How Steve Varsano Conquered the Luxury Aviation Market at 55

Steve, what's the most expensive jet you've ever sold?

Ah, that was a Boeing business jet because it was actually green, meaning that the airplane came in a metal can. That's how you get it from the factory. And the completion on top of that, between the two, the price was about $97 million.

For one jet?

One jet, yeah.

And what was your share in that?

It was pretty good actually. And I closed it on the day I finalized my divorce. So it was even more happy day. That was the highest priced airplane I've ever sold. Wow.

And in your career, how many jets would you say you've sold?

You know, I don't want to say sound obnoxious, but I really don't even count anymore. It's probably close to maybe 500 and it there now it's, you know, we don't really say how many airplanes we sell each year, but you know, it's, we sell on the upper end of the market. So the airplanes are basically broken up into small, midsize, super midsize, large cabin, ultra long range and then VIP airliner, which we're in here. So I don't really deal with the small and mid sized jets. We deal with what they call super mid up. And so we're not really looking at how many airplanes we could sell. It's really, you know, the value and how much we can make out of them. Obviously.

Is the margin better on the bigger planes?

You know, it's funny you say ask that, it sounds like an obvious question. But sometimes you can make as much or more on a $5 million plane as a $50 million airplane. It depends, you know how you, how you have the opportunity. Sometimes somebody just wants to get rid of something quick and you can make a markup on something, but the fact of the matter is it's not like in property, it's not like in yachts. There's no pre established percentage that you get paid to buy or sell an airplane. So it's really what you convince, what you can convince your customer to pay you. And as you probably know, no matter how much it is, it's too much.

Yeah, because I suppose some people would have a perception. Are you just dealing with really rich people and they just throw the money down really easy? But talking off camera, you said that once you've signed the letter of intent, that's like you've just started. Can you talk us through that process?

Absolutely. I mean first of all, these, not just high net worth people, but just, you know, heads of major corporations, you know, their Whole life is negotiating, and part of it's just for sport. Okay, when you say, how much is that airplane? Okay, no matter what price you say, the answer's gonna be, wow, that sounds high. No matter what you say. And so you just get used to it, and you have to just deal with it. But I just think that, you know, some of the deals we work on, the clients we deal with, are super difficult.

The reason being.

The reason being is just because they demand the best, they expect everybody to say yes to anything they ask for.

Because they're powerful people.

Because they're powerful people. And, you know, a lot of these people have thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people working for them. And their direct reports that report to these executives, you know, are known that if you don't get the job done all the time, you're gone. So they expect when they're talking to people like me or any other vendors or people that are trying to do business with them, you better deliver, or they don't deal with you anymore. So you learn how never to say no at the beginning. You know, you always start with, let me see if I can get that done. You know, you just don't never say no. It's not acceptable to most of these people.

And how does that make you feel?

You know what? As old as I am, it keeps me on my toes. And I could be complaining and bitching. I mean, I get really mistreated sometimes by some of these people, but, you know, you just don't take it personally. You know, this is part of the game, and I think it just keeps you sharp. And every time I think I've learned a lesson, somebody else is going to teach me another one. It's a really interesting business to be in because the adrenaline of this business is not really airplanes anymore to me. It's who I meet. I mean, these are the people at the top of the game in every sector in every country of the world. And, you know, and they have the most top people working for them. And these people are all obviously trying to make points with their boss. So they're trying to make you look bad or show you what they know and that you don't know. So you're constantly in this sort of tennis game of back and forth, back and forth, and, you know, it's not who wins, wins. But the fact of the matter is, to me, it's not a game. It's how do I get to the finish line. And sometimes if you have to give in for some of their demands, you do the key is get to that finish line.

So if they negotiate and it's not just for the money, for the sport, is there a sport element for you in it?

Oh, of course. But to tell you the truth, you know, we are exclusively either representing the buyer or the seller. Okay. And I take it personally. I really do take it personally, as if it's my money I'm negotiating with. So I really am fighting for my client much more than I say some of my competitors do. They just want to get the deal done and move on. So we push and push as hard as we can, but we also are realist, and we tell our client, when you know, you're stepping over the boundary here, you're demanding too much, it's not right. And of course, when you have the hat on of one person, you're saying something different than you're saying to the person that you're negotiating with. You're trying to be a realist with your client, but you're obviously trying to fight for their points anyway for the opposite side. So it's really a negotiating game, but it's a high stakes game.

And have you got any good negotiation tips?

Listen, I can tell you don't want.

To give away your stake.

I can tell you one thing for sure. No matter how many times you think a deal is dead, okay. It's not always dead.

Right?

Okay. And you got to keep on going back. You have to figure out. Take your ego out of it. Yeah, that's a big point. Take your ego out of it. Because again, I go back to what I said before. How do I get to the goal post? How do I get to that finish line? And sometimes you gotta just eat it up and suck it up and just let them beat you up. Even if you have to give some of your fee away or, let me do this, let me do, figure out how you get the other side happy without abusing your client. But it's the biggest thing in negotiating is taking your ego out of it.

Right. And is there always a way? Do you have that attitude? There's always a way to get a deal done.

I'd say 90% of the time, there's a way to get a deal done. You know, sometimes people just change their mind. They got another opportunity that came up that was better. They. They over the weekend. I hate weekends because, you know, your customer runs into somebody and they, oh, you know, did you hear about this opportunity? Or do you know about this? And then Monday comes and everything changed. So you got to keep on top of These things and you got to keep the momentum going. If you let the momentum slip, then their interest slips and then you're finished.

