Why Authenticity Is Your Greatest Business Tool

I think I would have self-shamed less if I had been a blubbering mess. Like, it was— I think that there's culturally, it would have been more appropriate if I'd just been crying all the time because that's kind of what chicks do.

Yeah.

So being angry was— I was dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings around that because it was kind of not socially appropriate for a female to be, you know, so furious. We kind of associate that aggression and all of that with men. Um, so I think the anger is definitely related to the PTSD.

Hello and welcome to Beyond Diagnosis, a podcast to raise your awareness, decisions, and voice for alternative practices so you can take back control of your health. I'm Rita De Michele, your host, a mindset and empowerment coach, and the founder of the Onus platform. Join me each week so you can create the I know you have a personal story to share, and before we talk about that, I'd like to know a little bit more about what you do, why, and how you help people move forward in life. Welcome to the show, Lisa.

Thanks, Rita, for having me on. Uh, it's lovely to be back podcast guesting after a bit of a break. Um, yeah, so let's jump right in. What do I do? How do I help people? I mean, look, I've been in business for myself for coming on 8 or around about 8 to 9 years. And over that time, things have evolved.

Yeah, they have.

As, you know, we should, right? We're all supposed to evolve and grow and change. So in terms of what I do, I now speak about being a rockstar strategist. And for me, what that means is that I've realized my superpower in my strange little brain is I tend to see the world from a different perspective. I tend to see problems, issues, challenges from a different perspective to a lot of people. And I think I probably self-identified for most of my 43 years as a weirdo because of that. And it's only, you know, the last couple of years that I've realized this is an advantage. This is something that's actually really cool that people can come to me with an issue or a problem or a challenge and my funny little brain likes to turn it, you know, upside down and sideways. And what if we look at it from that angle? And so that's what I mean by a strategist is because it's a bit more about like pulling apart a problem, looking at all the pieces and then putting back together into— picture that suits the client better, right? So whether that's in their business or in their life, basically people come to me when they think, usually this is what I get, God, Lisa, I'm tearing my hair out. I've looked at this every which way and I can't figure it out. Here's the problem. And they present the problem and they think that they've looked at it from every angle. But like all of us, we can only see things from our own perspective, our own points of view, our own life.

Exactly. Yeah.

Um, and so I will ask great questions and pull the topic or the issue apart and look at it from different angles and ask questions about, uh, whatever it is from those different angles. And what I find happens is that I get the response of, oh, I never thought about it like that. I've never looked at it from that angle. I never considered it from that point of view. And when we do that, when my clients get the opportunity to see the issue or the challenge from a different perspective, a whole department in their brain cracks open.

Opens up, I bet.

And they have new solutions that they never considered because they weren't looking at the problem that way.

Um, so do you feel that you, that then you open, open them up to a whole lot of other possibilities? So actually what you're doing is exposing them to possibilities that they didn't even know existed, or they— because, you know, we all sort of view life in a bit of a tunnel, don't we, until we shine our light a lot further, light brighter, you know.

I mean, get used to the way that our world works, right? Our world view, level of comfort and familiarity in that. And unless we're really challenged or pushed towards the edges of that, you know, whether you go and do that deliberately and go and walk on hot coals at Tony Robbins or something like that and push yourself out of your comfort zone, normal environment.

Yeah, totally.

Or there is a life instance, whether it's a, um, you know, a relationship breakdown or a job ending or whatever it is, that also is gonna push you beyond that zone of familiarity. Um, I tend to not call it the comfort zone because people will stay there even if they're uncomfortable. So I tend to refer to it as the familiar zone.

Um, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.

Very— it's very powerful to stay there because it's familiar and it feels safe, even if a lot of the times it is uncomfortable or there's things happening that you don't particularly like. It's— we fall into that kind of better the devil you know sort of situation where we're like, well, yeah, my relationship's not great, but at least I know how to handle the other person. Whereas if I leave, there's a whole bunch of unknown, way more terrifying.

Would you say, Lisa, sorry to cut you off, but wouldn't you say that, you know, we both know that the subconscious mind dictates everything, you know? So that sub— that subconscious mind of keeping us safe, keeping us with— within our boundaries, keeping us within what we know is what's stopping them from getting out of that familiarity zone, as you call it, you know, to that scary unknown, because That's the whole thing, isn't it? We always perceive it as scary, but it's not necessarily scary. It's just the unknown.

Unknown. Yeah. Unfamiliar. 100%. I think that it's important to acknowledge that human beings are deeply, deeply wired for safety. Um, yeah, in our DNA, we know what evolutionary, you know, berries we shouldn't eat because they might kill us. You know, like, go, it goes way, way back. We don't wanna risk upsetting the tribe because being in the tribe in the village keeps us safe rather than if we're on our own. So there's a lot of behaviors, uh, you know, into 2023. I mean, you know, you couldn't— it is obviously the furthest we've been since cavemen and running from saber-toothed tigers. And but the programming, the base operating system programming is still there, not that dissimilar. Um, except now our challenges are What if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs? If you're not, Google it, people. You know, it's that safety, it's that bottom rung of, you know, am I financially safe? Is my housing stable? Do I have enough food on the plate? You know, there's a level of safety and stability that drives us, but we're not running from tigers anymore. We wanna make sure that we keep our jobs. So sometimes we keep quiet in a shit situation at work because it's important to keep the job Or relationships or housing situations or friendships or anything, anything really, isn't—

or even like, this show really does focus on health.

