The Real Fix for Inflamed Skin and Sensitivities (Yes, It Starts Inside)

Inflammatory skin conditions can feel like a constant battle— painful, unpredictable, and deeply frustrating. If you've tried creams, treatments, and advice that only offer short-term relief, then this episode is for you. Dr. Abreu is a leading research immunologist of 25 years and a skincare expert, and she'll be sharing the research how hidden immune Hormonal gut imbalances may be at the root cause of your skin issues. Welcome, Dr. Avery.

Thank you for having me, Rita. It's amazing to be here.

Oh, it's a pleasure. And you know, inflammatory skin conditions are so painful and really make people's lives miserable, especially if they're extreme, you know, like extreme eczema. So speaking about that, let's just dive in first. In case someone has one of these skin conditions and doesn't realize it's actually an inflammatory condition, and what are the skin issues connected to inflammation?

Let's talk about what inflammation is, because currently in the industry— this could be nutritional or beauty industry— inflammation has been marked as the enemy. And in its essence, it's not the enemy. It depends on what kind of inflammation is. It is a vital part of our body's defense system, and it keeps us alive. The inflammation we like is the acute inflammation. We want that inflammation, and that's when you have a cut or a bacteria or a virus attacks you, which we got attacked every day, every minute, to be honest. And this type of inflammation is small; it's controlled burst. And helps us get rid of the culprit, get rid of the bacteria or the virus, helps us heal from injury, fight off these infections, and maintain immune vigilance. So it is your private SWAT team. It's your private— I don't know, James Bond maybe. You know, it does everything. And, uh, that's what we call acute inflammation. It's essential. The problem comes from when this response becomes chronic and low-grade or micrograde without us even realizing it. And that is the silent inflammation, which we call inflammaging. It's combined, it's 2 words combined, inflammation plus aging. And it continues beneath the surface. It simmers down, it wears down the tissues, aging our skin, disrupting the immune functions over time. So So that happens way under. It's your silent enemy. It's not dramatic, but it's persistent. And what happens is it's a real threat for the long-term wellness, for the long-term health. And then there's the chronic inflammation, which we see during neuro neurodegenerative diseases, autoimmune diseases, cancer, eczema, psoriasis, acne. And that is chronic inflammation. It goes up, it cannot turn down. You know, it's always there and you see the effects primarily and you feel them all. So that is the loud one. The inflammation is the silent simmering one that's sneaky. And the acute inflammation is your friend who protects you against everything. So immune system is pretty amazing, actually.

You know, if we can just quickly go to like autoimmune, I always struggle when people say your body's fighting against you. I never think it is fighting against— I don't think your immune system does fight against you. It's just a sign of something that's out of balance.

Unfortunately, it does. You know, in an autoimmune condition, uh, let's say, uh, lupus or MS for that matter, For MS, multiple sclerosis, the body starts thinking the myelin tissue structure, it needs to attack it. It's a foreign object. It kind of— the immune system is so overwhelmed and it starts thinking, oh my God, this is against me. And the immune system's primary duty is to protect you no matter what the cost is. So when it comes to that, when it's really confused, let's call it confused, right? When it's really confused, it cannot make the differentiation between what is self and what is not self. So when it starts attacking the self, which is you, then it becomes an autoimmune disease. So there are a lot of factors that contribute to the autoimmune disease. There is the genetic aspect to it. There is the hormonal aspect. There is the chromosomal aspect. Um, there's the lifestyle also on top of it. So I wish it was so easy to say and pinpoint, like, yes, the culprit is this. It would make research so much easier, believe me. But it's not. Unfortunately, it's additive factors and it accumulates. And interestingly, it's different for everybody. You know, I may experience— God forbid, if I get lupus, I'm gonna experience it maybe different than somebody else.

Yes, yes.

So that makes it also a little bit different and difficult. It, it changes a lot of things. So autoimmunity is part of us, you know. Some of us get it, and unfortunately women are more susceptible to autoimmune diseases. For example, uh, rheumatoid, um, Hashimoto's thyroiditis. It happens in 9 women compared to 1 man. It's not fair, but that shows you the hormonal component.

How does this low-grade chronic constant inflammation express itself through the skin, and what type of conditions are people experiencing when they have this, you know, when it is expressed through their skin?