So does that mean you're always on the go? You've always got your phone, you're here.

Late, you're always, oh yeah, 24, 7. I mean if my phone rings at 3 in the morning, I pick it up. There's no question about it because we deal in all time zones. So you know, early in the morning I'm on the phone, emails, checking what's happening in Asia, who's talking to us, who needs a response and then you know, the Middle east and then we're open in Europe and during the afternoon the US opens up and blah blah, blah. And you know, until 10 o' clock at night I'm still on my emails, calls, even if I'm out to dinner. I come home, I'm back on finishing emails till 12, 1, 2 in the morning.

And how's that affected your personal life and your relationships?

And she understands.

The last one didn't.

Yeah, well that's okay. I didn't want her to stick around anyway. But no, I got a fantastic partner now. She's amazing and she understands. I mean, okay, sometimes it's inconvenient, I have to get out of the dinner and go make a phone call or an email or sometimes I have to go to a meeting and I can't be at a certain social event and. But the fact of the matter is people always say, how do you have a work home balance? Listen, if you want to be successful in business, there's no balance. I mean you really have to give up some of your home benefits in order to get ahead. If you want a 9 to 5 job and you could just cruise, sure you can have a home life, work balance, but really it's a competitive world out there and I think you really, you need to put that the indicator has to go way to the work side than the home side. And there's just some, you just have to figure out how it works and give it up.

Are you ever able to switch off? Do you do anything outside of work?

We travel a lot, but even when I travel to places I'm always on, I mean I'm traveling to places where a lot of our clients go. They're beautiful places. I'm lucky that that's where most of my clients are going to. And so I'm always meeting people, networking, I'm always on my phone, I'm in my emails, I'm calling my office, I'm on all the time and I don't mind it.

I'm getting the feeling you quite like it.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I like it, but it's just become my way of life. It's my business. And you know, when you have your own business, you just can't shut off. It's just, it doesn't work that well. Of course, if you have a senior executive team that has all those operations in a big company, maybe it's more possible. We're a small little hit team here. It's like a family, 10 people. It's, it's, you know, you don't. Everybody takes a big piece of responsibility here and, and I always want to know what's going on with all the deals. Not only the ones I'm working on, the ones, you know, my team is working on. So I'm always on, always involved, no matter what time zone I'm in.

But I'm really fascinated. How does someone get into the jet business? How did you get into this?

So I was really fortunate because most kids don't really know what they want to do even when they finish uni because it's just so early in their life, they're not exposed to much. I was so lucky. When I was 14 years old, the older brother of a friend of mine was going up for a flying lesson in a little four seater airplane and he said to us, you want to come up for a ride? The two seats in the back are empty. Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm in New Jersey, you know, I mean, I be up in an airplane, it's a dream you wouldn't even think about. So we went out for this ride and I was just mesmerized. There's this little thing, it's like basically sitting in a lawn chair at, you know, 3,000ft. But it was just such a feeling of freedom. And I mean like, wow, you're looking out over the world. This is crazy. I want to be a pilot. This is something was amazing. And in those days, even at 14, I was washing dishes, I was, you know, dishwasher, I was a working as a busboy in a restaurant. And so I was making a little bit of money and then I started saving up and basically every two, three, four weeks I'd have enough money to pay for an hour of flying. And so I started taking flying lessons when I was 14. I soloed when I was 16, which is the legal limit in the U.S. and then I got my license when I was 17. And then I went to university and I got my bachelor's degree in aeronautical studies and that started my love of aviation.

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So when I first got out of university, I was a lobbyist for a trade organization in Washington D.C. that represents the airplane manufacturers. So walking around Capitol Hill, talking to congressmen, senators or their aides of making sure they weren't passing any regulations or laws that would be detrimental to the industry. And it was an incredible job. I mean, for an ego standpoint, you know, you're walking around Congress, you know, I'm 22, 23 years old, but the pay was absolutely ridiculously low. So my roommate at the time in Washington, D.C. owned like the hottest nightclub in D.C. so I worked at night as a doorman in the nightclub. And this guy used to come in all the time and had a Learjet on his pin, on his tie, a tie clip. And I was like, how come you got a Learjet on there? He says, I sell jets. You sell jets? What do you mean you sell jets? Yeah, I buy and sell jets, like used ones. He goes, yeah. I said, wow. And every couple weeks, the guy would come in and show off a commission check. Because in old days you used to get paychecks, right? And, oh, look, I sold this one. I sold this one. And over the course of a few months, finally I said, where the hell do you work, man? I want to come and get a job there. No, we're not hiring anybody, you know. I said, please, get me an interview with your boss. I want to meet the boss. So I finally convinced him to introduce me to this guy. And. And at the time, I put on my best polyester suit I could find. And I went in there, and it was really weird because I walked in the door and everybody's in T shirts and sandals and shorts and a beard. I went back out and looked at the door. I'm like, maybe I'm in the wrong place. And the guy says, what's the matter? I said, I thought you guys sold jets here. Yeah, we do. I said, but. I'm sorry, but dressed like that. Yeah, well, we don't have a meeting of our clients. It's all done on the telephone and telex machines before faxes and stuff. And I said, what do you mean? You sell planes on the telephone? He said, yeah. So I was, like, intrigued. How do you do that? And I started talking with him for about two hours. And I said, you gotta give me a job here. He said, listen, you've never sold anything in your life.

So you'd never had a sales job before?

No. I mean, newspaper deliveries, you know.

Yeah, but you went from newspapers to jets.