Yeah.

So I find that a lot of people won't go outside of their, what you call, familiarity zone or their comfort zone to seek out those different options, especially when it comes to functional integrative alternative. that may give them an answer.

Yeah.

To what they're seeking because of that fear, because of the unknown, because we're so wired for that safety. And we've been told that, you know, there's only one stream in the medical system that you should actually be working with. You know, that's the whole essence of this show is trying to open up, like, from people like you who obviously work with people's mindset In trying to open them up to try something new.

Yeah, yeah. I'm all about mindset and emotional wellbeing and, yeah, yeah, yeah. And physical wellbeing. Um, I think it's really interesting to reflect on the culture with which you've grown up in. So, uh, I personally grew up in a very Western medical model type household. My father is a doctor, my uncle was a doctor, my mum was in the medical field. I was an ambulance paramedic. clinic, it was very much in that Western medical model. You know, that was the environment I grew up in.

Yes.

Whereas people that grow up, I think, with a bit more exposure to things like traditional cultures, whether it's Ayurvedic culture from an Indian background or people that grow up with, you know, their grandparents making things because they have a culture of traditional Chinese medicine I think depending on what you're exposed to, um, determines what's— what comes within the boundaries of that familiar zone. Um, so for, for people like you and I that grew up very Western, in terms—

Yes.

You're sick, you go to the doctor. If you need to talk to someone, you see a psychologist. Um, you know, these are the— these are the options. That's it. Um, then for us functional medicine, integrative medicine, Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, uh, all these other, you know, uh, options lay very much outside that familiar zone for sure.

Yeah, definitely, definitely they do. And one of the things I find, and I don't know if you find it in your work as well, is the fear around people using these other options Because they always rely back on the, it's not proven, it's not scientific, it's not. But you know, if it's been going for thousands of years in these cultures, you know, for me that is proven. You know, like they've gone through all the testing. Unfortunately, their testing was like maybe people dying, but you know, they've gone through a lot and you know, they've shown that it works. So yeah, for me it's very much about wanting people to see what else is available to them and just not accept— don't just accept what you're being given. Don't just accept that you may have a diagnosis or you may have a condition and you're given this or that and that's it. Or there may not be an answer and you get the old just live with it, you know.

Yeah, I heard a quote years ago. I'm Pretty sure it was Deepak Chopra. And he was— he— what he said was, you can— so he's a medical doctor, but he's obviously got a very, um, spiritual aspect to—

Yeah, he's amazing.

Um, and he said, you can accept the diagnosis without accepting the prognosis. And so the diagnosis is, here's what's wrong with you, this is what you've ticked the box for, or this is what your tests show. And the prognosis in medical terms is this is how it's going to be now from here on out. And so I think it's really— that really hit home for me that it's okay to go, okay, cool. So I've got X condition or, you know, whatever it is, this diagnosis, but I'm going to question the authority of the prognosis. So I can accept, you know, at the time back in 2013, 2014, I was diagnosed with PTSD, anxiety, depression, and I accepted the prognosis, um, immediately, which was, uh, you know, well, this is it. This is you now. Uh, I was 32, 34, let me think, 34.

Yeah.

Um, and was basically told, this is it. Um, the best you can do is take your medication, hope we get the medication balance right, and it doesn't, you know, the side effects don't too much and try and avoid your triggers and live the best life you can. At 34, at the time I had a 2-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a 14-year-old. And I accepted it and I went, okay, well, if that's, you know, that's the deal. And I sat on the couch for about 3 and a half months trying to be that person. Okay, well, this is me now. I'll just sit here and watch Netflix. And I have referred to that period as Uh, I was really like a shell of Lisa, you know, um, like, you know, those cicada shells after the insect has left away and it looks like a cicada, but if you, you know, you grab it and crush it, it's hollow. So I certainly looked like Lisa on the couch, or I look like mum on the couch, um, but I really wasn't there. I wasn't present. I wasn't engaging with my family. I was a husk of Lisa in the shape of Lisa on the couch.

I absolutely love that analogy. Lisa, do you feel that? the medication that you were given? Was, was that the side effects of the medication, or do you feel it was just your— the overall, um, feeling from the depression, the anxiety, or was it a combination, do you feel?

Yeah, it's a good question. So by that point, I'd been on antidepressants for nearly 10 years anyway, um, so it's kind of hard to remember a baseline. I guess. Um, all I can, all I can speak to is my experience, which was that for me, um, some symptoms I think were, or some experiences I was having were like the condition, so to speak. So, um, my primary PTSD symptom was anger. Um, I was, I was very angry at everyone all the time, mostly at myself. Um, I actually broke bones in this hand punching the pantry door once, uh, kicked a hole in the wall in the bedroom. Very angry. And it was really confronting, I think, particularly as a, as a woman, to be dealing with that level of rage and anger. Uh, I think I would have self-shamed less if I had been a blubbering mess. Like, it was— I think that there's culturally, it would have been more appropriate if I'd just been crying all the time. Um, because that's kind of what chicks do.

Yeah.

