he calls 911 and says that I abused him. I did all these things. I'm freaking out. And he's like terrified for his life. I mean, all of this stuff is not—

6 months before and he's terrified for his life.

Uh-huh. Yeah, exactly right. And so I just go outside and just sit down and, and the law enforcement shows up and they went inside. And apparently he— when I left, he was not covered in blood. When they saw him, he was covered in blood. And I believe he just, uh, was punching himself or doing something. And it's just because things have come up later where my niece and nephew have talked about him doing things like that before.

Hmm.

And so when they interviewed me, and meanwhile, I mean, they interviewed me outside. It was like 1 in the morning, dark outside. They didn't even look at my body or anything. And, um, then she came back. It was a woman cop. She came back and placed me under arrest. And I was like, what? Why? And she said he had a better story and he's covered in blood and his hands were all scratched up. I'm like, well, he's been punching walls and like destroying stuff for 3 weeks.

That is, that is phenomenal. I mean, you think a female police officer would have maybe a little bit more empathy for you and the fact that, you know, you were trying to get your baby. What, what would you say to someone who finds themselves in that situation where it's so violent like that? Would you— is it better to have just left, or is it better to have What you did stay and, and plead and, well, especially because you've had, you had the baby.

Yeah, you know, it's a narcissist can harm anyone, and my ex can get women to do anything for them. Secondly, he had a very good story, which means this was all planned. And here I am, I am just the emotions. I'm just I'm freaking out. I'm doing all this stuff, even even though when the cops came, I was very calm. You know, it is. I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the U.S., probably about. 20, 30 years ago, many of the states started enacting the mandatory arrest. And so for a mandatory arrest in an assault case where, you know, domestic is assault 4, it's a mandatory arrest, which means they have to determine at the scene who the primary aggressor is. But, you know, They don't— most law enforcement have no idea how to look for signs of actual abuse. And I say this because 20-plus years ago, I was on a task force that worked with law enforcement teaching them how to understand reactive abuse, how to understand Who— and figure out who the actual victim is. And actually, our state, the state that I live in right now, Oregon, is a very— this state has had a lot of training. We have spent so much time educating law enforcement on how to actually recognize which one is the victim. Even though it might not look like that at the time. And so then you have all these other states, they don't have the same kind of training, they don't have the same kind of protocols, they don't have all this other stuff. And so they're just going by the story. He has a sad story, he's covered in blood, he's the one who called 911. I didn't do any of those things. But again, I also didn't get a full interview in the light. I didn't know until I was booked in jail that I was covered in bruises and all kinds of stuff. But they didn't know either because they didn't fully interview me or look over me. And, you know, I was reading the police reports later on, and this is why you can't So why police reports are hearsay, um, why they don't come in. Because, right, my 15-year-old corroborated the whole— his whole story, his dad's whole story. He said he was there. He said he saw everything. He said this and that. He wasn't there.

Hmm, he was scared, do you think? And he had to—

Oh yeah, terrified. They are terrified of their father. And so now you have 2 witnesses. One's covered in blood, has a better story, and you have me. So If you are arrested, my advice is don't say anything. Don't plead and beg with the cops. You just, you just go with it and do what you need to do. Get out and hire a damn good attorney who understands domestic violence. And that's what I did.

And do you think that this is— when women hear these stories, and you're a very smart woman, you're an attorney, so you imagine someone who, um, isn't— doesn't have the knowledge that you have. Do you think that it's this system, and because of these type of situations, is why they stay where they are? And continue receiving the abuse?

Yeah, I do. Because, uh, one, they will threaten you. They will say, if you call the cops, uh, I'll leave. I'm gone. They turn the gaslight. I mean, this is what they're good— this is what they're good at. This is their thing. If you call the cops, I'm leaving. Oh, so where are you gonna live? Where are you gonna go? Especially if they're the financial provider, you know, if they're the ones that are paying the bills, if they're the ones doing this.

Mm.

So especially for women who maybe are stay-at-home moms or maybe don't make the kind of money that they do, or you could have— maybe they're an undocumented person and so visa's expired or they're there, you know, just as without documents. Um, so they can use all of that. Oh, well, you're, you're not even supposed to be in the US anyways. You call the cops, you're going to prison for life. And these kids, they're shipping them back to wherever they came from, you know. And so there, they— there's a power. And remember, it's power and control.

