Kent Bray | City Trading, Cocaine Addiction, and the Truth About Wealth Taxes

Ken, is it true you spend 80 grand a year on cocaine as a trader?

Rob?

I did 80 grand a year.

80 grand a year, mate, we'll get straight into the numbers. So, man, that's 80,000 at the end, you know, because addiction is a progressive illness. But £80,000 straight up the nose, that's not partying. I was in isolation at that stage, so give you some numbers. I was doing 20 to 30 grams of cocaine a week, and on some days I was doing six grams a day. Now, for anyone out there who doesn't know much about cocaine, 20 to 30 grams a week is like 40 bottles of wine a week. I was completely and utterly addicted by the end of my time at Citibank.

How long had you been at Citibank?

I was at Citibank 18 years, right? Yeah. And at the end of it, I got myself into my 40s and, mate, financially secure.

Yeah.

You know, you don't start Citibank for 18 years if you're no good. And I'd had some, you know, some very, very good years and paid. Been. Was paid very, very well. Had this, this cocaine just. I just got out of control.

So would you have it, like, when you got up in the morning? Would you have it when you're at work? Are you like the trader doing it in the toilets or you're just doing it in public? How's it all working, mate?

My first thought in the morning was, how, when and where am I getting my coke? I'd wake up my first engagement with life before I'd gone to the toilet, before I'd checked my phone. And then when I went to work, to answer your question specifically, I was getting three grams of coke. I was, you know, standing order, if you like. Drug dealer would drive Canary Wharf. He'd be in his car outside of Citibank at Canary Wharf, nine o' clock every morning, and I'd pick up three grams of coke.

And were you the only one or was everyone on it?

I was the only one I was aware of because I had to be the only one I was aware of because I was so secretive. Got what?

I mean, so you never told anyone?

No, I didn't want. I didn't want anyone to know. And one way of ensuring no one knows, don't do any with anyone at Citibank.

But surely they could have, like. Surely it would have been obvious, your eyes like that?

100%. I had eyes like dinner plates. But sometimes I'm jumping around my seat like Michael Jackson as the cocaine's raging through Me, but, but we'll get into this. I was hiding in plain sight because of my profile, my history. Made a play Australian under 21's rugby. Queensland, New South Wales. Played against the British Lions, Oxford University varsity match. I've got this profile as this rugby player.

Yeah.

And talking to me back in those days, I didn't profile remotely as a drug user. And I saw the guys, I think I spoke to Gary actually, and a couple other guys, couple of years.

Gary Stevenson.

Gary Stevenson, correct. Who we'll get on to obviously. But. And I said to them, a couple of years after I got clean sober, I met up with two guys and.

You'Re still itching your nose.

Yeah. I can assure you it's. Oh God, they were dark days. They were dark, dark days. And I said to the guys, what did you think? When I was losing all that weight? I told them, I said, guys, I was a drug addict.

So none of them knew?

No.

None of your friends knew?

None of my work colleagues knew. Right. And none of my close friends knew. And Robert's like this. I was so overwhelmed and gripped by guilt, shame, remorse and embarrassment. I couldn't let anyone know. I was an unbelievably secretive user. Now the problem with that is made him take. Mate, if you don't put your hand up, no one helps. So I was one on one with addiction. It's only going to be one winner. There's.

So I want to come back to the finish of the story because I want to talk to you about Gary Stevenson. Yeah, we've got some strong views on him, but first things first is were you a better trader on cocaine or off cocaine?

Geez, that's a good question. I was a functioning trader. I'll tell you a quick story. Second, last year at Citibank, my second last year I was sitting there six months in, I've made no money, I got a big book, I was trading forward euro because you've made no money in six months. In six months I'm up and down, I'm up and down and mate, I'm in now the toilet, you know, I mean, sniff, go to the back the desk, trade a bit, da, da, da. And you know, I'm jumping around the place, you know, as cocaine users do. I'm six months in calendar year, right. January 1st deck 31 is your. That's your, that's what you. That's your trading year. So June, I've made nothing, I'm up a buck, I'm up $1 million or something. Trading for the bank budget's about $12 million, right? Something in Farkennel. Anyway, I think I see a correlation between two markets, basis swaps. And I trade the thing called forward foreign exchange. So that thing you see euro rate, the euro rate, euro against dollar, spot rate, I traded, you know, where's it going to be in six months time? Where's it going to be in three months time? That's what I trade, right? So I'm up and I see this correlation, so I start ramping up the risk on my book, right? Putting on risk, right? So just think, make it simple. Just think stock market. And I'm going long, the stock market, right? And it's going up and up and up and up. It's just on a trend. And I just keep, I'm sniffing, I'm doing coke, I can come back, the desk, you know, it's going well, just ramp it up more. And the boys are going, everyone calls me KB and they're going, mate, kb, you're on fire. Like your P and L is like, mate, make $3 million in a month, make $4 million in a month. And anyway, this weekend comes along and there was this big. There was something going on in the weekend, some big economic forum or something in Europe. And I thought, you know what? Fuck. The best thing to do here is square up, right? So in a moment of clarity, when I wasn't on coke, which wouldn't have been, well, I was always on coke, but in this moment of clarity, I squared the position up. So I've locked in my profit. So I'm up about eight or nine million dollars. I've made eight or nine million dollars in couple of months, two or three months quick time. So I'm sitting there and go, square up, mate. I'm doing so much coke, I just, I'm just sitting there and I'm thinking, I can't, I've got to do something. So I just thought, ah, fuck it, I've made all this money going long, it's got, it's got to go, it's got to retrace at some stage. So I just started leaning into it, selling. So now I'm not square. I'm selling and I'm fucking in for a penny, in for a pound, you know, and I'm just leaning in, you know. So I go home that weekend. The sad part about all this is I lived in an apartment on the river. So I went from Canary Wharf, Jubilee line. I get off the. And I go into my apartment at 5:30 Friday night. I don't leave that apartment. The only time I leave that apartment is to get drugs, Coke. I'm leaving that apartment alone. I go into work Monday morning, and there's a guy sitting there, and he goes, you look like shit. And I said, oh, mate, I've got the flu and I've been in bed all weekend. Might have just used coke. I've hardly slept, right? I'm an addict. I'm just an addict, right? And I. And he said. He starts logging into the system, and everything's pretty. Everything's visual. So he goes. He said, have you seen your P. L? And I said. And I'm like, no. And he said. He goes, hit the button. I hit my reval button. Might have made $5 million on that weekend. Wow. On that position, right? I got paid. So I got. I made $24 million in six months. Had a budget of 12. Made 24 in six months. Look, I got paid a lot of money. I got paid, you know, well into, you know, well over seven figures, you know what I mean, for that year, right?

And so are you better on cocoa?

That's it. So, mate, I don't know, like, what. All that. Okay, let's just. Let's just. Right, Sizes. I don't know what happened that year, right? Because the next year, I was trading so erratically that one of the big bosses, I went to him and said, mate, he said, you're all right. I said, I'm cooked. I want to leave. Is there any voluntary redundancies coming along? And he said, just relax. Just chill. Then a few months later, he was clearly monitoring my positions, and I'm just all over the shop trading. Why? I'm all over the shop trading. Because, man, I'm off my head on cocaine and I'm done. Anyway, I was cooked. I was checked out. And he came to me, he said, you know, you asked that voluntary redundancy? And I said, yeah. He said, I think that's a good idea.

All right?