Yeah. And I was working as a busboy in a restaurant and a doorman, and I was a lobbyist in the daytime. I said, no, listen, I'm a lobbyist. I'm trying to convince the legislators, you know, that it's part of. It's an intangible sale, but it's a sale. And I said, listen. You've been listening to me for two hours. I sold you, you know. And the guy said, no, I don't know. I said, listen, I'll tell you what. Just let me work here for free, and if I don't sell anything, you don't have to pay me. When I sell something, you could pay me. Guy said, okay, you want to do that? Fine. So he said, I'll hire you. I went to go work for him, and then I got a job as a waiter in a restaurant at night to pay my rent. So I was working in the daytime trying to sell a jet, learning how to do it, and at night I was waiting tables and it was quite humbling. You know, at 3 o' clock I'm trying to sell some guy something for 2, 3, 4 million dollars, which today is like 50 or 80 million dollars. And, and then two hours later this guy's yelling at me because I didn't fill his coffee cup. You know, it was, it was, you know, it kept my reality check because like, okay, you're a big shot trying to sell jets, but you're just selling jets. It's not your jet, you're not buying that jet, you're just a salesman. So it kept me really in touch with reality. And I think that that first step in my career has always sort of kept me grounded because I did start from nothing. And I appreciate, you know, every day, I mean, I knock on wood. I mean, you know, I feel so, so lucky. But you know, nothing was really handed to me. It's all been from work.

And how long ago was that?

That was, I was 23 years old. So that's 45 years ago.

Wow, you've been in the jet business 45 years?

Well, I started then I left the industry because I met a guy who I sold three jets to in a helicopter. And he was a big corporate takeover in Wall street. And it was in the early go go days of the 80s and one day he said, you know, listen, I don't know what I want you to do for me, but come work for me, come work in this business and you could be my right hand guy and stop selling airplanes. Okay, I figured, you know, I've been selling airplanes for a while at that time and okay, I could sell more jets, but this is a different career opportunity and I could learn something new. I can always go back to selling planes. And, and so I decided, okay, I'm going to stop selling planes. And I went to work for him and doing corporate acquisitions and basically what they used to call private equity, they used to call it merchant banking. And so I did that for about 16 years. So I left our business, running parts of that business and then eventually I decided to get back into my industry.

And why did you get back into the jet business?

I think, you know, I had a love of airplanes. I wanted to keep meeting so many different entrepreneurial CEOs of companies. It's something I knew well and it just, it was something that I grew up on and I just, I just felt it was my roots and what I should be doing. And so I, when I went to go back in, into the industry, the whole Demographics of where jets were had changed because really from 1990, when, let's say the wall came down in Germany and the cold war ended, you know, with Russia, and, you know, things changed a lot in the world. So before, 80% of all the jets were in the United States and 19% were in Europe, and it was maybe 1% in every place else that all changed. And all of a sudden, places like Russia and China and Nigeria and India, places that, you know, never even had food on the supermarket shelves, became up and coming emerging frontier markets. And people were, you know, doing international business in oil and gas and agriculture, and they were buying airplanes. So I was like, wow, there's some big opportunity in these international markets. So I figured, how do I get to see them? Because when it was 80% of the jets were in America, you can get on a plane, fly to see somebody, and you can go be back at the end of the day. But, you know, I believe in a lot of this face to face. And it couldn't happen when all these demographics change. So I couldn't really go to Russia and China. It was too expensive to do it. You go there, spend three days for a one hour meeting. It just wasn't feasible. So I just came up with this crazy idea. How do I build a showroom? How do I build something to get my clients to come and see me? And I talked to a few people in the industry about my idea of building a store or shop to sell planes. And basically they all told me, go check into a psychiatric hospital. You've definitely fucking lost it. Which is probably exactly why you did it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, listen, don't ever ask anybody to give you advice on something they've never done. And most people, unfortunately, there's not that.

Many people in this business, is there?

No, there's definitely not many. But most people in general, human nature, unfortunately, don't like to see other people succeed. It's really a sad thing.

I also, I don't know about you, but the people who always say you can't or you shouldn't or, you know, they're a bit negative on you, that actually motivates and inspires me. So I'm very grateful for those kind of people because they give me fuel.

Of course, listen, look at the word that sits on this little purple box under your mic. Disruptors. All right? So if you want to be a disruptor, you're not cruising, you're not working nine to five, you know, you have to come up with an idea that is a disruption that you know, you want to break the mode. You want to. You want to do something different and, you know, in order, you have to have a different mindset. You're not working from nine to five. Yeah, but those people have maybe a better life than you do. They have less stress, they're not losing their hair. Then, you know, they're not going to the good doctor. They're not going to the doctors because of, you know, all these issues. They, you know, they're sitting back, going home, have a glass of wine with a nice dinner with their family, and going to the movies. And you know what? Who's to say that's not the better life?

So I guess you don't then think that anyone can be an entrepreneur, do you?

No, no, no. It's. It's. Can you learn to be an entrepreneur? Okay. I don't think so. I think it's in your DNA and you might not know you have that DNA, and you might. It might erupt out of you, and you don't even know you have it. Okay, but if you don't have it, first of all, being an entrepreneur is really the most loneliest job in the world. It is so tough. People just see some guy waking up in the morning and creating an app, and now he's worth $10 billion. That's just so not reality. That is not reality. But that's what people read about, right? I mean, they think, wow, it's an overnight success. Yeah, but the guy had 2000 sleepless nights before he got that overnight success. And nobody hears about that or wants to know about that. They just like, wow, look at this person. Just made a whole bunch of money. So I just think that being an entrepreneur, you could be a CEO of a multi billion dollar company that came up from the ranks of a stock person and become an executive, and now you're CEO of a company with 100,000 employees. That person doesn't necessarily can't be an entrepreneur. Okay. An entrepreneur is really somebody, I think.

