ROB HERSOV & TONY LEON: How the ANC Is Losing South Africa’s Future

Has the DA voice been muzzled by its participation in the GNI?

What percentage of the national vote will the DA get in 2029?

The president instructed the Minister of Defence, who on their version instructed the Defence Force or the Navy, to not proceed with Iran as a full participant in the exercise. You've got more than two-thirds members of the top body of the ANC, some manner lightly or heavily implicated in malfeasance.

What's going on in the DA right now? Before we get into today's story, Truth Report has launched a Backabuddy initiative called Hold the Line for Warras. This is our R1 million drive to support the 3 sons of Warrick Stock, launched with the full support and consent of the Stock family as the official fundraiser. A trust is being set up for Waris's children through Hanukkah attorneys who have volunteered their services. If you're able to donate, thank you. If you can't, that's okay too. Sharing the campaign helps a lot. The link is in the description, or you can screenshot this QR code. Thanks for your support. Let's hold the line together. Now let's get back to today's story. Everyone, I've got a very special guest today, Tony Leon. And if you don't know who Tony Leon is, you're fired. Seriously, Tony Leon is not only a national treasure, but he is someone that if you do put statues up in the future, if that does still happen, there will be a statue to Tony Leon. He has been the longest serving opposition leader in this country since 1994. Before that, having grown up in Durban, he served with the Progs, then the Democratic Party after 1994. And he really is, he'll say co-founder, but I'll say founder of the Democratic Alliance. And from 2000, 1999, 2000 to 2007, he was the leader of the Democratic Alliance, but he served in Parliament. He served in the civic society. He's an author. He's penned many articles. He served as an ambassador to 3 different countries. I think it's Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay. And, uh, every time there's anything happening on the political scene, his phone rings off the hook, even though he doesn't have a formal position with the DA. He's very knowledgeable about what's going on. Tony, welcome to Truth Report.

Thanks very much, Rob. Yeah, pleased to be here.

Yeah, great to have you here. So I'm going to start with a a quote from Jabu's mom. Jabu is a wonderful friend of mine. He's in his 20s. Um, I don't think he's voting ANC anymore. He's a born free. He does, he reads extensively. He's studying business. He's trying new things. He's a capitalist in the making. I love that. And I really love and respect Jabu. His mom is a Gogo. And every time I do a podcast, I say, please send this to your mom and ask her what she thinks. I'm not going to repeat what she normally says about me. But here's a quote, and I'd love you to respond to it. This is Jabu's mum. So far, I don't see a decent alternative to the ANC. At least the ANC brought us a Bill of Rights. We now have dignity and are proud human beings and citizens who can voice out our opinions publicly. The DA doesn't expressly talk against racism. And in my view, there's a high possibility the DA will take us back to apartheid. We are from there and can't go back without our eyes open. Our fear is to experience laws that call us refugees in our own country. That's Jabu's mum, 2 weeks ago. What can we say about it?

The easy answer to that is a lot of it is a result of, you know, all this moral ammunition or immoral ammunition that's been rained down on the DP and then the DA. Really since the dawn of democracy in 1994. You're the white party. It didn't matter how many times when I was leading DA campaigns in elections, I'd spend most of my time not in the white suburbs, but in, you know, rural areas and in townships and so on. And that wasn't done because we got very many votes there, but it was done because we actually want to say we are a party for all the people. Not just for some of the people, but you know, you've got a, you've got a limited reach when the, when the dominant party isn't just in control of parliament, but is in control of the discourse. It's what, you know, Gramsci called the hegemony. They, for a long time, I think that started to lessen. I obviously can't speak to her. And I was very struck and literally I only saw it today and I haven't interrogated the numbers that, uh, the Social Research Foundation put out a poll. On Helen Zille's approval rating as a candidate for mayor of Johannesburg. And in fact, one of those negative remarks, I think, is attributable to something Helen said a few years ago. But is that most ANC supporters, 57%, I think is the figure, think that she would be a good mayor of Johannesburg. Now, if we take the assumption that most ANC supporters aren't white, in fact, are Black, then I suspect using her, and she's perhaps the best-known figure on the DA side contesting mayoralty, that I think that voice that are deprecating it is starting to lessen or to lose its salience as it once had. And, you know, I do see some by-election results which suggest even in major ANC areas, the DA has gone up from a very from a small, original total to a more respectable number, up to 15% in traditional ANC areas. So I think that's starting to change, but, you know, listen, we had 350 years of institutionalized racial discrimination. We had 31 years of a non-racial democracy, at least in theory. You don't reverse 350 years of indoctrination in both directions. In 3 decades. You can start, but look, all the DA can do, or any other party that's contesting that space, is to keep on keeping on and to actually say, I understand your position, even your prejudice against us, but please look at the scoreboard rather than, you know, the memory board, would be my approach.

And I think it's working. I mean, you know, for us on the sidelines, it's working too slowly because, you know, we have to make business investment decisions in this country and we have all these swords, swords of Damocles hanging over our heads like BE, EWC.

