Richard Farleigh | How to Survive Modern Business

Richard, can you still make money in the UK with everything that's going on right now?

I think it's getting harder. You know, I'm a bit almost depressed about the startup world in the uk, to be blunt. Starting a business now is difficult. It's almost like it's polarizing the world. You've got the US and China. The US has obviously got what I call billionaire money and the China has got government money and it's almost like leaving China out for a moment. But if you go to lunch in the US and you've got a good idea in some tech business or anything that was going to require money, you can do it over lunch. You know, there's billionaires with their network and their money and they'll, you know, might write a check for 20 million, let's just say a tech company or something and going to AI somewhere, you know, promising space, they'll write a check for 20 million over lunch, give or take, you know, and then off you go. And they'll say, don't worry about making a profit, you know, just get market share, just grab market share. And I've termed this expression infinite startups because they're startups but they're infinite. They don't have to worry about getting a profit. So with this billionaire money looking for a market share, they go off. In the UK if you start exactly the same business and you're trying to raise 5 million, it's a nightmare. I've had different companies and you can go through 100 meetings and they want to see the business plan obviously, but they, you know, if you're not making profits within three or four years, they lose interest, then you're on another round of funding and as someone who starts businesses, the valuation doesn't go up. So, you know, you're hammered on that first 5 million, that's not a pleasant experience. That's why people don't want to do the first one.

Right.

And you're also under pressure to make, to make money. And so it's gotten worse and worse and worse. So, you know, I've seen that now with companies I'm involved with those companies I'm talking to. Raising money in the UK is just becoming impossible for medium sized businesses. And there was something I think had published in the newspapers a couple of weeks ago about funding for startups medium sized, you know, 20 to 100 people sort of thing has fallen to a six year low. It's falling now. I bet that's not falling in the US and the uk, Sorry, China, where They've got government money, so they'll direct money in different ways through private enterprise, you know, quasi private enterprise. They'll direct money to the right place to compete in semiconductors or in software or anything like that. Whereas in the UK and probably other parts of Europe, you're in this middle bit, which is an unhappy space to be. So I'm actually finding it really pessimistic at the moment. And that's nothing to do with the government really changes in really. Really, you know, they could toss some bones, you know, because the upside, I don't know where we are now. 22 questions. The upside? Oh, yeah. The upside is it. Is that, Is that the cost of, you know, the cost of labor, the cost of smart people here, you know, professional people. It has, has. It has, is a lot lower than, say, in the us. So if you want to hire a data scientist, I'm just focusing on tech, but it's the same across a lot of industries. You want to hire a data scientist, for example. It's a lot cheaper in the UK than it is in the us, almost to a factor of a half. So that might start to swing things in the right way, but that's only then you're sort of competing like, Like a, Almost like a, like being an Asian country. You're competing on price, not on the environment, not on, not on the.

You know, because you want the best, don't you? Really? You want the quality, you want the best.

Yeah, well, so you might find, you know, you might find, you know, because there's not a lot of stuff going on here at the moment, you might find US companies start to do things here because of the cost advantage. But in terms of funding, which is a big part of starting a business, it always takes longer and costs more to get it going. In terms of funding, the UK is in an unhappy space. So. Okay. Sorry to start with such a negative.

I think it's good to be realistic because we can look at opportunities once we know where we're really at. So I'd like to find out why. I've been an entrepreneur for 20 years and I've definitely found it harder, Harder to harder hire good staff who really are career focused as opposed to wellbeing and work from home focused. I found a big shift there, found a major shift. And you can't just blame labor on this. They haven't been in that long. And conservatives don't really have the brand that they had. Low tax, supposed to be good for business and enterprise, but definitely over the last 10 years more and more tax increases, national insurance, for example. That increase cost me 100 grand in the 100 staff that I have. But that wasn't a thing, it was just another excuse to stick a tax in under the radar. So what are the reasons that the UK are not the hub for business and entrepreneurship? Is it lack of talent? Is it being suppressed by maybe a more socialist government? Is there a disdain for entrepreneurs in the UK by our government? What's going on?

I think it could be all those things, you know, as much as I do. I think, you know, when we call it like the previous government, the Conservative government, I mean, are they Conservative, were they conservative? You know, all the little things like, you know, tax breaks, you know, they were tightened up, you know, benefits for managers, you know, tax option schemes, anything incentive schemes, SEIs, EIS, things like, they're all, you know, and even getting, you know, I don't think the audience are familiar, but they're just breaks that you get for starting a business. And the accepted band of like 1 in 10 startups working may be optimistic.

So you think it's even less.

It might be less now in the UK.

It might be 1 in 20, 1.

In 50 in the UK.

So we have to have some reward for that risk.

Yeah. So you have to take, you're taking a bet, you know, and it's a long term bet and it's highly illiquid. You know, you put in £10,000, £100,000, a million pounds, whatever you're putting into a startup, you've got no liquidity, so you're not going to get that back in a hurry where if you buy shares in Google, you know, you can get them back, you know, so you've got no liquidity and you've got that terrible odds. So all those things that change the odds, you know, like tax breaks and things like that have a big effect. And you know, if you can't motivate managers by giving them, you know, I've got a company, you know, or I know about a company where their prices fall and they've got the managers, you've got to keep them motivated but their share price has fallen. But changing that option scheme, you know, just things like, nothing is easy, it's not like, oh, we really want you to do that, you know, here's some. And getting, you know, when you've got a company which is doing R and D, you get a tax credit.

I'm shutting that out though.

Yeah, well, you get a tax credit which can be quite significant. So if You've got a tech company or, you know, software company. You get a lot of that back from the government a year later. Yeah, because you paid tax on R and D, which is fine. But getting that back in a hurry and getting that back and without, without some inquiry, you can't put it in your business plan, say, okay, we're going to get, we're going to get that hundreds of thousands back, or 10, whatever the number is, we're going to get that back in February. It may not come. You know, it's just things like that. There's nothing like, oh, we really want you to do this, you know, we really want you to. So. And there's no new tax breaks and the old ones has sort of been chipping away at even tax deductions. You know, if you invest in a bunch of things and you lose money before you make it, you know, you're not going to get your money back on the ones, you know. Yeah, you know, I mean, there's stuff like that and income, you know, take putting money in company, taking it out, you know, if you put. It's just not easy. There's nothing. You don't feel like you're in Singapore, for example.

So I'm going to ask you this, why are you still here? Because now get this, you probably know this, but every year since lockdown, double the number of millionaires have left the uk. Entrepreneurs are leaving in their droves. You know, most of my friends, if not all, are entrepreneurs and many of them are at the 20 to 50 million level, but many of them are at the billion level. And two of my friends have recently just left who are billionaires. And everyone I talk to, they're either on the way out or they're planning their way out. So one, why are you still here? And two, surely we've got to change this. I love business. You're a champion for business. You were on Dragon's Den, you were like the face of entrepreneurship. And it's seems so sad for me that this is going on.

It is. And I'm the same as you. I know people who are leaving, you know, for different reasons, for the, you know, for the tax reasons, for, you know, inheritance tax in Australia. I'm Australian, in case you didn't pick up my lovely accent. You know, there's no inheritance tax. You know, that's one reason I've told my kids, if I get sick, you know, look, not too good. Just get me on a plane to Sydney as fast as you can, try to get me to die. In Sydney, you know, but you know, there's inheritance tax, you know, even buying and selling a home, you know, like, you know, I live in a substantial, you know, nice home, I'm a successful guy. But to buy and sell it, to downsize, you know, there's 10%, the government just to move. That's so I'm not gonna sell it, it's just. Anyway, to answer your question, yeah I know people who are, who are leaving the same as you. Some are Jewish people, friends of mine who live in North London and they don't feel it's very friendly here and.

They'Ve probably paid tens or hundreds of millions in taxes.

He started company went to a billion back in 2000.

A billion.

A billion. When a billion was a billion, still a billion. But yeah, you know, but he, you know, he started companies, extremely successful. Left 16, it's left school at 16. Extremely smart and as you know. But he's leaving with his family because he doesn't feel the tax environment and everything here is friendly. But also he's Jewish and he doesn't feel it's a friendly. But let's not get into that. And then I've got other friends who are leaving because of the non dorm thing. But you know, I used to be.

Shutting that down and making that harder to do.

Yeah. And you know, and we've got, you know, the inequality of wealth has grown so there's no doubt that people who are worse off are more worse off relatively relative to the best off.

But it's not the entrepreneur's soul, is it?

No, but, so that's a problem. Right, so you can understand, you know, I would have, if I used to say to, you know, my kids, if I was, if I was a young lawyer living in Liverpool, you know, from a working class family and I wonder, I wouldn't be able to live in London, you know, so I can understand that sentiment. I can understand the sentiment of wanting to level things up. But on the other hand, something like non doms, it's almost like you pencil off this area in London, we call it Mayfair or wherever you want to call it, Knightsbridge, Pencil that off. Don't worry about anyone. They're not us but they pay a huge amount of vat. They pay, they bring in jobs, let them go and buy expensive handbags. Let them, you know, let them live here, let them buy that house for 20 million because 2 million goes in and that pays for a lot of the rest of us, that pays for a lot of hospitals, a lot of schools. Let's just drop the envy on that because, and I know it looks bad, but you're encouraging wealthy foreigners and ironically, while the UK is killing off the non dom thing and I'm no longer a non dom here, so I'm not speaking for myself, but for other countries like Italy, Portugal, you know, Malta, you know, they're, they're encouraging, they're doing, introducing virtually the non dom scheme. So you got to think the UK's had this scheme for, for tens, you know, I don't know, 50 years, however long, right? And that's attracted a lot of people and now they're turning it off. Well, all the other countries are turning it on. You got to think, hang on. And we're not competing. You're not giving breaks to the, to an English person. But you know, Brit, a Brit, you're attracting wealthy foreigners. Now I'm a wealthy foreigner, right, but, but, but why not attract those people, you know? And also you just gotta suck up, okay? It might be distasteful, them driving a Ferrari around night spritz or whatever, but on the other hand they probably spend hundreds of thousands a year, pay a lot of vat. Maybe they create jobs. If they're entrepreneurs, they are creating jobs. So you just allow that to happen. Let's get the cake bigger. I don't want to talk like a classic Tory, but let's get the cake bigger, particularly from foreigners. So the whole non dom thing and scaring people away I think is a mistake. And if other countries are bringing it in, there's bring it in, find other ways to level up the wealth inequality. And the other thing is I used to be an economist. I was a central bank economist, the Reserve bank, like the bank of England here in Australia. So that's where I started. And I've never seen any analysis here. All the analysis is if we hit entrepreneurs and we introduce taxes and non doms, how much is it going to cost when those people leave? All we hear about, as you mentioned and I've been mentioning is people leaving, right? But where's the analysis of the people who came who aren't coming? Where's the opportunity cost? So I was living in Monaco as one does, right? I'm a working class kid. I grew up in a, you know, went through a orphanage and you know, care home. So I'm, you know, I'm not ashamed to admit, you know, that I've worked hard and made money, right? But so I was living in Monaco and I came here, you know, as part of the non dom thing originally. And I started a hundred businesses. Now, if I'd have been there now, I wouldn't come to the uk. So the treasury might be doing the numbers. Oh, it's okay. If 50 millionaires leave, that's okay. But what about the hundred who are gonna come in? So if the price is not 50 leaving, the price is 150. You see what I'm saying? I do see the opportunity cost. What you're missing out on is all those people. I don't know any, you know, do you know any people moving here?

