Do All Entrepreneurs End Up Divorced and Lonely?

Do all entrepreneurs end up divorced and lonely?

I'll tell you in 10 years. If my wife's left me and I'm down KFC, licking people's fingers for food, then the answer is yes. Well, look, they say, don't they? Oh, well, billionaires, they can't hold down a relationship. They're in their fifth marriage, all this kind of stuff. Or maybe they'll look back on their lives and go, I had five really good relationships or I was with five hot women. I mean, there's two ways of looking at things. If your measure of a successful relationship is a lifelong happy marriage. Well, I'd argue that most people don't have that, whether they're entrepreneurs or not. I know what it's like to be with an entrepreneur. According to my wife, it's not easy because we're up and down and we're here and there and, you know, we take risks and we thrive on the excitement. And then sometimes things are really hard and we can bring our, you know, baggage back home. And sometimes the person closest to you is the person that, you know, take takes it. But my wife says to me that that's what she always wanted in a relationship, the variety, the excitement. She says that because I've been with my wife 18 years, and if my wife left me today, would that be a failure? No, no, We've had a great 18 years. You know, we've had challenges like every other relationship. But I've been an entrepreneur for 18 years, and I've been with my wife 18 years. And if she left me today. Well, I suppose it depends. I mean, if she. If she left me for my business partner, Mark, that might be hard work. I've actually gone there in my mind, really. I've thought, what if my wife has an affair with me with my business partner? Because they're the two people I'm in the longest partnership with. Been with my business partner 18 years. Been with my wife 18 years. And I don't think they'd do it. The stranger things have happened in life. But, you know, if they were in love and, you know, we were still making loads of money, I think I could get over it. I think I could.

How much? What's the figure?

Well, I'm really rich, so I could. It probably wouldn't be that difficult for me to. Caught in other places. I don't know. Life's short and people try their best and we hurt each other, and that's normal. And I think there's this big fantasy out there that if you're an entrepreneur, then you fail in your personal relationships. Define failure. Here's a failure. Staying with the same person for 30 years and being really unhappy for 25 of them, that is a failure. But I always give a bit of a disclaimer that it takes a certain type of person to be with an entrepreneur. You gotta love variety. You've probably got to be quite stoic. My wife's quite stoic, so I can come back and have a rant about this, that, and the other. Put the world to rights. And she's like, so what you can do about it? She's quite stoic. She's not. She's not riding the roller coaster with me. She's just a person in the booth pressing the button, watching us all go wild and quite enjoying pressing the button. So I think if you get the right type of person, you know, I've definitely noticed that women or men, but usually women in this scenario who are very needy, and that's not. I don't say that's a bad thing, but who are very needy and need to be the most important person in the relationship and need to be put first. They really struggle being with entrepreneurs because an entrepreneur has to put the business first. An entrepreneur has to put the money first because who else is doing it? But then you could also argue it's not very easy going out with someone who's just, oh, yeah, I just go to work and come home and eat dinner with the kids and go to bed and go to work and come home and eat dinner with the kids and go to bed. And then on Saturday, I cut the grass. And I do that for 50 years. For a lot of people, that's a hard person to be with. What do you think? You're in a. How long have you been. 18 years. How long have you been in?

About 18 months.

18 minutes?

Yes.

So you're 18 months in.

Yeah.

Do you think it's hard for her being with you as an entrepreneur?

No, because I'm great. No, at the moment, because it's new and it's long distance. She lives three hours away. She's very busy. So she's a teacher. But then in evenings it's like tutoring. So she has a tutoring business as well. So there's less pressure because we're both doing our own thing most weekdays. And then, you know, I'll have to work some weekends. That's fine. But that kind of, at the moment, keeps that exciting.

Right?

Because it's like. I think it's really easy. Like, I'm I own my own house. It's very easy to be like, oh, you know, you know, come here and we'll do this and, you know, just accelerate things far too quickly.

Yeah, I definitely would say, and this is just a coming from the human me, I'm not pretending to be a relationship guru, but don't rush into the relationship and try and keep that honeymoon period for as long as you can, because when it's gone, it's really hard to get it back. And actually there's this really old couple, been together 65 years, you know, like holding hands, probably only a year away from death. Being interviewed about, you know, how do you stay in a marriage for 65 years? What's the secret? And the lady said, don't spend too much time together because if you spend 24, 7, 365, it's romantic. Not for 65 years. That's never going to happen. So you having a bit of distance and intentionally keeping a bit of distance. I imagine when you go and see your girlfriend, say it's a weekend, you haven't seen her a week, it's quite exciting. You do fun things and then you get the variety. So I, I wouldn't underestimate that.

Yeah, no, I enjoy it now. It's hard to see how that plays out when the relationship develops.

Well, when you split up. Let's do episode two on relationships for entrepreneurs. Actually, I'll get her in. Oh, great.

Yeah, that'll be fun.

He was always on his phone. He never listened to me. Yeah, he was always doing podcasts.

I do get the phone thing a little bit and I'm trying to improve on that. But at the end of the day, that is. That's the business.

That is the business. But also you can get all the work done before you go and see her.