Yeah.

And then there's BELA and NHI and God knows what that the ANC's doubling down on. Yeah. However, the Strategic Research Foundation polls, the feeling in the market is that a lot of people are exiting the ANC. And if you believe Prince Mashela and his extraordinary predictions that the ANC will be irrelevant in 2029 and badly damaged in the municipals, whether it's this year or early next. It seems a lot of people are leaving the ANC, but many of them haven't found a new home.

Look, Rob, I think there's some truth in that. And from a tactical point of view, I'm not talking about a desirability point of view, there's a difference. Tactically speaking, if an ANC voter doesn't go and vote and all DA voters go and vote, that's a win for the DA. It's almost as good as getting a vote on your column if the other side doesn't pitch up to vote. And we've seen that where previously the ANC's done poorly in the last general election. I mean, it went down from 57 to 40. The DA total barely moved. Admittedly, there was the MK factor, which was huge, 14.5%. But actually what was also happening is that traditional, a lot of traditional ANC voters, because we had the lowest percentage poll in the history of South Africa, on top of the lowest registration numbers in the history of democratic South Africa. Well, those two figures told you something, that a huge number of people have just opted out of the system. That brings its own dangers, as you know. But the worst news in terms of the electoral result is actually for the ANC itself, because they have been the dominant party up until now, and now they aren't, either because their voters are switching or their voters are staying at home. But the net result of that, if the other side, in this case the DA, can mobilize its own supporters and enthuse them, is that the party will do much better.

So let's talk about the, the DA in the GNU. So I'm a believer that the DA did the right thing joining the GNU. And for the time being, certainly should absolutely stay within the GNU because the alternatives are not, you know, are too terrifying to think about. EFF and MK, or voting on everything using parliament case by case. I don't, I think it's just too hard. So I think the DA should be in the GNU. My worry though is it, it, the DA stood up and fought on the VAT issue. Perfect battle. And a great win for the DA. Congratulations. It was a learning lesson for Enoch Godigwana and all the ANC ministers to realise they've got a big partner in the GNU and they've got to consult. But a lot of people are arguing that the DA hasn't really stood up against EWC, BEE, BELLA, NHI, you know, it picked its fight on VAT, well done, but ought to be picking a lot more fights and standing up against the ANC on a lot more issues. My feeling is we're playing— the DA is playing the long game intelligently. And if the average voter sees the DA as being a sensible, calm, cooperative partner in the GNU, it will earn kudos. And people will say, maybe the DA is quite sensible. Maybe they're quite good in governance, even though they're minority, and maybe they actually are not a crazy throw your toys out of the cot type party that we can vote for. And the first test will be the municipals based on service delivery.

When I led the DA, I was the leader of the official opposition. One of the consequences of entering government is the DA relinquished that position amazingly to the MK, which is now the official opposition parliament, not that they've done much with it. And so the DA is in a completely different zone from when I was in charge and they've got a different set of considerations. Than any I had to deal with. But I was obviously, uh, nearly 2 years ago involved in the negotiations that set up the GNU. And, you know, the viewpoint you've just enunciated here, or put to me, was absolutely the, uh, the, the received wisdom of everyone who contacted me. And I mean, you know, from literally South African billionaires to people I was acquainted with to total strangers just kept filling up my inbox and WhatsApp saying, do a deal with the ANC basically on any terms, which the DA got better terms than no terms, because if you don't, then the wolf will come in from being outside the door. And that of course is the EFF MK. So please just do a deal, however much you have to slick, as they say in Afrikaans. And the DA did a deal. Now, I think, let me say on, on the DA's options as they now are, this is coming up for nearly 2 years, it's been the government. The one option's the nuclear one. They can press the trigger and detonate the Gnu. Now, the problem with that is you can only do it once. They've got the nuclear option, the DA, they can detonate the Gnu, if the NHI, for example, goes ahead, I cannot see—

Do you think that's a red line?

Yeah, look, I'm a bit wary of using red lines. A lot of red lines have been crossed and the ANC just crosses the DA's red lines with impunity. But if the DA was to pull out, that would be dramatic and it would appeal to some voters, but it could also immolate the DA itself. I mean, it could land up people saying, well, you you did all this, now you're not for what, for what. And so you're now, you're now in government and you've, you're no longer an effective opposition. The second problem with that, as I see it, is that you then lose any leverage. At least they've got some leverage. Now, you know, I think the DA is having a congress in April. They should look at the GNU, what's working, what isn't working. Recalibrate. I mean, it's not, you know, I said someone who said, oh, going back to your point, someone said to me, a journalist at the time of the agreement, the ANC, oh, there must be a split in the DA between those who wanted a loose arrangement, this confidence supply, and those who wanted to become a full GNU partner. I said, yes, well, it's the Democratic Alliance of South Africa, not the Communist Party of North Korea. So it's not what dear leader says, they must have a proper debate. I think The party as an institution needs to take stock. It's a good time to do it after 2 years and say, this is what we require to make this thing work. And I think there are a lot of areas where the DA could push its advantage without blowing it up. But, you know, I'm not there. I'm not in the WhatsApp group of the DA ministers. And I suspect, but do not know, that it's likely that they look at this all the time. And I do think that Budget's vote and the ANC's U-turn on it was dramatic. But the difference, and you understand company law better than many, is that in the cabinet, for better or worse, the DA is a minority shareholder. And while company law in South Africa protects the rights of minority shareholders, in political law, not very much at all.