And I left. Sid. They paid me out, you know, they were great. I mean.

And how long had you been there?

18 years. Okay, 18 years at the bank.

I want to come back to that.

Yeah.

Gary Stevenson, you traded with him when he was at Citibank.

100%.

So his whole career at Citibank, you.

Were there on the desk with him.

You were on the desk with him.

He was my trainee at one stage.

Right, so you were training Gary Stevenson. You're literally on a desk next to the guy.

I sat with Gary on the desk for five years. He went to Tokyo for the last year of his career. Which we'll get on to why. Yeah, I know Gary, right? Gary's trading. Wow. Absolutely.

So is he a scam?

Is he a scam?

Is Gary Stevenson a scam?

Is he a scam?

Some of his story does not stack.

Yeah, look, listen, when I wrote a. He got a book out, I wrote a review, that review got a book review, that review got a lot of attention. I put something on LinkedIn.

And then you wrote an article about. That's how we met.

Yeah. Right.

Because I saw your article. Doing a bit of research. Yeah.

FT gets hold of me. They. They start asking some questions, like you are going, hold on, there's something not right here. And they just said, emphatically, like you just said, is he a scam? The question, the FT said, did he make that money? Oh, sorry. Was he the number one trader at Citibank in 2011?

So that's what he claims all the time. He claims he was the number one trader globally at Citibank in 2011. Was he?

No.

Is he anywhere close?

No.

What would the top trader in Citibank in 2011 make?

Okay, so the guy. There was one guy on a desk. Is Bill in the book? I'll keep his anonymity. You can find his name online, anyway. But he would make over $100 million a year.

And what would Gary make in a year?

His first year, I think one year, he made about, I think, 12 million bucks or $10 million. And then this one year, I think Bill had a bit of a rough year, and so he fell off the perch, so to speak. Number one. So on our desk, Gary was number one. Right? That's on our desk. But our desk is 10 people.

And how many people work at Citibank?

Oh, well, back in those days, I think there was like 200,000 or something. Like, not all traders, but Gary.

So the best guy's doing 100 million in Citibank, and he's doing about 10.

Million in his first year. Yeah. In his second year, he has a standout year. Right. And this is the one. He says I was the best. Anyway, there's a guy.

What did he make in that year?

34.

He made 34 million for the bank.

Yeah. Yeah.

But someone else in the same bank had done 100 million.

I have no doubts. No doubts. I mean, this is foreign exchange. We've got this equities. There's oil, there's gas, there's, you know, there's a number of products. And there's a guy, Jeff who the FT spoke. There's an article on this. This is all in this article. This guy from the ft, he spoke to numerous people. Most of them were anonymous. I said, you can put my name to it because I'm telling the truth. You know, I'm telling what I believe. Right. So they get Jeff, and Jeff, he is privy to the numbers. And he said, categorically, no chance. No chance. It was Gary, number one, the number one global trader at Citibank. No chance. Right, but the one that.

Selling hundreds of thousands of copies of this book, I think it's nine or 10 weeks in the charts. Best. Yeah, but off the back of this story. But it like there's lots of great works of fiction that are great books.

Well, I reached out to him and I said, gary, I've read your book. I've got some concerns here. I said, is. First of all, I said, is this book fiction or nonfiction?

What did he say?

Non fiction.

Right.

I said, gary, you weren't mate. Come on, what's that still got him and whatever. And I said, mate.

And what did he say to you?

He said, well, he said that. He said that he was told he was number one in fxlm, which is foreign exchange. Local markets, which is fx, foreign exchange, which is not global. Which is not global.

So what is it they say? Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Yeah, but that's. But that's on the back of the book. Right, so the one. So with that, it's an interesting one here, Rob, because I'm a bit conflicted because I get asked the questions, I answer the questions truthfully. Right, but then. Which we'll get on to this next part about it pales into insignificant to the issues he's raising, which is real.

Yeah, but his whole story is off the back of it. If I said I am the richest property developer in the world and then like I've got 345 units, we just bought a bank today, I've got a decent amount of property. But if I said I am the biggest property developer in the world, or I am in 2025, I'm surfing off of that massive story, and that would be a lie.

There's provenance and credibility here. Right. There's no two ways about that. And I'm not defending what he said. The other one, that.

But it's true or it's not true.

Well, it's not true.

It's not true.

It's not true. We can put that one to bed right now. It's not true.

Okay, so his book is good because it's fiction.

Oh, there's a lot of stuff in there that's true in the book. There's a lot that is true. For example, I saw Gary about four years ago and what happened was our time at Citibank when he turned up on the desk, mate, I really liked Gary. I really liked him, mate. He's a kid. From humble beginnings. He won this card game and I just.

Is that a true story, that whole card game?

That's a true story. That is a true story. And he gets onto the desk and he did have a standout year, but it looks like this, six years at Citibank. First two years just to get to know the business. Next, next year he gets paid. I think this is coming from his book, by the way. I think he said in the book, $420,000 bonus, which is actually his total compensation. That's basic. Plus bonus. The next year he gets, he makes 34 million. And in the book he says he got paid two and a half million. Which sounds right. The 420 sounds right. Then as far as I know, the next two years, he didn't make anything of note because he was in dispute with the bank. So two years trading, I reckon he's in for about total comp. Of US$3 million, 50% tax. You're down to one and a half million to convert that to sterling. I reckon Gary's walked out of Citibank after six years with 1.2. One and a half maybe million pounds.

Over how long?

Over six years. Now, that's not a lot of money. It's not an insignificant amount of money. But where I struggle with is, you know, this one comment, I was. This is him, his quote. I was the biggest fucking trader in the whole fucking world. Singularly. He said that on a podcast. I was. Gary said he was the biggest. Not a Citibank. Right. And I started to think, mate, you're losing it here. Like, that is crazy talk. Like, that's crazy, crazy talk. And there's this thing about there's a myth going on here. Like, you know, multimillionaire probably is. I mean, I don't know what he's done in the last 10 years.

If 1.2 over 6 years means multi millionaire, I mean, does it.

Well, well, I don't know what he's done in the last 10 years. Let's be fair here. I don't know what he's done in the last 10 years. But all I'm saying is there's a myth that I got the market right 15 years ago. I'm the guy who always gets it right. I'm sort of some sort of savin market genius, whatever, which I don't always get.

Like investing, right. Is one of the richest people in the world. No one gets investing right all the time.

Well, that's, that's the other thing as well. The other thing I will say is you're right. I don't know anyone who's got it right 15 years in a row. Right. The other thing as well is that when you sit at Citibank, mate, you are. It is a golden seat, right? You've got economists, you've got support. You want a spreadsheet on this. I want to know about this political situation. I want to know about the second mate. Those seats are golden, like in the sense that you are absolutely supported to make money. I know a ton of traders who've left trading environments where they've got that support. They go home. There's no intellectual property bouncing around. They haven't got the Economist, they've got to go and pick up the kids. They come back in that hour, the market's gone crazy. I know a lot of guys who've left places like Citibank and have gone trading PA at home, mate. They haven't made money because they haven't got that support. Maybe Gary's the exception to the rule, but you don't think so? I don't. Listen, put it this way. I left Citibank and I've never made money trading pa. What does PA mean? Personal account. On my personal account, right, so not the. Mate, if you're sitting there, I lose a million bucks in a day. It ain't my fucking money. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you a story.

Always easier, mate, I'll tell you a story.