Yeah, I did. We did do that recently. Greece, five days. I thought, I've got all of the important stuff done. You were pretty much the only person that whatsapped me. But I got up a little bit earlier than she did. Yeah. And it was pretty much, yeah, let's just five days phone off, told important clients up, you know, what do you need from me this week, if not but for the week after? Because I'm gone for five days and she appreciated that. That seemed to work. But I don't know about you, but I prefer to do sprints. I would rather work like a dog for three weeks and then do three or four days or five days. Not really doing as much than, you know, just like a little bit each day.

Yeah, I'm probably the opposite. I like to work every day, but then in the day I like a little sprint rest. Sprint rest, Sprint rest. So the second part of your question, I haven't forgotten it because it's really important. You said lonely. There's a saying, it's lonely at the top. That is very true because when you're an entrepreneur, you hire lots of people. You've got your wife or husband, your children, your family, your employees all relying on you and you're dealing with lockdown and legal cases and issues with banks. You knew we had world pay, just take 300 grand of our money. It took us two years to get it back and we're currently going through two legal cases. We had a 20 million pound property development where it looked like maybe the government were going to shut the site down in lockdown. That would have cost us 45 grand just in interest payments to keep that thing going a month. And when everyone's looking at you to solve the problems because you're the owner, founder, entrepreneur, visionary, you're the one that everyone thinks is indestructible, can be really lonely. And probably my best financial year was also my hardest, most lonely year because not many staff, I'd say in the over thousand I've hired, you know, we have 140 at the moment, including our outsourcers. We've had more. Over 18 years of hiring these people. I can remember twice, twice when someone came up to me and said, rob, thanks for, you know, what you do for us. Thanks for the job you've given me, you know, thanks for employing me, thanks for hiring me when it was hard for me. And 999,000 times you have people want to pay rise. It's not fair. I don't have any money and that's human nature. And so it can be thankless. So one of the things I found is you've got to thank yourself and you've got to find peace or connection within yourself. Now I'm terrible at asking for help. Many men are, many successful entrepreneurial men are because they're the problem solvers. So they don't want to ask for help, they just want to solve the problems. And so number one is there's nothing wrong with asking for help, especially with people who are more qualified than you in that area to help, even if it's emotional, even if it's therapy, whatever, number one. And number two is if you are feeling alone or lonely, only you can change that. You've got to go and be with people. And for me, one of the best things is just being with other entrepreneurs, whether it's business or networking or even just going away. I was speaking in Budapest recently and I was spent most of my time there with two or three other entrepreneurs and it was great. So yeah, that loneliness thing can catch anyone. And here's the thing, it can take you off guard because it can be when everything else looks good or everyone around you thinks everything is good and then bang. So you do have to be careful of that.

How do you find the right life partner that can sort of balance that out and bear the weight of that a bit?

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Do you think entrepreneurs should have their partner stay at home?

I mean, I think it's good if you want to raise a family because actually probably the potentially most destructive force potentially is an entrepreneur married to an entrepreneur. Like there aren't many, there's a few. Like if you think now I think Tom and Lisa Bilyeu, is it. Grant and Elena Cardone. There's Jesse, is it? Yeah. And Sarah Blakely.

Yeah.

And then it's, it becomes hard, then there aren't many.

Yeah.

And you know. Yeah. I think, I'm not saying you can't because I think relationships have a mystique about them that you can't predict. But probably for me, if I reflect on what I want, I want well raised children and I don't want to an ego fight every day. So it's probably good to have the opposite of you. You know, we get excited by people who are similar to us but we probably have longevity and you know, the practical dynamic of a family. If you're with someone who's different and stay at home and I think if you can afford it, I think it's a good family dynamic. Because if you're both out there trying to change the world, who's looking after the kids now? Okay, you could carry them, take them around the world with you, but not everyone's got a private jet like Grant and can take his kids around the world and show them that life, most people don't have that.

What are some key traits in your life partner then that you think is important if you're an entrepreneur to look for in another partner?

I think a strong sense of grounding and realism. Now as an entrepreneur we have dreams and visions and we want to change the world and we want to be told we're awesome. But actually in your life partner, if they are able to go, I think that's a bit risky. And everyone in the entrepreneur circles will tell you I've. People don't go. Don't be with anyone who you know, puts a pisses on your fire. Yeah. Someone's got to believe in your Dream and believe in you. Yeah, believe in you. Yes. But tell you if what you're doing is ideas above your station or too risky. So you need a grounding, you know, if you think magnets are positive and negative, a battery positive and negative. So you probably need the opposite energy. To you, I would say.

How do you balance that, though? Because the problem is that you've had loads of success and you've gone, this is a difficult, risky thing, and I fucking did it. And then you do it again and again and again. So is there an element of you, of a very successful entrepreneur, entrepreneur that goes, you don't fucking know what you're talking about. I've done this, this, this and this. So when somebody goes, especially somebody close to you who hasn't necessarily done it, goes, rob, I think. I think you're reaching too high. I don't think that's a good idea. How do you internally listen to go, maybe they're right this time versus they don't know what they're talking about.