No.

Are there any entrepreneurs moving here? So that's what you. So I know myself.

I mean, online communities with global entrepreneurs. No one's talking about coming to the uk.

So that's, you know, the place is closed.

Yeah, the place is closed. And then add to that things like the terrible public services that used to be good and the crime and the lack of convictions in central London. You add that to the mix.

Yeah.

This really makes me sad.

Well, you know, you know, you ask, you know, I love London. You know, my, my two favorite. I'm from, you know, I grew up in Sydney. My two favorite cities in the world are Sydney and London, you know, and for five you five good things for Sydney, five amazing things for London. I love London. It's like a New York, but it's low rise, you know, it doesn't. You're not honking taxis all night long like you got in Manhattan. You know, you can see the sun, there's lots of park area, the people are lovely. I love English people. Good banter with the Aussies, you know, sports culture, you know, the food is now, now good, you know, like, you know, and I just love being here, so I really am reluctant to move. And it's not, you know, life isn't all about money. But if I was focused purely on money and business opportunities, I'd probably go the US or somewhere else. Even Portug, you know. Wow. So that's a sad thing for the uk.

So I do want to talk about opportunity. No, no, no. This, I, I raised it. It's not on you, because I'm not going to leave yet. And we've had a pretty good year in business, although we had to work twice as hard for it. But also, do you remember when people from overseas could come to the UK and there'd be no VAT on goods they would buy and then bang, they slapped the VAT on. So we've stopped all the tourism and, you know, aren't we like supposed to be one of the biggest tourist nations in the world and you know, the. Our monarchy and how that was a great brand for the world and now that's in a complete mess. So one more final statement on what do we need to do to turn the UK around?

It is tough. You know, first, and also, excuse me, I think, I think, you know, there were some GDP numbers the other day and they're talking about growth didn't go up. Right. And I was, I mentioned I was an economist before.

Right.

And growth didn't go up much. Right. But I'd love to see the growth per person. Right. So it's the growth, it's not adjusted.

No, you've got to find out how many people there are actually here because I imagine they're suppressing the.

Yeah. So in ratio it can feel worse off even if GDP goes up, even if total, the size of the cake goes up, if there's more people and more demand for housing and others anyway.

That'S the relevant metric, is it? So is it per capita, you're saying?

Yeah, I'm saying per capita, yeah. So productivity, you know, the output per person. Yeah. I don't want to sound too techy, you know, economy, but, but, you know, the productivity is not great. So why hasn't that in an era where you've got AI now, but before that you had the tech explosion. I mean, in terms of capability, you know, why isn't the, the output per person going up, you know, something cultural? I don't know, there's something, you know, and I don't know if working from home is. That's going to be another hit to it. I don't know, you know, can people.

Be productive working at home? Like the same. In the office I saw the ex head of Google, he basically said you miss promotion opportunities when you work from home. I've never really been a mega fan of work from home. Can you have the culture, the dynamism, the promotion opportunities when you work from home?

Well, you know, I, you know, I used to run a, you know, before I got in business, I was an investment. I was an economist, then an investment banker, you know, so I ran a trading area and you know, half of it, you know, I'd learn from people more junior, junior to me. But half it's by the coffee thing or just going out for lunch or, you know, and you know, you have someone sitting next to me, they'd ask me questions, you know, but they probably wouldn't phone me up and ask me a question, but I'll just have a go at that or I'll talk. What are you up to? You know, there's the value of that, I just think is, you know, I guess on the other hand, and there's always, you know, if there's a commute cost and it's expensive here to get around on a train and you know, the commute cost, if you save that time and you save the time, then maybe, maybe there's a balance. You know, if you take. Don't work Fridays, but you're saving two hours commute and you're saving that amount of money or, you know, and you, and you do put the effort in. As long as there's enough cultural exchange, if you've got four days a week, maybe you can still get your promotion, you can still get your, your exchange of ideas and you save a bit of money by not coming in. I don't know. I don't know. Do you think people work when they're at home?

I think we all need accountability. And I was having a chat with one of my staff members who kind of thought that, you know, I had it easier because I work for myself. And I said, no, no, I'm accountable to my business partner, my board, all my customers, the 3 million followers I have on social media. And I'm just as accountable as you are to me. I'm accountable to more people. And the thing you don't have from work, from home is as much accountability because it's easier to take the dog for a walk, it's easier to relax. And I just think human nature is to take the easy route. So I would say if I'm going to be, try and be balanced, I'd say if you're a hardcore coder or you need focused like booth isolation, booth time, maybe you could be more productive working from home. But if you want career progression, if you're creative, creatives need to be around people you like you said, catching those random conversations about things going on. I would say no.

What about the one other positive I suppose is, you know, if you could reduce the number, the office space, you know, that, you know, I don't know if there was hot desks and things, you know, you know, people have one day off a week, but it can move around, so you only need, you need less desks and maybe less expense. I'm just trying to, you know, is.

It not about wanting to get productivity up? This is the thing that really frustrates me. Labor seemed to say nothing about productivity or the old school hard work or working our way through these difficult times.

Yes. Yeah. Work is a four letter word. Indian K. Yes, exactly.

Work is the Antichrist.

Yeah. I started out by saying, you know, in a world where we've had a technology explosion, now we've got AI helping us particularly, you know, that should push up, you know, that should make people more productive, shouldn't it? I mean you can do a website, almost just go on a chatgpt and almost do a website or a good coding for you. So that's got to start to come out in the numbers somewhere, hasn't it? I mean, you know, I did a logo, you know, a company of mine did a logo just boom, that just got it off the fricking. You know, if they would have paid five grand to get a logo design now, you know, or a business plan, it comes, you know, so that's got to filter through, hasn't it? Sooner or later product, that's got to help. But if it doesn't, well then something's wrong.

I think it will. But it will cost those people who don't take work seriously their job.

Yeah.

Because if it can do their job for them, why are you going to keep them? If you know, labor are going to be banging up national insurance for the employer, all you can do is go, well why do I want to employ loads more people?

Yeah, it's. Well we're that venturing onto AI. I mean maybe, maybe all this conversation will be surpassed by, you know, what's going to happen in five years, within the next five years when a lot of things are redefined, you know, so maybe all this tinkering that we're talking about productivity, maybe it's just going to be half the white collar work won't be needed. I mean, I don't know.

And people should be scared about that. They, I believe they should be scared about what labour are trying to do and I believe they should be scared about their jobs and do something about it.

Yeah, I don't know. Is there anything, you know, is labor done anything? You know, we probably don't want to go too political as first, but I don't know. Has labor done anything? Is labor done anything anti business particular? They may not be doing the pro.

Business but their main tax grab in the recent budget was national insurance for the employer.

Yes.

Yeah, so that's pretty anti business. And if you look at the balanced reporting afterwards now you've had some time after like on balanced publications that take both sides, everyone seems to agree it would have been better being spread on income for the employer and the employee. But they couldn't do that because they said they weren't going to tax the workers. So I think it's very anti business to charge National.

Save a hundred thousand straight on your. Off your.

Straight on your bottom line.

Yeah, that's. Yeah. And you're going to employ less people for that. You know, if you've got.

Where are you going to look at your. Your cost cutting?

Yeah. If you've got AI that might do. Instead you're going to think twice because, you know, there's no nic for. No, exactly. So. So it might be, you know, I don't. I don't know.

Entrepreneurs Relief. They've come for Entrepreneurs Relief. I mean, they call it badr now, don't they? But they've chopped that and chopped that and chopped that and chopped that and chop. And they came for it again and they've increased the tax, so less benefit for being an entrepreneur.

So it's kind of same old labor, but. But they did it because the Tories stuffed it up. That's the story now. Now, okay, I've got a point about that. Someone is lying. Someone is lying. Really?

In politics.

Yeah. It's unusual, I think maybe more than a few. More than one, but someone is lying. Okay. Because as I said, I used to work for the Central bank, you know, and there's a Treasury Department. It's not up to. The government should not be allowed to tell us about this 20 billion hole that should be reported independently by the treasury along the way. Were we all duped? Was it Tories? Have the Tories duped us into this 20. Is it 22 billion? Have the Tories duped us into this 20 billion hole without us knowing? We vote like we get a say in that. We're shareholders.

Right. Do we get that?

But if that is true, if that is true, we should be told that along the way. Right? This is big numbers.

Right?

20 billion. We're not talking about, you know, someone's lost a fricking thing in the corner. This is 20 billion. So either they are either we get told along the way or the Labor Party are bullshitting and they're just finding an excuse to put up taxes. Right. So which one is it? And we shouldn't, you know, 20 billion is too big to miss. Well, it's actually. But they're Tory. Sorry. The Treasury Department. The government and the Treasury Department should be obliged to tell us the. I'm going to bang my water. I'm all excited about this topic. But they should be obliged to tell us the real number in real time. You Know, a six monthly update, you know, like they know how can the Treasury Department, there's some job losses if they know about 20 billion hole. Those economists, and I was one, you know, should be fired. AI wouldn't miss a 20 billion hole. So. But you see what I'm saying, Someone is lying. I know it sounds. But someone is lying. Either labor are using it as their typical tax and spend rubbish or the Tories have hidden mismanagement.

Well, maybe both.