Mm.

And so many people Don't leave because, well, well, what's going to happen? They don't understand the laws. They don't understand, um, what's going to happen. They don't know any of this stuff. And so then if you have a person who's so good at lying and manipulating and making stuff up, they will, they will say whatever. Because whatever you say with a little bit of confidence, that sure sounds like the truth, doesn't it?

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, they'll use all those things. So say, say one time you do call the cop, and then the cops come and they don't do anything, and now they hold that over you. Oh well, remember when you called the cops and they didn't do anything? You want me out of the house? You want me gone? This is my house. Where are you gonna go? You go somewhere.

Yes.

You see how they could turn everything around and they can Hold that above you. So when I was in jail, I actually there were several women because they they don't understand the legal system. They don't understand you know what's going to happen next and all this stuff. I mean honestly, I was I didn't mind being in jail. My my friends are like something you always turn. You can always find like the the super bonding the the you know I I'm just like dude I don't I'm not taking care of.

Kids.

I'm not getting fed, babysitting a full-grown man. I have a bed to myself. I'm like, so wait, no one's bothering me? I just, you know, turn the lights off. I played college sports. I can go to the bathroom in front of anyone. I grew up with five sisters. You know, I'm like, I don't jail. Jail is fine. But but there was a lot of women in there that you know they're they're crying and super upset and this and that. And I'm I'm kind of. Hearing little, little bits of the story because their situation was exactly like mine. They, uh, one woman was in there because she, she punched her mom's boyfriend because he was beating her mom up. Guess who went to jail? The 21-year-old daughter.

It's unbelievable.

There was a, there was another woman in there and she said her ex-husband came over to her, her house and he wouldn't get out of the house, so she grabbed a knife and said, Get the fuck out of my house. He called the cops and she was arrested. It's just putting him in apprehension of fear. This system is messed up. The system was supposed to be created to protect victims, but what the system is doing, it is incarcerating the victims. They are not getting the primary aggressors, especially when Like, for myself, 3 weeks of rage. And this is what the cops would say. Well, why didn't you call at the very beginning of the rage?

Well, maybe you don't— not even near access to a phone. You're being pinned down on the floor, being hit. How can you?

Yeah. It's unrealistic.

It is.

And so the whole everything is messed up. And this is why victims don't call the cops. And it's when the actual true aggressor calls and flips, flips the script and tells a different story. So there's— this is why we need to have more conversations around this, um, because it is, it is real and it is happening to a lot of people. But This is also why I say don't do what I did. Yeah, you want to punch them. I get it. And maybe you already are in a physical relationship like that where you guys hit each other. It's got to stop. And you know, and and what they do after that is we call it the smear campaign. So he sent my mugshot to like everyone. And he said underneath it, I've been being abused for years. Finally, Stephanie's being held accountable for her actions of abusing me for years. How—

oh my goodness, how damaging.

Well, it's not damaging when it's all your friends and your friends know who you are. And this is what I tell people as well. They're like, they are Starting this smear campaign and people are believing them. And I say, your people who know you, they know you. Everyone else, who cares? Who cares?

They're not important.

You don't have to stand up for yourself. You don't have to stand up for yourself and you don't have to correct it. Let it go. Let it go. People who know you know you.

That is unbelievable. I mean, the emotional— I mean, I believe you've been— you went to jail twice. Those— you didn't do it by halves, did you, Stephanie? Yeah, you had to go get in twice.

So this is— it was— yeah, I, I don't recommend going back to jail once you've already been there, but, you know, I, I learned from the first time. And so the second time I went, I actually had a sports bra on and some underwear. Um, because you can, you can wear that under the jumpsuit.

Yeah.

So I— this is my baby.

Your baby.

So we lived on the Gulf. We lived on the water. The water was our backyard. And I never left my baby alone with my ex-husband. Because there was another time when I was out doing stuff with the other boys and the baby had gotten out. And supposedly he was in the bathroom and for 30 seconds, but for a baby, because my son didn't even walk at the time, so he would have had to crawl all the way down there. So I never left him alone with his father for those reasons.

Mm-hmm.