Well, if you're with someone and they're not an entrepreneur, when it comes to being an entrepreneur, they don't know what they're talking about. Your challenge as an entrepreneur married to someone like that is not showing them that you think they don't know what they're talking about. Otherwise, I don't feel respected. But, you know, a hot air balloon still needs to be tied down. If it didn't come back down to earth and was tied down, it would just keep floating up until it burned itself out. So probably the ideal is your clarity of vision and mission and ambition, your partner being attracted to someone. My wife says that she believes my ambition is an attractive equality in me. Now there's a Radiohead song which says, ambition makes you look pretty ugly. So if you're with someone who thinks ambition is ugly, you're definitely with the wrong person if you're ambitious. However, I'm with someone who finds ambition attractive, so. That's right. But she will disagree with me if she disagrees with me, but she will support me if I say I'm going to go and do it anyway. I had that fight recently, you know. You know what happened. 1800 people in a. An arena. We raised a quarter of a million for charity. And she was like, I don't want you to do it. I don't want you to do it. And I said, I'm doing it anyway. And then afterwards she was like, that was the worst experience ever. I don't think it was good. I don't want you to do it again. She let me do it and I have to accept that. I can see the upside in it, but overall it was a distraction and I respect her for saying that. And so if I want a divorce, I just need to go and challenge someone to a fight. Job done. Gold is predicted to go up to $3,000 an ounce by bank of America. That's a 50% increase in a very short time. Gold and silver have gone through the roof recently with all this news of an impending recession, depression or crash. I'm also very excited to announce a brand new and long term partnership with Direct Bullion. This is not an ad or an affiliate link, this is a long term partnership. The owner of Direct Bullion has actually been a fan of my show for many years and myself and Nigel Farage have become the ambassadors for Direct Bullion. If you go to robmore.directbullion.com you can get the very best spot or under prices or on silver and gold. You can learn about how to invest in silver and gold from the people who I buy gold from and who mentor me on my silver and gold investing. You can also buy gold and silver in your pension, which is something that a lot of people don't know about. So to save me answering the thousands of questions I get about investing in silver and gold, Simply go to robmore.directbullion.com Right now we have a banking crisis, a potential global recession, billionaires selling all of their assets to be liquid to cash in on the crash, banks going bust and taxes going up. If you'd like to learn how to cash in on the crash and not just survive, but thrive in challenging times, I invite you to join us at the Money Maker Summit Live. The link is robmore Live Money. I'm subsidizing a small number of tickets from my Rob Moore foundation or for a very small upgrade fee, you can get special VIP tickets where you meet me personally. You'll get your book signed, there's VIP dinner with six multimillionaires, there's champagne reception Q&As with three or four panel millionaires, and bonus money mindset sessions as well as the special three days on getting your tax bill down, your income streams up, my eight stages of building wealth, my formula for riches, and much more content at robmore Live Money. The agenda, the details, the dates and the speakers are all at the link.

Robmore Life Money so you mentioned a moment ago about the importance of having that partner there if you want to raise a family so this is an episode all about relationships. Children is one of them. And this is a concern I've seen with a lot of wealthy people is am I going to raise brat children?

So how entitled.

Yeah, yeah, nice way of putting it.

Overly privileged.

How to deal with that?

You've got to give them challenge.

How so?

Make them earn money, don't Molly, coddle them. There's this brilliant video online, maybe David can find it with a dad who just walks over a sort of little small fence and his son Looks like 2 years old, can't get over it. What will every, what will every parent do? Pick up the kid, dunk him over, and he just stands there and watches him and this little two year old struggling and struggling and struggling to get over this very short obstacle. Struggling, struggling, struggling and struggling, struggling. And he just stands there patiently. And in the end the kid gets over it. And it went viral on the Internet. I'm like, that's the dad I want to be. Because I say this with love about my wife, but if she erred on one side, it's support. So she will intervene and she will support because she loves them. But the risk there is that when they fly the nest into the real world where there's stabbings and bullies and haters and thieves, you know, this shit is real. If they've been overly protected, they're not going to be able to deal with that. So I've gone through a journey as a parent and again, I'm just sharing my experience as a parent, not pretending to be a guru, but I've got some decent experience. My kids are 10 and 13. I remember Bartlett, Stephen Barlow on his show talking about parenting, didn't have kids. What are you talking about? How on earth can you talk about having kids when you've not got kids? You can't. Everyone I know is having kids has this ideology of what they believe they want. And then the kid comes and then I remember Dr. John Demartini. So I, he's a friend and mentor and I, I went to see him when he came to London and my wife was pregnant with Bobby, my son. And I said, you know, I can't wait for Bobby to be born. He's going to be one of the world's best golfers and I'm going to teach him everything I know. And he just chuckled at me like Yoda would look at Luke Skywalker. And he just said, he did his little laugh and he went, your children will teach you as much as you teach them. And you know, there's A battle between your values as maybe the father, your wife's values as the mother, but then there's your children who have their own values and you've got this constant dynamic and wrestling. So when I raised Bobby, who started golf, age one, got his first hole in one, age three, played in the World championships under six, age five, youngest competitor, probably about the third best golfer in the world at age five. In his age, obviously not as good as Tiger woods, but was beating adults. He beat me on the pitch and putt when he was 4 and I was a single figure handicapper at golf. And in the end we learned, and I was the last to learn this, that my son, who he is, is naturally introverted, doesn't like, gets overwhelmed around people, is quite analytical, quite nervous, quite inside himself. And so golf competitions brought out didn't bring out the best in him. He would beat everyone practicing and then he would get beaten by people who were nowhere near as good as him in the competition. It would almost be like he's sabotaging it. He would smash his putts way past. And I knew he'd. There was something unconscious going on and he was resisting it and it was probably because I was pushing him. So I don't push my kids anymore. I don't lecture my kids. I show my kids on how I live and how I live is I work hard, I help people, but I challenge people, stand up for what I believe in. Try and be present and connected at the right time, don't bail them out, challenge them to do difficult things. I challenged my son, I said, if you do press ups every day until you're 18, you can have 10 grand. My wife would never do that. She said, oh, maybe you shouldn't do press ups today. Maybe it's not good for his growing body to do press ups today. I'm like, well, if he wants 10 grand when he's 18, which is a lot of money, he needs to do press ups every day. Didn't say how many, just a set of press ups. And it's important for me to bring that flavour now. I think your daughter's different. I don't think women thrive in as much of a challenging situation as men. So show them, don't tell them and challenge them as much as support them. And the greatest thing you can do for them is to put them in situations that give them the best life lessons that they solve themselves.