Well, they can leave. They can just resign.

Yeah, of course. An entrepreneur, you can't just. You have a bad day, man.

Can't sack yourself.

You can't sack yourself, and you got to walk over dead bodies, man. You can never, ever give up, no matter how bad the day is. First of all, you can't share it with your partner in business or in life. You can't share it with your employees. You got to have a smile on your face and you have to. Everything's great. You could be going bankrupt. And like, where am I going to get my next dollar or pound from. You can't share it because you need everybody's new enthusiasm to continue. And you got to close the door and you're like, oh my God, how am I going to make it through the next day? It's terrible. It takes such stamina, tough skin. You can't be insulted by people. It's really tough. And you got to keep making calls and getting hung up on and making calls. It's tough.

So why do you still do it?

Because the satisfaction of when you succeed is just amazing. It's amazing.

All this stuff about self worth and self love and all the things you can do and getting therapy and taking part and taking time out, but relating to what you said. Surely the greatest way to feel good about yourself is to do good, to be good, to win some shit. Is that not the best way to have good self worth?

100%, man.

I mean, because you can't lie to yourself, can you? You can pretend, oh, I'm doing great, I'm happy because I was feeling fifth and I'm, you know, getting therapy. Haven't you just gotta win.

Energy doesn't lie, okay? Energy doesn't lie, okay? You can say any lie you want. You people could lie to you, you could lie to them. But energy doesn't lie. And people read energy. I really think, you know, listen, when people go to these counselors, you know, marriage counselors, everyone I've known that ever went to one of these, I had to go to one. I mean, they just make it worse. I mean, they make you say stuff. Oh, you got to get this out on the table. No, you don't, you know, I mean, you're just gonna throw like oil into the fire, you know, I mean, and there's no coming back from. Once you say something, you can't take it back. You know, I really listen. I was brought up, you know, on the streets, single mom, four kids, she worked two jobs in her life. You wanted something done, you gotta go out there and work for it and make the money, go buy something. You know, in the old days, you know, the teachers would slap you over your hands with the rulers and you know, you get punched around in school today, it's like, you know, this whole woke thing is like, you know, you can't say hello the wrong way. You can't say he, she, you can't say, you know, you look pretty today, miss. Because, you know, the sexual harassment, I mean, the world has gotten a little bit changed and you think it's got Soft. Well, it's softer than it was. But, you know, a lot of people think they need these protections in life, and, you know, it's just not the way I was brought up. And it's hard for me to adjust to something like that. They're brought up in that world, so maybe it's correct for them, but I just think it makes life tougher because, you know, you just can't brush off, you know, an insult and just move on. You take it more personal. You say it's not correct, it's not legal, and, you know, maybe that's the way the world is going. And I'm wrong. It's just not what I'm used to. And I'm just. I just was brought up. Brought up with a tougher skin, and you just get on with it. And in business, you just get on with it. And if you lose a deal, okay, you. You got punched in the face, you get up and you go again, and you just. The other thing is, it's hard to rely on other people because, you know, just most of the time, people don't really do what they say they're going to do when they say they're going to do it. And it's, you know, you have to really rely on yourself. I'm not talking about your direct family. You know, you could trust them. They could do things they say, and. But just in life in general and business and socially, you know, people don't take the responsibilities as serious as maybe we used to in the past.

And growing up without a dad, how do you think that affected you?

Well, you know, I didn't feel sorry for myself because I didn't know any better. I mean, a lot of my friends all had dads. But I said before, I mean, I started working, I was seven years old. I was sweeping floors in a beauty salon. Okay. Even as though it was a Friday and Saturday, you know, stuff like that. But I always worked and, you know, from 7, 8, 9, 10, and over to my whole life. So I never really had time to say, oh, man, woe is me. I don't have a dad. My mother was working twice, you know, two jobs all the time. We were just trying to keep busy and take care of ourselves. So it just, you know, I have a different outlook of, you know, feeling sorry for people who had a more cushy upbringing. And I just, you know, I.

You feel sorry for them or.

I don't have maybe the patience because I just think, you know, you really should just get on with it and. Because if you feel sorry for yourself, you're sort of going backwards. And maybe you didn't have a good upbringing or a problematic life. And I know it's easier said than done, but to try to look at the past is always going to make you go backwards or hold you back. I try not even to think of my past. I always, what am I going to do tomorrow? What am I going to do for my business? You know, I try not to look backwards and just. That's my solution to not feeling sorry for my past. Listen, I still. My mother worked two jobs, her life. We were never without food. We always had a place to live, clothes on us, we had cars. I mean, we were not deprived a normal life in the sense of the term, but it was, you know, not an elaborate, luxurious life. But we never. My mother was working all the time. We never really had a family around the house. So what we did, I worked. And I didn't think it was normal, but for me it was normal.

Someone who's grown up without a dad, because a lot of people at the moment are saying that there's a lot of lost young men and that they really need a father figure. That's why they maybe really go for people like Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate, because they can almost be that replacement father figure in some ways. What are your thoughts on that as someone who's experienced it?