So being angry was— I was dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings around that because it was kind of not socially appropriate for, for a female to be, you know, so furious. We kind of associate that, uh, aggression and all of that with men. Um, so I think the anger was definitely related to the PTSD. For me, when I came off my medications Some things definitely disappeared, primarily just that brain fog, just complete. Um, so I used to talk about it felt like my brain was full, my head was full of cotton wool, and it was really hard to think through that. Um, and I didn't have clarity and I didn't have energy, and it was just everything was just very cloudy and, and muddy. Um, Coming off the medication, when I did that, that fog lifted. Um, so in my own experience, which is all I can speak to, I suspect that that was a result of some of the medications I was on as opposed to the underlying, uh, conditions that I've been medicated for.

Yeah. And going back to when you said about being a shell of yourself, So that is a really hard— that's a really hard place for people to be in and then to think about getting themselves out of it, to then take themselves off medication, to have the courage to try something different. So can you sort of speak to that? Like, how, how did you find that internal strength to be able to do that? Because most people just, you know, And I say that, like we were saying, they're too afraid to even change doctors, even if it's still within the traditional medical, let alone go to someone functional or alternative. And yet here you are at that state and you've transitioned to a whole new state. Can you kind of elaborate on what you had to, what you had to go through to make that happen?

Rita, if I knew what got me off the couch, I would bottle it and I'd be selling it.

You'd be a millionaire now.

Yeah, $54 million question. Like, I've been asked that on many podcasts before, you know, how did you get off the couch? And I guess having an understanding now of human behavior, humans are reasonably simple creatures. We like to think we're very complex, but we're actually kind of simple in that we either move towards something or we move away from something. And that's essentially how our motivation works. So we either move towards something, we're drawn to it, we're like, that looks great, I'm gonna go for that, uh, or we move away from, we go, I don't want any of that. I'm moving this way, right? And again, it's very primal, right? We, we move.

Absolutely.

Keep our distance from fear because we, uh, from fire because we know we'll get burnt, right? So it's that moving away from motivation. And often what, um, people think is that they need to find something that's moving towards motivation to get started to do a thing. I have to know my purpose. I have to set a goal. I have to know where I'm headed. When in my experience and my recommendation would be, if you know what you don't want, just start moving the opposite direction. So for me, I had no idea that I would end up doing coaching training. I had no idea about obviously the years that have followed and all the things that I've done since. No clue. The future for me was pitch black. I had no idea. All I knew sitting on that couch and having my, you know, my family kind of rotated around me, you know, my husband made sure the kids had lunch for school and they, they had clean uniform and, you know, the world kept moving and they would sort of drop in and give me a kiss on the cheek and say goodbye and whatever. But I really wasn't engaged.

Yeah.

And all I knew was, this is not okay. This is not the mother I want to be. Like I said, I had a 2-year-old at the time, and, you know, he would come up and curl up with me on the couch and ask if I was feeling better. And I was just like, do you know what? I— when he's 10, I don't want this to be our relationship. Like, this is, this is not when I fought, when I, when I advocated with my husband to have a child. Um, this was not the mothering that I envisioned. Um, I was like, well, this is, this is not good enough. Like, this life of sitting on the couch and trying to find something to watch and distract myself from my world and being disconnected from my family. All I knew is this, this what's happening right now, this is not okay.

Yeah.

I don't know where I'm going or what I'm gonna do or how it's gonna pan out, But I don't want any more of this. So I need to get up and figure out a way to do not this, whatever that is. And very often that away from motivation is the thing that will kickstart somebody's movement, even if they're really not clear on, you know, I didn't sit down and write a list of, you know, goals. I didn't get a planner and do my SMART goals. There was none of that. I just went, It's just shit and I hate it and it's not okay and my family deserves better and my kids deserve better. And I did it initially for them before I could do it for myself.

That's usually the way, isn't it? Especially as a mum. I find— yeah, I find that I've changed so many things in so many ways of doing things and really have done so much. Like, I did a lot of work on myself before But really ramped it up once I had my son because, you know, they're usually the ones that you look at and you think, what— who do I want to be and what do I want to be for them? You know, how do I want to show up, you know, for them?

How do I want—

How do I want to show up? So you really start— it's— I think it starts off as an extrinsic motivation, but then you have to build that intrinsic motivation. to keep it going. What, what is that? What happened for you?

Yeah, I guess that extrinsic kept me going for a long time. Yeah, like it was definitely a few years of, uh, showing up because I was very conscious of the, the parent that I was being and the partner that I was being and, um, caring about those people and wanting them to have a better experience of me. That absolutely was the drive for a good long time, probably until it was pointed out to me that I was doing it for them, you know, and then an awareness, like, because that wasn't conscious, right? And then an awareness was brought to me that you also deserve this. all the work you're doing, all the bettering you're doing, all the growth and development you're doing, and the weekend after weekend and day after day at trainings, and, you know, learning all the things that I was learning and all of that, that this, this can't just be about them, and it's okay for you to want it for yourself as well.

Absolutely.

And that's when I started exploring What are those blocks, right? Why is it easier for me to do it for them than it is for me to do it for myself? And what is that about, right? And that's all that mothering slash martyrdom that most of us got modeled to us by our mums, right? Like, we— my mum still puts herself last, and everyone else has to have food on the table before she'll come and plate hers up, you know? Like, that was shown to me as um, how you mother and how you love is by making yourself the lowest priority and doing everything for everybody else first. Um, and so I— having that awareness brought to me allowed me to then go on a journey of challenging all of that and working out what do I want to keep from that programming, what's useful, and, uh, what can I get rid of.