Like, have you got an example of that?

From a very young age, I would get my children to ask when we'd go out Buying things, just coffee and whatever. I'd give them the money and go and get them to ask for them and buy it. And they would be so nervous and would never want to do it, but I'd encourage them to do it. As soon as my daughter showed an interest in bracelets, I put her in front of 200 people on a stage and got to talk about it and got to sell them. She made 300 and something pounds in something like nine minutes. And she was very nervous about doing that. She did well and she loved it. Yeah, yeah. So if anything is going on at school, I never intervene. I'm not the parent that's going down lecturing the teachers. My son can come to me if he wants advice and I'll give it to him, but he's got to sort that problem out himself. Otherwise when he's 30, he's going to be phoning, Daddy. Yeah, I don't believe in pocket money. Pocket money when you're an adult is called the dole. Pocket money when you're adult is called the welfare system. Do I want to raise a kid who believes that the system should pay them? No, I don't. That is not the kid I want to raise. So I don't believe in pocket money. They don't get pocket money from me. I mean, sometimes my wife might give them money, you know, I like, if I want sex, I just say, okay, sometimes, sometimes you've got this clear vision and mission and your partner's got a different ideal and sometimes you have to make sacrifices. But from me, anything they want from me they can have if they earn.

Do you and your wife have that conversation on how you're going to parent or how you're going to deal with a certain situation?

Yeah, we do our best to. We probably could do that more. You know, she gets herself very busy parenting and I get myself very busy entrepreneuring. So we probably should talk about that more.

Yeah. I could sit like, like I don't have children. I could see that as being a conflict. If, if you want to do this thing, I'll give an example. I have a dog and I can train him to do the certain thing. I don't jump up on the sofa and then when I'm not there, someone go, come here or feed it. Feed at the table. Hate, hate dogs sitting there waiting for food. Yeah. So if I have a guest round, the dog will go to them and not me because other people have given him food. And I again, don't have kids. And I'm not saying your Children are like pets, but I can see that that could cause conflict if you've got a very strong ideal on a certain thing and that's being undermined, or vice versa.

Yeah. So I believe the highest value to my wife is our children, and I think that's probably the right thing for a family dynamic and for evolution of our species and for the continuation of the Moore family name. But my ego and my desire to be loved really doesn't like it because I want to be the most important thing and person to her. So often, I'd say every three, four months, I will be having a disagreement with my son and she will side with him, and that really triggers me. And I've not shot her down in front of my son because I think that's really bad behavior. I always want my children to see that I respect their mum and treat her well because I want my son to treat women well, and I want my daughter to see that. You can be with a man who treats you well, firm and strong and protecting, but treats you well. I think that's really important. So I don't think I've ever had an argument with my wife in front of my kids, but I can feel intense shame, and that can start to manifest in anger inside when she takes his side, when I'm trying to teach him what I believe to be a good life lesson, because I'm putting him through challenge and she wants to support him. And so in those moments, you have to go afterwards and go, this is what I was trying to do. And she'll go, well, this is what I was trying to do. And, yeah, so there can be areas of conflict there. So it's probably wise to have agreements in situations like that, what you do.

Yeah.

But when. What my son has learned from that is if I'm giving him challenge, he can just go to mummy. And so you. I think it's really important you have a consistent narrative, because if you're trying to teach a good lesson and then they just go to the other person, they get what they want, that's a bad lesson.

Yeah, of course. So I was listening to a Modern Wisdom podcast episode with Alex Hormozi the other day, and they were talking about relationships for a section, and Alex had a unique opinion, which was, he is the most loyal to his goals. His highest value is his own goals. You just said, your wife's is the children. And he sat down his wife, Layla, and said, I am most loyal to my goals. Essentially, that will always be the priority. Essentially alluding to I will always pick my goals over you. I would always pick my goals over my father, mother, family. What's your opinion on that?

