How to Build an Empire with Billionaire Hotel Businessman Surinder Arora

As a billionaire, what did you think of the budget?

Well, firstly, never believe what you read in the media, millionaire or billionaire. And secondly, what they don't tell you is what currency. So we won't talk about the. The budget was. Look, you know, as a nation, we have spent a lot of money. It's a bit like you and I, you know, if we spend too much money on our credit cards or on our bank overdraft, then we need to tighten our belts. And I did have a lot of hope. I think a lot of the nation was saying, it's time that we want to change. And that was fine, because the Conservatives, sadly, they really have no one else to blame and they should only be blaming themselves because they were so disjointed, so broken internally, whether that happens at home or in business or in politics. So it's their fault for getting us and getting themselves kicked out. Then I thought, live in hope, maybe we'll get another, you know, the new party coming in. It could be another Blair type new Labor. And then when we saw the budget last week, that was really heartbreaking. Heartbreaking, in a sense, is very easy. You know, during COVID if you remember, it happened very quickly. Rishi Sunak was the chancellor and very quickly came out and said, I'm going to pay all this money, I'm going to do all the different schemes to support businesses and individuals on furlough and everything else. And I remember saying at that time, it's very easy to give others money away. If any of us want to go and stand on the junction by the traffic lights and hand out 50 pound notes, you would be the best person, best mate of the Daily Mail reader. A year later, go and stand on the same junction with a bucket, start collecting the money back. You'd be the worst enemy. So I was saying at that time, literally around May 2020, 80% furlough is far too generous because all those poor people, people have got no jobs. There's, you know, our hotels were locked up, shut down. You know, give people at least 50%, 50, maybe maximum 60, but 50% because they're not going out, they're not traveling, they're not going to go out to the cinema, they're not going to go to the restaurants. So what do they have to do? Either pay their rent or their mortgages or food. So giving up the that much money and spending so much money, and then the amount of wastage and sadly, the money that was spent on either friends or people on equipment and masks and everything else, and Doing each other's favor. That was quite sad because I think as a nation, we spent so much money that really we didn't have to. But coming now, I really thought if we want the economy to grow, we need to look at the actual, the underlying problem. And it's so sad that when I saw the budget, yes, it's going to hurt me, like lots of other businesses, national insurance, minimum wage, but we could live with that. I mean, we employ nearly just under 3,000 staff. And very quickly, as soon as the budget came out, and I said to the team, that's going to cost us three and a half to four million a year. You know, we can live with that. But then when you look at the other, I wouldn't say hidden, but the other stuff, a lot of people have been leaving our great nation to go overseas for tax savings and non doms, well, non doms, really. The benefits were more or less taken away when Philip Hammond was the Chancellor, so there wasn't really any benefits as such. But it became quite bad in a sense that now they've said even from previously, you'd get bpr, the business property relief. So if you had trading assets, you can pass them on. Trading businesses, they can pass on to future generations with no inheritance tax. Now they've moved that to 20% over a million. So the first million is free or free tax free, and after that is 20%. So if you got a business, the net assets are hypothetically a billion. When you depart from this planet, your next and your family will have to find £200 million to pay that inheritance tax. So in my case, it may be they might have to sell 1, 2, 3 hotels just like that. Yeah. So I just think, you know, they haven't really thought it through, in my opinion. It's very easy to just say, oh, here's another 25 billion for the NHS. But they haven't looked at the underlying problem. We were talking about this earlier. You know, there is so much money pumped into the nhs, yet it's run, it's probably run one of the worst businesses in the world, in my opinion, the NHS or civil service or all those things, the amount of money that is wasted, they can throw as much money as they like, but until they get to the underlying problem. Because when you have, these days, you know, if your children or family, friends, they go to top universities and they become doctors, account sorry, not doctors, accountants, lawyers, they'll start at eighty hundred thousand pounds starting salary. If you qualify as a nurse or as a doctor, you're Going to start under 30,000 a year and yet they've got to work for twice as long to get their qualifications and what do they then do? They leave and they go to Australia, they go to Canada, they go to us. So the underlying problem, you know the, I mean my mother in law pray to God she's home this afternoon and she last couple of days was in hospital just for a routine home and I went into the hospital, NHS hospital not far from here and I went in and there's more than 80% empty beds because there's only two people in the ward, they can't get the staff. So I just think sadly, I mean I'm not into politics and I'm not into. But it's just really what they've done is just spend, spend, spend and then punish people like yourself, you know, hearing your great story and your teams, you know, you work hard and you want to build your business and we should be encouraging. I mean I always say I've only been in the UK for 52 years and I love the UK and that's what we decided. While I'm working I'm never going to go and run away and go on sort of tax break and go to Monaco or Jersey or Islaman to save some tax while I'm working I'm going to be here and then I can go to Sunset whether I want to go Dubai, India, hopefully my back home, that's what I want to do but while I'm working and then we'll pay our taxes here but they're just making it so difficult. I just wish we could change two things. If I had a magic one, one would be our welfare system never be inhumane and never not look after others. But let's not make it so easy that people think, you know when you ask those poor people in Greece or Africa or Calais, where do you Want to go? 8, 9 out of 10 will say to you I want to go to London. Why do you want to go to London? Well I get free housing and I get free benefits and I sadly we shouldn't be as easy and I just hope that. And the other thing, success. Not everyone wants to be a millionaire billionaire. My elder brother, his wife was headmistress at state school and when I was starting my business I wanted him to join me and my sister in law said, srinda, you may be ambitious. I want my husband at home on a Friday evening at 5 o', clock, 6 o', clock, I want him at home at the weekends so please stay away from him. So it was a choice and he then came to work with me later in life and he retired about seven, eight years ago. He's 10 years older than I am and I saw him yesterday and he's so happy. Since he retired he works in a charity shop three days a week. He's very happy. So it doesn't mean that everyone has to have money in their pockets or wallet that makes you happy, but we should have a choice. And again I think labour have got it so wrong in my humble view, so badly wrong by putting this vat, luckily my kids are all grown up, but putting this VAT on education fees, it's absolute disgrace. You know I've got one of my chefs in one of our hotels, he's got one child, he was telling me a couple of weeks ago, he works with us and then at weekends and evenings he does his second job to earn some money, which is kind of what I used to do. And his wife has got two jobs because they wanted to send them to do, send their son to a private school. And he was saying after the VAT hike, I don't think we can do it. What's that going to do is put more pressure on state schools. So he said double whammy. Sorry, you can get me going and I'll probably won't stop.