Maybe it's 10 billion each. But we should. Don't you agree we should be told this? It's like imagine you're running your company and then you change the CEO and then they come, oh, the accountant comes up, oh, we gotta do this. You're like, what? I want real time information or you know, a month or two. 20 billion. Someone's. You see what I'm saying? So that's the problem. So if labor are just using that as an excuse, then that's really bad, right?

If there isn't, it's easier to blame the previous administration.

Yeah, but they shouldn't get away with it. When we vote, we should know the real situation. If the Tories do that, then kick them out. Right. And if there isn't this 20 billion hole, then no, we don't want this. We don't want these tax rises.

There's a 2.7 trillion hole, isn't there, in the government debt?

Really? Well, you know, but it has, you know, you know, if you look at an economy, we have a lot of assets, you know, like the railway system is an, you know, like so it's like a business, you know, on the balance sheet, you know, you hope you've.

Got more than two points.

There's a lot of infrastructure, isn't it? There's a whole, you know, I don't know what if you valued the entire UK economy, you know, the hard, you know, the assets in it, it'd be worth of God knows. Yeah, even Elon Musk wouldn't buy it, you know, it'd be worth, you know, so you can have some debt. It's just the ability to finance that debt, you know, but, but you know, the governments anywhere don't seem to be able to making hard decisions. And I think that's probably why Trump, without going into whether that's good or bad, I think that's probably what people find refreshing about that, that someone's going to do something and maybe Elon Musk, you know, he's coming in to shake up the cost side, you know, maybe there's Something to be done here. But you know, like how can the nhs. I know, I don't know, you use, I use the NHS sometimes. Like how come I haven't got one app with all my information? Like how can they proper app. I mean they're trying but you know, how come you know they can make mistakes in bookings and well, you know.

The track and trace app in lockdown. How many.

Well that was a fast, wasn't it?

Yeah, they wasted billions. They spent pretty much a trillion on the lockdown which we are the taxpayer.

And that's are paying for and we.

Will for another time.

We're paying for it now.

Yeah.

So I want to talk about this. It's an argument for governments not to get too involved in, in running things. But they do.

This is the thing they, they. I believe, I mean okay, maybe this is a typical capitalist belief, but I believe you intervene as little as possible and you let the markets decide. I think that that creates competition, innovation, improvements. And I just think they way over intervened, especially with lockdown. They've ruined a lot of businesses, they've ruined a lot of people's lives. And what you said about the treasury should be independent from the government, you know, we should have. The central bank should be independent from the government.

The treasury, they can set rates independently without, you know, I think Gordon Brown did that. But they can set rates but the treasury should give us information anyway. Let's not.

It feels like there's no accountability of independence anymore. It just seems like.

And you know, like they went to. There's an NHS crisis, right? And they, you know, I'm an anti smoker, okay, so shoot me or whatever. But you know, they went to pass this law about not smoking outside in pubs and they kept and they talked about it and then they ditched it. And to me, you know, you can argue whether that's good or in Australia you can't even smoke on a beach and everyone is used to it. You go down to Bondi beach, no cigarette butts, no one's sitting next to you having a cigar. It's just banned and you know, people just get used to it and it's, you know, but a decision like that, they are menard, they can't do anything, you know, and then a sugar tax here they've got a problem with obesity. Same in Australia, a problem with obesity and trying to get a sugar tax in. I was talking to a member of parliament and I said why don't you bring in the sugar tax? And instead of grabbing the money like Governments always do another tax, they pocket that and they waste it somewhere. No, no, you can have that money, but the money you put on Fruit Loops and other rubbish food. McDonald's. Sorry, I don't want to have a gut. McDonald's. Right. But any rubbish food, you don't want people to eat on the sugar, put that tax on that. But subsidize bananas, subsidize healthy stuff, subsidize gyms, like don't grab the money, make people healthier, you know, but they won't do anything. Nothing extraordinary or nothing. It's just tax. Tax attacks from both governments or mismanage. So you don't get any bravery. You know, you can't even ban smoking at pubs. Yeah. So I, I don't, I don't. I'm not filled with optimism by either side of politics at the moment.

You know, I want to explore this American model because I'm quite hopeful. So here's what I hope will happen. I perceive that Trump's come in and he's quite proud business and he wants to get some tax bill. He wants to get the tax down for the business owners. I think he feels like that's going to grow the economy. He is an entrepreneur. He's got an entrepreneur at the helm in Elon Musk. Hallelujah. Finally. And it seems like Elon Musk wants to create some transparency of what's going on with government spending, using X as the vehicle to publish. I think he's going to do a dumb leaderboard of most ridiculous tax spends and he's going to share on X, you know, some of the savings he's making in government. If he does what he did with Twitter, he's probably going to fire a load of their version of the civil servants over there who are probably earning six figure salaries for doing three hour working days. I think that's what you need. If a company is bloated, you get rid of costs and we have bloated governments and it looks like that's what Musk's going to do. One, do you think that's going to happen in the us and two, do you think the UK could learn from that?

Well, you know, I've read that, you know, I mean, it sounds great and he's presumably the man to do it.

Hopefully he's done it already.

Yeah, yeah, hopefully he's being honest about, you know, about everything. I've got no reason to doubt his integrity, but I think they'll make some progress. You know, it's going to be exciting to see and that's, you know, whether they could do that here. I mean, I don't there's even any movement to do that here. You know, you read stuff that in the NHS, there's, I don't know what's the number, 500 people earning more than the Prime Minister or something. The middle layer. So the middle, middle, upper middle management is really heavy, which is probably where all the friction and bloating is because.

It slows down the decision making process.

So maybe a bit of AI. Do you know what's funny? I don't want to keep going on about AI, but you know, it might in the election and I noticed that in the US election, the election here. Did you ever hear AI mentioned by anyone? I don't think I think it was mentioned in here. I think I heard it once in all the different speeches, in all the policies, you know, I think I heard it once. Okay, so take a university. You know, you'll be, how long before you're able to just go online and say I want to become a doctor. Well, maybe you know, doctor, you know, but I want to learn about, I want to learn about literature and like I'll have my personal. Even a screen with a person, a person on it talking to me. Oh, tell me about the best books of what I should read. Oh, have you read that? What do you think of that? You know, and then just sit this exam like you can have your personal, you know, you want doing physics, you've got Stephen Hawking, you know, he knows as much as Stephen Hawking sitting there teaching you. And the minute you go no, you're wrong on that immediate real time, for example, what education could become, right? And meanwhile to get a degree, just even a basic sort of degree which may not give you a career is what, 23 times nine is 27, 30. You know, it's probably going to cost.

Student loans, every average university debt 45 grand.

So, so, so, you know, so instead of 45 grand, you'll be able to sit at home and turn on, on your phone, you know. Yeah, on a, on an iPhone or an iPhone 10, an iPhone, you know, you'll be able to turn it on and have personalized. So what's that going to do to a sort of third rate university somewhere or that's charging so much money. But I mean, I'm just giving an example of how effective AI might be and how that, that can say, take a lot of costs and that saves the economy. It's not just one, that person wasting 45000 that that 45,000 can be spent more effectively somewhere else creating proper jobs, you know, it'll flow back in, it'll increase productivity. But I just found it astounding.

So your point about it not really being in any of the campaigns.

I just found it astounding that it was mentioned to my. Obviously, I didn't listen to every single word spoken in the election campaign, but it was not an issue. It was not. We could fix things. I believe, for example. So we were talking about Elon Musk fixing things. I believe, for example, that AI, if the government said, we're going to really use this and everyone's scared of AI because they think it's going to make little robots that are going to come and shoot us.

But if they said, take their job.

Yes, but you said, okay, AI is now being. We're going to spend a billion pounds or some crazy number in the NHS and we're going to put it in there and it's going to replace, you know, it's going to tidy up systems, you know, I'll be able to go on and my medical exam, look at my blood results, you know, blah, blah, and it'll say, instead of, I won't need to see a doctor, and it'll say, oh, that one's a bit higher, that one's a bit low, you know, in two years time, you need one of those, right? Instead of having a doctor who probably won't have time to do it, things like that, or I'm sick, I go on, you know, I'll just talk to an AI program and say, why are.

You doing this then?

Well, they should be exploring it.

Why aren't they?

But, you know, is it because it's.

Going to wipe out all their jobs in the middle layer, you know, I.

Don'T want to kill jobs, you know, but. But it's. It's productivity and the NHS in crisis. There's a solution sitting over there, you know, it's called AI. And you know, it's not. I'm not saying AI is a superman that's going to save us all, but it's going to save a lot. But that. I just found it extraordinary that it was not mentioned by either party on either side of the Atlantic, barely at all.

I. If I'm being skeptical, I wonder that they're scared that it. Because the education system is very old and very out of date and it doesn't make modern entrepreneurs, you know, how can you go and get a business degree and learn from someone who's not running a business, who's on 40 grand a year? That's, you know, they're blackboard economists, not people with real businesses. You know, you've, you've worked in economics and you've run your own business and you know one's theory and another one's reality. I also find it ironic, you know, the government. I know you say we've got assets of trillions, but I don't know, I think we're in. I think we're running insolvently, which is more and more debt, more and more money printing. Yet when you run a company, you can't run insolvently. They can, we can't. So I just. To answer your question, I wonder if there was not much about AI, because then it's going to disrupt universities and then they lose. All the civil servants lose their jobs and they don't have control of the education and creating. Someone said on one of my LinkedIn posts recently, he said, I'm breeding the next generation of taxpayers. And I thought that's what the government are doing. And it was a bit skeptical, but It's a good point. 20 VAT, 25 corporation, 45 income. 15 national insurance. Then you've got business rates.

Yeah.

To start a business and have 60 grand a year slapped on you. Yeah, for business rates.

And then I'm 64. Right. So. And I've got three kids. So when I die, 40 of it gone. Then I mean, I don't know what, what was. Is finally left after you take off all those numbers. Yeah, they take 40.

I work this out. Richard. This is like, I have to say this stuff because a lot of people don't dare say it. I'm going to put a post on LinkedIn about this. The average person pays about 1.5. No, the average household. Let me say that again. So the average household pays about 1.5 million in taxes and interest on debt. The average household earns about 35 grand a year. So they have to work the 42 years and that's all for the government or interest on debt. Let me say that again. It costs about 1.5 million per household in the. The main taxes and interest on debt for your mortgage and your car. And yet the average household in this country is 35 grand a year. That's what the average household income is. It's only barely over the average main wage. And so that's 42 years they're working for the government.