And so my sister calls me and she's like, Stephanie, I'm on the phone right now with Jace and he's on the other line. Um, he just told me that Baron drowned. He's at the hospital. And I'm freaking out because one, when I got outta jail, normally on, on the release sheet. You get to, to go back to your house and grab some personal belongings and stuff. So, but that wasn't on my sheet. They like messed it up.

Oh.

And so I, yeah. And so I didn't have a car. I don't even have my other kids, my kids that are not his kids. And so I'm like, I'm freaking out because I don't know if my baby is alive. I don't know if he's dead. I called the hospital. The hospital wouldn't give me any information because he didn't list me as a parent.

Okay.

And so I'm like, okay. And I couldn't get an Uber or anything because he shut off all my credit cards. He shut— he called the bank and said my cards were all lost and all this stuff. And so I, I didn't have any money. Uh, I was at my friend's house, but they weren't there. They were like a couple hours away. And so I, I just grabbed a bike because I was staying at their house and their house is just a couple blocks away from my house. I called my attorney. My attorney didn't answer. I called CPS. I'm like, can I go to the house? I have this no contact. I'm not supposed to be at the house, but my son just drowned. He's at the hospital. I need a vehicle. And the CPS lady was like, oh yeah, yeah, as long as he's not there, you can go to the house. I'm like, okay.

What's CPS?

I should have called.

What does CPS mean?

It's Child Protective Services. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they would be the ones that, especially after domestic, they show up at the house, make sure everyone is—

Same here.

Yeah. And so, um, and CPS actually believed me that I was the actual victim. I, I went and, and told my story and they were like, oh yeah, this is effed up big time. And so, um, oh, I'll get to that, back to CPS in a second. But so I, I go to my house, get in the house, and he's not there because he's talking to my sister and he's driving home from the hospital. So I'm trying to just get my car. I grab my kids and my dog, and then I grab like all my files and stuff, and I go. And drop my kids off somewhere safe. I go to the hospital. I get into the hospital and all of a sudden I'm swarmed by security guards. Apparently they had a description of me and that I was coming to the hospital because as soon as I, I got kind of far away, he showed up at home and my cars were gone. Mind you, all the vehicles are titled and registered in my name. Um, and so he, he called the law enforcement and told them that I broke the restraining order and I was having conversations with him and doing all this stuff. And so, um, that's why I went back to jail for the second time. But it was so, it was so scary because I felt like, um, I don't know if you've seen this, maybe there's, there's I can't remember what it's called, but it has Harrison Ford in it. And like, his wife was murdered and he was a doctor in Chicago and he's trying to clear his name by doing all this stuff. But like, he's wanted. And so he's, you know, just sneaking around.

I know, I know the movie, but I'm terrible with titles.

Yeah, I can't, I can't think of what it was, but I mean, it totally felt like that. I'm like, God, I feel like a A convict and, and, you know, all this stuff. I'm like, I'm not. I'm just trying to save myself. And I was trying to get away from this crazy person. Not crazy because they're very intentional. They know exactly what they're doing.

That's one thing I'll say, Stephanie. It just sounds incredible how he knew every move and everything to do. Like He's done this. He's, he's memorized and, and worked this like a thousand times. It's, it's almost like it was automatic. He knew, you know, what to say to you. He knew what to say to the police. He knew to make sure that he looked, you know, all bloodied when the police came. It's almost like he set up that whole scenario for you to go to jail.

Oh yeah, yep. And, and he did this to his first wife exactly the same. Exactly the same, but she was in jail for a lot longer than I was. I was only in there for a day, and then I went back for another day, but she was in there for like a month. Who does that?

That is— no wonder why women are so scared. Is this— is so premeditated. It feels, you know, premeditated. Like, yeah, it's pretty system— you know, systematically bringing you down. Like you said, as soon as, like, I don't need you anymore, this is the discard stage, you know. So how am I going to bring you down, destroy you, and get rid of you?

This is—

yeah, awful.