No, please don't be sorry. I think we all agree with you. So I'd like to create the picture of your career. So how many hotels do you own.

In the hotel industry? You normally go by the number of bedrooms, the scale. So I built my first hotel back in 99 on this road about a mile west towards Slough on the right hand side. It's now Hyatt. So we now have 16 hotels and we have our first hotel overseas under construction. So that'll be number 17, that's going to be a Sofitel at Dublin airport.

Wow. So 17 hotels, but they're all quite decent size.

So the total.

So not B&Bs.

Well I started 20 bedroom B& B, so we're going to have just over 7,000 bedrooms.

7,000 bedrooms. How did you start in business?

So when I came from India as a 13 and a half year old, I didn't even know the Alphabet. So I went to school in Acton. Mom and dad were living in Southall, there was four of us, my brother, mom and dad and there was another family lodging with us. So there was eight of us in a three bedroom house and my mom, sadly I lost her 30 years ago. But really everything I Have is with her blessing and down to her hard work because she used to go and work in the factory in the mornings, come home, cook for us and then leave in the evenings again in Beiti. So one day I asked her and I said, mum, where do you go in the evenings and weekends? And she then took me and she was cleaning it in south on Little Lloyds bank branch on the Broadway, she was cleaning that in the evenings and then another office across the road and I was under 14 and I felt so sad for my late mother and I said, let me come and help you. You can finish an hour early. So we used to do that. Then at the age of 15, she got me a job working in Southall Market. I used to work for 1 pound, 50 a day from 8 till 6. And then the guy said, well, can you come at six in the morning and help me set up and I'll increase your wage to two pounds a day, which I thought was great. So we did that for a few years. 18. I left school with no education. I didn't know what to do with my life. And I said to mom and dad, you know, I'm going to be a policeman. Somehow. I like the uniform, I like the power. I also took up refereeing because I used to play hockey and football and I was rubbish at football, so I became a football referee, maybe something to do with power again. And I. Then a family friend took me to Elstree, North London, there's a London school of flying. And he paid for the first lesson and said, you know, normally in the Asian families it's always, well, don't do anything, you know, just be an accountant or a pharmacist or engineer and why do you want to be a policeman? So he paid for the first flying lesson and said, why don't you be a pilot? So I loved my flying lesson, which he'd paid for. And I came home and Mum and Dad said, and what was he like, son? I said, mom, I definitely want to be a pilot and I can't go down the education, the academic route because I've got no qualifications, so I'll have to pay for it myself. And what did my dear old mum say, Son, if that's what you want to do, I'll remortgage my house or I'll sell my house for you. And I thought, I can't do that to my elderly parents. So I went and got a job with British Airways at Heathrow as a junior clerk earning £34 a week. And one day I. It was costing me 21 pounds an hour to learn to fly, and that was with a discount at the British Air Flying Club near High Wycombe. So I could only have one lesson per week, which will take me years to get my license. And one morning we're having our coffee break and one of the girls, Lorraine, she said, oh, I've got two horses. I said, how the hell can you afford two horses on our wages? And she said, well, I actually work as a waitress and it was the Radisson Red. So next day I went off to the Radisson Red and I said, oh, have you got any jobs? And the guy looked at me and he said, have you got any experience? And I said, being a young Punjabi boy, I don't even drink. So he said, no thank you, go away. I then saw what is now the Renaissance, which was called the Penta Hotel. And I went in there and Eamonn Kurt and the banqueting manager basically had all his family working there. Irish guy from Limerick, west of Ireland. No worries, come in and we'll teach you and we'll pay you £20 a night. You've got to start work at 6pm and finish one or two in the morning. So I thought, this is great. And he said, start next week, come in, black trousers, white shirt, we'll give you the bow tie and the jacket. So I was quite keen. I finished my work at 5:15 at BA. I was at the hotel at 5:30 and he said, you're too early, go into the canteen, eat something. And I said, what do I do? I don't know what to do. So he took me into the banqueting room, room twice the size of this, all the round tables are set up and he said, see Chris with the long hair, he'll show you what to do. And I went in, he said, what's your name? Srinda. And in those days we can't pronounce your name. I'm going to call you Simon, so you'll be Simple Simon. So he said, you see the two glasses of wine, the small glass and the large glass. When the guests come and sit down, offer them white wine in a small glass. When the waitress is about to serve the main course, offer them red wine. When the girls are taking the dessert orders, go around and take liqueur orders. So bear in mind, I don't drink. I don't know too much about drink. So I did the red and white wine. Thankfully I'm not colorblind, so that was fine. When it came to liqueurs the first one I'd like malt whiskey or brandy. And then I want Tia Maria with cream and I want Cointreau. And I didn't know what the hell they were saying, so I started writing Punjabi on a list. So out of my three tables, 30 guests, I had about 20 orders. I went into dispense bar, I read off my list because there's a queue of waiters. And I looked up and I had suddenly had a big tray with 20 drinks. And I said to the guy behind the dispense bar, I said, martin, what's what? And he said, look at the queue behind you, your problem. So went in, I swear to God this is true. I said to my three tables, please help yourself, it's my first night. And they all started laughing and there was always one awkward customer and he said, like my coffee beans, it was Sam Booker with coffee beans. And I said, no, no sir, your beans are in the drink. And I said three times. And I had to get another waiter. And they were all laughing and taking the mickey out of me. The same table, half an hour later, bring us two bottles of champagne. So I go inside, give my chit, get two bottles of champagne. And I said to the guy, Martin Insight, what do I do with this? He's now got fed up me asking questions. He said, simon, take it inside, shake it a few times. And I swear I went in and I'm doing this. And the other waiter grabbed my arm and said, what the hell are you doing? And I said they told me and the whole table were historical. It was just unbelievable. But I then realized because I didn't get any tips that night that I. So I thought, well, I'm going to actually now make sure I look after my guests in future. It's very easy. I'm just going to go clockwise or anti clockwise. If I start from person A, I'll go around, it's easy, you know, I'll just put the drinks in that order on my tray. So I worked there for a number of years. I got my pilot's license in 78. I then got an offer to fly in those days we had Wimpy Construction, big construction company, their twin props in the Middle east for six months. And I thought, I don't want to give up my job security at British Airways, a full time job, guaranteed salary, and go to the Middle east for six months. So in 82 I got married twice. And twice, I mean, I joined Abbey Life in September. 82. I always talk about getting married to my work and I Got married to my lovely sunita in 10-82. And I remember my mom again used to say, son, in life you can never buy your name or your reputation. So always be a farmer and not hunter. Don't just go for a quick kill, don't miss, sell, don't cheat people, you know, she was an incredible lady. Not educated, but words of wisdom. She was better than Maggie, in my view. Maggie Thatcher. So anyway, I started working and in January, four months after I joined Abbey Life, we went to our first Christmas party and the top table was here. We were shoved right at the back of the room, 120 advisors with their families, wives, and I'm nobody because I've only been there four months and I'm embarrassed with my newlywed wife. And I said, honey, next year we're going to sit on the top table. And sure enough, the following year in 83 out of 120 advisors, nearly 70, 80 of them were full timers and I was part timer because what I'd done by then was I'd change my shifts at Heathrow because it's a 24 hour operation. I'll do early shifts at British Airways, half six till half two, then drive to Isleworth, do my Abbey admin work and I'll normally ring, make my calls, make my appointments and do my admin work. And I used to ring my wife and mum and say I'll be home in 20 minutes and I walk through my door, the dinner's ready and 20 minutes later I'm gone to see clients and I'll never get home before 11pm There was one particular time I actually did my early shift on a Friday. I'll never forget this day. And I had an appointment in Luton and then in Hamel Hampstead. So I went straight. I didn't obviously go home that day, didn't have time. 7:00 clock appointment in Luton, got his cell and then I had