I sat there one day, I was trading Dolly yen and four Doll or something. Something came out. Sovereign debt rerating or something in the. Something came out, right? And mate, so Rob, I'm up. It's, you know, same story. It's about. I think it was mid year or something. I was up about $8 million. I had a budget of $10 million, but I lost $5 million in about six hours or four hours. The market just went against me. I felt physically ill. I was. My mind was scrambled and whatever, right? And that's the thing about markets is you can see it's what's going on in the stock market at the moment. 25% down, some, some index, not indexes, some particular Stocks. So what I'm saying is you do it alone, Right? It is rare. Maybe Gary is making a lot of money, Pennsylvania. But I wouldn't be betting on it. I wouldn't be betting on it.

Okay, so I want to talk to you about some of the things Gary's saying. Yeah, Gary was. Agreed to come on the show three times.

Okay.

I don't know if it was him or his team that was sort of changing all the dates. And that can be normal. Well, actually, three times isn't normal, but changes can happen. I'd still have him on the show. I'm not a Gary hater, you know, and I'd ask him the same questions I'm asking you. But the reason I'm talking to you, he blew up debating with my friend Daniel Priestley on short. Stephen Bartlett saw the debate and didn't really debate, just correct. Talked over and shouted Daniel down. You know, who held himself really well. And just some of the things he said really, really shocked me. And I'm really worried about this Gary Stevenson guy. I'm worried number one, from the messages, I'm worried number two, what's behind him. And he looks to me on the edge of a bit of a breakdown. And Daniel knows him behind the scenes, and he's always scratching himself and just, you know, like, looks like a breakdown waiting to happen. So I'm worried on three levels.

Okay.

Let's first start with his message. So these are quotes from him that he said. He has said, multi millionaires telling poor kids you just need to be more entrepreneurial is sick. Kids don't need entrepreneurship. They need to pay their bills. The rich becoming more richer and the poor, well, I guess they'll just die. If your dad wasn't rich, you'll never be rich. Like, he's basically saying, if you're not already rich, you're screwed. And I mean to say the poor, well, I guess they'll just die. I think this is a really toxic message, which is taking abdicating responsibility from the individual. No, not everyone could be an entrepreneur, but everyone can make their life better. Everyone can go for the pay rise. Everyone can go for the promotion. Everyone can wake up today and go, do you know what? I'm gonna try harder. Yeah, but he's basically saying, if you're broke, you're. And there's nothing you can do, just die.

Yeah.

To me, that is such a toxic message. What are your thoughts?

Agreed. Agreed. Absolutely agreed. And, you know, he said the thing about this is Gary started with nothing. Gary is the Guy you just described, get out there, make something of yourself, you know, go hard, right? Gary, Gary made something out of nothing. And he's almost saying, look, I've made it. But, but you guys, you're fucked if you haven't. If you haven't got a rich parent, you're fucked, right? And I've got.

Is that real or is that just arrogance? What, what is that?

I don't know what it. I don't know. I don't know why he would say that. Because he, he wants to. He should be encouraging and motivating his followers, right? So I like you. I hate the message. I'll tell you why I hate the message, right? This is about the concept of hope.

Right, which we need in the UK right now, right?

So I'll give you a real life experience around hope. So I sat in a rehab in 2016 and I was 10 stone, right?

And what are you now, about 14? Yeah.

So I went from 15 to stone to 10 stone. So with the drug abuse, because I wasn't eating anyway, I sat there, rob, four days into rehab, I'm sitting on the single bed and I'm crying my eyes out. I'm absolutely full of self loathing, self pity, anger, resentment and everything, right? And I thought, I'm going to fucking drive. I'm going to die here. Trust me, when you're six grams in. I wasn't six grams in of cocaine when I was in rehab, but prior to that, if you're six grams in, your heart is under an extreme amount of pressure. How I didn't die is a miracle. So I'm sitting in rehab going, this has got to fucking work. This has to work. I had the, God, the gift of desperation. And at that point I was hopeless. I thought, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna fucking die here. I know I'm gonna die, right? This is the last chance to learn. There was a counselor by the name of Nick. He knows who he is, is in this place called Sanctuary Lodge in Essex. And one day I was in this room and we're overlooking this field and he said, come here. And he said, look at that field. Look out there. And he said, mate, I'm telling you, you're a chance. You're a chance. You're a chance to beat addiction. And I said, why? He said, mate, you're so attentive, you're asking all the questions. He said, you're desperate, aren't you? I said, nick, I'm so fucking desperate. This is it for me, you know, and my Point's this, a slither of hope came into my life, a slither of hope. At that moment I thought I'm a chance, right? So I've got a firsthand experience about you need hope, you have to have hope, right in this life.

So why is Gary Stevenson not giving anyone home?

I don't know why he's doing it, but I would say in response to Gary, I'm saying to those people out there, there's someone listening to this podcast right now, young Gary Stevenson in Ilford listening to this podcast now, right? He's been listening to Gary Stevenson and he's listening to us. And I'm saying to that person, if you have a dream and you've got a vision and you want to manifest something, fucking go for it, go for it. Do not listen to Gary, right? This guy out there now, he's sitting in ill foot and he's in, there's somebody, there's some guy or girl, guy or girl out there at the moment listening to this podcast and I'm saying to you, you're going to be a millionaire, you're going to be a fucking multi millionaire, you've got a dream, go for it, right? Do not listen to Gary. I don't know why he does it.

I don't understand if his story is, you know, he's self made, why is he not, why is he telling everyone else that, oh, you can't do what I did, what sort of message is that?

But he's a walking example of that. You can do it, right?

He's telling everyone you can't.

Correct. I don't know why.

Unless you're already rich.

Yeah. And the other.

And if you're rich you should be taxed more.

Yeah.

And he's making an enemy of the rich.

Yeah, well he's. I think there's a lot of blood, I think, listen, I think there's a chip on his shoulder. I.

What is that chip, do you think?

Oh, I think, I think, look, this, you know, putting my counselling hat on a bit. Social conditioning, social influencing. There's the haves where the have nots, they're entitled, they've got the easy street, those young kids that have got the rich fathers, they're going to private school and there's this narrative in his head, they're getting the inside running, they're getting the jobs, you know, we're no chance, you know, we're being left behind. And I think, I bet he's done well. Correct. But he's.

So why doesn't he Just teach people to do what he did.

Don't know.

It does not make any sense to me.

I don't know. I don't know why he does it. And I agree with you. It's a shocking, shocking message to his followers. It's a shocking message.

Okay, so I've. A couple of people on Twitter have wondered if he's being backed maybe by whoever pulls the strings in the government or whatever. I mean, he's blown up out of nowhere. His books, number one for however long, which I think is rare. He seems to be all over the place. Do you think there's someone behind pulling the strings on him?

You know, it's so funny you say that. A really good mate of mine who's very intelligent and he's been around, he saw something I wrote and he said, mate, someone's behind Gary. He whatsapped me. He said, I don't know. He said, I'm gonna do a deep dive. I'm gonna find out. He said, like you. He said, mate, there's something. There's something odd going on here, because.

If you think about it, it's kind of good propaganda for a socialist government.

Well, what he's doing is he's got the us and them. It's divide. It's us and them. So there's rage and there's anger, and that's what he's appealing to. So there's people out there and they go, geez, I'm struggling to put food on table. I'll never get on the property ladder. He's talking directly to those people.

And he's also saying he's making them even more angry. Correct. And he's making them bang on the table, go, yeah, you're right, it's unfair. Tax the rich.