Very.

So a lot of the terrain is set by the DA, and what did, by the ANC, should I say, what the DA sort of done, now you might say it's working or it's unworkable, is they note and protest certain things, I think in cabinet, or maybe they don't, and then outside of the government, it launches an opposition. So let's take some of those issues that you mentioned. I mean, foreign policy, they denounced. The Iranian adventurism or the SA Navy adventurism with Iran. They called for a reconsideration, Rosaneta. I don't know how effective that'll be, but more materially—

Does the ANC read?

Well, I don't know. Do they read for meaning? Do they read for meaning? Yes, as we say in educational terms. But on two other issues, which are absolutely crunch, I mean, they are core to what the DA's principle and position is. I don't think that's changed. EWC, uh, and employment equity, the new ratcheting up of the racial laws. The DA hasn't just noted and opposed or grumbled. They've actually engaged in litigation. So there are court cases at the moment on employment equity launched by the DA. There are court cases that the DA has launched on expropriation without compensation. Now, This might appear to be incoherent because on the one hand, you know, you, it's both and not either or, but I think that's how they've gamed it. Now we can't really tell, has, is this going to succeed? But what is interesting, and it is an opinion poll and these are always, um, moments in time, not, uh, predictions of the future. It seems to me that by being in the government, warts and all, all the limitations, that the DA's actual public perception, particularly among people who would like the gogo who you—

Has increased.

Has increased.

Yeah, I agree.

Whereas people would not previously have considered it, you know, touch of the bargepole because it, for all the reasons that she elaborated, you read out at the beginning of our interview, has lessened because basically If you just to cut through, Rob, what it says maybe to people, and we should not use this word since the ANC is so anti-Israel, it's now more kosher to consider the DA because if they are so racist and so bad, why is the ANC sharing power with the DA? That's— people don't ask questions in a linear way, but I suspect subconsciously a lot of folk, and that might explain— It's a positive perception, there's no question. Well, apart from her significant personality, that poll about Helen Zille's approval among ANC supporters might be from people saying, well, if they're good enough to co-govern the country, then they're good enough for us to vote for them.

On service delivery and municipal governance, there's no question, polls and in my mind and in the voters' perception, The DA, and to quote Cyril, the DA does a better job than the ANC. And I think it's going to come through hard and fast in the municipal elections. God willing, Helen will be victorious with 51% in Gauteng, as opposed to 45% and having to cobble together some small parties. And then the DA will do quick wins, you know.

Yes. And one of the consequences is just a prediction, not a certainty. If the DA does very well in the local elections later this year, and the ANC does correspondingly very badly, I think that the DA will be able to leverage that in the government, if it chooses to do so, to get more concessions out the ANC. How? How does that work? Well, I think, you know, Cyril and company can read the tea leaves, and, you know, if the ANC is in an even more deteriorating position than it was 2 years ago, they can say, okay, you know, you want us to help in the government of South Africa. These are our requirements. And you've got to actually now start giving us some concessions because otherwise our position will be unsustainable. That's what they could say. And they look, just look at what happened in Joburg, in Tshwane, and in Port Elizabeth or Nelson Mandela Bay, for example. That could be part of the conversation. I don't know. Interesting. But I certainly think that if the DA has an uprate in the election, it will improve its overall sense of political self-confidence, which is always an intangible, but very necessary when you're in the ring against someone.

Give me an example. So I'm, there's gonna be a parallel with America here, and I have a suspicion you might be a little more pro-Democrat, whereas I'm a lot more pro-Republican.

Yeah, I am a Democrat here and there.

I'm a hardcore Republican. Okay. But anyway, we know that anyway. So, You know, if you look at Minnesota, at the corruption that's taken place, which is feeding the Democratic machine.

Yeah.

There's no doubt about that. And again, in California, which is multiple, you know, $60 billion of fraud feeding Newsom and the Democrats. Um, and if you just apply that sort of municipal fraud to South Africa, Helen takes control of Gauteng and Johannesburg. She has quick wins in water, in service delivery, water, sewage, whatever, potholes, and she uncovers a huge amount of fraud. We all know where it is. It's relatively easy to uncover. Does that massively implicate the ANC at the national level? Or do people, or do you think the average voter is, has PTSD? Mahlangu Commission, Zondo Commission. We all know the ANC are corrupt.

I think the corruption is now so associated in people's minds with the ANC that even if the Archangel Gabriel descended from the heavens and took control of the ANC or any of its municipalities, he would have a great deal of difficulty, angelic though he might be, in offsetting that. Now, one of the challenges—

That's worrying.