I think it depends on how he sells it to his wife. So if you're an entrepreneur, a true entrepreneur, that's probably going to be the case and it's probably very good for your partner that that is the case. Because you're always going to win, you're always going to bring in the money, you're always going to be able to look after your partner. Just like I believe it's actually right that my wife's highest priority is the children. But for him to go on a podcast and I didn't hear it, so I don't know how he said it, but I, you know, I see Alex Hormozi and at times he's blunt and he packages it like it's good. But if he sits his wife down and goes, my goal's always more important than you, I'd say you need to come on my speaking and communication course because there's probably a way you can package that that makes your wife feel more important. Because then she go, yeah, well, my kids are more important than you, Alex. I don't know if they've got kids. So I think it's how it should be. But why do you need to go and blurred it out in a very insensitive way. I don't think you need to. A good family dynamic works where, let's just use the man woman stereotype. He builds the empire, she manages the empire and raises the family of. In the empire, that's actually a good fit. So your highest value is building the empire. Her highest value is raising the family within the empire. Really good fit.

Well, you can't really have an empire if it lasts one generation.

No, you can't. And you don't have to have a multi generation empire. You could just have a good family dynamic where he's got a good career and she's raising great kids.

Yeah.

You know, if you look at Jackie Kennedy, she raised amazing children. Amate like the children she raised. So what I think is that's probably a good dynamic for a relationship. But be careful how you say it.

So when you say your wife's.

When.

You say your wife's largest value or highest value is the children, how does she deal with you being such a public figure and quite a disruptive one at that.

She sort of doesn't like it and she's sort of worried about it. And she talked me out of doing Secret Millionaire Dragon's Den and a show called how the Other Half Live and Rich House, Poor House. Although to me I probably wouldn't have done that because it's probably not big enough for my brand. But Secret Millionaire at the time was huge. Dragon's Den at the time was huge. And I got offers on all of those shows. And she's like, you're not doing it. Because she was worried about the consequences, you know, the security, the lack of privacy, theft, stabbing, hating, trolling, etc. So she doesn't like it. And I keep her very private. Don't ever post pictures of her on social media, very rarely of my children, because that's her choice and I respect that. So. But she loves ambition. The great thing about life is it presents you paradoxes in everything. So Alex Hormozy can gob off on podcasts that I'll always put my goals before my wife. So then his wife can withhold sex and put other things higher on the priority than him. If he says things like that, she will shame him at home.

Fact, fact.

When he's broken, she will lift him up at home. When he brings arrogance, she will shame him at home. This is what happens in relationships, you know, the natural law of balance. So I now, because of the position and notoriety that I'm in, am very aware of the potential impact on my family. So I'll put myself out there, but I'll protect them.

How about business partners? So I spend quite a lot of time talking about life partners. But as you mentioned, you've been with your life partner as long as you've been with business partner.

I'm in two marriages and only one of them is with a woman. Yeah, I've been with my business partner 18 years. That's a marriage. It's longer than most marriages. I'm in two marriages.

I think you might be more tangled up with your business partner with all the properties and the businesses. Like legally. Yeah, you're balls deep in mark.

Yeah, yeah, I am.

Yes. So what are some of the traits you look for in not just a business partner, but also how do you manage that relationship so that it continues to flourish every year?

Okay, so we're all different. So I can't say what you should look for in a life partner or a business partner. But knowing what I know about how the world works, I believe you're best seeking someone who's very different to you with skills and tactics and talents, but very similar to you in vision. So if you want to be in a long term relationship, you probably Want to be with someone else who wants to be in a long term relationship. Similar vision. But if you want to be the entrepreneur going out, you know, as an entrepreneur you probably want someone who's ordered, supportive, stoic to offset your energy. But the paradox is it's the opposite of you, so it will challenge you, but it's actually good for you because what you enjoy and what's good for you are often different. Look at food. So it's the same with the business partner. When I met Mark 18 years ago, we tweaked quite quickly that we both had a similar vision. We loved property, we love business and we want to be doing it forever and we want to be really rich and, and really successful and build an empire. But then everything else is different. He's analytical, critical in a critique way, not in a picking holes at you way, but in a critique way. He'll find a problem for every solution and I'll find a solution for every problem. He's brilliant at saving, I'm good at generating. He looks for the worst in everything. I look for the best in everything. I love making money, he loves saving money and he's brilliant legally, contractually. And I'm much better strategy and vision and that's why it works.

So what I'm getting from that is as long as your goals are aligned, your individual attributes should be the opposite.