Yeah, yeah. And this is, this is one of the The ways they discard. Um, and so that's why I, I share my story to say, don't do what I did. Be smart about the way you leave. And, um, so I, I go to the hospital and I, I find my, my baby. And first they weren't even going to let me in because he told them that I was coming and he said the restraining order was against my baby. Like I tried to harm my, my child. And so I had to actually show them the papers that said, no, the restraining order is against him and I, not my child and I. And so I go and I see my baby and, um, he had drowned, but he, he was doing okay. And, um, so I'm holding him and singing to him and, and then one of the nurses come in and she's like, Ebony, the cops are— just showed up and they just told security they're looking for you. I'm like, I'm not going back to jail right now. And so I'm like, where's another way out? So I take the back stairs and my God, I was just praying the whole time. I'm like, make me invisible. Make me invisible. I don't wanna see any cops. I'm not ready to go to jail yet. Um, because I, I had my other 2 boys, you know, I needed to get back to the house and, and make sure that they're safe. I needed to check on my baby and make sure he was alive because no one would give me information if he was dead or alive. I didn't know anything. And so I, I get out of there miraculously and I go out to the parking lot and my car is like in the middle of probably like 6 Oh. And I just casually just walked to my car, get in my car and drive off. Um, I go and to see my kids and all this stuff. And, you know, in my head I'm like, okay, so what, what, what do I do? I knew I had to turn myself in, but, um, I, I wasn't going to do it. Then, so I waited in the morning and got a hold of my attorney, told him every— what had happened. As I was on the phone with him, the law enforcement showed up at the house. So obviously my ex knew everything. And so my friends were coming back to watch my kids, and I had to go back into jail. And, and I got out quickly and all the charges were, were dropped and everything. My name was cleared and stuff, but it still took like 2 months to, to deal with all of that. Um, and so that's, that's one of the ways that you can be discarded. And unfortunately, many, many women share a very similar story. To me in the way that they left or were discarded. But you know, I've had a lot of time to think about this, and and for me, my personality and who I am and the things I've been through, I don't know if I would have left him if it didn't get that bad. You know, like we, we all have this line, right? Or we like to think we have a line and it's our boundaries. And I thought going into this relationship after having a first horrible relationship with a different type of narcissist that I had boundaries. But what I actually had was, you know, the portable toddler fences. Where you can just, uh, construct them anywhere.

Yes.

I had a toddler fence as my boundary. And so, you know, I would like to think that I'm this strong woman and I have this firm boundary, but he would push up against that boundary and I would say, oh, okay, this isn't where the boundary should be. Let's pick up my toddler fence and move it over here. I move it over here and move it over here, move it over here. So it is not a boundary.

Yes.

Because boundaries, they don't move. And a boundary is, if you do this to me, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to leave. I'm not going to have this conversation. I'm not going to do all of this. And so for me, whatever it took, I suppose my firm boundary line was was jail, but it was also really seeing this, the side of him. And, you know, like a 3-day rage as compared to a 3-week rage, and just seeing all this stuff. It— I almost felt like I had to see that to believe it, in, in a sense.

Interesting.

Because I don't know if I would have left him. And, and that brings me to, to leaving. So statistically, women or, or men, um, it takes victims like 6 to 8 times of attempting to leave before they finally leave. Why is that?

Hmm.

Why, why, why does it, why does it take us that many times? Like, are we just that— we just keep changing our mind? Or, you know, I know there's, there's a love bombing because they'll love bomb you and draw you back. Because this is what happened to me, because I left and got a restraining order against him and filed for divorce in 2020 after we had been married for 9 months.

Oh, wow. It came out early. And it took 9 months for him to show up.

It was 2020. And but, but with, but with that time, I was so confused because his behavior was so different from when I first met him. And so in 2020, when I left him and filed for divorce and got a restraining order against him, I was so confused because it was 2020. Everyone was confused in 2020. Yeah, absolutely. And so you don't—

bombing couldn't have been worse.

Yeah, exactly. And so I was like, what was really truly his behavior and what was just reactions from all the suffering of the world? You know, like, I, I was, I was so confused.

Yeah.

And, and that's the thing, they, they keep you in this Confusion, fog. That's the cognitive dissonance where it's like, it's just so confusing. Are they nice? Are they mean? Who are they? And so, um, and then he, you know, the love bombing and stuff, and like his, his mom would, would all be in, he's changed, he's changed. Well, if someone really is truly changed, give them a couple of years. Let's see some, let's see some change and some growth. Not 2 months. But I didn't know it. I, you know, it was like, I loved him. I loved who he was when we first met and fell in love in that fairy tale stage.

Hmm.