Well, how many years do you work?

Well, exactly. That's what I mean. It's unsustainable the retirement age is going up and up and up. People are obviously having to work longer and longer and longer. If people really knew those statistics.

Yeah, shocking. Well, and a lot of that debt would be on housing, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

So you can take off, you know, as long as housing.

But it's the interest, not the repayment.

Yeah, yeah, but as long as housing. You know, if you're paying 5% on your mortgage, but housing prices are going up 5%.

Yeah, but you've got to adjust it for inflation.

Yeah, that's what I mean. So if you're paying 5% out on your mortgage and your house is going up by 5%, then you're okay because you're, you know, your assets going up.

Yeah, but you've got to add inflation on top of that.

Yeah, yeah, but well that's, then you just, that's an asset. You know, you're losing that either way. Yeah, yeah, but you're break even sort of thing. Yeah, you're losing that either way. But yeah, it's the tax. Well, I think, I think if you look at, you know, and I'm a, you know, I am a, I am a. As a sort of.

Were you doing the Laffer curve?

No, I was doing the debt, the, the government debt.

Right.

And I was starting to draw because I'm, I am a Thatcher fan.

Yeah.

From early Thatcher. I sort of divide her into two and I met her late in life. I gave her an award actually, because, because I, I spun out. I spun out, spun out. I was one of, I think the first with my business partner to spin out a company from Oxford University. So we went to Oxford in the 90s and met a lovely guy, you know, who was sort of running this thing. They had a few little companies and like, and you know, talked to the professors, they'd never run, spun stuff out before. And she passed, she passed these laws that enabled university professors to have some ownership in their intellectual property. So that kind of changed it for universities. And you know, the first thing you had to do with a, with the professors was tell them, you know, don't publish because they love to publish their work and like, let's get the patent before you publish. Right. You know, because so much UK technology or intellectual property has probably been given away for free over the years because they just publish it and off it goes, you know, all these fantastic, you know, universities. But anyway, so she changed it. So they, so we were, you know, I was, me and my mate, partner were like the first two to spin out things from. We spun out five companies from first five from any university in the uk. So but that was done because of Margaret Thatcher. So years later I got to. At the Academy of Science, I was the one who gave her this award called the fe. FE is for iron, the mineral for iron, the scientific science. Anyway, I gave her this award and she. By then she was a little bit dementia, you know, but she still had moments of clarity and she had a real sparkle in her eye and we had a glass of champagne and I was a real. To get back to what I was saying, she was a. I was a real fan of hers in the, in the early days because studying economics at school in the 70s I would look at the UK and it was Misera. You know, it was Almost on the IMF Support Program Misery Index, inflation plus unemployment was 20%, no garbage collection, strike rates through the roof. And she fixed that up. And I do say the people who hate her. How many of those mines have reopened? Right. I mean they were uneconomic, you know, like sorry, you know, you can't just be supported. And I know that's, you know. And unfortunately there has been a shift away from those countries. Cities in the UK who used to do manufacturing, all the manufacturing moved, moved east. That's not Margaret Thatcher's fault in the long run. Unfortunately, that's just what it was. Anyway, if you look at the. Getting back to the. My thing that I was drawing is the debt, the total debt to GDP of the uk the government take, you know, it went right up under the labor governments and then she brought it right back down and now it's gone and now it's right up. I think it's high, higher than ever. So that take that you're Talking about over 12, 30, 42 years, that is now back up and that's a problem. And that's not going to improve productivity because it doesn't makes people not want to work.

Yeah. And also all the interest we have to pay on the debt.

Yes.

The hundreds of billions just on interest on national debt.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow. All right.

But you know, other countries have got it. You know, we're not, you know, it's Italy, you know, you know, Portugal, like I don't know what France is, but everyone's up about that level. US is higher, it's sustainable. But you know, you've got to keep the economy growing.

Yeah, yeah. Right. So should we now spin this into trying to look for some positives?

Yeah.

And by the way, I think this, this stuff is really important to Talk about. Yeah, okay.

So are we on question two now? Three. Yeah. Okay.

I did say this would happen, didn't I? Okay. As a dragon on the den, seeing hundreds of pictures, how do you sell anything to anyone?

How do I tell them? Sell them?

Let me say. Yeah, let me say it again then. As a dragon on the den, having seen hundreds of pictures, how do you sell anything to anyone?

Oh, you mean if I was a pitcher on the den, how do you sell. Yeah, okay.

You've been sold two loads of times.

Well, I'm not a natural, you know. I started a business here called Home House. It's a very. Have you been there? It's like a very successful. You haven't been there. Everyone knows you get in a cab now, you say Home House. It's a beautiful Georgian masterpiece. You know, huge. Like, I don't know, it must be 60,000 square feet. It's got a gym, it's got restaurants, it's got. It's. But it's a Georgian masterpiece. It's got ornate ceilings.

I must have been there.

It's like going into palace of Versailles.

Right.

And it's a private members club, but it's casual dress. And I sort of. I. Me and some other shareholders, I was a main one. We did it up in the 90s and now it's. It's a. You know, it's just near Oxford Street.

Yeah.

But anyways, you know, everyone's been there. Like, you know, Prince Charles did the opening when he was a prince, you know, and, you know, if George Clooney, like, we got it on the map when Madonna came to stay. So, you know, it's a long story, which is in my book, anyway, it's a long story of trying and now it's very successful. Anyway, so the reason I'm mentioning that is because even though I was a main owner, the management after a while stopped me selling it, like selling memberships, because I was. So. I'm not a salesman, you know, I'd go in there with friends or people I knew and I'd feel bad asking them for money. And my friends, I'd say, oh, don't worry, just come in for nothing, you know, because you charge membership fees anyway. What I have learned about presentations and selling is. Cause I've done. Like you, I've done some public speaking and tv, and first thing is to have a brief message, a very short message. I'm sure you're the same. When I go to presentations, sometimes I go to business presentations with spreadsheets and all the rest. Of it. You zone out, everyone zones out. Sometime there's no way, even over five minutes where unless you're listening to us and we're very interesting to listen to, you know, that you will pay attention, you know, so within the first minute, get like a question in their mind or something exciting in their mind. Don't start out. When I was a little boy and you know, like sometimes I get emails asking for investment starts out. Well, my background is this. I used to like bicycles and you know, I'm like, I'm not going to read this. It's like it should be like, do you want to change the world in the bicycle market? You know, that's. It's got to be. And why and the sooner you get that out. So the first minute is crucial. The first minute you have to grab their attention. So that's the first thing. And you know, get that out really quick. The second thing is, and I've got to be careful doing that. Sometimes I say there's five things and by the time I get the fifth one I forget. Another one is to embrace the butterflies. So I found when I've done public speaking, I've probably like, you have done hundreds now of after dinner speeches and stuff like that or lectures. And I find if I'm feeling flat, if I'm not nervous, it's normally I don't enjoy it. I'm just like, it's tedious for me and it's probably a flex in my performance. Whereas you've got to be a bit like today I'm a little bit. Got a bit of butterflies, but I'm not nervous enough to like, you know, so have some butterflies. Don't worry about having butterflies. Have you. Another thing is I used to go on a Matthew Wright show. You know, it's a lot. It was a live TV show here which did very well. Million audiences live. And we used to review the news in the morning and there was one morning, it was the middle of summer, I don't know why they had window open somewhere. And we're reviewing and this is live TV with a million people watching at live audience. And somehow some wind came through and all our newspapers went flying off the thing. Well, this is fucked. Is this a problem? Right? I'm like, you know, if that one Dragon's Den, that's not gonna make it on the footage. But this is live tv. And they go. And he goes, oh, look at that. They were having fun. I'm like. And it just reminded me and it was fine, you know, just pick it up, you know, but it just reminded me of how you react if you're giving a presentation or, you know, I think that's what we're talking about. If you're giving a presentation or a pitch or something and something goes wrong, like you mix up a number or, you know, you do, your fly's undone, Whatever, you know, how you react is the audience will react the same way. So if I'm really embarrassed and I go, oh, my God, I've messed up my numbers, they feel awkward.

Yeah.

And it's bad for everybody, you know, it distracts, you know. But if I go, huh, sorry, that number was wrong. Let's start again. Oh, hang on, I've got the wrong. You know, sometimes your slides don't work and you're like, oh, hang on. And they're fine as long, but if you're like, oh, no. So they react like you do.

Right.

And then another thing is probably to animate, animate yourself because it tends to. Even just standing up, you know, I'm not a big guy, but if you're standing up in front of, particularly in a big audience, you've got to be more animated and speak maybe a little bit more forcefully or loudly than you normally would, or use your hands. You've got to be a bit more expressive. You can't just stand like as if we were doing a one on one. You know, if we were doing one on one, I wouldn't necessarily be, you know, but you've got to be like that. So that's probably another thing. And when you're giving a pitch, I think as well, don't put fricking words on or numbers on the screen. Like, that is a huge mistake that will kill your presentation.

Right.

The number of times that they go up and they start talking about these numbers, everybody, me included, is like, oh, what's that number? What's that number? Hang on, what's that number? Okay, what's that? What's that say? Right, so you're reading that no one can do. You know, I'm a chess player. I can play multiple games of chess at the same time, but I cannot listen. And look at, look at this, right? So that's kill, do, never do that. Right. Maybe one word. You know, if. Let's go back what we're talking about. Bicycles, bike don't have. In 1652, the number of bikes was this and the number of that and that, like graph is going to do that. In year four, we're going to do that. I haven't got a clue what he's saying, or if I do, I'm like, why is that there? It's just horrible. So, no, put pictures up. What I do when I give a presentation is put pictures up. And if you want to talk about bicycles, a picture of a bike, that's it. And then I don't use notes without. You know, I talk for maybe 45 minutes, but I don't use giving away my little secrets here. But if I don't. If I don't, I don't use a. I don't use a script, you know, I just talk off script. But I know what I'm talking about. You know, I think I do. But. But I have. I put up this and I go through. Because I've had 100 businesses, I got a lot of different ones I can. To talk about, you know, and I've. I've done enough speaking that I know which ones are easy to talk about or which ones people like to hear about versus the ones which are too hard to tell.

Yeah.

You know, anyway, so I will have a picture of whatever I'm talking about if it was bicycles. And then in the corner, like, which means nothing to anyone, I might have a little picture of the next slide. So if the next thing I wanted to talk about. Huh.