Unbelievable.

But still sit on their ass and do absolutely nothing.

Well, that's, you know, there's that sort of stuff going on. Absolutely. But he is. So he's got the us and them. So when he goes on with Daniel Priestley, who was. I thought was unbelievable, this conversational tennis we're having conversational tennis, right. That's very important. You say something, I say something. You agree or we don't agree? Daniel Priestley was trying to engage with conversational tennis with Gary, but Gary's going for rage. He's going for the emotional, you know, headlines, sound bite, you know, you telling, you telling, you know, that the way you telling to the youngsters that the way it is, entrepreneurship. Right. That's sick. I would say you saying, just give up and don't even have a kid.

Just die if you're bored. Die.

That's sick. That's right. So Gary's all about emotion. The problem Gary's going to have, I believe, is that, look, there is inequality of wealth, right? It's been going on for 50 years. Gary's going. The inequality of wealth, you know, has gotten wider and wider for 50 years.

It's cyclical, it always cyc.

Yeah, but also it's a function of capitalism, surely, you know, like if people get out there, get a good company, have a great idea, make loads of money, they're very energetic, they're hard working, they expand, they go with times, they roll with technology, they build, you know, wealth in all sorts of areas, right? They are going to get wealthier and wealthier and wealthier. There is another set of people who are quite happy to have, you know, just a basic job and they're happy and, you know, they may or may not get onto the property ladder. That wealth is just naturally going to. Wealth inequality is naturally going to get wider. Right? The problem Gary's got, I believe, is that at some stage he's got to sit down and have an adult conversation with people, not talk over people, not be condescending, demeaning, you know, patronizing, rude. Because my father said to me one day, I said to my father one day, walking on the beach a number of years ago, I said to him, you know, the difference, like, okay, difference between intelligence and wisdom is this. Intelligence is that tomatoes are fruit. Wisdom is you don't put a tomato in a fruit salad, right? That's the difference between intelligence and wisdom. So I'm talking. This is wisdom from my father. I said, dad, you know, you never really yelled at me when I was growing up. I said, I knew that, you know, be careful, there's a right. And he said, kent, I've never seen one situation in my life get better once one person starts raising their voice and getting emotional.

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And I thought, fuck me, that's wisdom, right? And that's the problem Gary's got, is that he's raising the issue. Fair enough. Wealth inequality, right? He's raising the issue and his rage and his people debating it and whatever, right?

He's not talking about potential solutions other than just taxing the rich.

Okay? So let's get on with tax the rich.

And he doesn't really understand economics, I don't think.

I think he lost his way because he actually lost clarity of his mind, right? Daniel wasn't biting. He wasn't in fight. Gary wanted to fight. Daniel wasn't fighting, right? Daniel's staying passive and trying to engage him in conversational tennis. Gary didn't like that. He wants to get into. Oh, really? Right. You believe and da, da, da. And his supporters. Yeah, Gary, give it to him. Give it to him. That's where he operates best. Daniel didn't come into it. Gary lost his way. The problem Gary's got is that, okay, let's play this out, right? He wants to tax the rich, okay? He's saying just tax the rich. Okay, so how's the tax the rich? Tax the rich is the government has to rewrite all the tax laws and do some things. I agree with that. Gary says go after big companies that are selling products in various countries, but they're domiciled somewhere else for tax reasons. Go after them, get them. Let's go after the tax havens, right? Let's go after them, right? The mega, mega, mega wealthy. Maybe just raise their tax above 50 million or 100 million a little bit, right? The problem, he's got two things. One, be careful what you wish for. The rich people just leave the country and you don't, you know, a number of rich people leave the country and.

They'Re leaving to Dubai every day.

That's right, Correct.

Every day I've got a new friend or I know someone who's leaving to Dubai.

So there's less people paying tax.

Yeah.

The problem, he's got this government. Right, hold on, hold on, let me finish this, let me finish this. There's potholes in the road. There's potholes in the road in this country. My simple thing is, get a truck, get some dirt, get some tarmac, fill the potholes in a row. That's simple. Right. Gary's thing is the rich got all the money. It's simple, right? Just do it. But you've got a government who can't fill the potholes in the road and you want them to rewrite tax laws and go, no chance. No, no chance.

So I want to jump on a couple of these things. I agree. So if they impose this wealth tax of two and a half percent, which I think is what he's suggesting, that would raise about a day's worth of tax revenue. So you piss off all the rich.

You run the risk of them.

Yeah. The straw that breaks the camel's back, because most of them are nearly gone. I'm nearly gone. I've got a lot of things keeping me here and I'm nearly gone. Push them over the edge, they leave, they go, you. And if you get all that revenue, which you probably won't, because the tax, the rich are probably pretty good at avoiding that.

Well, the government, the government will waste it.

Well, this is the point. Why?

Like, the government will waste it.

Like you said, roads have got potholes. You can't get in the nhs.

NHS is stuff.

The police is screwed.

We need, we need more stability.

Like if you, if I gave you a bucket with a massive hole in it and a tap, what are you going to do? Just keep turning the tap on or are you going to go, wait a minute, let's look at the bucket?

Correct.

That's why I wonder if he's an agent. That's why. And this is a theory. I don't have any facts on this. Some people have been saying it, but that's why I wonder if there's someone pulling the strings behind him. Because surely you look at, if we're generating 1.2 trillion of tax revenue, record levels of tax, record levels of people leaving, wouldn't you go, okay, well, let's look at our expenses first rather than our revenues.

Efficiency. Yeah. Government efficiency. Absolutely.

Like I run a company and, and if I had to, I could shave 20% off the costs. If I had to, I could maybe shave a bit more. I had to, in lockdown, had to shave 50% of the costs. But, you know, with a bit of maneuvering and a couple of hard decisions, I can get 20% off the costs for the government that is 250 billion pounds, 20% more efficient.

There you go, that's it.

My worry is, but they're just saying, he's just saying, tax the rich more.

And even if they say, okay, tax rich more, what's the risk? They leave. Then be careful what you wish for, then there's less tax being paid.

And then what happens to all the working class people? They get taxed more because money's gone away.

And even if they do tax the rich and they do stay, it goes into the government. So you put, like you just said, the bucket. Great example, I like it, a great analogy. You put the money into this totally inefficient behemoth of a dynamic, right? And the first thing they should do is fix the nhs. So you get all the tax from the rich. If you did, it would go in and then you'd say, right, we better do the nhs. Then we gotta get, we need more visibility of police on the streets to control this crime situation. Then there's maybe mental health, there's this, that and the other. At the end of the day, even if you did tax the rich and it went into the government, I think the issue is here, the government government, because I don't think Gary's followers are going to be any, would be any better off.

Well, this is the irony. He's rage baiting them and they're all getting angry and going, yeah, Gary, tax the rich. And if they did this wealth tax, no one of his fans would feel any more material extra benefit. That is in the last 10 years, there's 100,000 more civil servants yet the NHS is worse, the police is worse, crime is worse. So we have these hundred thousand extra jobs, DEI, so diversity, equity and inclusion, salaries in the NHS, a 90 grand a year just to make sure that, you know, that person and that person, that person all got a job instead of picking the best person. So the hole in the buckets got bigger and bigger and bigger and they're just saying, oh, you know, tax the rich.

No, it's crazy. And the other thing as well, the big irony about all of this is that Gary's gonna get wealthier. Gary's go, well, of course he's gonna write another book. He's got 1.1 million on YouTube and all that sort of stuff.