a 9 o' clock appointment in Luton, in Hamley Hampstead. On the way, stopped, had fish and chips, went to my 9 o' clock appointment called Winter's night and I knocked on the door and the gentleman said, I'm sorry, I've got another client, the other insurance company from Irish Life. Please can you wait in the car? And every minute is like an hour because I'm thinking the other guy's got the cell. So he called me in about 20 past nine and I didn't leave his home. We got on so well and in those days there was no mobiles. Sunita always used to have my details where I am. So she's ringing me after 1:00 clock at this house and saying, where the hell are you? So I didn't leave there till about quarter past two, I think I got four or five cells and I was so tired, I reversed my car outside his house into lamppost and I didn't even bother getting out, saying, I can afford a new bumper. And I got home again, half a six back at British Airways on Saturday morning, then went to referee my football game. And then I went home and I collapsed and I was really tired, but that was my choice, you know, I used to say to Sunita, you look after my parents and the kids, honey, in between, managed to produce three kids and I'll go out and work and, you know, life's just been kind. So I started doing that, did really well then, like yourself, got into a bit of property and got the taste of real estate. And one day I was just down the bottom of this road, A4, there was a Morley's health club and I was coming from the gym, driving home, and we used to live in Hayes, and I saw these four houses for sale and I took the details. They were coming up in the auction. They were semi derelict, hadn't probably been lived in for 15, 20 years. And I bid for them and I bought them in the auction in 1993 for £161,000. Now, that's £40,000 each. And once we then started doing the building works and the gardens were cleared, I didn't even realize there was a couple of garages which were in the overgrowth in the gardens, that I didn't realize we were getting them. So I then said to Sunita, I said, shall we rent these or shall I sell these? And then. Crazy idea. Well, actually, Heathrow, there's plenty of hotels, but there's no B and Bs. So not every passenger that flies in wants a hotel. So I decided to open up a guest house and one of the other houses adjoining because there were some terrace houses and semis. Paul and Linda, young couple living there, and they had two young kids and Linda wasn't working. And when I explained what I wanted to do and she said, well, I can do your housekeeping for you. I can clean the rooms when the kids are at school. So she became the housekeeper. We set up a booking hotline at home in our kitchen, and my dear wife Sunita will take the bookings and I'll run around and check the guests in. So we started, and I didn't know, I didn't obviously have any expertise, didn't know what to call them, so decided to call them hsa. And some of my friends will say, Surinda, is it a HSA insurance or what does HSA stand? Is it House of Surinda Aurora? And I said to one of them, I said, no, it's actually a hospital for sick animals. And it was actually Heathrow standby accommodation. It was bit too long winded, no one really knew about it. So for the first couple of months hardly anyone will come in. And I said to Sunita, I said, honey, next time there's a delay at Heathrow, I'm going to go in, I'm going to get some leaflets printed and give up because no one knows about us. So I got these A5 leaflets printed bed and breakfast, £25 a night. Sure enough, one Saturday evening there was fog and I rushed off with my box of leaflets into Terminal 1, parked up, went into the terminal and I started dishing out all these poor people sleeping on the floor and the chairs. And within less than five minutes I got a tap on the shoulder and it was a policeman. What the hell are you doing? I said, look at all these poor people. I've got bed and breakfast. Get off. This is owned by Heathrow Airport, you can't do it without their permission. And as I was being escorted out, I saw in the corner ex hotel, hotel booking agency. So I got their telephone number and I rang them on Monday and I said, I have a bed and breakfast at Heathrow, there's no B and Bs. I'm only charging £25. And the first thing, this guy, his name was Mr. Shah, Curti Shah, at this booking agency and he said, what do you charge? And I said 25 pounds. And he said, we take 20% commission. I said, easy, I'll charge 30, you can have your 20% commission. So I'll then walk away with 24 pounds. He thought about it and he rang me back and he said, Mr. Aurora, actually no, we won't use you because I'm selling rooms at the Ibis, which is just down the road at 34.99. Yours, you've explained to me, are bed and breakfast, basically room only, shared bathroom, because you got typical three bedroom house and one bathroom, little kitchen. Why will I send people over to your place? They have a shuttle bus into the hotels and people have to make their own way. So thank you but no thank you. I then went to the Ibis, just nosying around, had a look around and then I rang him back a Couple of days later And I said Mr. Shah, I've got an idea. They're selling £34.99 and they do have the hotel hopper from the airport but you have to pay £1 50. So I've done my little research. They have to pay 1 pound 50 each way as a passenger guest. So if you're a couple you're paying three pounds there, three pounds back. Bear in mind I'm talking about the mid-90s. And I said I'll tell you what we'll do, we'll do £30 but we'll do include breakfast, continental breakfast and we'll do free pickup and drop offs in white BMWs. And the next thing he said done, we'll do that. Well within a matter of hours. We used to be full all the time. And what I didn't breakfast was I used to go into in West Drayton just around the corner and used to get a few loaves of bread, some croissant, apple jam. That was my breakfast. So it really took off. And because I love talking to people, a lot of the crew from British Airways used to come and use our B and B because when the airline puts a crew up in hotels they have a union agreement that they've got to be in minimum four star hotels. But if you're a crew member that live in Newcastle or Liverpool or Leeds and you have an early morning flight then it's down to you to get here and make your own arrangement. So the crew would stay with us and our houses were right opposite the crew center. And then I basically collected the whole site in nine different ownerships and I wrote to British Airways, I hand delivered the letter and I said I own the land opposite your cruise center at the moment. You send them to other hotels and coaches, you can come to me, they can just walk across never expecting to hear and I get a call and saying can you come and give us one hour presentation next Tuesday? Something I wasn't expecting you. Jesus, what the hell do I do? Because I know nothing about hotels. So Saeed who an architect from Hounslow, built my extension at home and I said saeed, you better come with me. And we went. That Tuesday one hour presentation lasted 20 minutes because British Airways realized these two jokers haven't got a clue. And they walked us out. Thank you, we'll come back to you. Never came back. Two and a half months later I bumped into the head of hotels in a restaurant And I said Mr. Clark, you never came back to me. Oh Mr. Ross, sorry, your site's not big enough. It's only 1.6 acres and I need minimum 200 rooms, otherwise it doesn't work for us. We need three or 400 rooms or minimum 200, otherwise we won't use you. So I said, if I get planning and spend my own money, would you deal with me? He said, I'm telling you, you won't get the planning. So cut. Long story short, I don't want to time wise. And it took me nearly 18, 19 months. Against the odds today, the hotel that sits there, The Hyatt, is 350 bedrooms. So when I got the planning, before even building it, I bought these nine different parcels of houses, land, office building. I'd spent 1.6 million, I owed the bank £600,000 and the site now with the planning permission, because this is a bit like the Strip, the Vegas Strip, with all the hotels, it was valued by the Bank's values at 13 and a half million. And Sheraton came along and said, we'll give you 18 million. And I said, no, it's a challenge, I want to build it. And my own bank manager said, I think you're flipping mad, because construction can run over time, over budget, take the money, surrender, lie on the beach. And I said, no, Tom, I'm going to build it. Against the odds. I then went around saying, I'm going to spend about 24 million building it. I can sell some of my other properties, put in another 4 million equity and I can then borrow 20. Well, I managed to build that hotel because I was so determined then. I knew nothing, but I was just breathing down the neck of the builder, the contractors, and I used. This hotel was built at the same time, Lang's Construction, who built it. I wanted to make sure they built my hotel as well, because I didn't want to bring in a smaller firm and end up. So I was determined to prove the bank guys wrong, determined to prove to myself whether I can build it. We opened the hotel three days early and we didn't do the last drawdown because we did it under budget. And the day before opening the hotel, the banks valued the hotel north of 50 million. And that really gave me the platform.