Absolutely, because that is a very— that is a very familiar song, isn't it? That's how I was brought up as well. You know, it's very— and I think, you know, like our sort of generation, it was very much still, um, a strong aspect of that mothering. You know, it's all for the other. Um, I think it'll be really good to, um, let people know, was it a form of— did that move into sabotage is what I'm trying to say here. Did that— do you feel that that moved into sabotage, or do you feel it was just more about people pleasing?

Yeah, interesting. Great question. I think there was definitely like, I was an excellent and probably still am a very, you know, high-level people pleaser. I do want, you know, the people around me to be happy and all that stuff. I guess where my line is, where my boundary is of what I'm willing to compromise in myself to achieve that people pleasing outcome has shifted greatly. over the few years. And I think, yeah, I think to some extent it probably— I held myself back, and perhaps my progress may have been over a shorter timeframe. I might have got to where I was going quicker if I'd sort of gone all in, so to speak. And well, you know, you kids could sort out your own lunch. I'm just gonna do this for myself. Um, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Like, I don't look back and think, oh, I wish I'd done that. Um, because the experiences I've had, like, everything is, is growth and learning, right? Um, but yeah, I guess if I had just, um, checked out and taken myself off to a, an ashram in India and, you know, gone and meditated for 6 months, then maybe, maybe the whole process would have been sped up. I would have come back you know, 2 years earlier than it took me and gone, oh, I'm, I'm where I want to be now. Um, but everyone's on their own, you know, everyone's on their own journey, right? We walk our own path.

Absolutely. You only know what you know at the time, and we only do what we do from what we've known. So yeah, I mean, I would have done it very similar to you, and I did go through certain things, and I did do it very similar to you. So what, what sort of, um, what did you do? You know, what's some specific things that you can share with the audience that you did that really propelled you onto that path from getting off the, from getting off the sofa to where you are now?

Yeah, I, um, it was all very, uh, at the time At the time, I still believed in coincidence, which I don't now. But it was all very sort of serendipitous. So what I sort of talk about, if you imagine a pond with lily pads on it and I'm the frog and I sort of hop from lily pad to lily pad. And what I find in my life is when I'm on my path, so to speak, and I'm, I'm moving in flow and I'm going the direction that I'm, you know, call it whatever you want, the universe, God, whatever wants me to go, or I'm serving my soul purpose, or whatever language you want to put around it. What tends to happen is the next lily pad will pop up and I go, oh, well, that's easy. Okay, I'll just pop and I'll do that. And then the next one will pop up and I jump on the next one, and it tends to just sort of flow. When I find myself sitting there going, where do I jump next? Or this is really hard, or, you know, obstacles come up, or I'm sitting and I'm waiting for someone else to sort of, you know, they'll get back to me and I'm twiddling my thumbs. Often that, to me, I interpret that as this is not the path for me, right? So I had a very lily pad to lily pad kind of experience from the couch. I ended up speaking to someone. I wanted to, I'd primarily been the main breadwinner prior to being diagnosed and not being able to work anymore. And so I was concerned about paying bills and all that sort of stuff.

Sure.

So I got involved with a group that was, you know, selling some face cream products or whatever and they were like, this is a great way to make money. And I went, all right. And went along and very quickly determined that was not the path for me. But what it did was connect me to a group of people that had entrepreneurial thinking and a group of people that were of the mindset that if you want something to happen, then you make it happen as opposed to sitting there, you know, waiting for the arrival of, I don't know, Tatts Lotto win or, you know, I'll just wait here for magic to come to me. So it was a mindset shift now being around a new group of people, right? Basically, 3 Lily Pad pop-ups later.

Yeah.

I found myself at a, um, a school, a life coaching school place that did training, uh, and I went along for a weekend and did 2 days and thought, oh, okay, well, this is, this is interesting and I've been challenged and okay. And then I went along to the following weekend and Was strongly challenged again, because I was at that time I was very what's the word defensive of my victim status. I had PTSD. I had fibromyalgia. My body was sore all the time. I had gastric issues, and I remember sitting, you know, sitting in the. In the classroom with my arms folded, you know, no one's gonna help me. Read the body language. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I'm angry and I'm tired and I'm sore and my life is hard and I gave all I had to that career and I've been screwed over. And, you know, these were my narratives. And, um, and the lady at the front of the room, the trainer, and she said, um, you know, are you happy with your life? And I'm like, no. This sucks. And she said, what do you want? What do you want your life to be? I was like, well, I don't want to be angry, and I don't want to be tired, and I don't want to be in pain anymore, and I don't want this, and I don't want that. And she sat and she listened and she nodded, or she stood there and listened and nodded. And okay. And she said this one sentence. She said to me, so I have a very clear idea of what you don't want. What do you want instead? And it was like someone had hit me in the face with a brick because what I realized is that I had not attributed any time. I'd not allocated any time to thinking about what I wanted and what I wanted my life to be and what I wanted things to look like and how I wanted to feel in my body. I was absolutely fixated on what I don't want. And as I now understand it, what you fixate on is what you see more of, what you program your brain to give you more of. What you get more of. And you get more of it. So I was getting all the things I didn't want. I'm angry, I'm sore, I'm broke, I'm, you know, um, and so that's what life was serving me. And I came to that realization from her question that I had not at all considered the opposite. And that was really a turning point for me to start working out what that looked like. What does that look like? How do I wanna feel? Oh my God, what would I like to do for a job? Where would I wanna live? Oh wow, right? Just like a possibility bomb got dropped on me and all I had was options. Oh wow, the world is a much bigger place than this list of things I don't want that are making me miserable. Oh, that's quite a different perspective. Um, and so from then I basically did every course that this school offered at the time. Um, so I did my neuro-linguistic practitioner training, I did neuro-linguistic programming, Master practitioner training. I did behavioral, what's it called? You know, human behavior qualifications and everything they had.