And so, you know, then I let him come back. And so for me, having already done all of that, like filed for divorce, left him, did all this, And then he comes back and it's like, okay, well, it was great for like 3 months. And then the drinking started again, then the cycle, the devaluation, and then you're back in, sucked into this cycle of, you know, the cognitive dissonance and everything. And so why, why does it take us so long? Sometimes it takes us so long because we, we truly want to believe that they have changed. And that they are the better person. But they don't, they, they don't change and grow and become this elevated version of themselves in, in a month or a week or whatever. You got to give them a couple of years to do that. But the, the real truth is that what happens is we were in these relationships and everything is great until it's not. And when it's not great, that's when you start daydreaming of what your life could look like if you left them. Could you make it on your own? Could you? Could you do it? Could you survive? Could you get away? Do you have the money? Do you have the finances? And so you start daydreaming. And when you start daydreaming. It's, you know, you're using your imagination, you're, you're thinking, what if? And so what happens is it starts to, to create like this, this chaotic energy per se, because you want to change the status quo. And anytime you want to change the status quo, or, you know, alter the paradigm, whatever, there's going to be some Some chaotic energy there. Um, but you're like, okay, I'm, I'm gonna do it. You, you start to get emotionalized with, with this daydreaming that you're having of what your life could look like away from them. And then you take action on that and you do leave. You go stay the night at a friend's house. Maybe there was an argument, maybe some name-calling, some other things. You leave. You go to your friend's house. But when you, when you're over there, it's the, the worry and doubt kicks in.

Uh-huh.

Am I going to make it? Then the fear, that's the subconscious, you know, reaction to the worry and doubt is the fear. And then you go back because I call it the terror barrier. You have to get through that terror barrier. So you go back, he's nice for a little bit. Things are, things are good for a week and then it's back to the cycle because the longer you're with them, um, it just, it gets worse. It doesn't get better. And so you go back and it's been a week and it's like, oh my God, I'm back here again.

Yeah.

You start entertaining that idea again. Okay, well, maybe this time, maybe I should reach out to like a domestic violence shelter. Maybe there's some resources. Okay, let's entertain that. But at the same time, it's that worry and doubt, that fear. And so this is why it takes people so many times of attempting to leave before there's an actual leave, because you have to get past that chaotic energy phase. You have to get past the worry and doubt. You have to break through that fear and get to the other side. And when you get to the other side, like every time you go, that is confirming to yourself that, okay, you did it.

Yeah.

You did it. It might have just been 3 days, but you did it. You got sucked back in. Okay. Because we're, we're empathetic. We, we're hoping that they change. We just want them to love us, right? Why can't you just respect me and love me? I do everything else, you know. I mean, you have a pretty freaking good life because I'm doing everything else.

Mm.

And so we, we hold on to that hope. And again, you know, if, if they are in control of finances, if you, if you don't have money, if you don't have your own vehicle, if you are undocumented, like I said, if you don't— um, oh, but he's so good to the kids. I don't want to separate the family. Okay, so you're going to— what you're doing is, is modeling. That's what we do as parents. We model behavior, we model responses, we model For them, because we cannot control our kids. They have their own— they're here for their, their own purpose, doing their own things. But we can model, and they can see that. And so by staying because he's good to the kids, we don't want the kids to lose their father. You are modeling that this behavior is okay. Remember my 15-year-old? He said, why do you let him treat you this way? I don't get it. He did this to my mom. Yes.

Yes.

So we are modeling. And so the longer you stay, the longer you are modeling that this behavior can be tolerated. You will always forgive. You will always come back. You will always do this. And so I say to parents who say that, This is the behavior that you're modeling, and your sons and daughters will follow that because they learn relationships through you.

It must—

you are their first teachers.

It must be incredibly confronting though, too. And this is something I'd like to know how you did it. You're so emotionally battered and bruised, how do you find that inner courage. And for a lot of these women to be able to find that inner courage to leave and know that what they're walking out to, that there is possibly a better life for them. Because fear, fear always makes you think that, oh, the opposite is worse.

Exactly.

You know, he might hit me a little bit, but you know It's not that bad compared to being on, you know, who knows where I'll be.