Yeah, similar vision, maybe similar values. You're never going to have the same and completely opposing tactical abilities and desires in terms of what you want to do. Mark wants to do deals all day. Mark doesn't want to do any social media. Yeah, none at all. Doesn't want to do any content. None at all. If we were both doing content, we'd get in each other's way. And if neither of us were doing deals, well, we're not doing deals and we're butting heads in content. But the challenge of that, the paradox becomes they will pick every scab that you have. For example, I got into business to not be told what to do. And my business partner checks my expenses because I'm very good at spending money, he's very good at saving it. So I've, I've found a new headmaster and essentially a new boss. Like, because if you ask anyone who's the real boss, Rob or Mark, I'm the front of house guy. But they'll be, oh yeah. But Mark checks Rob's expenses and keeps an eye on him, does all the insurances, you know, everything. So in a way I've got myself a new Boss. But the great thing about that is it's accountability because without him I'd. I'd be the helium balloon that's gone fast, but gone. So the problem though is we look for people that are like us because our ego wants people to like us and be like us. But for a long term relationship in business or in life, that's actually usually an accident waiting to happen.

How do you overcome that then? Because it's a natural draw to people that are like us. Is it a case you have to take a step back and go, this person's too similar. Do I need to look elsewhere for somebody who's a bit more, you know, maybe challenging to start with, but actually I know that's good for me in the long run.

Yeah, I think wisdom is knowing the difference between what you think you want and what is good for you.

I said clip that.

So usually the things that you don't like and trigger you and are painful for you are good for you. And usually the people holding you to account, you're pissed off with them in the moment and then happy with them in the long run. Whether it's a personal trainer or a coach or mentor or a critic online. So knowing the difference between what's good for you and, you know, the dopamine, ego desires moving on to the next.

Form of relationship, which is, I'm going to say wider family, so not your immediate. And then friends because you went from 50 grand in debt to a millionaire in a couple of years. And I'm just under four. Just under four? Yeah.

That was a million then late, late 26, I started late 30, so I've.

Got about a year and a bit to rack up 50 grands worth of debt is what you're saying.

Yeah. And then start from there. Yeah, yeah.

So how did you deal with the sudden influx of money with friends and families, you know, dealing with handouts, dealing with people always wanting your time. These relationships must have completely done a 180.

Yeah. So I made friends, friends when I got rich and those same friends. One person really recently asked me for a handout of money, a decent amount of money, and I didn't say yes to that. And then they unfollowed and disowned me and they said that this amount of money is not a lot for you so you should just give it to me. And those things happen fairly frequently. And you know, I get asked for money in that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable from people close to me. But also I have a pretty good money relationship with my Parents and, you know, I help them, but they help themselves. And you know, 25 years of my life, they just kept giving me money. So I'm more than happy to keep giving them money. Yeah, there's lots of people that think they're entitled to my money just because I can afford it.

HMRC being one of them.

Well, yeah. So I'm okay with it all though. Why wouldn't I be? You don't have all the upsides of wealth without the downsides that come with it. I posted today and got a lot of hate. I'll read it to you real quick. You can tell me what you think about it. Great.

Okay.

So a lot of hate. The real reason you can't afford your own home actually isn't just soaring house prices. It isn't just wages nowhere near keeping up with house prices. And it isn't just the soaring cost of living crisis. It's you spending 7 pound a day on Starbucks, which is 12,775 in five years. Is you spending 12 pound a day on lunches out, that's 21,900 in five years. Is you spending 20 pound a week on scratch cards, that's 5,200 in five years. Is you spending 35 pounds a week on alcohol, that's 9,100 pounds in five years. It's your takeaways and Netflix and gym at 100 pounds a week. That's 26,000 pounds in five years. That's 75,975 pounds in five years. Or a full deposit and all the ongoing mortgage payments for your own home for the rest of your life. And I got masses of hate for this. Tell me you're out of touch without telling me you're out of touch. This is so untrue. People can't even afford the things you've listed while working full time. I won't read you all the hateful comments that they're the nice ones. So I've just shown people how to save £75,975 in five years and be able to afford their own home for the rest of their life. And because I didn't blame the government or someone else, I've had a lot of hate. So what? Yeah, so what? I know that what I've shown there is helpful to people. So if I know it's helpful to people, I'm gonna say it. This is bollocks. You have massively gone down in my estimation as someone I thought was a decent human being. Shame on you. So summary, I think I've interrupted you three times there, haven't I?

Are you good?

Summary is, if people ask me to lend the money and I don't want to, I'll say no and it's no problem. If people hate me for being rich, it's their problem, not mine. If people want to criticize me for putting content out there that I think is helpful, then that's on them, not on me.

I think that's a healthy way of looking at it. And at the end of the day you've made a lot of money and you've come back from negative 50 grand. So I think people should probably just look internally and think he probably knows what he's talking about.

Well, most people on this thread, for.

What it's worth, I completely agree with you. Because I spent nothing while saving for my house. 250 pound a month Disposable income and that included my petrol money, had to come out of that as well for 18 months basically. 18 months. And I got a house at 21, might have been just 22.