You did. Give it give it to me. I'm ready.

How to run workshops. How to yeah hypnosis. Like all the things. I was like great. So I've got a big book of all my certificates because I did everything that at the time they had on offer. Uh, over about an 18-month period. Um, and it was actually at the end of that 18 months. So by this time, it's about November 2015. Uh, I was just about to embark on a 10-day intensive master practitioner of NLP program.

Mm-hmm.

Um, for anyone that's done this, uh, you will know it's It, it's, um, messes with your head is what I'll say.

I've actually, I've actually done it, so I, I actually understand.

Yeah. So practitioner training in NLP, I guess, gives you a structure and a framework, and it sort of teaches you the rules in inverted commas. And then master practitioner smashes that wide open and breaks all the rules. So, you know, it's, it's very next level. The day before I was due to show up. So we started on the Saturday, and Friday, uh, prior, the day before, um, I had been considering, um, ceasing my medication. So at that point I was on antidepressants and, uh, and the pill and some other tablets. I don't really remember now, but a few.

Yes.

And I'd really weaned them down, but like I was on one every second day already. Like I was pretty low dosing, you know, most of that stuff anyway. Um, just, you know, FYI, coming off antidepressants is absolutely something you want to do slowly and potentially guided by someone, a doctor, because it can be really tough on your body and your mind. I would not recommend anybody just cold turkey off these things. So I had already, um, whittled it down. Uh, and the day before, the pharmacy where I used to fill my scripts burnt down.

Oh God, of course.

So, Rita, I had no choice but to take it as a sign from the universe that you needed to stop.

You needed to stop.

It was time to try life without tablets. And like, I will only ever advocate that was— that was the right decision for me at that time. And I'd been doing a lot of work since then. I don't, you know, like I said, I don't recommend anyone just sort of, uh, chuck them in on a whim. It's really got to be a very Considered decision. Um, but that was for me, that was like, oh, okay, well, maybe, maybe now's a good time.

Um, it's a sign.

And then I started my 10 days of Master Practitioner. Um, so yeah.

For people that don't, for people that don't understand what NLP or Master Practitioner is, do you wanna just give a little synopsis on that? And, you know, about the the mindset changes that they teach. Well, not necessarily about what they teach, but how you did that to change your beliefs, to change the way you were thinking, to change your, your, your, your headset, you know, so you could move forward. So just a little, just a little, you know, note on what NLP gave you or what it is and what it gave you.

Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So I've since become an NLP trainer. Further down the line, so I should be able to answer this quite technically. Um, look, ultimately for me, my interpretation is that neuro-linguistic programming is a, a set of philosophies and techniques, or philosophies and processes, um, that provide a framework for the way that you look at the world and the way that you interact The world.

That's right.

So, um, uh, it's, it's a tool. I know that there are a lot of people that are fearful of NLP or they're, um, you know, uh, there's some negative feelings towards it or it's got connotations of being manipulative and whatever else. I would say I refer to it as a tool like a hammer, uh, and I think I said this to you when we had our chat, right? So NLP to me is a tool like a hammer. If I hand it to one person, they can, they can build a cubby house for their kids with the hammer. If I give a hammer to another person, they can, you know, knock someone's block off and rob them, right? But it's not the hammer's fault, right? A hammer's just a hammer. So a tool or a set of tools in neurolinguistic programming is just that. And how it's chosen to be used and applied and all of that stuff, that comes down to things like individual integrity and intention, um, and stuff like that. So Um, what I found really profound when I did my, my first, uh, practitioner training in NLP, so there's essentially 2 levels as practitioner and master practitioner. Um, and then you go on and do trainer training and whatnot. Um, what I, I guess was profound for me was that I was very set in my point of view of the world. Like I said, arms folded, here's all the reasons that I'm miserable and I'm justified in my misery. And at the same time, uh, I wish I wasn't, you know. And that's what I was sort of— that's what I came in with was this belief system, um, a set of beliefs that was making me miserable. And, uh, that NLP training, the first time I did PRAC, uh, I definitely recommend doing it more than once. Um, Was the first time that anyone had even suggested that your beliefs could be changed, that the way that you view your world is not actually objective. I hear a lot of people talk about reality, right? Well, the reality is, and I'm like, well, reality is a little, you know, more fluid than people like to think. like we said before, right? We've got our program, we've got our familiar zone, we've got our safety bubble, we've got the way we see the world, and that becomes our reality and our truth, right? This is the way the world works. Everybody, everybody's out for themselves. Money is the root of all evil, right? We've got all these stories.

That's right.