Skin isn't just a surface. Let's say that because we always think that that's where we end. No, we don't end there. It's an— we're an open system. Actually, we look like a closed system because we have the skin, but we're an open system. And your skin is not just a surface. It's also— we can consider it as an immune organ, and it is your body's first line of defense. So think it like another version of your immune shield, and here's how: it can recognize the danger, the cold, the hot, the wet, everything, right? Even negative energy. It can feel the weird vibes from your next-door neighbor. It feels everything because the main point is to protect you. So beneath the surface, so we have the skin barriers, we have the skin microbiome, and beneath all that. There is these immune cells that are constantly responding to the triggers like pollution, stress, UV light, allergens, bacteria, virus, even emotional stress. You know, that comes from your mind. So when your immune system in general is imbalanced or in your skin, it's not very happy. And whether this could be because of poor sleep, You're tired, stress, bad diet, toxins, and skin is always the first place to show it up. It mirrors it from inside out. The reason for that is the body tells you there's something wrong with pains and aches, or you feel like something is off, but sometimes that is not enough, and sometimes the body also reflects it in certain conditions. Through the skin, saying that, okay, there's something wrong. I'm talking to you. Are you gonna see me now? So this might look like redness, dryness, breakouts, sensitivity, and that's in a way your skin telling you there's something deeper going inside and help me. It's basically asking you, help me, because if you help— because it cannot solve the problem by itself anymore. It's pretty amazing. The system, the whole system is very— I love it. You know, I love the research.

There must be a gut-skin connection then. Can you tell us about that? You know, because a lot of people now with lifestyle and, and diet choices, they have a lot of inflamed or inflammatory bowel. So there must be that skin-gut connection. And the skin is then reflecting that in, I assume, you know, rashes, like you were saying, rashes, dry skin, eczema, or—

There is definitely a skin, uh, body, and a gut axis going on because in your gut you have a microbiome and 70% of your immune cells are over there. And here's why, because the gut, the intestines, it's passing through all these food and it's absorbing it. But one of the duties why you have your sentinels, your army, 70% of your army there, your immune army is there because it's trying to figure out, okay, it should not, whatever it's in the gut should not leak into the body without our control. Because you don't want to get like, for example, leaky gut, right? In the leaky gut, the cells and the connections are a little bit more wider. And then it passes through from the gut to the body, which you don't want. You end up with more inflammation. Because your immune cells say this shouldn't be here, and it tries to get rid of those. That's why you have inflammation. So your immune sentinels are there waiting. And also, they always ask me this question. We also have skin microbiome, but this is on my skin. The gut microbiome is inside. Are they talking? Yes, everything in your body is talking. Constantly and double-checking with each other. Like, think like a huge, huge company, huge company from the mailroom to the CEO, which is your brain. They're constantly talking. So when there is an imbalance in your gut, it completely shows up on your skin. This could be due to the inflammation, as we talked about, or if there is a bigger problem showing up, it could show up as Certain diseases, whatever the condition is.

If someone is experiencing rashes or dry skin or eczema or acne, you would suggest that then that is more of a root cause and they should seek out someone who can actually help them with that, like a functional doctor, integrative doctor, or some form of complementary practitioner. Going back to what you said earlier, About this tends to affect women more. So what does the role of hormones then play in things like a, like a flare-up of say eczema or rosacea or psoriasis or something like that?

I can't remember the detailed mechanisms of eczema and psoriasis because although they're all inflammatory, they have their own molecular pathways. But the thing is, evolutionary, women are designed to have stronger immune systems. That's it. That's pretty much it. And there is a very basic reason for that, because we become mothers and we have to care about the baby and the fetus. And what that does is we carry the genetic information to the next generations. So nature designed women to have stronger immune systems. I mean, think about you having the flu versus your husband, who— I mean, in our household, my husband is quite dramatic when he gets the flu and I'm still working, you know. And there is actually a paper, a couple papers about men flu, and I'm not kidding, it's called men flu in PubMed. You can go in and have a look. And that tells you the first line of defense, the innate immunity and the cytokine responses and the T cell and the B cell responses, which is the adaptive immunity. Are stronger in women. This is a double-edged sword. Okay, one sword protects you. However, the other sword can cut you. Every other side of the sword can cut you, and that is where why we have higher prevalence in women. Estrogen is one of the things, and then we have the double chromosomes, the X chromosomes. So the men have XY. Women have XX. So if we have one gene for a certain autoimmune disease on X chromosome, you have two of them. You know, it doubles, and so you get more susceptibility as a female compared to a male. And then there is estrogen. However, nature is interesting, and here's why. Let's say a person has lupus or rheumatoid arthritis or multiple sclerosis. And they get pregnant. What happens is during pregnancy, estrogen increases very, you know, it increases a lot. And the point there is, as when estrogen increases, progesterone increases, everything. The main point is for the body to prevent attacking the fetus as a foreign material and kick it out of the body. That's the easiest way I can explain it. But when that happens, That increased estrogen also starts turning off the immune responses in that certain autoimmune disease. So it's not attacking anymore because there's a fetus that needs to be protected. Amazing, right? Interesting. Yeah. So that is why during pregnancy, people with, uh, well, like especially females with autoimmune disease have less Symptoms. They have a little break because they're taking the body is taking care of the baby, growing the fetus. It's going, you know, it's going through stages. But you know, after giving birth and the estrogen starts decreasing, the symptoms return because the baby is born and the duty is done. Immune system is very intelligent. It tries like although it can work against you in an autoimmune disease, it still tries its best. To protect the fetus and give a viable, happy baby.