He's gonna sell a million books.

Yeah, he's gonna do all this, right?

So he's gonna make millions on his YouTube channel.

So what do I predict? Gary predicts the wealth inequality to increase, which I don't think is an amazing prediction in the sense that it's gone that way pretty much for 50 years on the back of COVID restructuring of companies, jobs, companies disappearing, jobs, restructuring, AI is coming in great deal of uncertainty around AI and what jobs it's going to take, right? So I can only see that wealth inequality, that disparity increasing. So I think he's going to be right. Okay. But the thing is for Gary, he, his supporters, I reckon my prediction in five years times, I don't think Gary's supporters are going to be any better off unfortunately, due to circumstances. Gary's got to be richer, Gary's going to be wealthier.

So Gary's on the back of it. Gary's going to get richer from all of his followers agreeing with Gary, his followers aren't going to be any richer, but he's going to be richer.

Yeah, I think so. The great irony of it is they're going to all go pay 10 quid for his book. So they're going to be 10 quid lighter. There's one thing that's going to happen, right? And Gary's going to sit there and he's going to be a lot wealthier. It's just, it's ironical in so many areas. And he's. One thing he has done is he stirred the waters. Look, he's raised some issues, okay? He wrote a good book. Do I believe that stuff at Citibank? No, he wrote a good book. I'll give credit where credit's due. Wrote a good book, okay? And then the activist stuff, he's getting a lot of coverage. He's getting a lot of, he's relevant and he's raising these issues. I do not think Gary is the guy that can get the solution done. I don't think he's got the emotional intelligence to sit down, right? And you take Daniel Priestley, right? Very, very intelligent guy, obviously, right? Handled himself well in that situation, okay? Transfer that dynamic into government or whatever. You gotta sit down and negotiate a solution. Think on of a wedge. The thick end of the wedge is that's where Gary's at. We've got this, we got this problem, we got that problem, we got that problem. Right. Conversational tennis should bring you down to a point. And the point is the solution. Gary's nowhere near the point. Nowhere near the solution. He's up in the rage area. He's up in the US and them. The thing he did on Question Time the other day I thought was appalling. What?

Tell us what happened.

Okay, I only saw a snippet. I didn't see the whole thing. I saw a snippet. And basically he said, right, all this money got handed out during COVID And then said to the audience, if all the amount that was given out in Covid, you should all be 20 grand richer. Are any of you 20 grand richer? Of which they all went, no. Stupid question. Right? In the sense of they gave out money during COVID so people could live and survive and companies could survive. So he said, Is anyone 20 grand richer? And they said, no. And he pointed to the panel and said, they all are. And you could see this panel go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Gary wants the us and them.

But that. I mean, that was a loan. That was. Well, that's a loan paid by the taxpayer.

Yeah, that's right.

This is what I mean about does he understand economics? His channel's called Gary's Economics. Didn't he go to Oxford and do economics?

Yeah, I think he knows economics, but I think he's losing his way here.

Does he know economics, though? Because like you, like you just said, these loans are loans. So you don't get richer on loans unless you invest the money and beat the interest you pay on the loan, and then you could get a little bit richer. But most people don't know how to do that. But a government loan, the government doesn't have any money. There is no government funding. It is only taxpayer money. Who pays most of the tax? The rich.

That's it.

So the top 1% paid 29% of the tax revenue. The top 10% pay 60% of the tax revenue. So, no, you shouldn't be richer from a loan. The loan isn't from the government. The loan is from the taxpayer. So the person who's received the 20 grand has essentially paid for it themselves. And actually, most of the tax revenue is from the rich anyway. So when people say tax the rich, we are already taxing the rich 100%.

That's it. Agreed. I totally agree. I totally agree. So, but he's stirring up this. He's stirring up this us and them mentality. The other thing I've got a real exception to is that there are people out there, you know, it's funny, I really don't like the word rich. I just think it's vulgar.

I don't know why. Also, how do you. How do you define it?

Yeah, that's a good point. It's a good point.

Is it 1 million, 5 million, 10 million? I think for tax purposes. As soon as you get over 50, 60 grand into a higher bracket, you're taxed like you're rich. But are you. So. So how do you even impose a wealth tax? How do you even define wealth? And is it liquid? Is it locked in assets? Correct. Is it paper wealth?

Yeah.

Oh, and where were all these champagne socialists screaming when the richest people in the world all have had billions wiped off their net worth recently?

That's right, yeah. No one's gonna look at that.

So how do you even define rich?

So he. He.

Why don't you like the word rich?

Well, I just. I think wealth, I just. I just. I just find it's a bit vulgar. But. But I think wealthy. Wealthy is, you know, wealth is a better way to go. I've lost my thread, by the way. We're talking about wealth, about gay. Oh, that's right. That's what I was gonna say. What I don't really like about it is, Rob, I don't know. I don't know your personal circumstances, how you grew up, whether you grew. I grew up privileged. Not entitled. Privileged to the sense that there's no alcoholism in my family, no drugs, there was no violence. My mum and dad both worked very hard, like, you know, so I. But they gave me. They worked very, very hard to put three boys through private school. Now, all the wealth that I've accumulated is because, mate, I've worked hard. I went and studied. I got a law degree, right? And I was a lawyer in Australia for a bit. Then I didn't like that and I applied for a scholarship to Oxford University. Then I got a job in the City as a money broker for four years. Then a job came up at Citibank. There's a funny story about 12 interviews. I had 12 interviews. Interviews.

A Citibank?

Yeah. And the funny story is on the 12th, they had two sets of six. And on the 12th interview, the funny story is. Well, I hope you think it's funny. On the 12th interview, I noticed that the interviewers would say, have you got any questions for me? And I would say, yeah, I'd ask a question or not. On the 12th interview, I said to this person, they said, have you got any questions for me? And I said, yeah, just One and I could date if I was a female or male. They said, what's your question? I said, is the cleaner anywhere near this office? It was like four o', clock, you know, Thursday afternoon at Citibank. And I said, it's a cleaner anywhere near this office. Nice. It is a cleaner. And they said, why would you ask that question? I said, because with all due respect, I've been interviewed by absolutely everybody else here, Rob. I had to have a go. I had to go out on a limb and I said, look, I'm at Crewe Alexander and you're Manchester United, right? And I want a shot. And I think really by now you, you should know if, you know, I'm gonna be on your team or not. And I got an offer in the mail next day. My point is, I went to Citibank, grateful I went to the bank, grateful I had the golden ticket as a seat to make money that was going to be life changing. So grateful. I come from a small country town. My wealth, I accumulated the lot myself. Nothing from my family, nothing from my mum, nothing from my dad, you know what I mean? Right.

But let me jump in here. It's really important because, you know, we want to help Gary's audience and we're not Gary haters.

Correct.

It's the message we're not liking. But what about if people didn't get put through private school like you did? What about people have got alcoholic parents? What about if they're in the roughest suburbs ever? How can they make a break?

Well, I mean, there's.

Do they just need to die poor like Gary says?

No, no, there's got to be hope. There's got to be hope, you know, I know hip hop. There's plenty of people that we would know who come from, I mean, Daniel Priestley and Stephen Bartlett, I forgot his name. Stephen Bartlett. They both come from humble beginnings, you know, I mean, there's many people who forged their desire.

Yeah, but did they come from broken households?

Probably not, I don't know. But there is a.

You can't do it. You're saying they built wealth themselves. Yeah, but they're self made, that's what you're saying.