Yeah, it becomes your truth in your world. And sitting in that room for the first time and having somebody explain up the front both, I guess, philosophically and somewhat, you know, neuroscientifically, um, NLP being born out of the positive psychology movement in the 1960s. Um, you know, so they talk about how you're, you know, the actual neurology of your neurons firing together and wiring together and how we come to believe what we believe and, and those sorts of things. Um, that's the first time anyone had said any of that to me. I'd never read a book about any of that sort of stuff. Never heard a podcast, never watched a video on YouTube. So it was the first time that I was introduced to the idea that I had choice and that if there were things that I wanted to change in my life, it wasn't about sitting there and waiting for them to change. It was about me changing and then that would create the change that I wanted to see in my life.

Exactly.

I, I—

what I find interesting, maybe the listeners will too, is the fact that you recognize that you have anxiety, depression, and fibromyalgia, and you found a tool that helped you. So that's the key. You were talking before about people who really own something, and I've spoken to a lot of people who really own Their health condition. They really— it's almost like a badge of honor. They wear it as a badge of honor.

Yeah, it becomes their identity.

It becomes their identity. So it's once you made that transition and you said, no, I'm going to find a tool to help my mindset, to help me move forward with this, did you find that your health changed? Did you find that Maybe your fibromyalgia was impacted positively. Did you find that your depression and anxiety was— it was like hand in hand with your health? So by changing your mindset, changing to go and do something different, letting your subconscious know that I'm more than this, I can do something for myself. Did that have— did you feel that in your body? Did you feel that change in your body?

Yeah, I probably can't speak specifically to the time frame, but I absolutely know somewhere within those 18 months, um, not only by November 2015 was I medication-free post-pharmacy burning—

Congratulations.

But I was also PTSD symptom-free. And what I mean by that is I no longer tick the boxes. So no flashbacks, no nightmares, no, um, you know, um, hypervigilance, um, all the other things that you, you sort of need. There's a lot of categories around it. Um, I no longer tick those boxes. Uh, in terms of my fibromyalgia, uh, like I said earlier, in my own experience, um, my fibro, chronic fatigue, whatever you want to call it, essentially a full-body inflammatory response.

Yes.

For me, that cleared up, that healed In the same timeframe as I healed my mental health. So the—

Interesting.

Yeah. The equivalence that I then created, my truth became that my fibromyalgia was a physical manifestation of my poor mental health state. And so when I addressed that, when I changed how I was thinking, I changed how I was speaking to myself. I changed the feelings I was feeling on a day-to-day basis. I changed the language I was using. I changed how I was speaking to other people. I changed how I was speaking to myself. Through all of that, um, I was in less pain. I stood up taller. Um, I can't remember, I may have lost some weight over that period of time. There was definitely, for me, a very strong Mind, body, spirit.

I was gonna say, you, that's a real testament to the mind, body, the mind, body, spirit, isn't it? How they influence each other. The body can influence the mind and the mind can influence the body. What's happening in the body, you know, like if you have, you know, digestive issues, if you have, um, unfavorable bacteria, you know, all of these can influence our mind, you know, but our mind can definitely switch on and switch off. you know, genes, you know, that are happening in the body, you know. Yeah, more positive result.

Yeah, I think to any— for, like I said, I can only speak on behalf of myself. For me, any, any framework or rule book or, um, philosophy that creates a separation between mind and body Um, is, is missing part of the picture. So I guess that's where coming back to, you know, health and, and the medical model versus, uh, alternative health streams, that was probably part of my issue with the medical model is that the doctors, the, you know, gastroenterologists, all the specialists, the rheumatologists about my inflammation, everyone that I saw It was all very siloed. It was all very independent from everything else. And no one ever asked me any questions about how I was feeling or what I think on a day-to-day basis, or how do I speak to my body? What is my relationship with my body? Which, you know, uh, was then and, you know, could be better now, but was pretty negative, right? So I had a lot of—

Yeah.

hate towards my body, right? I hate my body because it hurts. I hate my body because I can't trust it to do what I want. I can't lift my kid up. I can't, you know. And so there was a lot of negativity towards my body. But to not appreciate that you— that's part of you, and you're just having a good old rough crack at yourself, right? It becomes this self-fulfilling negative negative cycle. Um, so that was part of, I think, that identified for me, you know, I saw this specialist, I saw that specialist, I wasn't getting any better. Um, but to me it made no sense that we weren't looking at me as a whole person in terms of trying to get well. That's the key. And that, that kind of was like, okay, well, I've grown up in, you know, medicine and, and paramedicine. I went to uni and I studied anatomy and physiology and I have a bachelor's and, you know, that's the world I came from. But I, in this healing journey, I recognized that that world couldn't give me the answers I was looking for. It couldn't take me to that next level. Um, it ended at diagnosis, you know, well, this is what you've got. You've got fibromyalgia. Tick. I'm done. I told you what's wrong with you. I was like, well, that's right. How do I get better? How do I, What happens next? Oh, that's it. That's what you've got now. And it was almost like their focus was on diagnosis rather than healing. And so for healing, I had to go elsewhere and look elsewhere for, well, how do I, how do I not have this? I'd really like to not have that. Um, you know, and I used to say to people, I spent 30, 32 years of my life without PTSD. I spent, you know, 2 to 3 years with it, uh, and then I went back to not having it again. You know, like, this is— I didn't— I wasn't born with it. This isn't my natural state. Um, I, I wanted it to be, you know, a blip rather than, oh well, this is who you are now.