As your own prompt.

As my own prompt. So if the next thing I was going to talk about was bubblegum, you know, my bubble gum business. I've got a little picture of maybe a bubble gum. Or I may even just have a little B. Yeah. Or BB for bubble. Bubble gum. Bg. Yeah. I might even have bg, which means nothing to anyone. You know, it's not going to just. And then I go, okay, that's what I talk about next.

Yeah.

And so. Because sometimes in the middle of it, you might go, so. So. So I use pictures. So that's a big no. No. I would emphasize do not put numbers up on the screen. Put. Put pictures and maybe little prompts for yourself. And don't read a speech. That's a killer.

Yeah.

But apart from actually selling something, you know, I don't know, you know, enticing someone into, you know, that's a sort of salesmanship. But in terms of pitches, they are. They are very useful tips that I've learned from experience. Yeah. So I find them useful and. Yeah.

Thank you. That was great. And what about the best pitch you've ever seen on Dragons Den?

You know, funnily, you know, I did reggae. Reggae source.

You did Levi? Yeah, he's been on the show.

Has he Been on your show?

Yeah, years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, it's funny, you know, I backed him and he's more famous than I am and he gets. I love that. And he speaks at business conferences. I'm like, must you learn a lot in the meantime? You know, he's lovely. He'd laugh, he would laugh, you know, and, you know, oddly enough, he embraced some of those things that I was just talking about. So, you know, I don't know if it was a while ago, but it's quite a viewed episode on Dragons Den, the reggae. I think it's the most viewed one. Yeah, he got. I caught him out on. I'm a numbers guy and I caught him. He's waving around this order. So when you come on, you want to talk about Dragons Den.

Sure, yeah, yeah.

So you come on Dragons Den. You know, you haven't got a lot of advantages sitting there like this in front of a CV crew. You know, you can't, you know, if someone comes on like Levi with his source. I can't Google Levi roots. I've got no idea about him. All the things you'd normally do, investing in a business. I can't Google, you know, know, jerky sauces and how much they sell.

You can't look at all of his companies and his previous.

Yeah, I can't do any of that. I can't, you know, like, I can't look at how much it costs to make a sauce. I'm not that good at how much it costs to make a sauce and how much it should sell for. Theo, for Thetis is very good.

He's been on the show as well.

Yeah. Getting, getting. Knowing what it costs to make some shampoo and what it should sell for. I don't know those. Joins those dots. I'm not really in retail anyway. But you can't Google any of that stuff. Right. So you just got someone in front of you. And so he came on, he brought his guitar on, singing, because your music in your food. For me, I got the reggae, reggae. And he came on and he'd been sitting there for two days. You're not allowed to see the. See the set, not allowed to see us. And he'd be sitting there for two days waiting for his slot. In the meantime, he'd broken his guitar string, so the BBC apparently told him not to use his guitar. And he's like, I can't do it without the guitar. And he insisted, which is a big move. So then he got his and he came on singing. So that. That was a nice, you know, in a way, we're talking about that first minute. That was something you don't get. You know, you're sitting there filming for week after week, suddenly you see something like that. It's a move, a mood lightener, you know, Also, just the way he reacted, like when we said, how come we got such a cool name like Levi Roots? And he goes, well, it's really Keith Graham, but I just prefer Levi Roots. And he laughs. So we laugh, you know, Whereas if he's like, oh, well, actually it's not my name, you know, so we reacted like that. And the. But the ultimate was when I go, levi. And he's waving an order around. So again, I can't. I've got no idea how many. And I'm pointing as if he's over there. But, you know, I've got no idea how much Saucy sells. But, you know, you know, as well as I do, when an order, a verification that a product will sell is very valuable, right? So if you. Come on, I've got an order like, you know, I don't know anything about source. If someone serious is going to buy it. That gives me a lot of comfort. So he's waving around this order and I've got, you know, and he's been selling it for Notting Hill Carnival for years and years, but I don't think he's had that much success to that point. And he's waving around this order. I'm like. And I'm used to leaders being Australian and I'm a numbers guy. I'm going, hang on, this sounds like two leaders per person in the United Kingdom. This sounds like it's not quite right. I'm like. And so I said. So I said, it's on the film. I said, levi, I think you're at. By a factor of a thousand to one on your numbers right now. This is the epitome of what I was talking about before Levi, when something like that happened. And that's probably the biggest mistake I ever saw in the 10. When something like that happens, normally it would be okay. Levi'd be. Whoever it was would start shaking and. And, you know, like, you know, you know, like embarrass as hell, right? That's. That's obviously the end of that, right? And then off, get up, stop wasting my time. You know, Peter would get stuck right into him. You know, he just get off. And he's just like, oh, yeah, yeah. Any other questions? I'm like, who is this? You know, who is this? Guy, right. And as I say, reacting like that made us react like that. So instead of me going, instead of Peter or whoever going, you're an idiot. We go the opposite. I didn't care, so why should we? But it was around about that time. So to me, that was an amazing. By accident, an amazing presentation because he did everything right. He had presentation. He gave out the sauce to each of us to try. But even then, that doesn't mean much. I'd have to have blind tasting, you know, to do it like a wine tasting. I'd want to have 10, 10 different sauces. I don't know what they taste like and taste that. So even that, that. And. But Duncan was out straight away because he doesn't like it anyway. Anyway. But you'd have something like that. But he, his, his initiation, like with the guitar, the song, you know, smiles, his hair, look, you know, and then he came out, he gave everyone a product. And then just being so nonchalant about mistakes and like, you know, and like that. And, and that was, to me was the best presentation. Sort of by accident, but. Right, but. But it was because of that, that, that then somewhere, and I got it on my notepad, you know, scribbling down notes and, and all these stories are in my book, by the way.

We'll get there.

Anyway. Yeah, it's called Humble Stumbles.

Right?

Good name, huh? Yeah, rhymes.

Humble Stumbles. And what is it about? What's it about?

Hang on, we've got to finish the Levi Ridge story first because we come back to the book anyway. No, but, but so I've got. Jotting down on my note about. My notes about. About him. And it was like a eureka moment because there's no way you're going to invest in this source. I mean, sorry, you know, Levi, I don't think you, you know, you know, but I'm like, the product is not the source. The product is this guy. This guy's a product. Anyone love him? How can you not love Levi? And also, you know, this is going to be shown for 15 minutes on BBC, you know, primetime TV with 5 million people watching, like, this guy's a product. And I wrote it on my pad. I've still got it. Yeah, the product is not the source. The product is him, you know, and therefore invest, you know, so it was like that, that, you know, and so, so for that reason, and that's a funny reason, he's the best presentation.

Right.

And that changed his life.

It did. And it's interesting that he probably made the biggest mess up of numbers on the entire show to get it out by a factor of a thousand, but yet he still got the money.

And you do wonder if he had a time machine, if he didn't mess that up, that made him more likable. Yeah. And somewhere those mistakes made me like him.

Right.

And if I hadn't liked him.

Yeah.

And Peter jumped on the back of it, so he split it, that investment. But I don't think Peter would have invested if I didn't invest. So if I hadn't have suddenly decided I like this guy, but if he hadn't made the mistakes, maybe I wouldn't have liked him. So it really is about just reflecting and being yourself and letting people know you a little bit, isn't it? Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that story because it is easy to get yourself all nervous and het up. And sometimes it feels like business is really serious. And that's why I love his story. Can we go through the numbers on that, then?

What, the 10,000? The numbers on what?

On the investment.

Yeah.

So how much did you put in?

Okay, you got. You're testing my memory. I think it was. It wasn't much when I say. I don't mean to be frivolent, about tens of thousands of pounds, but, you know, I think it was 20,000 each. I think it was 40,000 between the two of us.

Okay, so you put 20 grand in and what share. How much of a share of the.

Business did you get? Again, you're testing my. I think we had 40%. I think we put in 20. But, I mean, it's easily for people to look it up. And I'll probably be wrong, but it was something like that. It was something like 20%. You know, at the time, it was like. Yeah.

And how.

Give him some money.

So for you, that was not a lot of money?

Not relative to the amount you're supposed to invest, no.

And how much did that investment make you?

Well, I sold out early.

How early?

Probably wrong.

Right? How early?

Wrongly. Well, certainly wrongly.

Yeah.

Because Levi, and, bless his soul, he then wanted to go to the US And I'm like, Like, you know, I'm like, our advantage is here in the uk.

Yeah.

And I know I have it. I call this thing the 1% myth, you know, like.

Oh, yeah. When they think they take 1% of the market. Yeah.

You can get one every. You can sell one Chinese to one toothbrush to every Chinese, you know, 1% myth. And I thought, okay, if we can just sell one better source to one everyone. Yeah, I thought you know, and even Boots had failed going to. Trying to get into the U.S. you know, a lot of it's great.

Brits and British companies going to the US super hard, isn't it?

Yeah. And, you know, we have to be honest. Honest. You know, Levi got that big leg up because people knew who he was. So for that reason, I'm out right now. For that reason, I sold out. And I probably shouldn't say because it's probably company confidential, but it was a nice.

But you got a good X. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A big X. Yeah.

If I could get that X on everything, I'd be. I'd be right out there doing X's.

So. So is it. Was it more than 10x?

I can't say. Yeah, but you know, you got the idea.

Okay, right, yeah.

Because then the next question is, was it more than 15? I've got kids. I'll stop.

Was it more than 10x? I'll stop. Okay, great. So. So, because 10x is, I guess, a big return. All right. And so you came out. But I mean, did you, like, lose 100x potential return with how big it got?

You're going to reverse engineer. I'm a maths guy, remember?

I'm not. No, I don't. I'm not here trying to catch anyone else.

I have no idea what it's worth now because I'm not a shareholder anymore, but what I read is 30 million.

Right.

But I know that there has been, you know, I'm not nothing. I've got no idea what that number is, but I know how numbers get inflated around the place.

Right.

Yeah, I've got no idea. But you can imagine. Right?

Yeah. Wow.

And good luck to him, you know, so.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And so what. What was the. The biggest deal you did in the Den in terms of financially for you? Well, that made you the most money.

No, that one made me the most money. I didn't make. I didn't make. Yeah. I don't think anyone made money on Dragon Cent. You know, I don't think I had any. You're saying I missed out on Trunky.

Oh, okay. Yeah, that was.