So I can understand why. So then if someone does have an autoimmune disease that expresses itself in the skin, why they may feel confused that when they were pregnant, maybe it wasn't as prevalent. And then once they had the baby, it came rushing back and they're not understanding. And that can confuse you to think that it is such— is only a topical Problem, not maybe an internal one. A lot of people— I don't think many people would associate your microbiome or your hormones with psoriasis or rosacea or something like that. Going beyond hormones, what about, you know, lifestyle in general? If we're talking about, uh, let's start with food intolerances. So yeah. Does food intolerance affect this? If you have a food intolerance, does that affect the skin? And which one would maybe affect the skin the most?

Oh, definitely. Like, I'm going to give a personal example here. For example, I'm acne-prone, okay? And my teenage years was horrible, horrible. And I— my body— I didn't like milk. I, I love ice cream, but that's different story. But I can't, I don't like milk. I don't like cheese. I didn't like yogurt. And I think there was an interesting reason for that because every time I tried even a slice of pizza, I would break out. And when I started getting into immunology and the research, I realized the connection between the milk, milk products, oleic acid in the milk. And my acne, because the studies showed that if I consumed more milk, especially, you know, skim milk or cheese, it was increasing my acne breakouts, right? So it could be like— there's a theory it could be due to growth hormones if they're present in the milk. I, I was a teenager at 8, like in the '80s. There wasn't growth hormones given to the cows back then.

Right.

So that kind of gets rid of that. But the high glycemic index because of the blood sugar spikes, no. And, but my problem was the oleic acid because then I realized in my further years, if I had an oil, for example, sunflower oil, high in oleic acid, and I tried it, I was curious and I put it side of my face. Oh boy, did I break it. You know, I broke off. So that tells you everybody's different, by the way. But what that told me was I didn't like eating cheese, or I couldn't even stand the smell of the milk. My body was in a way telling me, you can't do this because something is gonna happen. So sometimes it's good to listen to the body and not go and have the milk if you don't like the smell of it, that kind of thing. So definitely there is a food aspect to it because whatever you ingest, you're going to digest and the particles and the molecules are going to work on your skin or your gut or your muscles or something, right? So it depends. I think that somebody said, you are what you eat. So it has— that sentence has a truth to it. You are what you eat. If you eat too many fatty foods, you're going to become obese. You're going to produce estrogen in your fat. You're going to get more inflammation. Yeah, there's that. On top of that, because everything is connected, right? Chronic stress, the biggest enemy. And here's how am I gonna tie it up to the food. It's interesting. So chronic stress elevates cortisol, right? Cortisol, too much cortisol. What does it mean? So your brain is going through a fight or flight response, but it doesn't know if you're running around or hunkering down in the corner. Cortisol is up. It's still doing its trick, so it weakens the skin barrier. It disrupts the immune system. It kind of downregulates it, right? And then also, you are wanting more fatty foods, more high carbohydrates because you're stressed. Cortisol is up. You want to kick up the endorphins, so you are and you're ending up eating a tub of ice cream. Then you're getting all that fatty foods, which is spiking the glycemic index. And insulin is going all over the place, and then it goes down again after endorphins go up and you digested all that sugar and everything. Endorphin goes down and you're stressed again. See, it's a cycle. This interplay, what we call, is the skin-immune-brain axis. Everything talks, everything connects. So when this is imbalanced, if it's due to stress, And you're eating too much food and not good food. Let's put it that way. And it may also affect how you think. You may feel mentally foggy, emotionally drained, and then that affects everything. It affects your immune system, affects how your body functions. Your skin becomes more reactive. It it may become dry and prematurely age, which is the inflammaging. So that's why we need to think at us as a whole system. Not, oh, this is my skin, this is my body, this is my brain. It's a whole system.