If Helen in fact does win Joburg, as I hope she does, is that if you go back to Helen's previous starring role successfully as mayor of Cape Town, I mean, us, long time ago, I was still the leader of the party when we won Cape Town, 2006. The period of the total of ANC control in Cape Town was very slight. I mean, the DA controlled Cape Town till the nets handed over to the ANC with floor crossing until 2002. We won back Cape Town with a coalition just 4 years later. So the amount of time, the length of time that the ANC had to embed corruption in the structures of City of Cape Town and correspondingly get rid of competent and incorruptible officials was much smaller. Now, the ANC, with a few interruptions of non-ANC, but there have really been interruptions of ANC dominance in Joburg. The ANC has been dominant in Joburg since 1995. Municipal election. Here we are in 2026, that's 31 years later. Let's say there was 2 or 3 years of non-ANC control, but the rest of it's ANC. I love the expression, and it's a very sad reflection, something called MIGO, mine eyes glaze over, because there's just so much of it that, you know, no human being, even one as well informed as you, Rob, can actually absorb it all and say, well, I'm going to take this up, because you take this up and then, you know, On the other hand, I think, you know, the disillusionment of voters does start to express itself when people cast their ballots, either directly by voting for another party or by indirectly not voting. And that will come as a cost. And the ANC will find that they keep using these clichés, self-correction, renewal. Well, actually, you can't self-correct and renew until you throw out, you know, most of the party. I remember when I was writing my recent book, Last year, I looked up some figures that were published, I think by the Institute of Race Relations, of the number of members of the ANC National Executive, which is more effective in determining policy than the Cabinet of South Africa, who were not in any manner, shape, form, either directly through legal process or indirectly through sustained media investigations implicated in corruption. And Broadly speaking, don't believe the figures, 70 out of 100, slightly more, were, and 30 out of 100 were not. So, you know, you've got more than two-thirds of the top body of the ANC, some manner, lightly or heavily implicated in malfeasance.

So quo vadis South Africa? You know, are you out of 10? Are you, is there hope over experience? Is there a, a big sword of Damocles about to fall? Do you feel confident? Are there green shoots? Where do you stand right now?

Well, I don't want to be evasive, but you know, I was a big admirer of Steve Mulholland, who died last year, was really a very top journalist in this country, editor, and, uh, you know, man of like you, of very strong opinions. And I remember at Steve's 70th or 75th birthday, and he lived, you know, several years thereafter, he said something. He said, well, ever since I was 5 years old, um, I was told South Africa had 5 years to go until it explodes. Well, I'm 75 and we both still here. So I don't think countries, well, they sometimes do, but a country with the depth of South Africa without using the clichés about the, you know, the market sophistication, the managerial skills and competence. Just collapse overnight. And I don't, in fact, you could argue on some of the metrics, it's not doing too badly. I mean, the rand-dollar, not actually due so much to our efforts, but more to your friend in the White House and his machinations, is not being as strong as it is for many years. There's a lot of, and you can say all this is a default position that's got very little to do with the government. Well, I suspect the political stability brought about by the GNU is at least a factor and some of the technocratic repairs, and that's what they are, help. But effectively, there's now currently a lot of hot money flowing into South Africa on the stock exchange and the bond market. And so it is very much still a going concern. To me, the question is, how I would ask the question, and it's a bit of a counterfactual, would South Africa manage if it were not for its private sector? Because the big differentiation between South Africa and so many other countries, uh, in our neighborhood, which have cheated on the, or have collapsed effectively, is that we have such a strong, such an effective private sector. In fact, the concessions the government has made because of its own failures to the private sector, bringing them in through Operation Vulindlela, are entirely because the one corner, the one section of the society the private economy can deliver. The public sector economy retards delivery, in fact.

Privatisation by default.

Privatisation by default. And that's what is happening. And long may that continue because the more that happens, the less corruption and the more delivery there's going to be. So I, you know, I think that is perhaps the strongest argument. You know, there are other things that would— South Africa, I mean, the one thing that has impressed me, and I made this point the other day, Rob, we do have one or two institutions, public institutions that actually work. And the South African Reserve Bank, in terms of its independence and its sophistication, has been an absolute citadel. And, you know, no president, including Jacob Zuma, has ever tried to do what Donald Trump did last week, in respect of Jay Powell, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, which is basically to bring—

Influence them.

Well, a legal action against him to try and intimidate him. Now, you know, if that happened here, you know, everyone would head for the hills. It's happening in the United States and the consequences are very negative, but very good for our bond market because everyone's fleeing into other jurisdictions. And when South Africa or its bonds becomes a safe haven, then you know that something's changing in the world. Absolutely.

Yes. So you're better than 5 out of 10.