Look, there's people who are born into very, very difficult circumstances. Criminality, alcoholism, addiction. Right, but you've gotta look at the.

World can still escape the crime.

Correct. You've got. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? You're gonna use that as an excuse. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying it's Easy, mate. I was a drug addict. I was that far away from dying. You got a choice. Yeah, mate, I went and studied two and a half years, became a counselor.

What you just said there, Ken, you've got to.

You've got a choice, mate, and there's hope. You've got to have a go. There's people, there's people out there who are multi, multi, multi millionaires, right, who've come from nothing, have come from broken families, have come from alcoholism. But part of that is forging their resilience and their strength and their desperation to get out of it. Actually, some of that stuff is the making of them. It's very, very unfortunate. I talk about life, lottery. Sometimes you, mate, you've got no choice about the family you're born into. That's the truth. Sometimes you're born into a family where you're going to have more opportunity than others, but you've got to have hope.

Yeah.

If you're out there listening, do not give up. Don't give up. Get up off the deck. Keep going.

Okay, so as someone who's made tens, if not hundreds of millions trading, how can someone start to make money? Give us a few tips on breaking the poverty cycle and starting to get a good job or make some money.

Okay, the first thing I would. I'd be listening to get as much, you know, education, knowledge is. Knowledge is key. Right.

Not Gary Stevenson, though.

Yeah, well, well, yeah, I mean, okay, so.

So basically, listen to people who've made.

Money, Steve Bart, listen to Daniel Priestley. Increase your knowledge. The one thing that's very, very interesting going forward is, right, okay, I, you know, I'm 60, so I arrive in, in 1991, I arrive in London to play for harlequins. That's why I came over. Came here to play rugby and get a job. But I came over initially, that was a big driving thing to play for harlequins, right? And so back then, in the early 90s, I was like talking to people. What do you do? I'm up in the City. What goes on in the City? Finance. How much do you get paid? Fucking hell. That's all right, you know, 50,000 pound, 75,000. 30 years ago. 30 years ago. Good start, right? So I said, how do I get into this thing called the City? So I went up and I interviewed and I went to this money broking. So what's my point? Follow the money. Follow the breadcrumbs. Where are we going here?

Follow the money, right?

Follow the money. The money's in Technology. The money's going towards AI. I don't know how that AI stuff's gonna go, by the way, but the money's in technology. Anything around technology seems to be the go. The other thing as well is that, you know, it's an interesting one. I sit here and go, jesus, Tradies seem to be making a lot of money at the moment. A trade, you know, the whole thing about a trade. You can buy a house, do it up, make a bit of money, buy another house, et cetera, et cetera. So work out. I'd say to people, okay, when I went into Narcotics Anonymous as a drug addict, I'd say to people, I run into a guy, what's your clean time, mate? Five years clean time. My question is, how'd you do it? How did you get clean time?

So you find someone who's got the result, correct. So you find an entre. Sorry, you find an entrepreneur.

How did you do it?

How did you do it?

How'd you do it?

And you follow the same steps.

Well, you follow the trends, you follow the breadcrumbs, follow that. So work out. You gotta make a decision. So when I arrived in the 90s, it was clearly the financial industry in the city was on fire. There's a ton of money up there in the 90s, a ton of money, right? And I jumped on the bandwagon, right?

And now it might be AI or it might be AI.

It might be AI technology. It might be. I don't know, it might be property development, something like. I got. I do, I mentor a lot of guys and counselling and whatever. But guys in rugby clubs, they go, oh, you know, I'm trying to get a job. I said, mate, after a game, go into the bar, right, and start asking some questions about who are the wealthiest guys in the bar. Yeah, just go, who's he? Oh, mate, he's got a company that's worth 50 million quid. That bloke's got a company worth 10. That bloke there's Trader, Blah Blah Tradie. That guy's up in the City, mate, Go and ask questions. Get on the front foot and ask them where they think, you know, society's going. Listen, you go up some. Listen, mate, 24 years old, I've got a degree out of, you know, but university, wherever or something, or whatever, right? I've got a 2:1, which is a going rate, you know, I got a 2:1, maybe a 2:2 if you're honours. Well, you're really in the race. And then work out, say, what advice have you got for me? As you're 50 and you're a multimillionaire, what advice have you got to me for me at 23? What, where should I be? Where should I be, you know, channeling my direction of employment, ask those sorts of questions and then, because they're the people who are going to, they will have made money and go, mate, listen, I made a lot of money out of this, but this is starting to fall away. This is not the future. Yeah, you know, technology, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you've got to ask questions. And education, Rob, education. Just, just keep doing whatever your interest is in, you know, whether it's finance, whether it's. Whether it's technology, whether it's AI. Get in, stay ahead of the curve, get on the curve, increase your knowledge, increase your contacts, right? Without a shadow of a doubt.

Yeah.

And do not give up.

So how long did you work for Citibank? 18 years. Right, let's work out in your head, how much money did you make for the bank in 18 years?

It's really interesting, I think about that the other day, so I reckon, I'm guessing somewhere in the region of. I reckon it's around 150. 150 million. Wow.

I reckon you made 150 million?

I think so. Around that sort of level. But, you know, there's, you know, you look at those numbers and go, that's the bank. You got to remember, that's the bank's money. And then I get a X percentage of that and then 50% of that goes in, funnily enough, tax.

Yeah.

I was sitting there one day. I'll come back to that in a second. About, about how much money you made for the bank and all that. I was sitting there one day and I had a. I had a. A conscience crisis. I got. I got paid like a million bucks bonus, right, or something. And I said to one of, Stuart Cameron, good mate of mine, and I said to him, I said, I don't fucking get this. He said, what's the matter? He said, how much did you get? I said, just between you and me, million bucks sort of thing, I've got to pay tax. And I said, and I said, I said, mate, we're not, we're not, we're not saving lives here, you know, we're punting, we're market making, you know, okay, the bank employs us to do that. I get that. I said, but we're not educating children. No one on this point to the person on this floor, 300400 people, salespeople and traders. I said, point to the person on this floor who's done brain surgery. And he goes, mate, you are making a massive contribution to society. I said, what's that? He said, mate, you're paying £250,000 in tax this year. Right. And that's what we do. That's where we go back to Gary and what he's talking about. Mate, we pay a lot of tax. You start taking those people out of society, go to Dubai. The Kent Brays, who back in the day were contributing 250 grand a year in tax to society.

500 grand in that bonus. Half of a million pound bonus, Correct?

That's right. And so, mate, you then, they're in Dubai. Let's relocate all these traders to Dubai, which is happening.

Right, right.

So you've got to be very, very careful.

This is interesting because what Daniel Priestley said to me, because I had him on the show straight after, he's been a friend for 20 years, he said, you know what, these traders, they're not really that valuable to society. Kind of what you were saying, you know, they're not really producing anything, they're not building anything. Which I think you acknowledge is true. Yes, but you are, because you're contributing all this tax revenue.

Correct.

So that's an interesting look. And the reason I wanted to, I guess, highlight what you said there is because I think what we need to stop doing is making the hate divide wider between the rich and the poor as well as the wealth divide.

I agree.

And I just think that rich people pay a lot in tax. They may have got their company overseas and may. They may be paying 4% corp tax, but they're paying. They're charging VAT on everything they sell. That's 20%. They're paying business rates. Business rates are really high. They're paying national insurance and all the staff, which is 15% now. So when people say the rich don't pay any tax, that is nonsense. That is inaccurate. They are generating most of the tax revenue.