You know, if you go to— this is one of my other questions, like, why do topical creams stop working after a while? And I feel that if you go to a dermatologist and they see your skin and it's inflamed, it's red, it's burning, rashes, whatever, they will give you, like you said, the steroids, which have their effects, or a cream which calms everything down on the surface. But what I'm gathering from all the information you've shared so far, it is totally internal expressed outward. So exactly, you have to look at where's it coming from for you specifically.

I think like 2 ways. So internally goes outward, outward starts looking like crap, and it gets more sensitive than outward, which is sensitive and unbalanced and disturbed. starts bugging inward, saying that, can you please help me? And the inward says, I'm already dealing with a lot of stuff. Can you stop, please? So it's constantly, constantly—

Having a—

Oh, yeah, it's, it's interesting. So the thing about the cream is, first of all, especially for females, we change even during the month. You know, like if you're going through your periods, if you're still in your reproductive years, At some time point in the month, you're very lovey-dovey, you're affectionate, and you then you become the devil itself. Then you're okay, normal for a couple days. At least that was how it was for me. And then the cycle begins again. So that one, like, think about that cycle. We're going through that cycle. So that affects mentally, and the hormones affect how your skin responds to everything and how your body responds to everything. So it's hard to be a female, no question about that. Men have it easier. There's— their changes are less drastic than females like us. What do we do? What do we do? What do we do in general? And that's what the beauty industry pumps to people. Oh, overload your skin with this, you're gonna look prettier. And then do the 10-step skincare, you're gonna look awesome, blah blah blah. And then When you do that, you're overloading your skin with too many actives and sometimes in the wrong style. Like, for example, if you're using retinol and then if you see a TikTok trend saying, oh, you need to use an acidic toner to exfoliate your face, that's a recipe for disaster.

Sorry, what sort of, what sort of toner was that that you said?

Acidic toners like HAAs.

Like an acidic toner? Yes.

Acidic toners. It's a it's a trend these days on TikTok. Also, when you frequently switch products, constantly switch products. This didn't work. I'm gonna try this. This didn't work. I'm gonna try this. You're not giving your skin the time to see okay this is working because the skin um the top layer that you see on your skin you have a a very thin dead layer of cells. Okay, so for that to change and a new one to come up, you need at least 4 to 6 weeks depending on your age. As you get older, that time increases to 6 weeks. So when you're using a cream or a product, let's say an anti-aging cream for that matter, you're not gonna see the big impact you want to see until 4 weeks because you need to get rid of the first layer where the new layer comes out happy and healthy. If you overload your skin because you're unhappy and you want to see results right now, or frequently switching the products, what's going to happen is it's going to confuse and overstimulate your skin barrier, your skin microbiome, and your skin's immune cells. And then what's going to happen is your skin microbiome balance is going to be disturbed. So you're going to have these little chinks in the armor, like think as the microbiome as one of the armors on the skin. And there's going to be these little chinks in the armor and the bacteria can get in. And there's only so much the immune system can do if you disturb your barrier and your skin microbiome. So the solution— what is the solution? The solution is to simplify and support. Every skincare that's designed out there is a preventative case. Okay, let's put it that way. The reason you're using skincare is to prevent further problems down the road. Like if you're dry, you moisturize so you don't get, I don't know, like cracky dry, and then you end up— you don't end up at a dermatologist, that kind of thing. So you prevent something even worse or unwanted to happen down the road. That's it. And you wanted to keep it simple. You know, I call it KISS, keep it simple, stupid. That's it. That's how we write the academic grant.

Marketing.