You know, that's one thing about social media, you know, interacting with some of these younger kids. We've had a lot of interns here. We're so full of interns. I just, you know, I'm packed up, we can't take any more. And. But I feel, you know, great that we can, you know, do anything to give them guidance or something to look at as a positive thing to go strive for. But they. I can see there's a lot of broken families because marriages, divorce rate is so high. And, you know, there's a problem between, you know, the mother and father and the kid suffers from it, depending on how old they were when that happened. But, you know, again, I try to look at the glass half full and I said, listen, it made me tougher. It made me more ready to face the world by myself and, and go out there and get what I wanted so I could get the negative turned into a positive. And if you feel sorry for yourself, it never will turn into a positive because you're always going to feel sorry for yourself. It's a tough thing to mentally change in your head. But I think also if you get an opportunity Or a job don't think it's below you because something else will come out better from it. And maybe that's the problem today. People in younger generations sometimes think things should be given to them more, and their normal job is too beneath them. And it's great to get into one of these things because you meet other people, you get some experience, and then you find someplace else to take the next step. It's much better than doing nothing.

So back to the jet business. So you're 16 years in private equity. So how did you start your first jet business? Did you sell fund? Did you raise some equity from the contacts you'd built? How did you start your own jet business?

Well, in those years of being in the private equity world, I was saving up money, and then I started just doing a few airplane deals here, like the normal people do from the cell phone and trying to do some deals.

So there's quite low overhead, is there?

Because you could just broke it. Yeah, Working out of my house, my apartment, and trying to do a deal here and there. And then I came up with this idea, and I figured, you know what? You know, I really want to do this. You know, the showroom idea. And then I met Lisa here in London, who's, you know, really, I just got done with my divorce. I met her. It was amazing. And I said, you know what? I'm going to start my business here in London. And. And I had this devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, like, yeah, go do it. And the other one's don't do it. Yeah, do it. Don't do it. You know, And I was so torn. Do I really want to jump into this entrepreneur vat of boiling water? Because I wanted to do it. I was so convinced this idea would work, but it's never been done. And should I do it? Shouldn't I do it? And then one day, I found this location, the one I was at before here, which is just over the road there. Yeah. Just on the side of Hyde Park Corner. And like, this is it. The light bulb just went off, and I said, I'm going for it, man. And once I flipped that switch that I'm going for it, I am not looking back. I just went. Threw myself right in. And if I lose it all, I lose whatever money I saved. I don't care. I'm. You know, I was 55 years old. I'm going for it.

So you started your own business at 55. So all those people that say they're too old, you started it at 55.

Today, it's, you know, with Internet, you could be nine years old, as, you know, my daughter. Okay. And you could be 69 years old. I mean, now it's so much easier if you really want to go get a product. I mean, some people are just finding something on ebay and buying it for £5 and going someplace else and selling it for £6. That's a business. Okay. You know, people are doing on social media, they're promoting this kind of, you know, get followers, whatever. Today, I think it's so much. You don't need an infrastructure, you don't need a building, you don't need employees. You know everything. And with AI man, you get all the help you want asking a question and give you the answer. So there's no excuse today for not starting your own business because you don't have the money.

So you sell some really expensive stuff. Take us through the process of how you sell a jet.

Well, it takes many, many years of building that network because the network is key. You know, you have to get to know people who have these assets, and you have to convince them to give it to you to sell for them or if somebody's looking to buy, to buy from you. So you have to build that reputation that you know what you're talking about. And when you call them, they take your call or somebody else refers you to them. And that relationship is so important because you can call somebody on the phone. As you know, these guys will tell you time and time every couple months for a year or two years. And maybe you have that telephone relationship you build, but it's a special kind of relationship. And sometimes the chemistry works with somebody on the telephone, sometimes it doesn't. The same thing that happens face to face with people, there's an energy that connects or doesn't connect. So once you have one end of that deal, you either control the buyer or control the seller. Then it's more easy to go find the other side. So the key is trying to find the foundation of the deal. If you're selling an airplane, get an airplane listed. You control it. Now you start marketing it and. And you wait for people to come to you to buy that airplane. At the same time, you are doing a guerrilla marketing and calling people who have the airplane model that's maybe one or two levels below, seeing if they're looking to upgrade to your airplane.

And you call that guerrilla marketing.

Guerrilla marketing, starting from the ground up. The easy way is putting an ad in a magazine and waiting for people to call or Something on the web or something like that. But guerrilla marketing is actually making those cold calls. If you're looking at selling this level three jet, start with the level one guys and call them and say, hey, are you looking to change in the next six months or year? And sometimes maybe I'm not, but the guy in the hangar might be looking, or do you know this guy? And if you make enough calls, you'll find that needle in the haystack. If you just stay home and never go to meet anybody, nothing's ever going to happen. But if you go out to enough restaurant, bars, parties, events, shit happens. I mean, you will meet somebody who will know somebody or need you to do something or give you a piece of information that will give you an opportunity somewhere else. You need to be out there. And it's the same thing with sales. You need to be out there, you need to be promoting yourself, you need to be promoting your product. And sometimes you're promoting something else and the answer to a different question comes to you. So we might be working on 10 or 15 deals at one time, and another new opportunity comes just by calling on another deal. And then you have to take that little seed and then grow that to a plant. So it's the people you're dealing with though, really know their stuff from the technical standpoint. And then the principals that you're dealing with are the CEOs of these big corporations. You know, like I said before, they're powerful people and you can't bullshit them. And you have to be sincere in what you're telling them. And they'll feel that, they'll feel that in your voice and they'll know if you're trying to hustle them or if you're really telling them the truth. That's one of the key things to a good deal, is get them to feel that they could trust you.

So some people have walked past here on Park Lane and come in and ended up buying a jet. Has anyone bought a jet or inquired from your new social media explosion?

Yes, we've actually sold a few jets.