Yeah. Well, we, we, uh, we justify everything. And when you have been in a relationship where there's a lot of gaslighting, where, and that's where they, um, you, you start changing your perceptions and your understandings of events and what happened. And so you start to doubt your own intuition. You start to doubt your own self because they will say that, well, you have no money. Well, no one will ever love you the way I do. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're so good at love bombing because remember, it's a cycle. So there's the devaluation, but then there's the love bombing. Yeah, there's the I'm sorry. But it's not, I'm sorry for what I did to you. It's, oh gosh, I'm sorry, I might have went a little too far. They're sorry for themselves. They're not sorry for their behavior. And so, you know, you— this is very complex because you have that trauma bond that is formed when there's that intermittent reinforcement, because the thing is, they can't be mean all the time. If they're mean all the time, we would all leave. They have to be good also. And when they're good, it's great. And then that gives us this false hope that they've changed.

Mm.

Oh, here's the guy I fell in love with. Here he is. He's back. And then, and then they switch it up with you super fast. And that's what keeps you confused. That's what keeps you trauma bonded to them. And that's another layer of complex complexity with these relationships. And so one, you have to, you have to get through that terror barrier, but you also, it's easier if you have the knowledge and the resources and the understanding, because that is what gives you power. So if you understand why you keep going back, If you understand that, oh, this is the cycle of abuse and it's not going to get any better because as soon as there's a love bomb, you know that something bad's coming. Um, is it— once you know about a trauma bond and what that is, and once you, you learn about the worry and doubt And the fear, um, you can take all that knowledge and then that gives you power to where you can say, oh, this is just, it's just a script they're following.

That's interesting.

But, you know, if you start reaching out to your friends and family and actually letting them know, but the thing is too, is that a lot of times in these relationships, you've been so isolated. Because remember, they want all your attention. They want all of you on them. And here I am, I'm in Florida by myself. I only have one friend in Florida.

It was the perfect scenario for him.

Well, yeah, yeah. And so, um, and here I am, I'm like, oh, we're moving to the Sunshine State, that's what we all need. We all need some sunshine. Oh, if he just got some sunshine, he'll be better. And so you sit here trying to, trying to change all the external circumstances, trying to change the environment, trying to change them, when really you can't, you can't change any of that. The only thing you can change is you. And so when you can let people know When you can get the resources and the knowledge, and this is why I share my story so that, uh, other people who are listening can have the knowledge, because with that comes the power. And then you can, you can get away and then you can work on yourself because nothing else is going to change.

Yeah, your story is Is so incredibly valuable for people. And I hope so many do find this episode, you know, these 2 episodes, because you really did understand for you to be safe and to move on in life, as you've actually, uh, said, you want to be the author of your own story of empowerment. You don't want to have— be known as a, you know, have a victim story. You want this to educate people of this is what happens, but you can author your own story. And you did it, you know, through the education and the awareness which you are now sharing with other people.

Yeah, yeah. And now that was a thing for a long time as well. Like, all these bad things just kept happening one after another, and, you know, it was like And then we moved to Florida, then we get hit by a hurricane. Oh, we got control of nature. I'm here. I know, I know. It's so, you know, it's like, God, why, why do all these bad things just keep happening and happening? And in the first episode, when I, in the intro, I think, you know, I'm like, I was on the floor of my sister's house, just like, why me? What did I do wrong? What am I missing here?

Yes.

And it was in that moment where I felt the divine saying to me, Stephanie, you are not the star of your story. When you— for so many years, I felt like this B actor in someone else's story. Like, this is my story. Why, why do I have all the shitty roles? That is why I have all the bad parts. Like, why does he get to be the star? Why is he the star of my story?

I love that. I love that. Why am I the B actor in my own story, in my own life, and he is the hero of the story?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow, that's really powerful.

Right? That Yeah, rewrite it.

That's right.

That's the empowerment.

That's right. It's, it's—

you have to break the cycle of whatever it is about, I guess, yourself that a lot of people are going to slam me for this, maybe that you're attracting in the same type of person, that all you are attracted to the same type of person. For some reason. And would you say in your experience it's because you weren't the A actor, you weren't the major lead in your life, you were taking the back step and making it all about the other? Or am I assuming there?

Uh, some of that. But you know, I've, I've had a lot of time to think about that, like why, why do we Why do I, why did I, the older version of me, continue to attract these toxic narcissists into my life? Because here I am, like, I, my parents modeled good relationships. My, um, I, I did incredible things with my life before I got into the relationships. So why, why did they keep coming? To me.