Yeah. But the reason is keep it simple, stupid is this. You want the minimal amount of products with the maximum amount of efficacy. You just need one cream that can do it all. It should be multi-targeting, multi, multifunctioning. And here's why. Because let's say you have 5 problems on your skin, right? Like dryness, dullness, wrinkles, dark spots, let's say. Okay, I counted 4. So technically, the beauty industry wants you to use 4 different products for these 4 problems. Okay. So even though if you're going out and buying the cheapest product, which I'm going to say, no, no, no, don't buy cheap product, because if you buy cheap product, you're going to end up getting a cheap result. That's it. But when you put 4 different products on top of each other to correct 4 different problems, what's going to happen? You're overloading the skin. Because there is a skeleton of that cream that carries the actives in that structure. So you're putting all that— think like you are painting the wall. So you're putting one layer, another layer, another layer. It's not gonna dry out, and it's gonna not look pretty at the end of the day, and probably it's gonna peel after all that paint, right? So when you use one cream You simplify it. You simplify it in the way that you're paying less money, you're actually using the product, and your skin will love it better because you're giving time for the skin to understand, okay, I have one cream, I don't have 4 layers of cream, you know. And focus on— and what you choose in your cream based on your needs is important. It should be high quality. It should come from a transparent company. The company should answer all your questions. It shouldn't say like, oh, I am high-end, you know, like very French. No, you're not rich enough to buy cheap products and bad service, and you don't deserve cheap products or bad service. That's it. Everybody deserves the best. So look for the formulas that work with the skin and with good ingredients, not one hero ingredient, a lot of things that work together to help restore its barrier, to support the skin microbiome, and reducing the visible signs of inflammaging, or, you know, all the signs of aging. So less is often more when it comes to the long-term health, you know, like Everybody says less is more, but there's a trick to it. So I'm saying less product, like less product, one cream, but richer inside, more inside of that product. So if you have more inside of that product with— I'm going to say niacinamide peptides, hyaluronic acid, snow mushroom, botanical extracts, good peptides, all that one in. You're not gonna need to like put a lot of product on your face. You're gonna end up using a little bit based on your need. So, okay.

Is that type of cream good for someone who already has inflamed skin or acne or psoriasis?

You know, first of all, nothing— I always highly recommend, uh, the Patients to go see their dermatologist, period. I wouldn't recommend anyone flat out with an inflammatory, serious inflammatory condition or an acne like chronic acne or a psoriasis or an eczema saying, "Oh, take this cream; it's going to be fine." No, that is flat out wrong because there might be something underneath that condition that needs to be addressed. It could be a hormonal problem. It could be another inflammatory condition happening behind. It could be even an autoimmune condition that this person is not aware of. So it's critical for that person to go and talk to the dermatologist or an endocrinologist or a practicing immunologist for that matter. You know, once those problems are solved and the skin is in a mediocrely happy situation where it's not completely breaking out and looking horribly angry, then yes, continue with a supporting, easy, simplified skincare routine because you want to do the preventative. Skincare is not for healing. Skincare is for prevention. Medicine and Rest of the stuff is for healing, and you can't be always in the healing phase because if you're always in the healing phase, there's something wrong there that needs to be addressed deeply.

Yes, and you're not going to find that with all these different creams that people are promoting on social media, you know.

Oh, definitely. Uh, well, I'm gonna comment on that one. We're on social media too. Everybody's on social media, but who you look at, to who you talk to, and who you believe in social media. Now that belongs to you. That is your choice.

Mm-hmm.

Like if an influencer is talking about inflammation and says, oh, the inflammation is bad, I go like, okay, that's my pet peeve. Don't do that. Don't do that. Because science is not simple. You are not simple. You are an amazing creature that has complex systems. You're not like, oh, you have inflammation, you're done. No, it's not that simple. So simplified information, yes, it's easier to convey, but it doesn't give you all the information you're going to need.

Yeah.

And it becomes then a tagline and a trend, and it just becomes crazy. For example, I think 2 months ago, I saw this weird video on TikTok. I don't like TikTok. I don't get on TikTok too much. But I was on it. So I saw this girl. She was putting poop on her face.

Sorry, what was that? Poop?

Poop.

Poop.

Like, you know, excrement. Excrement. And it was hers, I hope. I don't know. Like, where would you get somebody else's poop? And she was putting it on her face. Saying that it makes my skin like a baby's bum. I'm like, uh, and I'm thinking in my brain, is there possibly a scientific explanation why she would think that besides the weird, you know, TikTok trend thing? There wasn't any. I couldn't come up with anything. And people tried it. I'm not kidding you. There was videos after her Trying to put poop on their face, and I'm like, dermatologists are gonna hate this. And of course, other people started talking. I was like, please don't do this. We're we're ending up with patients having a lot of inflammation and infections on their face. Common sense, right? But sometimes people look for the easy solution, whether it could be a TikTok trend or something flashy. There is never an easy solution for a complex system like you, like your skin.