I am. But you know, it doesn't mean that I've, you know, just taken off my critical filters and said, you know, everyone used that wonderful old expression of President Brandt from the Free State, alles soll rechtkommen. But they always forget the second half of what he said. He said, alles soll rechtkommen, As el que en su plicht done, which means everything will come right if everyone does their duty. Now here you can say, well, that's the challenge. You can't just sit back and say it'll all turn out okay. It'll only happen, as the president said in the 19th century, if everyone kind of steps up and does what they mean to do. Now, we have many current examples of not just dysfunction, but chaos, anarchy. Let's just take this much in the public domain, this appalling naval exercise just close to where we are sitting today. Down the road. Down the road in Simon's Town. And apparently on the government's best version, the best version that they offer, the president instructed the minister of defense, who on their version instructed the defense force or the Navy to not proceed with Iran as a full participant in the exercise because of what was happening in Tehran, not because the government doesn't like the Islamic Republic, but that's another matter. Even the South African government had some regard.

So Cyril said, don't do it.

Don't do it.

And they did it anyway.

And they did it anyway. Now, you know, that tells you, you You know, we can argue about the ANC doesn't listen to the DA. Well, maybe they don't, but when the, when the defense force does not listen or take an instruction from the constitutional commander-in-chief, who's the president, then Houston, you've got a problem, or Pretoria, you've got a problem in this case. And the ridiculous thing, it shouldn't take a 7-day, if we ever see the results, board of inquiry. If I were the president, or certainly if you were the president, you would fire the Minister of Defence immediately, and you would cashier the Chief of the Navy and maybe the Chief of the Defence Force and say, you know, I remember, because he's not well remembered as he should be, F.W. de Klerk, whom I knew very well. And, you know, we're not here to discuss him and his legacy, which is contested, but still, you know, we probably wouldn't be here if he hadn't done what he did. But at the height, and I was, you know, a backbench MP, at the height of the transition in South Africa, about 1992, 1993, Third Force activity, generals were countermanding. De Klerk, who really was in a very difficult position of giving up power, but still the head of chief of state and still the head of the defense force, fired 9 generals in the defense force who he said were disobeying his or undermining the government's standpoint.

Extraordinarily principled and brave.

Everyone forgets that de Klerk fired 9 generals at the very moment that the South African Defence Force was needed.

Was that Constance Fillon's—

Magnus Milan, would they go? No, Constance Fillon was already no longer the Defence Force. Magnus Milan had been sidelined. He also done by de Klerk. Magnus Milan was the real hardline securacrate. He was removed by de Klerk before that, as from being Minister of Defence to being Minister of the Environment. Controversial portfolios you've recently seen. So, you know, de Klerk took control. He didn't require a board of inquiry to report after 7 days. And this was at a much more difficult time than South Africa's in today. And that's good. And that's done nothing. Well, he's appointed a board, you know, appointed a French—

Another commission.

No, another commission. Another dialogue. It's pathetic. It's the absence of leadership. And it's not sending a message. I mean, we have to say as well, The same chief of the Navy who defied him now this month, 2 months ago, November, went on some trip to Iran.

Correct.

Which is a sponsor of Hamas, Hezbollah, enemy number one of the United States, whom we're trying to propitiate in some way. And he didn't even get a reprimand. He had a conversation with the president and his explanation was accepted. So, you know, when the Navy chief practices his own diplomacy and his own politics, and the civilian chief of the defense force does nothing about it or doesn't take decisive action, then, you know, you, you, you don't have a proper government.

But you know, they've all got files on one another. Well, they've got files on Cyril. They go, Cyril, if you fire me, I'm gonna release these photographs of you with X, Y, Z.

Well, I don't know about that at all, but what I do know is if you are so disabled from being a chief executive, you shouldn't be the chief executive.

Well, let's talk about that. So Cyril goes now, or in 2027 at the elective conference, who replaces him? It seems to be a dearth of leadership in the ANC. Everyone's talking Paul Mashatile, Patrice Motsepe, Fikile Mbalula, and the speaker.

Yes. Well, I—

The lady speaker.

I know all four of them. In different ways. Uh, and yeah, I think Motsepe is a smart guy and he's, uh, very personable. And, but I don't know whether he has any political ambitions or interests. Um, and I do know, and you would know this because you've had, as it were, a foot in both camps, that the transition from business to politics doesn't necessarily always work.

And, uh, it's all downside.

Well, it is. I mean, Cyril, I don't know how much of a businessman Cyril was, and there's an argument about that, but Cyril had an enormous amount of hope and hype around his New Dawn because people thought, well, wow, this guy's been a main board director of MTN, Standard Bank, you know, all the good and the greats in South Africa. So he's got these boardroom smarts and I've never sat on a board with him, so I don't know whether they were there or not. So he'll bring that. Those skills from the boardroom and from business into government. Well, there's been absolutely no sign of that at all. So, you know, Patrice, who's a smart guy and has qualifications, he's an attorney. If he, and, you know, built a, well, I don't know, your, wasn't your family part of divestiture, part of the building of his—

We sold Angloval Mining to Patrice.

Exactly. So it seems to me that, you know, he has a lot of credentials, But how that would translate into the rough and tumble of politics, it's under something else. I simply don't know. The others, you know, less impressive, but let's see. Look, I think you—

Be careful what you wish for is what I'm saying, because, you know, Cyril might be— What's that?