And they—

and I've heard, you know, some of the, the psychologists and stuff, they're like, well, narcissists are— anyone can be charmed by them. Yeah, I get that, but there, there has to be something deeper. There has to be something deeper than they can charm anyone. I mean, that's so superficial. Well, yeah, I get that, but why specifically? Why 2 of them? Uh, what, what did I need to, to learn from this or go through or like a why? And so for me, when I started to work on myself, do the inner work, understand, um, like our conscious mind, our subconscious mind, and, and how all of that comes together and works, I started taking a look at some of my deep subconscious beliefs around relationships. And so for me, I was, I didn't date very much. In fact, my, my first husband was pretty much my first boyfriend, probably second boyfriend, but you know, I didn't date a lot because I was very career driven and very focused on, on me. And, um, traveled all over the world, went and got a full ride at university, just, you know, all kinds of cool stuff. And I remember specifically when I was in high school, when I started, um, creating some assumptions around relationships. So I, all my sisters got pregnant pretty young and before they were, you know, married or in like committed relationships. And so I. I held a belief that, um, I was never going to get married. I was never going to be controlled by a man. I was not going to have sex because sex means I'm going to have a baby and I can't because I'm so driven and so goal-focused. Um, and I, I said, um, relationships are, even though, again, so my parents have modeled good relationships, they're actually still married. They're They're fine. Um, these are my own teenage assumptions that I'm coming up with. Um, I'm not going to let anyone control me. I'm going to do whatever I want in my life. I'm going to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I created these assumptions around relationships for myself. And the way assumptions work is they— An assumption is, um, is a way we define and declare ourselves to the world.

Mm-hmm.

And you might forget about these assumptions, but they've become emotionalized and buried deep within the subconscious. And so you don't, you're not always fully aware of them. And so when I got into the relationship, you know, it, with my first husband, it wasn't like, uh, I was head over heels madly in love with him. It just kind of seemed like it was the next natural progression in the relationship. Okay, we either break up or get married, take it to the next level, or, you know. And so what I found for myself is my— so assumptions are, um, they manifest in relationships. They can. Depend, you know, depending on, on what your assumptions are. And so when you think of relationships being reflections, they were in relationships and they reflect back, um, to you of who you are. And so who you are at that subconscious level, not who you are like, oh, I'm a narcissist, so they're coming in, they're reflecting narcissism back to me. No, but they're reflecting my beliefs back to them. So for instance, I have these beliefs that I'm not going to control, um, this and that. And so for me, both of my 2 ex-husbands reflected deeply held subconscious beliefs I had around relationships.

Wow, that is so powerful. And what an awareness.

That's from doing a lot of inner work and awareness, like you said, um, and, and understanding how our, our beliefs, how our assumptions, um, they are the core of who we are. And when you, when you know that, then you can sit down and say— this is what I, I tell people, I'm like, sit down and what are those deep subconscious beliefs that maybe you forgot about? I wasn't thinking about them, but here they are. I don't want to be married. Okay, well, here's a relationship that's going to show you you don't want to be married.

Ah.

I don't want, uh, all, all guys are— relationships are controlling. I don't ever want to be controlled by anyone. And that's the thing with, with the subconscious and, and the substance. You can't say in, in the negative or in the positive, it's control.

That's it.

Okay, so what? I'm having 2 relationships that are reflecting control back to me. So this is just my, my own thoughts from my, my study of myself. But it makes more sense than, than saying a narcissist can charm anyone. Well, yeah, I get that. But why? Why specifically me? Because I have lots of friends who weren't in these type of relationships. So what assumptions did I have to hold about myself that needed to be validated in the relationships that I had?

It's— that is such, you know, We know that around a lot of things, um, that we do, you know, whether it's career, whether it's our health, you know, relationships, our money, whatever it is. But this is such an incredibly important message, you know what, not only for people who are in a narcissistic or abusive relationship, but if you want to be in a relationship. It's about clearing your assumptions and the deep-seated beliefs you have about relationships, even if you're not aware. Even if you're not aware, go and see someone to see if there is some, you know, block that you have there for the type of person that you really do want to attract in your life, so you don't end up attracting like the men that you unfortunately did.

Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, uh, along with that as well is that, you know, we are— the things that are attracted to us that come into our life are things that are in harmony with who we are.

Mm.

And so if there are deeply held subconscious beliefs that you might have emotionalized and put there. And then you forget about them. Because I didn't remember. I mean, this took lots of digging. Like, I needed to know why I kept doing it. And, and so we attract who we are. We don't attract what we want and what we desire. We attract what is in harmony with who we are.

That's so true.

And so the, the good news is that you can let those go and you can come up with new assumptions and you can become greater, more fully expanded versions of yourself.

That's right.

And so that's what, that's kind of was my healing journey. I was like, you know, I don't. There's nothing wrong with me. There, I am not broken. I am not flawed. I do have some assumptions that I needed to fix, but but I see so many people going through their healing journeys like they do with fixing an old car. We keep trying to fix these old cars when why don't we just buy a new version?

That's good.

That is already fixed. So I'm actually, I'm writing a book right now, and it is, it's called Becoming Me: A Process for Self-Creation. And it's about, it's about, it's exactly what I did to heal myself. I just created An upgraded version of me, and this version of me is healed. This version of me is healthy, whole. This version of me was able to look back at the old version of me and my two ex-husbands and forgive them and let them go, and actually thank them because. They helped create this new version of me. And if I didn't go through those things that I went through, I would not be this, um, person that I am today. Maybe I would be sharing a different story on the podcast. And so we say that they don't, they don't define us, but they, uh, They propelled me into a grander version of myself that I did not know was possible.

That's amazing. I love that message. What a story, Stephanie. Honestly, part 1, part 2, please listen to both because they go together. They tell a whole tale. Which is incredible. And very— from the beginning where you think, oh my goodness, to now, you know, how you finished with such a beautiful version of yourself, you know. And you haven't come out bitter, angry, or destroyed, you know. And that's the beautiful thing. And that's a message I really hope the listeners take from this episode. So what's— what message of hope Stephanie, can you give to someone in a similar situation like yourself who's, who's actually going through what you went through and wants to come out the other end like you?

Yeah, you know, the— I talked about the terror barrier, and the terror barrier is real. The terror barrier is scary.

It'd be terrifying.

Um, it, it is scary, but you know what? We have to face our, our fears and we have to go through discomfort to grow and evolve. And so if you look at it like that, it's not going to get any better, but you can take everything that you went through and you can turn it into your superpower.

Mm.

And what, what, whatever that is. You know, I don't know what it is. It's whatever it is for you. But there is hope. There is a higher, more fully expanded version of you waiting to come out. And as soon as you believe in yourself and just do it— I live in Eugene, Oregon. Nike town. So every time I say just do it, I always laugh because I'm like, live in the home of Nike. But, um, but, but really, it's, it's hard to see it in that moment because we so desperately want them to change. We want them to see how wonderful and how lovable and how great we are. And we just want them to love us and respect us. But the thing is, is that it's not going to happen. It's just, it's, you know, and it's not going to happen. It doesn't matter. And the only thing that is going to be continually hurt over and over and over and over again is you. And so, yeah, it's hard to leave. Get all the courage and support that you can get. And know that it is never too late. I'm, I'm writing a book right now, and in my, um, another woman who's writing her book is on narcissistic abuse as well, and she's in her late 70s, and she's like, I left him. I finally left him. I wish I would have done it in my 30s, in my 40s, in my 50s, in my 60s, but I'm doing it now. And she's writing her book now.

Wow.

It's never— it's It's never too late. If you are 75, if you're 35, if you're 45, never too late. And, and yeah, it's, it's hard. I'm not gonna lie, it's hard. But I would always say to myself, you can do hard things. It's not impossible, and you will get through this.

What a beautiful message, Stephanie. Thank you for coming on and sharing this incredibly powerful story, and I hope that everybody who listens or watches it, you know, shares it out as far and wide to anybody who they know is struggling. And if you are struggling, there are many resources and community and government organizations that can help, so please reach out to them, put a plan together, stay safe. All the best. Thank you, Stephanie.

Thank you.

I would love to know what was the biggest insight or aha moment you got from this interview, so you can now speak up, take action, and make informed decisions for your health. And if you like this episode, Get instant access to your free ebook, Alternative Wisdom: Taking Back Control of Your Health, at life-onus.com.