Well, the thing is, you can't control house prices. Yeah, you can't control interest rates, you can't control what mortgage costs, but you can control what you earn and what you spend and what you save and what you invest. And all these people are like, well now I can't control that because house prices are so high. And then I say, well don't spend on A, B, C, D and E. Don't spend on Netflix and lunches and Starbucks out. And some people are saying, but we all have a right to enjoy the finer things in life. Yeah, we do. But house prices are still really high and inflation is still really high and taxes are still really high. So think I. Ideologically I agree with them all, yeah, ideologically house prices shouldn't be this high compared to wages. Ideologically we should all be able to enjoy a coffee or a Netflix and not have to worry about it. Ideologically we should all be able to own our own home. But we can't because of how the system is designed. So you have to take responsibility to learn how the system works, play it at its own game and win your own game of money. And if that means not having seven quid a day spent on coffee and not having 12 quid a day spent on lunch, that's the choice you have to make if you want to take control of your finances. Now of course there's other ways to save the money, which is make money, make more sales, get more commission. But the problem with that is then all the tax you've got to pay.

It's interesting that if that was a fitness influencer doing the same post, saying, well, if you want abs, it's not because of X, it's because of the 300 calories a day in coffee or the 700 calories in the donut that you had afternoon and blah, blah, blah. Nobody would give them that much shit because it's, you know, have your cake and eat it. Obviously, you can't have this really slim, ripped Jack physique if you keep stuffing your face with shit. Same thing is, yes, you might have to give up some luxuries if you want this thing, if you want the really expensive thing, like you said earlier, you can have anything you want, not everything you want.

Yeah. And unfortunately, this post showed me that a lot of people believe that there's nothing they can do about it. One person even said that my post was disrespectful because people can't help the decade they're born in, I. E. Because they were born in the 1950s, that means they must be broke. Well, imagine if you're born in the 1880s and then your children died in the First World War. That would be a worst decade to be born in. All of us who are alive right now in the world right now with the opportunity right now, we were born in the best decade ever. But this guy basically said that I'm ridiculing people because I'm helping them save £75,975 in five years because they can't help the decade that they were born in. Which is basically saying, I'm a victim to circumstance and people don't want to take personal responsibility. They don't.

The reason I love that is I want people to feel that way because it just means everything's easier, less competition.

Yeah.

I don't. I don't want loads of competitors. I don't want loads of people that are going to try and outwork me.

Yeah, Well, I started replying to some of the comments and in the end I thought, I'll stop now. You know, unfollow me, say shame on me, but you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Anyway, go cry in your Lamborghini. Yeah, thanks, Rob.

Or my Aerial Atom. Or my Porsche 911 Turbo S. Or my Ferrari Testarossa. Or my Aston Martin DBS. Or my Audi RSQ8.

I can see. I wonder why Mark checks your expenses.

And by the way, there's no hate there. There's no hate. Like, I'm just teaching people how to save money as well as make money. Thing is, when you save money, you get it all in your pocket. When you make money, you got to pay all the taxes and you get 40% of it.

Boom.

All right. Did you want to talk about employees?

Yes, I did, actually. Sorry, I missed that one. Well, you have a relationship with 140 employees trained or hired? A thousand. What are some of the biggest key takeaways in your 18 years of how to deal with them, hire them, and fire them?

Well, the first thing is, honestly, I don't believe my staff work for me. I believe my staff work for themselves. Now, I used to say that actually I work for them, they don't work for me. And that is partly true because, you know, I work a lot and, you know, at times I'm quite useful to the business. And if I didn't do that, then it would be harder for you all. So you could actually argue I work for you. But actually, the reality is whether someone's employed or not, they're always working for themselves because they're paying their own mortgage. They want money for their own holidays. So the. The first fundamental belief, which I believe is true, is no one works for me. Everyone works for themselves. I say that to them, and I have to keep saying it because some people think it's rhetoric and marketing and salesmanship, and they don't believe I'm telling it's true. I believe it to be true because if they were working for me, they would work and then they'd give me the money. So they're working for them. Now, the good thing about that belief, which I also believe to be true, is it's more empowering for my staff, for me as their founder leader, to project onto them the belief so I'm not some dictatorial, autocratic boss, which most people don't like. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, if I don't expect more of my employees than they believe of themselves, they will never grow. So this creates challenge in them because some of them want it quite easy because human nature is to find the level of comfort. But I expect more of them and I believe more in them than they believe in themselves. And therefore, I think I'm able to get more out of them than they would get out of themselves on their own. The next thing is I only want to work with either great people or people who desire to be great. So you're either on the way or you're in the way. And I will be patient and forgiving of someone who's trying and showing all the signs of growth and progress but failing or making mistakes.

So, for example, let's say you hired a salesperson. They've missed their target. But if they're staying late trying to get the calls in, they're asking you questions about, you know, how they could be increasing their. Yeah, their conversion.