Better than anyone else.

Better than the following crowd.

You know, there's a terrible thing. People look at the— Well, you can't do it now because Springboks are so good. But I remember when I was in my twenties, oh, if only we had the Springbok rugby team of, you know, 1970. This was in, in 1995 or whatever, because they were, you know, so good and this crowd is so mediocre. We can't say that now. It's never had a better Springbok rugby team. But so it's a bit similar to that, but also it's, you know, I can go back to 1994 when I was elected to the first democratic parliament and I look at the depth of talent that the ANC had on its front bench in Parliament in 1994, it was very, very impressive. And even at the constitutional negotiations, I mean, the ANC out-negotiated the National Party in CODESA, and I was there as well as a delegate, not just because they had the wind of history behind their back, because they were a lot smarter in dealing with the constitutional intricacies than the National Party government was. Now, all that's gone. And although a lot of those people have died of that era, but also the inducement to go into politics and public life is so small. And look, this is not just in South Africa. We can go across the world, Rob, and you can see, uh, Paul Johnson said the curse of the 20th century was the rise of the professional politician. In other words, politicians or even ministers, presidents who've done nothing in their lives except politics or trade unionism. And that has now become almost the international default position. And you've got to ask, you've asked the question, you yourself have been in the public arena, who would want to go into politics?

I mean, everyone is pushing me, Rob, when are you going to stand for president? And I go, last thing I want to do.

Come and speak to me, Peck, because I've been in that. But look. I was, you know, very politically involved for many years. And, but I also done things before I went to politics.

Were you a businessman, an attorney?

Well, I was an attorney and I'd lectured in law and constitutional law. So I had some background. I was quite young when I got to Parliament, age 32, but I'd done other things and I at least had some, what Mr. Healey, Dennis Healey, Lord Healey called a hinterland. But now most folk, not across the board, who go into politics or become MPs, have done nothing except politics. And so their point of reference is so narrow. Now, on the ANC, you can ask the question in reverse. You can say, well, we've got a hell of a lot of cabinet ministers, mostly from the ANC side. How many of those cabinet ministers could get a job in a middle-ranking private sector company in, you know—

I would say none.

Well, very few anyway.

You know, I mean, maybe Ramaphosa, Um, you know, of the ANC crowd, Gwede Mantashe called me a few days ago. He was quite upset about the letter I'd written, open letter to him. Dear Madala Mantashe, didn't like that.

I don't know why.

You should resign because you've destroyed South Africa's mining industry. Enough's enough. Look at the facts. And he called me. I mean, I actually sent him the article 15 minutes later. So he probably read it.

Yeah, well, at least he reads.

With meaning.

He reads, no, but he also—

And he calls me.

And he also responds to criticism. That's a good thing.

It is a good thing. And I respect him for it. He called me, he said, Rob, why are you insulting me? I said, when did I insult you? He said, in the letter you wrote. I said, no, I was just putting out the facts. You have destroyed the mining industry.

Yeah.

You know, a million employees down to 400,000. No new mines opening, no licenses.

Can't take advantage of the gold price, which is now at a historic high. Correct.

And I said, you need to resign, retire.

Done, over.

You're a Madala like me. You know, he wasn't happy, but he did call me back, you know, to his credit.

Well, that is to his credit.

He said, Rob, I spent 8 years working at Angloval for your father. I said, with my father. And I was thinking he's blaming me for his lack of education.

Maybe he hadn't understood Spanish, working for Angloval, and he's taken it out on the industry since he's got the ministerial—

Tony, I want to ask you.

Yes.

I believe more builders, more businessmen in politics would be a good thing. And I know you won't like to hear this, but if you look at the Trump administration, Extraordinary people, all from business, all from finance.

Well, Robert Kennedy, I disagree. And Mr. Hegseth, he was chosen more for his TV looks than his—

But Scott Bessant and all the other—

Well, there are obviously, there's some.

David Sachs, South African and others.

Yeah. And well, Musk we can argue about, but the truth is actually in the United States, first of all, cabinet ministers cannot be members of a legislature. So you, you by default have to appoint people. You can pull them out, they have to resign from the Senate or Congress. So there is a tradition of people from business. Yeah.

Which is a good tradition.

Which is a very good tradition. Yeah.

And we need to have that here.

But you see, once again, without being a historical bull, very smart business people can make terrible mistakes. And the standard example, he was regarded as the best and the brightest, was Robert McNamara. Who was the head of Ford Motor Company. He was, or General Motors, one of the motor companies, I think General Motors. And Kennedy thought he was the brightest person. Apparently he was technocratically brilliant and he presided over the disaster of the Vietnam War. And he bears a huge, and he took kind of some degree of personal culpability, but here is a businessman.

Unlimited downside.

Who had all the smarts, all the intellect, all the I mean, the, you know, early use of computers was in the Pentagon when they didn't have computers anywhere. The Pentagon had a huge computer in its basement, and McNamara used that to justify the troop enlargement of the United States in Vietnam, which was disastrous. And they made a— so I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

No, but more businessmen, more builders would be good.