But can I just say one thing on that?

Yeah, please. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. One thing on that.

Remind me to come back to the value proposition of countries. But you go, go on, you're the guest.

I don't think we applaud enough. So Gary. Gary's painting the rich wealthy as. It's their fault, it's evil, it's there, it's wrong.

Like they're hoarding, they're not contributing, they're.

Hoarding, they're not contributing and all that sort of stuff. And during. During COVID who do you think got the money? Where'd you think all that money goes? He leaves these questions hanging out. Well, it went to the rich. Well, if you're sitting at home, you got a bit of money and you pay on Amazon and you know, because you want to shop at home. And Jeff Bezos makes a load of money. Well, mate, that's just the way it goes. He thought of Amazon, he came up.

With this great idea and he took all the risk and he probably put his mortgage on the line. Most entrepreneurs put their own mortgage on the line.

This is my point. I don't know anyone who's made a ton of money without risk and without stress. I mean, listen, I ended up at City Mary. I semi retired at 49, then I sort of retired when I went to rehab sort of thing then. And now I'm semi retired again. But, you know, so my time in the City, it's. The contribution was I became a drug addict. Anyone who's made any money has stressed there will be consequences for, you know, not seeing much of their kids, maybe divorce, et cetera, et cetera. They'll go through tough times. There'll be ebbs and flows. They'll be up against it and thinking, you know what? I don't know if we're going to fucking survive this year. You know, it's hard and it's not easy. Then there's lockdown and everything that comes with that. What I don't think in this painting the wealthy is like this entitled, easy. They got it easy. They came from their own. They came from generation, family wealth. What he's not acknowledging is the people who started with nothing. Nothing and their rise to the top should be applauded. It should be applauded and acknowledged. You're going to say something about the country.

Yeah. So yes, thank you for that part. Kentucky. So all this stuff about the rich paying no tax. Well, one is not true. They pay vat. They still do pay some corporation tax. They pay national insurance, they pay business rates, they pay pension contributions. They employ all the people. It was somewhat amusing. Labor said that, you know, they are increasing the wages of 1.5 million people. No, they're not. The employers are. Because labor don't generate any money. The employers do. And they're taking all the credit. So this is what pisses me off, is the propaganda. If I'm wrong, I will hold my hands up and anyone can correct me. I go into my comments and occasionally I'm corrected. But we need to get the right information out there. So all the millionaires that are leaving, they're not leaving because they're paying no tax. Because if they're paying no tax, they wouldn't leave, they would stay. They're leaving because they can pay less tax in Dubai. So the fault is the UK government for not doing a deal with Facebook and Amazon because Donald Trump would do a fucking deal with them when he gets into power, he has them all around and he does a deal with them. And fucking labor couldn't, can't, couldn't do a deal with anyone. So it's our government's fault that we're losing all the millionaires and billionaires. We just lost the UK's richest man, Lakshmi Mittal, who's leaving. So we're, we're losing the. I, I worked out he's done trillions in turnover in his whole 30 odd year career in the UK and in the next 30 years we're losing all that.

Yeah.

So the fault is not the rich. The rich are always going to go to the place with the restaurant. You're going to go to the place that offers the best value for money when you eat your food. And a billionaire is going to go, which country offers me the best value for money? And UK must be right down there now. Whereas if we started having some tax breaks and maybe even did a deal that said, look, don't put your country in Ireland or, you know, Luxembourg, Luxembourg or wherever you bring it to the UK, we want some. Can we have 6%? Can we have 7%? All right, let's strike a deal at 7%. We'll give this break, that break. You bring all your companies, your thousands of staff and jobs, you do all the building and development. What do you think about that?

Well, I think that one thing that, I mean that Daniel Priestley debate with Gary, which wasn't really a debate, obviously I learned a lot from Daniel Priestley just in that one hour I thought some of the stuff he was talking about, he said, look, you know, Silicon Valley and the seven biggest companies which grew out of Silicon Valley. And he said that's the template now. They've got a sort of monopoly on, believe you're saying is they've got a monopoly on the future of technology into AI over there and they're just generating a ton of money and as a result a ton of tax is being paid in the US and why can't.

We do the same in the uk?

So what he's saying is, and I thought it was a very, very good point, Gary is sort of like to some extent saying, look, you know, Gary said, if you're saying to the average person on the street out there who's 20 years old or 18 years old or something, be an entrepreneur. That's the way to go. Gary's saying, that's sick. And I understand what Gary's saying, that not all businesses are successful and there is a risk involved. But I thought he was missing the point. I think what Daniel Priestley was saying is we want bright minds in this country. We want bright minds. We want to be at the forefront of technology, we want to be at the forefront of AI. We want to bring companies in and incubate companies here and grow companies and have a, you know, companies that are sort of running off each other, you know, in an intellectual property basis. And then that's going to grow an industry and that industry's gonna make a lot of money and that industry's gonna be taxed and it's gonna. It's gonna grow jobs.

But fill all the empty shops.

That's right. But at the moment, what I believe he was saying was, he was saying there's no great appetite for the government to back an entrepreneur to back growing businesses. There's no great appetite.

Who was saying that?

Daniel Priestley was saying that he believes that. I believe that's what he was saying.

Maybe I got it wrong because labor, essentially socialist.

Well, yeah, yeah, possibly, if you want to get down to the sharp end of politics. But. And I believe what he was saying was true about. It comes down to, again, it comes back to hope and giving people confidence that if you want to start a business, you know, it should be supported like, you know, well, Dubai, right.

You go to Dubai. Dubai are running Facebook and Instagram ads and they're saying for Dh9,000, which is about two grand UK, you can get your lifetime business visa.

Yeah.

You can have a co working space.

Here we go now.

Now there'll be more costs, but basically the. The basic setups. 2,000quid co working space, come and pay 5% VAT, 9% corp. Yeah. And what are in the UK? 20 VAT, 25. Corporation tax 39, income tax 15. National Insurance. Why are you gonna stay?

I don't know if Dubai is the best example to use because obviously it's a different system and different, you know, the way that the wealth over there and how they run the country, et cetera, et cetera. But what I do agree with is that there's got to be a support or an attractiveness to running businesses. Running businesses, some support and attractiveness to running businesses in the UK as opposed to all the stuff that's being offered elsewhere. It seems like at the moment people are leaving. You know, as you were saying, and I don't know, I mean, I don't think the government is supporting that thought process about where are we going to be in five years time, where are we going to be in 10 years time, what's going to be the driver? It's going to be all technology based. It's going to be all technology based and AI. Okay. And I think that, that if that's the future, we need to be heading in that direction and supporting businesses in that direction. But at the moment it seems to be a lack of support. Yeah.

So as a former city trader who controls the world's money.

Oh, listen, who knows? I don't know. I mean, you know, I think, I think I know who. I know who. I know who controls the room. The guy with his hair on fire controls the room. The craziest person controls the room. Donald Trump controls the room. And that's worrying. That sort of stuff is very, very worrying. But the richest, there's no two ways about it. There would definitely be economic sway by the richest companies in the world. The richest people in the world, no two ways about that. Because they'd be aligned with the governments, et cetera, et cetera, which again I don't agree with. I think Daniel Fresh was saying about you got to break down some of these digital companies break down and sort of disperse the ownership or the. I can't remember what he said, but it was about a danger of being too much power and too much wealth in the hand with too few 100%.