Wow. Wow. Is it true you've also just bought the hotel next door?

Yeah, it was just. Yeah, it was just obviously like a family business. And I think, you know, we've got scale of economies, we've got other hotels here at Heathrow and it just made sense for us to. And my office is right opposite, so I can go there for a coffee.

So I've got a question for you and we'll talk about, you know, I said billionaire and if you google you, it says billionaire. So maybe we.

That's in rupees. Yeah? Yeah.

As a billionaire, what are your most brutal money and business lessons You've had the biggest one.

You know, life is one thing I'll share with all of you. Never expect for life to just be in a straight line. Life is like a wave. A lot of people will say they're winners when you're on top of the hill. In my world, the real winners are down in the valleys because, you know, we'll all, you know, since I started the business, you know, we've had valleys and hills. We had 9 11, then we had 7 7. Then we had the 2008 financial crisis, then we had Covid. So it makes you stronger to, you know, like my dear mum used to say, son, always look step ahead but make sure you look step behind as well. Looking step ahead, you'll always remain ambitious and step behind the never forget your past. So we built up the business. I opened the first hotel in 99. Then very quickly we built two more the same year and opened them in 2001, literally weeks before 9 11. Then I bought a hotel in Manchester. Then I started dreaming. I heard that Heathrow Airport were going to build the new terminal at Terminal 5 and they're going to have a terminal attached hotel because I'm never shy. I ran off to see the MD of Heathrow Airport and I said, john, will you consider me? Because I've been told that you're going to do a tender and the tender list is by invitation only. At that time, four hotels were called Aurora Hotels. And he said to me, sure, what brand? And I said, aurora, that's my brand. And he said, no thank you, Surinda, we're going to build a four and a half billion pound terminal and it's going to have to be a five star international brand, otherwise we want. And before I left his office I said, will you consider me on the tender list if I bring an international brand with me? And he said, sure, we know your experience at Heathrow Gatwick, we'll talk to you, we'll invite you if you get. I left his office and I started ringing Hilton, Marriott, Intercom, all the big boys. And I said, I want to build this hotel. I think I've got a good chance of winning the tender list. Will you consider, will you give me a franchise? And they all said, surinda, you can Build it, you can own it. But we never franchise our five star international brand, each and every one of them. And then I thought, well, actually, Heathrow Airport are going to give you this land inside the airport. They want percentage of the turnover as rent. So if I go other Marriotts and Hiltons and Sheratons on the Bath Road when the market is soft, why would they put them in the Terminal 5 Hotel? They'll send them to the other hotel to not pay the airport the full rent. So why don't I identify someone who hasn't got presence at Heathrow? And the two companies that didn't have one was Sofitel and the other one was Hyatt. So rang Hyatt in Chicago. Who are you? Aurora never heard. We don't do franchisee. They literally slammed the phone down. I then got in touch with the MD of Sofitel, a lovely man, Michael Flaxman in the UK. Mr. Ora, we'll give you franchise on Novotel or Ibase or Mercure, but we'll never do Sofitel.