And so did your fibromyalgia— was that a, a result of your PTSD? Was that— did that come from that, or did you have that Was that from the stress?

Look, I think it's, it's, it's very muddy for me. You know, it's hard to work out, you know, when, when did that start? Part of the reason I didn't go down the WorkCover process was because I was, um, under a lot of mental strain, and I got presented with a piece of paper from my employer saying, you know, what is the date of injury? Like, when did you start getting sick, that because that system is designed around physical injury, like, oh, I hurt my shoulder, or, you know.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so I was like, do I, do I write my date of employment? Like, when my first, my first, uh, you know, fatal car accident? Like, what do I put as when did this start? I don't know, man. Like, it's been, you know, 10 years. Like, I don't have a date that it began, right? So, um, for me to sort of look back now, um, I was under the impression, as were a lot of people that were helping me, that my PTSD was a result of my ambulance career.

Right. Okay.

Um, and it was in— because it's not unusual, right? It's not unusual for people in, you know, police, fire, ambulance You're witnessing a lot of trauma. It's pretty standard to, to leave with some sort of, uh, you know, mental strain or struggle. Um, so I thought that's what, you know, had, had caused it, so to speak, um, when I was first diagnosed. And it was only in the unpacking of all of this over the next 18 months to 2 years, uh, that I realized that there were other contributing factors. So, you know, I'm a dual rape survivor, uh, I've got intergenerational trauma. All 4 of my grandparents are Holocaust survivors. Uh, you know, there's a lot of stuff leading up to it before I ever put a uniform on, um, that was contributing.

Wow.

So it, it's all, it's all very much in the mix, and, and the physical aspects of that, um, are just in that kind of jumble. So I don't know whether fibromyalgia symptoms started before I was diagnosed with PTSD or, you know, the other way around. I do believe that my physical body, um, manifests what's going on in my, in my head, so to speak. Um, there's definitely a relationship there for me.

Absolutely. And the interesting thing— let's go back to when you were in the hospital, well, when you got a diagnosis from the doctor, and What did you do? Like, you weren't gonna just accept that you had this. You wanna get back to how you were. You want— you didn't want fibromyalgia, you didn't want PTSD. So how did you decide and where did you decide to go? Like, what— that's the thing with a lot of people that I think that they're struggling with, that they get a diagnosis and then they're confused. Like, I don't want this diagnosis, but I haven't got much help. You know, I may have all these different diagnoses from different people, but like you say, they're all siloed. And I've been offered medication, which, you know, I don't advocate that people don't do because a lot of times it's life-saving in the beginning. But is it something that you want to stay on long-term? So what was your path then? How did you go about finding Someone? And did you find someone that helped you?

Uh, yeah, it's a good question. I think I was— I, I remember, like, you know, it was 10 years ago. I think I was looking— had a mentor fallen in front of me, you know, come into my awareness that there was someone who had been on a similar journey, I probably would have latched onto them, you know, like, how did you do it? Show me all the things.

Yeah.

I, um, I don't know that I consciously was looking for that. Um, I guess I was lucky in that I just sort of, um, Rita, I feel like most of my life I've just Fallen forwards and managed to catch myself.

Fallen forward and started running.

Yeah, I just sort of tripped forward and managed to get myself upright, and so far so good. Yeah, so I think there's sort of just a, you know, it all just kind of worked out. In terms of if people are, you know, they've been given a diagnosis that's less than favorable or something that, you know, they're not keen on holding on to, or They can, as we said, they can accept the diagnosis. They want to explore a different prognosis. Um, I guess what's changed in the last 10 years since I did it was that we have a huge, uh, number of things like Facebook groups, and there's just a much larger, um, body of public information around.

Yeah.

Different options. So there's definitely, um, you know, support groups that you can tap into. There's Facebook groups of people that are going through similar things. Um, I would say, um, be, be, you know, put your critical thinking hat on when you are receiving information, um, that's public. So whether it's on Facebook or you've just gone to Dr. Google or, you know, whatever it is, Use your critical thinking hat. Think about where is this information coming from? How are they qualified to speak to this? And, you know, I guess take it all with a grain of salt and filter it through your own assessment of, you know, does this ring true for me? Is this not true for me? And not take anything— it sounds a bit cynical, but not just sort of swallow anything whole, you know, like you just, you want to be inquisitive and curious and, and investigate that.

Was there a particular, um, holistic practitioner or functional practitioner or anyone like that that helped you manage, you know, help you with the pain or to help you resolve? Or was it more just around changing your mindset?

Yeah, I've seen so many different— haven't we all— therapists and specialists and spent thousands and thousands of testing and, um, you know, and collected more diagnoses, you know, Hashimoto's hypothyroid and hyperparathyroid. You know, I've got a big long list of things that I have or I don't have. Um, yeah, I think getting, getting referrals from people is always good. So speaking to, uh, family members or friends Um, and if they can refer you in a direction, if they have spoken to a holistic doctor or a functional medicine doctor or, um, an integrative health specialist or a nutritionist or a naturopath, like, it's always good to, um, you know, get those referrals or those connections through someone that's had their own positive experience.

Um, absolutely.

from that, then, you know, then investigate, then search them, check them.

Yeah.