No, no. Reggae was his biggest. Put it this way, it paid for. It paid. It paid for all my others.

Right.

And, you know, I made a profit out of Dragon Stand, if you want to look at it that way.

Right. And. And that one paid for all the others.

Yes.

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I think they did, yeah. Yes, I did. Yeah.

Wow.

So you just didn't proceed and just for the avoidance of doubt. Yeah, the one that didn't proceed had nothing to do with me. You know, I tried to get it, you know, it was almost. It was bad for me that didn't proceed. Yeah, But. But, you know, one thing I will say.

You fell down negotiating afterwards.

Yeah, I put. I gave them a lot of help and then they pulled out.

Right.

And also, you're always at the risk that people want coming on for publicity and then just getting the investment and then not taking it, you know, because they want to get the invest. Get an investment offer because.

So they go and use it as leverage somewhere else.

Well, then they get the publicity. Yeah. So you're saying, oh, the investments that didn't happen on Dragon's Den.

Well, actually, one thing you said, I want to jump on. So you said none of the Dragons make money on the Den. So you saying they all end up losing money in net.

Well, I said that a bit flippantly.

Right.

I made money, but I've got no idea. Now, there might have been the odd. You know, but, you know, they say.

About one in 10 works and one pays for the 10. Is that about right?

Yeah, I think it's about right. And, you know, in Dragons Den, there was criticism in the newspapers about deals not getting done, but that the rate of deals getting done was very typical for reaching. You know, if you and I reach an agreement now on some business that I've got or whatever, then, you know, when you look at it, I know it's not quite what I thought or, you know, and I did one on Dragonstem, where a young guy. I don't think it was his fault. You know, I asked him if he had a patent. He said he had a patent. I asked him if he had any debt. He had no debt. And I asked him, he had stock, and in each of those three cases, he gave the wrong answer. So when I went to invest, there isn't a pattern, you know, and there isn't stock. And then he owes money. I'm like, well, it's not the deal. And also, as we were saying before, you do get. Some people come in, want to do a deal for investment to get the 15 minutes on the show, but then with that fame, they can drop out and get a higher price elsewhere.

Cheeky.

Yes. So. But I think. I think. I think the rate of, you know, given you don't have those benefits. We talked about being able to Google something or being able to research the person or the product. You know, the rate is. You know, the rate of getting deals done or success is pretty good.

Yeah.

You know, you don't have much to go on. You're sitting there, you got maybe 20 minutes or. To make a decision about investing in someone. Yeah.

And why did you. Why did you leave? Did you leave?

Did you. I was kicked off. Really unceremonious. No, it was kicked off nicely. But why. Which was. And then all the press. There was press speculation. I mean, I don't really want to. You know, I don't want to. I don't. It was very good experience for me. I really enjoyed it. But they're. But, you know, because they wanted to racially rebalance the show and they were brought on James Kahn, you know, and that was a newspaper speculation. I mean, it was a. No, it was a surprise. I've got no idea. And I don't want to. I'm not saying that's true. I'm just saying that was speculation. Yeah. I mean, I was surprised because I was told I was the most popular. Right. And that I had. Oddly enough, I was making so many off, I was determined to make offers even if it was a long way away from what they wanted, because I wanted, you know, there was a price for something, but it may not be what you want. So. So I was making a lot of offers and. And you know, and they were very happy with me, so I was surprised. So I don't. The story about the rebalancing might make sense, but, you know, in. It's a long time ago, and I'm like, it was only good for me, you know, I always had that, you know, talking about business, it's like being like an artist, you know, if you, like, you know, you. I don't know if you ever feel the same, but, like, okay, not that I'm a painter, but if you painted something saying that you're good at it, you know, like saying you're good at business. Business is. It's not. It's not. It's a moving thing. Like, it's not, you know, like, I never felt. I always felt. I always had imposter syndrome.

Really.

I'm giving my opinion, but. But, but what do I know? So you've.

You've had a hundred companies and you still feel imposter syndrome.

Yeah. And don't you have. Don't you find it elusive? There's no, like, you know, it's, you know, there's no. I never get. So that's, you know, obviously, you know, there's sort of rules of thumb strategies in my book. Not to hire, not to, you know, not to spend too much. But, you know, you know, when I was on Dragons, I'd go in a restaurant and the owner would come up and say, oh, can you give me some suggestions about my business? I'm like, you know, way more about your business than I do. I'll never know, you know, so. But also because of my background, you know, I had a tough childhood. You know, I always had that imposter syndrome anyway, so I never felt that comfortable about sitting there in my chair and saying, that's a good business, that's a bad business.

That's really fascinating that someone who was on Dragon's Den, the most popular person on Dragon's Den, have a hundred companies made probably hundreds of millions. I won't ask you. Maybe I should. And yet still feel imposter syndrome.

Yeah. And oddly, you know, I. I don't think the others had that at all. No, you know, just to be.

So what did they have that you didn't? Why did they believe in themselves more than you?

Well, I think, you know, I mean, that's, you know, sort of going into my background, but, you know, let's do that.

Why not?

Oh, okay. Well, you know, I went through the care system and, you know, I was in an orphanage for a while, take away from my parents. So it's quite.

What age were you taken away?

When I was three.

Wow. Do you remember anything about your parents?

Yeah, I remember, you know, I remember, you know, leaving my mother and, you know, and we were. I mean, we had to be taken away.

We were.

We were not in good shape.

Right.

And then. And I remember the orphanage, you know, where it was actually a girl's because I was a little boy. I was in the girls, you know, home, and my sisters were there because I'm one of the 11. So I had sisters there, but they were. So we were taken.

Taken away.

Yeah, we're all taken away. And we were in the outback of Victoria, of New South Wales, and we've put on a train. You know, I spent the night in the hospital. You know, they took us from my mother, but we lived in a tent. I know this sounds like one of those comedies, you know, but we lived in. My father was a sheep shearer, you know, so we traveled around just from town to town. And he was a good worker, but sort of alcoholic and violent, but he wasn't. And we just had so many children. I mean, I'm 11 kids and we didn't have a home. So we lived in two tents and a truck and would drive around. And my older sister Betty, who's like not much more than a year older than me, she was sleeping in a box and I was in a little thing on the tent. But we were undernourished and the police had come and told our parents that they were going to take us. At that point, there were six of us, long story. They'd given away kids to other families in the outback.

So you were all split.

So the six of us were there and then. So they came and took us, which was, you know, my mother was distraught, my father was, you know, and then we end up. And then I was in a home, but the home was so cruel. This is, you know, I'm 64. This is in the early 60s, mid-60s, and, you know, so cruel, you know, like, there's been books written about just how bad, you know, so my sisters could hear me crying. They weren't allowed to come in, you know, like. Like, who would do that? Like, you know, that doesn't sound like a. But when I think of it, something that's sort of. Imagine them. Imagine Me, you know, like, you're just taken away from your mother and, you know, you can't see each other. You know, I feel sorry for that little boy. You know, I didn't know that. I kind of remember, you know, the feelings of it all. But when my sisters told me that, it really made me freaking. Who would do that?

But that's a nice thing that you can feel sorry for that little boy, because I think a lot of people can't have that connection with their childhood. Can me? Because I, I, I. My therapist has been. Not seen her recently. But she kept trying to get me to love that little boy, and I found it so hard. I couldn't. I just couldn't do that. With so much shame. Yeah, Just so much shame. But you learned to love that version.

Yeah. Well, you know, part of me, you know, because I got children. When I had my son, my first child, I remember thinking, and by then I was 30, you know, early 30s. And when he was like, I kind of forgave myself when I had him, I'm like. And he was like 2. And, you know, like a battered wife. You might be the same thing, you know, like a battered wife who blames themselves, victims who blame themselves.

And so did you blame yourself?

So deep down, I'd blame myself. Like, I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous, but it's common.

I think that's what I'm saying. Blame yourself for the rejection from your parents.

Yeah. So I thought I'd done something wrong. Like, obviously, you asked me, I did something wrong. Of course I didn't do anything.

No, you were three.

I had all the emotion and the belief and the guilt of someone who'd done something wrong.

And so do you think this is where the imposter syndrome still stays in?

And you think you're shit. How many hundreds of millions do you.

Have to make to prove.

But money, okay, no successful companies. And then, because I was traumatized by that. And then. So then I came out and I didn't speak, you know, I didn't really talk that much TILL I was 10, you know, and then I was put in special learning classes and I was told I was stupid. I'm basically told to my face that I was stupid and I was doing really bad.

You had that with your teachers, didn't you?

They were sort of My. My foster father was not. Was just telling me stupid the whole time. That was. So the foster home, you know, it was no refuge for me. I didn't. And I miss my sisters, like, all the way. I just wanted to be rescued by my mother. So. Yeah, but being, you know, I knew I was in a special class and I had friends who were like, they were, you know, in that class. But, you know, I knew I was in special learning. I knew I had problems, you know, so it didn't. So I just felt, you know, stupid. But. And I had all the, all the, whatever the emotion or the feeling of the belief of someone who was, was responsible for that and that I was stupid. And so, but when I had my son, you get this little boy and he's perfect. Like any one year old is perfect, especially when you're the parent.

They're perfect.

Right. You know, and I'm like. And it really dawned on me, like with Levi Roots, it's like I couldn't have done anything wrong. Like, I know it sounds obvious and it is obvious, but it hit me like, what would he ever do that I would send him off to a, to a orphanage? What would he ever do? I'm like, I can't. Like it really hit. And so then I sort of started and it wasn't just overnight, but it was a slow, you know, that I realized you don't have to feel like that. But I still carry. I still don't have amazing self esteem or, you know, and, and success, you know, money and success. It's a band aid and you know, you can pull away that band aid. It's an onion, you know, as people say. Yeah. You know, I used to say, I used to say to girlfriends, watch out, I'm an onion. You know, I've got lots of layers and I can make you cr. You know. Jokingly. Yeah, jokingly, but, but, you know, so, so, you know, money and success, it's. It's a band. But you know, but, and also. And when you get recognition for other people for those things, you know, I said, you know, like, I think I'm lucky I did this, lucky I did that. You know, like a good fortune. You know, I worked hard, but, but, you know, I don't think I deserve this. Suddenly I'm on TV and people adore you and they, they trust every word you say about their restaurant. You're like, I don't deserve that. So. So, you know, but you know, to me, I'm more surprised by people who don't feel like that.