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I'm getting to kind of the end of the Road. I then decided to write to the chairman in Paris and I said, I just wish you'd come and see how I run my hotels. I've got experience, I'm going to work with someone, but I'm only going to do it as a franchise. Didn't hear anything for over two months. Virtually giving up, but you never give up in life. And then I get a call from Paris saying, we've been sending mystery guests to your properties. We have never franchised Sofitel to anyone, but really like the way you operate and we're going to give you a franchise. Oh my God. Something started happening to me. Anyway, we went through the tender process and we went from 12 to six, down to last two and the last two was Marriott and us. And everyone kept saying, Aurora, no chance. Marriott had won the bid. Well, I was in Scotland when I got the call a few weeks later and saying, we've got some news you may want to hear. And it was just against the odds we got the franchise. The CEO of Accor said to me, three or four months ago, I was with him in Paris for the Olympics and he said, surinda, do you realize not only did we not give franchise to anyone before in 2006, we've never given it to anyone else since. So when I opened that hotel, Heathrow was still a little bit nervous. Are you capable of building a luxury five star hotel? And the day it was open, I took John Halloran, the md around and very serious guy, five foot five and very serious, you can never read the guy. And I said, I hope I've met your expectations. And he said, no, Surinder, no, actually you haven't met my expectations, but you've exceeded my expectations. And that hotel became, when it was opened as the best airport hotel in the world. Wow. So then I opened that in 2008, in July, in March, I started looking at buying 32 properties, all these buildings opposite and whatever from the airport, because the Spanish who bought the airport in desperate need of cash. So I decided to buy 32 properties for 340 million. And because it was a big deal for Anyone, I'm spending 200 million on my Sofitel and I'm doing 340 million pound deal. We completed the deal in August, a month after I opened the Sofitel and one of my three bankers said to me, are you sure you want to do this deal? The world is slipping, the markets are moving down. And I said, bill, I've shaken hands with the CEO, not going back on my word, my word is my bond. Anyway, we did the deal. I only borrowed 165 million out of 340 million. So putting all my cash from under the pillows into this deal and suddenly, four and a half months later, Lehman's went bust and the banks had sold me these horrible interest rate swaps. So I borrowed this 165 million. Four months later, my swaps were out of money, negative by 32 and a half million, which basically meant I now owe the bank 165 plus 32 and a half. And the bank said, three banks. And I said, we want either give us the 32 and a half million or we're going to collapse the swaps. And I literally begged them, wrote to them, it's only hypothetical risk. Without asking further question, they collapsed the swaps. I had about 6, 6 and a half million left in my bank account. They cleared my bank account, they don't need my consent. And the other money, 26, 27 million, they added to my debt. So my debt became 192 million. The properties I paid 340 million for came down four months later. Banks wanted to do another valuation. It came down to just under 220 million. So I've got 220 million sub the value and I've got 192 million debt. I was in deep trouble, so. And suddenly the banks are crawling all over me. You're in default. You're in default. You got this problem. You got this problem. So a lot of sleepless nights. I remember one night sleeping, my dear, Sunita's next to me. I must have cried so much you could literally squeeze water out of the pillow. I was just crying, saying, honey, what have I done to you? We're going to lose not only our business, but our house, even my cars, going to lose everything. And then by the morning, that valleys and hills comes back to me. Why am I going to walk? Because that's the only time it came to my head how some poor people think about jumping under the train or in the lake or doing something horrible. That's the night that was going through all the horrible things. And then I said, why am I going to not only let down my family, my five, my three kids and my wife, but I've got another 1800 family members, my team members, they've got rent, they've got mortgages to pay. I'm going to fight for them. And we pray to God, I mean, at that time, if I can just share with you, I had nearly a billion pound worth of debt and assets were probably worth 1.1 1.2 billion. So we were still producing good cash. But I was on the edge of the cliff and a very dear friend when I opened the first hotel. George Yoxall, who lives in Dorset. He and I used to play hockey together at ba. George was a city man. I didn't listen to his words carefully when I opened the first hotel. And he said to a very wise man, he said to me, surinda, remember you've done extremely well. The first hotel. The banks will always be with you with an umbrella over your head when the sun is shining. What words of wisdom. So then I said to myself, okay, I've gone through this pain. I'm going through this pain. And good old mum used to say, son, make mistakes but never repeat them. So learn from them and make new mistakes. We're humans, we'll always make mistakes. And so we worked very hard. And then I realized, Srinda, where did you go wrong? Because I'm loyal to people, my people. John, who was my fd, was with me when I had a business turning over 15 million in early 2002. 2003 in 2006, seven, eight in two and a half years we expanded and we spent 896 million on expansion. So the word, the famous words. I was over trading and over gearing. Plus I didn't have a team strong enough. So look through history. Where did you go wrong? I should have bought in. So you know, I was still flying my little 4 6e plane with my FD when I was now in a Airbus 320 or 747. So I then realized that I need to have bought in CFO. People said, oh you don't. You're paying your FD 80, 90,000. You need to pay someone 120,000. Forget that. I bought in an incredible guy from PwC. They were one of my advisors and Carlton, he's still with me 16 years later. He's now he's moved up from being a CFO to CEO of my Heathrowest project. So Heathrow, the terminal project is called Heathrow West. So I learned very quickly and you know, we'll never make that mistake again. And we de geared big time now. Pray to God. Touching wood. We're probably sub 30% geared. And during COVID we've probably done deal. I think nine deals, just under 300 million, all cash. And it's a lovely feeling not to go to the bank, not having to borrow money. And it's great.

Wow, Surinda, you've been in business for many decades. Do you think it's easier or harder now to start and scale a business?

Look, I think those. Some people, you know, of course we're right with the economy, the interest rates and the government and other things, but I think it's never late. It's never wrong or right time. Even when the. The markets were crashing, we were buying even or buying or selling or doing whatever. So I think, you know, when I was at Abbey Life, for example, when I joined them first, in those days, we used to get tax relief on insurance policies. Many in this room are probably too young to remember that. And people used to think, oh, my God, this is the end of the life insurance industry. No, I think if the world changes, we just have to adopt ourselves. And then I used to say to a lot of financial advisors, in my days, there were so many cowboys, guys. Now, if the industry is regulated by the fsafca, you got still the same amount of fish and you've got less fishermen, but you got to work harder. And hard work never kind of goes wasted as long as you believe in yourself.

So of all the risky businesses there are right now. The conversation we had over in the wings was that you love property because it keeps going up.

Well, it doesn't always go up. I mean, there are times when you. Obviously we have that cycle. The property will go down. Like in 2008, it did. I've tried a few times. Stocks and shares never worked for me. Because you can't be. You know, everyone's got their own touch and their own different. That's okay. Thank you. Everyone's got their own. Thank you. So it's just bricks and mortar. Always worked for me, and I believe in it. And I think providing you're willing to hold on to it in the long term, you can. You can never go wrong.

Okay, so let's do some numbers then. So that bit, that B and B, you know, you bought a few little houses and made it a B and B. And I think you said you paid 160 for it last time that was valued. What was that worth?

What? The BNB is not there because that's where I built the hotel.

Yeah, but there would have been a time when you knocked it down and built the hotel. So what was it worth at the end?

So you paid 1.6.

The little BNB that you paid 160.

I bought a few other properties with it.

I know you've got a lot.

No, no, no, no, no. But that hotel is one side.

Yeah, it was.

There was nothing. Different properties. So I Bought the first four is one.

Right.

And then I bought the other eight properties.

Right.

There's few other houses and an office building.

You literally are playing Monopoly, aren't you?

No, but I paid 1.6 for the whole lot.