I love that.

It is not real. You know, a cream, a good cream is very hard to make. It takes years to establish the texture, the efficacy, the absorption, how it works, all that. It takes at least a year. At least for us, it takes a year. I'm a perfectionist. I'm horrible at that. But I want to, like, I have this checklist. It needs to be this. It needs to be this. It needs to be this. And our team is like, can we just release this? No, this is missing. We need to figure this out. And we constantly read the papers constantly. Where is there new information? Is there contradictory information about an ingredient? If there is, why is it? And then we look into the mechanism, how they did the experiment in that paper. None of the companies do this. None. Is that why—

is that why, due to like misinformation, the amount of chemicals that you see in skincare, some of the, um, promises that are touted that aren't true Is that why you developed Avasena skincare?

Yeah, there is another— that's another reason, because, you know, I was a consumer. I'm still a consumer, you know. And, um, when I was doing my research, you know, you get stressed, your skin acts out. Nothing worked. I mean, sounds very cheesy. Every brand owner says the same thing. Nothing worked. That's why I did it. But it was real. Nothing worked. And, um, you know, I started reading the ingredients and I'm like, there's just one product hero ingredient here that's supposed to do something and it's a really, really low percentage. So, um, it kind of made me mad, you know. I felt like inferior, like, like they were treating me like I was stupid. And I didn't take this personally, but that was a general consensus. Like, oh, the customer is not going to understand from cosmetic chemistry and all this. We can tell this. Well, maybe not everybody, but somebody is going to learn and say, uh-uh, this is not right, you know, or, and it's becoming more and more awareness is coming up these days. So that is why I started Avesina, because I wanted to share the knowledge, share the information I have on immunology, molecular medicine, all these pathways, skincare and everything. Because the reason you become a scientist and a researcher is to get more information, more knowledge, and at the end of the day, share it freely, share it to people. It could be academic community, it could be on a platform like this, which is amazing. But that's the thing, it's about sharing. So when somebody can listen to it and say, Okay, this is how it works. This is why. And everything clicks. Everything clicked in that moment when I was breaking out and trying zillion products. And believe me, when you're a student, every dime counts. And I'm like looking at this like shelf of stuff, you know, everything. And I was like, uh-uh, this is not— it clicked. I was like, no, I'm gonna look into this. I'm gonna learn this. I'm gonna Get into cosmetic chemistry. I'm going to learn more of this. And that's how it started. I started learning, and it's been a very long journey, but I loved every minute of it. I loved every information I learned, and I loved sharing all that information I learned. So that's what Abyssina is. We share knowledge, and we're happy to share that knowledge through products, through, uh, you. Which is great. And, you know, that's kind of about it.

That's fantastic. And honestly, this has been so good because what you've done to help people who have skin conditions is that you've informed them that really you have to look at the root cause, find the root cause first. Don't think it's just a topical thing. There is something deep happening inside, and that's through finding a practitioner that can help you. And then Look at your lifestyle, look at your diet. What are some of the contributing factors? But also stay away from all the toxins and all the, all the chemical type of cheaper skincare products and go for something like yours, because I believe yours is totally natural, it's nourishing, and it's also logical.

A little addition there. So there is also in the beauty industry, in the indie beauty industry, Um, natural is good. Okay, not everything natural is good. Not everything synthetic is bad. It depends on which ingredients you choose. I mean, arsenic is natural. We're not putting that on our face, right? We shouldn't. It's not a good thing. But for example, peptides are synthetic, and here's why: because they're made in the lab for the cleanest, most efficient way. Because you want those to be as clean and as molecular as possible. So that's made in the lab. That is synthetic. So that is why you need to choose the natural ingredients, nature-based ingredients, and synthetic ingredients, the best of them, and combine of them in the best of the worlds. That's how everything works.

Got it. And that makes sense. So for anybody who does have skin aging or some form of inflammation or inflammaging, so inflammation that's aging their skin, do go to our, uh, show notes because we do have a discount code there for the Avesina products. And honestly, I've had a look at it and it sounds fantastic. They look great. And obviously they're very effective because you've put in the research. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge and your research around skincare. What are the root causes and then what to do about it?