And that's not the fault of the rich, that's the fault of the management of governments. See, this is what people don't understand. We have governments, governments control countries. So if you have big companies with monopoly, it means you didn't run antitrust and anti monopoly policy properly. If there are a load of rich people leaving, it's because the governments aren't making it attractive for them. If you've got massive national debt, it's because governments have been overspending or over borrowing. This is again, I don't want to go, I'm going to go back to it. Why I'm suspicious about Gary Stevenson and who's behind him because his message is distracting away from who I believe is really responsible and that is government. The government is responsible.

Well, he's going to have to get down. If he wants to make change. And this is where I think Gary's, you know, going to have problems is if he wants. I think he's been fantastic in. Forget about all that Citibank stuff and greatest trader in the world. It's just not right. It's rubbish, it's garbage. But he's raised these issues. He's given them a spotlight with, to some extent. We've known they've been there, but he's really raised the issue. He's got a bit of us and them going on. That's creating rage and that is bringing. That's why, you know, you and I connected, et cetera, et cetera. Right. The issue he's got is how does he get it done? Will he get it done? I don't think he'll get it done. I don't think he'll get it done. Not because of lack of energy on his part. He'll try to get it done, but I don't think the government is in any place to get it done.

When you say he'll try and get it done, all I can see he wants to do is have a wealth tax.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

What else is he trying to get done? Can.

No.

Can you see anything?

No, I don't know. He's. That's what he's trying to get done and I don't think it will get done now.

All right, then, I think we're done. On that note, I think we've had a good conversation, actually. I will ask you one more. Do you think the markets are going to crash?

I think this, I mean, with Trump involved, it's extremely concerning because it's just tit for tat, you know. You know, these tariffs. China's come back now, I think with 34 and a half percent tariff, you know, tax in relation, in retaliation to the U.S. i just think, I don't think he knows exactly what he's doing.

And these just negotiation ploys, though. He seems to love to do a deal.

Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, he makes things move.

Yeah, yeah, I'd listen. I don't. I stay right out of politics these days.

Okay, but what, okay, so what about the markets then? Do you think that we're gonna.

It's gonna be very, very, very, very volatile, extremely volatile. And, and you know, things like, you know, it's interesting about Bitcoin and all that sort of stuff. Some of this stuff's going to be. What do they say? You'll only, you know, when, when Interest rates rise and the tide goes out, then you'd see, then you'll work out who's swimming naked. Yeah, So I think it's going to be a very, very volatile situation. I've got to be honest. My truth is that I have.

Look, surely as a trader, you love volatility, don't you?

Well, I don't trade anymore, right. I don't trade at all anymore. I'm out of that game. As I said, these days I'm a counsellor and a mentor. I just help, you know, young professional guys navigate not so much their business world, but largely ensuring that they are presenting as the best version of themselves, you know, going forward in family and business and all that sort of stuff. So mate with the markets. I stay right away. What I will say is this. I think it's very, very turbulent road ahead. Very, very volatile. Because I think there's a great deal. I keep coming back to it. I think, you know, we got the hunter gatherer mentality, which is, is there enough, you know, is there going to be enough water in the rivers next season? Is there enough meat on the prairie sort of thing? So we've always got a slightly negative bias. And the negative bias at the moment is, where are we going as a society? Like, where are we going? What is the effect that AI is going to have? And it's uncertainty. Now some people will say it's going to be a great thing. It may be a job creator and I hope that they are true, that is right. But the other side of the coin, a number of jobs are going to disappear. People will. I see a great deal of uncertainty. What uncertainty brings is fear. What fear brings is rage.

But what uncertainty can bring is opportunity.

100%. There's some people out there and that's why I say to young people, get on this AI stuff, get on this technology stuff. See, get, you know, follow the breadcrumbs, get a directional travel on that. Because that is going to be an enormous contributor to our future. I don't know if it's going to be positive or negative, but it's going to be enormous contributor.

Okay, final question then. As someone who's done more than 150 million of profit and trades for your bank, does money make you happy?

Well, my story would say not. Because when I went into rehab and, you know, I was 49 years old, I was 10 stone, I had four properties here in the UK. I had four properties on the Sunshine coast in Queensland, which is a really nice area, made pension schemes, superannuation Schemes, cash, shares, whatever. I was absolutely financially secure and I sat in a rehab absolutely crying my eyes out. You know, I was broken with, broken, absolutely crushed on the back of cocaine use. But prior to the cocaine use, I think what I. Society tells us, society sells us something, right? This is what sells us. Get a good education, get a degree, get a really good job, a high paying job or a company or whatever, make a ton of money, you'll be happy, right? And that was not my experience. What my experience now is I'm in the lowest paid vocation I've ever had in my life and is the most fulfilling by so far. It's unbelievable. I just lucked out and falling into something on the back of something absolutely horrendous, which was going to kill me. I didn't care if I lived or died when I sat in that rehab. I thought, I don't care if I wake, I don't care if I wake up tomorrow. It'd be actually in some ways better if I didn't from that. Here we go. And this is the thing about hope and getting back off the deck. Get up, get your shoulders back, lean into the breeze, go forward one step at a time. I went and studied two and a half years. I didn't chase the money, mate. I had my shot. You know, you're, I think we said before, you're about 20 years younger than me, right? You're in the middle of it.

Thank you. But only 14 years younger than you. You're 60, right?

Absolutely.

I'm 46, but I like that.

But you're having a shot, you know, you, you know, you know, I always say to people, debt's a great motivator. Motivator. Debt's a really good motivator, you know what I mean? And when you go for it, right, and you got that energy and you're in your 40s, I say to you, mate, make every post a winner. Yeah, keep going, keep going. I'm 60. I'm looking forward about. Just finish off my private school education, my kids, and then make sure I've got enough money to be able to travel and do what I want to do later in life. And my thing is about helping people. As I said, last paid vacation I've ever had in my life, the most fulfilling. Wow.

All right, then I've got one more. On reflection, is Gary Stevenson a net positive or a net negative for society?

Rob, mate, Listen, this is, this is a poor response, I think net, net. When it's all said and done, it's just Parody. It's parody.

Choose one. Come on. Give us a 51. 49. Net. Negative or positive?

If I said. No, listen, if I was going to say 51 or 49, I'd say 51. Positive only in the sense of. I hope, I really hope that somehow government changes on the back of this volatility. Not volatility, this rage of people and that the government gets a message and some manner, shape or form. Do I think that's gonna happen? No, not by taxing the rich. By making. I don't know. Well, possibly by trying to ch. Not so much tax the risk. When I say tax. Let's just. Let's just be clear on something, right? I don't think it's necessarily about taxing the rich more. I think it's about chasing companies and making like the, you know, the. The Googles and the Amazon companies, the big companies and getting more out of them. It's about, you know, no hiding of money, you know, tax havens and all that sort of stuff. I'd be going after. Let's change it. Let's change the narrative.

Super rich. Surely it's the superiority. Super rich or the big corporations and just.

Absolutely. The big corporations absolutely make this business about. We're going to have. We're online, so you can access us online in the UK and we pay no tax or very, very little tax. That's bullshit.

Yeah, that is.

That's fucking wrong. Yeah, that's wrong.

And what pisses me off about this sort of rich narrative is all these smart entrepreneurs and all these small business owners are getting lumped into this rich category. I agree that if they're generating trillions of revenue in this country, they should be paying a fair amount of tax.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Thank you very much, Rob, Very much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

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