If they miss their revenue target, just. But they have gone 20 or 30% over their call time target. That's. I see that as a positive. If they just hit their target and they do half their call target, they think it's good, they've hit their financial target. But I'm looking at their call target going, you could have done twice as much. Much that's going to kind of count against them. So number one is I want to see someone who's on the way. Because not every, every winner was once a beginner, every master was once a disaster. And so you don't always find the finished article or I want someone who's already really good. And sometimes people get pissed off with me that I micromanage. You know, you go on LinkedIn and basically, you know, the biggest curse word on LinkedIn is not bollocks, it's micromanaging. And there's all these wanky, fluffy nonsense posts from people who've never really run a proper company saying how micromanaging is really bad. Well, you micromanage a baby until it can walk doesn't fall over, you go, well, my kid ain't gonna walk. Go yourself. This one ain't gonna walk. Let's have another. Rejected. No, you micromanage it. And people need micromanaging. And if people get pissed off with me that I'm micromanaged managing them. If people get pissed off with me that I'm micromanaging them, I'll just say, when you can do the job. Well, I won't micromanage you anymore. Now, okay, you could be more coaching and supporting and challenging than micromanaging. But I don't see micromanaging as a bad thing. I want to get the job done. And if they're really good, they shouldn't need micromanaging.

And I think if you don't and somebody leaves, they'll then say, I wasn't supported, I wasn't trained. You can never win as a founder. The employee, they always seem to moan, right, so they micromanage me or I, I got no support.

Well, no one who's good at their job gets micromanaged. They Actually, don't people talk about micromanagement culture? If you're good at your job and you're getting the results, you will be left alone. And if you keep getting micromanaged while you're really good, that's uncommon. And you could choose to leave if you want, or just say to them, am I not getting the results you want? Oh, yeah, you are. Can you let me crack on and do the job, then? Because that's what I would like. So often people who are being micromanaged are not good at communication and clear boundaries, or they're not doing a very good job.

What's your opinion on personal relationships with employees? I don't necessarily mean shagging them. Yeah, no, you know, don't shit where you eat, but, you know, turning into friendships and that.

I don't know. I used to think it was good when I started, then I realized boundaries were crossed. And then I used to think it's bad. And now maybe I've gone full circle again and think maybe it's good. So when I launched Progressive, I'd go to the gym with my staff. Mark and I would take some of the young lads on nights out and we'd get to know them quite well and, you know, then they would get a bit too familiar and comfortable. And then when we had other staff who weren't as close to us, that would create conflicts. Look at them in with the boss. We're not flavor of the month and they don't like us as much. It's not fair. They go down the gym with them, yada, yada. And so then I became more professional and stood back and then those people left and the environment became a bit more cold and corporate. So I think having a good personal relationship with some of your staff, but having clear boundaries, like, for example, I go to the Christmas party, but I don't stay long, and when I can see everyone getting a bit pissed, I fuck off. Not because I don't trust myself, but because they probably don't want the owner of their company seeing them like that. I'll go and I'll know when to leave. I mean, I don't think you want to shag your pa. Never. Never done it. Don't think that you want to have intimate relationships with very senior people. I think it can be really dangerous. Generally, our staff that get together in the company, generally it ends up bad and they end up both leaving. But it's also human nature. So. Because, you know Callum and Charlotte.

Yeah, progressive baby.

Yeah, we have Progressive babies.

Yeah.

You know that they met through our companies. They're married and super happy and really good together, and that's awesome. I won't say the names of the ones that.

It's a long list.

Yeah, yeah. So it can work. But people don't care what you know till they know that you. You care. So I think as a business leader, if you can show that you care and that can be in the way that you're personal. So, you know, Catherine rmd, she knows a lot of things about. She knows all the children's names of the staff and she, she takes time to care about the things people have got going on in their life. However, if you get close to staff, it can be hard to hire them. However, if you get close to staff, it can be hard to fire them, hard to performance manage them, hard to change their commission structure. What if you've got to manage them out and I've seen that, and then the friendship's gonna suffer.

Do you have any closing thoughts or advice on anything to do with relationships?

As an entrepreneur, I think you've got to be clear on what you're building. So, you know, some people say, oh, well, you know, my company is a family. No company is a family because there's not one marriage and two or three children. A company is not a family. But you can create a culture of inclusion, togetherness, energy. You can have personal. We have personal in our values. So create the culture first. And if you want to be involved and inclusive and, you know, you want people to have a relationship outside of work and you want to work hard and play hard, create them within your culture, values and live by what you think is important and what you'll have is upsides and downsides of that. Because if you're more professional and consistent in your culture that you create, you'll attract very professional people who will be very efficient and they'll efficiently leave at 5pm and they efficiently won't respond to your whatsapps or voicemails until 9am the next day. And they'll efficiently love this new, you know, right to switch off thing that the labor government are bringing in, which will make it illegal for you to message your staff after office hours. That's not a culture I want to create. I want people to be able to earn a lot of money, build a big career, be intrapreneurial. And so therefore, if I message you at seven or eight at night, I feel like I'm entitled to do that because I know the environment I want to create. You know, anyone that works for me learns stuff about business and money and finance they would never learn in a big corporation. You could be in a big corporation for 20 years. You wouldn't learn what you learn working for me for a year. That's what I wanted to create.

Thank you very much. Got a lot from this episode.

Boom. And remember, if you don't risk anything, you risk everything. This episode was brought to you by Disruptive Media, helping bold entrepreneurs stand out through podcasting, video and social content. Visit disruptivemedia.co.uk to learn more. This episode was brought to you by Disruptive Media, helping bold entrepreneurs stand out through podcasting, video and social content. Visit disruptivemedia.co uk to learn more.