Wow.

From social media.

That's where they found out about you first on a Tick Tock or Instagram or something like that.

Yeah.

Did you ever think that would happen?

No. But again, it was a pleasant surprise. And some of it, you know, we did it through people calling us and finding us from it. Some of us trolling through the social media, scrolling.

Not trolling, no, trolling.

Trolling through people who are following, you know, you and then contacting them and seeing you know, Kareem did one right there. Yeah, he went through social media and found a guy who was posting on his airplane and things, and he contacted him and sold him a plane.

Has anyone tried to offer to buy.

A jet for cash off you in the early days? I did have one instance.

Did you sell?

We. I had a guy, it was a turboprop, a twin turboprop airplane. He wanted to lease it for a year. And it was so funny because we were going to see the airplane with this guy, and he was telling me that he was in the lobster business based out of Miami, and he was picking up a lot of lobsters from the Caribbean islands. Did that raise any alarm bells? And one day I says, you know, I don't think that story is going to help, but, you know, listen, if you want to lease the airplane, we can go see the airplane. And maybe if they don't have a credit, maybe you pay, you know, for the payments up front or something like that. So I went with him in this airplane and to go see, this is my early, early days in my 20s. And we went and looked at the airplane. He said, you know, we left and we're flying back. He said, yeah. He goes, he goes, I want to lease the airplane. I'll pay for a full year's lease up front. I said, okay, great. I said, so send me the money. He goes, no, no. And he's flying his airplane, right? He reaches back, literally, and he pulls out a briefcase in the back seat receipt. And he gives it to me. I says, what's this? He goes, that's the lease payments for. What are you talking about? And I opened it up and it was just piles of cash in there. Piles of cash. I'm like, what do you want me to do? You want me to count this? I mean, really. I mean, you're crazy. And he said, no, no, I can't give them this cash. I said, we can't do that. He goes, and put this, bang, wire transfer the money. We got to sign a lease with the company, got to send the money to the. Sorry, I can't do this. You know, Anyway, it's funny. They did the deal, they wired the money. Six months later, they found the airplane crashed in the Colombian forest. The airplane was crashed.

So you've never.

Yeah, I was like 26 years old or something like that.

Has anyone tried to buy a jet from you with cryptocurrency?

Yeah, there's been a couple, but we haven't been successful. But I think it's coming around. That you can get a company who will take the crypto and convert it to cash and pay the seller. So we could facilitate it. Now if we really found that buyer who wanted to do that, obviously there's a percentage that gets charged by the person who's going to change it to dollars.

But what's a day in the life of a private jet seller? You did a great video on this. I saw that.

Yeah. I mean, listen, sometimes they're really exciting and we got a lot of stuff going on and people coming in and there's calls and there's deals going on and you know, you know you're with lawyers, you're with the principals. You never, you know, I look at my phone someday and I'm like, really? I talk to these people. I'm just this, you know, kid from New York and New Jersey. I mean, how do I, you know. So some days are super, super exciting and they're better when you're making progress on deals and sometimes you have to go out to a meeting with somebody but you know, with the showroom, most of the time we got people coming here so we're lucky about that. So I think a typical day is really, I get in here early in the morning and what time? Sometimes it's seven and I start just going through emails and I read some things and try to catch up on stuff and call people whether it's in Asia or Middle east or time zone wise. And the team shows up around 8:30, 9:00 clock and then we start reviewing because sometimes they had things change from last night since they left the office and you know, we update each other on some progress on certain transactions. People, sometimes people will walk in here. Sometimes we'll do a social media, you know, capture. We'll, you know, have a staff meeting of who's working on what transactions. We're trying to move a deal along, whether it's a letter of intent, a purchase agreement coordinating airplanes being inspected or we have to go out to the airport to go see an airplane that comes through London. We're trying to get a mandate from a buyer or seller. It's really, it's a pretty busy day and I'm usually here until I go to dinner, you know, 8:39 o' clock at night.

And you like the variety, do you?

Yeah, of course. I mean it makes, it takes away any boredom in your day. Sometimes I end up day with very, very stressed and sometimes very satisfied, sometimes very happy. I always try to walk out happy even though maybe things weren't going as well, as they should. But you go out at night where? Lisa and I, we go out, we entertain a lot. So it sort of takes my mind off it every night.

So is there anyone you wouldn't sell a private jet to?

Yeah, there's been a few, very small number, but a few people who just wouldn't pass a kyc. A know your client kind of thing. You know, a political kind of person or somebody. Today, obviously you can't do business with anybody who's sanctioned. You can't even talk to them.

Would you be ever like Ferrari? You know, so Ferrari, they'll banish a famous client if they upgrade the exhaust on the car or anything like that. You're not like that.

No, no, no. You're going to spend that much money on an airplane, you can do whatever hell you want to and I can help you do it. Yeah, it's, you know, that's their, that's their asset. No, no, we don't. Everybody likes to have their own little, you know, stamp personalization on an airplane. But the funny thing is always people ask me what's the craziest thing people have done to their airplanes? And it's actually a boring answer. I mean, you know, you look at this airplane here, it's pretty boring. It's a contemporary looking, you know, you're going to sit on this thing for 10 hours looking at these walls. You can't get up and go into another room. Most people don't make it look garish or ugly. Of course, money doesn't buy taste. Sometimes they think they make it look beautiful and it doesn't. But nobody does anything really, really crazy in these airplanes.

No. Okay, next one on the quick fire is what's the weirdest deal you've ever done or the weirdest client engagement you've.