As a general, I completely agree with you.

I want to ask you a final real question. Questions about what's going on in the DA right now. It's the, what I call handbags at dawn, Dion George, John Steenhuisen, because in the scheme of things, in the big picture, the fight that they're having is so tiny and irrelevant. People are diving onto it because they want to see the DA's nose rubbed in the dirt. I get it. But in reality, the ANC have broken our economy. They break so they can steal. The amount of fraud and corruption is in the hundreds of billions, even trillions of rand. And yet John Steenhuisen is being accused of misusing his credit card for an Uber and a Deliveroo. Well, you know, or whatever the accusation is, is this a schism in the DA? Will the phoenix rise outta the ashes with a new leader? What's going on?

So I don't know except what I read, the same tea leaves that you're looking at. And I certainly haven't involved myself in it, nor am I going to. And I'm very wary of, you know, I was the leader for 13 years, so it's sitting and passing comment and judgment on my successes is not my shtick. Having said that, and I really don't want to get into all the—

But who said who?

Well, I also think the personal attacks at Dion George level against John Steenhuisen really are off the piste.

I agree.

Off piste, but more materially, and I'm not saying this about Dion George as a person, I'm just saying as an objective fact.

You just shouldn't do it.

I always treat with caution and circumspection the exit interview of a departing or defecting politician, because they're always going to say something to justify the position that they've taken. That's the first thing. The second, if you leave out, which I really think was a scurrilous ad hominem attack that he made on John, There is one question that he asks, which I think the party should use its congress to answer, and that is, has the DA voice been muzzled by its participation in the GNU? Now, that's a fair question if you ask it stripping out all the personal attack.

That's a key question, yeah.

And if it has been, how can we amplify our voice? If it hasn't been, demonstrate it has been. And frankly, if John stands again as leader or someone else stands, or they, more than one candidate, they need to both ask the question and answer it. That should be what a leadership contest or position, if there's no contest, is about. And, you know, people say, oh, there's a problem. And I say, good. Well, you're having a congress in April. Don't ventilate or wash your dirty laundry in public. Go and have an honest debate, not about, you know, allegations about personal behaviour, but about policy. Because, you know, leadership issues, I've discovered, well, I was involved in many myself, Rob, are not just about personalities, they're also about positioning. And there are 3 positioning issues the DA and any other party has to ask. Number 1, what does the party stand for? Never mind that it's propping up the ANC in government. What is its actual value proposition? What does it stand for? How are we projecting what we stand for? And can people tell the difference between us and our competitors? Those to me are 3 questions that, that go to the heart of leadership. And they're not about person X or person Y. They're about your positioning.

Party and policy.

Party and policy. And what your values are.

3 great questions.

Yeah. So let them answer that at their congress and they'll reposition themselves.

So let me throw two poll-type questions at you. What percentage of the national vote will the DA get in 2029?

It depends. It depends on so many things.

I agree. Give us your flyer.

Well, I don't know. Look, I thought the DA would do a bit better in the last election than it did. It got 21.8%, but actually that 21.8% proved the fundamental ticket into the government for the first time in its 25-year history. So it doesn't just depend on how the DA does, it depends on how the others do, primarily ANC. So it's not just an absolute number, although that's important, it's a relative number to the others. And look, there are a lot of imponderables we don't know. You're a big mate of Gayton McKenzie. He is doing some significant damage to the DA in rural areas in the Western Cape, Northern Cape. And I don't know how that's going to play out and that's going to sustain itself. I don't know what the answer to that is. Um, so there are a lot of issues we don't, we don't know where the MK has crested or it's on a downhill slope. I mean, it's done nothing to justify all those votes it got because it barely performs in parliament, but maybe it has some other—

Well, let me ask you it a different way. Will the DA, regardless of what percentage it gets in 2029, be the largest party in your view? In my view, the answer is yes, with 26, 27%. That's my view.

Well, let me say this, um, and I'm not being overcautious here. The answer is possibly, but even to answer that as a possibility is remarkable because if I was having this conversation with you even 5 years ago, it would have been an absurd question. Now it's a question that it's possible to suggest might have an answer, as you indicated.

And do you think a new party is in the works?

Well, look, I mean, you know, there's, let me, I can only speak from the DA. I mean, I started off life in the Progressive Party, long forgotten.

Progs.

Progs, yes, the young Progs. Yeah. Led by Bobby Godsell in Durban, I have to say, in the 1970s. So I started in a party called Progressives, disappeared. It's went through a whole lot of changes until it became the DA. I mean, the DA today caused me a lot of grief from all the liberals at the time, is a consequence of a merger between the Democratic Party and the New National Party. I mean, that's what it is.

Correct.