Right.

Like, how can you ask Deborah about just choosing Deborah, for example, but how can you ask her about a semiconductor business? And she give advice. I mean, look, well, no, but she.

Could give advice on general business.

Yes, probably. I'm probably being I'm probably.

Which the average person on the street would have no knowledge of.

Yeah, but I always start, you know, I always start with what I don't know. But I, but I, that's my feeling, you know. But sitting on national TV and. But, you know, as I say, like with a painter it's like saying business is common sense. Like, do you like my painting? Maybe you do, maybe you don't like with paint, with business, it's, it's a moving, you know, if I came to you, can I sell this product? And I asked you, how would I know? How would you know? Like, you know, it depends on would reggae source sell?

Yeah, so I, I agree with you. For example, all the information in the universe I know, I know not nothing, but I mentor hundreds of thousands of entrepreneurs and if I said that none of them are going to learn from me. And I also know whilst in the whole grand scheme of the universe I know nothing and I humbleize myself to that in terms of business and entrepreneurship from someone who was broke in his 20s, in debt, I actually have got pretty good track record and I've got some good results and I do know a thing or two. And I can also learn from people like you who've got more experience. So. So there's nothing wrong with owning a bit that you know a bit.

Well, having said that, I'm going back to my book. But I put for Some reason it's 47 right strategies I do have. There's mostly stories like the ones we've been talking about, but, but strategies I do put strategies that I've learned. You know, there's this section on strategies. So having said that, I have distilled it into. Yeah, into strategies. So while I say I don't, I guess you know, there's strategy, you don't have these strategies and which I see people breaking. So I can understand. Again, it's a bit of imposter syndrome. I shouldn't feel like that. But when I. All the evidence says I should be able to advise someone. But on the other hand, and you still do it because you write books and on the other hand I still feel like I think this is right.

Yeah, but, but that's from your childhood probably.

Yes. Yeah.

And you said, and you said that because I really want to drill into this, you said that success and money, it's a band aid. Had you not had the void from your childhood, you might not have of driven for the success and the money because you had nothing to put a band aid on.

Yes, that's true. Yeah. You know, like, sometimes I meet sort of what I'd call, you know, my childhood was very unusual, but I meet people with normal. Yeah, normal childhoods and there's no motivation and. Yeah. And I'm like, God, I'd be the laziest bastard on the planet. Like, you know, like, you've got a nice home and wherever, and you're like, your parents are doing this. Like, you know, I mean, I wouldn't. So I, you know, so when you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice. So I don't know if I was motivated. I just didn't have a choice. You know, when you're in the care system, when you leave at 18, you know, I had to leave the foster home at 18, you know, my friends going to university by then I was getting good school marks. I couldn't go to university. I had no money. You know, the government support. I do some work for charity. And one of the things we did was advocate for, you know, support. When you're 18, you just fall off a cliff. And then they all ended up in the streets or taking drugs. You know, I was lucky that I got a job, you know, straight away, but I had to go to university at night when all my friends are going during the day because I got parents, you know, but. But so, you know, I didn't have a choice. And I knew if I didn't do well at university, I'd know, you know, if I didn't do well at school. You know, I learned early on when I went from the sort of special learning class to the top classes because I was. I wanted to do well. I like. I'm gonna. And I like school because I didn't like being at home. So anyway, you know.

Yeah, well, I think there's a lot to learn in that story, so I'm glad you shared it.

Yeah, well, you probably got the same by the sounds of it, you know, motivated by.

Yeah, I'm definitely running away. Away from things and towards money and business and entrepreneurship and books and podcasting and all this stuff I'm. Part of it is running towards what I want to achieve, but a big part of it is running away from stuff that happened when I was young. And I used to hate all that stuff I was running away from about myself, and I used to just hate myself. And then I suppose, you know, when you get some external validation and you get some actual results as well as just words, you know, okay, I can turn this into something productive. And so you can still run away from what you're running away from. Because I'm 45 now, you thought I shouldn't be running away from things that happened when I was 9 or 10. But if what you're running away from propels you towards something productive and valuable and useful to society, which, you know, books on teaching people how to be entrepreneurs and investing in upcoming entrepreneurs and creating a culture of entrepreneurship in the UK like you were involved in, to me, that's a massive thing.

That's a good thing. Yeah, you're right. It's a good thing. Yeah. So hopefully. Yes, amen. And.

And we can own that now with that. Yeah.

Yeah. And I suppose, you know, you know, business is kind of like a drug, you know, it's exciting, you know, so, so you, you probably need to get kicks, you know, like, I don't know, like, I like the kicks from, you know, I had to stop myself. I don't know if you've had to do this, but I was like, became the reason I've done so many. It's like 120 or 130. Business is, I think I became like a deal junkie, like I loved.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. You got a new one of these? Yeah, Let' do it. You know, and I have to stop myself, I have to say, listen, you've done those before, they don't work, you know.

I know that feeling.

Yeah.

So.

So essentially someone, you think, oh, wouldn't this guy be amazing?

Yeah, you know, like, so you've, you, you've created a healthy addiction from the pain in your childhood.

Yes.

Well, there's worse things to be addicted to than business.

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

Right, so we have 11 minutes left.

Right. Okay. We got. And we're sorry I've been ranting we.

Like around so we're going to do, do quick fire round.

Okay.

I'm going to try and get all these. I've probably got like 15 questions.

Yeah.

So do you reckon you could do them in each one? In about a minute.

Yeah. I'll shut it down a bit. Yeah. Sorry.

All right. Biggest mistake young entrepreneurs make, spending too much on.

Well, you know, you know, I sort of classified in my book, you know, that businesses discovery, disruption, discovery and defense, you know, so you've got to disrupt one way or another. It's either on price, you're either selling this by disrupt by price. I can make this cheaper, exactly the same. Or disrupt because it's better with a better material or whatever. So it can disrupt one of two ways. So it starts with Disruption, then it's discovery. So how long, how, if I make this, how long does it take me to figure out if I've got a viable business? So if you've got, you're starting this business with 10 grand, 100 grand, any number you're starting that business. Most entrepreneurs go, this is going to work, work. And they go and order stock and they spend money on logos. They might have an office, they get their business cards, they get, you know, and they spend all the money. And then it takes longer. Like a house renovation. It costs twice as much, takes twice as long. So they run out of money. And they run out of money before discovery. This may be a good idea. Right, but they don't have money. You've got a certain amount of money to find out if it's a good idea. They waste the money on one thing. The first year is a research process, product project. The first year is spending the money to find out if this is viable. That's what you want to find out as quickly as possible. And if it means not having a shop front, not having any offices, not having a briefcase, just go and sell that. And you know, not to, you know, find out. And so many times even I made that mistake in my early days. I'd run through the money before we found out if the product was viable. And I'd feel like, you haven't, you've watched a movie, but you haven't watched the second half of the movie. You don't know was it a good idea?

Idea. So, so they're spending too much money on the business before getting through to figure out the product to work or not.

Yeah, find out. It's an idea. Find out. No expert will tell you if that'll sell or not. No one, no Dragon, no one else. You've got to find out. Like, like a, like developing a pharmaceutical drug. You've got to do a trial to find out.

Got it. As a Dragon.

Yes.

In one minute or less.

Okay.

Should you raise money to start a business or self fund and bootstrap?

It depends on your circumstances. You know, if you're, if you've got plenty of money, then you know, you may not. That's a tough question because it depends on your circumstances. Good.

I like tough questions.

Yeah, I mean, if you have a choice, then why would you take external funding?

Because you're giving away a share of the business. Yeah, but what if you could grow to 10x with other people's money, which.

Is, well, that's, that's doing a different business. So they're starting the business or they're starting a bigger business with other people's money.

Yeah.

So you have to value the, Find out the value of that money. If it means you can quickly access markets and, you know, do things better and get to the answer of whether this is a viable product, then get the, get the money. It's worth it.

Right.

And also if it comes with expertise, then fantastic.

Right.

And also you may need further funding later and if they're shareholders now, they'll follow the business and you can. And you can get the extra bit for the expansion.

Right, Got it. In one minute or less. What are traits of disruptive entrepreneurs?

Well, I think all entrepreneurs are disruptive. That's one of my D's. Disruption or all. Yeah, you either have to disrupt on price or on product. So everyone is, you know, you're doing something different. Even your podcast something different. Anyway, so what was the question? What's the traits? What's the traits? I think I was going to ask you before because we've been talking about our backgrounds and things. I do find a lot of people have little quirks, you know, they're not your sort of Joe Average from Joe Average Family or Jill Average Family. They tend to have little quirks and, and be motivated or something to prove. So maybe, maybe they're not the healthiest people mentally, you know, because you got something to prove. Yeah, but they need. I, I found one thing and there is no, I don't. Entrepreneurs come from all ages, all backgrounds, all countries, all religions, whatever, but there are no lazy entrepreneurs. So, however, whatever gives you motivation. There are no lazy entrepreneurs.

In one minute or less. Is university now a scale?

A scam is a tough word because I was a chancellor of a university, you know, fantastic one, which changed people's lives. London South Bank University, you know, it changed people's lives more than Oxford University. It used to piss me off when it got bad rankings because a kid going in there with Cs and Ds, go in there, get an engineering degree, come out, his salary expectation goes from here to here. You go to Oxford, you know, those kids are going to get good jobs anyway. They're smart, you know.

So has it changed now?

So having said that, with reference to our conversation before, that you can self educate. It's going to get a lot cheaper with AI, I do think, and I don't want to sound like a snob because I did economics and maths, which are proper degrees. Not all degrees are degrees. I'm sorry, but some things are not going to some things do not add value and that's an indulgence. And unfortunately that list is probably growing. Doing like studying literature for example, as we go into AI which can write a book in five. It didn't write my book. Right. But something like that may be the wrong choice. So there's degrees and degrees. So I'd think carefully. I was on the radio the other day and I said if I had kids now, I'd probably say be a plumber.

Yeah. I mean some plumbers and trades are only six figures now. They're really needed. And there's all these degrees which don't guarantee a job. You're 45 grand average in debt and you're 26 grand average ASAP salary.

Yeah.

That doesn't work. I think as well just added my bit in. If there's one degree you think might be useful at university. Marketing.

Yeah.

What do you think?

I don't know, I'm not very good. Marketing has always been a mystery to me.