Well, wow, weird. I mean, dealing with different nationalities. I won't say which ones. They just don't think the way we think. I mean, western civilization. And sometimes you're ready to pull your hair out. There's no logic in what they're saying, but to them it's. I don't know if the word is logical, but you know, what they're doing is normal and you can really pull your hair out.

No one's tried to buy one. No money down or some.

Oh, you know, listen, in the old days I used to say, you know, we get some real weirdos who call us. Really, we get weirdos. And some of them, of course, right off the bat, you know, it's a waste of time. Some of Them sounds like a 12 year old and they're trying to pretend they're an adult. I want to buy a jet, you know. But there's sometimes these adults and they will take you to negotiating on a letter of intent. They'll even get you get a lawyer to get engaged. And there's nothing behind it. There's nothing. And it's so funny, I used to say when we were in the earlier days, I think we were had an office next to a psychiatric hospital and they used to give each patient a roll of quarters and say, go out, make some phone calls and pretend you're going to buy a plane. It's just the weirdest thing. And I don't know what they get out of these things.

Do you ever call them out? Do you ever say what you're doing?

Oh yeah, of course. But I mean that's the same thing I say on social media. We have a lot of our platforms that people are copying and changing a letter, you know, and then and copying the videos or things and putting it on, like what benefit are they getting out of it? I don't understand it. But just people, I don't know, they just don't have too much free time on their hands or they're bored. They want to feel good about themselves that they're pretending they're buying a jet even though they will never buy one. I don't know, it's very weird. We've dealt with so many weirdos. Sometimes you have a laugh at it, you know.

Well, how else do you deal with.

It unless you laugh at it, you know. And sometimes, you know, if they're really a weirdo, the guys start listening in and you play them up and see how far they'll go.

Ah, so if it's a quiet day, you might have a bit of fun. Yeah. My friend Carl Hartley, who's got Hartley cars, they obviously get a similar thing, but they have had 15 year olds or 16 year olds phone up and they have bought supercars. Have you ever had someone that surprised you that was really young or you just thought this person's never going to buy and they did.

Well, the thing is, a lot of these younger people have wealthy parents. Right. And so you sort of have to listen to them.

Yeah.

And again, you can ask certain questions. You can, like what? Qualify. I mean, you know, just two plus two has to equal four. Okay. And you just, in a roundabout way, if you start, if they know a lot about airplanes, that's pretty impressive. Okay. You ask them about, you know, who their. What their company is or who their parents are or what, where the money's coming from. You know, they have to come up with the logical answers and the other guys are, you know, checking to see if what they're saying is true.

So they'll be in the background live, just doing the checks.

Yeah, yeah. And. But you know, most of the time we give the people the benefit of the doubt because you want to believe obviously that you're, that people are good natured and mean. Well, you know, you don't want to go through life thinking everybody's just a scammer. That's going to be a miserable life.

But you don't want to get your time wasted either.

Exactly. So sometimes we just don't have as much time available to give to these people.

Yeah.

And so you have to be a little bit more short.

Yeah. What's the secret you've never shared or a story you've never told?

Most stories I've told. Is that a secret I shared I probably will never share.

Unfortunately. That's a good answer. But let me do my job and push you something or at least something you've never shared on a show like this.

I mean, not a secret, but you know, like an event or something where, you know, on an airplane where the pilots, you know, they just, if you're successful in your job sometimes, you know, the pilots that are flying you to show the plane to the customer are going to be fired. Right. So you're not their friend. Right.

Oh, wow, I'd never thought of that.

Yeah, so, so, you know, people who are selling their airplane are either doing two things. They don't have the money and they're getting rid of their plane or they're moving up to another plane, a better plane. Right.

So the pilots flying the plane knowing that they're losing their job. I never thought of that.

Yeah.

So, so how do they act?

Well, they, you know, try to be nice. Sometimes they're blatantly not. But I mean, in my early days I was in a year jet one time and I'm sitting in the back, you know, not thinking about what I just told you, you know, having a drink and they like turn around and look at me and say, hey Steve, have you ever done a roll in one of these planes? Like, oh yeah, sure, sure. That guy literally, whoa. Jet flipped it completely upside down and back around again. You know, it's like I had a drink in my head and I was like, holy shit. Then the guy. You ever see how fast we can go from 41,000ft to 9,000ft. And you know, he pulls the power and just dive bombs the thing down. Your ears are like ready to blow out of your head and you can't hear anything for three days. I mean, there's been a lot of instances in the early days where, you know, there's a leak in the door seal or something because they just didn't fix something. This doesn't happen now today, but these are the early days of the cowboys in this industry.

Right. Final round, the disruptors round. Okay, so first question is, what's the most disruptive thing you've ever done?

Built this showroom.

Can we have a little tour? In a minute? Is that all right?

Yeah, sure, sure.

So maybe we can get that on the visuals. Yeah, I mean, you've put a fuselage in here and that screen is something else out there.

Yeah. The app we have on there to take people through a process of how to, you know, buy the right airplane. You know, a lot of people, they think they know what they want, but they really don't know the gamut of choices.

So you're able to show them.

Yes. And when you get a very successful, strong powered, wealthy executive, you can't tell them you don't know what you're talking about, but you can show them that they don't know what they're talking about. And by doing that process, they start understanding, Wow, I didn't know that. I didn't know this. This is interesting. And they start engaging a different way because they see you're helping them and you're not throwing it in their face like, hahaha, I got you. You're really trying to help them so they realize that and it makes them more open and it makes the process much more simple.

What's the biggest risk you've ever taken?