Right. It's a whole lot all in 1.6.

And by the time.

What's it now worth? 50 plus 50 million.

Yeah.

So paid 1.6 and now worth 50.

Yes, but then I spent in those days 18 million building it.

Oh, so you've only got 32 left. Okay, so if you could. Do you know the value of all of your hotels and office buildings?

Well, pray to God, I guess we now well north of two and a half billion.

Two and a half billion.

And that, that doesn't really include the land like I bought for the new terminal. I mean, I bought that land 15, 16 years ago. It was quite interesting because the land sits between Terminal 5 and the M25.

What's the size of the land?

65 acres.

So I'm thinking a big back garden. 65 acres.

Yeah, but listen, I.

In Heathrow.

Yeah, but in life, in my younger days, life is. You've got to take some risks. And in my younger days, when I went to build the hotel, the first hotel, maybe if I knew as much as I know today, I may not have had the bottle to build it because of all the risks with it. I've never met this sad gentleman, Sri Lankan gentleman, he was in the care home business in Manchester, had four or five care homes, sold them to build one hotel and budgets went from nine to 19 million and kept going back, borrowing more money, giving his own house security, and lost everything. The hotel house.

You don't give personal guarantees, do you?

So I did pre 2008.

Oh, right. And that's why you don't anymore.

No. So, you know, I. Basically, the one thing I recommend, I mean, of course, the risk and reward. In the earlier days, I might jump from the fifth floor or the sixth floor. Now I'll probably jump from the first to the second floor. I'm quite happy to break a leg because without risk and reward, you're never going to do anything. But it's calculated risks. So if I buy something and I'll say, well, if I'm buying it for a pound, and if the market turns against me and goes down by 20% or 15%, can I afford to hold on to it? Can I afford to take that hit? If I go into stocks and shares, I might end up losing, getting down to zero.

And.

And that's why I don't have the bottle to do that. So it's just that risk and reward and I think now we'll do things on a calculated basis and say, well, if we buy something. So when I bought that land, a council that owned the land, it was after the split of the GLA and they didn't even know that the council actually owned it was a council away from here, they owned the land. So they gave it to, I think it was Savold. And they said, find us a buyer. But you must find a buyer who can complete within two months. They had to do it before the year end. And so they went to British Airways, they went to Heathrow Airport, us and I think two or three other selected parties. And plus if you had the 65 acres in the middle, there was someone else who had a cottage, an old lady living there and she had right access over the whole land. So BA and Heathrow Airport put their offers in, but subject to survey, subject to soil test, subject to board approval. And little Surinda sent an offer in those days used to write cheques. So I wrote a cheque made payable to the council for a million pounds and I said, attached it to the offer and said, if you want to cash it, that can be my non refundable deposit. All I need is a clean title. So that's why we beat BA and Heathrow Airport. And I've sat on that land for 15, 16, 17 years. So we paid for it cash, we sat on it, we've got not a single penny income. And the old lady in the middle, who basically she passed away, her family came to us. You're the natural buyer, by the way. Our cottage is worth a million quid. And in those days those cottages were worth about 200. And luckily I had about another 8 or 10 cottages on that site. So I said to them very politely, I'm very happy if you want to pay me 400,000, 500,000 for my cottage, you can have as many as you like. In the end, I think we bought the cottage for about 400,000. So they got a decent premium. We cleaned up this, you know, we got the whole site and he threw off, try to bully us and try to buy off us and, and you know, in the earlier days they said, oh, Srinda's only trying to enhance his land value, he's got no intention of building the terminal. And before the COVID every time we used to go to DFT and caa, they'll never take us seriously. And they kept saying caa, there's only one credible party for Heathrow expansion and that's Heathrow Airport Limited, Heathrow west, you're not credible. So we then bought the best consultants and I spent nearly 50 million of my own cash. And sometime after Covid started, in the middle of COVID May 2020, if you look on CA's website, they came up, they issued a report and said, heathrowest, you are credible now. The only difference is we put tools down because of COVID for Heathrow expansion. By then Heathrow airport had spent 760 million pounds on consultant fees. We spent sub 50 million. And Chris Grayling, before COVID was the transport DFT, he was the Transport Minister. He called me into House of Parliament, five or six of his team members there. I went with my cfo, the two of us, and he said, srinda on record. I mean, how crazy and silly it can be as a minister. Srinda, you've done really well in life. Do you want to be known in the history books as the guy who derails my project? He said that three times, which I couldn't believe on record. And then I said, chris, are you more interested in your vanity project or are you more interested in what's right for the nation? Whereas when Grant Shapps came in, he'd obviously been briefed by his team and I had a meeting with him and he said, Mr. Ora, I'll make sure my team will give you fair airtime like Heathrow, but then I don't make the decision whatever. And I said, that's all I'm looking for, just fairness. And now the crazy thing is Gatwick, the CEO was telling me last week they're getting their second run may with planning. And I said, stuart, how much have you spent on your planning like Heathrow? He said, around 60 million. So we spent just under 50, Gatwick has spent 60 and Heathrow spent 760. And the reason why they spend so much money because it's not all their fault. The system, the regulated asset base is the more they spend, they make 6%. So everything they do. We built a car park at Cargo for British Airways the same time as they were building Terminal 2. We spent just under £10,000 per space for the car park for BA multi story car park. Heathrow spent 62 and a half thousand pounds per space for their car park. And then one of the airlines said to me, srinda, are there any big trees that he throw? And I said, not that I know of. Well, they've been sent a bill by Heathrow airport to remove three trees at £76,000. And then he said to me, what do you spend in your smoking shelters at the hotel? And I said, 20, 30 grand for a smoking shelter. He said, Heathrow built two smoking shelter, sorry, one smoking shelter at Terminal 4. And they spent 1.1 million and they spent converting two rooms in Terminal 4 into disabled toilets and they spent half a million pounds per disabled toilet. That's how they've been ripping off and, you know, that's how they make their margins.

I don't really know what to say.

Don't buy shares in Heathrow Airport.

That's what I was going to say. If you had to start again from scratch, you've lost your billions, you've lost all your hotels, but you've got your knowledge. What are you doing in 2024 and 2025?