You know, because your friend or your family member's experience may be the anomaly, right? Maybe there's 9 out of 10 people that hate that person that you're thinking of going and seeing. So again, you know, do, do your research, to use a terrible phrase, but, you know, to be curious, I guess. Um, and I think Just a quick word about Facebook groups. Um, be conscious, I guess, of how the energy of the group affects you. If you are on a mission to heal, if you want to get better, if you want to not adopt the diagnosis as your identity, whatever it is, Um, just be very mindful and deliberate in the online groups that you spend time in. Um, so I'll give you context for that statement, which is, um, when I chose not to be defined by my PTSD, um, essentially I moved from one identity which was ambulance paramedic, ambo. And the next available community for me to jump into was broken ambo, uh, broken ambo, broken cop, right? Which was damaged. You're damaged, you've got PTSD, you can't work, you have to sit on a pension now. And that community, um, of, of the broken ones uh, they— there's people within that that very strongly will fight to keep that identity because it's the next closest to their previous tribe. And I get it, and I understand why. Um, and they were very resistant to my suggestions that you could potentially get out of that and you don't have to be like this anymore. Um, and they were very protective of that. Um, and I used to call some of those um, support groups, um, misery circles, and, um, often referred to it as a race to the bottom. And so there were conversations in there about like who had it worse, and this is what I've seen, and, you know, well, I haven't slept a good night in 15 years, and I've had nightmares, you know.

That's true.

And they compare, you know, their awful experiences as if it was some sort of, you know, competition for who's having the worst life. Um, and I identified reasonably quickly that that was not— they're not my people. Um, that's not my identity. It's not what I want and not what I want to be around and the energy of that. Um, and part of the— one of the challenges of healing was that I had to let them go, right? These were my former colleagues. These are people that I can speak to on a level that I can't usually speak to people, right? We all tell each other weird stories. I'll tell you, I write cops and ambos and fight— we all tell each other really weird stories. We talk about inappropriate things.

Yeah.

Like that's the stuff over dinner. And if you have anyone that's in emergency services or medicine, you know what I'm talking about. Like, we were like, oh, I saw this guy with a ripped up, you know, and just like, it's very normal for us to sort of tell each other war stories and Um, things that in polite company are not okay.

Yes.

And part of me recognizing that I wanted to go a different direction and I didn't want this to be my identity and I wanted to heal, uh, one of the challenges was letting go of that community that wanted to stay in, you know, in their misery, in their, in their identity of brokenness. And, and that can be difficult too. That can be a big hurdle, I think, for people that identify that they, they do want to heal rather than sit in it. Um, and sometimes that makes you feel like you're going out on your own.

Because, yeah, it is scary for people because to give up something, you have to replace it with something else. And, you know, you can't just sit in a void. That's— is that void that they're feeling. So if I have to give up that, that group, that community, that tribe, whatever language that people like to use, and it doesn't sit with me because I need to move forward, well then I'm going to have to replace it with something else. And it's that replacing with something else that I think stumps people from moving forward and finding something else for them and creating a new life and creating better health. You know, it's all those choices that we have to make.

Starting again, like, it can, you know, it's a, it's a big, you know, a lot of the times it feels like an insurmountable, you know, obstacle is that you're like, well, not only do I have to heal, but I can't talk to my sister-in-law anymore because she's, you know, like, and there are people that we, we sometimes have to distance ourselves from because they're not helping. Um, And I think that, that takes a lot of— takes a lot of strength.

Takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage.

Yeah. I think it's good now that— I certainly think that their new tribe, the, you know, the, the group of people that are healing or have healed, or— that's far more accessible than it was 10 years ago.

Yes. Yes, it is. It is. So to wrap up today, Lisa, it's been absolutely amazing speaking to you. I'd just love to ask you a question. I usually end a lot of these sessions with the same question, like, do you have a message of hope for someone, you know, walking in your path, that they can arrive to where you've got to?

Yeah, uh, so, um, I think everyone walks their own path. I think there are sections of our paths that overlap and cross over and intersect. Um, and sometimes you can sort of, uh, you know, see someone up ahead.

Yes.

Well, they do. I'll follow them for a bit. Uh, and then you deviate back onto your own path. Um, just Trust that, you know, I guess be the frog. Keep your eye out for the lily pads that pop up. If it, um, if it feels— trust your gut. You know, one of the things that I had challenge with when I had a lot of body-based health issues was I really had to rebuild that trust in my body and trusting my gut that things were the right way to go or the wrong way to go. So just learn to, to sit with things, and you don't always have to make a rush, a snap decision, you know. Just really check in with yourself, trust yourself, and as long as you keep taking steps, then you'll get where you want to go. Sometimes those steps are backward steps, sometimes they're sideways steps. But this— they're all steps.

They're all steps.

They're all part of it. Yeah.

Fantastic, Lisa. Thank you. It has been such a pleasure. I've loved hearing your journey, and I'm sure everyone else will take some golden nuggets from everything that you've shared today. Thanks so much.

I hope so. Thanks for the opportunity, Rita.

You're welcome. It's been great. I would love to know What was the biggest insight or aha moment you got from this interview so you can now speak up, take action, and make informed decisions for your health? And if you like this episode, get instant access to your free ebook, Alternative Wisdom: Taking Back Control of Your Health, at life-onus.com.