I could say again, opening the showroom, you know, that late in life and, you know, putting everything all on red or black.

You went all in, did you?

Yeah, I could have went bankrupt with. Really? Didn't succeed. Succeed for sure.

And did your. Were you with your current partner then or were you with your ex at the beginning?

I. I was. Right at the beginning.

Did you tell her you've gone all in?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She knew?

Yeah.

And she backed you?

Yeah, well, she. Yeah, she. I moved here for her.

Right.

You know, so that.

So you had some credit.

I already put all in. I moved here.

Yeah.

And then I started my business here. So, you know, thank goodness, after 15 years, we're still just as happy, if not happier than we started so that worked out well. And so, you know, you gotta take risks in life, man. You know, and if you lose, okay, like I said, you brush yourself off and get up and start again.

Yeah. What's the most disruptive thing anyone's ever said or done to you?

Disruptive? Wow. I don't know. That's a tough one. I mean, we've had a lot of transactions that you've taken all the way through the, you know, romancing and dating and foreplay and ready for the clothes. And it's like, changed my mind. Goodbye. It happens a lot. Not a lot. It's happened a lot. And as tough as your skin is, man, it still, it affects you.

And how long can that process take? Days, weeks?

Sometimes you're working on a transaction for a year or two. Whoa. Sometimes it's a month.

That's still a long time.

Right up to the line. And, I mean, I've had a transaction where we've signed the contract, they put up a deposit, and we're going to go for the inspection. Okay. And he called, this happened just recently, and he called me up and said, hey, you know, I talked to my accountant and, you know, I have a. Have a big tax recapture. I've changed my mind. I don't want to buy it, and I'll walk away from my deposit. I know I have to, but that's life, okay? That's it. Gone. I get zero. The people that were doing the deal with them got the money and, you know, we're out of pocket. We've had times where you get on a closing call, you've done the demonstration, the inspection, the contracts, everything is done. You get on a closing call with the buyer's lawyer, the seller's lawyer and the escrow agent, and the buyer's lawyer gets on the phone and says, thank you all for joining for this closing call, but my clients have decided not to go forward with this transaction. So we know we're going to lose the deposit, but we're ready to do that. So really, there's no more sense to stay on this phone call. Thank you all very much for your time. Goodbye. Clicked.

I'm feeling that now.

I'm telling you, man, it is terrible. I mean, you know, when you're, you know, when you do that kind of deal and you've been working on it for so long, I mean, you're thinking about, what am I doing with that commission? You know, you've already spent it in your head, right? You're, you know, I'm gonna buy this. I'M gonna buy that. I'm gonna put a deposit on this. You know, it's. It's there, right? You could touch it, feel it, and boom. And then you just pull that carpet out from under you and it's. Man, it's like ripping your heart out. Yeah, it's tough.

Ouch.

I feel you there.

What's the best advice you ever remember receiving?

Don't give up. I mean, that's. It's easy to say. It's really easy to say, but just don't take no for an answer. Don't give up. Don't care what people say. Don't do this, don't do that. It's never going to work. Listen to your gut. Listen to what your best feeling is. Maybe it doesn't work out, but your best life lessons come from an experience and not from a dream.

So even if you're right about something now, do you now have the ability to walk away? And even if you're right, fine. And you can just walk away, you're.

Not principled 95% of the time, yes. Right. I won't say 100, but 95% of the time, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's always that, you know, but yeah, yeah.

I remember seeing something Keanu Reeves said. He says, at my stage in life, if someone says two plus two equals five, they're right. And I kind of like that.

Yeah. Again, like I said before, you can make up your. You can have your own opinion, you can't have your own facts. But the fact of the matter is that kind of a thing that has nothing to do with opinion, facts, who's right, who's wrong? It's like, what rabbit hole is this going to take me down? Do I really want to do that? You know, where in my life am I? Yeah, you know what? Just to prove a point.

What's the point?

You know, just take it on the jaw and just move on. And tomorrow you're going to forget about it.

So would you rather have 10 million engaged followers on your wildly viral social media right now or 10 million cash, which is clean?

Give me the cash.

Why the cash? Surely you can make more than 10 million out of 10 million followers.

Well, yeah. How many of those 10 million followers are really gonna make the money for you? And listen, I'm not doing none of that social media stuff to be famous, okay? This is, you know, I did it. Okay, Let me see if it can help the business a little bit. And as a result of doing it, I've seen. I've got such a young, big following of young kids. And that, to me, has given me the gratification to keep doing it, because I see I'm inspiring and motivating young kids not just about the airplane business, the jet business, but, you know, sort of just about work ethic, about, you know, how I started sweeping floors, you know, in a beauty salon or a restaurant or busboy, how you talk to, you know, negotiate, or they see me talking with people, or how you qualify people or, you know, know your subject better than anybody else that this kind of stuff and maybe how to search for something you really love, you know, and try to follow through on it. Those kind of things have gotten me, you know, much, much more internal gratification, knowing that I'm helping these people in some way. And that's more gratifying to me than maybe selling another couple airplanes. So I. I found that part of me that I didn't even know I had.

Yeah. Oh, wow. So, final question. This show is called Disruptors, as you can see. What does the word disruptive mean to you?

Do something to change the game. Doing it a different way, getting a different result, going after a market that didn't exist, doing something out of the box. And usually anybody ask about what they think about your idea, we'll tell you you're crazy, and it won't work. That's usually a good disruptive project to take on.

Amen. This episode was brought to you by Disruptive Media, helping bold entrepreneurs stand out through podcasting, video and social content. Visit disruptivemedia.co.uk to learn more.