And Louis Leite's party stayed only for a while. So we created a unified opposition, and that was the purpose. So it's absolutely conceivable that the DA can become something else. And you know what we used to do, and it wasn't just an excuse line, it was a fact. We used to say, and my colleague and dear friend who died sadly last year, the year before, James Self, who was the executive chairman for many years, said, look, it doesn't matter what our name is, it matters what we're standing for. And if we can change the name and change the party to better get what we stand for and get more people behind it, We must do it. And that's— I'm not attached at all to institutions. I'm attached deeply to the values of those institutions.

So if I was to ask you the 5 or 6 manifesto points of the DA, just to summarize them for the viewers, what does the DA stand for?

Well, I think its fundamental proposition, and sometimes this is a bit blurred and sometimes it's trampled on, is the concept of individual freedom. I think individual freedom is an absolute cornerstone. I think the second proposition is that in most circumstances, the party would believe that the private sector must be used and the state should only be a default, not the first position of any policy or government program. So, and then of course it does believe in a concept that we call very broadly social justice. And that means you do not just say, in a completely libertarian way, devil takes the hindmost, you do concern yourself about the hindmost, but you can only do that, which probably goes to proposition 4, by having maximum rates of economic growth. And you use the proceeds of that growth in order to achieve your other objectives. But this idea that somehow you can redistribute, as the ANC does, without economic growth is economically illiterate. I also think the party, and this is a very broad thing, stands for constitutionalism and the rule of law. Well, it does stand for that, which basically says, and we have your friend Mr. Trump disproving it in this current administration, basically says that the rule of law is more important than the rule of man, and that the presidents do not have, or any other executive, unlimited power. They are contained and constrained by a set of rules and arrangements, and that's called the constitution. So, and that you can adjudicate that in an independent and competent court of law. So, and look, embedded in all that, I mean, I'll probably give you more than 5, is the concept of private property because you can't have a, you can't have a high growth economy, even China, without actually having basic protection of private property. I mean, when China had no protection of private property, It had no growth.

Is there a, are there two DAs, the Cape-based DA and a sort of upcountry DA, or is that a fallacy?

I don't really know. Look, when I became the leader, I was determined to, uh, the party got most of its votes out of Joburg, but most of the power seemed to rest in, in the Cape. And I tried to change that in a number of ways to get it more. What I tried to do was to get the DA's voting delegates. I don't know if it's still the case, assigned to the DA areas that produced the most votes for the party, because I thought the outcomes of that would then say that the party leadership had the confidence of place, not just where the party had members, because it's very easy to become a membership farmer in politics. You know, you go around signing up people, doesn't mean that you're doing anything else except what they used to call binnepolitik, which is not very helpful to the cause. But actually who votes for the party. And still, I mean, I think Cape Town's very important. Jordan's a great mayor, Allan's a great premier, and we actually have power here. So that does tend to distort things, but still most of the party votes still come from Gauteng. So, and I think one of the reasons Helen is now camped out in Joburg is evidence of that fact, that only with a heavy hitter—

Good for Helen.

Can you, I mean, good for her. I mean, she's 7 years older than me and she's doing that. I find just doing an interview with you strenuous in the day's activities.

Well, Let me ask you two different questions. Are you a singer or a dancer?

I'm neither. And I'm not gonna dance or sing.

You gotta have one.

I'll do it at my 70th birthday. That I'll do. Okay.

And then secondly, most important, the Springboks have quite a tough schedule this year. Four games against the All Blacks, three of them here in South Africa where they're coming on a classic old test tour, three test matches, and then they're playing the provincial teams. We've got England at the end of the year and they're on a bit of a winning streak. Do you think South Africa will lose any of our matches this year? And if so, to whom?

Well, I haven't thought about that. I don't think so. We seem, you know, someone said about our Springbok rugby team.

Teams.

Well, but this is the point.

We seem to have two.

That even if we field the second team, in old parlance, they could still beat most of the world. And you know, that, that's an extraordinary accomplishment. And yeah, you know, people say it's a cliché. Let's learn lessons from the Springboks. How did they get to where they are? What were the management? What were the techniques? And that to me, uh, is, you know, uh, the, the only problem with the Springboks' outperformance, and it is really a remarkable performance, and you, as you suggest, is we tend to think, ah, the Springboks have done it again. And then we relax because we feel so, such a sense of national chis, as they used to say. And then we forget, well, actually they doing it because they're so professional, so well trained, so well managed, so skilled that actually you need to bring that into other areas of our life. We're in so many areas, as opposed to their excellence, we've become very mediocre.

Final question. I receive your newsletter. Yes. Which I love.

Well, it's published on News24, but I do see it.

I refuse to subscribe to News24, but I get it privately.

Yes.

And I love it. Um, I was going to ask you, how do other people get it? But if it's published in News24, that sounds good.

So I write a weekly column for News24 and I have to say News24 gets a lot of slack. They've never once censored, edited, or even told— they occasionally ask, would you address this topic? And I'll say, okay. But I have had no level of editorial interference. And the fact is they published me. I mean, there might be many others they've published, and I do not toe the party line.

No, you don't. That's for sure.

Yeah.

Great.

Thanks a lot.