I think I'll always just go out there and work hard for my family, my wife and my kids and my grandkids. I mean, that's what really. And, you know, the greatest thing in this country is that, you know, if we've got dreams, we can all go out and work hard and realize our dreams. You have to have dreams first. You'll have some knockbacks, you'll have ups and downs, but you got to believe in yourself. And I really think, regardless, I really do feel quite sad, in a sense. I was saying earlier about the things that I don't like about the welfare system and the other thing, I wouldn't use the word jealousy, but I would use the word envious. Because here, if someone works really hard and we all have a choice what we want to do, and if you want to work 6 hours or 60 hours, it's up to you. But if you work hard and you realize your dreams, whether you have a nice house, nice car, nice job here, some people just sitting there and thinking, how can I get you out of that? Whereas in somewhere like states, how can I get into one of those? You know, we're all reading in the press and the media, and I'm sure if I was to ask all of you, you'll all have your own views. So I learned the lesson that I nearly collapsed the company, nearly went bust when I didn't have a strong enough finance team. So if I want the best people to run my company, I have to pay them. I have to have the best people in life. It's like driving a car or a holiday or whatever, you know, you get what you pay for. So if we want to have the best people running UK PLC we have to pay them as well. If someone asks me, saying we're going to pay our PM half a million million pounds. Happy days. I've got no problem. Let's bring the best people. Let's bring the. Whether it's the MPs, whether it's the cabinet people, I don't care what party they belong to, but we should, you know, paying people pittance and you know, you do get some very good people who are in that, in Parliament because they believe in, they want to make a difference. But I can tell you, I'm sorry to say this, and I'll say this on record, I have no, you know, three quarters or two thirds of our parliamentarians, I'm sorry, are not the people that should be running the country. You need, You need the best people. And if they do well for the country, we'll all do well. You know, of course not everyone's going to be millionaire and not everyone's going to be billionaire, but not everyone wants to be a millionaire and billionaire, I can tell you, and I've been blessed that I have a few friends who maybe have 100, 200, 300 million pound yacht or private jets or homes. And the life they lead, does that really make them happy? I won't mention, I'll never mention any names.

What are their names?

No, I'll take you on the yacht. And they go on the yacht and it is so sad that they sit there and have no friends to share it with, no family to share it with. You might have this one person on a yacht and they've got 30 crew. Well, what good is that? I see my best friend Sukhbir, the guy, I mean, in life also doesn't matter how brilliant one is, you need that bit of luck to go with it. If you're David Beckham and you might keep hitting the crossbar and the ball might not end up in the back of the net because it's just not your day. So my best friend, I was very, I led, when I say sad life when I was adopted as a three day old child by my mom's sister in India and they spoil me rotten. And When I was 11, 12, I used to gamble in India. There's a little local drug that they use, put in onion, bhajis and whatever people, it's called afim, I don't know. And you know, I used to eat all that, I used to carry a knife, all the wrong things. And when I came to England, I met this wonderful friend at the school in Acton, Sukhbir my friend, he lives in Aivar. He just put me on the right track because I used to say I hate my mom, my real mom here, she's too strict. I get smacked if I lie if I do something. And one day we're having lunch and I said, I can't stand my mom, you know, and we're having lunch in a park outside our school and he's got tears and he said, surinda, feel lucky you've got a mum. I lost my mom when I was 6 years old and my best friend is my dad and he's still my best friend. And you know, he could live in a, a nice four bedroom, five bedroom detached house. He doesn't go into yachts or planes or anything else, but he's still my best friend. So do the yachts and planes, millions and billions make you happy? No, but it's just what each individual wants.

So why do you have two and a half billion pounds worth of property if the billions don't make you happy, why don't you keep buying billions of properties?

You know, you get to a stage I was asked to a number of years ago, three times, would I go on Dragon's Den?

Oh wow.

And I said my family, my wife would say, you should definitely go because you'll give them. And you know, I spoke to a very dear friend who's in the celebrity world and she said to me, surinda, you don't want to be in the limelight, do you? And I said, definitely not. She said, don't do it. So I went to my local university, Royal Holloway, and I said, can we do Aurora's Den and we'll put 20, 25 grand for young people. And so now whenever I'm asked to, last week I've spent some kids at young people at lse. So if I can share my experiences for now, whether It's a billion, 2 billion, 5 billion, whatever it may be, I'm always, you know, I want to remain ambitious. And you know, my wife and kids will say, when are you going to retire? You're now just 66 years old and all. And I was saying to my wife recently, honey, I'll never retire because I love work too much, I love doing deals, but now it's getting the right balance in life. I've got a fantastic team. Sanjay, my son's doing really well. So this year my daughter's 40th, my wife's 60th, my mother in law's 80th, we've had holidays every month. So it's just getting that right balance and you know, it's like anything like food, you know, if you don't have, if you don't eat enough, you're going to be hungry and if you eat too much, you're going to be sick. And I never want to lose my ambition, my dream, but I don't want to now. The deals I want to do are the deals where we actually get more enjoyment and fun. And plus my wife and daughter in law last few years have been doing a lot of charity work. I took my wife early this year to India because you never forget your home. That's my, you know, and so we go there and we do some charity work. And my wife was so touched by these young kids, 23, 24 of them that were basically no family, orphans and torn clothing, education, nothing. And my wife said, I want to adopt these kids. Great, I'm very happy for you, honey, let's do it. And that's satisfaction, you know, next weekend.

You adopted 24 kids.

My wife, I just help her pay for it.

That's why you work so much.

And then, you know, every two years we'll do a charity ball where we put everything in and every penny we have in the room. And the last three, thank you for.

The invite to that.

And you're coming to that. You very kindly generously bought a table for £10,000. Thank you for that.

Thank you.

And we're doing it at one of our hotels at the intercom, at the O2. And the last three we've done, we did it for Royal Marlson and Macmillan because they looked after my late mum. The last one we did was for British Heart foundation and Diabetes UK and Thames Hospice in Windsor and we raised 1.26 million one night. So please bring some cash with you. Okay. All right. And the one we we're doing next Saturday is for Royal Marls and kids with cancer and Save the Children. So I think it's in life you get to a stage also can't do everything, can't do all the charities and every. But it's whatever you can do. And you know, at the end of the day, we were all on this planet and we come with nothing. We're gonna go with nothing. So. And that's why I think I see some people in the circles, they have a few million and they just think they're way above you. And I go into my hotels and my porter, my receptionist, my maid, they're part of my family and if I need to help them carry the case, I'LL do it. I don't want them opening doors. I hate someone calling me Mr. Aurora or sir. Call me Surinda. I'm part of the family.

Three quick fire questions. Number one, what would you say is your biggest failure or regret?