But marketing is generating leads, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah, I think it's. You could probably learn, you know, a lot of these things you can learn. My son did, did computer science. He said he could have done it a year himself. You know, whether you do that if you're motivated. I mean if I was me coming through, you know, I did night school so I had to work to go to university. But really I could have done it, you know, in a year at home, you know, so.

So knowing what you know now.

Yeah.

Would you go to university or would you self educate?

I think it was good for me because I was working during the day. If it lost, knowing what you know now, I lost three years of my life for economics, maths. Yes.

You'd go to university.

Yeah.

What about to be an entrepreneur and start a business? Why don't you just start the business instead of waiting three years and getting 50 grand?

Well, yeah, you know, but you, you grow up, you know, like my math.

I don't need to go and get drunk to grow up.

No, no. My math skills and economic skills have been a lot actually.

Help.

Right, A lot of help. You know, and that discipline of thinking, all that kind of stuff. I, you know, entrepreneurs are normally disciplined thinkers, you know and I didn't like it when I went on Dragon's Den and you know, I'm a chess master. I played in two chess Olympiads.

Wow.

Right. And also I've got, you know, first class honours degrees in economic and maths. And why didn't they mention that you know, you know, so. So. And I'm a foster kid, you know, grew up in the care system. What they got me driving in my car around Monte Carlo. Why couldn't they mention it's okay to go to university, you know, but, but. And it's okay to play chess and be a nerd, you know, but they. Why didn't they show that, you know, instead of. Anyway, so I didn't, I didn't like that. But an entrepreneur, you can. You can go to university. There's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, but, but you know, bear in mind, you know, you can start a job if you're 15 hours at uni. You can start a job while you're doing it.

Yeah.

More than one thing in. More than one finger in your pie or whatever it is. But I will say I read another book, you know, I've written one book called Humble Stumbles, which is a serious, you know, about all these sort of stories and strategies. But that took 10 years. But in three weeks, while I was in Bali, I wrote a story for teenagers called Ricky means business. And it's about a school leaver at 17 do. Is he go to university? Does he do this? And he decides to go have a gap year and starts a business and all the mistakes and all the right things and all the adventures that have happened to me happens to risk Ricky. So it's a story for teenage with lots of business, less presents.

Yeah.

Worth a read. Nice Christmas present if you're a teenager.

Right. Okay, so we've got a super quick firearound now and then I want to talk about your books.

Yeah.

Don't be sorry. This is great. And so this is the disruptors round, so you can literally be as short as you want.

Yes.

We've got three minutes left. What's the biggest disruption that's happened to you in your life?

Well, obviously being thrown in the care system at 3 years old was disruption. You know, get it going to into investment banking. From stopping being an economist and going into investment banking, which I was good at, that was a big disruption. Taking a chance, I left the government sector and went into private sector and did well. You know.

What's the biggest risk you've ever taken?

Probably that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And you know, when you don't have a family, you know, like, salary is important. I took a pay cut to go in the private sector.

Right.

So that's felt really risky at the time.

Yeah. Wow. What is the most brutal life lesson you've ever had?

Yeah. You know, having a tough time in an Orphanage. That's. And being in a. Being in special learning classes and being told you're. You're stupid. That's not. You know, that takes a long time.

Do you feel you've proven them wrong?

Yeah, I think so, yeah. Whether you really believe it, if you scratch beneath the surface, you know. You know, as I say, it's trying to get to the center of the onion for all of us, isn't it? Really believe in yourself, you know.

What's the best and worst advice you remember receiving?

I was at a church group, and he got me in this fight, like, boxing gloves, and the kids just beating the shit out of me. And, like, I just started crying. I had no idea how to fight, you know, I didn't even want to fight. I don't like, because I've been a victim of violence. I can't hit anyone, you know, and. And, you know, I was crying, and I said, I don't want to do this. Just stop, you know, And I said to him, and by then, I was into chess, and I said, I just want to play chess. And the church minister, or whoever he was, he just goes, chess will never get you anywhere, you know, And I was hired later in life by a billionaire to manage his money. And the one thing, you know, we talked about finance, but he loved chess. And I felt like going back to that church and saying, you know, yeah.

Wow, what's your biggest failure or regret?

Well, I got lots of failures, you know, 120 companies. And, you know, and knowing now, I know we talked about this, but when I do think what I've learned in business, you know, the. Some of the stupid stuff I did, you know, spending money too quickly, all that kind of stuff. Not getting discovery, you know, like, there's so many. I've made so many. You know, there's one in the book where I. Well, there's a financial one where I had a company, you know, which was worth a billion. I was a, you know, a small shareholder, but my stake was worth 40 million. I didn't sell. And then it was eventually worth a tenth of that. And I'm like, that was pretty stupid, things like that. There's a lot, you know, when you're 64, you know, you just. But you try to learn and not be too hurt.

This show's called Disruptors.

Yeah, I think, you know, okay, I like it.

What does the word disruptive mean to you?

Well, it means, you know, a lot of people think disruption is only on disrupting with a product. But as I say, you can disrupt with price and you can disrupting with a product may not even mean the product's different. But if these are for sale in London but not in Liverpool and I go and start selling those in Liverpool, that's disruption. So it's the same thing, same price but it's a different geography. So disruption can take a lot of forms. So some people call it USP but I prefer disruption.

Right. And can you tell us about your new book?

Yeah, yeah. So it arose from a series of newspaper columns I used to write for City AM 10 years ago More which did very well and it sort of goes from business but a lot of personal stuff, you know. So it's a collection of stories. It's got about nearly 50 strategies in there which are defined very clearly. Disruption and all that kind of stuff which are things I've learned and the simpler I can make them the better. But it's got 50 things in there and then it's got a series of stories which go from all sorts of things right up to like ridiculous things. Ideas I had in the middle of the night and all that kind of stuff and experiences. Believe in that one. You know playing chess and what that the way that you think and how that means for the odds of business investing in movies. You know I've had pharmaceuticals and freaking modeling. I don't know bra company you know the source company, you know I've had every sector home, house I've had been involved in airline so that. And I kind of learned what's the more interesting and instructive. So I'd see stories organized into different sections so it's easy to read. You can pick it up and jump in wherever you like. And it's called Humble Stumbles. Humble and if I get the rest of it right Humble Stumbles strategies, stories and soul searching from a serial entrepreneur. Isn't that good with the S's very strategy stories. Soul searching from a serial entrepreneur. Yes.

And obviously we can get it Amazon, Audible anywhere it's coming.

Yeah it's you can pre order it now on my website go to farley.com.

And that's f A R L E.

I G H everyone tries to spell and the kids book Ricky means business about coming out.

Okay. And both on farley.com yep.

And they're going to be on the platform soon. Great. So yeah.

And then where can we follow you for you know you sharing content on social media?

Well you know I'd never got into social media and then you know people are now telling me you've Written a book. You've got to go on social media. Well, it's also part of that imposter syndrome I'm not very good at. Well, I'm gonna. LinkedIn is good.

Yeah.

And then my, my, my. What's the other word? Instagram. I think I'll start.

You're really selling this rich.

I'll start to put stuff on Instagram.

And YouTube and, you know, that would just be. If we search Richard Farley, we'll find all.

Yeah. If you go to the website first and then. And then you can contact me or. Yeah, but the book is a good place to start. Then you'll feel like you know me.

Great.

But I should get better at this, shouldn't I?

This is like a breath of fresh air to me. I love the honesty and how you can get so good at something and still every day just struggle with your own beliefs. I think that's very inspiring.

Yeah. I wonder, do you think entrepreneurs are very confident normally?

No, not all. I think we're all carrying baggage and I think we've all got areas where we lack a sense of belief. I think we're all dealing with our own as well, aren't we?

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I. I do write that a little, that I'm probably. I am an optimist, funnily enough. I know what we talked about, but. But, you know, it's in the. It's in the book as well. But. But being slightly optimistic is very good.

I like the way you said slightly.

You can't be unrealistic where you think these are going to sell by the zillion.

That's fine. Fantasist.

Yeah, yeah, fantasist. But being slightly, which for an economist is funny because optimism means you make a mistake, means you're over calculating the odds.

Yes.

The true odds. You roll a dice. An optimist thinks they're going to get three and a half.

Yeah.

Right. They don't think three. You know. You know, like they think, you know, whatever the average is. Sorry. They think they're going to get a four. You know what I mean? So they think above the average, whereas it's technically wrong. So an economist would say you should lose out of that. You'll make a mistake. But by being slightly. And all the research. Because I find it interesting, all the research about being optimistic. Optimistic. It's a good thing.

Yeah.

And I think it's also magnetism. People who are slightly optimistic are more fun to be with.

Yes.

So they get other people around them.

Yeah.

No one wants to be with a pessimist too much, do they?

No, no, I don't think so.

Have you had anyone on the show who. You think he's a bit of a pessimist?

Well, I mean, in recent times, with everything that's gone on in the uk.

Yeah.

That, you know, people are. Yeah. They're pessimistic about the future of the uk. I actually also. I've said that a lot, but I also think there's an opportunity in that if a lot of people are leaving and you're here, you've got opportunity. I think Labour government are going to need the help of entrepreneurs in the end. I don't think they're getting enough advice. So, Yeah, I think there's. There's always. There's always an upside, I think.

Yeah. Would you ever leave the uk?

I am thinking about it.

Oh, no.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not. I've got my parents here, family here, here, businesses here and loads of property here, but I wouldn't have been thinking about it five years ago.

Yeah.

And then with lockdown and then everything else, like, I have 100 odd staff, I have 345 odd properties. It's quite a lump to move. But. But I am now building more of my businesses to be solely online, thinking more about AI and less about just local staff.

Yeah.

And it's a bit of a shame in a way, but you have to move with the times, don't you?

Golly. If someone like you, like, I'm Australian anyway, like, I'm used to, you know. But if someone like you is thinking about leaving, as I say, who's gonna move here?

Well, I mean, there. There is a bit of an exodus.

And it is sad, but golly, no, if people like you leave, then that's, you know. Yeah, that's. That's bad. Anyway, we want to finish on a positive note. Yes, London is a great place. Hopefully the labor government. The labor government in Australia worked out okay. Everyone was panicking. Yeah. But they're fine. So hopefully this is a. More Tony Blair than a. Than a. Than a. Who's the other one of the old ones. Yeah.

I hope you're right. I hope you're right, Richard. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you very much.

Yeah, thank you. Good stuff. Nice to chat.

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