Gosh, in my earlier days I bought, I was talking to a couple of friends and they had some, they bought some houses in the auction sitting tenants and I thought oh I can do that because you buy them for half the price and then either try and push them out or try to buy them out. I could never do that because when you buy them they're elderly people and you know why am I going to. I used to go and have tea and coffee with them and but they were always happy and stayed there and I then sold them at a loss and whatever. So that was. But then again I've just bought two more last week's houses next to my Luton Hoo estate. But they made sense for long term because within our demise and it just made sense but I'll never ever and I said to my property team don't you ever go and knock on the door and ever when I say harass these elderly people, you know they're there. We'll be good neighbors forever. And the other two we bought normal tenancies and it just made sense to close up the whole property.

Okay, what's a quick story you've never shared or secret you've never told?

This is my dear wife and I were engaged to different partners. It's nothing to do with business. We were engaged to different partners and then of course we met and you know she's been most amazing wife. We've celebrated.

So when you met your wife you were engaged and she was engaged?

No, no, we were both engaged to different partners. We broke up our engagement and then we met about a year later. And then in those days you just go to the girl's house, we were introduced by someone and she brings in a cup of tea and you say right yes or no. And after the visit her parents rang my parents and they said yeah, we like the boys. Should we marry them all for. I said no, no, I've just gone through one engagement, I want to get to know her. And her father said my two girls don't go out. And I said in that case no deal. And and then they came back, well how long do you need? And I said minimum six months. And I was just so blessed. Two and a half months later didn't tell. Both sets of parents took Sunita to Hatton Garden Bought her a ring. So we were engaged. Parents didn't know. And I remember getting a tube in those days and there was only payphones. And we went to McDonald's in Marble Arch, got our Macadie and went and sat in Hyde park. And that was our engagement. And then we rang the parents and I. Then that evening, I don't really share this too much, we rang the parents from pay phone, got home and both sets of parents at our house, let's open a bottle of champagne, and the kids are engaged. And I took Sunita, she was only 18, into the dining room next door. The parents are in the lounge. And I said, honey, I need to tell you something. She said, yeah? You sure? I said, well, I've got two wishes, two things you need to know. One, I want to live with my parents. Of course, no problem, very happy. And she has been an incredible wife. So ticking the box. And then I said, and by the way, I've also got a wife and two kids in India and I have to financially support them. And you should have just seen her face dropped. She's in tears. And I said, well, do you want to marry me or not? And she said, yes. And I gave her a hug and I said, I was only joking.

That's a good test. I like that. That's a good test. And the final question, this show is called Disruptors. We have lots of disruptors in the room. Disruptive entrepreneurs. What does the word disruptive mean to you?

Well, I guess I learned that word or learned the meaning of that word when I came up the idea of the Crew Hotel. Because the Crew Hotel had never been done in the uk. There was only one hotel. Well, BA actually owned their own hotel in New York, so that wasn't even someone externally. So everyone in the marketplace, all the hoteliers along Heathrow, said, he'll never make it work because the crew don't spend money because they travel all the time. You can't blame the poor crew people because they get their allowances and if it was me, I'd be saving the money. Some of them will even take sandwiches on trips and whatever. So against the odds. And they'll never spend money in the hotel. One or two, even extreme, will go into the cafe restaurant and say, oh, can I have a cup of water, hot water, and they'll take their own tea bag with them. So, you know, everyone is different and they'll never spend any money in the hotel. But we made it work. And I remember saying to Guy Morris, who was my first ever general manager he was 20 plus years with 40. And the first thing I said to him, guy, we must be different from other hotels. And he said, what do you mean, boss? And I said, I want to treat all the guests like royalty and my staff like family. And that really has paid us and serviced us. I mean. And I make no apology on this because we live in, you know, when I came from India again, my dear old mum, all the words of wisdom she used to say, son, you're here now. We have to live not just typical back home way. We need to also make sure that we make some in the society and we work. And our hotel had only been open for less than three months. So this is Guy Morris, good old English gentleman who's worked in hotels all his life. I called him in the lobby, the hotel lobby, my first hotel. And I said, guy, I don't want to run my hotel like this. And he looked at me like what boss? And as I'm looking around, all my receptionists are Asian, my concierge are Asian, my guest relations are Asian and it's owned by an Asian. I don't want to run the hotel because the poor fellow didn't know how to take it. I might be testing him like I did with Sunita. Well, he didn't know that, by the way. So he said, and I said, no, Guy, I just want to have a mixture. You know, just when I say mixture, just we want to be very open. And then he called HR and the lady said, well, but Surendra, everyone that comes or people apply, 96, 97% are Asian because we, Hounslow, Hayes, Southall. And I said to her, I said, anne, have you ever looked around Staines? Have you looked in Windsor? Have you looked in Datchet? So now when you go into our hotels, always. And the other thing I said to her, and this is more self satisfaction, and I said to her, my hr, I said, make sure you also offer disabled people an opportunity in our hotels. I said, don't feel sorry for them because. Because that's the one thing I'm not. I'll never feel sorry for anyone. But I said, if someone's capable and they want to learn and it takes us twice or three times as long for them to, you know, they want to work. So our first job, you know, was a young man, Raj, who was from Hounslow, in a wheelchair. And he came and we had to like build a reception desk a bit higher for him because he, you know, the way he could sit comfortably, he was absolutely brilliant and he Got his first paycheck. I wasn't there, but Rebecca, Becky, my front office manager, told me the story. He's got his paycheck, and Becky's there, and he's looking at his paycheck and he's crying. He's wearing glasses, crying. And Becky said, what's the matter, Raj? And he said, I'm 32 and this is my first paycheck. And that was the most incredible thing. Forget the millions and billions. And then we had Stuart, who was mentally the poor guy. You know, he, you know, the team would say to me, oh, you know, there's something strange about him. He wants to go with his friends and go and drink beer around the graveyard or whatever, you know, and it's just the way he was working. Every time I used to ring, he'd go really nervous. He'll freeze. And after a couple of months, I said, we've got to get rid of him. He can't work. He can't do this. And then Ann, my general manager, Chris, and another manager, said, we think you're wrong, Surinda. We need to give him more time. And guess what? He was a brilliant star. And I think he worked with us for over 10 years. And that's really. And I still encourage that in all my properties. And so it's just getting that right balance all around in my world.

So two more questions, but it's just a yes or no answer. Cancer.

Okay.

Despite everything going on in the uk, do you still love our country?

I do. But, you know, I think we're going to have to all make a difference and really think about. Seriously. I think the current government have got it badly wrong. But yes, I love the country. All is love.

So yes, comma, but yes. Yeah, all right, I agree. And do you still love being an entrepreneur?

100%. I think that's what really makes me jump out of bed.

Ladies, gentlemen, everyone, Mr. Surinda Arora.

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